[tg-trunk] Re: Easy install is installing a beta again!
On 9/24/08, Mark Ramm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well if the beta releases are not put in PyPi easy_install won't be able to install them, so it is possible. Not sufficient. PyPi references our egg page so that binary eggs can be autodownloaded. This would means hosting TG egg out of the egg page... hence the discussion we have ATM for a better EggBasket that would handle freezed sets... Florent. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups TurboGears Trunk group. To post to this group, send email to turbogears-trunk@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/turbogears-trunk?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[tg-trunk] Re: Easy install is installing a beta again!
Mark Ramm schrieb: On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 1:09 AM, Daniel Fetchinson Nevertheless, if technically possible, I agree that easy_install should only install stable releases. If it is technically not possible I of course accept that and will use tgsetup.py Well if the beta releases are not put in PyPi easy_install won't be able to install them, so it is possible. Not sure what Florent and Chris think about keeping beta's out of pypi. Unfortunately that won't help. The TG PyPI entry links to the TG download page at http://www.turbogears.org/download/filelist.html, where the TurboGears 1.1b1 is also available and easy_install will happily install it. We have to put up this egg somewhere and there is no guarantee that easy_install will not find it somehow (if we don't link it from *somewhere*, people will not find it too). Thats why using an install script that specifies the version to install explicitly is the only safe way, IMHO. Chris --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups TurboGears Trunk group. To post to this group, send email to turbogears-trunk@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/turbogears-trunk?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[tg-trunk] Re: Easy install is installing a beta again!
On Tue, 2008-23-09 at 07:52 +0200, Christopher Arndt wrote: iain duncan wrote: On Tue, 2008-23-09 at 02:06 +0200, Christopher Arndt wrote: No, easy_install is always installing the latest version, that's available on the download page linked on the projects PyPI page. Thatswhy the official and supported installation method is the one described on http://docs.turbogears.org/Install using the tgsetup.py script, which will install the correct current stable version. The last time we discussed this on here ( with Florent ) I'm pretty sure everyone agreed that easy_install should install the latest release, not the latest release candidate or beta. I haven't looked up the thread, but that is my recollection, possibly erroneous. Florent, do you recall? Maybe it should, but it doesn't. That's just not the way easy_install works by default. To easy_install a version with a higher number is newer and (if you don't specify a version contraint) will install it. This is exactly why we are providing the tgsetup.py script, because it specifies which version of TG to install internally (This also answers ChrisM's question). This is also why I always say that the tgsetup.py way is the official installation method for TG 1.0, because the easy_install way may break at any time. This behaviour of easy_install is not specific to TG or its packaging, easy_install does the same for all packages. For example if you currently do easy_install SQLAlchemy, you get a 0.5 release candidate not a 0.4 stable release. easy_install has no notion of stable or supported releases it only knows that release candidates are older than release versions with the same version number. The only way to work around this is: a) You tell easy_install which version you want (which makes it difficult to give consistent installation instructions to users). b) You point easy_install to a package index where only the stable packages (and all dependencies) are and tell it to not look somewhere else (i.e. at the PyPI). This is the reason why I wrote the tgsetupng.py script [1] [2] and EggBasket [3]. IMHO having it install a non release is really weird. 1.1b1 *is* a release, it's just not a stable one, but easy_install doesn't care. I as a user would always expect easy_install to give me something known good and expect to have to ask specifically for a beta. Unfortunately that expectation doesn't match reality. Now I will defer to those in charge of course, but I really believe this is a case of bad packaging and does not contribute to our reputation in the marketing department. I'd like to humbly request that this be brought up on the main list to see what people actually are expecting. As explained, this is not a packaging issue, it's an issue of how to use easy_install correctly and how to provide the right package index structure for it. I have written about the issues with easy_install several times on this and the main TG mailing list, please search the archives if you want to know more. Chris [1] http://trac.turbogears.org/ticket/1785 [2] http://trac.turbogears.org/browser/projects/tgsetupng/trunk [3] http://pypi.python.org/pypi/EggBasket Okey dokey, thanks for the explanation Chris. I got the wrong impression from the way the previous discussion on this petered out. Iain --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups TurboGears Trunk group. To post to this group, send email to turbogears-trunk@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/turbogears-trunk?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[tg-trunk] Re: Easy install is installing a beta again!
On Tuesday 23 September 2008 09:11:32 Florent Aide wrote: On 9/23/08, iain duncan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Okey dokey, thanks for the explanation Chris. I got the wrong impression from the way the previous discussion on this petered out. I arrive after the discussion here. Nice reading :) Chris pretty much explained the things... As I said last time I'm OK with your way of seeing things but unfortunately it does not depend only on me. At the moment we have set-up an egg basket on the new server and we now need to define some release procedure on how to put all the stable versions in a separate env to make sure we can provide you with a reliable way to install a known stable version (or isolate an beta release). But in all those cases we still need some help on the eggbasket front. Diez and others are working on enhancements to help use eggbasket as more than just a pypi clone so that we can host freezed sets of dependencies for a release, but this is not yet reality. I am working on this, yes, and if I get to manage to create TG1.0 SA-tests running, I will soon release a version that allows the frozen versions-thingy. Shouldn't be much more than a couple of weeks, as we at my company then will start relying on the feature ourselves (which means working on company-time on it:)) Diez --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups TurboGears Trunk group. To post to this group, send email to turbogears-trunk@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/turbogears-trunk?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[tg-trunk] Re: Easy install is installing a beta again!
Chris Miles wrote: On 23/09/2008, at 10:06 AM, Christopher Arndt wrote: Thatswhy the official and supported installation method is the one described on http://docs.turbogears.org/Install using the tgsetup.py script, which will install the correct current stable version. I don't agree with this decision. I never use tgsetup.py (I forgot it existed TBH) That's hardly our fault, isn't it? ;) The main TG website links directly to the official install instructions that tell you to use tgsetup.py. The mentioning of easy_install on the main install page only shows how to use easy_install to install a specific version of TG. Some of the system-specific install instructions on other pages mention easy_install as an alternative (e.g. InstallUbuntu). I'm currently checking if the commands given there need to be corrected to include the version number. I anybody finds an incorrect easy_install command in the docs somewhere, please let me know. Besides, a plain easy_install TurboGears almost never worked reliably, because this doesn't install any extra requirements and may or may not find the binary eggs we provide on turbogears.org. and the reason is that I distribute and deploy my TG projects as eggs. The guys deploying the apps are instructed that all they need to do is easy_install the application eggs and the dependency requirements will install TurboGears/etc if necessary. My assumption is that setuptools will find the latest stable version of 1.0.x from pypi, but as you say this is incorrect. This should be made clear, as I (and others in the same position) will need to make sure we define the TG dependencies as turbogears 1.1a to ensure 1.0.x is used, until such a time as we've been able to test and verify 1.1 compatibility. That's a good point and I will update http://docs.turbogears.org/1.0/DeployWithAnEgg accordingly. If you (or someone else) wants to provide a patch for the doc, I'll be happy to use it. We might also want to think about whether we should change the 1.0 quickstart templates to to put install_requires = ['TurboGears =1.0.X, 1.1b1'] in the setup.py by default. I don't really understand why tgsetup.py should behave differently than easy_install turbogears. I thought tgsetup.py was simply a helper script for users unfamiliar with setuptools/etc to make their life easier. I would expect easy_install to be the standard installation method, given that TG deployment is based around setuptools/eggs. I already answered this point in my reply to Iain's post. Chris --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups TurboGears Trunk group. To post to this group, send email to turbogears-trunk@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/turbogears-trunk?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[tg-trunk] Re: Easy install is installing a beta again!
Christopher Arndt wrote: Chris Miles wrote: My assumption is that setuptools will find the latest stable version of 1.0.x from pypi, but as you say this is incorrect. This should be made clear, as I (and others in the same position) will need to make sure we define the TG dependencies as turbogears 1.1a to ensure 1.0.x is used, until such a time as we've been able to test and verify 1.1 compatibility. That's a good point and I will update http://docs.turbogears.org/1.0/DeployWithAnEgg accordingly. Done. Chris --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups TurboGears Trunk group. To post to this group, send email to turbogears-trunk@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/turbogears-trunk?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[tg-trunk] Re: Easy install is installing a beta again!
On 24/09/2008, at 12:00 AM, Christopher Arndt wrote: Chris Miles wrote: On 23/09/2008, at 10:06 AM, Christopher Arndt wrote: Thatswhy the official and supported installation method is the one described on http://docs.turbogears.org/Install using the tgsetup.py script, which will install the correct current stable version. I don't agree with this decision. I never use tgsetup.py (I forgot it existed TBH) That's hardly our fault, isn't it? ;) Not at all :-) However, I doubt I'd be the only one that naturally assumes that I can install upgrade TurboGears (and applications dependent on TG) using the standard easy_install method. We just need to make sure that the documentation points out the things to consider when using easy_install instead of the recommended tgsetup.py. And you've already starting doing that on the DeployWithAnEgg page. The main TG website links directly to the official install instructions that tell you to use tgsetup.py. The mentioning of easy_install on the main install page only shows how to use easy_install to install a specific version of TG. Fair enough. I'm sure I originally used tgsetup.py to install TurboGears, a few years back when first learning it. Since then, I forgot it existed as easy_install always worked fine for me and felt like the more natural way to install an egg-packaged framework. We might also want to think about whether we should change the 1.0 quickstart templates to to put install_requires = ['TurboGears =1.0.X, 1.1b1'] in the setup.py by default. +1. Explicit is always better in my book. Cheers Chris Miles --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups TurboGears Trunk group. To post to this group, send email to turbogears-trunk@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/turbogears-trunk?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[tg-trunk] Re: Easy install is installing a beta again!
On 23/09/2008, at 10:06 AM, Christopher Arndt wrote: iain duncan schrieb: Hey folks, dunno if this is intentional or not, but easy_install turbogears is now installing 1.1 beta. Shouldn't this default to 1.0.7? No, easy_install is always installing the latest version, that's available on the download page linked on the projects PyPI page. Thatswhy the official and supported installation method is the one described on http://docs.turbogears.org/Install using the tgsetup.py script, which will install the correct current stable version. I don't agree with this decision. I never use tgsetup.py (I forgot it existed TBH) and the reason is that I distribute and deploy my TG projects as eggs. The guys deploying the apps are instructed that all they need to do is easy_install the application eggs and the dependency requirements will install TurboGears/etc if necessary. My assumption is that setuptools will find the latest stable version of 1.0.x from pypi, but as you say this is incorrect. This should be made clear, as I (and others in the same position) will need to make sure we define the TG dependencies as turbogears 1.1a to ensure 1.0.x is used, until such a time as we've been able to test and verify 1.1 compatibility. I don't really understand why tgsetup.py should behave differently than easy_install turbogears. I thought tgsetup.py was simply a helper script for users unfamiliar with setuptools/etc to make their life easier. I would expect easy_install to be the standard installation method, given that TG deployment is based around setuptools/eggs. Cheers, Chris Miles --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups TurboGears Trunk group. To post to this group, send email to turbogears-trunk@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/turbogears-trunk?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[tg-trunk] Re: Easy install is installing a beta again!
On Tue, 2008-23-09 at 02:06 +0200, Christopher Arndt wrote: iain duncan schrieb: Hey folks, dunno if this is intentional or not, but easy_install turbogears is now installing 1.1 beta. Shouldn't this default to 1.0.7? No, easy_install is always installing the latest version, that's available on the download page linked on the projects PyPI page. Thatswhy the official and supported installation method is the one described on http://docs.turbogears.org/Install using the tgsetup.py script, which will install the correct current stable version. The last time we discussed this on here ( with Florent ) I'm pretty sure everyone agreed that easy_install should install the latest release, not the latest release candidate or beta. I haven't looked up the thread, but that is my recollection, possibly erroneous. Florent, do you recall? IMHO having it install a non release is really weird. I as a user would always expect easy_install to give me something known good and expect to have to ask specifically for a beta. Now I will defer to those in charge of course, but I really believe this is a case of bad packaging and does not contribute to our reputation in the marketing department. I'd like to humbly request that this be brought up on the main list to see what people actually are expecting. my two cents Iain --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups TurboGears Trunk group. To post to this group, send email to turbogears-trunk@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/turbogears-trunk?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[tg-trunk] Re: Easy install is installing a beta again!
On Mon, 2008-22-09 at 22:07 -0700, iain duncan wrote: On Tue, 2008-23-09 at 02:06 +0200, Christopher Arndt wrote: iain duncan schrieb: Hey folks, dunno if this is intentional or not, but easy_install turbogears is now installing 1.1 beta. Shouldn't this default to 1.0.7? No, easy_install is always installing the latest version, that's available on the download page linked on the projects PyPI page. Thatswhy the official and supported installation method is the one described on http://docs.turbogears.org/Install using the tgsetup.py script, which will install the correct current stable version. The last time we discussed this on here ( with Florent ) I'm pretty sure everyone agreed that easy_install should install the latest release, not the latest release candidate or beta. I haven't looked up the thread, but that is my recollection, possibly erroneous. Florent, do you recall? Here is the thread I was thinking of. It sounded to me like Florent was agreeing in principal, but maybe a policy change never actually happened. http://groups.google.ca/group/turbogears-trunk/browse_thread/thread/657354f25d642c26 Iain --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups TurboGears Trunk group. To post to this group, send email to turbogears-trunk@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/turbogears-trunk?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[tg-trunk] Re: Easy install is installing a beta again!
iain duncan wrote: On Tue, 2008-23-09 at 02:06 +0200, Christopher Arndt wrote: No, easy_install is always installing the latest version, that's available on the download page linked on the projects PyPI page. Thatswhy the official and supported installation method is the one described on http://docs.turbogears.org/Install using the tgsetup.py script, which will install the correct current stable version. The last time we discussed this on here ( with Florent ) I'm pretty sure everyone agreed that easy_install should install the latest release, not the latest release candidate or beta. I haven't looked up the thread, but that is my recollection, possibly erroneous. Florent, do you recall? Maybe it should, but it doesn't. That's just not the way easy_install works by default. To easy_install a version with a higher number is newer and (if you don't specify a version contraint) will install it. This is exactly why we are providing the tgsetup.py script, because it specifies which version of TG to install internally (This also answers ChrisM's question). This is also why I always say that the tgsetup.py way is the official installation method for TG 1.0, because the easy_install way may break at any time. This behaviour of easy_install is not specific to TG or its packaging, easy_install does the same for all packages. For example if you currently do easy_install SQLAlchemy, you get a 0.5 release candidate not a 0.4 stable release. easy_install has no notion of stable or supported releases it only knows that release candidates are older than release versions with the same version number. The only way to work around this is: a) You tell easy_install which version you want (which makes it difficult to give consistent installation instructions to users). b) You point easy_install to a package index where only the stable packages (and all dependencies) are and tell it to not look somewhere else (i.e. at the PyPI). This is the reason why I wrote the tgsetupng.py script [1] [2] and EggBasket [3]. IMHO having it install a non release is really weird. 1.1b1 *is* a release, it's just not a stable one, but easy_install doesn't care. I as a user would always expect easy_install to give me something known good and expect to have to ask specifically for a beta. Unfortunately that expectation doesn't match reality. Now I will defer to those in charge of course, but I really believe this is a case of bad packaging and does not contribute to our reputation in the marketing department. I'd like to humbly request that this be brought up on the main list to see what people actually are expecting. As explained, this is not a packaging issue, it's an issue of how to use easy_install correctly and how to provide the right package index structure for it. I have written about the issues with easy_install several times on this and the main TG mailing list, please search the archives if you want to know more. Chris [1] http://trac.turbogears.org/ticket/1785 [2] http://trac.turbogears.org/browser/projects/tgsetupng/trunk [3] http://pypi.python.org/pypi/EggBasket --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups TurboGears Trunk group. To post to this group, send email to turbogears-trunk@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/turbogears-trunk?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
