, not the ad hoc usage of individual web sites and books.
There's no proposal for that, and I would agree with you. But that
was some interesting information.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
stent approach, we create a
standard which is predictable and universal.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
not.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
extensive and readily available.
Fonts, however, are not, which indicates that Tarot is not ready for
encoding. I would rather proceed with things that are ready.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
aying that Swedish, Danish, and the
Romance languages are not unified in Unicode?
Are you being deliberately obtuse?
No.
Then go back and re-read the entire context because you have got it wrong.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
).
It's a false analogy, but I said that to you a month ago too. You've
tried to be clever, to "force" us into seeing Semitic scripts the way
you do. You've failed.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
At 17:57 +0100 2004-05-25, Christopher Fynn wrote:
Michael Everson wrote:
Fonts, however, are not, which indicates that Tarot is not ready
for encoding. I would rather proceed with things that are ready.
http://www.myfonts.com/fonts/scriptorium/marseille-tarot/a/charmap.html
I have seen that. I
to make this
into a script with complex rendering, John?
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
gument is at an end. I am tired of
false analogies and fake challenges.
Separate encoding of Phoenician will not ruin
Unicode forever for Semitic studies. Not one of
the claims made by any of you to the contrary
have any merit.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
ll caps, because setting text
in all caps violates the normal rules of Fraktur typography and
typographic practice. But you should have known that had you done
your homework.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
created for very different purposes).
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
ns.
I agree with you; I didn't express myself well (and wrote "to dot"
instead of "do not")...
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
At 14:00 -0400 2004-05-25, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Michael Everson scripsit:
Trump seems to mean something else in English these days.
Not really. In the game of tarot/tarocchi, which is a species of
whist, there are a fixed set of trumps; in successor games using the
standard deck, which
At 14:02 -0700 2004-05-25, Patrick Andries wrote:
I believe is similar to what exists in Old Italic. Please refer to
the Old Italic proposal.
Old Italic is no longer a proposal. It has been encoded.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
age, the
fact is that real users now and in the future don't and won't care
about those old character sets. That we have "geometric shapes" for
instance but lack the PENTAGON is extremely silly, and is not very
friendly to the primary-school teacher trying to use his computer t
At 13:09 +0100 2004-05-26, Michael Everson wrote:
Just because someone hasn't put them on a web page (in a clumsy
graphic) yet doesn't mean that it isn't reasonable to wait for them
to do so.
RECTE Just because someone hasn't put them on a web page (in a clumsy
graphic) y
it's not, pretty much every variant of n has
been encoded as a modifier letter, except for the basic small
letter.
That's it.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
heard your arguments. We have weighed
them. Unification has lost. I believe that it is
a foregone conclusion that Phoenician will be
sent for ballot, though of course the UTC and WG2
could decide otherwise.
As far as I'm concerned, that's about the end of the discussion.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
e than a decade.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
I am resigning my membership of the [EMAIL PROTECTED] list until
further notice.
--
Michael Everson
forth are
variants, as you probably know, and these numismatists want an
explicit way to get the correct glyph to appear where appropriate.
You'd want to be more specific. Are these logos? On the other hand we
did encode the turned-Q signature mark.
=
James Kass:
Michael Everson wrote,
I
d and categorized for centuries by
experts, investors, and enthusiasts alike.
There is widespread agreement as to which "glyph
variations" represent the same abstract mint
mark.
What are the authoritiative printed sources listing them exhaustively?
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typog
n be done. My library is impressive,
but has limitations. ;-)
How many of them are there?
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
Practice your tongue-twisting.
Proposal to add Bantu phonetic click characters to the UCS
http://www.evertype.com/standards/iso10646/pdf/n2790-clicks.pdf
:-P
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
cument to WG2 and UTC yet.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
At 00:11 -0400 2004-06-10, Ernest Cline wrote:
> [Original Message]
From: Michael Everson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Practice your tongue-twisting.
Proposal to add Bantu phonetic click characters to the UCS
http://www.evertype.com/standards/iso10646/pdf/n2790-clicks.pdf
Why wouldn&
d have been inspired by Daniel Jones' 1911 pamphlet
on Chindau (which I have not seen).
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
both used in N. V. Jushmanov,
"Foneticheskie paralleli afrikanskix i
jafeticheskix jazykov", in Africana (Transations
of the section of African languages), Moskva:
Izdatel´stvo Akademii Nauk SSSR, 1937.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
Heh. Of course despite the fact that Doke published in Bantu Studies,
chu: (Kxoe, SIL code XUU) is a Khoisian language. I'll be changing
the title of the document, though for the purposes of discussion, it
would be best not to change the title of this thread.
--
Michael Everson * * Ev
esent are idiosyncratic and difficult to
describe, much less write. Personal? No: he published. Novel? Perhaps
(in 1925); Doke is likely to have devised them. Private use? Be
serious, John. That's a pretty ridiculous suggestion.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
At 10:00 -0400 2004-06-10, John Cowan wrote:
Michael Everson scripsit:
They were published in Bantu Studies in 1925 in an article by a
rather important scholar in the field of African linguistics.
We don't encode characters according to the clout of the user, or
the Apple logo would have
ot forgotten Doke's characters suggests
that Africanists will also likely not forget them, and will find use
in access to them as encoded characters in the UCS.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
other
works for me, will you? I'll be in Markham for the next fortnight. Of
course I will do what I can when I'm at the Library of Congress in
early July, but you are welcome to assist.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
At 11:00 -0400 2004-06-10, John Cowan wrote:
Michael Everson scripsit:
Although Pullum and Ladusaw don't show the glyphs, they refer
specifically to Doke's characters (s.v. ///). They describe them as
"ad hoc" which I suppose the were, in 1925, though "novel" wo
Cyrillic characters
which haven't turned up again either.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
At 07:00 -0700 2004-06-10, Peter Constable wrote:
What about Bell's Visible Speech?
They're on our list. As are i.t.a and the Phonotypy characters. I'll
bring a lovely Phonotypic text with me to Toronto.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
aracters have not been lost to history?
It's a little peculiar to suggest that data has to be printed in two
books in order to be considered "interchangeable". Books don't
interchange data between themselves. Users do. ;-)
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
8A as given by BabelMap+Code2000
(see attached) is not productively different from U+0251
U+0302 U+0361 U+028A (see attached)...
OS X does it correctly. (Though I didn't see your gif.)
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
What next? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3775799.stm
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
ICK. It doesn't have an upper case property anyway.
In any case -- and I think this is the precedent I am looking for --
this is a "script" capital Q in the same way that U+0261 is a script
g. It is **not** unified with U+210A SCRIPT SMALL G.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
ch is on my web site (including the title);
that document has been sent to UTC and WG2. In
the first sentence it suggests that chû: is
"Kxoe", but on further research this seems to be
a different language. I think chû: is what the
Ethnologue calls Kung-Ekoka (in Namibia).
--
Michael E
At 13:50 -0400 2004-06-10, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Michael Everson scripsit:
You have a weird view of the history of phonetics, John. You haven't
addressed the substantive issue: these are Latin characters used to
represent sounds which in 1925 could not easily be represented.
And never
s, but baulk at supporting our own writing
system and its extensions equally faithfully.
Thank you.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
, since the use of the word 'script' has
different meaning in both cases.
No, it doesn't. Your mathematical "script" has a meaning which is
different from the one which applies to the IPA [g] and from the one
I had in mind when I named the character.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
inst unifying them
with Greek letters, particularly since they were applied for purposes
very different from those of sigma or heta.
Then I am not sure what you are talking about (I don't know the Latin
versions of these), but please take this up with me in July. My brain
is full.
--
Michael E
uack, honk, etc...
Thank you all for enjoying discussion of something besides Phoenician.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
unity; those people who are actively
transcribing old works, like Project Gutenberg. Due to the latest US
copyright extensions, it will take us a couple decades, but we'll want
to transcribe this article.
Hence the Universal Character Set and the effort I go to write up
proposals for this k
ppy to find a
second use of the letters, but I consider the usefulness of being
able to cite Doke in the original to be perfectly legitimate. Let's
see what turns up in NYPL and LOC.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
In any case, it's
entirely likely that some commercial organization will license these
and start digitially transcribing old linguistics documents for sale
to libraries. And I hardly see how the issues will change in the
next 18 years.
Unless one contacted whomever it is who owns "B
Here, however, we have (as far as the evidence goes) a
single use by a single author.
Many characters have been encoded with just as much.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
ther or not the
characters are important enough for people to want to be able to
interchange them as encoded UCS characters (which is stipulated as a
question), it's just not on to say that these are the same kinds of
things as Prince's logo or the Seussian extensions.
--
Michael Evers
acsimile reproduction of their orginal form -- for that we
have facsimiles. :-) I love Shakespeare, but I don't have to read
his plays with long ess's and antique typefaces.
Face is irrelevant. And the long ess is encoded for those who need or
want to use it.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
d is out of scope by definition.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
f earthen works that surrounded
the ancient Dún Mór Fort on the Dingle Peninsula
were levelled at the weekend by an excavating
machine. An entrance and a standing stone with an
ogham (Celtic writing) inscription were also
removed.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
padme hum.
Michael Everson
==
Bob Bemer, computer pioneer Bob Bemer, dies at 84
The Associated Press
6/23/2004, 7:58 p.m. ET
POSSUM KINGDOM LAKE, Texas (AP) - Computer pioneer Bob Bemer, who
helped invent the widely used ASCII coding system used by computers
to represent text, has died from
ntially fill 3-4x as
many code points as it currently has.
It is up to WG2 to find room for characters and assign them code
positions. You don't need to worry about that. Worry about the
characters.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
used for this case ?
These do not decompose.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
Agence intergouvernmentale
de la francophonie has joined the Consortium recently.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
At 14:11 -0400 2004-06-30, John Cowan wrote:
But the X WITH ACUTE characters there are exactly equivalent to the
X WITH TONOS characters in the main Greek block, and the ones in the
main Greek block are in fact preferred.
How can you tell they are preferred, John?
--
Michael Everson * * Everson
Found a book on the Tulu script.
Found some of Doke's 1925 phonetic characters cited in a 1975 source.
Found lots more Samaritan.
Found volume 2 of Schmitt's Die Bamum-Schrift.
Found a lovely 7-page monograph, Recommendations on Zulu Orthography, 1929
--
Michael Everson * * Everson
ended from Orkhon, if it's not bogus.
Found an amazingly bad African conscript called Mandombe.
Found some nice things about Palastinian and Tiberian accents.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
Payi's book (46 pp) but the script's structure is not
really explained well enough to do a ConScript registry for it!
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
als" action be performed in the reader's
brain, instead of in the typesetter's office?
But if the reader merely removes the diacriticals,
He means, I think, that the reader ignores them, not knowing what they mean.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
some loanwords in French which retain the
letter. Cañon is one of these.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
meaningful, stripping them is just misspelling
the words they belong to. Why would anyone want to do that?
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
ish, Italian
words and names but discards others (as I recall).
I wouldn't consider that good typography, that's all I'm saying.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
the composer. But I don't agree that "façade"
is correctly spelled in English without the ç
either.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
such wordlists.
6) the Latin alphabet has a lot more than 26 letters in it. In this
age of the Universal Character Set, "most users" would do better to
get used to this than to be hobbled by older concepts.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
rs" would do better to
get used to this than to be hobbled by older concepts.
I agree with the general principle, but it has
no bearing on the topic at hand.
It is the key to the principles which are in the template now.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
ciples alone.
Stability is important, and we want to consider that very carefully before
making any change. However, I believe that the current way we handle a few
characters in UCA is distinctly suboptimal, and worth considering.
John [Cowan]'s list is not "a few characters".
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
nd loss of
data.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
onsiders not using folding.
Under what protocol?
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
ch of the last century standard YIVO orthography has been
preferred, and they are just not optional there.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
particular example, what
you've said doesn't make sense. In Ogham, you'd write (using feather
marks here) >-U-S-A-< and in bottom to top orientation that whole
string would be rotated with the U toward the bottom and the A toward
the top.
What you described would just be wron
ome languages as now.
Please see the specification of the Irish
Extended keyboard for Unicode, at
http://www.evertype.com/celtscript/ga-keys-x.html
A liberal use of dead-keys enables the user to
type a very, very large number of Latin letters.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
At 18:44 -0400 2004-07-22, John Cowan wrote:
Michael Everson scripsit:
Please see the specification of the Irish
Extended keyboard for Unicode, at
http://www.evertype.com/celtscript/ga-keys-x.html
Interesting. There seems to be no explanation of the seven keyboard
states shown in the graphic
unshifted, one shifted, one obtained
with AltGr).
And everyone who has used a Macintosh has been used to:
plain
shifted
alt
alt-shifted
for twenty years. And that means US and European keyboard layouts.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
did when they had to put down one pen and
pick up another.
You can't expect the encoding to colour elements of precomposed glyphs.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
At 16:16 -0700 2004-08-14, Peter Constable wrote:
OK. For managing language resources, what ID should one use?
I would use Moldavian for text written in Soviet-era Cyrillic.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
more than just a script difference.
I would use Moldavian for text written in Soviet-era Cyrillic.
This is not the same thing as Cyrillic-written Romanian from the 19th
or previous centuries, though.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
At 06:47 +0300 2004-09-09, Jony Rosenne wrote:
FB1D, HEBREW LETTER YOD WITH HIRIQ, should be assigned to the unknown group.
It is not a Hebrew character, notwithstanding the misleading name.
Of course it is.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
At 10:23 +0300 2004-09-09, Jony Rosenne wrote:
The UTC refused to add Yiddish to the name, unlike the other Yiddish
specialties, and I am not aware of any other possibility.
This complaint is as cosmetic as it is old and tiresome.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http
busy right now to devote any time to this,
Good.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
At 13:46 +0100 2004-09-19, Christopher Fynn wrote:
So, am I right in assuming that were someone put together a decent
proposal for one or more shorthand scripts, there is no particular
reason in principle why it would be rejected?
You are right.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography
N or REGISTERED.
All of which were in existing standards, so they aren't conclusive
precedents.
Circled infinity sign wasn't in any existing standards.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
ne country. That would
make a stronger case for it.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
At 13:07 -0700 2004-09-20, Kenneth Whistler wrote:
ARABIC HAH COPYRIGHT SIGN
* used in Saudi Arabia
or even:
CIRCLED ARABIC LETTER HAH
* a copyright sign used in Saudi Arabia
The second would be better. And is the circled C used in Saudi Arabia
for the copyright used as well?
--
Michael
At 13:39 -0700 2004-09-20, Kenneth Whistler wrote:
Michael Everson responded to Christopher Fynn's question:
At 13:46 +0100 2004-09-19, Christopher Fynn wrote:
>
> >So, am I right in assuming that were someone put together a decent
> >proposal for one or more shorthand
At 18:50 -0400 2004-09-20, Ernest Cline wrote:
From a logical point of view, wouldn't shorthands fit better in the
Notational systems (1D000..1FFFD ) superblock than in the African
and other syllabic scripts ( 11800..11FFF) superblock ?
Please understand: it doesn't matter.
--
Micha
g into expanded plain text loses the original ambiguity.
Correct, and work is ongoing to encode them. If you have references
please forward them to me.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
. And there are a lot of
things that could be enclosed.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
a few weeks ago. We had a long and
interesting evening talking about this. It does seem to be such a
repository -- editable like a Wiki too, perhaps.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
I think encoding shorthands is a worthwhile thing, but there are
other things on the roadmap which take priority.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
told us the URL
so we can actually look at it! :)
Oh ... the locator is
http://www.uni-mainz.de/~knappen/diercke.jpg
Ah, handwritten text....
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
At 08:12 -0700 2004-09-28, Eric Muller wrote:
It seems that Abkhaz, written in Cyrillic, uses a PE WITH DESCENDER,
but I can't find this case pair in Unicode. I am missing something,
or do we need to encode those?
U+04A6, U+04A7 are used in Abkhaz for that sound, I believe.
--
Michael Ev
the representative
glyph to use a descender, since that is the form used in both D&B
and in the Abkhaz font.
We need more evidence to encode a PE-DESCENDER or to annotate a book
that just those two sources, I should think.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
since then, it will be
interesting to see what recent samples folks can come up with.
I will look into the Abkhaz data I have in due course.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
o be encoded or not,
but it is certainly not a glyph variant of PE WITH HOOK. That is the
kind of overunification which I will never consider to be acceptable.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
differentiate u from n.
The thing in those examples shown as a curly
thing between the b and the g should be encoded
as a brever over the b.
That's my opinion, anyway.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
For all my mocking, I must admit I've barely glanced through the book, and
it looks like there might actually be a wealth of real information about
Anglo-Saxon writing in there. I'm curious if anyone else has seen this book
and has comments.
--
I don't think I'd p
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