RE: Database decoupling (Was: Future of U2)
Robert -- I requested pet store data models from this group at one point and I have a good draft of a suggested pet store data model for pick. If/when you could use it for maverick, just ask and I'll figure out where I filed it. --dawn Dawn M. Wolthuis Tincat Group, Inc. www.tincat-group.com Take and give some delight today. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Robert Colquhoun Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 5:57 AM To: U2 Users Discussion List Subject: RE: Database decoupling (Was: Future of U2) Hi John, At 11:33 PM 19/04/2004, Jon Wells wrote: >Sounds a bit like the Coyote Web Server [ http://coyote.easyco.com/ ] This >functionality would be a great thing to add to the Maverick project. You can do this today via the basic compiler which can inherit(in a java/OO sense) functionality into your basic programs. You would need some glue code, perhaps around 100-200 lines and then each basic program would become a java servlet. ie With a suitable app server ie tomcat, websphere, weblogic, jrun, orion etc your application could connect to U2 as a data source or use one of the other database drivers much like java applications switch dbs by substituting the JDBC driver. I have been meaning to get Pet Store or similar going in maverick to demonstrate how this works. This doesnt solve what Mark wants though which i think is to build an app server completely inside a mv engine so that websphere/tomcat is not needed. - Robert -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
RE: Database decoupling (Was: Future of U2)
Hi John, At 11:33 PM 19/04/2004, Jon Wells wrote: Sounds a bit like the Coyote Web Server [ http://coyote.easyco.com/ ] This functionality would be a great thing to add to the Maverick project. You can do this today via the basic compiler which can inherit(in a java/OO sense) functionality into your basic programs. You would need some glue code, perhaps around 100-200 lines and then each basic program would become a java servlet. ie With a suitable app server ie tomcat, websphere, weblogic, jrun, orion etc your application could connect to U2 as a data source or use one of the other database drivers much like java applications switch dbs by substituting the JDBC driver. I have been meaning to get Pet Store or similar going in maverick to demonstrate how this works. This doesnt solve what Mark wants though which i think is to build an app server completely inside a mv engine so that websphere/tomcat is not needed. - Robert -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
RE: Database decoupling (Was: Future of U2)
Sounds a bit like the Coyote Web Server [ http://coyote.easyco.com/ ] This functionality would be a great thing to add to the Maverick project. At 07:41 AM 4/17/2004, you wrote: That's my point. In one sense I see what Will means. There are a lot of U2 shops out there that are happy as can be with what they have. However I've also had experience on several sites where the company has considered the U2 application a 'silo' application that is holding them back technology wise. Now, a lot of that can be resolved by throwing up Tomcat and UOJ and 'bam' - their old U2 app is suddenly capable of doing anything modern technology offers. So. It would be nice to do away with the necessity to add something like Tomcat. Don't you think? We've had some great recent additions to client type utilities in the form of callHTTP and the SOAP client. Now lets see U2 mature into a modern day application server. *---* Jon Wells Database Administrator Beloit College Information Services & Resources Beloit, Wisconsin 608-363-2290 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 608-363-2100 (fax) *---* -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
RE: Database decoupling (Was: Future of U2)
Yep - guilty as charged, we have a product that can help in terms of "web" technology, though the main focus of Viságe is really as an application development platform. The points that you have raised are (obviously) important but forward thinking ? C'mon, these are features that have been around for 20 years ! When was the last time that anyone here had a "new prospect" get excited about the idea of background processing ? Or drool at the thought of audit files ? Maybe things are different on that side of the Pacific, but my recent experience tells me that unless I can provide the "eye candy" that people EXPECT these days, new sales are harder to make every year. Obviously I understand your sentiment - we have a comprehensive green screen application ourselves, and like many in this group we have a "hard core" of users that LIKE the green screen, and think that we are wasting our time on all of this GUI stuff and they are right - for THEM ! But, NEW sales take a LOT of things for granted - audit files, background processing, and even GUI ! to name a few and so forward thinking for me now has to include taking steps to make sure we continue to make sales into the future :-) Ross Ferris Stamina Software Visage - an Evolution in Software Development >-Original Message- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On >Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Sent: Sunday, 18 April 2004 8:21 AM >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: Re: Database decoupling (Was: Future of U2) > >And of course it's not self-serving to state that a web presence is itself >necessary in order to be "forward thinking" . I mean since you >offer >a product that does that > Now to me, forward thinking might involve more robust use of log files, >audit files, transactions and rollback, background processing, process >management but then I'm just old school. >Will > >In a message dated 4/17/2004 6:05:29 AM Pacific Daylight Time, >[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > >> > Not saying all businesses are this way. But I'm saying I don't think >> >that is where most of the traditional multi-value market is focused. >> >> BUT, unless we help our customers get there - OR find new customers that >> WANT to get there, we (as a market) run the risk that OUR existing >customers >> will loose market share & be consumed by more forward thinking >competitors, >> which in turn may mean that we too are out of a career ! >> >> Ross Ferris >> Stamina Software >> Visage - an Evolution in Software Development > >-- >u2-users mailing list >[EMAIL PROTECTED] >http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users > > >--- >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.658 / Virus Database: 421 - Release Date: 9/04/2004 > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.658 / Virus Database: 421 - Release Date: 9/04/2004 -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: Database decoupling (Was: Future of U2)
And of course it's not self-serving to state that a web presence is itself necessary in order to be "forward thinking" . I mean since you offer a product that does that Now to me, forward thinking might involve more robust use of log files, audit files, transactions and rollback, background processing, process management but then I'm just old school. Will In a message dated 4/17/2004 6:05:29 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > Not saying all businesses are this way. But I'm saying I don't think > >that is where most of the traditional multi-value market is focused. > > BUT, unless we help our customers get there - OR find new customers that > WANT to get there, we (as a market) run the risk that OUR existing customers > will loose market share & be consumed by more forward thinking competitors, > which in turn may mean that we too are out of a career ! > > Ross Ferris > Stamina Software > Visage â an Evolution in Software Development -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
RE: Database decoupling (Was: Future of U2)
> Not saying all businesses are this way. But I'm saying I don't think >that is where most of the traditional multi-value market is focused. BUT, unless we help our customers get there - OR find new customers that WANT to get there, we (as a market) run the risk that OUR existing customers will loose market share & be consumed by more forward thinking competitors, which in turn may mean that we too are out of a career ! Ross Ferris Stamina Software Visage – an Evolution in Software Development >-Original Message- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On >Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Sent: Saturday, 17 April 2004 3:53 AM >To: U2 Users Discussion List >Subject: Re: Database decoupling (Was: Future of U2) > > I'm just not seeing a great demand for this sort of thing from the >majority 10 to 100 user businesses that typically utilize multi-value >products. I mean some of my clients, and myself are only just NOW playing >with Triggers and transaction sets. Most application are very business >oriented, and even getting them up and running with FTPing a product list >to a web page, or browsing documentation in HTML or PDF format is a major >leap forward. > Not saying all businesses are this way. But I'm saying I don't think >that is where most of the traditional multi-value market is focused. >Will > > >In a message dated 4/16/2004 1:09:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > >> Well no, not really. I was thinking more in the line of "New application >> development that would like to provide the ability to utilize modern >> Internet protocols". A web presence would be included in that - but was >> actually furthest from my mind. >> >> B2B interaction for example. Or even internal application integration. >Being >> able to publish web services etc. etc. >> >> >> >> -----Original Message- >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Sent: Friday, April 16, 2004 11:28 AM >> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Subject: Re: Database decoupling (Was: Future of U2) >> >> >> In a message dated 4/15/2004 4:37:24 AM Pacific Daylight Time, >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: >> >> >> > Without this ability, I see no reason why anyone would commence new >> > application development on the U2 platform. Since you will always >> > require another application server (Websphere, Tomcat, Bea, Jboss, >> > etc.) to talk to the U2 server, that would in-turn interact with the >> > database. >> > >> >> I'm sure Mark you mean "New application development that must have a web >> presence". Unless you feel that all application development must have a >web >> >> presence. >> Will >> -- > >-- >u2-users mailing list >[EMAIL PROTECTED] >http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users > > >--- >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.658 / Virus Database: 421 - Release Date: 9/04/2004 > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.658 / Virus Database: 421 - Release Date: 9/04/2004 -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
[ot] RE: Database decoupling (Was: Future of U2)
Perhaps you should check out our Viságe product :-) Give yourself a modern" visual drag & drop interface (ie: drag items from your UV dictionary definition & drop them on a form - inherit edits etc from dictionary, but you can override if necessary), that uses "internet technologies" (like HTTP for data transport, XML for data abstraction etc) and has features NOW that Microsoft are talking about adding to Visual Studio "next year" (integrated BI/Data warehouse capabilities leveraging SQL server capabilities - though Viságe.BIT will happily work with data from your U2 database) We've also taken the liberty of extending the mv model in a few areas (like supporting >100 levels of nesting, which will "map" every "real world" complex XML document I've seen, with room to grow!), and our active code reduction philosophy (powered by Snippet Technology) means that the amount of "real code" that has to be written for a complex system is minimal - and system systems can be codeless now ! Drop by www.stamina.com.au and follow the Visage links if you are interested, or drop us a line and we can send you out a test drive CD if you like. Ross Ferris Stamina Software Visage - an Evolution in Software Development >-Original Message- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On >Behalf Of Daly, Mark >Sent: Saturday, 17 April 2004 3:10 AM >To: 'U2 Users Discussion List' >Subject: RE: Database decoupling (Was: Future of U2) > >Well no, not really. I was thinking more in the line of "New application >development that would like to provide the ability to utilize modern >Internet protocols". A web presence would be included in that - but was >actually furthest from my mind. > >B2B interaction for example. Or even internal application integration. >Being >able to publish web services etc. etc. > > > >-Original Message----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Sent: Friday, April 16, 2004 11:28 AM >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: Re: Database decoupling (Was: Future of U2) > > >In a message dated 4/15/2004 4:37:24 AM Pacific Daylight Time, >[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > >> Without this ability, I see no reason why anyone would commence new >> application development on the U2 platform. Since you will always >> require another application server (Websphere, Tomcat, Bea, Jboss, >> etc.) to talk to the U2 server, that would in-turn interact with the >> database. >> > >I'm sure Mark you mean "New application development that must have a web >presence". Unless you feel that all application development must have a >web > >presence. >Will >-- >u2-users mailing list >[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users >-- >u2-users mailing list >[EMAIL PROTECTED] >http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users > > >--- >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.658 / Virus Database: 421 - Release Date: 9/04/2004 > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.658 / Virus Database: 421 - Release Date: 9/04/2004 -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
RE: Database decoupling (Was: Future of U2)
That's my point. In one sense I see what Will means. There are a lot of U2 shops out there that are happy as can be with what they have. However I've also had experience on several sites where the company has considered the U2 application a 'silo' application that is holding them back technology wise. Now, a lot of that can be resolved by throwing up Tomcat and UOJ and 'bam' - their old U2 app is suddenly capable of doing anything modern technology offers. So. It would be nice to do away with the necessity to add something like Tomcat. Don't you think? We've had some great recent additions to client type utilities in the form of callHTTP and the SOAP client. Now lets see U2 mature into a modern day application server. -Original Message- From: Dawn M. Wolthuis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 16, 2004 8:05 PM To: 'U2 Users Discussion List' Subject: RE: Database decoupling (Was: Future of U2) I wouldn't consider using 1NF data for new web services efforts if you don't have to -- why to mess around with mapping to and from flat tables? U2 is still old technology but in some ways it is closer to new technology than the brittle RDBMS solutions that are fading (maybe not fast, but SQL is now in the bucket with COBOL -- lots of it out there so it isn't going away, but not where I would put any new dollars). --dawn Dawn M. Wolthuis Tincat Group, Inc. www.tincat-group.com Take and give some delight today. -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
RE: Database decoupling (Was: Future of U2)
I wouldn't consider using 1NF data for new web services efforts if you don't have to -- why to mess around with mapping to and from flat tables? U2 is still old technology but in some ways it is closer to new technology than the brittle RDBMS solutions that are fading (maybe not fast, but SQL is now in the bucket with COBOL -- lots of it out there so it isn't going away, but not where I would put any new dollars). --dawn Dawn M. Wolthuis Tincat Group, Inc. www.tincat-group.com Take and give some delight today. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Daly, Mark Sent: Friday, April 16, 2004 12:10 PM To: 'U2 Users Discussion List' Subject: RE: Database decoupling (Was: Future of U2) Well no, not really. I was thinking more in the line of "New application development that would like to provide the ability to utilize modern Internet protocols". A web presence would be included in that - but was actually furthest from my mind. B2B interaction for example. Or even internal application integration. Being able to publish web services etc. etc. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 16, 2004 11:28 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Database decoupling (Was: Future of U2) In a message dated 4/15/2004 4:37:24 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Without this ability, I see no reason why anyone would commence new > application development on the U2 platform. Since you will always > require another application server (Websphere, Tomcat, Bea, Jboss, > etc.) to talk to the U2 server, that would in-turn interact with the > database. > I'm sure Mark you mean "New application development that must have a web presence". Unless you feel that all application development must have a web presence. Will -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: Database decoupling (Was: Future of U2)
I'm just not seeing a great demand for this sort of thing from the majority 10 to 100 user businesses that typically utilize multi-value products. I mean some of my clients, and myself are only just NOW playing with Triggers and transaction sets. Most application are very business oriented, and even getting them up and running with FTPing a product list to a web page, or browsing documentation in HTML or PDF format is a major leap forward. Not saying all businesses are this way. But I'm saying I don't think that is where most of the traditional multi-value market is focused. Will In a message dated 4/16/2004 1:09:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Well no, not really. I was thinking more in the line of "New application > development that would like to provide the ability to utilize modern > Internet protocols". A web presence would be included in that - but was > actually furthest from my mind. > > B2B interaction for example. Or even internal application integration. Being > able to publish web services etc. etc. > > > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, April 16, 2004 11:28 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: Database decoupling (Was: Future of U2) > > > In a message dated 4/15/2004 4:37:24 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > > > Without this ability, I see no reason why anyone would commence new > > application development on the U2 platform. Since you will always > > require another application server (Websphere, Tomcat, Bea, Jboss, > > etc.) to talk to the U2 server, that would in-turn interact with the > > database. > > > > I'm sure Mark you mean "New application development that must have a web > presence". Unless you feel that all application development must have a web > > presence. > Will > -- -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
RE: Database decoupling (Was: Future of U2)
Well no, not really. I was thinking more in the line of "New application development that would like to provide the ability to utilize modern Internet protocols". A web presence would be included in that - but was actually furthest from my mind. B2B interaction for example. Or even internal application integration. Being able to publish web services etc. etc. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 16, 2004 11:28 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Database decoupling (Was: Future of U2) In a message dated 4/15/2004 4:37:24 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Without this ability, I see no reason why anyone would commence new > application development on the U2 platform. Since you will always > require another application server (Websphere, Tomcat, Bea, Jboss, > etc.) to talk to the U2 server, that would in-turn interact with the > database. > I'm sure Mark you mean "New application development that must have a web presence". Unless you feel that all application development must have a web presence. Will -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
RE: Database decoupling (Was: Future of U2)
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 16, 2004 11:28 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Database decoupling (Was: Future of U2) In a message dated 4/15/2004 4:37:24 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Without this ability, I see no reason why anyone would commence new > application development on the U2 platform. Since you will always > require another application server (Websphere, Tomcat, Bea, Jboss, > etc.) to talk to the U2 server, that would in-turn interact with the > database. > I'm sure Mark you mean "New application development that must have a web presence". Unless you feel that all application development must have a web presence. Will -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: Database decoupling (Was: Future of U2)
In a message dated 4/15/2004 4:37:24 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Without this ability, I see no reason why anyone would commence new > application development on the U2 platform. Since you will always require > another application server (Websphere, Tomcat, Bea, Jboss, etc.) to talk to > the U2 server, that would in-turn interact with the database. > I'm sure Mark you mean "New application development that must have a web presence". Unless you feel that all application development must have a web presence. Will -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
RE: Database decoupling (Was: Future of U2)
With Database decoupling, the U2 platform basically becomes an application server. What would be REALLY cool, is if the U2 application server provided the same functionality as Tomcat, for example. This would allow Http requests to be sent to the U2 server for a response. Allow it to act as a Soap server, etc. etc. etc. Without this ability, I see no reason why anyone would commence new application development on the U2 platform. Since you will always require another application server (Websphere, Tomcat, Bea, Jboss, etc.) to talk to the U2 server, that would in-turn interact with the database. Now, I know IBM are not going to start re-inventing the wheel. I believe this could be fairly easily accomplished (who am I kidding) by embedding some lite form of webSphere in the U2 environment. Or creating a U2 pluggin for webSphere. Just a thought.. Mark. -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
