Re: [time-nuts] Tektronix FCA3103 ADEV measurement tau setting problem

[Tom Knox]

Actually the CNT-91 and FCA31-3 are the same, the 300 and 400MHz are just 
claims, both are not very useful above 300MHz but de-rated can measure 400MHz.

Cheers;

Thomas Knox


From: time-nuts  on behalf of Björn 

Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2018 2:03 PM
To: gandal...@aol.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Tektronix FCA3103 ADEV measurement tau setting problem

If this is a badged CNT-91...

This is from the current spec.

”The CNT-91 features a frequency range of 0.001Hz to 400 MHz standard with 
options to 3, 8, 14 and 20 GHz. ”

The counter was designed while Pendulum still did R in Stockholm - not very 
far from Magnus domains. Magnus certainly knows how to do proper ADEV with that 
counter.

—

 Björn

Sent from my iPhone

> On 29 May 2018, at 20:58, gandalfg8--- via time-nuts  
> wrote:
>
>
> I have a Tek FCA3103 300 MHz counter that measures ADEV
>
> as a built in function.  When I bring up the settings
> menu for the measurement, it has an entry window for
> "tau" (the averaging time, IE "sigma sub y of tau").
> It defaults to 200 ms.  I can enter larger values and
> ADEV gives reasonably results.  However, if I enter
> smaller values, even 199 ms, I don't get any error
> on the display, but I get clearly erroneous
> results for ADEV. I read the manual and cannot find
> anything to the effect that the instrument doesn't work
> for less than 200 ms.
>
> BTW, I asked Tek "customer no support" about it and
> they were clueless.
> ---
>
>
>
> Hi Rick,
>
>
> The Tek FCA3100 is a rebadged Pendulum CNT91 and Pendulum became part of 
> Spectracom.
> Unless I'm missing something, the FCA3103 is the FCA3100 with 3GHz input C 
> fitted.
>
>
> I've also found that Tektronix tech support seemed to know very little about 
> these but, in the past anyway, found Spectracom in the UK to be very helpful. 
> I'm not sure about the current status as Spectracom now seems to redirect to 
> Pendulum as a separate company again.
>
>
>
> Unfortunately, I can't help with your enquiry, and am also somewhat confused, 
> as I don't recall seeing a settings entry window for "tau" as a settings 
> option for the built in ADEV function. I take it you do mean the built in 
> option as in displaying results on the built in screen, or are you also using 
> some external software?
>
>
> If you are just usin the built in display I'd be interested to hear what 
> firmware version your FCA3103 is showing in the "About" screen
>
>
>
> My FCA3100 is showing the firmware version as 1.28s of 25 Aug 2010, which 
> seems to match the latest available Tektronix download but I'm wondering now 
> if there are unlisted updates.
>
>
>
> Nigel, GM8PZR
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] New GNSS chipsets

[Tom Knox]

Hi All;

I think the real break through is using these different constellations and 
their different frequencies and looking at carrier phase verses timing 
elements. This should allow the removal of propagation delay.

Cheers;

Thomas Knox
act...@hotmail.com



From: time-nuts  on behalf of Magnus Danielson 

Sent: Sunday, April 1, 2018 2:40 PM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Cc: mag...@rubidium.se
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] New GNSS chipsets

Joe,

I'm not sure I had much influence, but I at least try to advocate for it
to become a good market, so hopefully it will be affordable. It has
actually been affordable for quite some time, so going multifrequency
should be the next step and with that the benefits.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 04/01/2018 07:04 PM, Joseph Gray wrote:
> Magnus,
>
> When I can buy one of these new, multi-frequency receivers, I'll remember
> to thank you :-) I wonder if any of the three will be available this year.
> The Broadcom chipset in phones will be nice, but I'd also like a standalone
> module from anyone. More fun stuff to play with.
>
> Joe Gray
> W5JG
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 1, 2018 at 3:15 AM, Magnus Danielson > wrote:
>
>> Hi Joe,
>>
>> On 03/31/2018 01:16 PM, Joseph Gray wrote:
>>> I've been reading announcements by Broadcom, uBlox and ST Micro for new
>>> chipsets that will use L1, L2, L5 to provide significantly more precise
>>> positioning for every day applications like cell phone, autonomous
>>> vehicles, UAV, etc. Broadcom is claiming 30 cm, uBlox just says
>> "centimeter
>>> level". The next few years ought to be very interesting, as these
>> chipsets
>>> become available in consumer products.
>>
>> I have advocated for receivers able to handle multiple frequencies and
>> multiple GNSS for some time, sneaking it into documents, so there should
>> be some preparations for this now.
>>
>> The benefit is naturally redundancy, but also higher precision.
>>
>> Natural I would enjoy cheap multi-frequency receivers myself, but I
>> would never admit that this would be a reason for advocating it. ;-)
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Magnus
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[time-nuts] Has anyone played with a SRS FS740?

[Tom Knox]

Hi All;

Has anyone had hands on experience with a FS740 or any thoughts in general? 
Seem like a really nice box.

Thanks;

Thomas Knox

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Re: [time-nuts] Need a Watch Recommendation

[Tom Knox]

I think what makes the IWatch unique is it has an option that makes it a 
standalone cell phone. With this new option it no longer need to be in 
proximity of you IPhone. You leave the IPhone at home and have a fully function 
cell phone on your wrist. The only hitch is they will not let you active a 
watch separately, it must be tied to you IPhone number.

Garmin also make some nice sport watches that a fully functional GPS receivers. 
Everything but a one PPS and 10MHz output.

Cheers;

Thomas Knox





From: time-nuts  on behalf of Nick Sayer via 
time-nuts 
Sent: Monday, March 5, 2018 10:13 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Need a Watch Recommendation

Lots of folks have chimed in on this thread, but I will just add that the Apple 
watch is an NTP client. I’m extremely happy with mine, but the reasons I am are 
far, far wider than its accuracy (which I can only judge by eye, which is an 
extraordinary low bar for a Time Nut).

> On Mar 4, 2018, at 10:38 PM, Don Murray via time-nuts  
> wrote:
>
> Hello Time Nuts...
>
>
>
> After 6 years of no troubles, in sync with WWV any
> hour of the day, flawless transfer between
> standard and daylight time my Stauer Titanium
> Atomic wristwatch bite the dust a year ago.
>
> Since then, Stauer has sent me three replacements,
> each with some type of problem.
>
> So it looks as if I am in need of a new wristwatch,
> which will give me some kind of time accuracy.
>
> So, Time Nuts...  any suggestions or recommendations?
>
> TNX
>
> 73
> Don
> W4WJ
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Re: [time-nuts] PRS10 Information and help needed

[Tom Knox]

Hi Arnold;

If you compare the 10MHz to another standard it will most likely show the 
quartz is in free run. Since quartz acts as a fly wheel for the rubidium the 
output would look good from all other aspects (Amplitude and Spectral Purity). 
So it appear to me you are experiencing an issue with the Rubidium Section.

I hope that helps.

Cheer;

Thomas Knox




From: time-nuts  on behalf of Arnold Tibus 

Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2018 11:47 AM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] PRS10 Information and help needed

Hello fellow timenuts,

for my old PRS10 I need some information and help with technical
informations.
I have this item bought quite some years ago and I have manufactured an
interface cable with the special connector last year. Did work fine.
Taken out of storage I do get anymore the lock and PPS signal out.
The 10 MHz output does look very good, the unloaded sine voltage is 2.8
Vpp and the frequency is very precise and stable very close to the
trimble thunderbolt GPS-out signal at abt. 10E-11.
In the annex you can see the data output with more delailed info.
Can somebody tell me more, is the life at the end and what and how can
be done to revitalize this nice time machine? How much time more is
expectable?

kind regards,

Arnold
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Re: [time-nuts] Beware the Casio WaveCeptor analog watch

[Tom Knox]

Hi All;

I have has a Citizen as well and it has been bullet proof skiing, cycling and 
such well over five years. I did a quick search because when I purchased it was 
really pricey but a quick search and Zales has what appears the exact model:

Analog Citizen Eco-Drive® Skyhawk Atomic Titanium Solar 200M Flight Chronograph 
Watch (Model: JY0010-50E) $233 shipped. I know that is a bit more expensive but 
it is amazing.

Cheers;


Thomas Knox




From: time-nuts  on behalf of Bob kb8tq 

Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2018 6:30 PM
To: swith...@alum.mit.edu; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Beware the Casio WaveCeptor analog watch

Hi

I’ve had the Citizen “Atomic” analog watches for quite a few years. The solar 
powered
versions have gotten a bit better over the years. They nave never had a “hand 
slip”
problem that I have noticed.

Bob

> On Feb 25, 2018, at 6:52 PM, Skip Withrow  wrote:
>
> Hello Time-Nuts,
>
> For many years I owned a Casio WaveCeptor digital watch and like it a
> lot.  The down side was that the battery had to be replaced every few
> years.  And since I had worn it for many years, the plastic case and
> crystal had taken quite a beating.  Finally, the pin holder that
> secures the band broke - end of watch (except as a 'pocket' watch).
>
> So, I went out and bought a solar powered analog version of the
> WaveCeptor (and vowed not to take it caving).  However, several months
> ago I needed to take an action at an exact time (not ebay) which was a
> miserable fail.  I found that the watch was over a minute off.
>
> I went back and explored the watch manual and found that there is a
> procedure to sync the minute and second hands.  I did this and after
> syncing to WWVB all was good.
>
> Now, a couple of months later I needed the precise time again.
> However I checked my watch before hand and found that it was 8 seconds
> off.  Ahrg!
>
> It appears that the stepper motor position of the second and minute
> hands can be jarred out of sync with normal wear bumps and shocks.
> The trouble is you don't know when it happens (unless you check your
> watch against a trusted source often).
>
> Now I'm seriously considering buying a solar version of the digital
> watch to get rid of the problem.
>
> Regards,
> Skip Withrow
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[time-nuts] Tourbillon: Recalling and honoring our heritage

[Tom Knox]

Hi All;

Happy New Years - This may be common knowledge but before Quartz it was 
difficult for a watch to keep accurate time in a watch vs a pendulum clock due 
to motion and gravity.

Then several centuries ago the Tourbillon movement was design by a Time-Nut 
like ourselves. I my humble opinion it is still one of the most amazing feats 
of engineering ever. And if you are lucky enough to own one you could trade it 
for a Time-Nuts dream lab today.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourbillon

[https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4e/Stuhrling_Tourbillon_Movement.ogv/1200px--Stuhrling_Tourbillon_Movement.ogv.jpg]<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourbillon>

Tourbillon - Wikipedia<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourbillon>
en.wikipedia.org
In horology, a tourbillon (/ t ʊər ˈ b ɪ l j ən /; French: [tuʁbijɔ̃] 
"whirlwind") is an addition to the mechanics of a watch escapement. Developed 
around ...

Peace;

Tom Knox





From: time-nuts <time-nuts-boun...@febo.com> on behalf of Jeremy Nichols 
<jn6...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 3, 2018 9:56 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Recalling and honoring our heritage

Really enjoyable, thank you for the link!

Jeremy


On Wed, Jan 3, 2018 at 7:03 AM William H. Fite <omni...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I was chided in somewhat patronizing terms by one long-time member of this
> group a while back for "wasting our time with obsolete crap that no one
> cares about."
>
> Brace yourselves, I'm going to do it again.
>
> Attached is a video (one of a series) documenting the design and
> construction of mechanical watches. My sarcastic critic notwithstanding, it
> is a mistake to disregard our horological heritage. This is from whence we
> came. In a very real way, this is who we are.
>
> Take a look at what can be accomplished with gears, wheels, and springs. It
> is a quest for perfection every bit bit as serious and dedicated as the
> quest for electronic clocks with accuracy in the attasecond range.
>
> Or just mutter under your breath and smack the delete key.
>
> https://youtu.be/hoO7PtR0ujY
[https://i.ytimg.com/vi/hoO7PtR0ujY/hqdefault.jpg]<https://youtu.be/hoO7PtR0ujY>

Watchmaking art part 1<https://youtu.be/hoO7PtR0ujY>
youtu.be
Watchmaker documentary


>
>
>
> --
> Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government
> when it deserves it.
> --Mark Twain
>
> We may be surprised at the people we find in heaven. God has a soft spot
> for sinners. His standards are quite low.
> --Desmond Tutu
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--
Sent from my iPad 4.
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Re: [time-nuts] End-of-Range: Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3

[Tom Knox]

Happy Holidays Magnus!  What I was wondering was that the BVA is somewhat 
unique since other oscillators have metal directly deposited over the quartz 
resonator, where the BVA is capacitive coupled. I was wondering if that made 
the quartz age less if at all.

Cheers;

Thomas Knox




From: time-nuts <time-nuts-boun...@febo.com> on behalf of Magnus Danielson 
<mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org>
Sent: Friday, December 8, 2017 11:32 AM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Cc: mag...@rubidium.se
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] End-of-Range: Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3

Hi,

There is sources of drift all over the place.

The crystal has drift in it, the oscillator core has sources of drift.

Already within a crystal there is a bunch of sources. Some can
compensate each other.

Improvements in production have reduced effects, but there is always
something that drifts, somewhat.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 12/08/2017 06:27 PM, Tom Knox wrote:
> Hi All;
>
> Is the "Aging" generally related to the quartz, or other components?
>
> Happy-Merry;
>
> Thomas Knox
>
>
>
> 
> From: time-nuts <time-nuts-boun...@febo.com> on behalf of Bob kb8tq 
> <kb...@n1k.org>
> Sent: Friday, December 8, 2017 9:58 AM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] End-of-Range: Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3
>
> Hi
>
> One risk is that the oscillator may have drifted further than one can easily 
> adjust it by
> just changing a select cap. That seems silly when we are talking about < 1 
> ppm, but
> the 8600 is an unusual OCXO. The electrodes BVA is not your run of the mill 
> crystal.
> The “air gap” (actually a gap in vacuum) puts a pretty small capacitance in 
> series with
> the normal crystal equivalent circuit. That cuts the practical tuning range 
> down quite
> a bit….
>
> Bob
>
>> On Dec 8, 2017, at 11:44 AM, Magnus Danielson <mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org> 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Many include a EFC offset pot, but when you go out of range on that, as I 
>> have for one of mine, here is no real option execept pop the lid and 
>> potentially find a cap or change a cap. I have not seen any as I recall, but 
>> should maybe take a look.
>>
>> However, the value for me is not to have it as sharp 5 MHz source, but very 
>> low phase noise and high stability source as reference for measurement. The 
>> offset error is less of a concern then, so that is why I have not spent 
>> quality time to fix it.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Magnus
>>
>> On 12/08/2017 04:52 PM, paul swed wrote:
>>> I took a quick look at the spec sheet.
>>> It appears coarse adjustment is an option M and would actually be a pot.
>>> That speaks to another tuning diode for coarse? Or a pot on pot arrangement.
>>> That sounds ugly.
>>> Regards
>>> Paul
>>> WB8TSL
>>> On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 10:17 AM, Bob kb8tq <kb...@n1k.org> wrote:
>>>> Hi
>>>>
>>>> It is quite possible that nothing is actually broken and that the crystal
>>>> has simply drifted
>>>> outside the tuning range. It should be pretty easy to spot the coarse
>>>> tuning device once
>>>> the package is open. I would bet you will find a selected capacitor across
>>>> the coarse tune or in
>>>> series with the coarse tune. Changing the value of that cap should bring
>>>> things back on
>>>> frequency. I would avoid changing caps across the EFC tuning diode.
>>>>
>>>> Bob
>>>>
>>>>> On Dec 8, 2017, at 8:05 AM, Ulf Kylenfall via time-nuts <
>>>> time-nuts@febo.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Gentlemen,
>>>>> We have an Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3that cannot any longer be adjusted
>>>> into 5,000,000 Hz.It is about 1 Hz out of 5 MHz and turning
>>>> coarse/fineadjustment potentiometers cannot bring the frequencyinto its
>>>> specification.
>>>>> Oven temperature is about + 80C accordingto the thermistor and the
>>>> operating voltageis at 24 VDC.
>>>>> Have Googled but the only thing that turns upis datasheets w/o any
>>>> details.
>>>>> Before I take it apart and start lookingfor obviously broken components,
>>>> isthere anyone that has a CLIP on this unit?
>>>>> 73
>>>>>
>>>>> Ulf Kylenfall - SM6GXV
>>>>> ___
>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- ti

Re: [time-nuts] End-of-Range: Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3

[Tom Knox]

Hi All;

Is the "Aging" generally related to the quartz, or other components?

Happy-Merry;

Thomas Knox




From: time-nuts  on behalf of Bob kb8tq 

Sent: Friday, December 8, 2017 9:58 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] End-of-Range: Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3

Hi

One risk is that the oscillator may have drifted further than one can easily 
adjust it by
just changing a select cap. That seems silly when we are talking about < 1 ppm, 
but
the 8600 is an unusual OCXO. The electrodes BVA is not your run of the mill 
crystal.
The “air gap” (actually a gap in vacuum) puts a pretty small capacitance in 
series with
the normal crystal equivalent circuit. That cuts the practical tuning range 
down quite
a bit….

Bob

> On Dec 8, 2017, at 11:44 AM, Magnus Danielson  
> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Many include a EFC offset pot, but when you go out of range on that, as I 
> have for one of mine, here is no real option execept pop the lid and 
> potentially find a cap or change a cap. I have not seen any as I recall, but 
> should maybe take a look.
>
> However, the value for me is not to have it as sharp 5 MHz source, but very 
> low phase noise and high stability source as reference for measurement. The 
> offset error is less of a concern then, so that is why I have not spent 
> quality time to fix it.
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus
>
> On 12/08/2017 04:52 PM, paul swed wrote:
>> I took a quick look at the spec sheet.
>> It appears coarse adjustment is an option M and would actually be a pot.
>> That speaks to another tuning diode for coarse? Or a pot on pot arrangement.
>> That sounds ugly.
>> Regards
>> Paul
>> WB8TSL
>> On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 10:17 AM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> It is quite possible that nothing is actually broken and that the crystal
>>> has simply drifted
>>> outside the tuning range. It should be pretty easy to spot the coarse
>>> tuning device once
>>> the package is open. I would bet you will find a selected capacitor across
>>> the coarse tune or in
>>> series with the coarse tune. Changing the value of that cap should bring
>>> things back on
>>> frequency. I would avoid changing caps across the EFC tuning diode.
>>>
>>> Bob
>>>
 On Dec 8, 2017, at 8:05 AM, Ulf Kylenfall via time-nuts <
>>> time-nuts@febo.com> wrote:


 Gentlemen,
 We have an Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3that cannot any longer be adjusted
>>> into 5,000,000 Hz.It is about 1 Hz out of 5 MHz and turning
>>> coarse/fineadjustment potentiometers cannot bring the frequencyinto its
>>> specification.
 Oven temperature is about + 80C accordingto the thermistor and the
>>> operating voltageis at 24 VDC.
 Have Googled but the only thing that turns upis datasheets w/o any
>>> details.
 Before I take it apart and start lookingfor obviously broken components,
>>> isthere anyone that has a CLIP on this unit?
 73

 Ulf Kylenfall - SM6GXV
 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
>>> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.
>>>
>>> ___
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>>> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>
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Re: [time-nuts] Favorite counters (current production)?

[Tom Knox]

The FS740 is interesting. Obviously it has a lot going for it, but what appears 
to be missing is graphic data display capabilities which would simply be a few 
line of code. Perhaps I missed something skimming through the manual.

And it appears to be a simple L1 receiver, I myself am looking forward to an 
instrument with these great user features backed up in an instrument using 
L1/L2 as well as the other GNSS constellations with carrier phase as well is 
simply looking at the L1 timing signal. What I also find interesting is the 
rubidium has the same phase noise spec as their physically impressive stand 
alone quartz The phase noise is very good compared to LPRO and X72 on the 
FS725's I have measured  with the 5MHz phase noise meeting their specs but the 
10MHz seems consistently about 10dB optimistic.

All and All a real nice instrument that may soon find a place in my lab. 
Tramsmille has also come out recently with a similar concept but I have not 
seen any details.

Cheers;

Thomas Knox




From: time-nuts  on behalf of Magnus Danielson 

Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2017 8:57 AM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Cc: mag...@rubidium.se
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Favorite counters (current production)?

Hi,

On 11/11/2017 01:44 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote:
>> A trouble with some of these modern counters is that sometimes their
>> processing isn't as transparent as it used to be. The trouble with that
>
> I agree 100%. They get "too clever" for their own good and the internal 
> design is not released. This is one reason why the TAPR TICC is so welcome. 
> Totally open h/w and s/w. Ok, it doesn't quite compete with 20 ps 
> full-featured high-end counters, but it's also 10x cheaper.

This is a common problem to the researchers and the time-nuts.
We can hope that the vendors reading this take notice about these needs.

> That said, I want to point out that the latest GPSDO / counter from Stanford 
> Research continues their tradition of relatively open design. If you have an 
> hour, go through the very detailed user manual, which includes theory of 
> operation and BOM and schematics, just like the old days:
>
> http://www.thinksrs.com/downloads/PDFs/Manuals/FS740m.pdf
FS740 GPS Time and Frequency 
System
www.thinksrs.com
Stanford Research Systems FS740 GPS Time and Frequency System Certification 
Stanford Research Systems certifies that this product met its published 
specifications at ...


> http://www.thinksrs.com/downloads/PDFs/Catalog/FS740c.pdf
Frequency Standards - Stanford Research 
Systems
www.thinksrs.com
Stanford Research Systems phone (40)744-9040 www.thinSRS.com Frequency 
Standards FS740 — GPS Time and Frequency System


>
> It's rather understated: they call it a "GPS time and frequency system" but 
> it does frequency synthesis and pulse generation, frequency counting and time 
> tagging, stats including ADEV, etc. You can see how they combined pieces of 
> several other products all into this one modern instrument. Perhaps there's 
> no need for them to ever refresh the SR620 now that the FS740 exists.

Many thanks for this one, I did not know about this one, but look very
interesting.

>> That said, I hope Keysight can straight it out. I'm not out to bash
>> them, but I'm not as excited about their products as I was back in the
>> HP and early Agilent days.
>
> Right. That's also why I mentioned that if someday there's a Keysight B 
> version of the 53230 I'm all in. Surely someone at Keysight is looking into 
> this. They just need someone with a time nut mentality to clear up all the 
> loose ends. Meanwhile the FS740 is on my Christmas list.

Exactly my view. That we comment on it here, is since we learn and need
to track it. Hopefully they learn from this.

Vendors have become better at interacting again.

In the meanwhile, I hope Santa has a nice FS740 for me under the
christmas tree. Need to be nice now for a the rest of the year.

Cheers,
Magnus
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[time-nuts] Lucent OMQ modules

[Tom Knox]

Has anyone played with the Lucent OMQ Time and frequency Modules? I have seen 
them with Symmetricom 5Mhz Quartz P/N 106824 - 001 oscillators one of which is 
currently listed on eBay. Other versions have X72's while some have X72's and 
Quartz. I believe the 5MHz oscillator are digitally controlled and an 
interesting  Motorola PIC18F6520

Thanks;

Thomas Knox

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Re: [time-nuts] sine to square wave circuits - performance data?

[Tom Knox]

Thomas Knox
Sr Test and Measurement Engineer
Ascent Concepts and Technology
4475 Whitney Place
Boulder Colorado 80305
1-303-554-0307
act...@hotmail.com



From: time-nuts  on behalf of Mark Sims 

Sent: Wednesday, October 4, 2017 9:21 AM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] sine to square wave circuits - performance data?

Wenzel says an HC device tends to work better than an AC device in squarer 
applications.

My calibrator board has a place for the feedback resistor so that I can 
implement the second LPRO circuit (or add hysteresis to the squarer gate.



> I find it interesting that a simple 74AC04 performs so well (given enough
input power) compared to even an LT1016.
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Re: [time-nuts] In praise of service: PTF

[Tom Knox]

Thanks, It is a sad sign of the times that in far to many companies as the 
scientists who founded these companies retire the bean counter take over and 
the company vectors from a customer driven model to a stock holder driven 
model. Thankfully there are a few shining examples of "customer driven" 
companies left. By the way, it has been a few years but I have had good support 
on parts and firmware from FEI/Zyfer.

I encourage other Time-Nuts to pass on their experiences with these companies, 
I know many of their employees are also followers of this forum and this 
feedback will hopefully lead to improvements. As are many Time-Nuts I am a 
researcher as well as hobbyist and support I receive as a humble hobbyist 
strongly influences my product decisions at work.

Cheers;

Thomas Knox
Sr Test and Measurement Engineer




From: time-nuts  on behalf of Mark Kahrs 

Sent: Sunday, October 1, 2017 9:09 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: [time-nuts] In praise of service: PTF

Let me praise the support provided by PTF 
(www.ptf-llc.com): I obtained a
Precise Time and Frequency – http://www.ptf-llc.com
www.ptf-llc.com
Constantly striving to improve functionality and performance, and reduce cost 
through innovation and technology. Click for more details.


faulty GPS time clock off ebay to replace the one that was burned by a
lightning strike on the house.

First, the manual is online.  Second, the support emails provided by PTF
(probably by the owner) allowed me to diagnose the problem.  That's what I
call useful and supportive!

Now, for the disparage list...  I obtained a Zyfer GPS box that turned out
to be de-mil'd.   In spite of the manual being online, the Zyfer support
basically refused to help me out in spite of my offer to sign any and all
NDAs if needed.

Meanwhile, since the Zyfer box used a Trimble GPS subsystem, I thought
maybe I could obtain the details from Trimble.  You can guess the rest:
unresponsive.

So, I'd like to salute a company that stands behind their products enough
to answer queries about support.  Even to a guy who is obviously not going
to order 1000 boxes.
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Re: [time-nuts] Tuning a Symmetricom 1111C

[Tom Knox]

Hi Ed;

Thanks for the response. Great logic/detail on potential issues and solutions. 
The power supply issue seems completely intermittent and when running may be 
completely fine. That said I am leaning toward the power supply being the 
issue, it would explain all the issues. I first saw the power supply issue with 
the batteries installed, I removed the fuse and the missing voltages came up 
and the unit locked. before with those voltages absent it was displaying the 
lock light every few seconds after warmup. I had assumed a bad battery had 
created too great a load on the supply. But it failed to come up again when I 
rebooted and then came up again the next time I rebooted. It is either zero or 
correct. I have several problematic 4065's and thought they had 1000B's, I will 
check if any have a C. It would be easy to swap them and would resolve the 
question of if these problems are related. The unit I have may actually be 
locking but outside it's acceptable EFC range. Phase Noise is except
 ional about -120dB @ 1Hz offset 5MHz.

I will look at solder on the bricks, for the symptoms that could be the issue.

Thanks again for your help;

Thomas Knox




From: time-nuts <time-nuts-boun...@febo.com> on behalf of Ed Palmer 
<ed_pal...@sasktel.net>
Sent: Saturday, July 8, 2017 12:03 PM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Tuning a Symmetricom C

Hi Tom,

I have a Datum 4065A standard with a Datum B oscillator.  I've never
had to tune it, but it appears to be a clone of the HP 10811 so you
might get some insights by researching that oscillator. However, if
you're having issues with the +-15V supplies, I'd STRONGLY suggest that
you resolve those before attempting to retune the oscillator.

Circuit information for these units isn't available, but reading between
the lines, I note the following:
- My unit uses an AD9713BAP D/A converter to drive the EFC.  It requires
+-5V supplies.
- The system monitors +5V, +15V, and -15V, but not -5V so where is -5V
coming from?  I see an LM320-5V on the mainboard near the D/A converter.

My first guess is that -5V is derived from the -15V supply.  If that's
true, flaky +-15V supplies will almost guarantee a flaky EFC.  Since
your unit was able to lock once, it further suggests that retuning isn't
required.

There's a power supply board bolted to one of the side panels that uses
a couple of DC-DC bricks.  I found some bad solder joints on that
board.  I can't remember the details.  You might want to check that out.

Since these units are microprocessor controlled and include multiple
tests and measurements to ensure that the lock is on the correct signal
peak I don't think it's going to lock to the wrong peak.

You should also be aware that these units use a STEL-1173 chip to drive
the D/A converter.  This chip is infamous for failing after a few
years.  If you search the archives you'll find more info on that topic.
I found a source for this chip a few years ago, but it looks like that
source has dried up.

Ed

On 2017-07-08 10:00 AM, Tom Knox <act...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Hi All;
>
> Does anyone have a data sheet or experience with the Symmetricom C, I 
> have one in a Symmetricom 4065C and the internal diagnostics say it is at the 
> end of it's tuning range. Is there a way to do a coarse manual adjustment, or 
> is it a possibility the Cesium is locking to a side peak? In addition the +- 
> 15 volt supplies have failed to switch on twice during testing, but have 
> switch on after rebooting. On one reboot it locked quickly.
>
> Thanks;
>
> Thomas Knox
>

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[time-nuts] Tuning a Symmetricom 1111C

[Tom Knox]

Hi All;

Does anyone have a data sheet or experience with the Symmetricom C, I have 
one in a Symmetricom 4065C and the internal diagnostics say it is at the end of 
it's tuning range. Is there a way to do a coarse manual adjustment, or is it a 
possibility the Cesium is locking to a side peak? In addition the +- 15 volt 
supplies have failed to switch on twice during testing, but have switch on 
after rebooting. On one reboot it locked quickly.

Thanks;

Thomas Knox

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[time-nuts] The future of Telecom Frequency Standard surplus

[Tom Knox]

I think many of us Time-Nuts have played with the wide range of frequency 
standards surplussed from the Telecom market.

My questions is, will the quality of future surplus offerings go up or down as 
4G and in the more distant future 5G surplus Frequency Standards hit the 
market? It seems with higher data rates stability and phase noise demands will 
increase, but will other advances find ways around the expense of a high end 
Frequency Standard. I know some early telecom systems even want as far as 
Cesium Standards, but more robust network tolerances seems to have reduced the 
need for that level of performance. So which way are we headed?

Any thought? I imagine some members are actually involved in design and 
implementation of the next generation telecom technologies and will have direct 
knowledge.

Thanks;


Thomas Knox
1-303-554-0307
act...@hotmail.com
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Re: [time-nuts] Datum 1130 10 MHz oscillator

[Tom Knox]

Hi;

I thought I had the data sheet but cannot find it. It is very, very similar to 
the 1000B but has slightly worse Phase Noise specs something like 105dB (5dB 
worse then the 1000B) @ 1 Hz offset for the 10MHz units. I think it was 
designed more for telecom use and the 1000B for time and freq. I hope that 
helps.

Cheers;

Thomas Knox

act...@hotmail.com



From: time-nuts  on behalf of James Robbins 

Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2017 11:16 AM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Datum 1130 10 MHz oscillator

Anyone have specs or manual for a Datum 1130 10 MHz oscillator?  Many thanks.  
Jim Robbins
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[time-nuts] Sorry for the unedited post: Counter Internal Oscillator Importance with ExternalReference?

[Tom Knox]

Hi All;

I used my speech recognition software last night and reading my post this 
morning I was embarrassed.  Hopefully this email will make sense.
Thanks everyone for their input. Tom, i have a question; was there any 
difference between the two 53230A oscillators when locked to an external 
reference? I have also experienced poor results with my 53230A HS phase locked 
to an external reference. My issue is constant pop-ups showing reference 
errors. I wonder if that is related to issues you encountered. I would like to 
compare oscillator options in the same counter model and I have several each  
53230A's and MCA3027's but sadly they have the same oscillator option in each 
respectively so I cannot directly compare PLL oscillator performance. My 
thinking is a phase locked internal reference may not be the best option for 
those of us with ULPN, Ultra Stable house references so I am trying to reverse 
engineer the Tektronix FCA/MCA counter to determine if there is away to 
directly feed an external reference instead of phase locking the internal 
reference. My plan is to find a way (if possible and it is encouraging) to do 
this while kee
 ping the rest of the functionality intact, Which does appear possible on the 
Tektronix, Fluke, Pendulum instruments (All the same base units branded 
differently). It appears depending on the oscillator option U11B sends an 
off/on signals to switch between internal oscillator options; Std Pin3, Oven 
Pin5, or Rubidium Pin4. This switching then has the installed reference option 
provides 10MHz signals to  U11B pin204 RB, Pin205 Std, Pin206 Oven 
respectively, most likely changing PLL parameters at the same time. Whether 
this is auto sensed or manually controlled  I have yet to determine. The 
selection may be in the menu. My thinking is this may allow simply adding a 
connector and cable to the rear panel to apply an external reference directly.  
In these counters U9A seems related to the PLL functions including control, 
sensing, and switching using the standard External Reference input. If my idea 
pans out this feature would remain unchanged so the internal oscillator can 
still be used (
 When the direct feed is not appropriate) to clean up a dirtier external 
reference. My plan is (Unless someone else has already looked into this is to 
next see if the same is also possible with the 53230A. The BIG question does 
this improve performance. Any thoughts? I spoke with a friend Fred Walls today 
and asked if he though the internal reference was much of a factor when Lock to 
a good external reference and he did not thin so. So I will keep anyone 
interested informed with my progress since I am sure many of you have reference 
that may benefit from this modification if it does improve performance.

Thanks again for everyone's input.

Thomas Knox


From: time-nuts  on behalf of Tom Van Baak 

Sent: Tuesday, May 9, 2017 9:03 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Counter Internal Oscillator Importance with 
ExternalReference?

Hi Thomas,

About the 53230A -- like many of us I figured there was no point in buying the 
expensive OCXO versions since I have plenty of good 10 MHz references around 
here. So years ago Keysight loaned me two of them for a month: one with, and 
one without OCXO. Like most counters, the 53230A has an ext-ref input. But it 
is horrible. And the ref output is even worse. I think we've discussed this on 
the list before, including ADEV and PN plots. I decided not to buy one, ever, 
until they fixed the problem.

So it could be a nice counter. Someone at Agilent / Keysight needs to re-design 
the int/ext/mux/pll clock handling of the 53230A; someone who understands phase 
noise and short-term stability; someone who honors the intent of ext-ref-in and 
ref-out; someone who keeps stupid microprocessor / LCD / comms / power supply 
noise out of the clock path. Meanwhile I keep my old 53132A's and older SR620's 
and stay away from the 53230A.

If you have your own measurements, please share. Maybe I just got a bad sample, 
I don't know. But the ext-ref performance smelled like poor engineering to me. 
My hope is that someone on the list will hack a 53230A, fix the problem, and 
share the solution with us, or even with Keysight.

/tvb


> Hi All;
>
> How important is the standard, medium, or high stability reference in 
> counters like the 53230A, or FCA3120 when locked to an ultra low phase noise 
> external reference? Particularly when making measurements and adjustments on 
> other ultra high performance references?
>
> I know Agilent sold 53132A counters with an option (H01 I believe) that 
> bypassed the internal reference completely when and external reference is 
> applied, but I think standard configuration on most counter is to discipline 
> the internal reference.
>
> Thanks for your thoughts.
>
> Thomas Knox

Re: [time-nuts] Looking for a HP-58503 display

[Tom Knox]

I am 99% sure you are correct, it is the same display as the 53131/2A counter. 
Sadly although in the past I have found and been able to order raw similar 
displays for product such as the 3458A, after a prolonged search I was never 
able to find a part number or order the 58503/53132 displays. Often Agilent 
Keysight kweeps these part numbers in house and does not provide any help with 
part numbers, but if you know the number you can order it. Anyone have any 
insight to the part number?

Cheers;

Thomas Knox




From: time-nuts  on behalf of Mark Sims 

Sent: Tuesday, May 9, 2017 5:25 PM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Looking for a HP-58503 display

I looked closely at the display and can see unused annunciators for frequency, 
us, period, etc.  So the display is the same as used in at least one of their 
frequency counters.  It has 12 alphanumeric digits.
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Re: [time-nuts] Counter Internal Oscillator Importance with ExternalReference?

[Tom Knox]

Hi All;

Thanks for the input. Tom a question, was there any difference between the two 
53230A oscillator when locked to an external reference? I have also experienced 
poor results with my 53230A often showing constant reference errors. Sadly I 
have several each  53230A's Ultra Stab and MCA3027's Med Stab so I cannot 
directly compare oscillator performance. I am trying to reverse engineer the 
Tektronix FCA/MCA counter to determine if there is away to directly feed an 
external reference is a direct reference instead of phase locking the internal 
reference while keeping the rest of the functionality intact, Which appears 
possible on these boxes. It appears U11B send off/on signals from pin 3,4,5 to 
switch between Std3, Oven5, or Rubidium4 internal ref which then provides 10MHz 
signals to U11B pin 204 RB ,205 Std,206 Oven respectively, What sense and 
controls that I have yet to determine, the selection may be in the menu. That 
may allow simple adding a connector and cable to the rear panel. U9A 
 seems to relate PLL and switching. Perhaps the same is possible with the 
53230A. I spoke with a friend Fred Walls today and asked if he though the 
internal reference was much of a factor when Lock to a good external reference 
and he did not thin so.

Thanks again for everyone's input.

Thomas Knox


From: time-nuts  on behalf of Tom Van Baak 

Sent: Tuesday, May 9, 2017 9:03 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Counter Internal Oscillator Importance with 
ExternalReference?

Hi Thomas,

About the 53230A -- like many of us I figured there was no point in buying the 
expensive OCXO versions since I have plenty of good 10 MHz references around 
here. So years ago Keysight loaned me two of them for a month: one with, and 
one without OCXO. Like most counters, the 53230A has an ext-ref input. But it 
is horrible. And the ref output is even worse. I think we've discussed this on 
the list before, including ADEV and PN plots. I decided not to buy one, ever, 
until they fixed the problem.

So it could be a nice counter. Someone at Agilent / Keysight needs to re-design 
the int/ext/mux/pll clock handling of the 53230A; someone who understands phase 
noise and short-term stability; someone who honors the intent of ext-ref-in and 
ref-out; someone who keeps stupid microprocessor / LCD / comms / power supply 
noise out of the clock path. Meanwhile I keep my old 53132A's and older SR620's 
and stay away from the 53230A.

If you have your own measurements, please share. Maybe I just got a bad sample, 
I don't know. But the ext-ref performance smelled like poor engineering to me. 
My hope is that someone on the list will hack a 53230A, fix the problem, and 
share the solution with us, or even with Keysight.

/tvb


> Hi All;
>
> How important is the standard, medium, or high stability reference in 
> counters like the 53230A, or FCA3120 when locked to an ultra low phase noise 
> external reference? Particularly when making measurements and adjustments on 
> other ultra high performance references?
>
> I know Agilent sold 53132A counters with an option (H01 I believe) that 
> bypassed the internal reference completely when and external reference is 
> applied, but I think standard configuration on most counter is to discipline 
> the internal reference.
>
> Thanks for your thoughts.
>
> Thomas Knox


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[time-nuts] Counter Internal Oscillator Importance with External Reference?

[Tom Knox]

Hi All;

How important is the standard, medium, or high stability reference in counters 
like the 53230A, or FCA3120 when locked to an ultra low phase noise external 
reference? Particularly when making measurements and adjustments on other ultra 
high performance references?

I know Agilent sold 53132A counters with an option (H01 I believe) that 
bypassed the internal reference completely when and external reference is 
applied, but I think standard configuration on most counter is to discipline 
the internal reference.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Thomas Knox

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Re: [time-nuts] Problem with HP 83623A 20 GHz sweep generator stepping up/down 100 Hz when not wanted.

[Tom Knox]

If it is any help, the 836XXA/B series are all capable of 1Hz resolution but 
are locked at 1KHz unless you enter the license key for option 008. So it could 
be software/firmware related.

Happy Merry;

Thomas Knox




From: time-nuts  on behalf of Dr. David Kirkby 
(Kirkby Microwave Ltd) 
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2016 4:42 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: [time-nuts] Problem with HP 83623A 20 GHz sweep generator stepping 
up/down 100 Hz when not wanted.

I run a test over the weekend with a fellow radio ham. I transmitted 100 mW
or so at 10368.115 MHz from an HP 83623A 10 MHz to 20 GHz sweep generator

http://www.keysight.com/en/pd-101862%3Aepsg%3Apro-pn-83623A/synthesized-sweeper-10-mhz-to-20-ghz-high-power?cc=GB=eng
83623A Synthesized Sweeper, 10 MHz to 20 GHz, High Power [Obsolete] | Keysight 
(formerly Agilent’s Electronic 
Measurement)
www.keysight.com
The 83623A is no longer available, the replacement product is E8257D PSG analog 
signal generator.



into a small horn antenna inside my lab.

He was able to receive me about 7 km away, although the signal was quite
week - it was 20 dB above the noise in a 2.9 Hz bandwidth.

What is odd, is that his transceiver + transverter combination indicates
the signal generator is shifting frequency up/down 100 Hz. This is not slow
drift, but a step change - see waterfall picture, where time is on the
vertical axis, and frequency is on the horizontal. Unfortunately I don't
know what the scale is on the vertical axis - I am trying to find out. The
frequency on the x-axis is not the true frequency, but that shown on an 2 m
amateur transceiver, so the true frequency is more than 10 GHz higher.

The step size on this HP sweeper is 1 kHz, so the 100 Hz up/down shift is
not due to a rotary encoder that might be just on the limit of two
frequencies.  Both the internal oscillator and a GPS locked frequency
standard were used during this test. Going from internal to external
reference caused a 450 Hz step in frequency, but did not change this
up/down 100 Hz behavior. So the problem is certainly not the crystal in a
10 MHz reference oscillator, as two have been tried, one of which was
locked to GPS.

Does anyone have an idea what may cause this behavior?

Does anyone have any ideas on the best way to investigate this, given the
signal is at more than 10 GHz?

What I do *not* have is any other signal generator capable of operation at
10 GHz. The only other sig gen I have is a 30 MHz Stanford Research DS345
function generator.

I don't have a TI counter at the minute, but had an offer of $300 accepted
on eBay for a 5370B a couple of days back, so should have a TI counter
soon. (Yes, I have had an 5370B and SR620 in the past, but for various
reasons no longer have them). The 5370B at $300 was a lot cheaper than an
SR620.

Other equipment I have include

* 22 GHz spectrum analyzer
* 30 MHz signal generator
* 20 GHz VNA

but no other signal generator capable of anywhere near 10 GHz.

I do have a couple of double balanced mixers which have RF and IF inputs
that will take 10 GHz, and an IF output that will go from DC to 4 GHz.
Introducing a REALLY long delay might allow the steps to be seen, as the
frequency at the LO and RF inputs of the mixers will be different. But
that's not really practical, as I'd need an awfully long bit of coax.

The 20 GHz vector network analyzer, which could be pressed into service as
a poor (rich) mans microwave signal source, but I suspect the output of
that is quite dirty, as the output is generated from a step recovery diode.
I have not yet tested it on a spectrum analyzer, but the SA has quite a few
spurious signals, so I'm never exactly confident of the SA. But one thing
to possibly is

* Set sweep generator to 10.368 GHz
* Set sweep generator to 10.378 GHz, so there's a 10 MHz difference.
* Mix the VNA + sweeper down to 10 MHz using a double balanced mixer
* Compare the 10 MHz at the output of a mixer to that of a 10 MHz crystal.
Steps of 100 Hz should then be seen I guess.

Any better suggestions?

Someone had kindly given me a key to change the step size of the signal
generator from 1 kHz to 1 Hz. I've not applied that yet, as it is quite a
complex procedure. But the fact the step size of this is 1 kHz, but it is
shifting up/down 100 Hz, does not make sense. Especially given the unit is
capable of 1 Hz resolution, but HP decided to charge extra for 1 Hz steps.
Luckily this is just a software option.

I did wonder if the signal generator was incapable of output the exact
frequency needed, so it was stepped up/down periodically so it gave the
right number of cycles over a long duration. But again, the fact it can
step 1 Hz with just a software upgrade suggest that's not the case.

The 

[time-nuts] Thanks: Lady Heather Version 5 is now available

[Tom Knox]

This seems like an idea time to send my thanks to all involved in the 
development of Lady Heather as well as the many Time-Nut that have contributed 
to the advancement  and accessibility of the science of Time and Frequency. 
This thanks goes to all from those scientists I am barely smart enough to get 
coffee for, to the amateur just starting the path of learn about Time and 
Frequency. I have heard it said the only dumb question is the one we fail to 
ask.

Thanks Again and Happy Holidays;

Thomas Knox
Sr Test and Measurement Engineer
Quantum Electromagnetics Division
NIST
Boulder Colorado 80305
1-303-554-0307
tom.k...@nist.gov and act...@hotmail.com



From: time-nuts  on behalf of Mark Sims 

Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2016 8:56 AM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather Version 5 is now available

Lady Heather version 5.0 is now available for download from:
   http://www.ke5fx.com/heather/readme.htm
Lady Heather's Disciplined Oscillator Control 
Program
www.ke5fx.com
Command-line Options for Current Release (V3.XX) Startup command line options 
should be placed on the TARGET line in the Lady Heather program PROPERTIES or 
in the ...



Many thanks to John Miles for hosting the distribution and his work on the 
Windows installer, PDF documentation file, readme file, and bring an all-around 
good guy.

Heather now has some proper user documentation.  Check the heather.pdf file 
and/or the comments in the first 3500+ lines of the heather.cpp file.  Heather 
can be compiled for Linux (including the Raspberry Pi) and macOS.  Download the 
heatherx11.zip file and check the readme.txt file for compilation instructions.

There are MANY new features in Heather.  One of the main ones is support for 
many new receiver types.  When Heather is started it defaults to attempting to 
automatically determine the receiver type.   You can bypass this and force the 
receiver type using the new "/rx..." command line options.  Some receiver types 
cannot be auto-detected.  Also many receivers power up speaking NMEA and you 
can enable their native binary language using the /rx commands.  Native binary 
mode gives better information and allows controlling the receiver configuration 
and settings.

Currently-supported receivers include:
Trimble Thunderbolt and Thunderbolt-E
Acron Zeit WWVB receiver
UCCM - Trimble / Symmetricom GPSDOs
DATUM STARLOC II GPSDO
NEC GPSDO (STAR-4 compatible)
GPSD interface
Jupiter-T (aka Zodiac)
Lucent KS24361 REF0/Z3811A (19200:8:N:1)
Motorola binary format
Generic NMEA receiver
Trimble Resolution T family with odd parity
Sirf binary
Generic Trimble TSIP binary
Ublox UBX binary
Venus mixed binary / NMEA
Nortel SCPI-compatible GPSDOs (NTWB, NTPX, etc.)
Z3801A and compatible SCPI GPSDOs
HP 5-style SCPI
Oscilloquartz STAR-4 (via the management interface)
NVS binary
PC system clock (no receiver)

After installing Heather, you should edit the heather.cfg file (or the 
PROPERTIES setting for the desktop icon) for your desired configuration.  
Everybody should change the "/tz" option for their time zone... it comes set up 
for the US central time zone.  International uses should add a "/b..." command 
to set their daylight savings time information.   On Windows, you can press the 
"n" key and that will bring up NOTEPAD to edit the file.  For the changes to 
take effect you will need to re-start Heather (or do a "r heather.cfg" keyboard 
command).



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Re: [time-nuts] 53132 replacement fan

[Tom Knox]

Hi All;

Mouser has more then 200 of the EFB0412MD OEM fans in stock. 10.93 in singles.

I have so many fans running in my lab I do not worry much about a little more 
noise. But a noisy fan is a major concern because of overheating if the fan 
fails, and although I usually go for an OEM parts in some cases with product 
that generate a lot of heat (especially product where I have seen heat 
contribute to failure) I will go with a more powerful fan.

Cheers;

Thomas Knox
1-303-554-0307
tom.k...@nist.gov and act...@hotmail.com



From: time-nuts  on behalf of John Ackermann N8UR 

Sent: Monday, November 21, 2016 11:37 AM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 53132 replacement fan

Thanks, all for the tips.  Glad to know it's a standard size so there's
plenty of choice.

John


On 11/21/2016 12:57 PM, jimlux wrote:
> On 11/21/16 6:39 AM, Charles Steinmetz wrote:
>> Tom wrote:
>>
>>> EFB0412MD
>>> Airflow 7.17 CFM
>>> 6300 RPM
>>> Noise 24 dBA
>>>
>>> FBK04F12U
>>> Same exact form factor.
>>> Air Flow 9.2 CFM
>>> 9500 RPM
>>> Noise 42 dB(A)
>>
>> Note the 18dB greater noise (that's a HUGE difference).  Even with bad
>> bearings in the original fan, it is probably considerably quieter (by
>> 10dB or more) than the proposed replacement.  On the other hand, the
>> replacement moves 28% more air, which may be a good thing.
>>
>
> That's a 40mm fan, which is a standard size, I'll bet you can find a
> slower turning/quieter fan.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] 53132 replacement fan

[Tom Knox]

Hi John;

The exact part in a 2010 Agilent 53132A is EFB0412MD 12VDC 0.10A Brushless 
motor.

Operating Supply Voltage12 VDC

Airflow7.17 CFM

Speed6300 RPM

Pressure Type5.5 mmAq

Bearing TypeBall

Noise24 dBA

Power Rating0.72 W

Housing MaterialPlastic TypeD

Height40 mmLength40 mm


I have a FBK04F12U

Same exact form factor.

Voltage - Rated 12VDC
 Size / Dimension Square - 40mm L x 40mm H
 Width 20.00mm
 Air Flow 9.2 CFM (0.260m³/min)
 Static Pressure 0.472 in H2O (117.6 Pa)
 Bearing Type Ball
 Fan Type Tubeaxial
 Features -  Noise 42 dB(A)  Power (Watts) 2.04W  RPM 9500 RPM


Please feel free to contact me if you want me to ship one.

Cheers;


Thomas Knox
1-303-554-0307
tom.k...@nist.gov and act...@hotmail.com



From: time-nuts  on behalf of John Ackermann N8UR 

Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2016 12:14 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: [time-nuts] 53132 replacement fan

Does anyone have a part number for the 53132 fan (or equivalent)?  Mine
is getting pretty noisy.

Thanks!
John
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Re: [time-nuts] 53132 replacement fan

[Tom Knox]

Hi John;

There is a good chance I have the exact fan. I will check later today and let 
you know. If I do have it I well send you one. At least I should be able to 
find the Agilent and manufacturer part number .

Cheers;

Thomas Knox
Sr Test and Measurement Engineer
Boulder Colorado 80305
1-303-554-0307
act...@hotmail.com



From: time-nuts  on behalf of John Ackermann N8UR 

Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2016 12:14 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: [time-nuts] 53132 replacement fan

Does anyone have a part number for the 53132 fan (or equivalent)?  Mine
is getting pretty noisy.

Thanks!
John
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[time-nuts] L1 L2 choke Ring Question

[Tom Knox]

I recently purchased a used L1 L2 Choke ring antenna AeroAntenna 
AT2775-20W-000-05-26-NM, it has an AT2775 aircraft antenna with a 3.3" x 1.8" 
bolt pattern at it's heart.

Sadly the antenna is dead. I have been looking into the possibility of 
replacing the aircraft antenna portion and was wondering what the critical 
specs were and the approximate tolerances. I found an antenna from another 
manufacturer with the exact bolt pattern, but it appears the phase center is 
1-2mm lower.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Or if anyone has a AeroAntenna AT2775 aircraft antenna with a 3.3" x 1.8" bolt 
pattern they would be willing to sell or trade contact me off list.

Thanks!


Thomas Knox

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Re: [time-nuts] 3120A issues

[Tom Knox]

Hi All;

This was the email a friend recently received.

The 3120A product is currently on hold until Microsemi implements a solution.  
If you would like for Microsemi to sell this 3120A product to you and process 
your purchase order -Sales Order notwithstanding that these products do not 
meet published specifications, please reply to this email that you acknowledge 
and understand these products may be non-conforming and agree to purchase these 
non-conforming products in accordance with the terms hereof.  Microsemi's terms 
and conditions, which were provided to you in our sales order acknowledgment 
and which can also be found on http://www.microsemi.com/terms-a-conditions, 
will govern the sales of our products and this Order.  In addition and 
notwithstanding anything to the contrary contained in such terms, these 3120A 
products come only with our standard replacement warranty of twelve (12) 
months.  Accordingly, Microsemi will provide you with a replacement product 
upon receipt from you of the non-conforming product within the above twelve
  (12) months period, which is your exclusive remedy and Microsemi's exclusive 
liability for any claims in connection with these products and Order, howsoever 
arising.  Please reply with your acknowledgement.

Microsemi<http://www.microsemi.com/terms-a-conditions>
www.microsemi.com
Microsemi Corporation (Nasdaq: MSCC) offers a comprehensive portfolio of 
semiconductor and system solutions for aerospace & defense, communications, 
data center and ...



If we do not receive your acknowledgement, Microsemi will keep your order in 
our backlog, and ship when we have implemented a solution that allows us to 
meet the RoHS criteria and apply the CE mark and label."


Not really any details onnthe issue.

Thanks

Thomas Knox




From: time-nuts <time-nuts-boun...@febo.com> on behalf of John Miles 
<j...@miles.io>
Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2016 9:00 PM
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 3120A issues

> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Tom Knox
> Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2016 6:17 PM
> To: Time-Nuts
> Subject: [time-nuts] 3120A issues
>
> Does anyone have any insight as to why Microsemi has stopped shipping 3120A
> Phase Noise test sets  beside that they are not to spec?
>

It looks like they're still advertising the 3120A on their site.  I'm pretty 
far out of the loop at this point, but if they're having production-test 
problems, I haven't heard anything about them at all -- and I normally would, 
if they're having problems passing the factory tests.  Is that what you meant 
by "to spec?"

-- john, KE5FX
Miles Design LLC


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[time-nuts] 3120A issues

[Tom Knox]

Does anyone have any insight as to why Microsemi has stopped shipping 3120A 
Phase Noise test sets  beside that they are not to spec?

Thanks;

Thomas Knox

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[time-nuts] Slaving ET6000 off external 10MHz

[Tom Knox]

Hi All;

Does anyone know if the ET6000 or 9730-6000 can be slaved off and external 
10MHz source?

I know for example the Microsemi XLI can be locked to an external reference, 
but cannot find find that function on the 6000 series unit I am playing with.

THANKS IN ADVANCE FOR ANY HELP.


Thomas Knox

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Re: [time-nuts] FTS1050A performance

[Tom Knox]

Actually they are really nice, especially if it has the external 5MHz reference 
input.
For many aspects of Time and Freq related work I do close in Phase Noise is a 
primary concern.
If you ever decide it is not needed let me know I and I am sure many other 
"Time Nuts" would be interested.
Cheers;

Thomas Knox
1-303-554-0307
act...@hotmail.com


From: time-nuts  on behalf of jimlux 

Sent: Friday, April 8, 2016 9:12 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: [time-nuts] FTS1050A performance

I just ran across an unused FTS1050A at work, and before spending any
significant time seeing if it still works (like finding a power source..
there's no AC inlet, so I think it runs off DC), I decided to look up
the data sheet performance.  Interestingly, it seems it's not that
wonderful, compared to a $200 Wenzel streamline, except for "real close in"

FTS1050 Wenzel
1   -116-105? (est from 1/f^3 and 10 Hz offset)
10  -140-135
100 -150-155
1k  -157-165
10k -160-165



I note that John Ackerman reports on
https://www.febo.com/pages/oscillators/fts1050a/old/
  a similar observation

I suppose that you use these things for "close in" and ADEV performance,
not for phase noise at 10 kHz out.


Some of these units were modified at the lab to replace the original
oscillator with a better one (a BVA, it's rumored).  And who knows what
else was done..
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Re: [time-nuts] Owner's Manual and advice for Austron 2110 Disciplined Frequency Standard

[Tom Knox]

Hi Tim;
I am a little late to this string, Did you find the information you needed? I 
do have an Operation and Service Manual in my archive. One thing I have done 
with these is up grade the LCD to a high contrast LED back lite display. I can 
send you details on how to do that. My only request is that if I loan the 
manual, you make a decent quality PDF for one of the T-Nut members to host for 
future member use.
Please contact me directly if I can be of assistance.
Cheers;
Thomas Knox
1-303-554-0307
act...@hotmail.com


From: time-nuts  on behalf of Tom Leedy via 
time-nuts 
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2016 8:48 PM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Owner's Manual and advice for Austron 2110 Disciplined 
Frequency Standard

Hi --

I am looking for a manual for an Austron Model 2110 Disciplined Frequency
Standard (P/N 23199611-45 S/N 8085IU).  This unit reports that it is not
warmed up even though the external temperature of the case of the  crystal
oscillator reaches ~15 C temperature rise in a few hours as  expected.  The
internal oscillator is an Austron Model 1150 (S/N 4423  with frequency outputs
of 5 and 10 MHz, P/N 25299983).  I believe that this  request has been
posted before, but a few years ago.

Does the oscillator, by not correctly reporting as being warmed up,
inhibit other functions?  The frequency output, after a few hours, gets  within 
a
few parts in 10E-8 on both 5 and 10 MHz.  So I have faith the  basic
frequency generation capability is not trashed, but I can't get many other
function to work as expected.

Any help would be greatly appreciated for either the 2110 or the 1150
oscillator.  Feel free to contact me off list.

Tom Leedy
Clarksburg, MD
leedyt (at) aol (dot) com


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Re: [time-nuts] Jackson Labs M12M Replacement Receiver

[Tom Knox]

In my humble opinion Jackson Labs continues to raise the bar in GPS time and 
frequency with products that are compact, reasonably price, and most of all 
offer exceptional performance. Any idea if these will plug and play in my  
FEI/Zyfer Commsync II"s
Thanks All
Thomas Knox



> Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 14:44:03 -0700
> From: keith.loise...@gmail.com
> To: time-nuts@febo.com
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Jackson Labs M12M Replacement Receiver
> 
> If you are interested in purchasing you can do so directly through our ebay
> listing here:
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/-/181896123655
> 
> But, please contact me if you have any questions.
> 
> Thanks,
> Keith
> 
> 
> 
> Keith
> 
> On Wed, Oct 7, 2015 at 7:14 AM, Keith Loiselle 
> wrote:
> 
> > Hello everyone,
> >
> >
> >
> > Since there are many Fury GPSDO users here and many other users of the
> > Motorola M12+ and M12M timing receivers, we wanted to introduce our new
> > product which is an M12M compatible timing and navigation receiver that
> > uses the latest uBlox M8T GNSS receiver, and is a one-to-one replacement
> > for the aging, and hard to use Motorola/iLotus GPS receiver.
> >
> >
> >
> > This is kind of like a super M12M, with significant improvements in the
> > 1PPS timing accuracy and stability, support for receiving two of any of the
> > standard GNSS systems at any one time (GPS with SBAS, Glonass, QZSS,
> > BeiDou, and soon Galileo), and true plug-and-play operation. It should work
> > in pretty much most Motorola M12+ and M12M binary command applications.
> >
> >
> >
> > The unit is a form-fit-function compatible replacement for the M12M/M12+
> > receivers, and has been qualified on the JLT Fury GPSDO as well as the
> > Microsemi/Symmetricom XLI, and provides a massive upgrade in GNSS
> > performance such as -167dBm tracking capability (think indoors reception
> > may now be possible under certain circumstances), 72 channels capability
> > for very fast cold-start and re-acquisition, and multi-GNSS support.
> >
> >
> >
> > It has some additional features such as:
> >
> > *   Two USB ports, one for easy SCPI control, one for full access to the
> > uBlox commands for setup, as well as Carrier Phase, Almanac, and Ephemeris
> > data. The unit can also be powered via the USB ports and used stand-alone
> > sitting on a desk etc. There is no setup required though out-of-the-box,
> > all setup is optional
> >
> > * 7-Segment LED status display and 5 additional status LEDs show GNSS
> > status, fix status, signal strength, UTC time, and number of sats tracked
> >
> > * DIP switch for easy configuration of which GNSS systems should be
> > enabled, Position Hold mode versus 3D Mobile mode, etc (these settings can
> > be over-written by USB commands)
> >
> > * 1Hz to 10MHz+ buffered Synthesized (NCO) output that is
> > frequency-locked to the GNSS system, and can be easily configured through
> > the USB ports
> >
> > * Position Hold mode with Auto Survey, or full 3D mobile mode (selectable
> > via USB, Motorola binary command, or via the DIP switch), supporting full
> > Auto Kalman setup depending on vehicle dynamics (including auto-selection
> > of Carrier Phase versus Doppler tracking etc)
> >
> > You can find out more in the User Manual and Spec Sheet available here:
> >
> >
> > http://www.jackson-labs.com/assets/uploads/main/M12M_replacement_UserManual.pdf
> >
> >
> > and
> >
> >
> >
> > http://www.jackson-labs.com/assets/uploads/main/M12M_replacement_Specsheet.pdf
> >
> > We are making this unit available to Time Nuts users for a special pricing
> > of $185 per unit plus shipping. Pricing will revert to the list price of
> > $220 at the end of this month. We are asking for anyone using the M12+ or
> > M12M receivers in other than the Fury or XLI GPSDOs to help us test
> > compatibility with those systems, and hope to have as many different
> > products as possible tested out with your help.
> >
> >
> >
> > Please contact me OFFLINE(!) if you are interested in this unit.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Keith
> >
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Re: [time-nuts] Rohde & Schwarz GPSDO

[Tom Knox]

What is interesting is I spent a little time on the Manufactures Web Site and 
could find no AD or PN specs.
So even if you can find the down converter antenna, you have no idea how well 
it will perform.
I imagine it has a something like an Oscilloquartz 8663. No doubt as with 
almost all RS products it will be very high build quality.
Cheers;
Thomas Knox



> From: rbenw...@verizon.net
> To: time-nuts@febo.com
> Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 22:41:11 -0400
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Rohde & Schwarz GPSDO
> 
> That's why you can run 300meters of RG-58!  This is the "missing"
> antenna/converter unit.
> 
> https://www.meinbergglobal.com/english/products/gps-antenna-converter.htm
> 
> Here is one, this time with the antenna:
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Meinberg-ED170MP-GPS-Satellite-Disciplined-Atomic-Cl
> ock-10MHz-Oscillator-Antenna-/281560964740?hash=item418e575e84
> 
> Bob
> 
> >>> -Original Message-
> >>> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Arthur
> >>> Dent
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2015 7:46 AM
> >>> To: time-nuts@febo.com
> >>> Subject: [time-nuts] Rohde & Schwarz GPSDO
> >>> 
> >>> I believe that like a lot of the Meinberg receivers that this uses a
> down
> >>> converter to give an IF frequency of
> >>> 35.4 MHz. If you don't have the converter that apparently isn't included
> with
> >>> the receiver you have a $300 paperweight.
> >>> You might want to check with the seller before bidding.
> >>> 
> >>> -Arthur
> >>> ___
> >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
> >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >>> and follow the instructions there.
> >>> -
> >>> No virus found in this message.
> >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> >>> Version: 2015.0.6140 / Virus Database: 4435/10749 - Release Date:
> >>> 10/03/15
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Troubleshooting Fluke PM6681

[Tom Knox]

I am not sure if this could be related but I have worked on several of these 
and found the power supply caps can often be a problem and cause the instrument 
to display a wide range of issues related to the excess PS noise. This problem 
is more common with the 6681R which runs a bit hotter.
Cheers;
Thomas Knox



 Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 21:16:22 +0200
 From: mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org
 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 CC: mag...@rubidium.se
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Troubleshooting Fluke PM6681
 
 Ole,
 
 I checked with a former Pendulum employee, and free off memory, he 
 recommend trimming up the 100 MHz until Error 2 does not show. Sensing 
 it directly can be difficult, FET-probe essentially mandatory. 
 Indirectly a 10 MHz is possible. A problem is that trimming with the 
 hood off causes a different thermal setup than when the hood is on. If 
 you dare, make a hole in the hood so that you can trim it with the hood 
 on, that is what they did.
 
 CMOS backup battery eventually fails, and then you need to replace it 
 and re-calibrate it. I have the details jotted down, but it seems that 
 this is not your issue.
 
 Cheers,
 Magnus
 
 On 08/16/2015 12:20 PM, Ole Petter Ronningen wrote:
  Hello.
 
  I have a Fluke PM6681 that has issues. When I got it, it gave results all
  over the place, but after adjusting the 100Mhz multiplier-chain, it seems
  to be much better; at least I get std.deviationwell within spec using a
  split pulse to input A and B, 100 samples. I'd like to get it
  professionally calibrated, but I don't want to send it in with known issues
  - the cost of calibration will not be refunded if the instrument can not be
  calibrated, and I believe it is no longer repairable.
 
  So, the issue is that it fails the ASIC test (test 6), with err 2.The
  service-guide lists a number of signals to be checked in test-mode, but I
  am not able to see any of them. Since the counter seems to function, I can
  only conclude that the signals are not present due to this error.. (Or that
  I am mistreading the guide and looking in the wrong place, probably at
  least as likely..)
 
  Anyway, I cant seem to find a description of this particular error, does
  anyone know what it means?
 
  Thanks,
  Ole
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[time-nuts] Service manual or schematic for 1050A ?

[Tom Knox]

I was wondering if anyone has a service manual or schematic for any generation 
of the FTS, Datum, Symmetricom, Microsemi 1050A oscillator? I have several of 
these and although quite old still have state of the art performance, 
unfortunately I have several with PLL issues. Schematics and information on the 
physical configuration of the coaxial jumpers on different revisions would be 
great. 
Thanks;
Thomas Knox


  
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Re: [time-nuts] Current state of optical clocks and the definition of the second

[Tom Knox]

I think the key to this concept is an optical comb filter.  
Archita Hati of the Phase Noise measurement Group at NIST has been 
researching ultra low phase noise 5MHz references using an optical standard and 
comb filter 
as well as extensive RF components to down converting to the desired frequency. 
In experiments I believe she has achieved phase noise better then -154db @ 1Hz 
offset. 
It does appear to be the future but currently is far to large and complex for 
most if any 
practical use. I believe this link is the paper by Archita Hati I referred 
addressing 
State-of-the-Art RF Signal Generation From Optical Frequency Division. 
http://tf.boulder.nist.gov/general/pdf/2646.pdf
Enjoy;
Thomas Knox

Thomas Knox



 From: namic...@gmail.com
 Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 07:00:09 +1100
 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 CC: namic...@gmail.com
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Current state of optical clocks and the definition   
 of the second
 
 
 THe stability /accuracy of lasers is entirely dependent on the cavity length.
 Materials used are usually invar or silica, so you are no better off than 
 with a quartz crystals.
 They are just a resonant cavity.
 cheers, 
 Neville Michie
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Re: [time-nuts] Any reason not to use one power amplifier and splitter for distribution amplifier?

[Tom Knox]

Good point Bob, in my humble opinion Low Noise is about -115 @ 1 Hz dropping 
to about -165 @ 10KHz for 5 MHz about 3dB higher for 10MHz. Which from my 
testing will tax the noise floors of a fair number of application specific 
products.
It is true that most of these distribution amps sold today were designed at 
least a decade ago, so there may be chips today that can meet or exceed those 
products on paper for DIY projects but it will still be a challenge for most of 
us. Thanks for your input 
Thomas Knox


 From: kb...@n1k.org
 Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2015 19:59:39 -0500
 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Any reason not to use one power amplifier and
 splitter for distribution amplifier?
 
 Hi
 
 Any time you run into terms like “low noise” it pays to think about what that 
 means to you and your system. A quick scan of the posts here over the years 
 will show that different definitions of low noise do exist. The same is true 
 of system requirements. An offset that matters to one may have no impact at 
 all on another system.  
 
 In some cases -155 dbc/Hz at 10KHz or 100 KHz is “low noise”. In other cases 
 “low noise” is -180 dbc/Hz. In either case, *delivering* a clean signal 
 without spurs and crud is far from simple. In many long cable run cases, the 
 cost of fancy cables, high performance magnetics, and all the other “stuff” 
 is more than the cost of simply locking up a quiet oscillator on the end of a 
 “dirty” cable. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a setup that tries / needs to 
 “distribute”  -170 dbc/Hz signals over anything bigger than a rack. I’ve 
 seen *lots* of systems that regenerate those sort of signals many times over 
 (= in many different boxes) to get around distributing them. 
 
 Bob
 
 
  On Jan 5, 2015, at 2:15 PM, Tom Knox act...@hotmail.com wrote:
  
  Happy New Years All! I have seen a number of discussions on various 
  approaches to distribution amps discussed on Time-Nuts ranging from DYI to 
  products intended for Video. 
  I thought I my weigh in with one point of interest; It seems like long term 
  performance is pretty easy, but a low phase noise solution is quite a 
  different story. Looking at the number of application specific products 
  from MicroSemi/Symmetricom and other manufactures claimed and even more so 
  real world specs vary a great deal so apparently it s not easy to just 
  throw something together with great or even good close in phase noise.  So 
  depending on your labs direction in the future it may be worth researching 
  and investing in an application specific distribution amp. I like the 
  MicroSemi 4036B but there are a number of very good products out there on 
  the surplus market selling for a small fraction of their original cost. 
  Cheers;
  Thomas Knox
  
  
  
  From: bill.ric...@verizon.net
  To: time-nuts@febo.com
  Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2015 08:29:34 -0500
  Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Any reason not to use one power amplifier and 
  splitter for distribution amplifier?
  
  A cheap and dirty equivalent of a pass thru terminator that I use is a BNC 
  t
  connector with a 52 ohm bnc terminator.  I guess you could use a CATV 75 
  ohm
  F type with an adapter. Maybe that combination would produce too much
  garbage.
  
  73,
  
  Bill, WA2DVU
  Cape May
  
  
  
  ---
  This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
  http://www.avast.com
  
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Re: [time-nuts] Any reason not to use one power amplifier and splitter for distribution amplifier?

[Tom Knox]

Happy New Years All! I have seen a number of discussions on various approaches 
to distribution amps discussed on Time-Nuts ranging from DYI to products 
intended for Video. 
I thought I my weigh in with one point of interest; It seems like long term 
performance is pretty easy, but a low phase noise solution is quite a different 
story. Looking at the number of application specific products from 
MicroSemi/Symmetricom and other manufactures claimed and even more so real 
world specs vary a great deal so apparently it s not easy to just throw 
something together with great or even good close in phase noise.  So depending 
on your labs direction in the future it may be worth researching and investing 
in an application specific distribution amp. I like the MicroSemi 4036B but 
there are a number of very good products out there on the surplus market 
selling for a small fraction of their original cost. 
Cheers;
Thomas Knox



 From: bill.ric...@verizon.net
 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2015 08:29:34 -0500
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Any reason not to use one power amplifier and
 splitter for distribution amplifier?
 
 A cheap and dirty equivalent of a pass thru terminator that I use is a BNC t
 connector with a 52 ohm bnc terminator.  I guess you could use a CATV 75 ohm
 F type with an adapter. Maybe that combination would produce too much
 garbage.
 
 73,
 
 Bill, WA2DVU
 Cape May
 
 
 
 ---
 This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
 http://www.avast.com
 
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[time-nuts] Symmetricom/Datum cesium tube interchangeability

[Tom Knox]

Does anyone know if a Symmetricom/Datum cesium tube model 7613a/077 will plug 
and play in a 4065 clock? Or if not plug and play if they can be used in the 
4065 at all.
I have a couple 4065's with tired tubes and a fairly fresh 7613A. 
Thanks;
Thomas Knox


  
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[time-nuts] SSR-6Tr vs Lotus M12M

[Tom Knox]

Does anyone have experience with the Synergy SSR-6Tr and the fairly recent 
Lotus based M12M. It sounds like both are plug and play replacements for the 
Older M12M's. Both claim improved specs. Both my XLI and FEI Zyfer time and 
freq rec's use versions of the M12. Does anyone want to weigh in on which 
offers superior performance? 
Thanks and happy Memorial Day!

Thomas Knox

  
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Re: [time-nuts] Datum 4065A Cs Tube Response

[Tom Knox]

Hi 
Is this the right chip:
http://www.oemstrade.com/search/STEL-1173%252FCL/
At $65 it is pricy but a bargain if it fixes your clock.
Thomas Knox



 Date: Mon, 5 May 2014 15:14:16 -0600
 From: ed_pal...@sasktel.net
 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Datum 4065A Cs Tube Response
 
 I know very little about today's DDS chips, but I think that emulating 
 the STEL-1173 would be a challenge.  It provides 48 bit frequency 
 resolution.  I counted 13 different frequencies that are used to monitor 
 the signal to make sure that it's on frequency. Based on the manual, 
 they were shifting it many times per second. I'm not surprised the chip 
 died - they worked it to death!
 
 Ed
 
 On 5/5/2014 6:49 AM, paul swed wrote:
  I will agree with Joe. I have a CS tube thats darn near impossible to read
  the beam current and yet it still locks. That truly amazes me. I seem to
  recall other comments ages ago about that chip failing. There should be a
  way to emulate it these days with all of the DDS chips and such that are
  available.
  Good luck.
  Regards
  Paul.
  WB8TSL
 
 
  On Mon, May 5, 2014 at 8:20 AM, J. L. Trantham jlt...@att.net wrote:
 
  Ed,
 
  If I have the math correct, and you are measuring the voltage to ground
  through a 10 MegOhm input impedance DMM, you have about 7.5 nA beam current
  which seems a bit low compared to what I remember of the HP 5061A.
However,
  you still have a definable 'peak' with a 'peak to valley' voltage of about
  60 mV or a 'useful signal current' of about 6 nA.  If your unit's circuitry
  can properly amplify that and keep it a clean signal, it should work.
  However, I would recommend setting the OCXO precisely on frequency with a
  GPSDO before trying to close the loop and 'locking' the signal to the CS
  tube.  It will dramatically lower the work load of getting everything
  adjusted properly, particularly in a setting of low beam current.
 
  Somehow, the value of 40 nA sticks in my mind from the 5061A.  The 5061A
  manual says end of life of the HP CS tube is a peak beam current of 8 nA or
  less.  However, I have units with less current and they still lock.  The HP
  manual also says to measure the voltage at the output of the tube with a
  100
  MegOhm or higher input impedance DMM.  If yours is less, that may
  artificially lower your values.
 
  EOL of the tube is a multifactor issue, including Signal to Noise ratio and
  the 'useful signal current' to 'background current' ratio.  The 'background
  current' is what you see with no RF signal applied to the tube.  Have you
  measured that?  A ratio of 1 is EOL per the HP manual.  If yours is about
  4.5 nA, as suggested by the 'off peak' values shown, or less, you still
  have
  a useful signal and, hopefully, a useful tube.
 
  I'd recommend continuing with the repair.
 
  Good luck.
 
  Joe
 
  -Original Message-
  From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
  Behalf Of Ed Palmer
  Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 12:46 AM
  To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
  Subject: [time-nuts] Datum 4065A Cs Tube Response
 
  I'm playing with my first Cs standard.  It's a Datum 4065A which appears to
  have a dead STEL-1173 synthesizer.  Before I put too much effort into
  replacing that, I thought I'd check the tube and see if it has any life
  left.  I've attached a chart showing the response of the central peak.
 
  My methodology was similar to TVB's as shown here:
  http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/cspeak except that I measured the tube
  output directly with a digital voltmeter.  The system is reporting wildly
  varying levels for the beam current so I didn't want to use any of it's
  circuitry.
 
  Does this look like a usable tube?  Healthy or on it's last legs? What
  response levels are typical for a Datum 7504A tube?  I see that these
  levels
  are somewhat lower than those shown on leapsecond for the 5061A tube, but
  that could just be the specifics of the measurement.
 
  Thanks,
 
  Ed
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Re: [time-nuts] Symmetricom chip scale atomic clock

[Tom Knox]

Bringing a product as revolutionary as the CSAC at such a low price point is an 
amazing feat. It would be great if a product launch this innovative could go 
flawlessly but that is seldom the case. Problems are inevitable, but what 
defines a company in my humble opinion is how they address a problem if/when it 
does occur. Microsemi is showing class and professionalism in the way they are 
addressing this Sudden Failure issue. I am sure the exact problem will be 
isolated and resolved soon, and would have full confidence purchasing today 
knowing Microsemi 's outstanding staff and their commitment to customers. 
Thanks all at Microsemi for keeping the Time-Nuts in the loop.
Good Luck;
Thomas Knox



 Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 20:32:06 -0700
 From: jim...@earthlink.net
 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Symmetricom chip scale atomic clock
 
 On 4/24/14, 6:26 PM, Said Jackson wrote:
  Hi Magnus, Bob,
 
  Thanks much for your kind words.
 
  The failure rate is thankfully so low that we are not greatly alarmed, and 
  Microsemi has been a champ in resolving any failures with/for us when they 
  did show up. We are awaiting the results of the full re-qualify that 
  Microsemi is doing on the CSAC and were going to announce the issue at that 
  time..
 
 
 Sometimes it is the low failure rates which make it so troublesome. 
 Everyone gets excited, but the vast majority don't have the problem, but 
 then, every little anomaly or unexpected event prompts a is it the 
 failure...
 
 Good luck..
 
 JIm
 
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Re: [time-nuts] Symmetricom chip scale atomic clock

[Tom Knox]

For the sake of discussion let me just add that even if medesigns comments were 
true of Microsemi, the Microsemi responses on this form have been from long 
time Time-Nuts who have for years contributed their knowledge to the betterment 
of the community in the proudest traditions of acadimia. Never have I seen them 
use the form for financial gain. Sure corporate greed is a problem in todays 
society but knowing some of the individuals at Microsemi it is clearly not a 
black and white issue. Further where it may be acceptable in some cases to 
release a product early and perform some of the final development on the backs 
of the customers to better serve their needs such as in the case of the 
fantastic TimeLab.  In a mission critical product like the CSAC a problem 
like this will cost Microsemi far more then they would profit from a premature 
release. These manufacturing defects were clearly something they could not 
anticipate.   I for one will be purchasing many more Microsemi products 
 in the future and viewing their performance on TimeLab with full confidence. 
Please keep the group update on your progress resolving this issue. It will be 
interesting to see if a single point of failure is found, a smoking gun so to 
speak; or whether it will be resolved with a number of minor changes during 
product evolution. In any case I hope the problem is resolved quickly.

Thomas Knox



 Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2014 08:14:06 +0200
 From: att...@kinali.ch
 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Symmetricom chip scale atomic clock
 
 On Fri, 25 Apr 2014 08:33:06 +0300
 MailLists li...@medesign.ro wrote:
 
  The recently acquired cash cow isn't working exactly as 
  expected/advertised. We still don't have a clue when/if the fundamental 
  (as in physics laws) design (we can't officially blame the cheap Chinese 
  manufacturer) flaw will be fixed (manufacturer replaced), but as our 
  main customer, which is used to (literally) blow up tons of (others') 
  money, isn't very concerned (for now), and the profit margin is (still) 
  high enough to replace (no questions asked, for the time being) the 
  failed units of the other (civilian/commercial) customer(s).
 
 Sorry, but this is was not necessary.
 Not every company is evil and not every company just works for the
 short term bottom line.
 
 It is very normal that problems show up in series production which 
 were not visible before in the prototypes or pre-series production.
 It's part of the very nature how volume production work. And no, 
 you cannot always attriubute it to less care taken in the volume
 production than in the pre-series. Some flaws are only visible if
 you get enough produced and then it's still one in a couple hundred
 if not a one in a couple hundred thousand.
 
 Every product i was ever involved with had some flaws uncovered during
 series production. Even if the gratest care was taken. IMHO it does not
 matter whether the product has a shows suddenly a flaw or not, but how
 the manufacturer reacts to it. And as it seems Microsemi is replacing
 the failing units without causing trouble. 
 
 Also, please be aware that fixing a flaw that only very few units show
 is not an easy thing. You cannot just build a prototype and be sure
 that the bug is gone. You have to first produce enough to have a statistical
 significant sample size. This all takes time, weeks, months, or even years.
 
 
 So, please refrain from spreading false rumors that anyone is ignoring the
 issue when aparently the contrary is the case.
 
 
   Attila Kinali
 
 PS: Disclaimer: i neither work for or have any ties with Microsemi or 
 Jacksonlabs.
 
 -- 
 I pity people who can't find laughter or at least some bit of amusement in
 the little doings of the day. I believe I could find something ridiculous
 even in the saddest moment, if necessary. It has nothing to do with being
 superficial. It's a matter of joy in life.
   -- Sophie Scholl
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Re: [time-nuts] Wenzel oscillator - L1 value?

[Tom Knox]

Does adding these filter elements lower Q or affect Phase Noise?
Thanks;

Thomas Knox



 From: li...@rtty.us
 Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2014 17:47:26 -0400
 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Wenzel oscillator - L1 value?
 
 Hi
 
 Roughly (very roughly) speaking, the series combination of C1, C2, C3 and L1 
 should equal the load capacitance of the crystal. If there is a varicap, it’s 
 likely in series as well. If the crystal is cut for series, then L1 resonates 
 with the caps in series. 
 
 You can put it on a Spice program and get more accurate results. 
 
 Bob
 
 On Apr 23, 2014, at 10:23 AM, li...@philpem.me.uk wrote:
 
  Hi,
  I'm currently playing around with crystal oscillators (specifically a 
  homebrew OCXO) and came across the Wenzel low-distortion crystal oscillator:
  http://www.wenzel.com/pdffiles1/pdfs/xtalosc.pdf
  
  This uses an inductor (L1) to trim the crystal frequency, with the note 
  that a varactor/varicap could be added to allow the frequency to be trimmed 
  electronically.
  
  Has anyone built one of these oscillators?
  
  How would you pick a value for L1? I've been reading up on other crystal 
  oscillator types (Colpitts, Clapp,...) and have yet to find anything which 
  uses this style of frequency trimming.
  
  Where would I add the varactor if I wanted to add EFC? Across C3?
  
  Thanks.
  -- 
  Phil.
  phil...@philpem.me.uk
  http://www.philpem.me.uk/
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Re: [time-nuts] hp 54600a and rs-232

[Tom Knox]

This may help: 
http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/54652-97004.pdf

Thomas Knox



 From: coll...@navcanada.ca
 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 07:21:22 -0400
 Subject: [time-nuts] hp 54600a and rs-232
 
 While only related to time nuttery in the sense of the hp 54600a being an 
 instrument (oscilloscope) which we nuts might use make some meaningful 
 measurements, I am hoping that members of this list vast knowledge of many 
 such instruments may be able to help or at least point me in the right 
 direction.
 
 I recently obtained a hp 54600a digital oscilloscope in very good condition 
 and while not a modern whiz bang high bandwidth and high speed instrument it 
 is quite capable and compliments my old Tektronix 5440 scope quite nicely.
 
 My 54600a has the basic RS-232 interface module which seems to work OK. I am 
 able to select print screen and send data from the scope to an HP plotter 
 or printer - computer actually which collects the data stream and converts 
 the hgl data into a png file using a simple script.
 
 However, my attempts at getting the scope to respond to commands via the 
 RS-232 serial interface are for naught. I am using a USB to RS-232 converter 
 and an appropriate null modem cable. I don't have a proper serial port to try 
 however.
 
 When I send commands to the scope it will display framing error or 
 overrun or rs-232 error (113) or rs-232 error (118) (I can't find 
 either error code listed in the hp documents).
 
 Being able to capture a screen dump is my primary concern and I am able to 
 do so, controlling the scope via rs-232 as I might using a gpib/hpib 
 interface is only secondary  but still, it would be nice to know why my 
 limited attempts have so far not worked.
 
 Ideas? Comments? Suggestions?
 
 
 Cheers, Graham ve3gtc
 
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Re: [time-nuts] Software for use HP 82350B gpib card.

[Tom Knox]

The 82350B is  not national instruments IEEE488.2 compatible? 
Thomas Knox



 From: ct1...@gmail.com
 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 12:58:08 +0100
 Subject: [time-nuts] Software for use HP 82350B gpib card.
 
 Hi,
 
 I need any software to work with HP5335a or hp 5370B witch work with the
 82350B gpib card.
 Timelab only works with national instruments IEEE488.2 compatible devices.
 Can anyone help?
 
 Rui Martins
 
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Re: [time-nuts] Software for use HP 82350B gpib card.

[Tom Knox]

I am not an expert but have used the 82350B with Labview on a regular basis 
with no problems. Have you installed the Agilent I/O Libraries.

Best Wishes;
Thomas Knox



 Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 08:21:08 -0700
 From: j...@quikus.com
 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Software for use HP 82350B gpib card.
 
 FWIW, the HP GPIB cards are only really useful with a complete HP system
 that runs HP special software in a complete computer controlled
 instrument.
 
 If that is not your intent, get a NI or compatible card. It'll be far
 easier in the long run.
 
 YMMV,
 
 -John
 
 ===
 
 
 
  Hi,
 
  I need any software to work with HP5335a or hp 5370B witch work with the
  82350B gpib card.
  Timelab only works with national instruments IEEE488.2 compatible devices.
  Can anyone help?
 
  Rui Martins
 
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Re: [time-nuts] Water on Enceladus - What does this imply about NASA'a ability to measure frequency?

[Tom Knox]

You are correct. I did most in my head late last night and kind of lost my 
focus as I was finishing. I was attempting to see roughly what timing accuracy 
was needed.  I meant to end the sentence with a question mark.

Thomas Knox



 Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 13:01:12 +0100
 From: drkir...@gmail.com
 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Water on Enceladus - What does this imply about 
 NASA'a ability to measure frequency?
 
 On 4 Apr 2014 08:55, Tom Knox act...@hotmail.com wrote:
 
   90 microns  is approx a freq res of about 1 x 3.66 -12
 
  Thomas Knox
 
 Since the Doppler shift is prortional to the frequency,  I can't see how
 one can determine the absolute frequency.
 
 But given light travels at 3e8 m/s and they can resolve 9e-5 m/s, I would
 have thought that the frequency resolution needed was  9e-5/3e8=3e-13. We
 are differing by more than a factor of 10.
 
 Dave
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Re: [time-nuts] 3.0GHz Channel 3 installation in Agilent 53132A Counter

[Tom Knox]

Jim the 5 and 12.8GHz modules are the same part and the software/firmware set 
the upper freq limit. I assume at least the 12.8 GHz option must be 
unlocked/accessed most likely through the key pad. The 5GHz may be plug and 
play.

Thomas Knox



 From: jsrobb...@earthlink.net
 Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 18:00:09 -0400
 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: [time-nuts] 3.0GHz Channel 3 installation in Agilent 53132A Counter
 
 I think I may need to clarify my prior posting.
 
 Both old and new Channel 3 boards work fine (and read correctly) in my older 
 53132A counter.
 
 Both old and new Channel 3 boards fail to work properly in (and read 4x 
 actual) the newer 53132A counter.
 
 So I think the problem is in the newer main 53132A box.
 
 As far as my understanding of the division ratios, I understand my error now. 
  Thank you Dave (and some others).
 
 I have done some further testing and discovered one of HP/Agilent's little 
 tricks.  The main counter board channel 3 ribbon cable socket pin numbering 
 does not conform to the channel 3 board ribbon cable socket numbering (they 
 are crisscrossed).  (I can supply the shifted numbers if anyone is 
 interested.)
 
 However, my search for suspected unwanted zero ohm resistors left in the new 
 box (to set the counter up for a 5 or 12.5GHz channel 3) has resulted in no 
 joy and only a large headache and sore eyes:(  
 
 Thanks everyone for trying to help here.  It was supposed to be a plug and 
 play addition to my counter.  So much for the plan.
 
 Jim Robbins
 N1JR
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Re: [time-nuts] 3.0GHz Channel 3 installation in Agilent 53132A counter

[Tom Knox]

I think the solution will be in the firmware. It must be factory set so default 
is the 5GHz C channel option. The 12GHz option is the same part as the 5GHz 
sampler with a different firmware lock.
Best Wishes;
Thomas Knox



 From: jsrobb...@earthlink.net
 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 14:19:14 -0400
 Subject: [time-nuts] 3.0GHz Channel 3 installation in Agilent 53132A counter
 
 I hope this is not too OT.
 
  
 
 I have acquired a 3.0GHz original Channel 3 board for my Agilent 53132A
 counter.  When installed, it reads four times (4x) the actual frequency.
 I'm wondering if anyone has any experience with such an installation and can
 point me to some setup item or zero ohm resistor I'm supposed to install.
 All that the manual says is to have it done by the factory.  That will cost
 me more than the board itself.  Many thanks.
 
  
 
 Jim Robbins
 
 N1JR
 
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Re: [time-nuts] Power Supply for AD9852 / AD9854

[Tom Knox]

I do not know if this is of interest or would be applicable. Wenzel uses their 
Finesse Voltage Regulator in many products which I may be better described as 
active noise cancelling regulator.


 From: albertson.ch...@gmail.com
 Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2014 22:36:23 -0700
 To: t...@patoka.org; time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Power Supply for AD9852 / AD9854
 
 On Sat, Mar 15, 2014 at 9:21 PM, d0ct0r t...@patoka.org wrote:
 
 
 
  Many thanks indeed for detailed answer ! Yes, I will using Evaluation
  Board for my project.
 
 
 Then it is already done for you.  They have added all the bypass caps
 already on the board.  Not much left for you to do.  In fact you can't do
 anything because all the important design work happens within millimeters
 of the power and ground pins.
 
 -- 
 
 Chris Albertson
 Redondo Beach, California
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Re: [time-nuts] Power Supply for AD9852 / AD9854

[Tom Knox]

Sorry, I forgot to add the link:
http://www.wenzel.com/documents/finesse.html


Thomas Knox



 From: act...@hotmail.com
 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2014 09:46:04 -0600
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Power Supply for AD9852 / AD9854
 
 I do not know if this is of interest or would be applicable. Wenzel uses 
 their Finesse Voltage Regulator in many products which I may be better 
 described as active noise cancelling regulator.
 
 
  From: albertson.ch...@gmail.com
  Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2014 22:36:23 -0700
  To: t...@patoka.org; time-nuts@febo.com
  Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Power Supply for AD9852 / AD9854
  
  On Sat, Mar 15, 2014 at 9:21 PM, d0ct0r t...@patoka.org wrote:
  
  
  
   Many thanks indeed for detailed answer ! Yes, I will using Evaluation
   Board for my project.
  
  
  Then it is already done for you.  They have added all the bypass caps
  already on the board.  Not much left for you to do.  In fact you can't do
  anything because all the important design work happens within millimeters
  of the power and ground pins.
  
  -- 
  
  Chris Albertson
  Redondo Beach, California
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Re: [time-nuts] Mains frequency

[Tom Knox]

So we know there are deviations in line freq. But it seems strange in this era 
of very accurate and inexpensive freq references.
How much is related to the generation? It seems in this era of switching 
supplies and other complex loads that even if the power were perfect at the 
generator the phase/freq could vary widely across the grid as different parts 
of the sine wave are loaded in a non linear fashion. And could a small digital 
signal be added to the smart grid that would control switching supplies to 
correct rather then degrade the grid signal?

Thomas Knox



 Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 16:39:50 +0100
 From: mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org
 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Mains frequency
 
 Tom,
 
 On 18/11/13 23:15, Tom Van Baak wrote:
  Magnus,
 
  I'm going to push back a bit on your mains sampling claim. Mostly, I'd like 
  to see the results of the professional I-Q demodulated gear that you 
  mentioned. Can you post raw data, or a sample plot?
 
 I don't have much of that myself. I do recommend you to check the 
 presentations of the NASPI conference (naspi.org). There is plenty of 
 plots there.
 
  I agree that looking at power line voltage with 16- or 24-bits at 1 Msps is 
  going to reveal interesting amplitude and phase noise information. But see 
  how well a $1 PIC can do.
 
 Well, I should toss that over to the good folk at NIST doing 
 synchrophasor calibrations. Should I grab them now that we are in the 
 same room?
 
 Have a look at IEEE C37.118.1 for measurement methods.
 
  Attached is a plot made using TimeLab + picPET just now. The picPET is fast 
  enough to capture the zero-crossing of every 60 Hz cycle with 400 ns 
  resolution; the TimeLab plots have tau0 of 16.67 ms.
 
  -- The blue trace was simply plugging a 9 VAC wall-wart into the picPET 
  though a 10k resistor.
  -- The pink trace was adding a 10 nF cap across the input.
  -- The green trace was unplugging my laptop switching power supply from the 
  same outlet!
  -- The red trace is replacing the mains wall-wart with a hp 33120A set to 
  9VAC at 60 Hz, a tentative noise floor measurement of the picPET when used 
  this way.
 
  My conclusions are that at least here in the US, or at least at my house, 
  the short-term stability of mains hits about 5e-6, at about tau 0.2 
  seconds. The attached short-term plot is also not-inconsistent with the 
  long-term plot at http://leapsecond.com/pages/mains/
 
  My other conclusion is that the picPET (a simple PIC-based time-stamping 
  counter) is doing a pretty good job measuring this. Note, no software or 
  data filtering was used. This is just raw serial/USB data going into 
  TimeLab.
 
 Well, if you are happy with that, fine. But there are many things 
 happening on the grid which needs deep analysis and the tools for it has 
 been developed to provide both resolution and removal of noise which is 
 not part of the measurments. Just calibrating the trigger noise for a 
 PMU requires care, as the S/N required for a straight comparator for the 
 applications is several tens of dBs away from a good conditions, so they 
 have had issues with doing that.
 
 Doing your own time-stamping like you have done is naturally fun, but do 
 not confuse it with the experience and processing that have been shown 
 needed by an industry.
 
 BTW. WECC, who has a large network of PMUs, and that covers where you 
 have your house and measurement point, can't release detailed data to me 
 or you just for fun. It always needs to be cleared from a security point 
 of view.
 
 Cheers,
 Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811 - 60165 Info Request

[Tom Knox]

1 - BRN Oscillator Return (Com)
2 - RED Oscillator Power (+12V)
3 - ORG Oven Monitor Return (Com)
4 - YEL Oven Monitor Output
5 - GRN Oven Power (+18-24V)
6 - BLU Oven Return (Com)

Thomas Knox



 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 From: johncr...@aol.com
 Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 14:17:58 -0400
 Subject: [time-nuts] HP 10811 - 60165 Info Request
 
 I have acquired one of these double oven oscillators. Seems like a useful 
 thing. Need info on pin outs, and operating voltages. Also any other useful 
 information or links to same would be appreciated. Please reply off list with 
 any files of specs etc to my email - johncr...@aol.com
 
 All help appreciated.   
 
 Best regards to all john c roos k6iql
 
 
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811 - 60165 Info Request

[Tom Knox]

Thanks to TVB for hosting this manual containing info for most models of the 
venerable 10811.
 
http://www.leapsecond.com/museum/10811a/10811a.pdf
Thomas Knox



 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 From: johncr...@aol.com
 Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 14:17:58 -0400
 Subject: [time-nuts] HP 10811 - 60165 Info Request
 
 I have acquired one of these double oven oscillators. Seems like a useful 
 thing. Need info on pin outs, and operating voltages. Also any other useful 
 information or links to same would be appreciated. Please reply off list with 
 any files of specs etc to my email - johncr...@aol.com
 
 All help appreciated.   
 
 Best regards to all john c roos k6iql
 
 
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Re: [time-nuts] HP53131A Fan/Blower

[Tom Knox]

Sorry I have not been following this thread closely. Isn't the fan a fairly 
standard size? If not what is unique about it?
There is a good chance I have a few around.
You are welcome to contact me directly act...@hotmail.com
Best Wishes;
Thomas Knox



 Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2014 15:35:19 -0800
 From: tonygreen...@inbox.com
 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: [time-nuts] HP53131A Fan/Blower
 
 Has anyone found a suitable replacement or a source for the fan/blower in the 
 HP53131A ?  I have talked to Agilent and the fan/blower is not a seperate 
 item, its part of the power supply board.
 
 
 TRY FREE IM TOOLPACK at http://www.imtoolpack.com/default.aspx?rc=if5
 Capture screenshots, upload images, edit and send them to your friends
 through IMs, post on Twitter®, Facebook®, MySpace™, LinkedIn® – FAST!
 
 
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Re: [time-nuts] A small piece on HP's hydrogen maser in 1968

[Tom Knox]

HP was always a class act, proven by the classic Woody wagons used to 
transport gear in the photos.
 

Thomas Knox



 To: time-nuts@febo.com; p...@petelancashire.com
 From: p...@phk.freebsd.dk
 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 16:17:23 +
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] A small piece on HP's hydrogen maser in 1968
 
 In message 
 caa-f0u_jbz5dyb+hacmwfpkz6vhfo7arz+jpsmhrt9uss2n...@mail.gmail.com
 , Pete Lancashire writes:
 
 http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/abouthp/histnfacts/publications/measure/pdf/1968_09.pdf
 
 pages 8  9
 
 As far as I know, those satellites never made it to orbit ?
 
 Also:  You can just see the writer twist his brain in order to get
 to that final punch-line :-)
 
 -- 
 Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
 FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
 Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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Re: [time-nuts] strange behavior of 53230A or is the light on, but nobody in?

[Tom Knox]

I hope I have not come off sounding like that Said, I simply would like to see 
a great product better,  I am hoping/committed to work with Agilent toward a 
better product if they are interested. And in the past I have found they are 
interested in our feedback. The 53132A was revolutionary in it's day, but with 
advances in time and freq there is now a market for a 14 or 15 digit counter. 
I am still attempting to individually characterize each item in my time and 
freq system and understand their strengths and weaknesses. And hope to learn 
more about the 53230A in the coming weeks. But TVB's comments in particular 
seemed consistent with my impressions so far.
I would welcome your thoughts on the 53230A.
Thanks;l
Thomas Knox



 CC: time-nuts@febo.com
 From: saidj...@aol.com
 Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2014 08:25:28 -0800
 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] strange behavior of 53230A or is the light on,   
 but nobody in?
 
 Mike,
 
 They are already giving you another way to calibrate the unit, different from 
 how you think they should have done it and you are pulling out the statist 
 card and accusing them of being greedy capitalists?
 
 Come on, thats backseat driving. Be happy they invested millions of their own 
 money and put out a more or less affordable new counter in a market flooded 
 with good low-cost used counters.
 
 Bye,
 Said
 
 Sent From iPhone
 
 On Feb 19, 2014, at 0:33, mike cook michael.c...@sfr.fr wrote:
 
  
  Le 19 févr. 2014 à 01:05, Tom Knox a écrit :
  
  Thanks Tom and Bob, I have been thinking of contacting Agilent for some 
  time. I think they are a great company with some good products, but there 
  are a few real blind spots in some current products. I also have seen in 
  the past a genuine interest in listening. I would be willing to approach 
  them if I could enlist your help in addressing potential changes to 
  improve the product. 
  Thanks;
  Thomas Knox
  
If they are steering the VCXXO,OCXO from the Ext. Ref. , then they are in 
  effect calibrating it. Why not remember the applied EFC when they get phase 
  lock?  That can be applied when the internal timebase is selected. 
  It couldn't be that they might lose the chance to sell a signal generator 
  ;-), as calibration needs a square wave input, and the Ext. Ref In is 
  ignored.
  
  
  From: li...@rtty.us
  Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2014 18:00:17 -0500
  To: time-nuts@febo.com
  Subject: Re: [time-nuts] strange behavior of 53230A or is the light on,   
   but nobody in?
  
  Hi
  
  Well at least this got me digging a little. 
  
  If you grab a copy of the 53230A spec sheet and look under the external 
  reference input, it’s pretty well described. It will accept 1, 5,10 MHz 
  as an external reference. It will lock over a 1 ppm range with the XO 
  option and 0.1 ppm with the OCXO option. Based on that I’d guess they are 
  still using the same basic PLL approach as on the older counters (5335 
  era). 
  
  The “Microsoft Windows inside” sticker on the back of the counter was a 
  bit of a surprise ….
  
   No sticker on mine. 
  
  
  Bob
  
  On Feb 18, 2014, at 11:51 AM, Tom Van Baak (lab) t...@leapsecond.com 
  wrote:
  
  TomK,
  
  If anyone has technical contacts deep within Agilent, let's see if this 
  issue can be resolved. I would have bought a 53230A when it came out a 
  few years ago but my eval units showed this clock noise problem. That 
  plus the poor quality of the ref out made me think the designers were 
  cutting corners, or had little experience in metrology, or maybe they 
  thought this was ok for a bench instrument.
  
  Otherwise it's a really nice counter; the first one from Agilent than 
  can actually do ADEV properly (since it is a time stamping counter).
  
  I should dig out my old data and send it to you. Maybe as group we can 
  help them fix the problem.
  
  /tvb
  
  On Feb 18, 2014, at 12:10 AM, Tom Knox act...@hotmail.com wrote:
  
  I have asked Agilent 
  if stock versions of the 53230A and 53132A switched the internal 
  oscillator out of circuit with an Ext Ref signal 
  applied. I thought 
  Agilent's engineer was intentionally vague but said the oscillators were
  indeed switched out of circuit on the counter with Ext Ref signal 
  applied. These questions were related to several 53132A's I have seen 
  configured with a small board back near the Ext Ref input (OPT H01 I 
  think) that appeared to Switch the internal reference out of circuit. 
  Agilent would not share information on the option. My question to 
  Agilent is why sell an option and be unwilling to say what it does or 
  how your stock unit functions?
  Thomas Knox
  
  
  
  From: t...@leapsecond.com
  Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2014 09:38:28 -1000
  To: time-nuts@febo.com
  Subject: Re: [time-nuts] strange behavior of 53230A or is the light 
  on,but nobody in?
  
  Bob,
  
  I'm wondering if you (or any else) has measured the PLL performance of 
  the 53230-series?
  
  I agree

Re: [time-nuts] strange behavior of 53230A or is the light on, but nobody in?

[Tom Knox]

I have asked Agilent 
if stock versions of the 53230A and 53132A switched the internal oscillator out 
of circuit with an Ext Ref signal 
applied. I thought 
Agilent's engineer was intentionally vague but said the oscillators were
indeed switched out of circuit on the counter with Ext Ref signal applied. 
These questions were related to several 53132A's I have seen configured with a 
small board back near the Ext Ref input (OPT H01 I think) that appeared to 
Switch the internal reference out of circuit. Agilent would not share 
information on the option. My question to Agilent is why sell an option and be 
unwilling to say what it does or how your stock unit functions?
Thomas Knox



 From: t...@leapsecond.com
 Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2014 09:38:28 -1000
 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] strange behavior of 53230A or is the light on,   
 but nobody in?
 
 Bob,
 
 I'm wondering if you (or any else) has measured the PLL performance of the 
 53230-series?
 
 I agree it will clean up the crud but this assumes the ext ref is dirtier 
 than the internal osc.
 
 What I found instead was that if you use a good external ref the PLL actually 
 makes it worse. This was very disappointing. The XO version of the counter 
 performed worse than the OCXO version even with a maser as the ext reference. 
 Did your reading of the schematic show a way to directly use the ext ref, 
 bypassing the noisy PLL?
 
 The other thing I found was that the ref out signal was a very polluted copy 
 of the ref in.
 
 /tvb (i5s)
 
  On Feb 17, 2014, at 7:04 AM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote:
  
  Hi
  
  If you dig into the schematics (when they supplied them … ):
  
  The external reference goes into a phase detector. It’s one of those 
  digital ones that can lock up to many inputs. You could feed 3. MHz 
  in as a standard input as well as 0.5, 1, 2.5, 5, and 10 MHz. The internal 
  oscillator (or an internal oscillator) is phase locked to the external 
  input through a fairly narrow analog loop. The idea is to clean up the crud 
  on the standard line. 
  
  With no external reference, the PLL drops out and you go back to what ever 
  the local reference is. 
  
  Yes there’s a little more to it than that and no the circuit is not exactly 
  the same on every counter HP ever made. 
  
  Bob
  
  On Feb 17, 2014, at 7:55 AM, wb6bnq wb6...@cox.net wrote:
  
  Hi Mike,
  
  The most likely answer is when you select external time base for an input, 
  it disables the connection for the internal oscillator.  The external 
  input signal is probably also routed straight to the reference output jack.
  
  However, it would be good to read the manual, as they usually cover how 
  those connections work.  Otherwise, perhaps someone that owns one could 
  provide further insight.
  
  BillWB6BNQ
  
  mike cook wrote:
  
  Something that must be simple to explain, but that I can't get my head 
  round.
  
  I got a new 53230A.
  When first using it, I measured my T-Bolt 10MHz using the internal 10MHz 
  timebase and it came up short of 10MHz, 9.999 998 5xx. I wasn't worried 
  about it as the counter only has a TCXO internal oscillator. So I fired 
  up my PRS10 and after leaving that on for some time, connected it to  Ext 
  Ref. , changed to the ext time base and measured again. This time 
  10.000.000.00x. Then I switched the two references, measuring the PRS10 
  against the T-Bolt. Again I got 10MHz down to the 11th digit.
  All that looked good so I have been using it with either the PRS10 locked 
  to GPS, or the T-Bolt as the external time base.
  
  After leaving it on (but not inactive) for a month, I did an Autocal. No 
  problem.
  I was wondering if that would have changed the internal time base 
  frequency, but no, using that still gave similar figures to the above.
  
  So at that point I decided to measure the Internal TB against my 
  reference. So I connected the Int. Ref. Out to channel 1, connected my 
  PRS10 ref to Ext. Ref In, selected the EXT time base and found that the 
  count was 10MHz dead on?  I don't get that at all.
  
  in summary:
  DUT against internal TB counts  10MHz.To me that means that the 
  internal timebase is a bit fast. Is that assumption correct?
  DUT against Ext.Ref counts 10MHz
  Internal TB against Ext.Ref counts 10MHz.   If my assumption above is 
  correct, the count should be greater than 10MHz, no?
  
  Can anyone shed any light on that?
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
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Re: [time-nuts] strange behavior of 53230A or is the light on, but nobody in?

[Tom Knox]

Thanks Tom and Bob, I have been thinking of contacting Agilent for some time. I 
think they are a great company with some good products, but there are a few 
real blind spots in some current products. I also have seen in the past a 
genuine interest in listening. I would be willing to approach them if I could 
enlist your help in addressing potential changes to improve the product. 
Thanks;
Thomas Knox



 From: li...@rtty.us
 Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2014 18:00:17 -0500
 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] strange behavior of 53230A or is the light on,   
 but nobody in?
 
 Hi
 
 Well at least this got me digging a little. 
 
 If you grab a copy of the 53230A spec sheet and look under the external 
 reference input, it’s pretty well described. It will accept 1, 5,10 MHz as an 
 external reference. It will lock over a 1 ppm range with the XO option and 
 0.1 ppm with the OCXO option. Based on that I’d guess they are still using 
 the same basic PLL approach as on the older counters (5335 era). 
 
 The “Microsoft Windows inside” sticker on the back of the counter was a bit 
 of a surprise ….
 
 Bob
 
 On Feb 18, 2014, at 11:51 AM, Tom Van Baak (lab) t...@leapsecond.com wrote:
 
  TomK,
  
  If anyone has technical contacts deep within Agilent, let's see if this 
  issue can be resolved. I would have bought a 53230A when it came out a few 
  years ago but my eval units showed this clock noise problem. That plus the 
  poor quality of the ref out made me think the designers were cutting 
  corners, or had little experience in metrology, or maybe they thought this 
  was ok for a bench instrument.
  
  Otherwise it's a really nice counter; the first one from Agilent than can 
  actually do ADEV properly (since it is a time stamping counter).
  
  I should dig out my old data and send it to you. Maybe as group we can help 
  them fix the problem.
  
  /tvb
  
  On Feb 18, 2014, at 12:10 AM, Tom Knox act...@hotmail.com wrote:
  
  I have asked Agilent 
  if stock versions of the 53230A and 53132A switched the internal 
  oscillator out of circuit with an Ext Ref signal 
  applied. I thought 
  Agilent's engineer was intentionally vague but said the oscillators were
  indeed switched out of circuit on the counter with Ext Ref signal applied. 
  These questions were related to several 53132A's I have seen configured 
  with a small board back near the Ext Ref input (OPT H01 I think) that 
  appeared to Switch the internal reference out of circuit. Agilent would 
  not share information on the option. My question to Agilent is why sell an 
  option and be unwilling to say what it does or how your stock unit 
  functions?
  Thomas Knox
  
  
  
  From: t...@leapsecond.com
  Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2014 09:38:28 -1000
  To: time-nuts@febo.com
  Subject: Re: [time-nuts] strange behavior of 53230A or is the light on,   
   but nobody in?
  
  Bob,
  
  I'm wondering if you (or any else) has measured the PLL performance of 
  the 53230-series?
  
  I agree it will clean up the crud but this assumes the ext ref is 
  dirtier than the internal osc.
  
  What I found instead was that if you use a good external ref the PLL 
  actually makes it worse. This was very disappointing. The XO version of 
  the counter performed worse than the OCXO version even with a maser as 
  the ext reference. Did your reading of the schematic show a way to 
  directly use the ext ref, bypassing the noisy PLL?
  
  The other thing I found was that the ref out signal was a very polluted 
  copy of the ref in.
  
  /tvb (i5s)
  
  On Feb 17, 2014, at 7:04 AM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote:
  
  Hi
  
  If you dig into the schematics (when they supplied them … ):
  
  The external reference goes into a phase detector. It’s one of those 
  digital ones that can lock up to many inputs. You could feed 3. 
  MHz in as a standard input as well as 0.5, 1, 2.5, 5, and 10 MHz. The 
  internal oscillator (or an internal oscillator) is phase locked to the 
  external input through a fairly narrow analog loop. The idea is to clean 
  up the crud on the standard line. 
  
  With no external reference, the PLL drops out and you go back to what 
  ever the local reference is. 
  
  Yes there’s a little more to it than that and no the circuit is not 
  exactly the same on every counter HP ever made. 
  
  Bob
  
  On Feb 17, 2014, at 7:55 AM, wb6bnq wb6...@cox.net wrote:
  
  Hi Mike,
  
  The most likely answer is when you select external time base for an 
  input, it disables the connection for the internal oscillator.  The 
  external input signal is probably also routed straight to the reference 
  output jack.
  
  However, it would be good to read the manual, as they usually cover how 
  those connections work.  Otherwise, perhaps someone that owns one could 
  provide further insight.
  
  BillWB6BNQ
  
  mike cook wrote:
  
  Something that must be simple to explain, but that I can't get my head 
  round.
  
  I got a new 53230A.
  When

[time-nuts] Resistors in VCO

[Tom Knox]

Hi everyone, some VC oscillators I have played with keep trimmer resistor in 
circuit to adjust the EFC close enough for the PLL to work. I was wondering if 
changing to more stable resistors could improve ADEV and P/N performance.  Also 
could this add stability if used to divide the loop voltage. It seems foil 
resistors are exceptional in many ways. Do most high end oscillators already 
use foil?
On a unrelated but far more important thought, Make sure you remember to do 
something nice for that special women or man in your life today. The life you 
save may be your own.

Thomas Knox


  
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Re: [time-nuts] How to open solder-sealed OCXOs?

[Tom Knox]

It has been a long time since I opened one of these, but at the time I remember 
thinking it must be possible to open one of these without deforming it. Like 
anything correct technique must be the key. Companies like Wenzel do this on a 
daily basis and I would guess their technique would include a hotplate or hot 
air reflow.  I think it is possible open with minimal deforming of the metal 
case even with a regular solder station by wicking one side and and sliding 
paper or other thin material to keep the solder from re-tacking when you heat 
the next side.

Thomas Knox



 From: albertson.ch...@gmail.com
 Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2014 09:28:28 -0800
 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] How to open solder-sealed OCXOs?
 
 I've not opened on of these cans but I have opened some shield audio
 transmitters.  I just use my Hakko temperature controlled solder station at
 a high setting and work my way around the edge.  It can be done
 non-detructivly.  Solder wick helps a lot, use a bunch of it to get rid of
 the excess solder.  The tiny tip on a temperature controlled solder
 pencil does not look very powerful but the temperer controller will crank
 up the watts to whatever is required for the job.   I think mine limits out
 at 80W.  So just a normal solder station can work.   It works for both the
 muMetal cans and the steel cans
 
 
 On Sun, Feb 2, 2014 at 8:53 AM, ewkeh...@aol.com wrote:
 
  Hi
  I use wire cutters like on a Morion I find a small lip and start pealing it
   away. No trauma for the OCXO and simple.
  Bert Kehren
 
 
  In a message dated 2/2/2014 10:07:36 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
  li...@rtty.us writes:
 
  Hi
 
  If you are tossing the can, a mill is by far the best way  to open up an
  OCXO. That of course assumes you have a mill...
 
  It's not a  chip intensive process. You can easily do it with an X/Y table
  on a drill  press. Of course that assumes you have all of that  stuff
 
  Bob
 
  On Feb 2, 2014, at 2:37 AM, Stewart Cobb  stewart.c...@gmail.com wrote:
 
   What's the best way to open  an OCXO in the typical solder-sealed tinned
   steel can?  I don't  mind destroying the can itself, as long as the
  innards
   are not harmed.  The goal is to run some experiments with thermal
  impedance
   as  discussed here last week, and to ovenize parts of the EFC controller
  for
   better stability.
  
   Cheers!
   --Stu
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 -- 
 
 Chris Albertson
 Redondo Beach, California
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Re: [time-nuts] Replacement fan in SR620

[Tom Knox]

A little off topic but It seems many instruments (the SR620 and 53132A 
included) would work best with an internal fan. (A closed system, not 
exchanging outside air). Possibly with some sort of internal/external heat sink 
if needed. Or in high power situations outside air would flow through  a hollow 
heatsink (again not exchanging outside and internal air). If nothing else this 
would keep dust out. Since fan filters can really restrict air-flow and without 
a filter dust on circuit boards can act as on thermal insulator leading to 
overheating while conducting static.
Thomas Knox



 Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2014 19:17:03 +0100
 From: mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org
 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Replacement fan in SR620
 
 On 02/02/14 18:47, Charles Steinmetz wrote:
  Magnus wrote:
 
  If the heat sources where well coupled to the air-flow, which they are
  not, and the flow-path as low air-flow resistance, which it also
  doesn't have, requires the fan to work at high rate to get any air
  move, and to get the thermistor happy.
 
  My point was, the thermistor is never happy.  It always wants more
  cooling.  So it spins the fan up to full speed and is still too hot to
  reach equlibrium.
 
 Which only means that the thermistor setup is shifted and needs to be 
 adjusted to achieve the goal.
 
  You can mount a fan to create a steady flow on the right side, and
  that way cool off much of the heat there.
 
  You mean an internal fan, I take it.  That still doesn't solve the
  problem of too little air moving through the box to lower the internal
  temperature to the target value in normal room ambient temperatures.
 
 No, I mean an external fan.
 
 The box have far to little air intake, as you have already pointed out, 
 and I agree fully.
 
  Well, we *do* care about a stable internal temperature, since it will
  also shift calibration factors, so the stabler the internal
  temperature is and hence various shifts which is being compensate, the
  more accurate it becomes.
 
  Right.  But unless the thermal design has been optimized (and it has
  not, on the SR620), you have to choose which part of the interior you
  want to be regulated to a constant temperature.  The very worst possible
  choice is to put the thermistor in the exhaust stream of the fan (where
  SRS put it).  It needs to be somewhere inside the box, and where you put
  it determines what part of the interior is regulated.  Of course, all of
  this assumes that you use a fan that moves enough air to actually reach
  equilibrium before it gets to full speed.  The stock fan doesn't, so NO
  place inside the box is regulated to a constant temperature, except in
  very cold ambient temperatures.
 
 I agree. There is many things which needs to be fixed to get there, 
 there is no single silver-bullet to solve it all.
 
  Perhaps SRS did not intend to regulate the interior temperature of the
  SR620 -- maybe they just wanted it to warm up faster (if you did away
  with the thermistor and had the fan run full speed whenever the counter
  was on, it would presumably take longer to warm up).
 
  Maybe, would make kind of sense, on the other hand, they could have
  achieve both quick heat-up and stable but lower temperature and
  quieter if they wanted.
 
  Yes, they could have.  So, the question is, do we just replace fans when
  they go bad and live with the poor thermal design, or do we try to
  improve the thermal design?  If we want to improve the thermal design,
  the methods available to us are: (i) use a fan that moves more air, so
  the location of the thermistor is actually regulated to a constant
  temperature in normal ambient temperatures (not just in very cold
  ambient temperatures); (ii) relocate the thermistor to the most
  temperature-critical area inside the instrument; (iii) make additional
  air inlet holes, strategically placed to evenly cool the various zones
  of the interior; and (iv) add air baffles inside the box to evenly cool
  the various zones of the interior.
 
 I think a sub-set of these are needed, but you also need to include (v) 
 change the balance-point for the thermistor stabilization.
 
 I think the single biggest problem is too little air inlet, which forces 
 the fan to run in stupidly high speed without actually do much, as the 
 air input has too low cross-section and with several small holes you 
 need to create a large pressure difference in order to achieve the air 
 flow wanted. Also, those holes help to create noise as they are not 
 shaped to avoid turbulence. Best way is just achieve large enough 
 cross-section.
 
  It would indeed be interesting. The Papst 624 seems quite capable
  little critter and there seem to be some magic to the 624 number
  matching, which doesn't seem to be accidental.
 
  No magic.  624 just means that it is a 60x60mm fan that runs on 24v.
  Most fan manufacturers make a dozen or more fans with all different
  current draws, air movement, noise, number of fan 

Re: [time-nuts] Replacement fan in SR620

[Tom Knox]

With an internal fan I think the covers actually can make a great heat 
exchanger as well. Often an instrument that is overheating will have portions 
of the case still cool.  Perhaps the worst example of fan cooling is the 
Symetricom 512XA Phase Noise Test set. It is kind of out of place on such an 
otherwise exceptional produce. No offense meant to the Symmetricom engineers. 
It is one of the few product I have purchased new.

Thomas Knox



 Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2014 20:42:54 +0100
 From: mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org
 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Replacement fan in SR620
 
 On 02/02/14 20:28, Tom Knox wrote:
 
  A little off topic but It seems many instruments (the SR620 and 53132A 
  included) would work best with an internal fan. (A closed system, not 
  exchanging outside air). Possibly with some sort of internal/external heat 
  sink if needed. Or in high power situations outside air would flow through  
  a hollow heatsink (again not exchanging outside and internal air). If 
  nothing else this would keep dust out. Since fan filters can really 
  restrict air-flow and without a filter dust on circuit boards can act as on 
  thermal insulator leading to overheating while conducting static.
 
 Good point. A fan in a closed environment will survive longer, or 
 rather, won't degrade as fast as it possibly would do.
 
 These days I would assume that heat-pipes would be used to move heat to 
 a large external heat-sink. It's fairly cheap these days.
 
 Cheers,
 Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] Replacement fan in SR620

[Tom Knox]

Magnus I have a big collector of fans, mostly for Agilent equipment not that it 
matters, let me know the dimensions I will see what I have that is quiet. 
Cheers; 
Thomas Knox



 Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2014 18:56:48 +0100
 From: mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org
 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: [time-nuts] Replacement fan in SR620
 
 Fellow time-nuts,
 
 I heard the fan in one of my SR620s and it didn't really was a nice 
 sound. Has someone found a good replacement fan? Quieter would be nice.
 
 Considering performance checks and calibration this evening.
 
 Cheers,
 Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] New Acquisition: HP-53132A

[Tom Knox]

I know that with the ovenized oscillator the power supply (and therefore fan) 
are always on.

Thomas Knox



 Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2014 22:50:13 -0500
 From: stanw...@verizon.net
 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: [time-nuts] New Acquisition: HP-53132A
 
 Hello The Net,
 
 I just got in the counter and the fan is always ON, even with the front 
 panel switch OFF.
 
 I looked in the manual but could not find anyway to change this.
 The counter has the standard internal 10 MHz reference, but I will be 
 using a Trimble T'bolt GPS/DO for the external reference.
 
 The fan is part of the power supply module. I can see a possible need 
 for it if a premium ovenized reference is always ON.
 But I do not have the premium internal reference.
 
 Is there a way to only allow the fan to be ON, if the front panel switch 
 is ON ?  Possibly a jumper setting ?
 
 Are there any key strokes to determine the software version, other than 
 a check sum ?
 I do not have the standard HP serial number, with the vintage 
 (manufacturing date code) code first.
 The unit was manufactured in Korea.
 
 Stan, W1LE on Cape Cod
 
 
 
 
 z
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Re: [time-nuts] Tom's Adventures of a Time Nut (Banquet Talk)

[Tom Knox]

Tom thanks for your continuing contributions to the science and history of time 
and frequency. Your passion and knowledge set a high bar for both amateurs and 
professionals that can help motivate each of us toward our own goals. The 
ability to both educate and motivate is indeed a rare gift. 
Best Wishes;  

Thomas Knox



 Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2014 08:50:45 -0500
 From: bobda...@triad.rr.com
 To: t...@leapsecond.com; time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Tom's Adventures of a Time Nut (Banquet Talk)
 
 Tom,
 
 Very enjoyable talk.  One small non time related quibble.  Ray and 
 Charles Eames were not brothers; Ray was Charles Eames (Eames Chair etc) 
 wife and a co-collaborator on many projects. PBS has a documentary of 
 their work and life together.
 
 http://www.pbs.org/wnet/americanmasters/episodes/charles-ray-eames-the-architect-and-the-painter/watch-the-full-documentary-film/1950/
 
 Thanks again; great video!
 
 Bob Darby
 
 On 1/30/2014 7:04 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote:
  I remember they recorded it. I just found out today it's on YouTube! Cool. 
  I guess. It's always weird to hear or see oneself speak, but if you watch 
  it I think it describes the time nut hobby pretty well.
 
  If you want to follow the PowerPoint presentation instead of the long talk, 
  a copy if it is here:
 
  http://leapsecond.com/dcc2013/
 
  /tvb
 
  - Original Message -
  From: Bob Stewart b...@evoria.net
  To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
  time-nuts@febo.com
  Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2014 11:11 AM
  Subject: [time-nuts] Tom's Adventures of a Time Nut (Banquet Talk)
 
 
  Today's SouthGateARC.org page has a link to Tom's talk at the 2013 
  TAPR/ARRL Digital Communications Conference. I don't know whether this has 
  been linked to time nuts in the past, but it's an enjoyable presentation.
 
  southgatearc.org/news/2014/january/adventures_of_a%20_time_nut.htm#.UuqiQ5Uiwag
 
  Bob - AE6RV
 
 
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Re: [time-nuts] EFC divider resistors

[Tom Knox]

I am not sure if anyone else mentioned this, Placing the parts against the 
oscillator with a little thermal epoxy under a small piece of foam so they are 
at least partially ovenized should really help. 

Thomas Knox



 From: li...@rtty.us
 Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2014 22:36:46 -0500
 To: lajeune...@mail.com; time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] EFC divider resistors
 
 Hi
 
 If you attenuate the DAC 100:1 to 1000:1 before it hits the OCXO, the DAC 
 does not matter much. That may sound like a crazy ratio, but it is indeed 
 possible with some of these OCXO EFC ranges. They can have a *lot* of swing. 
 
 The reference is an LTZ1000, they run about $50 in single piece lots. You can 
 get resistors that run below 1 ppm tracking without a whole lot of effort 
 
 Bob
 
 On Jan 31, 2014, at 8:38 PM, Robert LaJeunesse rlajeune...@sbcglobal.net 
 wrote:
 
  Must be military prices. If using 5 PPM resistors in the build a reference 
  much better than that isn't needed, especially if the temperature is 
  somewhat controlled, like time nuts do. A commercial 3 PPM/C part, the 
  LM4140A, is $4.54 each in singles. At 2.2uV p-p it's reasonably quiet as 
  well.
  
  Considering stability influences, what provides the DAC reference? That's 
  rather important as well. 
  
  Bob LaJeunesse
  
  I'd also note the 2 PPM ratio tracking dividers, the MAX549x series, can be 
  had in the $3.49 range, also not all that expensive.
  
  
  
  
  From: Bob Camp li...@rtty.us
  To: Bob Stewart b...@evoria.net; Discussion of precise time and 
  frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com 
  Sent: Friday, January 31, 2014 7:17 PM
  Subject: Re: [time-nuts] EFC divider resistors
  
  
  
  ... A good voltage reference will set you back about $50 or so. 
  
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[time-nuts] 1050A Oscillator configuration

[Tom Knox]

Does anyone have experience with Datum 1050A output configurations. I have seen 
them loaded with everything from 1ea - 1PPS, 100KHz , 1MHz, 5MHz, and 10MHz to 
4-10MHz and 1-5MHz to units with just a single 5MHz and 10MHz. I would like to 
switch one unit to 2-10MHz and 3-5Mhz or even 1-10MHz and 4-5MHz outputs. I 
know I can add and additional distribution amp but would rather know how the 
engineers originally obtained those outputs.
Thanks

Thomas Knox


  
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[time-nuts] Tourbillon movement watches

[Tom Knox]

I hope this will fall within the Time-Nuts interested. I recently spend some 
time with a neighbor who does ornamental machining and cutting of gems. We got 
into a discussion of time as an art form. He was telling me about a gentleman 
in South Centeral Colorado that makes his living making a few Tourbillon 
watches a year.  I personally still think TVB's watch on the Leapsecond site is 
the most attractive I have seen. But before electronics, watches suffered from 
the effects of gravity. I guess they still do. These effects are reduced by 
placing the movement in what is basically a rotating cage(Tourbillon Movement). 
 If you are not familiar with these do a search. They are very cool. My friend 
is no slouch building clocks himself, he has been asked to make a Cartier 
Mystery Clock. They are also worth a search. Apparently every few years Cartier 
commissions a jeweler to build his vision of the Mystery Clock to promote 
Cartier at international gem shows.

Thomas Knox


  
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[time-nuts] New Symmetricom 1000C oscillator

[Tom Knox]

I noticed today that Symmetricom has upgraded it's venerable 1000B. The 5MHz 
C model has a premium version with a rated -130dB @ 1Hz offset. I think that 
is the best rated spec I have seen. Noise floor is a lackluster 160dB @ 100KHz. 
Sounds like a BVA. The data sheet is at:
http://www.symmetricom.com/resources/download-library/documents/datasheets/1000c/

Thomas Knox


  
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[time-nuts] Phase Noise at 5-10Mhz

[Tom Knox]

I was wondering what kind of Phase Noise performance benchmarks Time Nuts have 
achieved in their labs. I have been rebuilding my Time and Freq test system for 
the last few years and at times it has been humbling to say the least. I am 
finally seeing light at the end of the tunnel and seem to have gotten the 
systemic noise down to where I can really start comparing the individual 
oscillators I have come across over the years. My approach was to place 
everything in several Agilent equipment racks and I have even questioned the 
wisdom of that more then once as I have struggled to set up a state of the art 
system. My system can be Phase locked, and the various quartz oscillators can 
be configured in series and parallel so each element of the system can be 
compare. I know the simplest approach is a Phase Noise test set a Ref and DUT 
oscillators some batteries loose on a bench with some filters and  devices to 
break ground loops. So what real word combined uncertainty number have you been 
 able to achieve at 5-10MHz at an offset of 1Hz 10Hz and noise floor. I 
struggled at several points originally with systemic noise due to ground loops 
from all the LAN, USB, and coaxial cables interconnecting the system elements 
and soaking between reference signals due to sheilding issues from normal 
RG/58 cables and the verious Cesium, GPS, and Quartz standards. Slowly the 
system has improved from a shaky start for 5MHz at around -105db @ 1Hz toward 
my compromised goal of 5Mhz at -120dB @ 1Hz. I am hoping find ideas on how to 
surpass -120db @ 1Hz.  I have heard some impressive number from some of the 
distiguished members and it would be interesting to how those numbers were 
achieved, and what was used as a reference and measurement system. Thanks and 
Happy New Years.

Thomas Knox


  
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Re: [time-nuts] sysclock source for AD9912 DDS?

[Tom Knox]

Actually the Rohde SMA100A with opt B22 is pretty darn good, and Rick is being 
a bit humble, the Agilent E8663D is also very good.
I hope all member have a happy and prosperous new year.
Thomas Knox



 Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 20:01:38 -0800
 From: rich...@karlquist.com
 To: g...@hoffmann-hochfrequenz.de; time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] sysclock source for AD9912 DDS?
 
 On 12/30/2013 9:37 AM, Gerhard Hoffmann wrote:
 
  Driving the DDS system clock from an expensive RF generator (e.g. HP
  8648A)
  would be possible but I'd prefer a PLL from 10MHz if it's doable
  simply/cheaply.
 
 
 Although expensive from a hobbyist viewpoint, the HP8648A is
 far from HP/Agilent's best, and even the best (8662A) is still
 not adequate to use as a clock in most cases.  No general
 purpose sig gen is.  (disclaimer:  I work for Agilent).
 
 Rick Karlquist N6RK
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Re: [time-nuts] Austron

[Tom Knox]

Austron was purchased by Datum which was then purchased by Symmetricom, which 
was recently sold to Microsemi.

Thomas Knox



 From: j...@westmorelandengineering.com
 Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 17:42:21 -0800
 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: [time-nuts] Austron
 
 Hello Time-Nuts!
 
 I hope everyone is enjoying their Holiday Season!
 
 I have a question - I have been doing a little research lately on the
 company that used to be in Austin, TX - Austron - they seemed to have filed
 quite a few patents in areas of interest to our group.
 
 Here's one just as an example:
 https://www.google.com/patents/US5220333?pg=PA1dq=assignee:++austronhl=ensa=Xei=tdq8UoL_EqbQ2wXy14DwCAved=0CDcQ6AEwAA
 
 Are there any former Austron people on this list?  If so, I would like to
 have a brief phone conversation with you if that is OK.  Just general
 questions - nothing personal of course.
 
 E-Mail could work but could be quicker just to have a brief phone call.  I
 have Skype also if that
 is easier.
 
 Thanks and Happy Holidays!
 John Westmoreland
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Re: [time-nuts] Shortt Clock Recent Measurements

[Tom Knox]

There should be some error if you are to buy into Dr Allan's new gravitational 
theory. Has anyone attempted to duplicate his experiments concerning high 
energy density effects on a Shortt Clock? I posted a link to Dr Allan's web 
site last night on this thread.

Thomas Knox



 From: t...@leapsecond.com
 Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 18:39:26 -0800
 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Shortt Clock Recent Measurements
 
 Brooke,
 
 Not sure what you find in error; please explain.
 
 I have all the Shortt info you need. Not all of it is for Wikipedia; contact 
 me off-line.
 
 Just got back from the CalTech
 Time Symposium:
 http://leapsecond.com/nawcc2013/
 
 The conjecture about tides is explained in great detail here:
 http://leapsecond.com/hsn2006/
 
 Meanwhile, see:
 http://leapsecond.com/pend/shortt/
 http://leapsecond.com/pend/shortt/1931-RAS-Analysis-Loomis-Chronograph-Brown-Brouwer.pdf
 http://leapsecond.com/pend/shortt/1931-RAS-Precise-Measurement-Time-Loomis.pdf
 
 /tvb (i5s)
 
  On Dec 9, 2013, at 5:02 PM, Brooke Clarke bro...@pacific.net wrote:
  
  Hi:
  
  The Wiki page for the Shortt pendulum clock has a Recent Measurements 
  (1984)  paragraph that's in error.
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shortt-Synchronome_clock#Recent_accuracy_measurement
  
  While it's probably true that the clock is stable to 200 uS per day (i.e. 
  2E-9) I believe Alfred Loomis discovered the effect of the moon on this 
  clock a long time ago.
  Is there a link to his paper at the Royal Society on that topic that could 
  be added to the Wiki page?
  
  Also see:
  http://www.amazon.com/Tuxedo-Park-Street-Science-Changed/dp/0684872889/ref=sr_1_1
  http://www.leapsecond.com/hsn2006/ch1.htm
  
  -- 
  Have Fun,
  
  Brooke Clarke
  http://www.PRC68.com
  http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
  
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Re: [time-nuts] Shortt Clock Recent Measurements

[Tom Knox]

I thought I needed to throw this in the mix. 
http://www.allanstime.com/Research/Pendulum/index.html 
Enjoy.

Thomas Knox



 Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 17:02:22 -0800
 From: bro...@pacific.net
 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: [time-nuts] Shortt Clock Recent Measurements
 
 Hi:
 
 The Wiki page for the Shortt pendulum clock has a Recent Measurements 
 (1984)  paragraph that's in error.
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shortt-Synchronome_clock#Recent_accuracy_measurement
 
 While it's probably true that the clock is stable to 200 uS per day (i.e. 
 2E-9) I believe Alfred Loomis discovered the 
 effect of the moon on this clock a long time ago.
 Is there a link to his paper at the Royal Society on that topic that could be 
 added to the Wiki page?
 
 Also see:
 http://www.amazon.com/Tuxedo-Park-Street-Science-Changed/dp/0684872889/ref=sr_1_1
 http://www.leapsecond.com/hsn2006/ch1.htm
 
 -- 
 Have Fun,
 
 Brooke Clarke
 http://www.PRC68.com
 http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
 
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Re: [time-nuts] GPS timing antenna 5 meter BNC Plug with cable

[Tom Knox]

Amazing how reasonable some of these Chinese cables and other electronics are. 
The quality is also constantly improving. But I would see if they can use at 
least RG/142. It is more expensive but I would not recommend RG/58 for a GPS 
antenna. Or even for distributing 5 and 10 MHz outputs if you are going for 
maximum performance.
At 40GHz bandwidth the 2.4mm connectors require precision machining. In 
addition the cable will need to act as a waveguide beyond about 30Ghz. Needless 
to say they will always command some serious money.  If you are going to that 
expense I would recommend 2.4mm to 2.4mm with a 2.4mm to 3.5mm adpater. An SMA 
connector will limit the cable to use below 20GHz. Skip at RDR has had some new 
surplus 2.4mm cables recently. He may still have some longer lengths. They are 
not $6, but they were reasonably priced and very nice.
Thomas Knox


 Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 16:31:13 +
 From: drkir...@gmail.com
 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS timing antenna 5 meter BNC Plug with cable
 
 On 5 December 2013 05:56, David J Taylor david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk 
 wrote:
  Anyone know whether these antennas are any good?  Anyone used one?  I wonder
  where they are made?
 
 
  http://www.rfsupplier.com/timing-antenna-meter-plug-with-rg58-coax-cable-p-2344.html
 
  Looks like it has no filter, and some of the spelling is dubious!
 
  Thanks,
  David
 
 Reading the site
 
 Rfsupplier is a online b2c company located in Shenzhen, China which
 specialized...
 
 I agree the English is odd, but it is better than my Chinese.
 
 Its an interesting site that will make cables of arbitrary length with
 arbitrary connectors, though I think they might struggle to make this
 cable they quote $6 for.
 
 Product: Cable Type: RG8; Length: 0.1cm/0.04inch(s); Connector A: N
 Straight Jack; Connector B: N Right Angle Plug
 
 I wish I could find a similar site that would make me a cable with a
 2.4 mm male plug at one end, and a female chassis mount SMA on the
 other. I suspect a company like Huber and Suhner could make me one,
 but I suspect it would be a small fortune for a one-off.
 
 Dave
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Re: [time-nuts] Man killed in quartz crystal accident

[Tom Knox]

This quartz crystal accident is a canary in the coal mine that demonstrates how 
poor safety and regulations often work in the real world.  What I feel is a 
bigger concern is the similar risks we have with our aging Nuclear reactors. 
Many are over twenty-five years past their intended life.
The problem is today they are paid for, and the government insures them, so 
they are very profitable. The question is do any of the safety officials and 
inspectors really have the authority to close them when they become inherently 
unsafe? I don't think so. I think they will run until one catastrophically 
fails. I think government oversight is far to often an illusion.

Thomas Knox



 Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 00:51:49 -0500
 From: n...@verizon.net
 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Man killed in quartz crystal accident
 
 I oncecancelled my purchase of a home when I found a sign nearby indicating 
 an 
 underground high pressure gas transmission line. These days they're probably 
 removing the signs.
 
 Let's hope the government doesn't decide that precise timekeeping is of 
 strategic value and not permitted amongst ordinary people.
 
 
 On 11/25/2013 11:49 PM, Joe Leikhim wrote:
  If you really want to lose sleep, think about those old rusty 24 inch gas 
  mains running under your neighborhood like in San Bruno California. The 
  warning signs were present there as well.
 
  Now thanks to Homeland Security you can't find accurate gas transmission 
  maps 
  on-line unless you are cleared. So if you are buying a house in a 
  particular 
  neighborhood, do some walking around looking for signs of buried facilities.
 
 
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Re: [time-nuts] Advice on getting a used Agilent E4432B RF-Generator

[Tom Knox]

Amazing price, is there a gun involved?

Thomas Knox



 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 From: xne...@luna.dyndns.dk
 Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2013 16:15:51 +
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Advice on getting a used Agilent E4432B RF-Generator
 
 On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 15:44:16 +, cfo wrote:
 
 
  I can get it for approx 1500 US$ delivered on my doorstep (EU) , this is
  not a bad price. Considering a US buy would be + shipping  25% VAT on
  unit+ship.
  
 Correction : Price is 1350 US$ delivered
 
 CFO
 
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Re: [time-nuts] Advice on getting a used Agilent E4432B RF-Generator

[Tom Knox]

Agilent has a mechanical attenuator option, so perhaps that is the reason. 

Thomas Knox



 Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2013 17:13:56 +
 From: drkir...@gmail.com
 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Advice on getting a used Agilent E4432B RF-Generator
 
 On 19 November 2013 16:53, cfo xne...@luna.dyndns.dk wrote:
  On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 09:35:00 -0700, Tom Knox wrote:
 
  Amazing price, is there a gun involved?
 
  Thomas Knox
 
  No gun , but some previous buys from same seller.
  And no options installed in the unit.
 
  I have just been told that the attenuator is made up of some PIN-Diodes ,
  and is virtually immune to wear.
 
  So i have decided to get the unit.
 
  CFO
 
 If it is made up from PIN diodes, I wonder what the logic of Agilent
 letting you read the number of times they have switched?
 
 The sig gen I have, which I mentioned on the HP forum earlier, but was
 not sure of the number, is an HP 8665A. I paid about £700 (GBP) for
 that about a year ago, and being a late firmware version, goes to 4.5
 GHz, although its performance is only specified to 4.2 GHz. BUT I do
 have an attenuator issue on that!!! They are clearly mechanical and
 some changes of output level do not occur correctly.
 
 
 
 Dave
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Re: [time-nuts] Femtosecond Systems Phase Nosie Stuff

[Tom Knox]

I have the FSS1000E manual, and I recently purchased a new scanner. I may not 
have the time to scan the entire manual but could easily find time to send any 
info on the noise source interface and send it to you.
That said Tom's option may be better, and the founder of FSS may have all the 
manuals on PDF.
Let me know which direction you want to go. Please feel free to contact me 
directly.
Best Wishes;

Thomas Knox

act...@hotmail.com
1-303-544-0307

 From: t...@leapsecond.com
 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2013 12:46:22 -0800
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Femtosecond Systems Phase Nosie Stuff
 
  Hi,
  
  I'm searching for any information (manuals, catalogs, product 
  information) about the Femtosecond Systems phase noise measurement stuff.
  Their systems are mentioned in some papers, but I couldn't find any 
  other information.
 
 Adrian,
 
 It closed many years ago. The founder is still around. I'll put you in touch 
 with him.
 
 /tvb
 
 
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Re: [time-nuts] Off Topic Sortof: Board Rework Stations

[Tom Knox]

It is amazing how affordable these rework stations have become. Ten years ago a 
station like these would cost you thousands of dollars.

Thomas Knox



 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 23:57:49 -0500
 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 From: glennmaill...@bellsouth.net
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Off Topic Sortof: Board Rework Stations
 
 This is the station that I bought.
 It is not as sophisticated, but,not as much either.
 
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/11632887?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
 
 73
 Glenn
 WB4UIV
 
 
 
 At 09:45 PM 11/14/2013, you wrote:
 Bob,
 
 Yes - you definitely need the appropriate lens - here is a seller that has
 everything listed:
 
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/INFRARED-T862-SMT-SMD-REWORK-STATION-SOLDERING-WELDER-IRDA-BGA-MACHINE-/200949973718?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item2ec98d42d6
 
 I opted to get this though:
 
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/BRAND-NEW-T962A-INFRARED-IC-HEATER-REFLOW-OVEN-300X320MM-BGA-SMD-300x320mm-/200942081431?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item2ec914d597
 
 
 I may still pick up one of the T-862++'s though.
 
 Regards,
 John
 
 
 On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 4:33 PM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote:
 
   Hi
  
   If you look at the eBay listings they mention in some of them that what
   they are selling is without lenses. My impression was that you needed to
   focus the IR (like with a lens) to really get it to work well. I did not
   dig far enough to sort that part out.
  
   Bob
  
   On Nov 14, 2013, at 6:41 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. 
   j...@westmorelandengineering.com wrote:
  
Graham,
   
Thanks - good info.  On eBay you can get these for ~$250.00 - depending
   on
whether it is the T-862 or T-862++.
   
So I guess that is a pretty good buy.
   
Best Regards,
John
AJ6BC
   
   
On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 12:28 PM, Graham / KE9H time...@austin.rr.com
   wrote:
   
John:
   
We have one at work.  It basically works as represented.
   
It takes some skill to run, and takes some time to develop the
safe settings for soldering different sized items.  It puts out a
tremendous
amount of infrared heat, and you can melt things if you are not 
careful.
For instance, it will melt plastic connectors close to the part being
reworked.
   
You want to use it in a well ventilated area.  It heats the board to be
reworked
from the underside to close to solder temperature, then uses infrared
from the top side to push the temperature for the part in question
above solder melting temp., and sometimes things close by.
   
The underside heater is covered with silicon rubber, and gives off
   strong
odor when hot.  Hot PCB boards give off strong odors, and of course, 
you
are melting solder and flux.  So, good ventilation is highly
   recommended.
   
You will need to practice on a few scrap boards before you try to 
solder
something valuable.  In the hands of a skilled operator, it does
   beautiful
work.
   
--- Graham
   
==
   
   
On 11/13/2013 9:00 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. wrote:
   
Hello All,
   
I was wondering if anyone on this list has used the T862++ rework
   stations
on the PCB's you work on -
   
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%
3Dtoolsfield-keywords=t862%2B%2Brh=n%3A228013%2Ck%3At862%2B%2B
   
Are these as good as advertised?
   
Thanks In Advance,
John Westmoreland
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Re: [time-nuts] Bathys Atomic time wristwatch with Symmetricon SA.45s CASC

[Tom Knox]

I am holding out for the Leapsecond version to be available to the public 
with low Phase Noise 10MHz, 5MHz, And 1PPS outputs, and the built in adapter 
with low jitter 44.1KHz and 192KHz outputs for my home entertainment system.

Thomas Knox



 Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2013 17:25:49 +
 From: aifeste...@gmail.com
 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: [time-nuts] Bathys Atomic time wristwatch with Symmetricon SA.45s
 CASC
 
 hello,
 
 Couldn't find a reference in the mailling list so i put here the link to
 news:
 
 http://upstart.bizjournals.com/companies/rebel-brands/2013/11/01/john-patterson-bathys-atomic-watch.html?page=all
 
 Good for collector's of wristwatches i imagine... ;)
 
 Cheers,
 
 Andre Esteves
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Re: [time-nuts] The 5MHz Sweet Spot

[Tom Knox]

My questions exactly. For the moment I think question 4 may be covered in 
Archita Hati's paper State-of-the-Art RF Signal Generation From Optical 
Frequency Division. 
The other questions are what drives many Time-Nuts I know. 
Thomas Knox



 Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2013 03:40:40 +0100
 From: mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org
 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The 5MHz Sweet Spot
 
 On 11/03/2013 02:45 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
  Hi
 
  I believe that you are talking to two very different groups, one who 
  actually design the crystals and the other who use the products that are 
  designed. One is talking about what they can buy, the other is talking 
  about what could / could not be done and why.
 This is an important point. There is in fact a few different twists to this:
 
 1) What is the best you could buy off the shelf
 2) What is the best you can buy off the shelf
 3) What is the best that could be built with the available tools
 4) What is the best that could be built with sky-is-the-limit budget
 5) What is the best that could be built, as physical size becomes smaller
 
 The last one is kind of relevant. Today packages shrink fast, and it's
 very handy and all... but what about the performance we get. We can hug
 our 5th overtone ovens all we want, but motivating their power and size
 doesn't always cut it. It's like comparing with 5 inch blanks in Bob's
 earlier post, it's more like 0,55 inch...
 
 Cheers,
 Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] The 5MHz Sweet Spot

[Tom Knox]

I am not the right person to explain, So anyone with more knowledge please feel 
free to jump in. I think basically the reasoning is as a single clock the 
system at some point it would need mantainance or repair. So time is maintained 
with an algorithm that monitors all the clocks and oscillators that make up the 
system in which each part contributes and if any part deviates or fails it can 
be removed. This system is then characterized periodically by F1 as required to 
keep the system at F! accuracy. 

Thomas Knox



 Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2013 13:33:29 +0100
 From: att...@kinali.ch
 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The 5MHz Sweet Spot
 
 Hi Tom,
 
 On Sat, 2 Nov 2013 16:06:06 -0600
 Tom Knox act...@hotmail.com wrote:
 
  Our house standard F1 a cesium fountain is used roughly one month every
  few months to characterize roughly 12 5071A cesium standards steering
  about 5 MHM 2010 cleaned up with a number of 8607 option 08 oscillator. 
 
 What is the reason that the F1 isn't running continously?
 I can understand the use of 12 Cs-beams for averaging, but i would
 have thought that you would run your most accurate clock in parallel
 as well.
 
 Is there a publication that explains your setup and why you've done
 it this way and not another?
 
   Attila Kinali
 
 
 -- 
 1.) Write everything down.
 2.) Reduce to the essential.
 3.) Stop and question.
   -- The Habits of Highly Boring People, Chris Sauve
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Re: [time-nuts] The 5MHz Sweet Spot

[Tom Knox]

. One is talking about what they can buy, the other  is talking 
  about what 
  could / could not be done and why.
  
  Bob
  
  On  Nov 2, 2013, at 8:22 PM, Tom Knox act...@hotmail.com  wrote:
  
  From reading your past posts I must respect your opinion.  Your are 
  obviously extremely educated on the subject. So why is there some  
  disagreement 
  in two very knowledgeable groups? 
  
  Thomas  Knox
  
  
  
  From: li...@rtty.us
  Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2013 18:44:18 -0400
  To:  time-nuts@febo.com
  Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The 5MHz Sweet  Spot
  
  Hi
  
  The only thing that  the 5 MHz 3rd crystal is “optimum” for is a holder 
  that will accept a 0.55”  max diameter blank.
  
  Bpb
  
  On  Nov 2, 2013, at 6:06 PM, Tom Knox act...@hotmail.com  wrote:
  
  Mike I think we must be talking to the  same smart people. I think 5MHz 
  was adopted over 3MHz simply because 5MHz  multiplies to other commonly 
  used frequencies with greater ease. I think the  top frequency standards 
  have 
  evolved to 5MHz Third Overtone SC cut crystals  for a reason. The 
  evolution 
  has gone on from the days of Tesla and improved  greatly during the glory 
  days of Quartz in the years leading up to atomic  standards with countless 
  hours of experimentation and research. Those lessons  learned are 
  constantly 
  examined through the lens of the latest  science.   I may be wrong, but I 
  have 
  not heard of any extreme  design prototype quartz oscillator with superior 
  Phase Noise and Stability.  Our house standard F1 a cesium fountain is 
  used 
  roughly one month every few  months to characterize roughly 12 5071A 
  cesium 
  standards steering about 5 MHM  2010 cleaned up with a number of 8607 
  option 
  08 oscillator. (The equipment  choices are not a recommendation or 
  endorsement, and there are  po
  ssibly m
  any product that could meet or  exceed the performance of these fine 
  products.) But the oscillators selected  are 5MHz third Overtone SC cut. 
  
  Thomas  Knox
  
  
  
  From: mfe...@eozinc.com
  To: n1...@alum.dartmouth.org;  time-nuts@febo.com
  Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2013 09:50:50  -0400
  Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The 5MHz Sweet  Spot
  
  Exactly - I mentioned this on  here about 3 years ago and all of the
  self-proclaimed  geniuses poo-pooded it.  I was told early in my  
  engineering
  career in the early 70's,  by a very  smart man, when I thought I had 
  all of
  the answers, that  considering all of the trade-offs regarding 
  performance,
  around 3 MHz for a crystal is best, operating in the 3rd overtone  
  mode,
  hence the slow progression from the 1 and 5 MHz  standards to 10 MHz. 
  Now,
  getting close to 70, I just see  what I can learn from all the smart 
  people
  on here, and  keep quiet most of the time. Regards - Mike
  
  Mike B. Feher, EOZ Inc.
  89 Arnold  Blvd.
  Howell, NJ, 07731
  732-886-5960  office
  908-902-3831 cell
  
  -Original Message-
  From:  time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com]  
  On
  Behalf Of David McGaw
  Sent:  Saturday, November 02, 2013 1:30 AM
  To: Discussion of  precise time and frequency measurement
  Subject: Re:  [time-nuts] The 5MHz Sweet Spot
  
  This  all seems to be forgetting that the crystals are usually 
  operated  at
  3rd or 5th harmonic.  The crystal in a 10811A is  10 MHz/3rd overtone. 
  A
  high quality 5 MHz/5th  overtone crystal is really a 1 MHz 
  fundamental, a
  large  piece of quartz.  Running at a harmonic greatly reduces the  
  influence
  of the package.
  
  David
  
  
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Re: [time-nuts] The 5MHz Sweet Spot

[Tom Knox]

They have crystals so it would seem so. I wonder are the jumps are model, 
brand, or design dependent and to what degree? Also thanks to everyone 
contributing their knowledge and experience to the thread. I for one am 
learning a great deal. I am still interested if anyone has insights to Magnus's 
questions on what is the current state of the art, if anyone has attempted 
these overkill design ideas,  and best performance achieved to date.

Thomas Knox



 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 From: hmur...@megapathdsl.net
 Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2013 13:28:16 -0800
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The 5MHz Sweet Spot
 
 
 Do low cost recycled Rubidiums have any quirks equivalent to frequency jumps 
 in crystals?
 
 
 
 -- 
 These are my opinions.  I hate spam.
 
 
 
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Re: [time-nuts] The 5MHz Sweet Spot

[Tom Knox]

Magnus you are spot on, Quartz is one of those areas that is still as much art 
as science.

Thomas Knox



 Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2013 23:13:20 +0100
 From: mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org
 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The 5MHz Sweet Spot
 
 Hi,
 
 Let me point out one little thing. While you can pick up stuff from the
 many comments here, remember that this is a field of a whole myriad of
 effects and challenges. Different insight at different periods have
 provided for different truths and design approaches. Some of the
 issues can be handled at manufacturing, some in the design etc. Just
 don't expect it to be a few simple rules.
 
 Cheers,
 Magnus
 
 On 11/03/2013 10:52 PM, Tom Knox wrote:
  They have crystals so it would seem so. I wonder are the jumps are model, 
  brand, or design dependent and to what degree? Also thanks to everyone 
  contributing their knowledge and experience to the thread. I for one am 
  learning a great deal. I am still interested if anyone has insights to 
  Magnus's questions on what is the current state of the art, if anyone has 
  attempted these overkill design ideas,  and best performance achieved to 
  date.
 
  Thomas Knox
 
 
 
  To: time-nuts@febo.com
  From: hmur...@megapathdsl.net
  Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2013 13:28:16 -0800
  Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The 5MHz Sweet Spot
 
 
  Do low cost recycled Rubidiums have any quirks equivalent to frequency 
  jumps 
  in crystals?
 
 
 
  -- 
  These are my opinions.  I hate spam.
 
 
 
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Re: [time-nuts] The 5MHz Sweet Spot

[Tom Knox]

Mike I think we must be talking to the same smart people. I think 5MHz was 
adopted over 3MHz simply because 5MHz multiplies to other commonly used 
frequencies with greater ease. I think the top frequency standards have evolved 
to 5MHz Third Overtone SC cut crystals for a reason. The evolution has gone on 
from the days of Tesla and improved greatly during the glory days of Quartz in 
the years leading up to atomic standards with countless hours of 
experimentation and research. Those lessons learned are constantly examined 
through the lens of the latest science.   I may be wrong, but I have not heard 
of any extreme design prototype quartz oscillator with superior Phase Noise and 
Stability. Our house standard F1 a cesium fountain is used roughly one month 
every few months to characterize roughly 12 5071A cesium standards steering 
about 5 MHM 2010 cleaned up with a number of 8607 option 08 oscillator. (The 
equipment choices are not a recommendation or endorsement, and there are 
possibly m
 any product that could meet or exceed the performance of these fine products.) 
But the oscillators selected are 5MHz third Overtone SC cut. 

Thomas Knox



 From: mfe...@eozinc.com
 To: n1...@alum.dartmouth.org; time-nuts@febo.com
 Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2013 09:50:50 -0400
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The 5MHz Sweet Spot
 
 Exactly - I mentioned this on here about 3 years ago and all of the
 self-proclaimed geniuses poo-pooded it.  I was told early in my engineering
 career in the early 70's,  by a very smart man, when I thought I had all of
 the answers, that considering all of the trade-offs regarding performance,
 around 3 MHz for a crystal is best, operating in the 3rd overtone mode,
 hence the slow progression from the 1 and 5 MHz standards to 10 MHz. Now,
 getting close to 70, I just see what I can learn from all the smart people
 on here, and keep quiet most of the time. Regards - Mike
 
 Mike B. Feher, EOZ Inc.
 89 Arnold Blvd.
 Howell, NJ, 07731
 732-886-5960 office
 908-902-3831 cell
 
 -Original Message-
 From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
 Behalf Of David McGaw
 Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2013 1:30 AM
 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The 5MHz Sweet Spot
 
 This all seems to be forgetting that the crystals are usually operated at
 3rd or 5th harmonic.  The crystal in a 10811A is 10 MHz/3rd overtone.  A
 high quality 5 MHz/5th overtone crystal is really a 1 MHz fundamental, a
 large piece of quartz.  Running at a harmonic greatly reduces the influence
 of the package.
 
 David
 
 
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Re: [time-nuts] The 5MHz Sweet Spot

[Tom Knox]

From reading your past posts I must respect your opinion. Your are obviously 
extremely educated on the subject. So why is there some disagreement in two 
very knowledgeable groups? 

Thomas Knox



 From: li...@rtty.us
 Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2013 18:44:18 -0400
 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The 5MHz Sweet Spot
 
 Hi
 
 The only thing that the 5 MHz 3rd crystal is “optimum” for is a holder that 
 will accept a 0.55” max diameter blank.
 
 Bpb
  
 On Nov 2, 2013, at 6:06 PM, Tom Knox act...@hotmail.com wrote:
 
  Mike I think we must be talking to the same smart people. I think 5MHz was 
  adopted over 3MHz simply because 5MHz multiplies to other commonly used 
  frequencies with greater ease. I think the top frequency standards have 
  evolved to 5MHz Third Overtone SC cut crystals for a reason. The evolution 
  has gone on from the days of Tesla and improved greatly during the glory 
  days of Quartz in the years leading up to atomic standards with countless 
  hours of experimentation and research. Those lessons learned are constantly 
  examined through the lens of the latest science.   I may be wrong, but I 
  have not heard of any extreme design prototype quartz oscillator with 
  superior Phase Noise and Stability. Our house standard F1 a cesium fountain 
  is used roughly one month every few months to characterize roughly 12 5071A 
  cesium standards steering about 5 MHM 2010 cleaned up with a number of 8607 
  option 08 oscillator. (The equipment choices are not a recommendation or 
  endorsement, and there are po
  ssibly m
  any product that could meet or exceed the performance of these fine 
  products.) But the oscillators selected are 5MHz third Overtone SC cut. 
  
  Thomas Knox
  
  
  
  From: mfe...@eozinc.com
  To: n1...@alum.dartmouth.org; time-nuts@febo.com
  Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2013 09:50:50 -0400
  Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The 5MHz Sweet Spot
  
  Exactly - I mentioned this on here about 3 years ago and all of the
  self-proclaimed geniuses poo-pooded it.  I was told early in my engineering
  career in the early 70's,  by a very smart man, when I thought I had all of
  the answers, that considering all of the trade-offs regarding performance,
  around 3 MHz for a crystal is best, operating in the 3rd overtone mode,
  hence the slow progression from the 1 and 5 MHz standards to 10 MHz. Now,
  getting close to 70, I just see what I can learn from all the smart 
  people
  on here, and keep quiet most of the time. Regards - Mike
  
  Mike B. Feher, EOZ Inc.
  89 Arnold Blvd.
  Howell, NJ, 07731
  732-886-5960 office
  908-902-3831 cell
  
  -Original Message-
  From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
  Behalf Of David McGaw
  Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2013 1:30 AM
  To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
  Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The 5MHz Sweet Spot
  
  This all seems to be forgetting that the crystals are usually operated at
  3rd or 5th harmonic.  The crystal in a 10811A is 10 MHz/3rd overtone.  A
  high quality 5 MHz/5th overtone crystal is really a 1 MHz fundamental, a
  large piece of quartz.  Running at a harmonic greatly reduces the influence
  of the package.
  
  David
  
  
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[time-nuts] The 5MHz Sweet Spot

[Tom Knox]

A while ago I mentioned 5MHz oscillators were used in most metrology 
applications compared to the more commonly available 10MHz because 5MHz was a 
sweet spot for quartz. At the time I didn't know why. I finally had a chance to 
ask the person I learned this from why. The main reason is simply physical 
size. The larger crystal lattice allows many manufacturing advantages that 
allow for a higher Q. He also explained I was wrong in an earlier statement, 
metal/quartz migration on quartz oscillator was not a major problem even after 
decades, but could become more of a factor if driven hard. That does not mean 
the deposition and lead bonding has no negative effect. The BVA solves this by 
capacitive coupling the quartz rather then direct metal deposition. 

Thomas Knox


  
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Re: [time-nuts] Anyone Know What The Models Were In This NIST Paper?

[Tom Knox]

I do not have any say in it but I voiced the groups concerns to a few 
affiliates at NIST today. One Senior Researcher told me he has been making an 
effort for some time now to document all the equipment used related to a 
research project, adding the standard disclaimer that it was not an endorsement 
or recommendation. I tried to reach one of the papers author to see if they 
were comfortable releasing more GPS product data but missed him. I will try 
again Monday, but it is really up the authors what they feel comfortable with. 
I will also inquire as to what configuration of GPS they currently use for Time 
and Freq. Whether they use L1, or L1/L2, Carrier Phase or what the current 
thinking is of state of the art.

Thomas Knox



 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 00:33:28 +0100
 From: mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org
 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Anyone Know What The Models Were In This NIST Paper?
 
 On 10/31/2013 12:14 AM, Jim Lux wrote:
  On 10/30/13 3:46 PM, Magnus Danielson wrote:
  Hi,
 
  They have learned the hard way that they can't do that easily. They can,
  if they add the necessary mentioning of vendor X and their product Y
  does in no way means an endorsement. I've seen presentations starting
  with a non-endorsement statement so that they can then say Oh, this
  is the boxes we have chosen to use, which tends to just render spread
  of information and sharing of experience amongst the users.
 
  I expect them (NIST and other publicly funded institutions) to act like
  this. It is a bit annoying when you just want to know what they where
  using, but it's understandable. It is even more understandable as they
  start to list miss-features of device A, B and C, but not device D.
 
 
  It works both ways, when you have a device that you're particularly
  proud of, and it performs well in the tests, you want them to say Jim
  Lux's fabulous device performed orders of magnitude better than all
  other devices tested, particularly the unusually poor performance from
  the device from Magnus Danielson grin.
 No need to write that, as it is common knowledge that MD's device is not
 only of inferior quality and performance, but the residue of a hedgehog
 nest, at best. grin
 
  But there are also other forces at work.
 
  There are  cases where IEEE and authors were sued because of a paper
  that essentially said that a particular product not only didn't work,
  but that underlying physics guaranteed that it couldn't work.  (early
  streamer emission devices, and a paper by Mousa, in particular)
 
  It would be an amusing story, if all the litigation hadn't happened.
  For instance, Mousa reports on one installation where the lightning
  eliminator was completely destroyed by a lightning stroke.
  The traffic controllers at Tampa saw a flash of light during a storm,
  heard thunder and observed a shower of sparks drop past the tower
  window. A later visit to the rooftop revealed that a part of the charge
  dissipater array of Manufacturer “A” had disappeared.
 
 
  that would tend to drive authors to such circumlocutions as Brand X, etc.
 Oh yes. But we do these things over at this side of the pond, without
 having the use of the legal system, as seems customary on your side of
 the pond.
 
 Cheers,
 Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] Anyone Know What The Models Were In This NIST Paper?

[Tom Knox]

John the problem is the NIST does not endorse one brand vs another. They go to 
great lengths to stay neutral. But if knowledge of the products used sheds 
light on the research it is not a usually a problem.  I would say an educated 
guess the 6 and 8 channel receivers were oncores, and the rubidium oscillators 
were LPRO's.

Thomas Knox



 From: j...@westmorelandengineering.com
 Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2013 19:06:25 -0700
 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Anyone Know What The Models Were In This NIST Paper?
 
 Bob,
 
 Yes - well, it is a little dated - so I would think the chance for a
 competitive edge would have expired.  Maybe not for models C and D but I
 would certainly think so for Models A  B.
 
 There must be some sort of technical statute of limitations, correct?  ;)
 
 
 Regards,
 John Westmoreland
 
 
 
 On Tue, Oct 29, 2013 at 6:31 PM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote:
 
  Hi
 
  That’s always one of those “we can only tell you if you work for the US
  government” sort of things. If anybody knows it’s one of those “you better
  not tell” things.
 
  Bob
 
  On Oct 29, 2013, at 8:40 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. 
  j...@westmorelandengineering.com wrote:
 
   Hello,
  
   Does anyone know what Models A, B, C, and D were in this paper?  Or maybe
   had a good idea?
  
   http://www.nist.gov/customcf/get_pdf.cfm?pub_id=50196
  
   Thanks!
   John Westmoreland
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Re: [time-nuts] Splitter for GPS antenna suggestions?

[Tom Knox]

I think this discussion could use some parity. Some many options have been 
presented. But to return to one of the first posts, I would buy a Symmetricom 
Splitter on eBay. They have really become the industry standard and can be had 
for a reasonable price. There are certainly products that could be selected to 
meet your needs for less money but it will have some compromises, and there are 
others that could meet or perhaps even exceed Symmetricoms performance but are 
usually more money and are much less common on the surplus market. I would buy 
one with more ports then you need in case you ever want to test or install an 
additional GPS receivers. Remember If you buy the best you only cry once

Thomas Knox



 From: li...@rtty.us
 Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2013 08:00:32 -0400
 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Splitter for GPS antenna suggestions?
 
 Hi
 
 Pretty much all of the MiniCircuits splitters seem to happily pass DC. The 
 same is true of all of the TV splitters I've tried. The standard circuits (as 
 in the lowest cost) have a transformer or transmission line that has no DC 
 path to ground.
 
 Bob
  
 On Oct 26, 2013, at 12:58 AM, David okdavid5...@cox.net wrote:
 
  Hello --
  
  I'm not very knowledgeable electronically, but I am currently using a
  Minicircuits ZAPD-3DB-1575-3 splitter to connect one TrueTime 142-400 GPS
  antenna to a Spectracom 8183 and a Spectracom 8183-A. I use the Spectracoms
  only as precise digital clocks, and they seem to work just fine.
  
  I bought the Minicircuits splitter on eBay for $30, buy-it-now, as I recall,
  but it's been a while ago.
  
  Hope that's helpful.
  
  David in Oklahoma City
  
  -Original Message-
  From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
  Behalf Of Frank Hughes
  Sent: Friday, October 25, 2013 5:31 PM
  To: time-nuts@febo.com
  Subject: [time-nuts] Splitter for GPS antenna suggestions?
  
  Hi,
  I want to see if it is possible to feed both the Trimble TB and the Jackson
  Labs Fury from the existing antenna. It appears both the TB and the Fury are
  5vdc antenna power. 
  
  Checked the auction site for splitters, but before I randomly buy anything,
  could someone please suggest what they use that works?
  
  Thanks, and 73
  Frank
  KJ4OLL
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[time-nuts] HP 4193A 4815A probe compatibility?

[Tom Knox]

I hope this is not to far off topic. Does any one know if the 4193A and 4815A 
probe are physically interchangeable and electronically compatible? If not does 
anyone know the differences and how to identify which is which? If you feel 
this is to far off topic please contact me directly. Thanks very much.

Thomas Knox


  
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 4193A 4815A probe compatibility?

[Tom Knox]

Thanks Rick; There is so much conflicting information I do not know what to 
believe anymore. George sounds like the person to talk to. It sounds like an 
aftermarket probe would be a great way for someone to make a few extra dollars. 
I like the Tomco option, it looks like a nice instrument. Thanks Again.
Thomas Knox



 Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 11:16:27 -0700
 From: rich...@karlquist.com
 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 4193A 4815A probe compatibility?
 
 The 4815A used P channel FETs which were available 50 years ago
 and are now unobtainium.
 
 The 4193A used N channel FETs which were available 10 to 30 years
 ago and may even be currently available.
 
 They are DEFINITELY NOT INTERCHANGEABLE.
 
 This is according to ex-HP'er George Standford, who used to
 support vector impedance meters with HP's blessing.  He held
 the worlds remaining supply of P channel FETs for fixing probes.
 He was in New Jersey, but my contact info for him is no longer
 valid.
 
 I don't know how to identify them, but in principle an ohmmeter might
 be able to identify the polarity of the FETs.
 
 While we are on the topic, it turns out that the market is such
 that a 4193A with probe might sell for $5000, but if you break
 up the set, the probe is worth $4999 and the instrument is worth
 $1.  Well, maybe I exaggerated that a little, but not much :-)
 I actually know someone who paid $5000 for just a 4193 probe.
 He made the mistake of purchasing an instrument without a probe,
 and paid way too much.
 
 It is also worth noting that now you can buy a very nice vector
 impedance meter from Tomco in Austrailia for only $3000 new.
 I A/B'ed one of these with an HP one, and I will have to admit
 that the Tomco is the real deal, not a cheap knockoff.
 
 Rick Karlquist N6RK
 
 
 On 2013-10-16 09:15, Tom Knox wrote:
  I hope this is not to far off topic. Does any one know if the 4193A
  and 4815A probe are physically interchangeable and electronically
  compatible? If not does anyone know the differences and how to
  identify which is which? If you feel this is to far off topic please
  contact me directly. Thanks very much.
  
  Thomas Knox
  
  
  
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 -- 
 
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 4193A 4815A probe compatibility?

[Tom Knox]

I agree the 54701A is really a great product. Great point on attenuation, I 
always forget the 10x attn value changes when not being used on a O-Scope as a 
voltage probe.
Thanks;
Thomas Knox



 From: saidj...@aol.com
 Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 15:22:13 -0400
 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 4193A 4815A probe compatibility?
 
 Hi Rick, Tom,
  
 one little bit of knowledge I learned: I like the HP 54701A FET probes for  
 frequency-domain stuff.
  
 Available for $300 on Ebay sometimes. I built a small power supply for  one 
 of mine, and use it as a probe for my Spectrum analyzer and scopes. Almost  
 indestructable.
  
 It works really well up to about 3GHz and beyond, especially for relative  
 measurements.
  
 The only disadvantage is that it has 100K resistance to ground which may  
 affect sensitive capacitive circuits, and that it has 20dB attenuation.
  
 Otherwise it works really well for Spectrum analyzer and Network analyzer  
 applications.
  
 bye,
 Said
  
  
 In a message dated 10/16/2013 11:33:11 Pacific Daylight Time,  
 rich...@karlquist.com writes:
 
 The  4815A used P channel FETs which were available 50 years ago
 and are now  unobtainium.
 
 The 4193A used N channel FETs which were available 10 to  30 years
 ago and may even be currently available.
 
 They are  DEFINITELY NOT INTERCHANGEABLE.
 
 This is according to ex-HP'er George  Standford, who used to
 support vector impedance meters with HP's  blessing.  He held
 the worlds remaining supply of P channel FETs for  fixing probes.
 He was in New Jersey, but my contact info for him is no  longer
 valid.
 
 I don't know how to identify them, but in principle an  ohmmeter might
 be able to identify the polarity of the FETs.
 
 While  we are on the topic, it turns out that the market is such
 that a 4193A with  probe might sell for $5000, but if you break
 up the set, the probe is worth  $4999 and the instrument is worth
 $1.  Well, maybe I exaggerated that  a little, but not much :-)
 I actually know someone who paid $5000 for just  a 4193 probe.
 He made the mistake of purchasing an instrument without a  probe,
 and paid way too much.
 
 It is also worth noting that now you  can buy a very nice vector
 impedance meter from Tomco in Austrailia for  only $3000 new.
 I A/B'ed one of these with an HP one, and I will have to  admit
 that the Tomco is the real deal, not a cheap knockoff.
 
 Rick  Karlquist N6RK
 
 
 On 2013-10-16 09:15, Tom Knox wrote:
  I hope  this is not to far off topic. Does any one know if the 4193A
  and 4815A  probe are physically interchangeable and electronically
  compatible? If  not does anyone know the differences and how to
  identify which is  which? If you feel this is to far off topic please
  contact me  directly. Thanks very much.
  
  Thomas Knox
  
   
 
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 --  
 
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Re: [time-nuts] Need Fluke 6071A synthesizer info

[Tom Knox]

Hi Ed;
This may help:
http://www.ko4bb.com/Manuals/Fluke/Fluke_6071/Fluke_6071_Service_Manual-1.pdf
http://www.davmar.org/Spec/Fluke6070A-spec2.pdf
Best Wishes;
Thomas Knox

Ascent Concepts and Technology

4475 Whitney Place
Boulder Colorado 80305

1-303-554-0307

 Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 08:44:12 -0700
 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 From: e...@telight.com
 Subject: [time-nuts] Need Fluke 6071A synthesizer info
 
 I recently acquired a Fluke 6071A, and have found some pieces of the 
 service and operating manuals, but not the schematics. Does anyone 
 know where the schematics can be found? This unit looks pretty good 
 except the FREQ and UNCAL indicators are flashing. I managed to 
 decipher enough of the diagnostic error code info to find the 
 sub-synthesizer loop is unlocked, and I hope that adjustment of its 
 VCO will fix it. This section is of course buried inside the inner 
 layers of the RF deck stack, so will be tricky to get at and rig for 
 temporary running while opened up. The manual info is good for 
 figuring this out, but the schematics would of course be a big help 
 for this and future maintenance.
 
 Is there any kind of fluke-nuts group on febo.com? I think there's a 
 fluke group at yahoo, but that stupid neo form of groups interface is 
 so screwed up that I'm reluctant to join any more yahoo groups. I 
 will probably have to try anyway for this one.
 
 I also vaguely recall that in recent months this model was noted as 
 being pretty good in terms of phase noise for time-nuts purposes, but 
 I couldn't find it in the discussions.
 
 Ed
 
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Re: [time-nuts] A man with two clocks...

[Tom Knox]

It is all a matter of proper placement, now I know you are expecting a tirade 
on propagation delay and antenna placement and cable length. But actually my 
thought is to place them far enough apart with the WWV clock in front of your 
and your GPS at a 12-15 degree angle so it takes 0.2 second to look from one to 
the other.

Thomas Knox



 From: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk
 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 19:22:04 +0100
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] A man with two clocks...
 
 Among my time nut toys is a Consumer grade GPS clock and a similar WWVB
 clock.  The WWVB clock consistently runs about 0.2 seconds ahead of the GPS
 one.  I know no one can say why without knowing the particulars of the two
 clock's circuits.  Just thought I'd post it for what it's worth.
 
 Regards.
 
 Max.  K 4 O DS.
 ===
 
 Max,
 
 I see similar things here.  I've always put it down to relatively poor 
 circuitry in the radio clock, which is why I built my NTP-controlled wall 
 clock!
 
   http://www.satsignal.eu/raspberry-pi/DigitalClock.html
 
 One radio clock is below.  That particular MSF clock is actually not too 
 bad - visibly it's in sync with the NTP clock (which itself is within a few 
 microseconds of GPS time).
 
 73,
 David GM8ARV
 -- 
 SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements
 Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
 Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk 
 
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