[time-nuts] Clocks in the EU lose time due to frequency issue

[Mike Cunningham]

https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/j5b34k/slow-clocks-europe-serbia-kosovo-entsoe

-Mike
Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency deviations in Europe affect clocks

[Gerhard Hoffmann]

Am 07.03.2018 um 22:09 schrieb Poul-Henning Kamp:



This explains why my oven clock and the time/temperature display
on the building outside my apartment in Switzerland are six minutes
slow since January. It was a great mystery to me.

Can you get a picture of this ?  It would be wonderful to have for future 
discussions...


Does that help?

< 
https://www.flickr.com/photos/137684711@N07/38870750440/in/album-72157662535945536/ 
        >


Input to the counter is just an AC wall wart with a voltage divider to 4Vpp.
Now, the frequency has risen to above 50.02 Hz constantly. It is in the 
middle of the night after all.

They have to catch up.

BTW I have decided to build an analog phase noise tester of my own. This 
weekend

I did most of the mechanical things, but it is still in a kit state.

The pictures are to the left of the 49 Hz-Pic.
The 1-to-6 coax relays are part of the switchable lambda/4 delay line, 
so I can enforce

quadrature everywhere above 5 MHz, including unknown amplifiers etc.
Still looking for 2 more 1:6 relays.

The mixers and dividers are in stereo, so I can do cross correlation in 
the 89441A.
One of the mixer/preamp units is open, the ref oscillators will be 
MTI-260s on

my oscillator carrier board.

Have a good night,
Gerhard

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Re: [time-nuts] How to properly simulate PLLs?

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi,

On 03/07/2018 05:42 PM, Attila Kinali wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I have a small side task, where I need to design a PLL system
> As it is a bit non-conventional, I am not confident that my
> pen and paper analysis is correct and the usuall tool I use
> (Analog's ADPLLsim) doesn't cover it. So my first thought
> was to use spice to simulate the loop. But I am not sure
> how the non-linear effects of the PLL, the divider chains etc
> affect the whole system and whether a spice simulation (which
> would use a linear approximation of a few components) would
> model the system faithfully. Not to mention that this would
> be only valid simulation of the locked state and anything
> that involves the PLL being unlocked (initial lock in process,
> large phase and frequency jumps that cause unlocks) cannot
> be handled at all. Neither would it give me a proper estimate
> of the noise propagation through the system.
> 
> So, is there any canonical way how to simulate PLLs?
> If yes, what should I read? (My google foo didn't return
> anything helpful).
> 
> Thanks in advance

Now, I called Attila to ask what he was trying to do and crash coarse
him into some stuff. The discussion drifted from there.

I end up writing simulators in C, over and over again, dedicated to each
design. When dealing with phase accumulators, I use a rather simple
acceleration trick which I thought I would share. Rather than simulating
each of the cycles of the phase accumulator, I can fast forward the time
by estimate how many cycles it takes for it to wrap, so if I have the
current phase phi, and the phase accumulator wrap-point phi_w, then the
remaining phase for the cycle is phi_w - phi. Now, the steering word for
the phase accumulator phi_s is what is accumulated each cycle, so we can
figure out how many n cycles it take simply by

n = (phi_w - phi) / phi_s

As this division is assumed to be rounded down, it is actually not
sufficient to wrap the phase around, it would only give the phase just
before wrapping, so it would need one more cycle

n = (phi_w - phi) / phi_s + 1

OK, with this we can update the phase by

phi = phi + n * phi_s

By simulate as if the phase accumulator just wrapped, this method
fast-forwards the simulation and allows to simulate each update of the
PLL. You typically also update the time of the system using

T = T + n * T_s

where T_0 is the period of the phase accumulators clock, to T_0 = 1/fs
somewhere in the initiation code.

Now, typically phase and time needs to be unwrapped over a few variables
not to run into overflow issues that mess with the numerical issues of
simulation, but that is relatively trivial code.

Phase comparison typically is

V_d = phi_in - phi

The PI-loop is trivial

V_i = V_i + I * V_d
V_f = V_i + P * V_d

You want an offset frequency typically

phi_s = V_f + V_f0

Adjust I and P for dynamics as you please.

That's the basics for building a PI loop simulation.

phi will be the phase-state and V_i the frequency state of the loop. The
phase-state is however best viewed as V_d, the detected phase difference.

Enjoy.

Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] Ultra low power RTC

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

> On Mar 7, 2018, at 6:33 PM, Mike Cook  wrote:
> 
> 
>> Le 7 mars 2018 à 11:10, Attila Kinali  a écrit :
>> 
>> On Tue, 6 Mar 2018 21:57:32 -0500
>> Bob kb8tq  wrote:
>> 
>>> Assuming you are going to run it off a battery. What’s the self discharge
>>> rate on a reasonable battery? 
>> 
>> With supply currents below 100nA you can assume that you are likely
>> to be limited by the self-discharge using coin sized LiMnO2 cells
>> (e.g. a CR2032 is specced in the order of 100-300nA self-discharge).
>> For the smaller cells, you have to check which one is larger, but
>> they are of the same order of magnitude.
> 
> This is interesting. When you talk of self discharge, is there any way of 
> harnessing that. Is that what the chip manufactures are doing?

Self discharge = current flowing through the internal elements of the cell 
(plus 
other long term degradation effects).

Bob

> 
>> 
>> 
>>  Attila Kinali
>> -- 
>> It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
>> the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
>> use without that foundation.
>>-- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
>> ___
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> 
> "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who 
> have not got it. »
> George Bernard Shaw
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] How to properly simulate PLLs?

[Charles Steinmetz]

Attila wrote:


my first thought
was to use spice to simulate the loop. But I am not sure
how the non-linear effects of the PLL, the divider chains etc
affect the whole system and whether a spice simulation (which
would use a linear approximation of a few components) would
model the system faithfully. Not to mention that this would
be only valid simulation of the locked state and anything
that involves the PLL being unlocked (initial lock in process,
large phase and frequency jumps that cause unlocks) cannot
be handled at all. Neither would it give me a proper estimate
of the noise propagation through the system.


I have had good results with Spice, including simulating high-order loop 
filters and staged (stepped) loop time constants (for acquisition/run). 
My simulations include an initial unlocked condition, acquisition, loop 
dynamics tests that progress to driving the loop out of lock, and 
reacquisition. I use behavioral models for digital dividers. I have 
working models of regenerative dividers and mixers, which can be 
imported as subcircuits when needed.


Test loop dynamics by putting a step function (or other function of 
interest) into the loop. Stepping the reference frequency is an easy 
method, but it can be done any number of ways depending on the need. I 
also use sine, ramp, and filtered noise functions to simulate drift, etc.


I find that the results are well within "simulation expectation."

Best regards,

Charles


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Re: [time-nuts] Ultra low power RTC

[Attila Kinali]

On Thu, 8 Mar 2018 00:33:58 +0100
Mike Cook  wrote:

> This is interesting. When you talk of self discharge, is there any way
> of harnessing that. Is that what the chip manufactures are doing?

No. It's a chemical reaction inside the cell. The energy is turned
into heat directly and never leaves the cell in a usable form.

Attila Kinali

-- 
The bad part of Zurich is where the degenerates
throw DARK chocolate at you.
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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency deviations in Europe affect clocks

[Attila Kinali]

On Wed, 07 Mar 2018 22:01:25 +0100
Pete Stephenson  wrote:

> Fortunately the Swiss rail system doesn't, as far as I know, use powerline 
> frequency for timekeeping, even at remote stations, so all the railway 
> clocks are still running properly. 

They used to have a central HBG receiver at all train stations,
with a few exceptions where reception was bad (there, they got a
special permission to use DCF77 instead). I have no idea what
they use these days for synchronization.

Attila Kinali

-- 
The bad part of Zurich is where the degenerates
throw DARK chocolate at you.
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Re: [time-nuts] Ultra low power RTC

[Mike Cook]

> Le 7 mars 2018 à 11:10, Attila Kinali  a écrit :
> 
> On Tue, 6 Mar 2018 21:57:32 -0500
> Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> 
>> Assuming you are going to run it off a battery. What’s the self discharge
>> rate on a reasonable battery? 
> 
> With supply currents below 100nA you can assume that you are likely
> to be limited by the self-discharge using coin sized LiMnO2 cells
> (e.g. a CR2032 is specced in the order of 100-300nA self-discharge).
> For the smaller cells, you have to check which one is larger, but
> they are of the same order of magnitude.

This is interesting. When you talk of self discharge, is there any way of 
harnessing that. Is that what the chip manufactures are doing?

> 
> 
>   Attila Kinali
> -- 
> It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
> the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
> use without that foundation.
> -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
> ___
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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who 
have not got it. »
George Bernard Shaw

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Re: [time-nuts] TymServe TS2100 dead power supply

[Hal Murray]

k6...@comcast.net said:
> RANDOM QUESTION -- does anybody know of software to *generate* IRIG time
> code? Something in C that's adaptable to a modern micro would be good. In
> something like a Raspberry Pi 3, IRIG generation would make a nice addition
> to Lady Heather... 

Look at util/tg.c or util/tg2.c in the ntp package.

Download here:
  http://support.ntp.org/bin/view/Main/SoftwareDownloads


-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.



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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency deviations in Europe affect clocks

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message 
<1520456485.3091982.1295242984.442b4...@webmail.messagingengine.com>, Pete 
Stephenson
 writes:
>On Wed, Mar 7, 2018, at 9:28 PM, Mark Sims wrote:
>> A more detailed explanation of what is happening:
>> 
>> https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/03/ovens-across-europe-display-the-wrong-time-due-to-a-serbia-kosovo-grid-dispute/
>
>This explains why my oven clock and the time/temperature display
>on the building outside my apartment in Switzerland are six minutes
>slow since January. It was a great mystery to me.

Can you get a picture of this ?  It would be wonderful to have for future 
discussions...

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency deviations in Europe affect clocks

[Pete Stephenson]

On Wed, Mar 7, 2018, at 9:28 PM, Mark Sims wrote:
> A more detailed explanation of what is happening:
> 
> https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/03/ovens-across-europe-display-the-wrong-time-due-to-a-serbia-kosovo-grid-dispute/

This explains why my oven clock and the time/temperature display on the 
building outside my apartment in Switzerland are six minutes slow since 
January. It was a great mystery to me. 

Fortunately the Swiss rail system doesn't, as far as I know, use powerline 
frequency for timekeeping, even at remote stations, so all the railway clocks 
are still running properly. 

-- 
Pete Stephenson
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[time-nuts] Frequency deviations in Europe affect clocks

[Mark Sims]

A more detailed explanation of what is happening:

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/03/ovens-across-europe-display-the-wrong-time-due-to-a-serbia-kosovo-grid-dispute/
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Re: [time-nuts] TymServe TS2100 dead power supply

[paul swed]

I have built an irig b encoder. Irig uses a 1 KHZ amplitude modulated
signal. I can't remember now if it was pulse width modulation also. But it
used a small processor and todays arduino is many time more effective at
the job.
That said I used a modulator using a small xtal controlled divider to
produce the carrier. It was a Epson chip and even the xtal was built in and
a analog CMOS gate as the modulator.
Its actually fairly simple to create.
Then it was a case of reading out the clock in the correct format.
Regards
Paul.
WB8TSL

On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 3:05 PM, Mark Sims  wrote:

> I once looked into adding IRIG generation to Lady Heather.   I never came
> up with a reliable / robust way to do it.  It could possibly be done with
> some of the Windows multi-media support, but that would leave the
> Linux/macOS/FreeBSD people in the dark.
>
> I just added TS2100 support to Lady Heather... but it only reads the time
> code output string and drives the clock displays.   I don't have a TS2100
> to properly test it, but it works when fed with a simulation file.
>
> 
>
> > RANDOM QUESTION -- does anybody know of software to *generate* IRIG time
> code? Something in C that's adaptable to a modern micro would be good. In
> something like a Raspberry Pi 3, IRIG generation would make a nice addition
> to Lady Heather...
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[time-nuts] TymServe TS2100 dead power supply

[Mark Sims]

I once looked into adding IRIG generation to Lady Heather.   I never came up 
with a reliable / robust way to do it.  It could possibly be done with some of 
the Windows multi-media support, but that would leave the Linux/macOS/FreeBSD 
people in the dark.

I just added TS2100 support to Lady Heather... but it only reads the time code 
output string and drives the clock displays.   I don't have a TS2100 to 
properly test it, but it works when fed with a simulation file.



> RANDOM QUESTION -- does anybody know of software to *generate* IRIG time 
> code? Something in C that's adaptable to a modern micro would be good. In 
> something like a Raspberry Pi 3, IRIG generation would make a nice addition 
> to Lady Heather...
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[time-nuts] Ultra low power RTC

[Mark Sims]

A friend of mine is a product engineer for one of the largest (the largest?) 
makers of RTC chips.  He groans about the (rather pointless) quest for the 
lowest power RTC chips.   Making robust, stable, accurate oscillators that run 
at nanowatts is a losing proposition.   At those levels external factors can 
wreak havoc.  And he blames crystal makers for a lot of problems... batch X 
works great,  batch Y is wonky,  batch Z is utter crap.   Pretty much the same 
for load capacitors.   Eventually users come to their senses and go with a 
robust, slightly higher power device.
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Re: [time-nuts] TymServe TS2100 dead power supply

[Bob Martin]

Many thanks for the replies on this one.

Before I made the first post, I'd pulled the supply, given it a visual and 
nasal inspection, checked the outputs for shorts, and powered it up on the 
bench. Dead (and dead quiet, not even the tick-tick-tick of a switcher with a 
shorted output).

In my perusal of the archives, someone observed that it was a standard Astec 
LPT-42 supply. Lo and behold, a label on the primary filter cap of my dead 
switcher identifies it as an ASTEC LPT42.

I looked around -- Mouser and Digi-Key were within $1 of each other. Not too 
surprising, actually, pretty much ALL the sellers on eBay wanted more for units 
of dubious heritage than Mouser and Digi-Key wanted for a new one.

Already had some bits and pieces I needed from Digi Key so I added a new LPT-42 
on to the order.

New supply arrived. Installed, connected power, turned it on and things light 
up. Pulled the fuse out of the old supply to save and tossed the old supply in 
the bin. Last time I got a good electrical shock (if there is such a thing) was 
from a faulty switching power supply; another reason to diagnose this one with 
my wallet!

Back in operation again. Yes, I *still* have to deal with the old GPS module 
and the issues it creates. But my TS2100 is back on the air, driving my IRIG 
displays and providing 10 MHz to various pieces of equipment.

RANDOM QUESTION -- does anybody know of software to *generate* IRIG time code? 
Something in C that's adaptable to a modern micro would be good. In something 
like a Raspberry Pi 3, IRIG generation would make a nice addition to Lady 
Heather...

cheers and 73,

Bob K6RTM

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Re: [time-nuts] Ultra low power RTC

[Attila Kinali]

On Wed, 7 Mar 2018 12:06:43 -0500
Bob kb8tq  wrote:

> Ok, so energy harvesting from Lazy Bob in his arm chair makes a button cell 
> look like a giant power source ….. 

Giant is an understatement. For comparison, a single brain cell uses
approximately 0.5nW of power. A human body dissipates something around
100 to 200W of heat, constantly but this is going a bit too OT I guess :-)

Attila Kinali

-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
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Re: [time-nuts] How to properly simulate PLLs?

[Bob Darby]

http://www.aholme.co.uk/Frac2/Simulate.htm

might be useful.

bob

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts  On Behalf Of Attila Kinali
Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2018 11:43 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
Subject: [time-nuts] How to properly simulate PLLs?

Hi,

I have a small side task, where I need to design a PLL system As it is a bit 
non-conventional, I am not confident that my pen and paper analysis is correct 
and the usuall tool I use (Analog's ADPLLsim) doesn't cover it. So my first 
thought was to use spice to simulate the loop. But I am not sure how the 
non-linear effects of the PLL, the divider chains etc affect the whole system 
and whether a spice simulation (which would use a linear approximation of a few 
components) would model the system faithfully. Not to mention that this would 
be only valid simulation of the locked state and anything that involves the PLL 
being unlocked (initial lock in process, large phase and frequency jumps that 
cause unlocks) cannot be handled at all. Neither would it give me a proper 
estimate of the noise propagation through the system.

So, is there any canonical way how to simulate PLLs?
If yes, what should I read? (My google foo didn't return anything helpful).

Thanks in advance

Attila Kinali

--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All the 
prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no use without 
that foundation.
 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson 
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[time-nuts] Frequency deviations in Europe affect clocks

[Leo Bodnar]

This has been making rounds for quite awhile, I am surprised it has not been 
picked up here.
Leo
==
Frequency deviations in Continental Europe including impact on electric clocks 
steered by frequency
Continental European Power System has been experiencing, since mid-January, 
continuous significant power deviations due to shortage in supply from one 
transmission system operator of the interconnected system.  All actions are 
taken by the TSOs of Continental Europe and by ENTSO-E to resolve the situation.

The power deviations have led to a slight drop in the electric frequency. This 
in turn has also affected those electric clocks that are steered by the 
frequency of the power system and not by a quartz crystal: they show currently 
a delay of 5 minutes. TSOs will set up a compensation program to correct the 
time in the future.

https://www.entsoe.eu/news-events/announcements/announcements-archive/Pages/News/Frequency-deviations-in-Continental-Europe-including-impact-on-electric-clocks-steered-by-frequency.aspx

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Re: [time-nuts] Ultra low power RTC

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

Ok, so energy harvesting from Lazy Bob in his arm chair makes a button cell 
look like a giant power source ….. 

You likely aren’t going to win any ADEV competitions with that oscillator. They
did go to a *lot* of effort to squeeze out that last nano watt.

Bob

> On Mar 7, 2018, at 11:47 AM, Tom Van Baak  wrote:
> 
>> Since we don’t often *need* the smallest cell made *and* we’re probably 
>> talking lifetime of the cell….. does 22 na vs 33 na matter?
> 
> It gets even more amazing ...
> 
> "A 1.5 nW, 32.768 kHz XTAL Oscillator Operational From a 0.3 V Supply"
> https://web.northeastern.edu/ecl/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/xtal.pdf
> 
> /tvb
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Re: [time-nuts] Ultra low power RTC

[Tom Van Baak]

> Since we don’t often *need* the smallest cell made *and* we’re probably 
> talking lifetime of the cell….. does 22 na vs 33 na matter?

It gets even more amazing ...

"A 1.5 nW, 32.768 kHz XTAL Oscillator Operational From a 0.3 V Supply"
https://web.northeastern.edu/ecl/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/xtal.pdf

/tvb
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[time-nuts] How to properly simulate PLLs?

[Attila Kinali]

Hi,

I have a small side task, where I need to design a PLL system
As it is a bit non-conventional, I am not confident that my
pen and paper analysis is correct and the usuall tool I use
(Analog's ADPLLsim) doesn't cover it. So my first thought
was to use spice to simulate the loop. But I am not sure
how the non-linear effects of the PLL, the divider chains etc
affect the whole system and whether a spice simulation (which
would use a linear approximation of a few components) would
model the system faithfully. Not to mention that this would
be only valid simulation of the locked state and anything
that involves the PLL being unlocked (initial lock in process,
large phase and frequency jumps that cause unlocks) cannot
be handled at all. Neither would it give me a proper estimate
of the noise propagation through the system.

So, is there any canonical way how to simulate PLLs?
If yes, what should I read? (My google foo didn't return
anything helpful).

Thanks in advance

Attila Kinali

-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
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Re: [time-nuts] Ultra low power RTC

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

I’ve designed watch guts (long ago). It was at a time that you used 
an analog (motor) movement if you wanted really low power. The CMOS
/ LCD’s of that era were power hogs by comparison. 

What you can put in a small / thin  watch isn’t what you would use on a 
RTC board. My suspicion is that the leakage from a number of sources will 
indeed dominate the actual power consumption in a random build
sort of application. (At least compared to 10’s of nano amps of power
into the chip). 

Bob

> On Mar 7, 2018, at 11:03 AM, Attila Kinali  wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 7 Mar 2018 08:27:00 -0500
> Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> 
>> Since we don’t often *need* the smallest cell made *and* we’re probably 
>> talking lifetime of the cell….. does 22 na vs 33 na matter?
> 
> Not really. It starts to matter when you are space limited and don't
> have space for a CR2032.
> 
> At this level, though, every tiny bit of leakage matters. Finger prints,
> dust, humidity, FR4... Going below 1µA in current consumption is like
> going below 10^-12 in frequency stability, suddenly 1M is a low resistance.
> 
>> Based on the previous data on the chip, I think I would just run the crystal
>> all the time. 
> 
> The the watches (quartz with analog dials) I have run >5 years
> on their batteries, an I am pretty sure they don't have a CR2032.
> And at least one of them must have a TCXO.
> 
> 
>   Attila Kinali
> -- 
> It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
> the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
> use without that foundation.
> -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
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Re: [time-nuts] Ultra low power RTC

[Attila Kinali]

On Wed, 7 Mar 2018 08:27:00 -0500
Bob kb8tq  wrote:

> Since we don’t often *need* the smallest cell made *and* we’re probably 
> talking lifetime of the cell….. does 22 na vs 33 na matter?

Not really. It starts to matter when you are space limited and don't
have space for a CR2032.

At this level, though, every tiny bit of leakage matters. Finger prints,
dust, humidity, FR4... Going below 1µA in current consumption is like
going below 10^-12 in frequency stability, suddenly 1M is a low resistance.
 
> Based on the previous data on the chip, I think I would just run the crystal
> all the time. 

The the watches (quartz with analog dials) I have run >5 years
on their batteries, an I am pretty sure they don't have a CR2032.
And at least one of them must have a TCXO.


Attila Kinali
-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
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Re: [time-nuts] ADEV data for mechanical clocks

[Tom Van Baak]

> Does anybody have any ADEV data for mechanical clocks?  (I didn't find any by 
> google, but there was a lot of noise so maybe I missed something.)

Hal,

It's often buried in out-of-print horological books or magazines / journals / 
articles that google may or may not index.

I have some ADEV examples here:

http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/m21/ -- the classic Navy chronometer
http://www.leapsecond.com/pend/shortt/  -- see Stable32 / Timelab plots
http://www.leapsecond.com/pend/clockb/  -- go to technical links
http://www.leapsecond.com/hsn2006/  -- see dream pendulum paper

> I'd expect a watch to slow down slightly as the spring unwinds.  That 
> probably doesn't apply to clocks driven by weights.

Clockmakers are clever and implement methods to keep constant power:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusee_(horology)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maintaining_power

Photo:
https://www.wired.com/wp-content/uploads/archive/images/slideshow/2007/12/gallery_time_hackers/disk.jpg
via https://www.wired.com/2008/01/gallery-time-hackers/

Diagrams:
http://www.hamiltonparts.com/m21-6.jpg
http://www.hamiltonparts.com/m21-8.jpg
via  http://www.hamiltonparts.com/hamilton.htm

Additional photos:
https://chronometerbookdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2017/11/broken-chain-labelled1.jpg
via https://chronometerbook.com/2017/11/

https://chronometerbookdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/attach-to-fusee-1.jpg
via https://chronometerbook.com/2017/02/13/27-fusee-chain-substitute/

/tvb

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Re: [time-nuts] WWV or Net Clock controlled oscillator

[Hal Murray]

hol...@hotmail.com said:
> The university that I hang out at has a clock tower with a full set of
> bells.   ...

Stanford has a clock tower.

Searching YouTube for >Stanford Clock Tower< will find several short videos.

It's in a roughly 10 ft square room with big windows on all 4 sides.  I stop 
to admire it when I'm in the area with spare time.   It's all mechanical.  A 
wonderful contraption.  Somebody winds it each day or two.  The mechanism is 
down at ground level where it is easy to see.  Cables go up to the bells.


-- 
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Re: [time-nuts] Ultra low power RTC

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

Since we don’t often *need* the smallest cell made *and* we’re probably 
talking lifetime of the cell….. does 22 na vs 33 na matter?

…. hmmm ….

CR2032 ( which is the smallest I would use) is rated at 0.22 AH. 

A nano amp for a year is about 8 uA hours a year. 

So 30 na for 20 years is 0.005 AH 

Indeed, the self discharge of the cell (or life or whatever you want to call it)
will probably get you before the 30 na drain will. 

Based on the previous data on the chip, I think I would just run the crystal
all the time. 

Bob

> On Mar 6, 2018, at 11:22 PM, Mark Sims  wrote:
> 
> Probably 20+ years for a lithium coin cell... basically the shelf life of the 
> cell.  I have a card of 24 year old CR-2032's that are still above 3V, and no 
> sign of leakage.
> 
> BTW, never handle a coin cell (particularly in watch applications) with your 
> fingers... your grubby fingerprints are rather conductive and can discharge a 
> cell surprisingly quickly.   
> 
> Also note the clock chip has 512 bytes of RAM in it.
> 
> 
> 
>> Assuming you are going to run it off a battery. What’s the self discharge
> rate on a reasonable battery? 
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 107BR Ski Question

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

The oscillators were tested and sorted at the end of the manufacturing line. 
Everything got
checked for aging. It’s not clear that everything got detail tested for ADEV. 
The suspicion is that 
they did enough ADEV to get the few tight(er) spec units they needed. 

Next layer is that these tests were done a *long* time ago. The characteristics 
of OCXO’s do change
with time. What was once a tight spec unit may not be so today. What was once a 
bit noisy may be
quieter now. 

I would not worry a lot about the different dash numbers on decades old 10811’s.

Bob

> On Mar 6, 2018, at 11:57 PM, Perry Sandeen via time-nuts  
> wrote:
> 
> List,
> In getting documentation together for my HP 107BR I discovered the manuals I 
> was able to aquire were for prefix 333.
> My unit prefix is 708.  Does anyone have that prefix schematics or an errata 
> sheet?  Or does the 708 prefix just designate another factory run?
> TIA
> Perrier
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Re: [time-nuts] HP Xtal Osc Question

[David G. McGaw]

There are several models of the oscillator that have been made.  The 
-60111 was common as the high-stability option in many HP counters and 
signal generators.  The differences are documented on page 79 of the 
10811 data sheet available on the Keysight website: 



David N1HAC


On 3/6/18 11:50 PM, Perry Sandeen via time-nuts wrote:

List,
When perusing HP xtal oscillators on ebay I noticed some cases were marked HP 
10811 and the same appearing unit was marked HP 10811-60111.
Are both the same for TN purposes?
If so what are the differences?
Regards,
Perrier
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 107BR Ski Question

[Artek Manuals]

Perrier

The manual we offer on our WEB site is centered on serial Prefix 512 
with change sheets up to serial prefix 708. There are several changes, 
between the 512 and 708, different configuration of the A1Y1 , Coax 
changes, Powers Supply changes. Many many changes in circuit details 
between 333 and 708.


As point of note HP serial number prefixes are Engineering Change Dates 
not Production Run Dates. 708 is 8th week of 1967..but a 708 unit could 
have been manufactured months or even years after that date


-DC
manu...@artekmanuals.com
www.ArtekManuals.com

On 3/6/2018 11:57 PM, Perry Sandeen via time-nuts wrote:

List,
In getting documentation together for my HP 107BR I discovered the manuals I 
was able to aquire were for prefix 333.
My unit prefix is 708.  Does anyone have that prefix schematics or an errata 
sheet?  Or does the 708 prefix just designate another factory run?
TIA
Perrier
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--
Dave
manu...@artekmanuals.com
www.ArtekManuals.com


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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Re: [time-nuts] HP Xtal Osc Question

[Bruce Griffiths]

See final pages in:

http://www.hparchive.com/Manuals/HP-10811AB-Manual.pdf

The 60111 variant is a lower spec version intended for use in counters.

Bruce

> 
> On 07 March 2018 at 17:50 Perry Sandeen via time-nuts 
>  wrote:
> 
> List,
> When perusing HP xtal oscillators on ebay I noticed some cases were 
> marked HP 10811 and the same appearing unit was marked HP 10811-60111.
> Are both the same for TN purposes?
> If so what are the differences?
> Regards,
> Perrier
> 
> ___
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> 
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Re: [time-nuts] ADEV data for mechanical clocks

[Attila Kinali]

On Tue, 06 Mar 2018 21:10:00 -0800
Hal Murray  wrote:

> Does anybody have any ADEV data for mechanical clocks?  (I didn't find any by 
> google, but there was a lot of noise so maybe I missed something.)

How about Tom's Powers of Ten?
http://www.leapsecond.com/ten/clock-powers-of-ten-tvb.pdf

Attila Kinali

-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
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Re: [time-nuts] Ultra low power RTC

[Attila Kinali]

On Tue, 6 Mar 2018 21:57:32 -0500
Bob kb8tq  wrote:

> Assuming you are going to run it off a battery. What’s the self discharge
> rate on a reasonable battery? 

With supply currents below 100nA you can assume that you are likely
to be limited by the self-discharge using coin sized LiMnO2 cells
(e.g. a CR2032 is specced in the order of 100-300nA self-discharge).
For the smaller cells, you have to check which one is larger, but
they are of the same order of magnitude.


Attila Kinali
-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
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[time-nuts] HP 107BR Ski Question

[Perry Sandeen via time-nuts]

List,
In getting documentation together for my HP 107BR I discovered the manuals I 
was able to aquire were for prefix 333.
My unit prefix is 708.  Does anyone have that prefix schematics or an errata 
sheet?  Or does the 708 prefix just designate another factory run?
TIA
Perrier
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[time-nuts] ADEV data for mechanical clocks

[Hal Murray]

> So, where's the ADEV plot for Bill's Q1,Q2, and Q3?

Does anybody have any ADEV data for mechanical clocks?  (I didn't find any by 
google, but there was a lot of noise so maybe I missed something.)

I'd expect a watch to slow down slightly as the spring unwinds.  That 
probably doesn't apply to clocks driven by weights.

-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.



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[time-nuts] HP Xtal Osc Question

[Perry Sandeen via time-nuts]

List,
When perusing HP xtal oscillators on ebay I noticed some cases were marked HP 
10811 and the same appearing unit was marked HP 10811-60111.
Are both the same for TN purposes?  
If so what are the differences?
Regards,
Perrier
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[time-nuts] Ultra low power RTC

[Mark Sims]

Probably 20+ years for a lithium coin cell... basically the shelf life of the 
cell.  I have a card of 24 year old CR-2032's that are still above 3V, and no 
sign of leakage.

BTW, never handle a coin cell (particularly in watch applications) with your 
fingers... your grubby fingerprints are rather conductive and can discharge a 
cell surprisingly quickly.   

Also note the clock chip has 512 bytes of RAM in it.



> Assuming you are going to run it off a battery. What’s the self discharge
rate on a reasonable battery? 
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