This new feature is a slap in the face to users who have up until now have
been following a well established model of notification.
Ubuntu has been operating this way for years.
Now we file a bug report because for many of us, this IS a feature
regression.
The developers respond in a heavy handed
Matthew, you wrote:
ami_nakata and Peter Whittaker, your proposed rule
about never opening windows automatically is unworkable.
Peter's threefold 'PUGIT' division of screen real-estate does confer a
kind of 'holy ground' status upon what he identifies as the zone for
'what I am doing, things
On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 10:32 AM, ddumont ddum...@gmail.com wrote:
Are you being intruded when your
e-mail program notifies you in a persistent window that new mail is
ready (and maybe even bring up the program window unfocused)? Are you
being intruded when your IM client pops up a window
Using a notification icon to advertise updates is a bad idea first
because it's not obvious, and second because it makes installing the
updates gratuitously difficult.
This drives me nuts. As soon as the icon comes into play you get a
notification telling you what happened (Hello User, updates
@Matthew:
I neglected to say something I think is pretty important: I do recognize
how very frustrating it must be for you, Mark, et. al to have put so
much work into this and to have received so much criticism, even hostile
criticism, when you of course believed (and believe) you were
ddumont, that something is years-old and well-established does not mean
it is correct. (For example, applications have been asking for over 25
years whether you want to save changes to documents, but that's always
been nonsense and should be fixed eventually.) Nor does it mean the
behavior should
Brian Curtis wrote:
It appears as if you're basing your judgement on the amount of clicks it takes
to perform actions. The amount of time it *really* takes to make 4 clicks
(making the assumption that you have to move the mouse between each click), is
no more than like 4 seconds.
What makes
We're up to ~146 comments and 13 dups on this bug report, and strayed a
bit from discussing update-notifier into general dude, were's my icons?
what have you done with my notifications?! territory. It is also not
specifically an Ubuntu discussion even if it does affect Ubuntu, and
I've not seen
I see a notification in the system tray when there are updates... what
behavior are you referring to?
On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 11:04 AM, Brian Curtis
briancurtis...@gmail.comwrote:
On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 10:32 AM, ddumont ddum...@gmail.com wrote:
Are you being intruded when your
e-mail
Il giorno mer, 08/04/2009 alle 14.19 +, Brian Curtis ha scritto:
What makes these things difficult, is that most of the time people
aren't staring at their taskbar tray, and any icon that pops up goes
unnoticed (most of the time). Making this how MPT has it , is
something
to try out,
ddumont, that something is years-old and well-established does not mean
it is correct. (For example, applications have been asking for over 25
years whether you want to save changes to documents, but that's always
been nonsense and should be fixed eventually.) Nor does it mean the
behavior should
Il giorno mer, 08/04/2009 alle 14.27 +, Alan Pope ha scritto:
In addition in the UK we have a book full of them called the Highway
Code which is a lookup table of signs and their meanings, with a
couple of tests before you are allowed to drive alone
Yes, but on the road you can't click
Il giorno mer, 08/04/2009 alle 14.27 +, Alan Pope ha scritto:
OK seems that this battle is not going to be won by the users!
This isn't a battle. It's a bug report.
Did somebody notice how tons of people here are *fighting* for what they
feel like an usability decrease in ubuntu?
Il giorno mer, 08/04/2009 alle 14.42 +, ddumont ha scritto:
It sure feels like a battle. Do you simply not see the opposition
here, or
do you choose to ignore it?
Why isn't such a drastic change in policy configurable by the user?
You're writing software for users... aren't you?
Il giorno mer, 08/04/2009 alle 15.04 +, Brian Curtis ha scritto:
My point to this, (and thanks for saying yes), was this is how Ubuntu
currently runs in Intrepid (so in essence you are saying you don't
like the
current way ubuntu runs).
pidgin is a single program, against (if you
Il giorno mer, 08/04/2009 alle 15.26 +, Matthew Paul Thomas ha
scritto:
If
you have an alternative proposal for how to present persistent
notifications, then as I suggested to Peter Whittaker, you're welcome
to
post them on the Ubuntu wiki for further discussion.
Whenever anybody does
It is not configurable by everyday users... That setting is not explicitly
supported. When it breaks, everyone who relies on it will be SOL.
On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 12:14 PM, Vincenzo Ciancia vincenzo...@yahoo.itwrote:
Il giorno mer, 08/04/2009 alle 14.42 +, ddumont ha scritto:
It
I've updated
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NotificationDesignGuidelines/Comment with my
(very long) comments from this report and have added text to answer some
of Matthew's questions and observations.
The wiki post has a few differences from the bug report, mostly because
my thinking got a little
Thanks to everyone who's participated in this bug discussion and related
threads. As a result, a number of changes were made in 9.04 pre-release. There
is a gconf key which allows people to have a system tray icon visible when
updates are available. The behaviour of the update manager was
On Wed, 2009-04-08 at 19:55 +, Mark Shuttleworth wrote:
I think it's important that we not treat the OS specially,
Mark, thanks for your comments. I think this one area where there is
considerable disagreement: The OS is different - when the computer needs
to tell me something, I probably
Thanks.
It would be helpful to have a follow-up post on what is wrong with
having applications minimize to the notification area and what should be
done instead, so that application developers can take some action.
--
[Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
It's a shame that the team is so fixated on not fixing this, as I
enabled the work around on my home desktop and got the notification:
310 updates to apply
Which hadn't been applied as we go along because my indicator went away.
--
[Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status
Op woensdag 08-04-2009 om 19:55 uur [tijdzone +], schreef Mark
Shuttleworth:
I think the system tray is heavily overused, and abused, by many
applications, and as part of our design initiative we are working to
reduce that.
First of all, it's not called the system tray, but the
Mark wrote: The behaviour of the update manager was changed so that it
doesn't pop up but instead opens minimised
I have a feeling that this behaviour is even worse than the original
pop-under approach. It only strengthens the feeling in the user that an
application was launched by mistake...
On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 5:33 PM, Peter Velosy peter.vel...@gmail.com
wrote:
I have a feeling that this behaviour is even worse than the original
pop-under approach.
I think it is a great approach. With the original approach I could just
imagine someone showing off their Ubuntu desktop to a
Thanks, Michael, now the picture is getting clear to me. I thought the
functionality thus far was that update-manager just appeared under all
windows (there was some discussion about a pop-under), showing up only
after all windows have been closed or its taskbar button has been
clicked. The reason
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 16:03:03 +
From: ddum...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide
useful status information
ddumont, that something is years-old and well-established does not mean
it is correct. (For example, applications have been
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 19:55:27 +
From: m...@canonical.com
Subject: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful
status information
I think the system tray is heavily overused, and abused, by many
applications, and as part of our design initiative we
Peter Velosy wrote:
So if the taskbar button really gets some kind of a flashing effect then it's a
good approach indeed.
@ Peter , actually that is a worse approach having an panel window list
blink... !
that is the opposite of the whole idea of behind this change !!!
the devs say that they
I'd like to offer a hopefully useful and constructive suggestion moving
forward.
I'm assuming Canonical keeps stats on time to patch and percentage up-
to-date machines (maybe this too hard with mirrors - would users accept
a phone home to help out?).
I think it would be great to see if the new
I for one am not happy about this have applied the gconf patch---also,
anyone that really dislikes this new fix that was NOT needed--look at:
http://martinpitt.wordpress.com/2009/02/23/the-stracciatella-gnome-
session/ for a more Gnome-like session.
--
[Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would
The abolish the icon and bubble, and instead open the updates window
directly behavior introduced as part of this change just feels very
disrespectful to me. One of the things that prompted me to install
Ubuntu and move away from the market-share leader's products is what I
view as that vendor's
The pop-up update notifier is a very bad idea for two simple reasons,
both of which have to do with how the majority of people have learned to
use computers:
1. On the web, a pop-up is often, very often, something obnoxious to be
dismissed as quickly as possible: An ad, an invitation to swat a
ami_nakata and Peter Whittaker, your proposed rule about never opening windows
automatically is unworkable.
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027568.html
It's not particularly productive to be covering, in bug report comments,
exactly the same points as were covered in
@Matthew,
I highly doubt we'd be covering the same points if they weren't still a
problem and concern to users. The fact that this problem still remains
after that initial discussion indicates that at least some users (myself
included) don't appreciate this change and think it's a bad idea. One
On Tue, 2009-04-07 at 14:21 +, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
ami_nakata and Peter Whittaker, your proposed rule about never opening
windows automatically is unworkable.
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027568.html
I didn't read all of Peter's very long comment,
On Tue, 2009-04-07 at 14:21 +, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
It's not particularly productive to be covering, in bug report comments,
exactly the same points as were covered in the mailing list discussion
six weeks earlier. So if you could read the mailing list discussion
first, that would be
Jamin, the link I provided was to one of several messages that I (along
with other members of the Design team) posted in that thread. So it's
completely inappropriate to say the thread was effectively ignored.
Brian, whether an automatically-opening window is from a newly-running
application or
MPT: I am very sorry to point this out, but in the e-mail that you are
linking, you are not being fair to the discussion topic. In particular,
you deliberately confuse persistent, non-interactive notification with
unrequested new interactive windows. Getting to the conclusion that a
no
@Matthew,
I've read the entire thread. Very good points (IMO) have been made for
why this change is not a good idea. I've yet to see anything more than
claims for backing up why the change was made. It's not inappropriate
to say it was effectively ignored. I'm not saying the thread wasn't
Peter, I'm not sure from the text description how your proposed
persistent indicator would behave; perhaps you could post a mockup and
example timeline on the Ubuntu wiki?
Jamin, we have made several changes to the Update Manager behavior in
response to feedback from others in the community
@Matthew,
As far as I can tell none of those changes address the chief
complaints, as I understand them, that I've seen voiced here.
* automated opening of a window
No matter how you go about this, it *is* more obtrusive than the previous, and
preferred, notification icon. I've yet to see
why the hatred towards notification icons???
i would like to have certain applications minimized and to just keep
running in the background like email clients, bittorrent client, im
clients, such apps dont deserve a place in the windows list unless they
have some new event , when i desire to
On Tue, 2009-04-07 at 16:25 +, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
I'm not sure from the text description how your proposed
persistent indicator would behave; perhaps you could post
a mockup and example timeline on the Ubuntu wiki?
I'm not a graphics guy (I struggle with getting anything more than
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 17:07:03 +
From: jcoll...@asgardsrealm.net
Subject: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful
status information
@Matthew,
As far as I can tell none of those changes address the chief
complaints, as I understand them, that I've seen
I switched my 71 year old mother to Ubuntu about a year ago. After
setting it up so that she could easily find the applications she needed
I told her one thing. I told her that the little orange or red icon
that appears in the top right means there are important updates and to
click it when
I think most has been said already but I could I add one more thing?
If you have unstable internet (or are traveling), you might not want to
update immediately. So I think the notifier icon is important to remind
people that there are updates they haven't downloaded yet. Similar with
the new
** Description changed:
I am referring to the removal up the update-notifier in the Gnome
notification area. The discussion of it is embedded in the thread
headed by:
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-
devel/2009-February/027416.html
Specific messages worth reading
totally agree that should be a bug, specially for the restart notification.
If some one have a bug and forget to do a restart, the bug still here and he
can think this bug is annoying
--
[Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
For any Kubuntu people commenting in this bug:
Kubuntu does not have this change. There is a python-qt4-dbus bug (Bug
348704) that happens for some people that upgrade from Intrepid that
prevents update-notifier-kde from working. This is a high priority bug
that's being worked on for the
Is there any reason why you didn't just invent a new type of non-
clickable balloons which are only meant to tell the user the meaning of
an icon representing a persistent notification and which can be disabled
as soon as the user knows what the icon means?
--
[Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would
I want back the Update Notifier that tell me there's an update (and I
like to see that icon everytime it find an update, even minor) without
'breaking balls', just like in Windows (and AS Ubuntu 8.10). If things
are PERFECTS why you have to change them?
Sorry for the rant but the new system is
For everybody who just wants the old behaviour, you can have it by
entering
gconftool -s --type bool /apps/update-notifier/auto_launch false
in a terminal, or browsing to the same option via gconf-editor. This has
been reported in other comments in this bug report.
--
[Jaunty] Update Notifier
Exactly what it do? It says seen that it will not launch automatically
'anything', but I would just want the old notification behavior where it
launch just the 'notification icon' near 'clock, etc.'.
Thanks
--
[Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Guys I found a temporary way to revert back to the old system, it's
explained all here: http://martinpitt.wordpress.com/2009/02/23/the-
stracciatella-gnome-session/
Anyway I hope that the Ubuntu team will revert to the old system by
default (I'm talking about the update notifier and nothing
Exactly what it do? It says seen that it will not launch automatically
'anything', but I would just
want the old notification behavior where it launch just the 'notification
icon' near 'clock, etc.'.
That's exactly what the command does, it changes the gconf settings for
the
Il giorno ven, 03/04/2009 alle 17.12 +, Alessandro Pedarra ha
scritto:
Guys I found a temporary way to revert back to the old system, it's
explained all here: http://martinpitt.wordpress.com/2009/02/23/the-
stracciatella-gnome-session/
Please let's not create additional confusion on a
While this will solve *my* problem...I still think it is a mistake in
general to annoy regular users with this new behaviour. More and more
people are finding out about this, how many people subscribing to this bug
will it take to force the developers' hands?
I don't understand the problem
if it is that easy to bring back the old behavior and make the icon
appear again when updates are availble while keeping the new
notification i think it should be done untill rethinking of the concept
will be done
On Fri, 2009-04-03 at 18:58 +, ddumont wrote:
While this will solve *my*
People...I used Kubuntu Jauty but not show update-notifier.
Can be fixed?
gp
--
[Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945
You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu
Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu.
Afaik the Kubuntu team hasn't accepted the new notifier and are still
discussing it's implications.
--
[Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945
You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu
Bugs, which is
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 10:30:23 +
From: m...@canonical.com
What's so wrong with the updates-available icon is that it's not obvious.
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027434.html
I am confused. In the above list it says:
update-notifier has always
Strange, I sent a reply to this via email several hours ago, and it's not in
the bug report.
Does replying to a bug via email work? I'll post it through the web, and my
apologies
(and permission to delete one) if it shows up twice.
On Thu, 2 Apr 2009, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
John, one
Replying via email does work. Launchpad is one of the bugtrackers that
actually supports this.
(you can see which people replied via email in the bug report by the reply
subjects)
--
[Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945
You
John, one benefit of Ubuntu's package management system is that things
like new virus definitions, new Java versions and so on can be combined
into the single updates-available window, rather than appearing as
separate windows.
No, we have no plans to put up frequent reminders for restarting.
I think 90% of the users agree with you in most aspects and like the new
system for rather unimportant, temporary notifications.
The problem is that there doesn't seem to be a great concept for
persistent notifications. And – just as long as there is none – why
didn't you decide to keep the old
Mark said:
We all are complaining because we feel that pop-under or whaterer are
just wrong, and we want ubuntu to be perfect :)
And I see your point! We've been focused on the idea that the action
itself should be immediately accessible to the user (rather than a
notification followed by a
Surely the solution for this is simple. Install updates automatically by
default (but make it an option that power users can change).
This entire thread is about forcing people to click a button that says
update, and plenty of suggestions have been dismissed on the basis
that the user might, as a
I personally don't think an Instant Messaging program would be a correct
fit for messages relating to system updates. Not all users have an IM
running all the time, and if the solution would then be to create a
lightweight message notifier, we are just re-inventing the update-
notifier wheel.
The
well i thought it was a bug that the icon notifying about new updates is
gone and after reading the comments (i admit not all) i still think its
a bug even though it was planed
i think new updates are important info that i would like to know about
--
[Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide
On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 1:56 AM, Mark Shuttleworth wrote:
But the windows itself could be minimised. Let's explore that. I
think it may be too late for Jaunty but I'll see what we can do.
Is it just me or am I missing something? Isn't the hole point of
notification system to NOTIFY the user
Vincenzo Ciancia wrote :
- messages can contain URLs. One can use a clickable URI to run a
program - e.g. update-notifier. Indeed, these URIs must be made
clickable in the client _only if_ coming from the system account. And
for more security enabled applications could be whitelisted as one
On Sat, 2009-03-28 at 04:11 +, michael perigard wrote:
Oh, and I certainly wasn't advocating every application have their own
icon. If a program is running on another workspace or in the background
and doesn't need to notify me of state updates or new events, it
shouldn't take up any
Notification area is broken - most applications provide an option to show
the notification. Personally, I see it as a useful space for the application
to go away, while still running, and not using up space in my window space.
So I still don't see how to fix the broken applications.
--
[Jaunty]
Just to be more precise, I have nothing against the new notifyosd.
But, I think, there is a problem with update-notifier implementation.
The permanent reminder for updates available or reboot required is
very important for every users (everyone doesn't want to update or
reboot immediately), this
Great reply but it's lacking in substance of answering the question. By
experts being able to get it back, I assume you mean downgrading.
What do the non-experts do though? My mother, a non-expert user,
couldn't care less about updates - because she doesn't get on her
computer to update it but do
Well spoken Mark.
I would'nt lie if I said that this decision was a strange one that
actually sounds kind of bad to me. Especially the part being interupted
by updates when you work.
However as Matthew says, this behavior was not designed yesterday on the
back of a napkin and there is propably a
Hi everybody, Discussion should probably be moved to the Ubuntuforums,
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1097110
Thanks everybody for your interest in this topic. Your interaction in
bug reports really helps make Ubuntu a better place. Please keep
reporting bugs as you encounter them!
No downgrade neccesary at all... it is just GConf setting ... In the terminal
run:
gconftool -s --type bool /apps/update-notifier/auto_launch false
restart X and you are done. It's working for me.
--
[Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
On Fri, 2009-03-27 at 20:33 +, Brian Curtis wrote:
Hi everybody, Discussion should probably be moved to the Ubuntuforums,
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1097110
Uhm, please no. I don't interact on web pages/forums. I don't have
the time or attention to go check forums multiple
On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 4:40 PM, Brian J. Murrell
br...@interlinx.bc.ca wrote:
I just fail to see how unsolicited application pop-ups that cover a
major portion of my screen real-estate is good UI design.
It's not good design. I don't think the Canonical team is even
suggesting it's good
I just did a update and upgrade using apt-get. After the upgrade, I got
two notification, one for Firefox needs to be restarted and click here
for more information, and another for you need to restart you system and
click here for more information.
Now two questions and are these bugs:
1) I
Also forgot to say that the upgrade notification icon showed up showing
that a package manager is working while the updates are being
installed. How is this useful?
--
[Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945
You received this
Sounds like you've made the gconf change to restore the original
behavior.
--
[Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945
You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu
Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu.
Funny thing is I didn't. But now I am going to since this is just
logical to me. Call me an export.
--
[Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945
You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu
Bugs, which
On Sat, 2009-03-28 at 00:02 +, ktp420 wrote:
But I got both Firefox needs restart icon and restart required icon. Is
this another bug? If it is, then will the dialog, which is shows the
information when user clicks the notification or icon, be opened like
updates-available dialog when
On Fri, 2009-03-27 at 23:10 +, michael perigard wrote:
Now I've seen the emergence of the indicator-applet which seems to me
to be an attempt at a notification area with standards. I feel like
there's a bit of wheel re-inventing going on. We already have an area
for notifications. Most
(CC'ed to ubuntu-devel-discuss, as this is where further discussions
should happen. Please everybody answer there.)
Op zaterdag 28-03-2009 om 02:23 uur [tijdzone +], schreef Ted Gould:
The notification area is fundamentally broken. It's broken in the
fact that what it requires is
Ted Gould wrote:
Hopefully from the installer experience on you start to realize that we
want it to just work for everyone on the planet, not just the elite
who enjoy tweaking their computers. If you'd like to see what we think
about market share, I'd recommend Bug 1. :)
fair enough. and I was
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