[time-nuts] Loran-C Norway/France/Germany shutdown

[John Seamons]

Looks like Sylt went off-air in addition to the Norway and France stations. 
Perhaps it is not a permanent decommissioning.
http://www.jks.com/signals/loran/LV.shutdown1.jpg

The above capture from the Loran-C Live Grabber site of Markus Vester, DF6NM:
http://www.df6nm.bplaced.net/LoranView/LoranGrabber.htm

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Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C Norway/France/Germany shutdown

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message , John Seamons writes:

>Looks like Sylt went off-air in addition to the Norway and France
>stations. Perhaps it is not a permanent decommissioning.

Yup, I have all NELS LORSTAs off the air here.

But interestingly Anthorn, 6731Y, is still up.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C Europe

[paul swed]

Yes indeed interesting that Anthorn's going at 0300 UTC.
Our friends in the UK celebrating perhaps? Or something else cooking?
You only need one station for frequency with the ole austrons.
By the way when I could get lock it was the Lessay station 6371 I think.
Only ever did that in the winter and when the sun was down in both
locations. It was tough.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Thu, Dec 31, 2015 at 9:07 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts <
time-nuts@febo.com> wrote:

> As far as I can tell, in the 6731 chain there is just one  station still
> operating, this at 0200 on 1st January 2016.
>
> My FS700s are reporting no master found so Lessay has gone, and I suspect
> Soustons also.
> Without the master I'm not seeing any identification of the one station I'm
>  now receiving but I'm sure from its monitored signal that it's Anthorn.
> Let's hope this one keeps going for a while.
>
> Regards, and best wishes to all for 2016
>
> Nigel
> GM8PZR
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C Norway/France/Germany shutdown

[GandalfG8--- via time-nuts]

Looks like Sylt went off-air in addition to the Norway and France stations.
Perhaps it is not a permanent decommissioning.


 
It might just be coincidence, but at around 0145 on Jan 1st the  Sylt web 
site link on the Loran-C Europe web site was reporting a 404 not found  
error:-(
 
Regards
 
Nigel
GM8PZR
 
 
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C Norway/France/Germany shutdown

[Thomas S. Knutsen]

FWIW, Loran-C at Jan-Mayen was shut down at 1200NT (1100UTC).
Info from: http://jan.mayen.no/nyheter/en-aera-er-forbi/

I will check with a friend at Bø station on monday regarding the rest of
the norwegian stations.

BR.
Thomas.

2016-01-01 3:16 GMT+01:00 GandalfG8--- via time-nuts :

>
> Looks like Sylt went off-air in addition to the Norway and France stations.
> Perhaps it is not a permanent decommissioning.
>
> 
>
> It might just be coincidence, but at around 0145 on Jan 1st the  Sylt web
> site link on the Loran-C Europe web site was reporting a 404 not found
> error:-(
>
> Regards
>
> Nigel
> GM8PZR
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C Norway/France/Germany shutdown

[paul swed]

Here is a comment I had made on one thread.
Yes indeed interesting that Anthorn's going at 0300 UTC.
Our friends in the UK celebrating perhaps? Or something else cooking?
You only need one station for frequency with the ole austrons.
By the way when I could get lock it was the Lessay station 6371 I think.
Only ever did that in the winter and when the sun was down in both
locations. It was tough.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Thu, Dec 31, 2015 at 9:16 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts <
time-nuts@febo.com> wrote:

>
> Looks like Sylt went off-air in addition to the Norway and France stations.
> Perhaps it is not a permanent decommissioning.
>
> 
>
> It might just be coincidence, but at around 0145 on Jan 1st the  Sylt web
> site link on the Loran-C Europe web site was reporting a 404 not found
> error:-(
>
> Regards
>
> Nigel
> GM8PZR
>
>
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[time-nuts] Loran-C Europe

[GandalfG8--- via time-nuts]

As far as I can tell, in the 6731 chain there is just one  station still 
operating, this at 0200 on 1st January 2016.
 
My FS700s are reporting no master found so Lessay has gone, and I suspect  
Soustons also.
Without the master I'm not seeing any identification of the one station I'm 
 now receiving but I'm sure from its monitored signal that it's Anthorn.
Let's hope this one keeps going for a while.
 
Regards, and best wishes to all for 2016
 
Nigel
GM8PZR
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[billriches]

FYI Wildwood eLoran will be fired up 1300Z Saturday (today) and 1900Z Monday
thru Thursday.  Happy listening.  Any reports would be appreciated and I
will pass them along to the engineer that is driving the train.

73,

Bill, WA2DVU
Cape Mahy

-Original Message-
From: billriches [mailto:bill.ric...@verizon.net] 
Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2015 10:04 PM
To: 'billriches'; 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: RE: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...


FYI GRI for Wildwood is 8970.

Bill, WA2DVU
Cape May


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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[billriches]

Correction on times for Mon - thurs - start 900 edst - 1300Z


-Original Message-
From: billriches [mailto:bill.ric...@verizon.net] 
Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2015 7:05 AM
To: 'billriches'; 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: RE: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

FYI Wildwood eLoran will be fired up 1300Z Saturday (today) and 1300Z Monday
thru Thursday.  Happy listening.  Any reports would be appreciated and I
will pass them along to the engineer that is driving the train.

73,

Bill, WA2DVU
Cape Mahy

-Original Message-
From: billriches [mailto:bill.ric...@verizon.net]
Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2015 10:04 PM
To: 'billriches'; 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: RE: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...


FYI GRI for Wildwood is 8970.

Bill, WA2DVU
Cape May


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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[paul swed]

OK LORAN is on the air up in Boston.
I had just turned off various equipment this morning.
So starting it back up after testing it yesterday.
Lots of large static crashes.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Sat, Jul 18, 2015 at 7:04 AM, billriches bill.ric...@verizon.net wrote:

 FYI Wildwood eLoran will be fired up 1300Z Saturday (today) and 1900Z
 Monday
 thru Thursday.  Happy listening.  Any reports would be appreciated and I
 will pass them along to the engineer that is driving the train.

 73,

 Bill, WA2DVU
 Cape Mahy

 -Original Message-
 From: billriches [mailto:bill.ric...@verizon.net]
 Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2015 10:04 PM
 To: 'billriches'; 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
 Subject: RE: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...


 FYI GRI for Wildwood is 8970.

 Bill, WA2DVU
 Cape May


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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[Scott McGrath]

What GRI is in use I'll fire up my austron as well Central NH location

Content by Scott
Typos by Siri

 On Jul 18, 2015, at 1:42 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Bill I will let you know what the Austrons say for signal level. Fact is
 they locked up fast.
 My FS700 is taking its time.
 
 Graham it will sound different as there are no competing stations on other
 GRIs. Thats the very first thing that hits you. Additionally its only 1
 station. But that same station is sending the master and secondary delayed
 emission. Its simply not the same ole sound. But it still works very well
 for checking frequency.
 
 Regards
 Paul
 WB8TSL
 
 On Sat, Jul 18, 2015 at 12:52 PM, billriches bill.ric...@verizon.net
 wrote:
 
 Correction on times for Mon - thurs - start 900 edst - 1300Z
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: billriches [mailto:bill.ric...@verizon.net]
 Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2015 7:05 AM
 To: 'billriches'; 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
 Subject: RE: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...
 
 FYI Wildwood eLoran will be fired up 1300Z Saturday (today) and 1300Z
 Monday
 thru Thursday.  Happy listening.  Any reports would be appreciated and I
 will pass them along to the engineer that is driving the train.
 
 73,
 
 Bill, WA2DVU
 Cape Mahy
 
 -Original Message-
 From: billriches [mailto:bill.ric...@verizon.net]
 Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2015 10:04 PM
 To: 'billriches'; 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
 Subject: RE: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...
 
 
 FYI GRI for Wildwood is 8970.
 
 Bill, WA2DVU
 Cape May
 
 
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[billriches]

Hi Paul - how do you figure boston?  The only station up is Wildwood, NJ

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of paul swed
Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2015 1:15 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

OK LORAN is on the air up in Boston.
I had just turned off various equipment this morning.
So starting it back up after testing it yesterday.
Lots of large static crashes.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Sat, Jul 18, 2015 at 7:04 AM, billriches bill.ric...@verizon.net wrote:

 FYI Wildwood eLoran will be fired up 1300Z Saturday (today) and 1900Z 
 Monday thru Thursday.  Happy listening.  Any reports would be 
 appreciated and I will pass them along to the engineer that is driving 
 the train.

 73,

 Bill, WA2DVU
 Cape Mahy

 -Original Message-
 From: billriches [mailto:bill.ric...@verizon.net]
 Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2015 10:04 PM
 To: 'billriches'; 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
 Subject: RE: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...


 FYI GRI for Wildwood is 8970.

 Bill, WA2DVU
 Cape May


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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[paul swed]

Bill I will let you know what the Austrons say for signal level. Fact is
they locked up fast.
My FS700 is taking its time.

Graham it will sound different as there are no competing stations on other
GRIs. Thats the very first thing that hits you. Additionally its only 1
station. But that same station is sending the master and secondary delayed
emission. Its simply not the same ole sound. But it still works very well
for checking frequency.

Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Sat, Jul 18, 2015 at 12:52 PM, billriches bill.ric...@verizon.net
wrote:

 Correction on times for Mon - thurs - start 900 edst - 1300Z


 -Original Message-
 From: billriches [mailto:bill.ric...@verizon.net]
 Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2015 7:05 AM
 To: 'billriches'; 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
 Subject: RE: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

 FYI Wildwood eLoran will be fired up 1300Z Saturday (today) and 1300Z
 Monday
 thru Thursday.  Happy listening.  Any reports would be appreciated and I
 will pass them along to the engineer that is driving the train.

 73,

 Bill, WA2DVU
 Cape Mahy

 -Original Message-
 From: billriches [mailto:bill.ric...@verizon.net]
 Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2015 10:04 PM
 To: 'billriches'; 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
 Subject: RE: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...


 FYI GRI for Wildwood is 8970.

 Bill, WA2DVU
 Cape May


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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[Graham]

As expected, loud and clear near Ottawa Canada, approximately 380 
nautical miles.


It does sound different from my recollection of Loran. However, this is 
only one station transmitting where as before it would have been several 
at the same time with different GRI's.


cheers, Graham ve3gtc



On 2015-07-18 11:04, billriches wrote:

FYI Wildwood eLoran will be fired up 1300Z Saturday (today) and 1900Z Monday
thru Thursday.  Happy listening.  Any reports would be appreciated and I
will pass them along to the engineer that is driving the train.

73,

Bill, WA2DVU
Cape Mahy

-Original Message-
From: billriches [mailto:bill.ric...@verizon.net]
Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2015 10:04 PM
To: 'billriches'; 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: RE: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...


FYI GRI for Wildwood is 8970.

Bill, WA2DVU
Cape May


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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[Brian Inglis]

Look at how well a couple of projects have gone:

o  privatize NIST NTP server operation - the NTP pool is recommended everywhere
and good enough for most; separate providers supply high accuracy, precision,
and stability timing for financial markets internationally; and GPS serves the 
rest

o  provide WWVB PM decoders - older precision timing equipment no longer works; 
but
compatibility for RC Atomic clocks and watches was maintained; does not appear
that there is any commercial interest in developing decoders; the new PM 
features
might as well be dropped, or they could go back to the old AM format.

See also the UT1 NTP service 
http://www.nist.gov/pml/div688/grp40/ut1_ntp_description.cfm
which states it will use IERS schedule A data, and may offer only the weekly 
official
projections rather than the daily rapid predictions, which vary by 0.1ms; they 
also
mention providing DUT1 and EOP data as a text string from a separate service.
They may be looking at this for a UTC like backup if the ITU drops the 
leapsecond.

But the US, EU, Russia, China, and Japan can each afford a GNSS constellation,
with upgraded features as desired.
If a country can not provide an adequate market for products, then they will 
have to
either do without a backup, ormake do with what markets elsewhere demand - 
eLoran.

OTOH the civil business focus of currently successful projects leads me to hope 
that the
ITU will be told to leave UTC alone as a legal and political requirement for 
solar civil
time, use TAI or GPS time if they want to keep to a uniform time scale, or come 
up with
a better time scale of their own.

--
Take care. Thanks, Brian Inglis


On 2015-07-14 16:49, Bob Camp wrote:

Not to be to much of a downer here but …..

Loran for timing and an “Eastern WWVB” are two projects that seem to each have a
life of their own. They seem to come up on some sort of cycle related to sun 
spots.
Both have zero (or possibly less than that) percent mind share among those who
would need to implement them into systems. Since there is major cost on the 
systems
end, it would take “mandatory use” legislation to get them designed in. Without 
those
design in’s, *having* a backup system is pretty useless. You are talking about 
billions of
dollars and years of effort to hook them up ….

If you are talking about “infinite budget” military systems, some of that may 
happen. I
notice in the papers that “infinite budget” does not seem to apply to the US 
DOD these
days. For commercial systems, nobody will significantly cut into profits to do 
something like this.

Should they do this - sure. Will they do it - nope.



On Jul 14, 2015, at 4:49 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:



The reason to stay with the LORAN C style pulses is very very simple. It
allows our time-nuts Austrons and SRS to work. Its the only way I get any
of my tax dollars back. :-)
The good news is no official government person reads time-nuts.



On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 12:16 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dk
wrote:



In message 55a4ac81.1030...@rubidium.dyndns.org, Magnus Danielson
writes:

The safety is
relative, in that it takes quite a bit of more infrastructure compared
to the jamming of GPS, and that lies in the wavelength of the signal
than anything else.


If the goal is a reliable backup for GPS, there are smarter ways to
use the 100kHz band than Loran-C pulses, and there really isn't much
reason to stay compatible with Loran-C receivers.

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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[David McGaw]

Loran-C had absolute accuracy to 500nS but repeatability much better, 
usually to about 20 meters position or 60 nS (if you mark the position 
of a buoy you can get back to it very closely).  eLoran is a significant 
improvement and appears to be able to get to 8 meters absolute position 
or about 25 nS timing.  Each transmitter would have its own cesium clock 
instead of the slaves relying on the master and propagation corrections 
would be cataloged and disseminated.


David N1HAC


On 7/15/15 12:29 PM, paul swed wrote:

John
I don't know if there was. But the timing receivers like the Austrons and
SRS could really derive very accurate frequencies especially if you lived
60 miles from the transmitter. :-)
Regards
Paul.
WB8TSL

On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 4:23 AM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. 
j...@westmorelandengineering.com wrote:


Time-Nuts,

Was better than 500 nS accuracy ever achieved with Loran?

73's,
John Westmoreland
AJ6BC


On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 10:18 PM, Dale Cannon dalec...@cfl.rr.com wrote:


Folks,



I know that there is a longing for LORAN-C to return, but this weekend, I
did a Google Maps flyover of each of the US LORAN-C stations (takes less
than an hour). Almost all of the antennas are gone and there are no cars

in

the parking lots (except at Seneca which became an Army depot). This

means

that the equipment is probably gone, too. Or maybe this stuff will show

up

at auction or on E-Bay and that would solve the Austron receiver

problem..



 Dale Cannon, KS4FA







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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message 07538A701D6E4F8D804BD567DD794693@gnat, Alan Melia writes:

I mean that a Loran-C signal designed as I proposed in a previous
email would not do that, because it wouldn't have the groups and
GRI-peridodicties which cause the splatter up and down the band.

It just depends what you mean by that :-) I could lock to Lessay and Anthorn 
at frequencies in the 136kHz amateur band, using some S/N DSP software 
writen by Peter Matinez G3PLX.

If you look at the spectral width of the existing Loran-C (or
similar) waveform, it’s a massive thing. You would have a hard time
coming up with something that spreads more crud around the VLF range.

 The reason Loran-C spreads crud is *only* the combinationa of the
 pulse-groups and the periodicity of the GRI.

 The pulses themselves are entirely contained inside the allocated
 frequency band.


-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[Bob Camp]

Hi

I think the WWVB PM stuff is relevant to Loran in the US. We have (pretty much) 
the most
involved group of “customers” for that signal here on the list. As far as I 
have seen, the only
project that has gone past the talk stage is the converter to drive the old(er) 
WWVB gear. 
Even with our level of interest, there are no working decoder projects out 
there. We may not
be the main target audience, but we are the ones most likely to toss together a 
home built
receiver. 

Dropping something like Loran into an already working system faces the same 
sort of 
barriers. If the system is working (now) - why bother? If it’s not working, do 
the minimum 
cost (time / risk / labor) fix for the issue. Explaining to the boss why the 
(say) 5X higher cost
solution is the one you picked is not going to get very far. Giving the same 
explanation to 
grandmother (when her bill goes up)  is going to be a bit harder still. 

I would not be surprised if the number of GPS equipped devices US exceeded the 
population by
some signifiant factor. They get used. The total population of Loran gear that 
was in use (not in 
storage, not in a rack powered down) in the US in 2000 probably would fit in my 
garage. The market
speaks…..

Bob

 On Jul 15, 2015, at 10:33 PM, Brian Inglis brian.ing...@systematicsw.ab.ca 
 wrote:
 
 Look at how well a couple of projects have gone:
 
 o  privatize NIST NTP server operation - the NTP pool is recommended 
 everywhere
 and good enough for most; separate providers supply high accuracy, precision,
 and stability timing for financial markets internationally; and GPS serves 
 the rest
 
 o  provide WWVB PM decoders - older precision timing equipment no longer 
 works; but
 compatibility for RC Atomic clocks and watches was maintained; does not 
 appear
 that there is any commercial interest in developing decoders; the new PM 
 features
 might as well be dropped, or they could go back to the old AM format.
 
 See also the UT1 NTP service 
 http://www.nist.gov/pml/div688/grp40/ut1_ntp_description.cfm
 which states it will use IERS schedule A data, and may offer only the weekly 
 official
 projections rather than the daily rapid predictions, which vary by 0.1ms; 
 they also
 mention providing DUT1 and EOP data as a text string from a separate service.
 They may be looking at this for a UTC like backup if the ITU drops the 
 leapsecond.
 
 But the US, EU, Russia, China, and Japan can each afford a GNSS constellation,
 with upgraded features as desired.
 If a country can not provide an adequate market for products, then they will 
 have to
 either do without a backup, ormake do with what markets elsewhere demand - 
 eLoran.
 
 OTOH the civil business focus of currently successful projects leads me to 
 hope that the
 ITU will be told to leave UTC alone as a legal and political requirement for 
 solar civil
 time, use TAI or GPS time if they want to keep to a uniform time scale, or 
 come up with
 a better time scale of their own.
 
 -- 
 Take care. Thanks, Brian Inglis
 
 
 On 2015-07-14 16:49, Bob Camp wrote:
 Not to be to much of a downer here but …..
 
 Loran for timing and an “Eastern WWVB” are two projects that seem to each 
 have a
 life of their own. They seem to come up on some sort of cycle related to sun 
 spots.
 Both have zero (or possibly less than that) percent mind share among those 
 who
 would need to implement them into systems. Since there is major cost on the 
 systems
 end, it would take “mandatory use” legislation to get them designed in. 
 Without those
 design in’s, *having* a backup system is pretty useless. You are talking 
 about billions of
 dollars and years of effort to hook them up ….
 
 If you are talking about “infinite budget” military systems, some of that 
 may happen. I
 notice in the papers that “infinite budget” does not seem to apply to the US 
 DOD these
 days. For commercial systems, nobody will significantly cut into profits to 
 do something like this.
 
 Should they do this - sure. Will they do it - nope.
 
 On Jul 14, 2015, at 4:49 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 The reason to stay with the LORAN C style pulses is very very simple. It
 allows our time-nuts Austrons and SRS to work. Its the only way I get any
 of my tax dollars back. :-)
 The good news is no official government person reads time-nuts.
 
 On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 12:16 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dk
 wrote:
 
 In message 55a4ac81.1030...@rubidium.dyndns.org, Magnus Danielson
 writes:
 The safety is
 relative, in that it takes quite a bit of more infrastructure compared
 to the jamming of GPS, and that lies in the wavelength of the signal
 than anything else.
 
 If the goal is a reliable backup for GPS, there are smarter ways to
 use the 100kHz band than Loran-C pulses, and there really isn't much
 reason to stay compatible with Loran-C receivers.
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 To unsubscribe, go to 

Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[billriches]

No sigs yet - I am friends with the tech at Wildwood and also have a monitor 
(with squelch) on the fx.  Will advise list when they fire up.

73,

Bill, WA2DVU
Cape May, NJ - Just a few miles away from Wildwood.

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of David McGaw
Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2015 11:32 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

The word is that eLoran IS on in the US from Wildwood as of June 19.  
Has anyone noticed the signal?

http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/news/loran-navigation-signal-back-on-and-better-than-before/article_21d19298-16d0-11e5-9a69-1343edc2e90b.html

There is also a bill in the US House to reinstate Loran-C as eLoran.

David N1HAC


On 7/14/15 6:49 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
 Hi

 Not to be to much of a downer here but …..

 Loran for timing and an “Eastern WWVB” are two projects that seem to 
 each have a life of their own. They seem to come up on some sort of cycle 
 related to sun spots.
 Both have zero (or possibly less than that) percent mind share among 
 those who would need to implement them into systems. Since there is 
 major cost on the systems end, it would take “mandatory use” 
 legislation to get them designed in. Without those design in’s, 
 *having* a backup system is pretty useless. You are talking about billions of 
 dollars and years of effort to hook them up ….

 If you are talking about “infinite budget” military systems, some of 
 that may happen. I notice in the papers that “infinite budget” does 
 not seem to apply to the US DOD these days. For commercial systems, nobody 
 will significantly cut into profits to do something like this.

 Should they do this - sure. Will they do it - nope.

 Bob

 On Jul 14, 2015, at 4:49 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:

 Poul-Henning,
 The reason to stay with the LORAN C style pulses is very very simple. 
 It allows our time-nuts Austrons and SRS to work. Its the only way I 
 get any of my tax dollars back. :-) The good news is no official 
 government person reads time-nuts.
 Regards
 Paul


 On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 12:16 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp 
 p...@phk.freebsd.dk
 wrote:

 
 In message 55a4ac81.1030...@rubidium.dyndns.org, Magnus Danielson
 writes:

 The safety is
 relative, in that it takes quite a bit of more infrastructure 
 compared to the jamming of GPS, and that lies in the wavelength of 
 the signal than anything else.
 If the goal is a reliable backup for GPS, there are smarter ways to 
 use the 100kHz band than Loran-C pulses, and there really isn't much 
 reason to stay compatible with Loran-C receivers.

 --
 Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
 FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
 Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[billriches]

Station in Wildwood, California, and mid west are sort of intact.

Bill, WA2DVU

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Dale Cannon
Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2015 1:18 AM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

Folks,

 

I know that there is a longing for LORAN-C to return, but this weekend, I
did a Google Maps flyover of each of the US LORAN-C stations (takes less
than an hour). Almost all of the antennas are gone and there are no cars in
the parking lots (except at Seneca which became an Army depot). This means
that the equipment is probably gone, too. Or maybe this stuff will show up
at auction or on E-Bay and that would solve the Austron receiver problem..

 

Dale Cannon, KS4FA

 

 

 

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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[Alan Melia]

It just depends what you mean by that :-) I could lock to Lessay and Anthorn 
at frequencies in the 136kHz amateur band, using some S/N DSP software 
writen by Peter Matinez G3PLX.


Alan
G3NYK
- Original Message - 
From: Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dk
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com; Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org

Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2015 7:41 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...




In message 3e8a4741-f565-4d2f-834f-62eca1ca1...@n1k.org, Bob Camp 
writes:



If you look at the spectral width of the existing Loran-C (or
similar) waveform, it’s a massive thing. You would have a hard time
coming up with something that spreads more crud around the VLF range.


The reason Loran-C spreads crud is *only* the combinationa of the
pulse-groups and the periodicity of the GRI.

The pulses themselves are entirely contained inside the allocated
frequency band.


--
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by 
incompetence.

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[time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[Dale Cannon]

Folks,

 

I know that there is a longing for LORAN-C to return, but this weekend, I
did a Google Maps flyover of each of the US LORAN-C stations (takes less
than an hour). Almost all of the antennas are gone and there are no cars in
the parking lots (except at Seneca which became an Army depot). This means
that the equipment is probably gone, too. Or maybe this stuff will show up
at auction or on E-Bay and that would solve the Austron receiver problem..

 

Dale Cannon, KS4FA

 

 

 

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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[paul swed]

John
I don't know if there was. But the timing receivers like the Austrons and
SRS could really derive very accurate frequencies especially if you lived
60 miles from the transmitter. :-)
Regards
Paul.
WB8TSL

On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 4:23 AM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. 
j...@westmorelandengineering.com wrote:

 Time-Nuts,

 Was better than 500 nS accuracy ever achieved with Loran?

 73's,
 John Westmoreland
 AJ6BC


 On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 10:18 PM, Dale Cannon dalec...@cfl.rr.com wrote:

  Folks,
 
 
 
  I know that there is a longing for LORAN-C to return, but this weekend, I
  did a Google Maps flyover of each of the US LORAN-C stations (takes less
  than an hour). Almost all of the antennas are gone and there are no cars
 in
  the parking lots (except at Seneca which became an Army depot). This
 means
  that the equipment is probably gone, too. Or maybe this stuff will show
 up
  at auction or on E-Bay and that would solve the Austron receiver
 problem..
 
 
 
  Dale Cannon, KS4FA
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message cad2jfai8ykhzqyci++pr8cezmgwy+fh3edusgwfysde50ff...@mail.gmail.com
, paul swed writes:

I don't know if there was. But the timing receivers like the Austrons and
SRS could really derive very accurate frequencies especially if you lived
60 miles from the transmitter. :-)

Distance makes a lot of difference.

Short is good, in particular if there is no major variable water
(lakes or groundwater) between you and the transmitter.

The only downside to really short distance is that the sky-wave
comes crashing down in no time, so tracking on the 3rd zero-crossing
is very important.

I have an animation showing typical skywaves at around 200km distance
from Sylt here:

http://phk.freebsd.dk/AducLoran/animation2.gif

When skywaves are bad, they are as high or higher amplitude as the
grounwave and arrive earlier than usual, but I have not managed to
capture that and the capture process I use is to resource intensive
to run constantly.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[Doug Ronald]

 Speaking of which, here is a  typical Loran-C item the government is selling 
 for virtually scrap prices. There are a couple of these big-boy feedthroughs 
 in this sale alone:
http://www.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=9831977

-Doug W6DSR

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Dale Cannon
Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2015 10:18 PM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

Folks,

I know that there is a longing for LORAN-C to return, but this weekend, I did a 
Google Maps flyover of each of the US LORAN-C stations (takes less than an 
hour). Almost all of the antennas are gone and there are no cars in the parking 
lots (except at Seneca which became an Army depot). This means that the 
equipment is probably gone, too. Or maybe this stuff will show up at auction or 
on E-Bay and that would solve the Austron receiver problem..

Dale Cannon, KS4FA

 

 

 

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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message 3e8a4741-f565-4d2f-834f-62eca1ca1...@n1k.org, Bob Camp writes:

If you look at the spectral width of the existing Loran-C (or
similar) waveform, it’s a massive thing. You would have a hard time
coming up with something that spreads more crud around the VLF range.

The reason Loran-C spreads crud is *only* the combinationa of the
pulse-groups and the periodicity of the GRI.

The pulses themselves are entirely contained inside the allocated
frequency band.


-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Time-Nuts,

Was better than 500 nS accuracy ever achieved with Loran?

73's,
John Westmoreland
AJ6BC


On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 10:18 PM, Dale Cannon dalec...@cfl.rr.com wrote:

 Folks,



 I know that there is a longing for LORAN-C to return, but this weekend, I
 did a Google Maps flyover of each of the US LORAN-C stations (takes less
 than an hour). Almost all of the antennas are gone and there are no cars in
 the parking lots (except at Seneca which became an Army depot). This means
 that the equipment is probably gone, too. Or maybe this stuff will show up
 at auction or on E-Bay and that would solve the Austron receiver problem..



 Dale Cannon, KS4FA







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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[paul swed]

I did fire up the srs last week and did not here it?
I will fire up a LF receiver and listen. Perhaps my preamp is sick.
Regards
Paul.

On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 11:32 PM, David McGaw n1...@dartmouth.edu wrote:

 The word is that eLoran IS on in the US from Wildwood as of June 19.  Has
 anyone noticed the signal?


 http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/news/loran-navigation-signal-back-on-and-better-than-before/article_21d19298-16d0-11e5-9a69-1343edc2e90b.html

 There is also a bill in the US House to reinstate Loran-C as eLoran.

 David N1HAC



 On 7/14/15 6:49 PM, Bob Camp wrote:

 Hi

 Not to be to much of a downer here but …..

 Loran for timing and an “Eastern WWVB” are two projects that seem to each
 have a
 life of their own. They seem to come up on some sort of cycle related to
 sun spots.
 Both have zero (or possibly less than that) percent mind share among
 those who
 would need to implement them into systems. Since there is major cost on
 the systems
 end, it would take “mandatory use” legislation to get them designed in.
 Without those
 design in’s, *having* a backup system is pretty useless. You are talking
 about billions of
 dollars and years of effort to hook them up ….

 If you are talking about “infinite budget” military systems, some of that
 may happen. I
 notice in the papers that “infinite budget” does not seem to apply to the
 US DOD these
 days. For commercial systems, nobody will significantly cut into profits
 to do something like this.

 Should they do this - sure. Will they do it - nope.

 Bob

  On Jul 14, 2015, at 4:49 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:

 Poul-Henning,
 The reason to stay with the LORAN C style pulses is very very simple. It
 allows our time-nuts Austrons and SRS to work. Its the only way I get any
 of my tax dollars back. :-)
 The good news is no official government person reads time-nuts.
 Regards
 Paul


 On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 12:16 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dk
 wrote:

  
 In message 55a4ac81.1030...@rubidium.dyndns.org, Magnus Danielson
 writes:

  The safety is
 relative, in that it takes quite a bit of more infrastructure compared
 to the jamming of GPS, and that lies in the wavelength of the signal
 than anything else.

 If the goal is a reliable backup for GPS, there are smarter ways to
 use the 100kHz band than Loran-C pulses, and there really isn't much
 reason to stay compatible with Loran-C receivers.

 --
 Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
 FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
 Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by
 incompetence.
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message 73568e39-9467-4192-aeb8-c9c14a2bb...@n1k.org, Bob Camp writes:

I notice in the papers that “infinite budget” does not seem to
apply to the US DOD these days.

*cough* F-35 *cough* B61-mod12 *cough*

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi,

There is indeed investigations going on about what the cost of receivers 
would be etc. A benefit of Loran-C is that relative jamming/spoofing 
resistance can be had without the need of opening up for keyed 
receivers. This helps for non-military and non-government operations. 
Now, there is tamper-proof GPS receivers that can use the keyed signal 
for increased signal stability, but I wonder to what degree they are 
deployed. Then, naturally the military can have use for these receivers. 
Work is in progress, but we do not yet know the outcome, but they do ask 
about what it would cost and what performance one would get. It will be 
interesting to follow.


While LORAN-C is sold as jamming/spooing resistant, that is based on 
the assumption that nobody would raise a 200 m tower undetected. True, 
but we now know that it was done for that purpose. The safety is 
relative, in that it takes quite a bit of more infrastructure compared 
to the jamming of GPS, and that lies in the wavelength of the signal 
than anything else.


Cheers,
Magnus

On 07/14/2015 04:56 AM, skipp Isaham via time-nuts wrote:

Does anyone know of any other genuinely useful purpose to which the
Austron 2100F, SRS FS700, etc receivers can be put in the US since the
demise of Loran?


I've heard Loran C in some form will be returning.  GPS is not jam proof and 
that
seems to have caught the attention of our government. Although some locations
have already been dismantled to some large degree, a hold that tiger has been
issued as the wheels have started to turn backwards and Loran C starts to make
a comeback.
cheers,
skipp
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[paul swed]

Skip
It certainly keeps trying to return. It will not be the navigation system
formerly known as Loran C (Wasn't that also some singer?) it will be
eLoran. Most eLORAN systems add an additional pulse for data. They stick
somewhat to the old format to avoid possible interference with operating
systems in Europe.
But it seems in general LORAN is one big question.
I know we shut down LORAN C to save $36M/year. A drop in the bucket.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 10:56 PM, skipp Isaham via time-nuts 
time-nuts@febo.com wrote:

  Does anyone know of any other genuinely useful purpose to which the
  Austron 2100F, SRS FS700, etc receivers can be put in the US since the
  demise of Loran?

 I've heard Loran C in some form will be returning.  GPS is not jam proof
 and that
 seems to have caught the attention of our government. Although some
 locations
 have already been dismantled to some large degree, a hold that tiger has
 been
 issued as the wheels have started to turn backwards and Loran C starts to
 make
 a comeback.
 cheers,
 skipp
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message 55a4ac81.1030...@rubidium.dyndns.org, Magnus Danielson writes:

The safety is 
relative, in that it takes quite a bit of more infrastructure compared 
to the jamming of GPS, and that lies in the wavelength of the signal 
than anything else.

If the goal is a reliable backup for GPS, there are smarter ways to
use the 100kHz band than Loran-C pulses, and there really isn't much
reason to stay compatible with Loran-C receivers.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[Magnus Danielson]

Poul-Henning,

On 07/14/2015 06:16 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:


In message 55a4ac81.1030...@rubidium.dyndns.org, Magnus Danielson writes:


The safety is
relative, in that it takes quite a bit of more infrastructure compared
to the jamming of GPS, and that lies in the wavelength of the signal
than anything else.


If the goal is a reliable backup for GPS, there are smarter ways to
use the 100kHz band than Loran-C pulses, and there really isn't much
reason to stay compatible with Loran-C receivers.



True. I would look at PRN-codes if I where to do such a system today.
What may be an issue is the amount of sidebands allowed, as it would put 
limits on the chipping-rate of PRN-codes or for that matter other forms 
of modulations.


I think another approach was being considered for the LORAN-rebuild in 
the US. I don't remember from the top of my head when it was discussed 
or link to the article.


Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message 55a53a67.7010...@rubidium.dyndns.org, Magnus Danielson writes:

 If the goal is a reliable backup for GPS, there are smarter ways to
 use the 100kHz band than Loran-C pulses, and there really isn't much
 reason to stay compatible with Loran-C receivers.

True. I would look at PRN-codes if I where to do such a system today.
What may be an issue is the amount of sidebands allowed, as it would put 
limits on the chipping-rate of PRN-codes or for that matter other forms 
of modulations.

I would probably stay with the pulses, they have some very desirable
properties in terms of transmitter and antenna design and bandwidth.

But I would get rid of the current spread-spectrum design and do
something like this:

We pick a basic period as a prime number of microseconds, for
instance 262139µs (just below 2^18) and we define an epoch for this.
This means that all transmitters are autonomous based on a local
TAI reference.

Each transmitter emits an individual PRN-spaced pattern of 32 pulses
in the basic period.  The exact pulse patterns for a transmitter
will be picked based on vectors to neighboring transmitters.

The pulse polarity is plus, minus, data where every 3rd pulse is
used to implement a serial data-channel which communicates
chain-configuration data, TAI/UTC info with some bits left
over for civil defence warnings.

Using one global GRI means that there no longer any chains.
This eliminates a host of failure-modes on the transmitter side and
the receivers will automatically be all-in-view.

With all transmitters autonomous and independent, RAIM is possible.

The basic period is relatively long to attenuate any CW interference
for time/frequency purposes but the higher pulse-per-period count
compensates this for location purposes.

Making the pulse-pattern per transmitter and PRN-like eliminates
all the shadow effects (baseline extension etc) and makes for
quick (re)acquisition based on pattern-matching.

The PRN pattern will also dramatically attenuate the loran-lines
which polluted nearby VLF and LF bands.

The +/-/data pulse polarity makes it possible to detect the start
of the period by tracking where in the potential basic period pulses
do not change polarity:  3 doesn't divide 32, so there is a + - + -
sequence from all transmitters around the start of the period.

But then again, I have spent far more of my life on Loran-C than
can ever be justified :-)

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[paul swed]

Poul-Henning,
The reason to stay with the LORAN C style pulses is very very simple. It
allows our time-nuts Austrons and SRS to work. Its the only way I get any
of my tax dollars back. :-)
The good news is no official government person reads time-nuts.
Regards
Paul


On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 12:16 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dk
wrote:

 
 In message 55a4ac81.1030...@rubidium.dyndns.org, Magnus Danielson
 writes:

 The safety is
 relative, in that it takes quite a bit of more infrastructure compared
 to the jamming of GPS, and that lies in the wavelength of the signal
 than anything else.

 If the goal is a reliable backup for GPS, there are smarter ways to
 use the 100kHz band than Loran-C pulses, and there really isn't much
 reason to stay compatible with Loran-C receivers.

 --
 Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
 FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
 Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[Bob Camp]

Hi

Not to be to much of a downer here but …..

Loran for timing and an “Eastern WWVB” are two projects that seem to each have 
a 
life of their own. They seem to come up on some sort of cycle related to sun 
spots. 
Both have zero (or possibly less than that) percent mind share among those who 
would need to implement them into systems. Since there is major cost on the 
systems
end, it would take “mandatory use” legislation to get them designed in. Without 
those
design in’s, *having* a backup system is pretty useless. You are talking about 
billions of 
dollars and years of effort to hook them up ….

If you are talking about “infinite budget” military systems, some of that may 
happen. I 
notice in the papers that “infinite budget” does not seem to apply to the US 
DOD these 
days. For commercial systems, nobody will significantly cut into profits to do 
something like this. 

Should they do this - sure. Will they do it - nope. 

Bob

 On Jul 14, 2015, at 4:49 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Poul-Henning,
 The reason to stay with the LORAN C style pulses is very very simple. It
 allows our time-nuts Austrons and SRS to work. Its the only way I get any
 of my tax dollars back. :-)
 The good news is no official government person reads time-nuts.
 Regards
 Paul
 
 
 On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 12:16 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dk
 wrote:
 
 
 In message 55a4ac81.1030...@rubidium.dyndns.org, Magnus Danielson
 writes:
 
 The safety is
 relative, in that it takes quite a bit of more infrastructure compared
 to the jamming of GPS, and that lies in the wavelength of the signal
 than anything else.
 
 If the goal is a reliable backup for GPS, there are smarter ways to
 use the 100kHz band than Loran-C pulses, and there really isn't much
 reason to stay compatible with Loran-C receivers.
 
 --
 Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
 FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
 Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message cad2jfah+spv23kgizgmnjdh9ea1wksogn03y0icje2edpzt...@mail.gmail.com
, paul swed writes:

The reason to stay with the LORAN C style pulses is very very simple. It
allows our time-nuts Austrons and SRS to work. Its the only way I get any
of my tax dollars back. :-)

Considering how much better performance you can get with a trivial
ARM CPU on a sub $100 development board, I as a time-nut find that
an incredibly silly argument...


-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[Bob Camp]

Hi

 On Jul 14, 2015, at 12:35 PM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org 
 wrote:
 
 Poul-Henning,
 
 On 07/14/2015 06:16 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
 
 In message 55a4ac81.1030...@rubidium.dyndns.org, Magnus Danielson writes:
 
 The safety is
 relative, in that it takes quite a bit of more infrastructure compared
 to the jamming of GPS, and that lies in the wavelength of the signal
 than anything else.
 
 If the goal is a reliable backup for GPS, there are smarter ways to
 use the 100kHz band than Loran-C pulses, and there really isn't much
 reason to stay compatible with Loran-C receivers.
 
 
 True. I would look at PRN-codes if I where to do such a system today.
 What may be an issue is the amount of sidebands allowed, as it would put 
 limits on the chipping-rate of PRN-codes or for that matter other forms of 
 modulations.

If you look at the spectral width of the existing Loran-C (or similar) 
waveform, it’s a massive thing. You would have a hard time coming up with 
something that spreads
more crud around the VLF range.

Bob

 
 I think another approach was being considered for the LORAN-rebuild in the 
 US. I don't remember from the top of my head when it was discussed or link to 
 the article.
 
 Cheers,
 Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[David McGaw]

The word is that eLoran IS on in the US from Wildwood as of June 19.  
Has anyone noticed the signal?


http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/news/loran-navigation-signal-back-on-and-better-than-before/article_21d19298-16d0-11e5-9a69-1343edc2e90b.html

There is also a bill in the US House to reinstate Loran-C as eLoran.

David N1HAC


On 7/14/15 6:49 PM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

Not to be to much of a downer here but …..

Loran for timing and an “Eastern WWVB” are two projects that seem to each have a
life of their own. They seem to come up on some sort of cycle related to sun 
spots.
Both have zero (or possibly less than that) percent mind share among those who
would need to implement them into systems. Since there is major cost on the 
systems
end, it would take “mandatory use” legislation to get them designed in. Without 
those
design in’s, *having* a backup system is pretty useless. You are talking about 
billions of
dollars and years of effort to hook them up ….

If you are talking about “infinite budget” military systems, some of that may 
happen. I
notice in the papers that “infinite budget” does not seem to apply to the US 
DOD these
days. For commercial systems, nobody will significantly cut into profits to do 
something like this.

Should they do this - sure. Will they do it - nope.

Bob


On Jul 14, 2015, at 4:49 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:

Poul-Henning,
The reason to stay with the LORAN C style pulses is very very simple. It
allows our time-nuts Austrons and SRS to work. Its the only way I get any
of my tax dollars back. :-)
The good news is no official government person reads time-nuts.
Regards
Paul


On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 12:16 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dk
wrote:



In message 55a4ac81.1030...@rubidium.dyndns.org, Magnus Danielson
writes:


The safety is
relative, in that it takes quite a bit of more infrastructure compared
to the jamming of GPS, and that lies in the wavelength of the signal
than anything else.

If the goal is a reliable backup for GPS, there are smarter ways to
use the 100kHz band than Loran-C pulses, and there really isn't much
reason to stay compatible with Loran-C receivers.

--
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[Tim Shoppa]

How much money was saved by not sending NIST time codes over GOES
satellites? I'm sure that was much less than $36M/year to continue,
probably not even 1% of that.

I'm strongly for high diversity in time distribution. GPS is great, but
putting all our eggs in the GPS basket seems very unwise. At the moment I
have GPS, CHU, WWV, and WWVB, but more diversity would be better, and I
hope I can add some variant of LORAN back to the list soon.

Tim N3QE

On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 9:07 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:

 Skip
 It certainly keeps trying to return. It will not be the navigation system
 formerly known as Loran C (Wasn't that also some singer?) it will be
 eLoran. Most eLORAN systems add an additional pulse for data. They stick
 somewhat to the old format to avoid possible interference with operating
 systems in Europe.
 But it seems in general LORAN is one big question.
 I know we shut down LORAN C to save $36M/year. A drop in the bucket.
 Regards
 Paul
 WB8TSL

 On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 10:56 PM, skipp Isaham via time-nuts 
 time-nuts@febo.com wrote:

   Does anyone know of any other genuinely useful purpose to which the
   Austron 2100F, SRS FS700, etc receivers can be put in the US since the
   demise of Loran?
 
  I've heard Loran C in some form will be returning.  GPS is not jam proof
  and that
  seems to have caught the attention of our government. Although some
  locations
  have already been dismantled to some large degree, a hold that tiger
 has
  been
  issued as the wheels have started to turn backwards and Loran C starts to
  make
  a comeback.
  cheers,
  skipp
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[time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[skipp Isaham via time-nuts]

 Does anyone know of any other genuinely useful purpose to which the
 Austron 2100F, SRS FS700, etc receivers can be put in the US since the
 demise of Loran? 

I've heard Loran C in some form will be returning.  GPS is not jam proof and 
that 
seems to have caught the attention of our government. Although some locations 
have already been dismantled to some large degree, a hold that tiger has been 
issued as the wheels have started to turn backwards and Loran C starts to make 
a comeback. 
cheers, 
skipp 
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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN-C reception in the UK

[Magnus Danielson]

It is given somewhat indirectly.
Initially plans was for 200 km.
The final system map had 100 km and 400 km marks.

Read the linked PDF.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 07/12/2015 12:48 AM, Björn wrote:

Did you check the jamming radius?

div Originalmeddelande /divdivFrån: Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org 
/divdivDatum:2015-07-11  18:00  (GMT+01:00) /divdivTill: time-nuts@febo.com /divdivKopia: mag...@rubidium.se 
/divdivRubrik: Re: [time-nuts] LORAN-C reception in the UK /divdiv
/divHi,

On 07/11/2015 03:18 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:


In message CAPbEEQJxn+R5AvCenfyXjFU=WOjFbYxZd2EC_hX=c6muyev...@mail.gmail.com
, ken hartman writes:


the European Radio Navigation Plan having twice been drafted
but never published. The view seems to bee that the introduction of Galileo
will achieve resilient PNT, which it will not.”


The reason the ERNP wasn't published, was that it concluded that 40% of
*all* benefits came from Loran-C, at a yearly cost only a fraction of
a single Galileo launch vehicle.


Someone should have dreamed up the aggregate robustness of eLoran,
GALILEO and EGNOS.

LORAN-C and eLORAN would be an interesting combination to GPS and GALILEO.

Sweden essentially had it's own set of LORAN/Chayka transmitters, with a
ever evolving jamming/spoofing ability. RT-02 Fredriksson was the system
name, often just referred to as Fredriksson.
http://www.antus.org/RT02.html
http://www.fht.nu/fv_bilder_radio_rasandare_rt_02.html
http://www.fht.nu/Dokument/Flygvapnet/flyg_publ_rapport_rt_02.pdf

So much for jamming-resistant.

Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN-C reception in the UK

[Björn]

I think Denmark will also cease operation of their one station in line with 
Norway and France. 

What is the plan for Germany and the UK - not enough stations for a full chain? 
New  controlling station - since Lessay leaves?

--
     Björn

div Originalmeddelande /divdivFrån: ken hartman 
k...@hartmans.org /divdivDatum:2015-07-10  22:46  (GMT+01:00) 
/divdivTill: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com /divdivRubrik: Re: [time-nuts] LORAN-C reception in 
the UK /divdiv
/divfrom:

http://gpsworld.com/eloran-progresses-toward-gps-back-up-role-in-u-s-europe/


“Both Norway and France have declared an intention to cease Loran
transmissions at the end of 2015. Moreover, France intends to dismantle its
Loran infrastructure in 2016. Arrangements for the commercial operation of
the infrastructure are being investigated, but this depends on some form of
regional agreement. The European Union appears to have no policy for
resilient PNT, the European Radio Navigation Plan having twice been drafted
but never published. The view seems to bee that the introduction of Galileo
will achieve resilient PNT, which it will not.”

On Fri, Jul 10, 2015 at 7:14 AM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) 
drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk wrote:

 How good/bad would a LORAN-C frequency reference such as the Stanford
 Research FS700 work in the UK?  I live about 60 km to the east of central
 London.

 Is there any future for LORAN-C in the UK?

 I am looking for a frequency reference that is not GPS - I already have a
 GPS frequency reference but would like to compare it with something
 independent of GPS.  Just having two GPS receivers provides two signals
 which are probably highly correlated.

 Dave.
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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN-C reception in the UK

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message CAPbEEQJxn+R5AvCenfyXjFU=WOjFbYxZd2EC_hX=c6muyev...@mail.gmail.com
, ken hartman writes:

the European Radio Navigation Plan having twice been drafted
but never published. The view seems to bee that the introduction of Galileo
will achieve resilient PNT, which it will not.”

The reason the ERNP wasn't published, was that it concluded that 40% of
*all* benefits came from Loran-C, at a yearly cost only a fraction of
a single Galileo launch vehicle.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN-C reception in the UK

[Iain Young]

On 10/07/15 21:46, ken hartman wrote:

from:

http://gpsworld.com/eloran-progresses-toward-gps-back-up-role-in-u-s-europe/


“Both Norway and France have declared an intention to cease Loran
transmissions at the end of 2015. Moreover, France intends to dismantle its
Loran infrastructure in 2016. Arrangements for the commercial operation of
the infrastructure are being investigated, but this depends on some form of
regional agreement. The European Union appears to have no policy for
resilient PNT, the European Radio Navigation Plan having twice been drafted
but never published. The view seems to bee that the introduction of Galileo
will achieve resilient PNT, which it will not.”


Hmm.I knew about Norway (to be honest, the Noreweigan stations being so 
far away that I can't hear them anyway), but France ceasing

transmissions is new.

That might be interesting with Anthorn currently a slave to Lessay. I
suspec the Arrangements for the commercial operation of the
infrastructure are being investigated means France wants to privatise 
the operations.


Anthorn is already privately operated. Hopefully a deal can be done


Iain


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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN-C reception in the UK

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message 55a13dab.2030...@rubidium.dyndns.org, Magnus Danielson writes:

 The reason the ERNP wasn't published, was that it concluded that 40% of
 *all* benefits came from Loran-C, at a yearly cost only a fraction of
 a single Galileo launch vehicle.

Someone should have dreamed up the aggregate robustness of eLoran, 
GALILEO and EGNOS.

That's exactly what the draft ERNP did.

Then they did the math and figured that with GLONASS and GPS already
being up there, Galileo didn't add nearly as much value as having
an independent robust VLF backup for all the GNSS systems.

Since a result which said that Galileo was surplus to requirements
would have been totally unacceptable, they fudged around a bit.

First they claimed that the enhanced Galileo signals would provide
some value which GPS and GLONASS couldn't provide, but if you read
the fine print in the notes, it basically boiled down to dual-band
precision.

Another fudge was to argue that EU could mandate that ships, planes
and trucks used Galileo, whereas they could not mandate GPS or
GLONASS, so having Galileo potentially improved transporation safety.

If you remove those two fudges, Loran-C provided 60-70% of the
benefit, with the rest split evenly between Galileo and AIS

Sweden essentially had it's own set of LORAN/Chayka transmitters, with a 
ever evolving jamming/spoofing ability. RT-02 Fredriksson was the system 
name, often just referred to as Fredriksson.
http://www.antus.org/RT02.html

Interesting, never heard of that before...


-- 
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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN-C reception in the UK

[Björn]

Did you check the jamming radius? 

div Originalmeddelande /divdivFrån: Magnus Danielson 
mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org /divdivDatum:2015-07-11  18:00  (GMT+01:00) 
/divdivTill: time-nuts@febo.com /divdivKopia: mag...@rubidium.se 
/divdivRubrik: Re: [time-nuts] LORAN-C reception in the UK /divdiv
/divHi,

On 07/11/2015 03:18 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
 
 In message 
 CAPbEEQJxn+R5AvCenfyXjFU=WOjFbYxZd2EC_hX=c6muyev...@mail.gmail.com
 , ken hartman writes:

 the European Radio Navigation Plan having twice been drafted
 but never published. The view seems to bee that the introduction of Galileo
 will achieve resilient PNT, which it will not.”

 The reason the ERNP wasn't published, was that it concluded that 40% of
 *all* benefits came from Loran-C, at a yearly cost only a fraction of
 a single Galileo launch vehicle.

Someone should have dreamed up the aggregate robustness of eLoran, 
GALILEO and EGNOS.

LORAN-C and eLORAN would be an interesting combination to GPS and GALILEO.

Sweden essentially had it's own set of LORAN/Chayka transmitters, with a 
ever evolving jamming/spoofing ability. RT-02 Fredriksson was the system 
name, often just referred to as Fredriksson.
http://www.antus.org/RT02.html
http://www.fht.nu/fv_bilder_radio_rasandare_rt_02.html
http://www.fht.nu/Dokument/Flygvapnet/flyg_publ_rapport_rt_02.pdf

So much for jamming-resistant.

Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN-C reception in the UK

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi,

On 07/11/2015 03:18 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:


In message CAPbEEQJxn+R5AvCenfyXjFU=WOjFbYxZd2EC_hX=c6muyev...@mail.gmail.com
, ken hartman writes:


the European Radio Navigation Plan having twice been drafted
but never published. The view seems to bee that the introduction of Galileo
will achieve resilient PNT, which it will not.”


The reason the ERNP wasn't published, was that it concluded that 40% of
*all* benefits came from Loran-C, at a yearly cost only a fraction of
a single Galileo launch vehicle.


Someone should have dreamed up the aggregate robustness of eLoran, 
GALILEO and EGNOS.


LORAN-C and eLORAN would be an interesting combination to GPS and GALILEO.

Sweden essentially had it's own set of LORAN/Chayka transmitters, with a 
ever evolving jamming/spoofing ability. RT-02 Fredriksson was the system 
name, often just referred to as Fredriksson.

http://www.antus.org/RT02.html
http://www.fht.nu/fv_bilder_radio_rasandare_rt_02.html
http://www.fht.nu/Dokument/Flygvapnet/flyg_publ_rapport_rt_02.pdf

So much for jamming-resistant.

Cheers,
Magnus
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[time-nuts] LORAN-C reception in the UK

[Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd)]

How good/bad would a LORAN-C frequency reference such as the Stanford
Research FS700 work in the UK?  I live about 60 km to the east of central
London.

Is there any future for LORAN-C in the UK?

I am looking for a frequency reference that is not GPS - I already have a
GPS frequency reference but would like to compare it with something
independent of GPS.  Just having two GPS receivers provides two signals
which are probably highly correlated.

Dave.
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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN-C reception in the UK

[Alan Melia]

Dave check with the Triniity House web site they are the sponsors of the 
Anthorn slave site, the master station is at Lessay on the St. Malo 
penninsular so should be strong. There is (or was) a full descrition of the 
option to GPSon the website.  I believe there should be at least 5 years 
to run on the original 10 year contract. The transmission is eLoran, at bit 
like Loran-C with a DGPS. I think there is an extra pulse in the train, I 
dont think this will affect the receiver you quote. The 100kHz signal should 
be OK in daytime may will suffer some phase shifts at night at more extreme 
range. This should not be a problem at your range from Lessay.


Alan
G3NYK

- Original Message - 
From: Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) 
drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Friday, July 10, 2015 1:14 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] LORAN-C reception in the UK



How good/bad would a LORAN-C frequency reference such as the Stanford
Research FS700 work in the UK?  I live about 60 km to the east of central
London.

Is there any future for LORAN-C in the UK?

I am looking for a frequency reference that is not GPS - I already have a
GPS frequency reference but would like to compare it with something
independent of GPS.  Just having two GPS receivers provides two signals
which are probably highly correlated.

Dave.
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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN-C reception in the UK

[Iain Young]

Hi David

On 10/07/15 13:14, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) wrote:


How good/bad would a LORAN-C frequency reference such as the Stanford
Research FS700 work in the UK?  I live about 60 km to the east of central
London.


My Austron 2100's lock on to Anthorn, Lessay, and Sylt. I'm in Coventry,
about ~330km away from both Anthorn and Lessay



Is there any future for LORAN-C in the UK?


Don't think it's going away.

The UK is rolling out eLORAN,  which I thought is backwards
compatible with LORAN-C (I believe it uses the 9th pulse for data)

What I'm having trouble finding is any references to GRI's for
eLORAN - and I'm sure I saw one reference say that it didn't need
them, so I'm not sure on it's timing use, or the ability to sync
with UTC due to ToC

Others, better versed than I might have more info.


Iain

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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN-C reception in the UK

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message CANX10hBNdx82BawbHJ-DqbReEb3HH=rc2h4VckHx0Etfb=4...@mail.gmail.com
, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) writes:

How good/bad would a LORAN-C frequency reference such as the Stanford
Research FS700 work in the UK?  I live about 60 km to the east of central
London.

It should work OK.

Is there any future for LORAN-C in the UK?

I belive signals are currently assured until 2019.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN-C reception in the UK

[Wojciech Owczarek]

Dave,

I'm afraid I can't give you a quantitative answer about LORAN-C, but I can
say that eLORAN is your friend. It has recently been revived in the US and
it's doing all right in Europe, UK included. The promise in general is 50
ns to UTC. UrsaNav make some receivers and Chronos (who are a big eLoran
advocate) distribute them in the UK, along with their own product.

I take it you don't already have the FS700? In that case I think it's
definitely worth looking at eLORAN. Again, note that I'm also not using
eLORAN at the moment, but I'm looking at it very closely as a GNSS
alternative.

Cheers,
Wojciech


-- 
-

Wojciech Owczarek
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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN-C reception in the UK

[Bob Camp]

Hi

Loran should work fine in the UK as long as the European chains stay up and 
running. They
don’t seem to be at any risk of shutting down at the moment.

Bob

 On Jul 10, 2015, at 8:14 AM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) 
 drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk wrote:
 
 How good/bad would a LORAN-C frequency reference such as the Stanford
 Research FS700 work in the UK?  I live about 60 km to the east of central
 London.
 
 Is there any future for LORAN-C in the UK?
 
 I am looking for a frequency reference that is not GPS - I already have a
 GPS frequency reference but would like to compare it with something
 independent of GPS.  Just having two GPS receivers provides two signals
 which are probably highly correlated.
 
 Dave.
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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN-C reception in the UK

[Brooke Clarke]

Hi Dave:

The quality of the signal goes down with distance from the transmitter.  If you get a sledgehammer sounding signal then 
you'll get a good time fix, but if you can barely hear the signal then the quality will be poor.  Middletown, California 
to Ukiah, California is strong, but any other station was weak.


http://www.prc68.com/I/Loran-c.shtml
Mail_Attachment
--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
http://www.prc68.com/I/DietNutrition.html
Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) wrote:

How good/bad would a LORAN-C frequency reference such as the Stanford
Research FS700 work in the UK?  I live about 60 km to the east of central
London.

Is there any future for LORAN-C in the UK?

I am looking for a frequency reference that is not GPS - I already have a
GPS frequency reference but would like to compare it with something
independent of GPS.  Just having two GPS receivers provides two signals
which are probably highly correlated.

Dave.
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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN-C reception in the UK

[ken hartman]

from:

http://gpsworld.com/eloran-progresses-toward-gps-back-up-role-in-u-s-europe/


“Both Norway and France have declared an intention to cease Loran
transmissions at the end of 2015. Moreover, France intends to dismantle its
Loran infrastructure in 2016. Arrangements for the commercial operation of
the infrastructure are being investigated, but this depends on some form of
regional agreement. The European Union appears to have no policy for
resilient PNT, the European Radio Navigation Plan having twice been drafted
but never published. The view seems to bee that the introduction of Galileo
will achieve resilient PNT, which it will not.”

On Fri, Jul 10, 2015 at 7:14 AM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) 
drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk wrote:

 How good/bad would a LORAN-C frequency reference such as the Stanford
 Research FS700 work in the UK?  I live about 60 km to the east of central
 London.

 Is there any future for LORAN-C in the UK?

 I am looking for a frequency reference that is not GPS - I already have a
 GPS frequency reference but would like to compare it with something
 independent of GPS.  Just having two GPS receivers provides two signals
 which are probably highly correlated.

 Dave.
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[time-nuts] LORAN C 89700 on the air starting Monday

[paul swed]

Wildwood will be on air from approximately 1400 on 02 March until 1400 on 04
March
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C 89700 on the air starting Monday

[J. Forster]

Paul,

Do you know if this is a prelude to continuous service?

-John

===


 Wildwood will be on air from approximately 1400 on 02 March until 1400 on
 04
 March
 Regards
 Paul
 WB8TSL
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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C 89700 on the air starting Monday

[Bill Riches]

Hi Paul,

Is that EST or GMT time?

73,

Bill, WA2DVU
Cape May, NJ ( 10 miles from Wildwood!)

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of paul swed
Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 12:18 PM
To: Time-nuts
Subject: [time-nuts] LORAN C 89700 on the air starting Monday

Wildwood will be on air from approximately 1400 on 02 March until 1400 on 04
March Regards Paul WB8TSL ___
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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C 89700 on the air starting Monday

[paul swed]

Doubt its continuous and no idea utc or local but may guess its local. If
UTC would be 0900 and thats about work time.
But you have all of the info I have.
Regards
Paul


On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 1:00 PM, Bill Riches bill.ric...@verizon.net wrote:

 Hi Paul,

 Is that EST or GMT time?

 73,

 Bill, WA2DVU
 Cape May, NJ ( 10 miles from Wildwood!)

 -Original Message-
 From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
 Behalf Of paul swed
 Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 12:18 PM
 To: Time-nuts
 Subject: [time-nuts] LORAN C 89700 on the air starting Monday

 Wildwood will be on air from approximately 1400 on 02 March until 1400 on
 04
 March Regards Paul WB8TSL ___
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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C 89700 on the air starting Monday

[Eric Garner]

Paul,

Where are you finding this information?

-eric


On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 11:08 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:

 Doubt its continuous and no idea utc or local but may guess its local. If
 UTC would be 0900 and thats about work time.
 But you have all of the info I have.
 Regards
 Paul


 On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 1:00 PM, Bill Riches bill.ric...@verizon.net
 wrote:

  Hi Paul,
 
  Is that EST or GMT time?
 
  73,
 
  Bill, WA2DVU
  Cape May, NJ ( 10 miles from Wildwood!)
 
  -Original Message-
  From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
  Behalf Of paul swed
  Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 12:18 PM
  To: Time-nuts
  Subject: [time-nuts] LORAN C 89700 on the air starting Monday
 
  Wildwood will be on air from approximately 1400 on 02 March until 1400 on
  04
  March Regards Paul WB8TSL ___
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-- 
--Eric
_
Eric Garner
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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C 89700 on the air starting Monday

[paul swed]

Contact Steve and he will add you to the email. It took a month or so.
stephen.bartl...@ursanav.com

Regards
Paul.


On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 2:26 PM, Eric Garner garn...@gmail.com wrote:

 Paul,

 Where are you finding this information?

 -eric


 On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 11:08 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:

  Doubt its continuous and no idea utc or local but may guess its local. If
  UTC would be 0900 and thats about work time.
  But you have all of the info I have.
  Regards
  Paul
 
 
  On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 1:00 PM, Bill Riches bill.ric...@verizon.net
  wrote:
 
   Hi Paul,
  
   Is that EST or GMT time?
  
   73,
  
   Bill, WA2DVU
   Cape May, NJ ( 10 miles from Wildwood!)
  
   -Original Message-
   From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com]
 On
   Behalf Of paul swed
   Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 12:18 PM
   To: Time-nuts
   Subject: [time-nuts] LORAN C 89700 on the air starting Monday
  
   Wildwood will be on air from approximately 1400 on 02 March until 1400
 on
   04
   March Regards Paul WB8TSL
 ___
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 --
 --Eric
 _
 Eric Garner
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[time-nuts] LORAN-C Boat-Anchor

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

I noticed an interesting Loran-C boat-anchor on eBay:


http://www.ebay.com/itm/RAYTHEON-RAYNAV-6000-LORAN-C-/230577121042?pt=Boat_Parts_Accessories_Gearhash=item35af77a712vxp=mtr

It looks clearly similar to the Micrologic ML 200 I have, but I
think this is a later revision.

The ML 200 I have is based on the Intel 4004 - the worlds first
microprocessor, but  I have no idea what's inside the one on eBay.

Interestingly, the ML 200 can lock on the 4-digit european GRIs
but it is not much actual use to a timenut, it is mostly a
boat-anchor...

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C radio navigation

[Ulrich Bangert]

Hi Matthias,

what kind of beta testing other than just receiving a LORAN signal do you
need? I live near Bremen and I can receive the Loran signal from the Sylt
chain pretty well. My Stanford Research FS700 and my Symmetricon Z3805 run
24/7/365 and I am well equipped with measurement stuff.

Best regards

Ulrich Bangert
Ortholzer Weg 1
27243 Gross Ippener
Tel 04224 95071
Fax 04224 95072
Mob 0172 800 6546
df...@ulrich-bangert.de

 -Ursprungliche Nachricht-
 Von: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com 
 [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] Im Auftrag von Matthias Koch
 Gesendet: Montag, 13. Januar 2014 17:12
 An: time-nuts@febo.com
 Betreff: [!! SPAM] [time-nuts] Loran-C radio navigation
 
 
 Dear timing geeks and frequency wizards,
 
 I wish to announce a software defined Loran-C longwave radio 
 navigation receiver running on STM32F407 ! If you happen to 
 live somewhere on earth with Loran-C signal coverage like 
 Europe and parts of Asia, I would like to get in contact with 
 you for beta testing out in the wild.
 
 The first experimental release is available now on download 
 section on http://mecrisp.sourceforge.net/ 
 
 I have been invited to this list by a discussion on 
 http://forum.stellarisiti.com/topic/1807-loran-c-radio-navigation/
 
 Best wishes from Germany,
 Matthias Koch
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C radio navigation

[Robert Watson]

Matthias,

I am based near Bristol in the South West of the UK. I can receive Anthorn
in the UK and several of the French chain of transmitters - I have a
prototype UrsaNav Loran receiver. Have a reasonably equipped lab for
timing; GPS disciplined SRS FS725 rubidium and an Agilent 53230A TIC. Let
me know if I can help,

Regards,

Robert.


On 13 January 2014 16:11, Matthias Koch
matthias.k...@hot.uni-hannover.dewrote:

 Dear timing geeks and frequency wizards,

 I wish to announce a software defined Loran-C longwave radio navigation
 receiver running on STM32F407 ! If you happen to live somewhere on earth
 with Loran-C signal coverage like Europe and parts of Asia, I would like to
 get in contact with you for beta testing out in the wild.

 The first experimental release is available now on download section on
 http://mecrisp.sourceforge.net/
 I have been invited to this list by a discussion on
 http://forum.stellarisiti.com/topic/1807-loran-c-radio-navigation/

 Best wishes from Germany,
 Matthias Koch
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C radio navigation

[Matthias Koch]

Dear Paul,

thank you ! Instructions are included in the source package, you will need a 
signal of about 1.5V DC and 0.5V amplitude. The analog-digital converters are 
single ended and accept voltage levels between GND and Vcc which is about 3V.

You can enjoy my native code Forth compiler on the MSP430 Launchpads, too, and 
try Ledcomm, but for Loran-C you need a STM32F407 Discovery board which has 
enough RAM for circular GRI buffer.

I would be glad if you could sample signals with your Loran-C simulator to 
check if it is running fine.

Matthias

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Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C radio navigation

[paul swed]

Mathias OK I see that I need a different board then.
Let me take a look. I think thats the $12 board


On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 6:14 AM, Matthias Koch 
matthias.k...@hot.uni-hannover.de wrote:

 Dear Paul,

 thank you ! Instructions are included in the source package, you will need
 a signal of about 1.5V DC and 0.5V amplitude. The analog-digital converters
 are single ended and accept voltage levels between GND and Vcc which is
 about 3V.

 You can enjoy my native code Forth compiler on the MSP430 Launchpads, too,
 and try Ledcomm, but for Loran-C you need a STM32F407 Discovery board which
 has enough RAM for circular GRI buffer.

 I would be glad if you could sample signals with your Loran-C simulator to
 check if it is running fine.

 Matthias


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Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C radio navigation

[paul swed]

I see it in the US its 14.88. Not bad at all.
But needing a 1/2 V signal is indeed a huge challenge over here.
It requires gain stages and filters and the curse of feedback.
But as you say the simulator makes that far less of an issue. :-)
Regards
Paul


On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 2:23 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:

 Mathias OK I see that I need a different board then.
 Let me take a look. I think thats the $12 board


 On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 6:14 AM, Matthias Koch 
 matthias.k...@hot.uni-hannover.de wrote:

 Dear Paul,

 thank you ! Instructions are included in the source package, you will
 need a signal of about 1.5V DC and 0.5V amplitude. The analog-digital
 converters are single ended and accept voltage levels between GND and Vcc
 which is about 3V.

 You can enjoy my native code Forth compiler on the MSP430 Launchpads,
 too, and try Ledcomm, but for Loran-C you need a STM32F407 Discovery board
 which has enough RAM for circular GRI buffer.

 I would be glad if you could sample signals with your Loran-C simulator
 to check if it is running fine.

 Matthias


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Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C radio navigation

[paul swed]

Just ordered the STM discovery kit. Will take about 1 week.


On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 2:28 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:

 I see it in the US its 14.88. Not bad at all.
 But needing a 1/2 V signal is indeed a huge challenge over here.
 It requires gain stages and filters and the curse of feedback.
 But as you say the simulator makes that far less of an issue. :-)
 Regards
 Paul


 On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 2:23 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:

 Mathias OK I see that I need a different board then.
 Let me take a look. I think thats the $12 board


 On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 6:14 AM, Matthias Koch 
 matthias.k...@hot.uni-hannover.de wrote:

 Dear Paul,

 thank you ! Instructions are included in the source package, you will
 need a signal of about 1.5V DC and 0.5V amplitude. The analog-digital
 converters are single ended and accept voltage levels between GND and Vcc
 which is about 3V.

 You can enjoy my native code Forth compiler on the MSP430 Launchpads,
 too, and try Ledcomm, but for Loran-C you need a STM32F407 Discovery board
 which has enough RAM for circular GRI buffer.

 I would be glad if you could sample signals with your Loran-C simulator
 to check if it is running fine.

 Matthias


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[time-nuts] Loran-C radio navigation

[Matthias Koch]

Dear timing geeks and frequency wizards,

I wish to announce a software defined Loran-C longwave radio navigation 
receiver running on STM32F407 ! If you happen to live somewhere on earth with 
Loran-C signal coverage like Europe and parts of Asia, I would like to get in 
contact with you for beta testing out in the wild.

The first experimental release is available now on download section on http://mecrisp.sourceforge.net/ 


I have been invited to this list by a discussion on 
http://forum.stellarisiti.com/topic/1807-loran-c-radio-navigation/

Best wishes from Germany,
Matthias Koch
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C radio navigation

[paul swed]

Matthias
I live in the US on the east coast and do on occasion receive LORAN C from
Europe. But we have a new LORAN occasionally here that behaves much as the
old did though its for time and frequency only.

Further sitting next to me are 3 X launchpads MSP430s that were so
inexpensive I could not resist picking them up. Though didn't do a thing
with them. Time in the day issue.

Finally you wrote your program in Forth. Always liked Forth allot.

So all of that said are there instructions for loading it onto the
launchpad?
Whats required on the frontend from the antenna to the port?
I also have a real LORAN C simulator and also a test set.

Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
.


On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 11:11 AM, Matthias Koch 
matthias.k...@hot.uni-hannover.de wrote:

 Dear timing geeks and frequency wizards,

 I wish to announce a software defined Loran-C longwave radio navigation
 receiver running on STM32F407 ! If you happen to live somewhere on earth
 with Loran-C signal coverage like Europe and parts of Asia, I would like to
 get in contact with you for beta testing out in the wild.

 The first experimental release is available now on download section on
 http://mecrisp.sourceforge.net/
 I have been invited to this list by a discussion on
 http://forum.stellarisiti.com/topic/1807-loran-c-radio-navigation/

 Best wishes from Germany,
 Matthias Koch
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C radio navigation

[paul swed]

OK I downloaded the gz file and see additional information.
Thanks


On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 3:50 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:

 Matthias
 I live in the US on the east coast and do on occasion receive LORAN C from
 Europe. But we have a new LORAN occasionally here that behaves much as the
 old did though its for time and frequency only.

 Further sitting next to me are 3 X launchpads MSP430s that were so
 inexpensive I could not resist picking them up. Though didn't do a thing
 with them. Time in the day issue.

 Finally you wrote your program in Forth. Always liked Forth allot.

 So all of that said are there instructions for loading it onto the
 launchpad?
 Whats required on the frontend from the antenna to the port?
 I also have a real LORAN C simulator and also a test set.

 Regards
 Paul
 WB8TSL
 .


 On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 11:11 AM, Matthias Koch 
 matthias.k...@hot.uni-hannover.de wrote:

 Dear timing geeks and frequency wizards,

 I wish to announce a software defined Loran-C longwave radio navigation
 receiver running on STM32F407 ! If you happen to live somewhere on earth
 with Loran-C signal coverage like Europe and parts of Asia, I would like to
 get in contact with you for beta testing out in the wild.

 The first experimental release is available now on download section on
 http://mecrisp.sourceforge.net/
 I have been invited to this list by a discussion on
 http://forum.stellarisiti.com/topic/1807-loran-c-radio-navigation/

 Best wishes from Germany,
 Matthias Koch
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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C still on the air 24 hours SRS 700 looking good

[Scott Harris]

Yeah, I don't have the antenna for the SRS 700, so I'm going to have to build 
something. Just looking for a probability of success before I decide to give it 
a try.
-Scott
On Mar 20, 2013, at 9:58 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:

 Boy I am going to guess less effectively then I hear wwvb here on the east
 coast Boston. But as Stan says. Give it a try can't hurt also try at night
 the propagation is different. Though best results are a day path.
 By the way on the ole wwvb I use a 10' square loop 800' of low cap wire
 preamp etc.
 Nothing says you couldn't build the same for CO. Broaden it a bit.
 Regards
 Paul
 WB8TSL
 
 On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 8:24 AM, Stan, W1LE stanw...@verizon.net wrote:
 
 Hello Scott,
 
 Fire it up and set it to a GRI of 89700 and give it a listen.
 
 Stan W1LE   Cape Cod
 
 
 
 
 On 3/20/2013 1:07 AM, Scott Harris wrote:
 
 I've got an SRS 700 and I live in CO. Any chance I can pick up the new
 LORAN signals?
 
 Thanks,
 -Scott
 On Mar 19, 2013, at 9:33 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:
 
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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C still on the air 24 hours SRS 700 looking good

[paul swed]

There isn't anyone who can give you that. Lots of variables. Now since you
are in Co maybe you live on a 1000 acre ranch so no other noise sources
around you. But just suppose you lived in a typical RF nasty subdivision.
Well your noise floors going to be much worse and I mean by an order or two
of junk.
I do indeed rcv LORAN C on occasion from Europe with a typical boat preamp
and stick antenna. That is over water but about the same distance.

So that said
I did build a 10' square loop for WWVB and that system improved my
reception greatly.
Day 20uv to 80-100 Night 400-600uv.
Possibilities
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 1:34 PM, Scott Harris scottrhar...@gmail.comwrote:

 Yeah, I don't have the antenna for the SRS 700, so I'm going to have to
 build something. Just looking for a probability of success before I decide
 to give it a try.
 -Scott
 On Mar 20, 2013, at 9:58 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:

  Boy I am going to guess less effectively then I hear wwvb here on the
 east
  coast Boston. But as Stan says. Give it a try can't hurt also try at
 night
  the propagation is different. Though best results are a day path.
  By the way on the ole wwvb I use a 10' square loop 800' of low cap wire
  preamp etc.
  Nothing says you couldn't build the same for CO. Broaden it a bit.
  Regards
  Paul
  WB8TSL
 
  On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 8:24 AM, Stan, W1LE stanw...@verizon.net
 wrote:
 
  Hello Scott,
 
  Fire it up and set it to a GRI of 89700 and give it a listen.
 
  Stan W1LE   Cape Cod
 
 
 
 
  On 3/20/2013 1:07 AM, Scott Harris wrote:
 
  I've got an SRS 700 and I live in CO. Any chance I can pick up the
 new
  LORAN signals?
 
  Thanks,
  -Scott
  On Mar 19, 2013, at 9:33 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:
 
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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C still on the air 24 hours SRS 700 looking good

[Stan, W1LE]

Hello Scott,

Fire it up and set it to a GRI of 89700 and give it a listen.

Stan W1LE   Cape Cod



On 3/20/2013 1:07 AM, Scott Harris wrote:

I've got an SRS 700 and I live in CO. Any chance I can pick up the new LORAN 
signals?

Thanks,
-Scott
On Mar 19, 2013, at 9:33 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:


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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C still on the air 24 hours SRS 700 looking good

[paul swed]

Boy I am going to guess less effectively then I hear wwvb here on the east
coast Boston. But as Stan says. Give it a try can't hurt also try at night
the propagation is different. Though best results are a day path.
By the way on the ole wwvb I use a 10' square loop 800' of low cap wire
preamp etc.
Nothing says you couldn't build the same for CO. Broaden it a bit.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 8:24 AM, Stan, W1LE stanw...@verizon.net wrote:

 Hello Scott,

 Fire it up and set it to a GRI of 89700 and give it a listen.

 Stan W1LE   Cape Cod




 On 3/20/2013 1:07 AM, Scott Harris wrote:

 I've got an SRS 700 and I live in CO. Any chance I can pick up the new
 LORAN signals?

 Thanks,
 -Scott
 On Mar 19, 2013, at 9:33 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:

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[time-nuts] LORAN C still on the air 24 hours SRS 700 looking good

[paul swed]

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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C still on the air 24 hours SRS 700 looking good

[Peter Gottlieb]

I don't have a Loran receiver but last night in the Boston area I definitely was 
able to pick up a strong Loran signal.


Peter

On 3/19/2013 11:33 AM, paul swed wrote:

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Version: 10.0.1430 / Virus Database: 2641/5688 - Release Date: 03/19/13




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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C still on the air 24 hours SRS 700 looking good

[paul swed]

Peter you are in boston, I am in franklin. We must be 25-30 miles apart
Regards
Paul

On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 11:40 AM, Peter Gottlieb n...@verizon.net wrote:

 I don't have a Loran receiver but last night in the Boston area I
 definitely was able to pick up a strong Loran signal.

 Peter

 On 3/19/2013 11:33 AM, paul swed wrote:

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 No virus found in this message.
 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
 Version: 10.0.1430 / Virus Database: 2641/5688 - Release Date: 03/19/13



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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C still on the air 24 hours SRS 700 looking good

[David I. Emery]

On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 01:29:44PM -0400, paul swed wrote:
 Peter you are in boston, I am in franklin. We must be 25-30 miles apart
 Regards
 Paul

Peter lives about 3 miles from my house in Weston... in
a corner of Natick abutting Weston.   So three of us are quite close.
John Forster lives in Belmont (or did)... which is also pretty close.

-- 
  Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, d...@dieconsulting.com  DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass 
02493
An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten
'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole - in 
celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now either.

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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C still on the air 24 hours SRS 700 looking good

[paul swed]

So Boston reclaims the technology capital of the world with all of the
time-nuttery folks around here. And to think people believe its silicon
valley.
I know John and I get to the MIT flea and perhaps its one of you two that I
have seen walking off with the widget I was looking for and missed out on
by a few minutes. :-)
Regards
Paul.

On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 2:03 PM, David I. Emery d...@dieconsulting.comwrote:

 On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 01:29:44PM -0400, paul swed wrote:
  Peter you are in boston, I am in franklin. We must be 25-30 miles apart
  Regards
  Paul

 Peter lives about 3 miles from my house in Weston... in
 a corner of Natick abutting Weston.   So three of us are quite close.
 John Forster lives in Belmont (or did)... which is also pretty close.

 --
   Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, d...@dieconsulting.com  DIE Consulting, Weston,
 Mass 02493
 An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten
 'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole -
 in
 celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now
 either.

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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C still on the air 24 hours SRS 700 looking good

[Peter Gottlieb]

We should get together, especially since I was laid off a couple of weeks ago 
(after the place I worked went Ch 11 and was bought by the Chinese) and have 
some free time.


Peter

On 3/19/2013 2:03 PM, David I. Emery wrote:

On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 01:29:44PM -0400, paul swed wrote:

Peter you are in boston, I am in franklin. We must be 25-30 miles apart
Regards
Paul

Peter lives about 3 miles from my house in Weston... in
a corner of Natick abutting Weston.   So three of us are quite close.
John Forster lives in Belmont (or did)... which is also pretty close.



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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C still on the air 24 hours SRS 700 looking good

[Peter Gottlieb]

Well if it ever stops snowing I plan on hitting the MIT fleas (and NEARfest) 
again this year!


Peter


On 3/19/2013 2:45 PM, paul swed wrote:

So Boston reclaims the technology capital of the world with all of the
time-nuttery folks around here. And to think people believe its silicon
valley.
I know John and I get to the MIT flea and perhaps its one of you two that I
have seen walking off with the widget I was looking for and missed out on
by a few minutes. :-)
Regards
Paul.

On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 2:03 PM, David I. Emery d...@dieconsulting.comwrote:


On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 01:29:44PM -0400, paul swed wrote:

Peter you are in boston, I am in franklin. We must be 25-30 miles apart
Regards
Paul

 Peter lives about 3 miles from my house in Weston... in
a corner of Natick abutting Weston.   So three of us are quite close.
John Forster lives in Belmont (or did)... which is also pretty close.

--
   Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, d...@dieconsulting.com  DIE Consulting, Weston,
Mass 02493
An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten
'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole -
in
celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now
either.

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Version: 10.0.1430 / Virus Database: 2641/5688 - Release Date: 03/19/13




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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C still on the air 24 hours SRS 700 looking good

[Stan, W1LE]

Just got in.  LORAN C had been locked since Paul mentioned the signal.

So far it is comparing to my T'Bolt GPS/DO to 8E-13.

Stan, W1LE   Cape Cod
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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C still on the air 24 hours SRS 700 looking good

[Scott Harris]

I've got an SRS 700 and I live in CO. Any chance I can pick up the new LORAN 
signals?

Thanks,
-Scott
On Mar 19, 2013, at 9:33 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:

 
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[time-nuts] LORAN C is on the air as of 0900 EST Monday

[paul swed]

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[time-nuts] LORAN C Antenna...

[Burt I. Weiner]

Those are the counterpoise for the antenna and increases the 
efficiency of the antenna.


Burt, K6OQK

At 08:33 AM 8/23/2012, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote


 What are those rays spreading from the tower base? Are they the artificial
 ground plane made by wires?

 On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 3:15 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:

  Great pix.
  Thanks. My tower isn't quite that large. Look at the cables!
  Regards
  Paul
  WB8TSL
 
  On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 8:01 PM, Michael Blazer mbla...@satx.rr.com
  wrote:
 
   Wow, what a view.  How does the advice go, Don't look down?
  
  
   On 8/22/2012 9:22 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
  
   http://www.jan-mayen.no/
  
   press news
  
   Look for 21. august.
  
   The last picture is particularly interesting:
  
   http://www.jan-mayen.no/nyhet/**2012/08_august/C-%20mast/C-**
   mast%208b.JPG
http://www.jan-mayen.no/nyhet/2012/08_august/C-%20mast/C-mast%208b.JPG


Burt I. Weiner Associates
Broadcast Technical Services
Glendale, California  U.S.A.
b...@att.net
www.biwa.cc
K6OQK 



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[time-nuts] LORAN-C

[Stan, W1LE]

Hello The Net:

LORAN signals are still being received at a 89700 microsecond GRI.
I concur with others that there is only one station transmitting the 
master(M) and the slave(X) signals.

My SRS FS-700 Rx shows equal received signal strength for both signals.
Reports indicate the transmitter is at the old Coast Guard LORAN 
engineering site at Wildwood NJ.


Since I turned the equipment on last Sunday night, I have had continuous 
lock on the

FS-700, Austron 2100, and a 2100F.

Compared to the GPS/DO 10 MHz from the T'Bolt, I am getting accuracies 
to the mid -13s,

as indicated on the FS-700 phase meter.

Next step is to lock up the signal on an oscope, triggered by an 
accurate 11.148272 KHz signal

( reciprocal of 89700microsec).
That way I should be able to see the pulses and the E-LORAN experimentation.

My set up at home uses a 40' high delta loop antenna, 2 orthogonal loops 
terminated on the top with a
600 ohm resistor, a ARR preamplifier with battery at the antenna , a RG6 
coax run to the shack,

Astron 2084 multicoupler, then the receivers.

Stan, W1LE  Cape Cod FN41sr




z


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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN-C

[J. Forster]

Antenna envy!

-John

=



 Hello The Net:

 LORAN signals are still being received at a 89700 microsecond GRI.
 I concur with others that there is only one station transmitting the
 master(M) and the slave(X) signals.
 My SRS FS-700 Rx shows equal received signal strength for both signals.
 Reports indicate the transmitter is at the old Coast Guard LORAN
 engineering site at Wildwood NJ.

 Since I turned the equipment on last Sunday night, I have had continuous
 lock on the
 FS-700, Austron 2100, and a 2100F.

 Compared to the GPS/DO 10 MHz from the T'Bolt, I am getting accuracies
 to the mid -13s,
 as indicated on the FS-700 phase meter.

 Next step is to lock up the signal on an oscope, triggered by an
 accurate 11.148272 KHz signal
 ( reciprocal of 89700microsec).
 That way I should be able to see the pulses and the E-LORAN
 experimentation.

 My set up at home uses a 40' high delta loop antenna, 2 orthogonal loops
 terminated on the top with a
 600 ohm resistor, a ARR preamplifier with battery at the antenna , a RG6
 coax run to the shack,
 Astron 2084 multicoupler, then the receivers.

 Stan, W1LE  Cape Cod FN41sr




 z


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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN-C

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message 1158.12.6.201.135.1335885236.squir...@popaccts.quikus.com, J. For
ster writes:

 Next step is to lock up the signal on an oscope, triggered by an
 accurate 11.148272 KHz signal ( reciprocal of 89700microsec).

A HP5359A is great trigger-source for that.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN-C

[Rob Kimberley]

I should say so!!
Rob

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of J. Forster
Sent: 01 May 2012 16:14
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] LORAN-C

Antenna envy!

-John

=



 Hello The Net:

 LORAN signals are still being received at a 89700 microsecond GRI.
 I concur with others that there is only one station transmitting the
 master(M) and the slave(X) signals.
 My SRS FS-700 Rx shows equal received signal strength for both signals.
 Reports indicate the transmitter is at the old Coast Guard LORAN 
 engineering site at Wildwood NJ.

 Since I turned the equipment on last Sunday night, I have had 
 continuous lock on the FS-700, Austron 2100, and a 2100F.

 Compared to the GPS/DO 10 MHz from the T'Bolt, I am getting accuracies 
 to the mid -13s, as indicated on the FS-700 phase meter.

 Next step is to lock up the signal on an oscope, triggered by an 
 accurate 11.148272 KHz signal ( reciprocal of 89700microsec).
 That way I should be able to see the pulses and the E-LORAN 
 experimentation.

 My set up at home uses a 40' high delta loop antenna, 2 orthogonal 
 loops terminated on the top with a
 600 ohm resistor, a ARR preamplifier with battery at the antenna , a 
 RG6 coax run to the shack, Astron 2084 multicoupler, then the 
 receivers.

 Stan, W1LE  Cape Cod FN41sr




 z


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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN-C

[Stan, W1LE]

Hello PHK,

I will use a HP-3336C with the station 10 MHz (GPS/DO) reference.

Typo:  trigger should really be 11.148272 Hz instead of KHz !

Stan, W1LE


On 5/1/2012 11:27 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:

In message1158.12.6.201.135.1335885236.squir...@popaccts.quikus.com, J. For
ster writes:


Next step is to lock up the signal on an oscope, triggered by an
accurate 11.148272 KHz signal ( reciprocal of 89700microsec).

A HP5359A is great trigger-source for that.




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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN-C

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message 4fa006e8.5040...@verizon.net, Stan, W1LE writes:

I will use a HP-3336C with the station 10 MHz (GPS/DO) reference.

Typo:  trigger should really be 11.148272 Hz instead of KHz !

You need a really amazing stable and noise-free trigger to lock
onto a 5.5Hz (see below) sine at the required level of stability
(~2usec).

I used my HP33120A once, but its square output is made with a
comparator on the sine wave, and has pretty bad jitter.
Switching to saw-tooth solved that, defining my own arbitrary
square-wave was even better, not sure why.

You want 1/(2*.089700) = 5.574136 Hz, otherwise every other
loran-c pulse will cancel out due to the A/B coding polarity.

If you don't have a counter-based signal generator, consider stealing
a GRI or FRI-rate signal from one of your loran-C receivers, I belive
the AUSTRON 2000/2100 offers it on a BNC at the backside.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN-C

[J. Forster]

I use a 1.000 MHz crystal oscillator module and a Tek DD501. It produces 1
pulse every (preset count-1) of input cycles. Triggering a scope is
trivial.

-John

=



 In message 4fa006e8.5040...@verizon.net, Stan, W1LE writes:

I will use a HP-3336C with the station 10 MHz (GPS/DO) reference.

Typo:  trigger should really be 11.148272 Hz instead of KHz !

 You need a really amazing stable and noise-free trigger to lock
 onto a 5.5Hz (see below) sine at the required level of stability
 (~2usec).

 I used my HP33120A once, but its square output is made with a
 comparator on the sine wave, and has pretty bad jitter.
 Switching to saw-tooth solved that, defining my own arbitrary
 square-wave was even better, not sure why.

 You want 1/(2*.089700) = 5.574136 Hz, otherwise every other
 loran-c pulse will cancel out due to the A/B coding polarity.

 If you don't have a counter-based signal generator, consider stealing
 a GRI or FRI-rate signal from one of your loran-C receivers, I belive
 the AUSTRON 2000/2100 offers it on a BNC at the backside.

 --
 Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
 FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
 Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by
 incompetence.

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 To unsubscribe, go to
 https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN-C

[Stan, W1LE]

Hello PHK,

Thanks for the tips.  I have not done this yet, so I am creeping along.
I also have a 33120A with the the option 001 for using an external 
reference.

Sounds like the arbitrary signal capability is the way to go,
If I can not find an appropriate 2100/2100F output.

Thanks   Stan, W1LE Cape Cod


On 5/1/2012 12:02 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:

In message4fa006e8.5040...@verizon.net, Stan, W1LE writes:


I will use a HP-3336C with the station 10 MHz (GPS/DO) reference.

Typo:  trigger should really be 11.148272 Hz instead of KHz !

You need a really amazing stable and noise-free trigger to lock
onto a 5.5Hz (see below) sine at the required level of stability
(~2usec).

I used my HP33120A once, but its square output is made with a
comparator on the sine wave, and has pretty bad jitter.
Switching to saw-tooth solved that, defining my own arbitrary
square-wave was even better, not sure why.

You want 1/(2*.089700) = 5.574136 Hz, otherwise every other
loran-c pulse will cancel out due to the A/B coding polarity.

If you don't have a counter-based signal generator, consider stealing
a GRI or FRI-rate signal from one of your loran-C receivers, I belive
the AUSTRON 2000/2100 offers it on a BNC at the backside.




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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN-C

[paul swed]

I have not been able to do anything work and a strong investment in time in
plumbing this week. Hey you have to fix'em occasionally.
Regards
Paul.

On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 3:16 PM, Stan, W1LE stanw...@verizon.net wrote:

 Hello PHK,

 Thanks for the tips.  I have not done this yet, so I am creeping along.
 I also have a 33120A with the the option 001 for using an external
 reference.
 Sounds like the arbitrary signal capability is the way to go,
 If I can not find an appropriate 2100/2100F output.

 Thanks   Stan, W1LE Cape Cod



 On 5/1/2012 12:02 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:

 In message4FA006E8.5040304@**verizon.net 4fa006e8.5040...@verizon.net,
 Stan, W1LE writes:

  I will use a HP-3336C with the station 10 MHz (GPS/DO) reference.

 Typo:  trigger should really be 11.148272 Hz instead of KHz !

 You need a really amazing stable and noise-free trigger to lock
 onto a 5.5Hz (see below) sine at the required level of stability
 (~2usec).

 I used my HP33120A once, but its square output is made with a
 comparator on the sine wave, and has pretty bad jitter.
 Switching to saw-tooth solved that, defining my own arbitrary
 square-wave was even better, not sure why.

 You want 1/(2*.089700) = 5.574136 Hz, otherwise every other
 loran-c pulse will cancel out due to the A/B coding polarity.

 If you don't have a counter-based signal generator, consider stealing
 a GRI or FRI-rate signal from one of your loran-C receivers, I belive
 the AUSTRON 2000/2100 offers it on a BNC at the backside.



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[time-nuts] Loran C back on

[Rich and Marcia Putz]

Hi all;
Receiving Wildwood NJ GRI 8970 here in northern Indiana again today.
FYI
Rich



- Original Message - 
From: time-nuts-requ...@febo.com

To: time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2012 8:21 PM
Subject: time-nuts Digest, Vol 93, Issue 152



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Today's Topics:

  1. Re: Wilkinson TDC (David)
  2. Re: General Technology Corp model 304b (paul swed)
  3. Re: Antique Rb Standard - Thanks, Pictures, Parts Request,
 Question (Magnus Danielson)
  4. Re: General Technology Corp model 304b (Ed Palmer)
  5. Re: Antique Rb Standard - Thanks, Pictures, Parts Request,
 Question (Cliff Sojourner)
  6. Re: PICDIV for 1 min pulses (Bob Camp)


--

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 18:17:10 -0500
From: David davidwh...@gmail.com
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Wilkinson TDC
Message-ID: mr9rp7lgruccve3eaq954sr1og26575...@4ax.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On Mon, 30 Apr 2012 06:51:37 +1200, Bruce Griffiths
bruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz wrote:


The circuit for the Tek 2440 is in the manual.
However, it isnt that well executed.


I like using the 2440 as an example because the design and theory are
readily available online.  Its execution only had to be good enough
for 40ps equivalent time sampling and less than 50 measurements per
second.  Unfortunately the self calibration logic is obfuscated inside
of a Tektronix black box custom ASIC.


Relying on the overload recovery of an unclamped jfet input opamp limits
the recovery time and performance as does the unisolated input
capacitance of the opamps used to control the current source transistor
emitter currents, the Wavecrest interpolators which incorporate several
refinements to improve the transient response of the current sources are
far better in this respect.


By unclamped JFET input opamps do you mean U590B and U590C which are
used to adjust the ramp start to zero volts and operate open loop
during the measurement?  With such a slow measurement rate, that
feedback loop has at least 20ms to complete settling.  I notice that
they attenuated the open loop gain by a factor of 6.  I wonder if that
was to lower the noise or to add phase margin to the control loop.


The Wavecrest interpolators also have sub picosecond resolution although
their noise is around 3-6ps.


Is there a published schematic and theory for the Wavecrest other than
the patent?  The best information I have found through Google is from
your own posts here.



Bruce

paul swed wrote:

Do you have an actual circuit?
It looks a lot like the  old hp5360 counter interpolator.
Regards
Paul

On Sun, Apr 29, 2012 at 3:51 AM, Bruce 
Griffithsbruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz



wrote:



The essentials of a Wikinson TDC can be simplified to the attached 
circuit
which only requires the addition of a zero crossing comparator to 
monitor

the voltage across the capacitor C1.

A few refinements to improve the capacitor charging current switching
transitions and the addition of an upper voltage clamp together with 
the

use of faster transistors may be useful.

Apart from level shifting to drive the npn and pnp longtailed pairs 
only a
2 bit shift register is required for the synchronisers reducing the 
number

of external (to an FPGA or CPLD) logic packages required.
The jitter of the count logic etc., isn't critical and can be 
implemented

in an FPGA or CPLD.

With a 100MHz synchroniser and counter clock a resolution of 10ps can 
be

achieved with a 1000:1 ratio between charge and discharge currents.




--

Message: 2
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 19:18:13 -0400
From: paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] General Technology Corp model 304b
Message-ID:
CAD2JfAi67wi3c9Ea4p+Qcx=daowx-28JNAuw_q5cA_ZY+TDr=q...@mail.gmail.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Curious is the manual online?
Would be interesting to look at.

On Sun, Apr 29, 2012 at 6:33 PM, Ed Palmer ed_pal...@sasktel.net wrote:


Hi Don,

On 4/29/2012 2:54 PM, Donald Henderickx wrote:


On 4/29/2012 1:36 PM, Ed Palmer wrote:

Thank you Ed,Paul,and Marco for the reply's
The foam I was referring to is or was around ceramic base  were the
igniter wire goes . Yes my wire also broke loose however I do not want 
to
disassemble any more than I have to. I think that just inserting it back 
in

to the hole and securing in some way 

Re: [time-nuts] Loran C back on

[Stan, W1LE]

Rich, Thanks for the heads up. I will turn stuff back on.

Stan, W1LE   Cape Cod FN41sr


On 4/29/2012 8:26 PM, Rich and Marcia Putz wrote:

Hi all;
Receiving Wildwood NJ GRI 8970 here in northern Indiana again today.
FYI
Rich




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[time-nuts] LORAN-C at MIT

[J. Forster]

At the MIT Flea today, I saw 4x Austron 2100Fs for about $25 each. There
was also a LORAN-C simulator and a Stanford LORAN-C unit for $200.

Seems the stuff is hitting the skids.

-John






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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN-C at MIT

[Rob Kimberley]

Silly thought, but do you know if the 2100F units sold or not. I'm
interested at that price as Loran still good in UK (plus I used to sell
these when I worked for Austron, and would be nice to actually own one).

Rob Kimberley

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of J. Forster
Sent: 15 April 2012 19:41
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] LORAN-C at MIT

At the MIT Flea today, I saw 4x Austron 2100Fs for about $25 each. There was
also a LORAN-C simulator and a Stanford LORAN-C unit for $200.

Seems the stuff is hitting the skids.

-John






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