Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
Bill, Thank you for taking the time to answer Judy's post with such a detailed response. Although I, too, believe that Jesus said, "My God, My God, what haveyou forsaken me?" to bring Psalm 22 to the minds of those present at the cross, and toour mindsthrough the scriptures, the question remains: what did the Psalmist mean by uttering that statement? How is that statement relevant to the crucifixion of Jesus, other than being the first line of the "song"? Does this statement apply to the Psalmist, or to the crucified Christ? If it applies to the crucified Christ, (as does the rest of the Psalm), then what does it mean in the context of the crucifixion? I feel that by relegating that statement, as uttered from the cross, to a mere memory device, we may overlook the significance of it! Thanks,Perry WT: Psalm 22.1 begins with this most haunting cry, and both Matthew and Mark tell us that Jesus took it up when he was dying on the cross. It is very natural for us, steeped as we are in the legal framework of Western Evangelical thought, to see this cry of Jesus as the supreme _expression_ of his passion. With the justice of God in the background, Jesus takes upon himself our sin and God unleashes upon him the fury of his eternal wrath. And in that horrible, unthinkable moment, Jesus cries out, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me." But is this the correct interpretation of this verse? What if we read it as true Trinitarian Christians, with the Triune God, not the legalized God of holy anger, in the back of our minds. Again, and I know you know this, this cry of Jesus is a direct quotation from Psalm 22. If we read the Psalm as a whole, we find the message does not end in despair at all, but in Victory; in fact, it ends with the remarkable prophesy, "All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the Lord, and all the families of the nations will worship before You. ... They will come and will declare His righteousness to a people who will be born, that he has performed it" (2731). Between the cry and the prophecy lies the whole range of human emotion. The first two verses are words of deep despair: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? ... O my God, I cry by day but you do not answer." The anguish of the Psalmist is heightened in that his cries are met by stone-cold silence. But in his despair he rehearses the faith of his fathers. He goes back to the old stories of God's faithfulness: "In you our fathers trusted; the trusted and you delivered them. To you they cried out and were delivered. In you they trusted and were not disappointed" (4-5). But then the psalmist takes a turn into deeper despair and darkness: "But I am a worm, and not a man. A reproach of men, and despised by the people" (6). He is well aware of the heroes of the faith, but I, he thinks to himself, am not a hero. I am not even a good person. Even the people despise me. They mock my trust in God. Go ahead, they say, commit yourself to the Lord and see what happens. Let the Lord deliver you. Then the Psalmist looks away from himself and the people and sets his eyes again upon God. "Yet," he says, "You are the One who brought me forth from the womb. You made me trust when I was at my mother's breast. Upon you I was cast from birth and you have been my God from my mother's womb" (9-10). Here the Psalmist cries out for deliverance: "Be not far from me, for trouble is near; for there is none to help. Many bulls have surrounded me; Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled me. They gape at me with their mouths, Like a raging and roaring lion. I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint; my heart is like wax; It has melted within me. My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue clings to my jaws; you have brought me to the dust of death. For dogs have surrounded me; the congregation of the wicked has enclosed me. They pierced Mm hands and my feet; I can count all my bones. They look at me and stare. They divide my garments among them, and for my clothing they cast lots. But You, O LORD, do not be far from me; O my Strength, hasten to help me! Deliver me from the sword, my precious life from the power of the dog. Save me from the lion's mouth and from the horns of the wild oxen! You have answered me. I will declare Your name to my brethren; In the midst of the assembl y I will praise You" (11-21). The trauma of the Psalmist is staggering. His insides are shredded with fear. He has no courage and no hope. He is crying out to God for help, for deliverance. Then the Psalmist makes another turn. The despair ends, and praise begins and the whole ordeal comes to a victorious end, such that coming generations will look back on this event and see that the Lord has performed his salvation: "I will declare Your name to my brethren; In the midst of the assembly I will praise You. ... For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; nor has He hidden His face from Him; But when He
Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
Perry, thanks. I probably should have made myself clearer here. Jesus, as he did throughout his life, was crying their cry, humanity's cry, when he cried, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me. Bill - Original Message - From: Charles Perry Locke To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2004 6:34 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have Bill, Thank you for taking the time to answer Judy's post with such a detailed response. Although I, too, believe that Jesus said, "My God, My God, what haveyou forsaken me?" to bring Psalm 22 to the minds of those present at the cross, and toour mindsthrough the scriptures, the question remains: what did the Psalmist mean by uttering that statement? How is that statement relevant to the crucifixion of Jesus, other than being the first line of the "song"? Does this statement apply to the Psalmist, or to the crucified Christ? If it applies to the crucified Christ, (as does the rest of the Psalm), then what does it mean in the context of the crucifixion? I feel that by relegating that statement, as uttered from the cross, to a mere memory device, we may overlook the significance of it! Thanks,Perry WT: Psalm 22.1 begins with this most haunting cry, and both Matthew and Mark tell us that Jesus took it up when he was dying on the cross. It is very natural for us, steeped as we are in the legal framework of Western Evangelical thought, to see this cry of Jesus as the supreme _expression_ of his passion. With the justice of God in the background, Jesus takes upon himself our sin and God unleashes upon him the fury of his eternal wrath. And in that horrible, unthinkable moment, Jesus cries out, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me." But is this the correct interpretation of this verse? What if we read it as true Trinitarian Christians, with the Triune God, not the legalized God of holy anger, in the back of our minds. Again, and I know you know this, this cry of Jesus is a direct quotation from Psalm 22. If we read the Psalm as a whole, we find the message does not end in despair at all, but in Victory; in fact, it ends with the remarkable prophesy, "All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the Lord, and all the families of the nations will worship before You. ... They will come and will declare His righteousness to a people who will be born, that he has performed it" (2731). Between the cry and the prophecy lies the whole range of human emotion. The first two verses are words of deep despair: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? ... O my God, I cry by day but you do not answer." The anguish of the Psalmist is heightened in that his cries are met by stone-cold silence. But in his despair he rehearses the faith of his fathers. He goes back to the old stories of God's faithfulness: "In you our fathers trusted; the trusted and you delivered them. To you they cried out and were delivered. In you they trusted and were not disappointed" (4-5). But then the psalmist takes a turn into deeper despair and darkness: "But I am a worm, and not a man. A reproach of men, and despised by the people" (6). He is well aware of the heroes of the faith, but I, he thinks to himself, am not a hero. I am not even a good person. Even the people despise me. They mock my trust in God. Go ahead, they say, commit yourself to the Lord and see what happens. Let the Lord deliver you. Then the Psalmist looks away from himself and the people and sets his eyes again upon God. "Yet," he says, "You are the One who brought me forth from the womb. You made me trust when I was at my mother's breast. Upon you I was cast from birth and you have been my God from my mother's womb" (9-10). Here the Psalmist cries out for deliverance: "Be not far from me, for trouble is near; for there is none to help. Many bulls have surrounded me; Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled me. They gape at me with their mouths, Like a raging and roaring lion. I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint; my heart is like wax; It has melted within me. My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue clings to my jaws; you have brought me to the dust of death. For dogs have surrounded me; the congregation of the wicked has enclosed me. They pierced Mm hands and my feet; I can count all my bones. They look at me and stare. They divide my garments among them, and for my clothing they cast lots. But You, O LORD, do not be far from me; O my Strength, hasten to help me! Deliver me from the sword, my precious life from the power of the dog. Save me from the lion's mouth and from the horns of the wild oxen! You have answered me. I will declare Your name to my brethren; In the midst of the assembl y I will praise You"
Re: [TruthTalk] Graven images
Paul the Apostle tells us to Put on the whole armour of God... Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Does the LDS version add "last but not least put on your Royal Underwear" If the Temple garments really are an "outward _expression_ of an inward covenant" Why not wear them on the outside? Where does the Bible tell us about Holy Underwear? Blaine Borrowman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blaine: LOL What magical powers? - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 27, 2004 5:09 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Graven images Blaine: the problem with graven images has always been that sooner orlater, people get (got) around to worshipping them and ascribing livingqualities and magical powers to them. Does that mean you do not accept the magical powers ascribed to LDS undergarments? Blaine Borrowman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blaine: the problem with graven images has always been that sooner orlater, people get (got) around to worshipping them and ascribing livingqualities and magical powers to them. This gave the priests of such imagespower to make up new rules, and doctrines such as sacrificing children,committing whoredomes, etc., which was the real problem, more than the imageitself.Moroni is no threat along these lines, because a) we do not ascribe livingor magical powers to the statues, and b) we do not worship them. Thestatues are simply there to remind us synbolically that the scripture in theBook of Revelations concerning "another angel" flying in the midst of heavenhaving the everlasting gospel to preach to all nations, kindreds, tonguesand people was fulfilled when Moroni (the angel) appeared to Joseph Smith anumber of times, and event! ually committed to him the plates from which theBook of Mormon was translated. The BoM is believed to contain theeverlasting gospel in its original purity, as believed in and practiced bythe early saints.By the way, what about the crosses most Christian Churches have? Are thesenot "images" of things on earth? Yet you don't seem to worship them ,although some people seem to ascribe magical powers to them, as they wearthese symbols around their necks. Is this correct? Some beliefs even go sofar as to assume the crosses themselves can ward off evil spirits??- Original Message - From: "Charles Perry Locke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 8:44 PMSubject: [TruthTalk] Graven images Blaine and DavidM, Can help me to understand the following? Exodus 20:4 states the second of the commandments: " Thou shalt not make ! unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth." Now, on every LDS temple I have seen there is a gold statue of Moroni on one of the spires. Doesn't this violate the "any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above" part of the second commandment? If not, why not. Isn't the statue a "graven image", or "likeness"? Isn't Moroni "in heaven above"? Thanks, Perry _ Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee when you click here. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you mayknow how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have afriend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. Do you Yahoo!?Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail Do you Yahoo!? Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail
[TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
From: "Wm. Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Good Morning Bill/WT: Thanks for your explanation which I deleted for the sake of brevity ... to begin with we can agree that Christ is Lord of all and that's a start. So far as I know there are no limits on this forum other than personal/ad hominem attacks and as longas we are discussing ideas rather than attacking persons there is no problem. WT: If the rubric is Truth, then historyhas a share in it; not because all history is Truth, butbecause Truth passes through all history. I get the impression thatsome in thiscommunity think that theyare in the "Bible/Spirit" room and if someone else wants to discuss philosophy or science or something else, he or she can do so, but to do so, he will have to leave behind the stuff ofthe Bible. In other words, these other things are fine, but they do not belong under the heading of "Truth." Well,that isabsurd. Why? because it impugns Christ. It is to say that Christ is Lord here in the Bible room, but there is no room for Christ in philosophy or science -- or history. JT: I can agree that truth passes through all history but all history is not recorded truthfully. Kind of likefigures don't lie but liars do figure.It is my understandingthat there are two kinds of wisdomout there just as there were two trees in the garden and asChristians we are to discern between them. Philosophy, science, and history are a mixture,some of which may be true. However, for a believer Truth is a person. His name is Jesus and heis made to us wisdom from God and in Himare hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge (Col 2:3) WT: Christis Lord, not because I say so, not because you say so, but because Christ is Lord. If I don't accept that, then I need to change. But if Christ is Lord, and if I am doing what he commanded of me, like taking every thought captive to his obedience and loving him and my neighbor, then I ought to be able to be confident in that I can go to Christian history and find in it something of pertinence to say in the "Bible" room. Thanks for the aside. Since I'm the big context-guy, I think that rather than picking and choosing what things I want to respond to and then scrapping the rest to never never land, I will leave our comments intact and preface today's statements with WT, thusallowingthe context to remain intact. JT: Hope you don't mind if I just respond to today's statements - if you prefer to go back to the whole later, no problem here. JT: Mr. Torrance's language tells mehe is a misguided Calvinist and when one begins with a faulty premise.. WT: This is a classic ad hominem; rather than rebutting the argument by appealing to reason, you said nothing about the argument, instead you attacked the man by appealing to prejudice. JT: When I wrote the above I did not consider it to be ad hominem, I don'tknow the man. I was commenting on his ideas and made thatstatement. because I've been there, done that. I had tolearn the hard way to be Berean and check everything I hear/read in God's Wordmyself. Of course this does notinclude secular philosophy, science, and history but they IMO are not in the categorycalled Truth if we use the scriptural definition. WT: If it is light, what difference does it make if it is coming through Calvin or Camels; it is still light? Calvin would have been the first to say that any light found shining around him was sourced not in himself but in the True Light which came into the world. JT: If it conflicts with orcontradicts the Word of Truth then there is a problem.Calvin's doctrinedoes this causing no end of confusion. He was still in Roman Catholicism when he began his writings and a very young man (in his early 20's). I don't see godliness in the fruit of his life. He lorded it over Geneva and had a man burned at the stake for disagreeing with him. I'll leave the judgment to God and gotoJesus Himself who is the one with ALLlight and who is ALL truth. snip I'm not baiting you Bill, just stating what I understand from scripture which is that Jesus the man became fallen and depraved from the 6th to the 9th hour; whichiswhen the light of the world went out and darkness covered the earth (Matt 27:45, Mark 15:33);he cried "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me"because for thefirst time ever he had becomeseparated from the Father because of OUR SIN. WT: I am really quite glad that you said this, because in doing so what you've done implicitlyis what we all have to do sometimes when trying to state biblical truth; that is, we have to assimilate or summarize or synthesizefrom things not stated expressly, in order tostate what we believe to be a just-as-true statement of the truth. And while I do not agree with your summary, I will both defend your right make it and refuse to call it anything less than entirely
Re: [TruthTalk] Graven images
Blaine: LOL What magical powers? Yes, I too see it as ridiculous. Unbelievably a ChurchAuthority said this. What a giggle. Elder Carlos E. Asay Emeritus Member of the First Quorum of the Seventy It is written that "the white garment symbolizes purity and helps assure modesty, respect for the attributes of God, and, to the degree it is honored, a token of what Paul regarded as taking upon one the whole armor of God (Eph. 6:13; cf. DC 27:15) Garments bear several simple marks of orientation toward the gospel principles of obedience, truth, life, and discipleship in Christ.'' Much, much more could be said about the war for the souls of men and the whole armor of God. The war on the earth began in the days of Adam, continued down through the years with Moses. and the children of Israel, and still rages in a dispensation known as the fulness of times a dispensation ushered in by the revelations received through the Prophet Joseph Smith. Hence, the issue of protective coverings enabling us to withstand the fiery darts of Satan will continue to be of great significance. We must put on the armor of God spoken of by the Apostle Paul and reiterated in a modern revelation (see DC 27:15-18). We must also "put on the armor of righteousness" (2 Ne. 1:23) symbolized by the temple garment. Otherwise, we may lose the war and perish. The heavy armor worn by soldiers of a former day, including helmets, shields, and breastplates, determined the outcome of some battles. However, the real battles of life in our modern day will be won by those who are clad in a spiritual armoran armor consisting of faith in God, faith in self, faith in one's cause, and faith in one's leaders. The piece of armor called the temple garment not only provides the comfort and warmth of a cloth covering, it also strengthens the wearer to resist temptation, fend off evil influences, and stand firmly for the right. In a letter to priesthood leaders dated 10 October 1988, the First Presidency said This has been interpreted to mean that it is worn as underclothing both day and night. This sacred covenant is between the member and the Lord. Members should seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit to answer for themselves any personal questions about the wearing of the garment The promise of protection and blessings is conditioned upon worthiness and faithfulness in keeping the covenant. So the Amor of the Lord is not good enough. Like doubting Thomas LDS faith is so miniscule that they need a Rabbits foot, a garment they can TOUCH and SEE. Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. Jesus said to become as little children, he did not mean a juvinille faith. Believing in absurd doctrines of men such as this. he wants you to become CONVERTED! MT 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted outBlaine Borrowman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blaine: LOL What magical powers? - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 27, 2004 5:09 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Graven images Blaine: the problem with graven images has always been that sooner orlater, people get (got) around to worshipping them and ascribing livingqualities and magical powers to them. Does that mean you do not accept the magical powers ascribed to LDS undergarments? Blaine Borrowman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blaine: the problem with graven images has always been that sooner orlater, people get (got) around to worshipping them and ascribing livingqualities and magical powers to them. This gave the priests of such imagespower to make up new rules, and doctrines such as sacrificing children,committing whoredomes, etc., which was the real problem, more than the imageitself.Moroni is no threat along these lines, because a) we do not ascribe livingor magical powers to the statues, and b) we do not worship them. Thestatues are simply there to remind us synbolically that the scripture in theBook of Revelations concerning "another angel" flying in the midst of heavenhaving the everlasting gospel to preach to all nations, kindreds, tonguesand people was fulfilled when Moroni (the angel) appeared to Joseph Smith anumber of times, and event! ually committed to him the plates from which theBook of Mormon was translated. The BoM is believed to contain theeverlasting gospel in its original purity, as believed in and practiced bythe early saints.By the way, what about the crosses most Christian Churches have? Are thesenot "images" of things on earth? Yet you don't seem to worship them ,although some people seem to ascribe magical powers to them, as they wearthese symbols around their necks. Is this correct? Some beliefs even go sofar as to assume the crosses themselves can ward off evil
Re: [TruthTalk] Graven images
Blaine, here is another interesting find: TX STATE INFOCRYPTIC COPPER PLATES-TREAS CLUE?/WILSON TT DEC 71 58 TT is True Treasure Magazine Perry _ Take off on a romantic weekend or a family adventure to these great U.S. locations. http://special.msn.com/local/hotdestinations.armx -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] Old hebrew Coins found in Kentucky?
Blaine, We have discussed on the group the fact that there is no archaeological evidence of early Hebrew civilizations in the Americas. However, I was searching an extensive index of treasure related magazines and found the following entry: TYPE TITLE/AUTHOR MG DATE PAGE KY ARCHAEOLOGY FOUND: ANCIENT HEBREW COINS/HENSON LT JAN 80 31 LT means Lost Treasure Magazine. Do you know anything about this reported find? I have not tried to get ahold of the article, so do not know the nature of the find. I wonder if the archaeologist consdiered them original, or relocated. BTW, I was raised in Kentucky! Do you think I am a Jaredite? :-) Perry _ Find and compare great deals on Broadband access at the MSN High-Speed Marketplace. http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200360ave/direct/01/ -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
Yes, I've been thinking about that since I first responded last night. You're correct; lust is sin, therefore Jesus did not lust. He, like us, was tempted to lust (for a woman, food, drink, whatever), but He did not give in to that temptation, therefore he did not lust nor did He sin. vincent j. fulton On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 20:51:58 -0800 (PST) Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: That one is a problem cause if he saw a woman and lusted, it would be sin. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I dunno. Perhaps the lust is the temptation? On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 13:54:12 -0800 (PST) Kevin Deegan writes: So how do you get tempted to lust? How does a man get tempted to lust? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 10:53:23 -0800 (PST) Kevin Deegan writes: ... He suffered temptations of the flesh. So then he lusted like you do? No, He was tempted to lust, but He did not lust, because giving in to the temptation to lust is sin, but He did not sin. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. Do you Yahoo!? Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. Do you Yahoo!? Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
You're using the convention of using terms like mankind to mean only men to the exclusion of women. By that logic, the scriptures which promise we will all be sons of God must exclude women. No, I don't believe you're correct. On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 08:29:49 -0500 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Judy Taylor writes: Saying he had a fallen nature is tantamount to saying he had a sin nature whether or not he sinned. The reason we are born fallen is because of the iniquity of the fathers our inheritance from the first Adam on. Yes. It comes down through the father Where do you find that in scripture? JT: All of the following relate to generational sin: Exodus 20:5 God is jealous visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon children to 3rd 4th generation Exodus 34:7 God will by no means clear the guilty visiting the iniquity of the fathers. Lev 26:39 ...and also in the iniquities of their fathers shall they pine away with them... Num 14:33 ...Your sons shall bear your whoredoms until your carcasses be wasted in the wilderness... Job 21:19 ... God layeth up his iniquity for his children Isa 14:21 ... for the iniquity of their fathers that they do not rise nor possess the land... Jer 32:18 ...and repay the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children... This can also be traced in families, for example Cain the first murderer; God judged him but didn't kill him and so Lamech who was either grandson or ggrandson also killed a man. God gives a measure of time for men to repent and when this does not happen eventually he wipes out the whole line as he has done with Ahab and others.. Jeremiah 31 and Ezekiel 18 both say the same thing and that is - that this progression can stop IF the man is righteous. But Romans 3:10 tells us that there is none righteous, no not one. That is, with the exception of Jesus; Grace and Peace, judy -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Old hebrew Coins found in Kentucky?
Blaine, We have discussed on the group the fact that there is no archaeological evidence of early Hebrew civilizations in the Americas. However, I was searching an extensive index of treasure related magazines and found the following entry: TYPE TITLE/AUTHOR MG DATE PAGE KY ARCHAEOLOGY FOUND: ANCIENT HEBREW COINS/HENSON LT JAN 80 31 LT means Lost Treasure Magazine. Do you know anything about this reported find? I have not tried to get ahold of the article, so do not know the nature of the find. I wonder if the archaeologist consdiered them original, or relocated. BTW, I was raised in Kentucky! Do you think I am a Jaredite? :-) Perry I was also raised in Kentucky and can verify that there was an old Hebrew living there at the time. Mystery solved! Terry -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Old hebrew Coins found in Kentucky?
Terry wrote: I was also raised in Kentucky and can verify that there was an old Hebrew living there at the time. Mystery solved! But, Terry, the coin is from the second century. I doubt that you were there back then...but I could be mistaken! VBG I found an article that says a farmer in Clay, Kentucky, found the coin in his pig pen in 1952. Now, that makes me wonder how those two, the Hebrew coin and the pig pen, found one another. I'll bet that would make an interesting story! http://www.econ.ohio-state.edu/jhm/arch/barkokhb.htm. Perry _ Store more e-mails with MSN Hotmail Extra Storage 4 plans to choose from! http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/ -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Graven images
Blaine: Noone ever said sacred underwear would be a protection in the same sense as being righteous--But, I don't understand why you are even concerned about the underwear I wear, Kevin? Are you just trying to be offensive, obnoxious, or what? The following is conjecture only, but you might want to read it for what it is worth. When Ham uncovered the nakedness of his father, Noah, Noah laid a curse on him that was to be passed on to each succeeding generation. This seems like some kind of major over-reaction, does it not? If Ham had simply gone into Noah's tent and pulled the bed covers off him, and thus exposed his naked body, I see no reason why such an incidental act would elicit a curse upon Ham. Men see each other all the time nowadays, in dressing rooms, restrooms, etc., and it is no big deal. I doubt it was much different then, especially considering they had been in such close quarters together in the Ark for such a long time. In the Book of Jasher, it suggests Ham not only uncovered the old Patriarch's nakedness, but stolehis underwear!! Apparently, this underwear had been passed down to Noah from father to son beginning with Adam, and was nothing more nor less than the original coat of skins made for Adam by the Lord to cover his nakedness. As such, this underwear was a much coveted item, one which Noah may have wanted one of his other sons to inherit, as a symbol of the birthright to be given to the chosen son, in much the same manner as Jacob was chosen over Esau, and Isaac was chosen over Ishmael. In this case the underwear were probablyintended for Shem, whom many believe was AKA Melchizedek, or King of Salem. But Ham was jealous, so when he found opportunity to do so, he stole these underwear, and passed them on to his eldest son Cush, who in turn passed them to Nimrod, hisfavorite son,who was the king who built the tower of Babel. The Book of Jasher suggests that Esau obtained this undergarment when he killed Nimrod, and thus returned the garment to the birthright family--as Esau was a son of Isaac and a grandson of Abraham. When Esau sold his birthright to Jacob for a bowl of soup, he relinquished these sacred garments to Jacob--who then became the father of the covenant race.One well known Mormon writer has even suggested this garment was the coat of many colors given to Joseph--the term "coatof many colors" being a mistranslation of words that meant a garment that still had the smell of the flowers of the Garden of Edenupon it. As I said, this is all conjecture. Not doctrine. But it makes sense to a Mormon, since the undergarment worn by Mormons represent the coat of skins given to Adam by the Lord in the Garden of Eden, to cover his nakedness. This would also suggest a secondary reason for wearing the garment--to symbolize oneself as being a member of the birthright covenant people--although I don't recall any authority in the church stating this. Mormons do consider themselves to be mostly of the tribe of Ephraim, son of Joseph, however, and certainly Joseph was Jacob's favorite son, and the one he considered to be the birthright son. - From: Kevin Deegan To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2004 7:38 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Graven images Paul the Apostle tells us to Put on the whole armour of God... Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Does the LDS version add "last but not least put on your Royal Underwear" If the Temple garments really are an "outward _expression_ of an inward covenant" Why not wear them on the outside? Where does the Bible tell us about Holy Underwear? Blaine Borrowman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blaine: LOL What magical powers? - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 27, 2004 5:09 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Graven images Blaine: the problem with graven images has always been that sooner orlater, people get (got) around to worshipping them and ascribing livingqualities and magical powers to them. Does that mean you do not accept the magical powers ascribed to LDS undergarments? Blaine Borrowman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blaine: the problem with graven images has always been that sooner orlater, people get (got) around to worshipping them and ascribing livingqualities and magical powers to them. This gave the priests of such imagespower to make up new rules,
[TruthTalk] Graven images
From: "Blaine Borrowman" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Blaine: Noone ever said sacred underwear would be a protection in the same sense as being righteous--But, I don't understand why you are even concerned about the underwear I wear, Kevin? Are you just trying to be offensive, obnoxious, or what? Judy: He may be wanting to make you think... What do they tell you that underwear is supposed to do for you? Blaine: When Ham uncovered the nakedness of his father, Noah, Noah laid a curse on him that was to be passed on to each succeeding generation. This seems like some kind of major over-reaction, does it not? If Ham had simply gone into Noah's tent and pulled the bed covers off him, and thus exposed his naked body, I see no reason why such an incidental act would elicit a curse upon Ham. Judy: Ham was not honoring and respecting his Father. He not only stood and took a good look himself rather than covering his Father, he went and got his brothers to have a look also. Noah wasn't being vengeful, he spoke prophetically. The problem wasn't a naked male body, the problem was with love and respect. Judy
Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
I think the problem is the way we think of Tempt. I believe it is more like a test. A test only shows what is already there. What was the true nature of Jesus? When I was a welder, there was a suite of tests that a weld would under go. If a weld failed in some applications it could be disasterous. The tests only showed the true nature and integrity, of the weld. You could not see the fault in a weld, it was on the inside. Sin comes from inside of us, sometimes we even have an inner struggle with sin. Jesuswas repulsed by sin because he was always God God is repulsed by sin. His testing revealed his true nature. For him toeven look at a womanin that certainway would be enough to be counted as sin. It all comes down to how you view Christ was he Impecable or not. All the cults see him as pecable, since he had to struggle work out his salvation. Just like they must struggle and attempt to impress a Holy God[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, I've been thinking about that since I first responded lastnight. You're correct; lust is sin, therefore Jesus did not lust. He,like us, was tempted to lust (for a woman, food, drink, whatever), but Hedid not give in to that temptation, therefore he did not lust nor did Hesin.vincent j. fultonOn Fri, 27 Feb 2004 20:51:58 -0800 (PST) Kevin Deegan<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>writes:That one is a problem cause if he saw a woman and lusted, it would besin.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I dunno. Perhaps the lust is the temptation?On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 13:54:12 -0800 (PST) Kevin Deeganwrites:So how do you get tempted to lust?How does a man get tempted to lust?[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 10:53:23 -0800 (PST) Kevin Deeganwrites: ... He suffered temptations of the flesh. So then he lusted like you do?No, He was tempted to lust, but He did not lust, because giving into the temptation to lust is sin, but He did not sin.--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you mayknow how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have afriend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.Do you Yahoo!?Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you mayknow how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have afriend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.Do you Yahoo!?Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. Do you Yahoo!? Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail
Re: [TruthTalk] Old hebrew Coins found in Kentucky?
How about the Kinderhook plates that Jo got fooled into translating a forged set of plates? How does a Prophet, Seer Revelator get fool by a forgery made by some 19th century Farmers? http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/kinderhookplates.htmCharles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blaine,We have discussed on the group the fact that there is no archaeological evidence of early Hebrew civilizations in the Americas. However, I was searching an extensive index of treasure related magazines and found the following entry:TYPE TITLE/AUTHOR MG DATE PAGEKY ARCHAEOLOGY FOUND: ANCIENT HEBREW COINS/HENSON LT JAN 80 31"LT" means "Lost Treasure Magazine".. Do you know anything about this reported find? I have not tried to get ahold of the article, so do not know the nature of the find. I wonder if the archaeologist consdiered them original, or relocated.BTW, I was raised in Kentucky! Do you think I am a Jaredite? :-)Perry_Find and compare great deals on Broadband access at the MSN High-Speed Marketplace. http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200360ave/direct/01/--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. Do you Yahoo!? Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail
Re: [TruthTalk] Graven images
How could anyone believe in magic garments? http://www.voy.com/62752/3/3196.html This is JUST ONE Account of the magic Talisman qualities, see more on the link: Jo:I can't recall what happened to cause the accident but an accident happened and the chopper went down. His co-pilot died. Our friend sustained 2 broken legs, several other injuries that were not life threatening and he was burned over a large percentage of his body. Jo: Here's where the religion will conquer the science. This is a devout Latter-day Saint and having been endowed, wears the temple garment. Anyone who knows as much as you do about our religion knows that we believe it to be a protector so long as the wearer remains faithful to their covenants. This brother was burned so badly over such a large part of his body except where his temple garments were. Explain to me, Larry, how that is? How come you did not know this Blaine? Or are you trying to fool us again? http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon143.htm Irealized that Mormonism was phony many years ago, but like you I was troubled with occasional guilt for the first couple of years. A good example is how I first felt about not wearing temple garments. All my life as a TBM kid I had heard about how the temple garments provide physical and other protection based on our temple covenants. Anecdotes are circulated among TBMs about the miraculous protective powers of the temple garments. So I was really a bit worried when I stopped wearing the garments, even though reason told me that Mormon temple worship was the most ridiculous, transparently false system of worship imaginable. I still had that voice programmed into my head by Mormonism that was telling me that I would now be unprotected and on my own without the garmies. The voice of Mormonism told me that God wouldn't do anything to protect me after showing such disrespect for his sacred garmies. I heard it myself from the owner of the marriot hotel chain:TheApril 1996 episode of "60 Minutes," San Francisco 49er quarterback Steve Young told interviewer Mike Wallace that he chose not to wear his garments when on the playing field. Some might think that in playing such a dangerous position Mr. Young would best be served by putting them on (especially in light of his injury-plagued 1996 season). Bill Marriott, on the other hand, told Mike Wallace that the garments do in fact offer protection. The owner of the Marriott hotel chain then related a fantastic story how, when he was in a fiery boating accident, his garments protected him from being burned. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=3900764634category=11506 get your own magic underwear hereBlaine Borrowman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blaine: Noone ever said sacred underwear would be a protection in the same sense as being righteous--But, I don't understand why you are even concerned about the underwear I wear, Kevin? Are you just trying to be offensive, obnoxious, or what? The following is conjecture only, but you might want to read it for what it is worth. When Ham uncovered the nakedness of his father, Noah, Noah laid a curse on him that was to be passed on to each succeeding generation. This seems like some kind of major over-reaction, does it not? If Ham had simply gone into Noah's tent and pulled the bed covers off him, and thus exposed his naked body, I see no reason why such an incidental act would elicit a curse upon Ham. Men see each other all the time nowadays, in dressing rooms, restrooms, etc., and it is no big deal. I doubt it was much different then, especially considering they had been in such close quarters together in the Ark for such a long time. In the Book of Jasher, it suggests Ham not only uncovered the old Patriarch's nakedness, but stolehis underwear!! Apparently, this underwear had been passed down to Noah from father to son beginning with Adam, and was nothing more nor less than the original coat of skins made for Adam by the Lord to cover his nakedness. As such, this underwear was a much coveted item, one which Noah may have wanted one of his other sons to inherit, as a symbol of the birthright to be given to the chosen son, in much the same manner as Jacob was chosen over Esau, and Isaac was chosen over Ishmael. In this case the underwear were probablyintended for Shem, whom many believe was AKA Melchizedek, or King of Salem. But Ham was jealous, so when he found opportunity to do so, he stole these underwear, and passed them on to his eldest son Cush, who in turn passed them to Nimrod, hisfavorite son,who was the king who built the tower of Babel. The Book of Jasher suggests that Esau obtained this undergarment when he killed Nimrod, and thus returned the garment to the birthright family--as Esau was a son of Isaac and a grandson of Abraham. When Esau sold his birthright to Jacob for a bowl of soup, he relinquished these sacred garments to Jacob--who then became the father of the covenant race.One well known Mormon writer has even
Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 16:50:17 -0800 (PST) Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It all comes down to how you view Christ was he Impecable or not. All the cults see him as pecable, since he had to struggle work out his salvation. Just like they must struggle and attempt to impress a Holy God I don't believe that Jesus had to struggle to avoid sin. I do believe that His mortal body had that fallen nature, but I believe He had no problem or difficulty ignoring his body's fallen nature. When He was hungry or thirsty or whatever, He did not sin by lusting as we do. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Graven images
On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 17:19:36 -0800 (PST) Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Anecdotes are circulated among TBMs about the miraculous protective powers of the temple garments. That kinda reminds me of when I was young. I had the misfortune to have been born into the roman catholic denomination, so I went to school with the nuns. I remember being surprised and amused when one of the nuns told us in all seriousness that, when she was a little girl, she held a rosary up to an approaching tornado and made is swerve around her. They also say that wearing the scapular gives some protection, though I don't remember the details of that. vincent j. fulton -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Kingdom Come
BLAINE Your report made it seem as if Mormons are under a great deal of pressure to pay their annual 10% tithe. I don't think there is much pressure, other than that of individual conscience, to pay tithes or other contributions. Again I find info that is directly contrary to what you say. I am not sure I can trust you anymore. Here are the questions from the Temple reommend: Five of the questions are about the CHURCH! Do you believe and obey the CHURCH. Maybe one is arguably about God. Why so much Church? Why not call it a CHURCH recommend? Why do you have to PAY a FULL TITHE to be a GOOD CHURCH member? http://www.lds-mormon.com/veilworker/recommend.shtml 1. Do you believe in God, the Eternal Father, in his Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost; and do you have a firm testimony of the restored gospel?2. Do you sustain the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the prophet, seer, and revelator; and do you recognize him as the only person on the earth authorized to exercise all priesthood keys?3. Do you sustain the other General Authorities and the local authorities of the Church?4. Do you live the law of chastity?5. Is there anything in your conduct relating to members of your family that is not in harmony with the teachings of the Church?6. Do you affiliate with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or do you sympathize with the precepts of any such group or individual?7. Do you earnestly strive to do your duty in the Church; to attend your sacrament, priesthood, and other meetings; and to obey the rules, laws, and commandments of the gospel?8. Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen?9. Are you a full-tithe payer?10. Do you keep the Word of Wisdom?11. Have you ever been divorced or are you now separated from your spouse under order of a civil court? If yes, (a) - Are you current in your support payments and other financial obligations for family members, as specified by court order or in other written, binding commitments? (b) Were there any circumstances of transgression in connectionwith your divorce or separation that have not been previously resolved with your bishop?12. If you have received your temple endowment -- (a) Do you keep all the covenants that you made in the temple? (b) Do you wear the authorized garments both day and night?13. Has there been any sin or misdeed in your life that should have been resolved with priesthood authorities but has not?14. Do you consider yourself worthy in every way to enter the temple and participate in temple ordinances? out of 14 questions; 1 has to do with God 7have to do with CHURCH and CHURCH AUTHORITY 6have to do with Good works My calculations work out thus the LDS faith is 7% God43% good works 50% CHURCH Blaine Borrowman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is my response to the article, Kingdom Come, as printed in the November 8, 1997 issue of TIME Magazine. Your article on the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was very well done. I have been a Mormon all my life, attending meetings, paying tithes and offerings, teaching children and adults in church classes, etc. We Mormons believe that the sacrifice of worldly goods is an important principle, requiring faith in God as it does, but we also believe in freedom to exercise moral agency--which means, as far as monetary contributions are concerned, each member is free to pay or not. Your report made it seem as if Mormons are under a great deal of pressure to pay their annual 10% tithe. I don't think there is much pressure, other than that of individual conscience, to pay tithes or other contributions. BLAINE BORROWMAN Midvale, Utah Do you Yahoo!? Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail
Re: [TruthTalk] Kingdom Come
You mean there are how many MILLIONS of Mormons earning multiple thousands a year. Paying TITHES on that and you have no accounting of where the money goes? I wonder what that would work out to? No FINANCIAL Responsibility, WOW! Doesn't the CORPORATION of the Church of J C L D S own significant business interests also? Are there any other Churches that do that? I can only think of the ROMAN CATholic church.No wonder they can throw away 30 million on the Main Street plaza Blaine Borrowman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blaine: The following is a response to the Kingdom Come article, written by a member of the Church in a position to know: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a global faith with a message that appeals to those who seek an anchor in a world of shifting values. However, leaders of the church were disappointed that you created a false impression of the church's income and wealth. Your estimates were greatly exaggerated. The church's income is not nearly what was reported. Also the church's assets are primarily money-consuming assets and not money-producing.BRUCE L. OLSEN, Managing Director Public Affairs Department The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Salt Lake City, Utah Do you Yahoo!? Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail
Re: [TruthTalk] Graven images
DAVEH: Kevin.From what you wrote below, I can only assume you do not understand what our religious garments symbolize. Does CEA suggest they (the garments) have magical powers? May I suggest you read it again and ponder what he is trying to convey. Kevin Deegan wrote: Blaine: LOL What magical powers? Yes, I too see it as ridiculous. Unbelievably a Church Authority said this. What a giggle. Elder Carlos E. Asay Emeritus Member of the First Quorum of the Seventy It is written that "the white garment symbolizes purity and helps assure modesty, respect for the attributes of God, and, to the degree it is honored, a token of what Paul regarded as taking upon one the whole armor of God (Eph. 6:13; cf. DC 27:15) Garments bear several simple marks of orientation toward the gospel principles of obedience, truth, life, and discipleship in Christ.'' Much, much more could be said about the war for the souls of men and the whole armor of God. The war on the earth began in the days of Adam, continued down through the years with Moses. and the children of Israel, and still rages in a dispensation known as the fulness of times a dispensation ushered in by the revelations received through the Prophet Joseph Smith. Hence, the issue of protective coverings enabling us to withstand the fiery darts of Satan will continue to be of great significance. We must put on the armor of God spoken of by the Apostle Paul and reiterated in a modern revelation (see DC 27:15-18). We must also "put on the armor of righteousness" (2 Ne. 1:23) symbolized by the temple garment. Otherwise, we may lose the war and perish. The heavy armor worn by soldiers of a former day, including helmets, shields, and breastplates, determined the outcome of some battles. However, the real battles of life in our modern day will be won by those who are clad in a spiritual armoran armor consisting of faith in God, faith in self, faith in one's cause, and faith in one's leaders. The piece of armor called the temple garment not only provides the comfort and warmth of a cloth covering, it also strengthens the wearer to resist temptation, fend off evil influences, and stand firmly for the right.In a letter to priesthood leaders dated 10 October 1988, the First Presidency saidThis has been interpreted to mean that it is worn as underclothing both day and night. This sacred covenant is between the member and the Lord. Members should seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit to answer for themselves any personal questions about the wearing of the garment The promise of protection and blessings is conditioned upon worthiness and faithfulness in keeping the covenant. So the Amor of the Lord is not good enough. Like doubting Thomas LDS faith is so miniscule that they need a Rabbits foot, a garment they can TOUCH and SEE.Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.Jesus said to become as little children, he did not mean a juvinille faith. Believing in absurd doctrines of men such as this. he wants you to become CONVERTED! MT 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out Blaine Borrowman [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Blaine: LOL What magical powers? - Original Message - From:Kevin Deegan To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 27, 2004 5:09 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Graven images Blaine: the problem with graven images has always been that sooner or later, people get (got) around to worshipping them and ascribing living qualities and magical powers to them.Does that mean you do not accept the magical powers ascribed to LDS undergarments? Blaine Borrowman [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Blaine: the problem with graven images has always been that sooner or later, people get (got) around to worshipping them and ascribing living qualities and magical powers to them. This gave the priests of such images power to make up new rules, and doctrines such as sacrificing children, committing whoredomes, etc., which was the real problem, more than the image itself. Moroni is no threat along these lines, because a) we do not ascribe living or magical powers to the statues, and b) we do not worship them. The statues are simply there to remind us synbolically that the scripture in the Book of Revelations concerning "another angel" flying in the midst of heaven having the everlasting gospel to preach to all nations, kindreds, tongues and people was fulfilled when Moroni (the angel) appeared to Joseph Smith a number of times, and event! ually committed to him the plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated. The BoM is believed to contain the everlasting gospel in its original purity, as believed in and practiced by the early saints. By the way, what about the crosses most Christian Churches have?
[TruthTalk] The passion of Christ
Went to the movies today for the first time in about twenty-five years. My wife and I saw "The passion of Christ". The first few minutes were a turn off because I had understood that the script was true to the Gospels, and right away it was evident that several artistic liberties had been taken. As Jesus is praying in the garden and his companions are sleeping, the camera pans to Jesus praying, then pans toward the sky and shows a full moon. This happens twice in short order, Jesus praying while looking toward the full moon, making me wonder how the full moon figured in the story. As He finishes praying, a large snake crawls up to him and He stomps on it's head. At that point, I was ready to walk out, but I am glad I stayed. The arrest, trial and the cross followed in such graphic detail that it was overwhelming. It made me realize that what we can picture from skimming through ten minutes of reading the Bible or forty minutes of listening to a preacher could never give as stark a picture as that on the screen. At some point, watching the torture that Jesus endured, the thought came to me that "This is how much God hates sin" Rather than lower His standards for entrance into the Kingdom, He planned for His own Son to suffer so terribly. My next thought was that "This goes far beyond my definition of love" Only God could love that much and only God could make such a sacrifice." I came out of that movie with a new view. I now see sin more clearly than ever before, and the things that were once fun and exciting are now so ugly. The price He paid for the fun I had was way too high. The suffering was too much. None of usare worth it. See the movie. You will understand better than you have ever understood before. Terry
RE: [TruthTalk] The passion of Christ
Terry wrote: As He finishes praying, a large snake crawls up to him and He stomps on it's head. At that point, I was ready to walk out... I am sure this scene, although not in the Gospels, refers to God's chastisement of the serpent in Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. The seed in this verse refers to the Messiah. I don't plan to see it...I read the book. Perry _ Get fast, reliable access with MSN 9 Dial-up. Click here for Special Offer! http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/ -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] The passion of Christ
Thanks for sharing your perspective Terry, I've been hearing so much about this movie and presently have mixed feelings about it. Our daughter got tickets for our whole familyso I will be going next Saturday; I've readabout the making of the movie. Apparently Mel Gibson is a devout RC and he was influenced by a mystic nun in writing the script. They had latin mass on the set every day and claim that miraculous things took place while they were making the movie. The man who plays Jesus is also a devout RC who prays to Mary - he and his wife are involved with the Metagorje apparitions. I'm aware that God can and will use whatever is available to draw ppl. even what the devil means for evil God is able to turn and use for good;he once used the Rock Operas Jesus Christ Superstar and Godspell to get my attn. I just wonder whatall the violence on the screen is aboutwhen noone in our generation was there so they really don't know exactly how it was, exactlyhow Jesus reacted to the violenceand exactly how the main players acted. In Psalm 22 as well as two of the gospels it is written that the Roman soldiers cast lots for Jesus robe; I've heard it said that his robe was a one piece garment that was worth some moneybut whenI sawa photo from the movie showing Jesus carrying the cross in our local newspaper I wondered who wouldwant the tattered thing they had him wearing, let alone cast lots for it. So the main question I have has to do with the "graphic detail" are ppl being drawn and emotionally hyped by a figment of someone's imagination? Scripture teaches that he (Jesus) learned obedience by the things he suffered and I've always believed thathis suffering involved much more than the physical scourging. The worst of it which wasthe three hours of darkness when he endured the curse ofsin and momentary separation from the Father would be impossible to depict on the screen?I'm glad you thought it more than religious nonsense. I'll just have to wait and see Grace and Peace, Judy From: "Terry Clifton" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Went to the movies today for the first time in about twenty-five years. My wife and I saw "The passion of Christ". The first few minutes were a turn off because I had understood that the script was true to the Gospels, and right away it was evident that several artistic liberties had been taken. As Jesus is praying in the garden and his companions are sleeping, the camera pans to Jesus praying, then pans toward the sky and shows a full moon. This happens twice in short order, Jesus praying while looking toward the full moon, making me wonder how the full moon figured in the story. As He finishes praying, a large snake crawls up to him and He stomps on it's head. At that point, I was ready to walk out, but I am glad I stayed. The arrest, trial and the cross followed in such graphic detail that it was overwhelming. It made me realize that what we can picture from skimming through ten minutes of reading the Bible or forty minutes of listening to a preacher could never give as stark a picture as that on the screen. At some point, watching the torture that Jesus endured, the thought came to me that "This is how much God hates sin" Rather than lower His standards for entrance into the Kingdom, He planned for His own Son to suffer so terribly. My next thought was that "This goes far beyond my definition of love" Only God could love that much and only God could make such a sacrifice." I came out of that movie with a new view. I now see sin more clearly than ever before, and the things that were once fun and exciting are now so ugly. The price He paid for the fun I had was way too high. The suffering was too much. None of usare worth it. See the movie. You will understand better than you have ever understood before. Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] The passion of Christ
You cannot miss the catholic slant to this movie. Way too much Mary; no Joseph of Aramethea or Nicodemas. Ne veil in the temple being torn, or a few other things I would have shown, but still the best movie in town. I'm glad I went. You will be too. Terry rom: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2004 8:52 PM Subject: [TruthTalk] The passion of Christ Thanks for sharing your perspective Terry, I've been hearing so much about this movie and presently have mixed feelings about it. Our daughter got tickets for our whole familyso I will be going next Saturday; I've readabout the making of the movie. Apparently Mel Gibson is a devout RC and he was influenced by a mystic nun in writing the script. They had latin mass on the set every day and claim that miraculous things took place while they were making the movie. The man who plays Jesus is also a devout RC who prays to Mary - he and his wife are involved with the Metagorje apparitions.
Re: [TruthTalk] The passion of Christ
- Original Message - From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] I am sure this scene, although not in the Gospels, refers to God's chastisement of the serpent in Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. The seed in this verse refers to the Messiah. I don't plan to see it...I read the book. Perry = Yeah, not much doubt about where the snake came from. I've read the book a couple of times myself. Still benefitted from looking at the same thing through someone else's eyes. That's prob'ly why I stay on TT. Terry -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Old hebrew Coins found in Kentucky?
Over the years, I've read various books, magazine articles, etc. which report various bits of evidence that the Chinese, the Phoenecians, the Egyptians, the Carthaginians, the Vikings, the Celts, etc. visited or even set up trading posts in the Americas earlier than 2000 years ago. Finding a Hebrew coin in America is interesting, but not precedent-setting. vince On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 12:43:12 -0800 Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Terry wrote: I was also raised in Kentucky and can verify that there was an old Hebrew living there at the time. Mystery solved! But, Terry, the coin is from the second century. I doubt that you were there back then...but I could be mistaken! VBG I found an article that says a farmer in Clay, Kentucky, found the coin in his pig pen in 1952. Now, that makes me wonder how those two, the Hebrew coin and the pig pen, found one another. I'll bet that would make an interesting story! http://www.econ.ohio-state.edu/jhm/arch/barkokhb.htm. Perry _ Store more e-mails with MSN Hotmail Extra Storage 4 plans to choose from! http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/ -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Old hebrew Coins found in Kentucky?
In the article I posted, it says the coin was a reproduction of a real Hebrew coin, probably manufactured and given away sometime in the early 20th c. These coins have been found in areas in Tennessee, Kentucky, and N. Carolina, From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Old hebrew Coins found in Kentucky? Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 23:39:16 -0500 Over the years, I've read various books, magazine articles, etc. which report various bits of evidence that the Chinese, the Phoenecians, the Egyptians, the Carthaginians, the Vikings, the Celts, etc. visited or even set up trading posts in the Americas earlier than 2000 years ago. Finding a Hebrew coin in America is interesting, but not precedent-setting. vince On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 12:43:12 -0800 Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Terry wrote: I was also raised in Kentucky and can verify that there was an old Hebrew living there at the time. Mystery solved! But, Terry, the coin is from the second century. I doubt that you were there back then...but I could be mistaken! VBG I found an article that says a farmer in Clay, Kentucky, found the coin in his pig pen in 1952. Now, that makes me wonder how those two, the Hebrew coin and the pig pen, found one another. I'll bet that would make an interesting story! http://www.econ.ohio-state.edu/jhm/arch/barkokhb.htm. Perry _ Store more e-mails with MSN Hotmail Extra Storage 4 plans to choose from! http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/ -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. _ Find and compare great deals on Broadband access at the MSN High-Speed Marketplace. http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200360ave/direct/01/ -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
