Re: [TruthTalk] Is the Bible Complete?---Part 2
David Miller wrote: DAVEH: > As I see it, if something is missing (viz., the doctrinal explanation > whether or not baptism of infants is necessary) and different sects > create their own man made doctrine to make up for that 'inadequacy', > then it is the missing stuff that allows Satan to gain a foothold. > If the Bible contained the same doctrinal information about infant > baptism that is included in the BofM, then it would be much harder > for men to introduce errant doctrines and practices. I understand what you say here. The problem is that you are not saying here what Joseph Smith said. You are saying that men are not safeguarded from error as sufficiently as if the Bible had the "missing parts." I can accept that IF it were clear that the Bible had missing parts, and IF it was clear that men today could not gain that knowledge through other means. On the other hand, Joseph Smith wrote that men stumble and are brought under the power of Satan. Do you see the difference between your idea that men are not as safe from error versus Smith's statement that an exceedingly great many people are brought under Satan's power? Joseph Smith talks about the abominable church maliciously removing parts from the Bible to blind people and harden hearts. He wrote, "And all this have they done, that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men" (1 Nephi 13:27). Then he talks about the abominable church going after this corrupted Bible. Then he talks about how an exceedingly great many people stumble and are brought under Satan's power, because the Bible they go after was altered and had parts removed. Your paragraph above is much more mild compared to Joseph Smith's writing. DAVEH: I don't view it as JS's writing, but rather Nephi's. Joseph Smith wrote that people stumble and are brought under Satan's power because the "book" had parts removed from it by the great and abominable church. You seem to disagree with him by saying, "no, the Bible is not the problem, but rather because the Bible has some missing parts, it is easier for men to be led astray and follow errant doctrines and practices." You are not on the same page as Joseph Smith. DAVEH: If you think JS thought the Bible was bringing folks under Satan's power, then it why do you think it likely that he would espouse it? The fact that he considered the Bible to be the Word of God and included it as Scripture for the LDS Church would imply that you are mistaking JS's regard for the Bible. Another possible problem here is that it seems to me that you keep flip-flopping on your definition of "Bible." I think this is causing difficulty in our communication about this passage in the Book of Mormon. In the context of the Bible being the Word of God, you say that you believe it is as far as it is translated correctly. DAVEH: And as I remember, you seemed to agree with that. The Bible in these discussions is that book which we are able to translate. It is that book which is "missing many plain and precious parts." However, when we talk about the Bible being something that brings people under the power of Satan, DAVEH: Again..Let's get this straight, DavidM. It was YOU and Glenn who have inferred that it is the Bible that brings people under the power of Satan. The BofM and I have repeatedly said it is what is missing from the Bible that brings people under the influence of Satan. ".because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God--BECAUSE OF THESE THINGS WHICH ARE TAKEN AWAY OUT OF THE GOSPEL OF THE LAMB, an exceeding great many do stumble, yea insomuch that Satan hath great power over them." 1Nep 13:29 it seems then you use "Bible" as that book that included the plain and precious parts which have since been removed. DAVEH: The "Bible" is a compilation of books that are accepted as canonical Scripture. As we have discussed before, that 'grouping' of books has changed over time to be whatever the earthly denominations think they should be. IMHO, there were books of accepted Scripture accepted anciently that are not in the "Bible" as we know it today. Do you agree with that, DavidM? DaveH wrote: > Now DavidM, if the Bible had recorded such, do you think there > would be any denominations practicing infant baptism now? Certainly not as many, but considering that some denominations practice homosexuality, I can't say that there would be none. People can take a lot of liberty in how they reconcile the meaning of passages. DAVEH: I'm glad we agree on that. Then you apparently are aware of the doctrines of men that have pervaded Christianity today? It is my belief that this is because of two things.a lack of Scriptural information, and the lack of revelation from post Biblical prophets and apostles who could have given
Re: [TruthTalk] Is the Bible Complete?--Part 1
In a message dated 10/15/2002 12:19:32 AM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Adam and Eve were given the same test. They were commanded to multiply and replenish the earth, yet were also commanded not to partake of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. There was simply no way they could keep both commandments. Either way, they would lose. But they had to CHOOSE What does replenishing the earth have to do with obeying God and not partaking of the tree? Laura
Re: [TruthTalk] Is the Bible Complete?--Part 1
In a message dated 10/15/2002 12:19:32 AM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On the other hand, his wife and others were not as full of faith as he was, so he knew they would have a difficult time accepting his going forward with keeping this new commandment. So if one partner is weaker in the faith, it is OK to just go find another one! Not the way I read my Bible. Laura
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
Glenn - Your question makes no sense to me? You can trust in the Mormon walk, I will trust in Jesus. I have no backup plan. DAVEH: Glenn.have you ever considered that Jesus may show you the way to heaven, but you have to walk the path he provided? Do you think the Lord will drag you to heaven??? :-) So Glenn, You are saying that faith alone is enough but that works are an evicence of this faith - Right?? Laura --
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
Glenn wrote: No way. This perfection doctrine has you blinded. As I have said before, works nullify grace. This is not a Biblical statement. The Bible teaches that TRUSTING IN WORKS nullifies grace. It does not teach that works nullify grace. If it did, then all the righteous men from Abraham to the apostle John who had good works would have had the grace of God nullified in their life. What a ridiculous notion! Please present Scripture to explain your position, or retract your statement that works nullify grace. Back to the Bible. The Bible teaches that faith, which is a work of grace in our lives, is PERFECTED by works, NOT NULLIFIED BY WORKS. Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and BY WORKS WAS FAITH MADE PERFECT? (Jam 2:22) Glenn wrote: The only way one can claim to be perfect is to redefine Biblical perfection. Be ye perfect, as I am perfect is Biblical perfection. And no one is perfect in the Biblical sense. How do you know? Are you God? Who are you to say whether or not someone is perfect? If nobody is perfect as you claim, then there would be no basis for any of us to judge whether or not anybody else was perfect. Only God would be able to judge who is perfect or not. So then why are you ursurping that position, by your own theology, and claiming that nobody is perfect? God has already made it clear in some passages of Scripture that men were perfect in his eyes. For example, consider Job 1:1, There was a man ... whose name was Job; and that man was perfect ... and Paul says in Phil. 3:15, let us therefore, AS MANY AS BE PERFECT ... Now I understand that you do not consider yourself in that camp of people that Paul was addressing in Phil. 3:15, but what gives you the authority to declare that nobody on earth is in that camp either? Are you sure that you just aren't trying to keep everyone down on your low level? :-) If the Bible teaches perfection, and if the Bible commands us to be perfect, and if the Bible names men who were perfect, then let us believe the Bible and lay our silly philosophy and comfortable theology aside and believe the Bible. Glenn wrote: As I listened to this perfection doctrine on TT a long time ago, the more I could not believe it. The thing that convinced me it was wrong, was the redefining of perfection different from Biblical perfection. I have never defined perfection except by using the Bible. I consider this an ad hominem slur if you do not back it up with some substantive statements showing that I have redefined perfection. Glenn wrote: I am perfect in that I don't lie, steal, or cheat, but that is not Biblical perfection. No one, David, including you, has perfect love, perfect hope, perfect faith. No one is perfect in doing everything they are supposed to do (sins of omission). You are extremely arrogant if you think you, not being perfect, are able to judge who is perfect. Leave the judging of who is doing everything they are supposed to do in God's hands. By the way, that is how I understand perfection, as doing everything that you are suppose to do. But I would not say that a person who is perfect has complete love, complete hope, and complete faith. The man who is walking in Biblical perfection continues to grow, as a light that shines brighter and brighter unto the perfect day. The man who is perfect (mature, doing all that he is supposed to do) has not arrived, but continues to grow. We say that he is perfect when he walks in all the love, all the hope, and all the faith that he can at that point in time. If in God's eyes, a man is doing all that God expects of him, then that man is considered perfect by God. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Is the Bible Complete?---Part 2
WRONG. I just read your BoM. You are changing the BoM. I have noticed how Mormons deny their doctrines and have changed their doctrines through the years. Mormons sure used to be anti-Negro. DAVEH: Again..Let's get this straight, DavidM. It was YOU and Glenn who have inferred that it is the Bible that brings people under the power of Satan. The BofM and I have repeatedly said it is what is missing from the Bible that brings people under the influence of Satan.
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormon inconsistences
Blainer wrote: I ... came across an exellent summary of BH Roberts life in the Introduction to his book, Studies of the Book of Mormon.. Some of your questions are answered there. www.lds-mormon.com/roberts.shtml Wow! I thought you were against anti-Mormon sites. So here is an article on an anti-Mormon site that you consider an excellent summary. Great. Maybe we are making some progress now as you consider expanding your realm of reading. I followed a link at the bottom of the page you referenced and found information about Joe Smith's activity with seeing stones prior to doing the Book of Mormon. The link is: http://www.lds-mormon.com/seerstn.shtml Maybe you can read it and tell me what you think. I first learned of this through other sources, but I just haven't had time to pull those references and quote them for you. Do you still not believe that Joseph Smith did any divining with seeing stones prior to the Book of Mormon? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] How should we examine Mormonism?
Blainer wrote: You quoted from some other writings--BH Robert-- Studies of the Book Of Mormon. I have doubts that you quoted in context--and even if you did report the full meaning of what was being offered, it at least supports my belief that BH Roberts was capable of honestly reflecting his beliefs in his writing. Sure. My purpose in quoting him was not to try and say that Roberts was anti-Mormon. I was trying to say that the evidence is not anti-Mormon propoganda, as you seem to suggest. For a Mormon authority like Roberts to acknowledge such difficulties means that it deserves some consideration and discussion rather than just dismissing the ideas as anti-Mormon propaganda. Blainer wrote: But I would like the full context of what was written, rather than a few quotes here and a few quotes there, so I will just get the book. I would like to get his overall views, not just a few isolated comments. Good, get the book. I sent you a link that should give you a 10% discount at Amazon. Blainer wrote: Nevertheless, I am convinced of the integrity of this writer, so will refer to him from here on. You also seem to accept him, so we at least have agreement in this. OK? Ok. Blainer wrote: So, when we have a diffugalty, I may write the impressions of BH Roberts, and they will not be characterized as being biased, OK? Wait, I thought everyone was biased. LOL. BH Roberts is one source. His word is not gospel, but I do consider him a good source of information. He is one of the more objective and intelligent Mormon scholars. Nevertheless, he was employed by the Mormon organization, and he was a polygamist, even during a time when it was against the law. Blainer wrote: I have to also say that I accept JS and his integrity, even though you do not, and will probably accept his point of view over any other, including BH Roberts. OK? I think that is misplaced trust. It would be better not to blindly follow anybody. Those who trust in the flesh will not prosper. We should accept what is in the Bible over what anyone else says, including Joseph Smith. If you want some foundation of authority, then I think the Bible must be it, not some modern man who claimed to have revelation from God. Even his own writings admit that he was a sinner with faults, fallible, and wrong at times. Even in your own Scriptures he speaks in the name of God asking Emma to forgive him for his sins. To blindly trust a man with such a tesimony is not wise, in my opinion. Especially when he was killed shortly later, though he warned that it would be Emma who would be destroyed if she did not listen and obey what he was saying. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Laura wrote: So Glenn, You are saying that faith alone is enough but that works are an evidence of this faith - Right?? But faith alone is not what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches that justification is of faith, NOT OF WORKS. It simply places the effectiveness as being due to believing on not due to working. Such a statement does not mean that works do not follow. In other words, Paul still has in mind, faith + works, but he is focusing upon faith as being the part with efficacy for justification. James and Paul are speaking about the same kind of faith and the same kind of works, but James does emphasize good works (morality), whereas Paul seems to emphasize works of the law with attention toward circumcision, etc. Nevertheless, the balanced understanding of this subject comes by realizing that they both have the same thing in mind, but they are addressing people who are erring on different sides of the issue. Michael D: This is exactly why I prefaced my statementssaying that it is a matter of perspective. To Paul, a man is not saved by works, - For by grace are you saved through faith... not of works, lest any man shall boast.Yet he said let the believer's life be full of good works. He never uses it as a condition of getting saved. MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: Click Here -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Is the Bible Complete?--Part 1
Blainer wrote: Why were Joseph Smith's enemies always such a bunch of low-lifes? David Miller wrote: This statement is completely irresponsible. Were there low-lifes that were against Joseph Smith? Sure, but were all of his enemies low-lifes? Of course not. Just one example: Alexander Campbell. Did Campbell ever try to hurt Joseph Smith? I think you owe us an apology for this absurd statement. Blainer wrote: After reading the Alexander Campbell writings, I consider him a low-life. . . LOL. You are losing all credibility. You defined a low life as a murderer, rapist, liar, etc. Now you say that Alexander Campbell was one? Why? Because he disagreed with Joe Smith? Have you read anything Campbell wrote other than this critique of the Book of Mormon? To call him a low life is like an anti-Mormon calling B.H. Roberts a low life. It just does not make any sense. Do you realize that if it were not for the work of Campbell, there might not be any Mormonism at all? The Campbellites made up the first congregation of Joe Smith. There were plenty of other Campbellite ministers criticizing and warning others not to get involved in it, but still, the foundation of Mormonism was in disciples of Campbell who came over to the Mormon camp. Blainer wrote: I answered your questions extensively. Sorry that you were unhappy with what I said. You apparently expected me to agree with you. Did you get my post, even? Sorry, Blainer, but I had not read that post until recently. Still, I don't see how you can say that Joe Smith was a man who kept his word if you argue that he would be justified in deceiving people about polygamy. Abraham started down that road in deceiving others about his wife, but God corrected him by revealing his lie to the king, and so Abraham repented and no longer walked as a deceiver. Jacob too deceived his father, but suffered for it and the truth was made known. I can understand how men might sin, but I do not understand how men might justify the sins of other men. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
On the contrary, Glenn, I agree completely with Michael's statement and believe it. I teach it that way all the time. Peace be with you.David Miller. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test I am understanding, because of his perfection doctrine, that David does not believe your comment below. Either he does or he does not. This is a "sacred cow' with him that distinguishes him from others. It seems to me most everyone has their sacred cow. Michael D: This is exactly why I prefaced my statements saying that it is a matter of perspective. To Paul, a man is not saved by works, - For by grace are you saved through faith... not of works, lest any man shall boast.Yet he said let the believer's life be full of good works. He never uses it as a condition of getting saved.
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
OK, then agreed. On the contrary, Glenn, I agree completely with Michael's statement and believe it. I teach it that way all the time. Peace be with you. David Miller.
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
Glenn wrote: No way. This perfection doctrine has you blinded. As I have said before, works nullify grace This is not a Biblical statement. The Bible teaches that TRUSTING IN WORKS nullifies grace. It does not teach that works nullify grace. If it did, then all the righteous men from Abraham to the apostle John who had good works would have had the grace of God nullified in their life. What a ridiculous notion! Please present Scripture to explain your position, or retract your statement that works nullify grace. Glenn = If you agree with Michael's statement then the above doesn't make sense to me. Back to the Bible. The Bible teaches that faith, which is a work of grace in our lives, is PERFECTED by works, NOT NULLIFIED BY WORKS. "Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and BY WORKS WAS FAITH MADE PERFECT?" (Jam 2:22) Glenn - If you agree with Michael then I don't see any benefit in jockeying over words. Glenn wrote: The only way one can claim to be perfect is to redefine Biblical perfection. "Be ye perfect, as I am perfect" is Biblical perfection. And no one is perfect in the Biblical sense. How do you know? Are you God? Who are you to say whether or not someone is perfect? If nobody is perfect as you claim, then there would be no basis for any of us to judge whether or not anybody else was perfect. Only God would be able to judge who is perfect or not. So then why are you ursurping that position, by your own theology, and claiming that nobody is perfect? Glenn - I don't want to hurt your feelings, but you have convinced me the perfection doctrine is wrong. The statement above shows I have hit your "sacred cow". It doesn't take a perfect person to see imperfection. Who am I? I am a sinner saved by grace. I am justified - just as if I never sinned. I am claiming no person, including you, is perfect, because of the Biblical definition of perfection, "Be ye perfect as I am perfect". Your definition of perfection is not he same as this verse. You also confuse perfection with maturity, in my opinion. God has already made it clear in some passages of Scripture that men were perfect in his eyes. For example, consider Job 1:1, "There was a man ... whose name was Job; and that man was perfect ..." and Paul says in Phil. 3:15, "let us therefore, AS MANY AS BE PERFECT ..." Now I understand that you do not consider yourself in that camp of people that Paul was addressing in Phil. 3:15, but what gives you the authority to declare that nobody on earth is in that camp either? Are you sure that you just aren't trying to keep everyone down on your low level? :-) If the Bible teaches perfection, and if the Bible commands us to be perfect, and if the Bible names men who were perfect, then let us believe the Bible and lay our silly philosophy and comfortable theology aside and believe the Bible. Glenn wrote: As I listened to this perfection doctrine on TT a long time ago, the more I could not believe it. The thing that convinced me it was wrong, was the redefining of "perfection" different from Biblical perfection. I have never defined "perfection" except by using the Bible. I consider this an ad hominem slur if you do not back it up with some substantive statements showing that I have "redefined" perfection. Glenn - So be it. I backed it up above. Have you noticed how this doctrine is your "sacred cow"? Glenn wrote: I am perfect in that I don't lie, steal, or cheat, but that is not Biblical perfection. No one, David, including you, has perfect love, perfect hope, perfect faith. No one is perfect in doing everything they are supposed to do (sins of omission). You are extremely arrogant if you think you, not being perfect, are able to judge who is perfect. Leave the judging of who is doing everything they are supposed to do in God's hands. Glenn - Your judging me shows you are not perfect. The Bible teaches you cannot judge my motives. So you are wrong right here. You don't know if I am arrogant or honestly disagreeing with you. By the way, that is how I understand perfection, as doing everything that you are suppose to do. But I would not say that a person who is perfect has complete love, complete hope, and complete faith. The man who is walking in Biblical perfection continues to grow, as a light that shines brighter and brighter unto the perfect day. The man who is perfect (mature, doing all that he is supposed to do) has not arrived, but continues to grow. We say that he is perfect when he walks in all the love, all the hope, and all the faith that he can at that point in time. If in God's eyes, a man is doing all that God expects of him, then that man is considered perfect by God. Glenn - With the above statement you have made my case. So it was no "ad hominem" argument. This kind of perfection is not Biblical perfection. "Be ye perfect as I am perfect" means be perfect as God is perfect. God has perfect love. God does not grow. Perfection cannot be improved upon.
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Glenn wrote: No way. This perfection doctrine has you blinded. As I have said before, works nullify grace This is not a Biblical statement. The Bible teaches that TRUSTING IN WORKS nullifies grace. It does not teach that works nullify grace. If it did, then all the righteous men from Abraham to the apostle John who had good works would have had the grace of God nullified in their life. What a ridiculous notion! Please present Scripture to explain your position, or retract your statement that works nullify grace. Glenn = If you agree with Michael's statement then the above doesn't make sense to me. Back to the Bible. The Bible teaches that faith, which is a work of grace in our lives, is PERFECTED by works, NOT NULLIFIED BY WORKS. "Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and BY WORKS WAS FAITH MADE PERFECT?" (Jam 2:22) Glenn - If you agree with Michael then I don't see any benefit in jockeying over words. Glenn wrote: The only way one can claim to be perfect is to redefine Biblical perfection. "Be ye perfect, as I am perfect" is Biblical perfection. And no one is perfect in the Biblical sense. How do you know? Are you God? Who are you to say whether or not someone is perfect? If nobody is perfect as you claim, then there would be no basis for any of us to judge whether or not anybody else was perfect. Only God would be able to judge who is perfect or not. So then why are you ursurping that position, by your own theology, and claiming that nobody is perfect? Glenn - I don't want to hurt your feelings, but you have convinced me the perfection doctrine is wrong. The statement above shows I have hit your "sacred cow". It doesn't take a perfect person to see imperfection. Who am I? I am a sinner saved by grace. I am justified - just as if I never sinned. I am claiming no person, including you, is perfect, because of the Biblical definition of perfection, "Be ye perfect as I am perfect". Your definition of perfection is not he same as this verse. You also confuse perfection with maturity, in my opinion. Michael D: Just a couple observations/questions to ponderhere, guys: 1. I would think that ...Be ye prefect as your Father which in heaven is perfect... is an injunction not a definition. The question to me is what is perfection? A clear definition (based on scripture) might help there. 2. Was Jesus perfect? If so, when did He become perfect? Was he perfect at 5, 10 , 15 yrs old? (Again, this goes back to the definition of perfect). 3. Will God require us to do something that we are unable to do through Him? 4. Is perfection assessed on the entire span of one's walk with God, over a specified time frame,or at a given point in time? And can one fall below this perfection and then regain it? I think this looks at some practical issues re this topic. God has already made it clear in some passages of Scripture that men were perfect in his eyes. For example, consider Job 1:1, "There was a man ... whose name was Job; and that man was perfect ..." and Paul says in Phil. 3:15, "let us therefore, AS MANY AS BE PERFECT ..." Now I understand that you do not consider yourself in that camp of people that Paul was addressing in Phil. 3:15, but what gives you the authority to declare that nobody on earth is in that camp either? Are you sure that you just aren't trying to keep everyone down on your low level? :-) If the Bible teaches perfection, and if the Bible commands us to be perfect, and if the Bible names men who were perfect, then let us believe the Bible and lay our silly philosophy and comfortable theology aside and believe the Bible. Michael D: David, allow me to suggest that some of your language in dealing with this seems to be a bit loaded. Maybe you would want to consider this in treating with the topic...I guessGlennmight be seen as doing the samewith his 'sacred cow' description. Glenn - So be it. I backed it up above. Have you noticed how this doctrine is your "sacred cow"? You are extremely arrogant if you think you, not being perfect, are able to judge who is perfect. Leave the judging of who is doing everything they are supposed to do in God's hands. Glenn - Your judging me shows you are not perfect. The Bible teaches you cannot judge my motives. So you are wrong right here. You don't know if I am arrogant or honestly disagreeing with you. By the way, that is how I understand perfection, as doing everything that you are suppose to do. But I would not say that a person who is perfect has complete love, complete hope, and complete faith. The man who is walking in Biblical perfection continues to grow, as a light that shines brighter and brighter unto the perfect day. The man who is perfect (mature, doing all that he is supposed to do) has notarrived, but
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
Christian living is perfected by works. Salvation is not of works. Salvation is not perfected by works. I gave the Bible for this when I answered the true or false test. Back to the Bible. The Bible teaches that faith, which is a work of grace in our lives, is PERFECTED by works, NOT NULLIFIED BY WORKS. "Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and BY WORKS WAS FAITH MADE PERFECT?" (Jam 2:22)
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
Michael D: Just a couple observations/questions to ponder here, guys: 1. I would think that ...Be ye prefect as your Father which in heaven is perfect... is an injunction not a definition. The question to me is what is perfection? A clear definition (based on scripture) might help there. Glenn - Whether it is an injunction or a definition doesn't change anything to my understanding. In order for it to be an injuncton one must understand the word perfect. Here perfect is used as God is perfect. No one is perfect as God is perfect. No one. The perfect movement has redefined perfection or lowered the meaning of perfection to mean less than perfection.. 2. Was Jesus perfect? If so, when did He become perfect? Was he perfect at 5, 10 , 15 yrs old? (Again, this goes back to the definition of perfect). Glenn - Jesus was perfect. Jesus was always perfect. He never ever sinned. 3. Will God require us to do something that we are unable to do through Him? Glenn - This involves a thorough study of the book of Galatians. It is the doctrine of imputed righteousness. I just don't have time to go into it. Because I am covered with the blood of Jesus, God looks at me, sees Jesus' blood and counts me as perfect. God doesn't look beyond the blood. I would recommend the "Teacher's Outline and Study Bible - Galatians ". Leadership Ministries Worldwide, PO Box 21310, Chattanooga, TN 37424 The Preacher's Outline Sermon Bible 4. Is perfection assessed on the entire span of one's walk with God, over a specified time frame,or at a given point in time? And can one fall below this perfection and then regain it? Glenn - "Be ye perfect as God is perfect". I think this looks at some practical issues re this topic.
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
Again, you have made my point. No one is perfect as Jesus was perfect. Read what I wrote again. Notice the *IF*. You are taking this way too personal. I said, "*IF* you think you, NOT BEING PERFECT, are able to judge who is perfect." I'm not judging you either way. I'm saying that if you or anybody else thinks they are imperfect, and yet at the same time think they can judge that nobody in the world is perfect, then they are extremely arrogant. The Pharisees thought they knew how to judge what was perfect, and there he was, standing in their midst, and they could not recognize perfection. Why? Because they were lifted up with pride thinking that they could make such judgments. The ones who received Jesus were the ones who recognized that they were blind and unable to judge who was perfect.
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
PREI was taught that imputed righteousness means that we receive the righteousness of Christ because we can't possible be completely righteous on our own. Laura -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
Laura wrote: I was taught that imputed righteousness means that we receive the righteousness of Christ because we can't possible be completely righteous on our own. Right, but that imputed righteousness is not like some placard that you hold up and trick God into thinking you are perfect when you really are not. When Jesus makes you righteous, you are righteous in deed. It is not a fake righteousness. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
I agree Laura Laura wrote: I was taught that imputed righteousness means that we receive the righteousness of Christ because we can't possible be completely righteous on our own. Right, but that imputed righteousness is not like some placard that you hold up and trick God into thinking you are perfect when you really are not. When Jesus makes you righteous, you are righteous in deed. It is not a fake righteousness. Peace be with you. David Miller.
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
Glenn wrote: No one is perfect as Jesus was perfect. That is your opinion, but the Bible disagrees with you. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. (1 John 3:7) I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; YET NOT I, BUT CHRIST LIVETH IN ME: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. (Gal. 2:20) He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. (1 John 2:6) Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
The verses you are using you are misusing. Glenn wrote: No one is perfect as Jesus was perfect. That is your opinion, but the Bible disagrees with you. "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous." (1 John 3:7) "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; YET NOT I, BUT CHRIST LIVETH IN ME: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." (Gal. 2:20) "He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." (1 John 2:6) Peace be with you. David Miller.
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
INothing we can do makes us righteous. We are righteous because we are justified by faith in Christ Jesus. Works don't justify BUT the justified man works. I read that the other day and it made sense to me. Laura Glenn wrote: No one is perfect as Jesus was perfect. That is your opinion, but the Bible disagrees with you. "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous." (1 John 3:7)
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
Laura wrote: Nothing we can do makes us righteous. We are righteous because we are justified by faith in Christ Jesus. Works don't justify BUT the justified man works. I read that the other day and it made sense to me. Amen. This is a good way to say it too. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] chew on this: check out the church of child sex
The Holms belong to the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, whose members openly practice plural marriage. http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36%257E23827%257E925416%257E,00.html gary ottoson ** aa1ozg.com
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
Glenn wrote: The verses you are using you are misusing. No, I am not misusing them. Read the whole epistle of 1 John and believe it. Glenn wrote: No one is perfect as Jesus was perfect. Let's look at the first verse that I quoted: Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. (1 John 3:7) This passage means that when we do righteousness, we are as righteous as Jesus. You teach that men are not as righteous as Jesus. That teaching contradicts the Bible. If our righteousness comes from Jesus Christ, then it is obvious that we are just as righteous as Jesus when we are justified by faith in him. That is what the next verse says. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; YET NOT I, BUT CHRIST LIVETH IN ME: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. (Gal. 2:20) If I no longer live, but Christ lives in me, then the righteous deeds that I do are not my works, but rather the works of Christ. If the life I live is now the life of Christ, then I am as perfect and as righteous as Jesus Christ. This is what imputed righteousness means. The next verse that I quoted was: He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. (1 John 2:6) You try and teach that our walk can never compare to Jesus Christ, but this passage is clear yet again that we ought to walk just like Jesus. What verses in the Bible do you use to support your teaching that nobody is perfect like Jesus is perfect? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
Glenn wrote: You're playing the word game here. You knew full well I was talking about adults. I'm not playing any word game at all. This was revealed to me by the Holy Spirit. Jesus grew and learned obedience through the things that he suffered. Yet we call him perfect. Why is that? There is much more that can be said about this. The questions I asked you are sincere. I wish you would answer them and not ignore them. Glenn wrote: Yes, this is your sacred cow. You are accusing me of the sin of idolatry. I believe in holiness, and that it is not our holiness, but the holiness of Jesus. We can be as righteous as Jesus, through faith in Jesus Christ. Glenn wrote: You are not are reasonable on this as you are on other matters. I only don't appear reasonsable to you because this is your sacred cow, to keep teaching a sinning doctrine. Again, like I have done with the Mormons, I do with you. I quote the Bible and show you how it applies. You simply deny and ignore my questions, just like the Mormons have done. Glenn wrote: The Bible does not disagree with me. David, please, I don't want to offend you, but YOU are the reason I don't believe in perfection. You seem to hit the ceiling over this pet doctrine. I haven't hit any ceiling. I'm just pushing you a little further than I have in the past. The reason you don't believe in holiness is not because of me but because the sinning doctrine of men makes you feel comfortable and a teaching about good works and holiness makes you uncomfortable because it means you have some room to grow some more. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] click on 'g' for poetry
On Sun, 6 Oct 2002 22:25:40 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Blainer) I hate to say this..This is the stuff of hatred. 10/15 g: roflx666!!! for reference: On Sat, 5 Oct 2002 13:05:20 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:Satan and JC *arenot/never will* be 'brothers'--it's simply not possible
