A new contribution:
N2714 http://www.dkuug.dk/jtc1/sc2/wg2/docs/n2714.pdf
Proposal to add two Masoretic punctuation marks to the BMP of the UCS
Mark Shoulson, Peter Kirk, John Hudson, Michael Everson, and Peter Constable
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
Ernest,
I have a proposal for the i.t.a. in the works; I would not unify it
with this character, which has a specific use in American English
lexicography.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
At 18:20 -0500 2004-03-05, Ernest Cline wrote:
> [Original Message]
From: Michael Everson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
I have a proposal for the i.t.a. in the works; I would not unify it
with this character, which has a specific use in American
English lexicography.
But that specific use is
r as I can tell, there are no documents that
use both of these ligated th's, so the cases aren't parallel.
That doesn't mean we are going to unify them, David.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
In the NEW YORK TIMES today
comes a report of a USA patent for a new version of written Arabic
letters, designed to make them easier to read/write/typeset without
making them too different from traditional Arabic script:
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/15/technology/15patent.html -
The piece include
he choices made by ill-educated sign makers
and advertisers.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
SOAS.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
use dotless "" is not a
letter used in Irish orthography. A picture of
the cover is at
http://www.evertype.com/gram/eilis-cover.jpg and
information on the book in general is at
http://www.evertype.com/gram/eachtrai-eilise.html
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
e's nothing wrong with using Gaelic fonts for English.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
At 12:41 -0800 2004-03-16, Asmus Freytag wrote:
A similar case has not been made for the i / dotless i in Irish.
Nor can there be. There is only one "i" character used in Irish.
Everyone knows this.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
without a dot.
This is the most elementary of character/glyph issues.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
At 02:04 -0800 2004-03-17, Peter Kirk wrote:
Or just use the accursed American Uncial, if there's a version of it
which supports more than Windows 1252.
It would not be suitable for Turkish, given its inherent ugliness.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
al restriction of the Irish diacritic dot (having only one
single function in Irish) to the consonants to which it belongs?
COMBINING DOT ABOVE can be freely used on any base letter of the
Latin script. The dot on the LATIN SMALL LETTER I in Roman fonts is
unrelated to the COMBINING DOT ABOVE ch
of symbols are characters.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
CND and various communist governements).
What "organization" uses the ANARCHY SYMBOL? ;-)
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
I think the ANARCHY SIGN is perfectly good, but I think it is a glyph
variant of an existing character.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
"),
how can "dotless i" be preserved in plain text?
It may be preserved by the use of fonts without
dots on the "i". It should not be preserved by
spelling Irish with the letter used in Turkic
language orthography, unless you don't want to
spell-check or sort the data correctly.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
At 19:04 + 2004-03-18, Jon Wilson wrote:
I also disagree that the Anarchy symbol has no use within a text. I
do not doubt that I can find examples of published texts where the
anarchy symbol is used throughout.
Please do.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http
why shouldn't Irish
language "traditionalists" encode the i with a LATIN SMALL LETTER DOTLESS I
such as <0131>?
Because that would be a spelling error. The
letter "í" is the long form of "i". It is encoded
0069 0301 (or its equivalent 00E9). It would also
be a spelling error to encode "í" with 0131.
Those are the facts. It is not a matter for dispute.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
Ken and I agree.
Though I still think he is dead wrong about the LITTER DUDE.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
oposed one once, long ago. When I didn't know anything about
Unicode and ISO/IEC 10646.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
en you are simply
wrong. The Gaelic and Roman letterforms are glyph
variants of the Latin script. Changing the font
will lose the dot, if the Gaelic font has been
drawn correctly and tastefully. This has been the
case for the entire history of the use of the
Irish langauge on computers. Those, Brian, are
the facts.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
At 15:58 -0800 2004-03-18, Peter Kirk wrote:
On 18/03/2004 10:30, Michael Everson wrote:
You mistake orthography and glyph choice with character identity.
"Dotless i" as a *character* is used only in Turkic languages, has
nothing to do with Irish, and never has.
May I pick a nit her
At 10:36 +0100 2004-03-19, Marco Cimarosti wrote:
Michael Everson wrote:
What "organization" uses the ANARCHY SYMBOL? ;-)
The anarchist movement. Why are you winking?
That's not "an organization". As Rick said, it's a disorganization. ;-)
--
Michael Everson *
INING ACUTE.
The dot on the "i" in Roman fonts is NEVER, EVER,
represented by Turkish with COMBINING DOT ABOVE.
The acute acent on the "í" in Roman or Gaelic
fonts is NEVER, EVER, represented by Turkish
with COMBINING ACUTE.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
to stress to readers
of this list that "her company" with its abundant
expertise was hired by CEN to work on the MES
subset and the Alpha project, it should be
pointed out that it is I, Michael Everson, who
actually did the work as formally-appointed
editor of these CEN/ISSS proje
computer users worldwide -- are
better off for the "investment" made between 1994
and 2001 than they would have been otherwise.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
not a character-glyph issue.
I'm in Roscommon celebrating my partner's
sister's birthday, but I will check some
resources I have at home on this issue.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
font my Department refused to purchase,
but which fired my hungry soul's imagination.
While the bitmap font Gaillimh I designed in 1988
was not particularly beautiful, it never had a
dot on the i. My copy of Ó Dónaill's dictionary,
however, was bought by me in 1985 when I lived i
At 13:29 +0100 2004-03-22, Antoine Leca wrote:
John Cowan va escriure:
Pavel Adamek scripsit:
From the viewpoint of sorting,
the coding
would be much better than
.
For Czech, yes. For Spanish we want the latter.
What for?
Irony.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http
ill not object to that.
This is rather puzzling. What fonts would these be, specifically?
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
ers TOP-TO-BOTTOM EMBEDDING and
BOTTOM-TO-TOP EMBEDDING, with similar scope until the next PDF
character.
Which scripts are written bottom to top in vertical layout?
Ogham and sometimes Tifinagh.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
f new control characters.
You say this as though creating an app were something that anyone could do.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
At 10:30 -0800 2004-03-24, Peter Kirk wrote:
I don't know of any scripts in which the ordering of lines is bottom to top.
Orkhon (Old Turkic).
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
when using paper, though.
Even when they are written from the body outward (when carving etc.),
they are not read that way, so I wouldn't count that as a
bottom-to-top script.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
h the materials used to write it bottom to top,
but it was never intended to be read that way.
As I said, it was written from-the-body-out.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
boustrophedon
only script, then in my opinion, leaving the issue to higher levels
would be insufficient and Unicode will have to bite the bullet
and address boustrophedon in the standard itself.
Perhaps you should take this up with the keepers of the Bidi algorithm, Ernest.
--
Michael Everson
h
a space char he surely should look for those, but that is no reason to
complain about those fonts that dont.
Someone makingg an Indic font should consider this particular concern.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
is likely
to occur as part of a word rather than in isolation, to avoid
unwanted line breaks.
Of course, one could always display it with a dotted circle as well.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
newbie questions about Latin,
Greek, and Cyrillic capital "A", for
example.
We really need to encode Cyrillic KU and WE, of course, as those are
examples of UTC over-unifications.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
I think there are reasons for considering the Pluto variants as
different characters (usage for things other than Pluto) but this
needs checking.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
normative merely because it is in the standard.
John is correct here, but it is also true that "All other space
characters have fixed width" is a fairly strong declaration.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
At 13:52 -0800 2004-03-30, Rick McGowan wrote:
If there is a real need for exchanging some bunch of symbols, people
should be trying to standardize them, not standardize ways of *not*
standardizing them.
The Klingons are going to be back.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http
Which I assume means: "it's wrong for Unicode to make ANY property
pronouncements for ANY PUA characters, since that defines them, and
removes the P from the Use."
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
th U+ encoding.
In other words, it's fine for the UTC to say "PUA characters are all
LTR spacing characters" but for people who need to do something else,
the means to do so should be made available to them.
If I have understood the question.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
efined
Unicode characters which have properties that approximate what the
Tengwar needs?
My guess is the latter, unless PUA *properties* can be opened up as
changeable by the user.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
Looks like we're gonna add another 40 characters for Coptic....
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
st as squishable as
SPACE otherwise.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
I am busy here in Münster with Coptic. I will
look over this thread when I get back to Dublin.
(This to the several people who wrote to me
asking me to write a proposal for the CEDI SIGN.)
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
ero width morpheme break character?
Peter,
A screen reader has to know how to distinguish between "read" [ri:d]
and "read" [red] by some means other than insertion of a zero-width
character.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
being
considered for use in legal documents?
Evidence attached - one of many such legal texts on my computer,
nearly all plain text only.
You are chasing a chimera, Peter.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
At 13:29 -0700 2004-04-07, Richard Cook wrote:
I see. I assumed the codepoint assignments were already firm.
Never until the ballot is over.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
My
solution to this is to treat it as the top dot of a colon. So for me,
MIDDLE DOT is to COLON as MODIFIER LETTER HALF TRIANGULAR COLON is to
MODIFIER LETTER TRIANGULAR COLON.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
place its height at whatever the height
of a HYPHEN was and be done with it.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
At 09:03 -0700 2004-04-17, John Hudson wrote:
Michael Everson wrote:
So for me, MIDDLE DOT is to COLON as MODIFIER
LETTER HALF TRIANGULAR COLON is to MODIFIER
LETTER TRIANGULAR COLON.
This would make the mid-dot too high. The top
dot of the colon usually sits toward the top of
the x-height
Please take this thread elsewhere.
--
ME
from replacing.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
Two new contributions:
http://www.dkuug.dk/jtc1/sc2/wg2/docs/n2744
N2744
Revision of the Coptic block under ballot for the BMP of the UCS
Michael Everson & Stephen Emmel
http://www.dkuug.dk/jtc1/sc2/wg2/docs/n2743
N2743
Proposal to encode the HRYVNIA SIGN and the CEDI SIGN in the UCS
Mic
.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
I would appreciate it if there were a [EMAIL PROTECTED] list for
these discussions.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
At 19:37 -0700 2004-04-24, Doug Ewell wrote:
Michael Everson wrote:
I would appreciate it if there were a [EMAIL PROTECTED] list for
these discussions.
There is, [EMAIL PROTECTED], and I apologize for burdening this list with
my question.
Boy it would be really sensible for that to be locale
mbers.
It was felt not necessary to have two *public* lists.
I feel it is necessary to thread the items. Already the volume has
increased. Character set is a different thing from locales. Please
take this on board.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
hould be a locale list for discussion of all
the language tags, country tags, and other locale baggage.
Please, Mark.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
At 09:30 -0700 2004-04-25, Michael \(michka\) Kaplan wrote:
I find myself in the [rare? ] position of agreeing with Michael Everson
wholeheartedly.
(*embraces MichKa*)
Seems like those who want to combine them in a huge mishmosh can
simply belong to both lists, right?
Even I might want to
Ernest,
I consider the whole "Standardize TimeZone ID" thread to have been
off-topic for the Unicode list. It is not about Unicode. It is about
locales.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
ussion. It is no different from having lists dedicated to
specialized discussion of Tibetan or Hebrew or BiDi.
Please, Mark. You don't spend as much time on the Unicode list as I
do. Trust me.
Or trust MichKa.
Either way, please make a new list for this specialized discussion area.
--
At 22:58 -0800 2004-05-12, D. Starner wrote:
I've never seen a multi-script index; is there any real legacy
behavior here, besides computer programs which were forced to do
something?
In general, scripts are separated.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
At 11:25 +0200 2004-05-13, Kent Karlsson wrote:
Michael Everson Wrote:
This sort
of battle was fought over Runic: Runologists wanted the Runes to be
sorted in Latin alphabetical order,
Yes, but there was no suggestion to interleave the Runes with the
Latin script. So the example of the Runes
Nothing could be farther from the truth.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
aeo-Hebrew
text embedded in it in exactly the same way, yet we do not propose to
interfile Phoenician with Greek.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
?
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
ections to encoding them as
separate scripts.
I would have just as many objections to doing that as I would with
unifying it with Hebrew. Users don't expect this kind of interfiling
when looking things up in ordered lists. Interfiling of scripts
impedes legibility.
--
Michael Everson * * Eve
At 07:43 -0700 2004-05-10, Peter Kirk wrote:
On 08/05/2004 08:19, Michael Everson wrote:
Professional Semiticists are not the only surviving cultural owners
of the world's Middle Eastern historical cultural heritage.
Nor are you, Michael, or even you and your Indo-Europeanist friends.
So l
vered by ISCII.
No, it wouldn't!
Any pecularities could be handled in tailorings.
Such interleaving is the peculiarity. It renders an ordered text
illegible to interleave Kannada, Sinhala, and Gujarati. Japanese is
different; the users all use both scripts all the time.
--
Michael Everso
script" that is used for
encoding purposes, but can I find it written anywhere, or is it more
of an ephemeral thing?
I am way too jetlagged to go near this one today.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
is an error to talk about "Phoenician
disunification".
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
missing, like HETA, but
those can be added in due course.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
At 11:44 -0400 2004-05-13, Dean Snyder wrote:
Michael Everson wrote at 3:08 AM on Thursday, May 13, 2004:
At 21:34 -0400 2004-05-12, John Cowan wrote:
Remember that "Phoenician" in this context includes Palaeo-Hebrew, an
we *have* seen evidence that this script is mixed with Square i
x27;s not quite the Latino-elliniki that I've seen.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
At 13:44 -0700 2004-05-13, Kenneth Whistler wrote:
No and no. Hardware considerations for text layout became obsolete
with the appearance of the bit-mapped graphic screen display for
the Macintosh in 1984.
Boy is our work in its infancy yet.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http
code charts)
As it has been for centuries.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
forced, in our separate research projects, to deal with
MULTIPLE, COMPETING encodings.
You already do that, since Hebrew and Latin are "competing" encodings.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
up, if possible to use only Latin letters.
I would like to learn more about this.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
with the Samaritan letters. That wouldn't prevent
their use with Hebrew letters though. Arabic diacritics are sometimes
used with Samaritan too.
Elaine's document is a useful contribution.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
27;s Latin.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
laces with a and o.
As I said, they would be the *tailored* rules. Mixing scripts would
go against the current practice of ISO/IEC 14651.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
ormal Latin typeface
variety: there are serif, sans-serif, and typerwriter IPA fonts
available, and bold and italic are commonly met with.
None of that richness seems to apply to Fraser.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
Latinoelliniki
ordering which interfiled Latin and Greek as is (apparently)
sometimes done in Greece. That too would be a tailoring of the
default table.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
ourse.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
At 07:54 -0700 2004-05-08, Carl W. Brown wrote:
Do you know if there is an official list of country possessions?
The CIA factbook probably gets it right. I guess the UN publishes something.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
At 16:59 -0700 2004-05-07, E. Keown wrote:
You seem to have learned a lot from Michael Everson. Your basic
procedure is simply to ignore all objections and pretend they are
stupid.
I have not ignored your objections. I have rejected them because they
are inadequate to the task of encoding all
at it, because invariably when I say it's a tree, I agree with
myself.
I think my track record is a little stronger than that, in fairness.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
At 12:41 -0700 2004-05-08, E. Keown wrote:
Who's Potter Stewart? (I don't own a TV).Elaine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potter_Stewart
--
ME
At 10:41 -0700 2004-05-06, Jim Allan wrote:
Similarly _v_ and _u_ were for long only used as positional variants.
Not in a universal and sytematized way by any means.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
hat
means a failure wrt being legibly distinct.
That's what I said about setting Yiddish in Phoenician, isn't it?
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
At 21:13 +0200 2004-05-06, Jony Rosenne wrote:
Cursive Hebrew, Rashi and Square Hebrew are only font variations and should
not be separately encoded.
I agree.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
At 11:28 -0700 2004-05-06, Richard Cook wrote:
On May 6, 2004, at 10:43 AM, Michael Everson wrote:
Unicode: sine qua non.
ìùàÍ·:?öîn
[U+7d71][U+4e00][U+78bc]:[U+7d82][U+58f9][U+99ac]
Más maith leath sin a rá
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
At 10:45 -0700 2004-05-06, Peter Kirk wrote:
On 05/05/2004 11:02, Michael Everson wrote:
At 09:15 -0700 2004-05-05, Peter Kirk wrote:
Soem American native speakers of English might have trouble
recognising English written in Celtic type script. You would find
much less such difficulty among
cript, such as
Indo-Europeanists and Hellenicists, who do not perceive all of the
West Semitic scripts to be unifiable, and who have a valid
requirement to differentiate them in encoding.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
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