Hi :)
+1
Also when users find functionality is broken in a newer release they often
revert to or remain with an older release.
If such users ask for advice from this mailing list it's often been the
advice that many here would give them. We would usually suggest they post
a bug-report and maybe
Hi Tanstaafl,
On Thu, 2014-10-02 at 15:23 -0400, Tanstaafl wrote:
You call the bug in question a major regression, and forget that the
people providing quality assurance are indeed volunteers. They either
catch a regression, or they don't.
Yes, but ...
a) surely you aren't denying the
Please can we move on... Charles S. (aka Tanstaafl) was given
instructions and has agreed to do what needs to be done and review the
corrected function for his use case with a current build of master
(4.4.0alpha0+)--and respond in the fdo#76565 BZ issue regards the UX
regression.
Hi :)
Just to deal with just 1 of those points ...
There is an archive of older releases so people can download out-of-date
versions if they want to.
It's not widely publicised (to avoid confusing people) but when people ask
this mailing list, and presumably other forums too, someone does
Hello Tom,
This archive that you speak of hosts unsupported and unpatched versions that
may have major vulnerabilities in them.
At no point in time do we recommend the use of this repository.
Thanks,
Charles.
On 10 octobre 2014 21:09:48 CEST, Tom Davies tomc...@gmail.com wrote:
Hi :)
Just to
Charles-H. Schulz wrote on 10-10-14 23:38:
At no point in time do we recommend the use of this repository.
It may be useful for testing purposes though.
(Although many QA volunteers nowadays work with bibisect
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Bibisect )
Cheers,
Cor
--
Cor Nouws
GPD key
On October 10, 2014 10:36:13 AM PDT, alphacrash wrote:
It's obvious the functionality list of Libreoffice is becomming overwhelming.
I wouldn't be surprised if maintaining the functionality list ended before the
days of OOo 1.1.3.
There was functionality broken in 1.1.4 that neither QA nor
Than you *very* much for the excellent and detailed explanation.
That clears up a lot of things for me about the process.
Follow-up...
In the bug UI, is there an easy way to get a list of bugs that have been
patched/fixed in master, that a user like me could browse, and pick
certain ones that I
Fair enough. I guess that belief was a remnant from the Sun/Openoffice days.
My apologies for a huge, incorrect assumption.
Also, I just realized there is a distinction that I have been making,
but that may have been missed and so may be causing a disconnect.
That distinction is, code that
Hi :)
Aww heck that'd be brilliant! If TDF could take Thunderbird under their
wing instead of leaving it with Mozilla.
Mozilla don't seem to appreciate just how many people rely on Thunderbird.
It's the best OpenSource email client around, in the opinion of a huge
percentage of people
I really do understand but I think you underestimate the complexity of a
project with more than 10,000,000 lines of code. That being said, I have
no additional feedback and we're not going to be forcing anything on
volunteers so . . . we can agree to disagree and know that this is how
the project
On 10/2/2014 3:11 PM, V Stuart Foote vstuart.fo...@utsa.edu wrote:
Charles S. (aka Tanstaafl) was given instructions
and has agreed to do what needs to be done and review the corrected function
for his use case with a current build of master (4.4.0alpha0+)--and respond
in the fdo#76565
Hi :)
The 4.4.0 is due out fairly soon, within a month or so.
It might be good to test-drive the alpha and beta release on 1 or 2
machines because they are generally stable enough for your own usage.
Obviously don't roll-out until after 4.4.1 at the earliest if your users
are likely to get
On 10/3/2014 12:36 PM, Tom Davies tomc...@gmail.com wrote:
It might be good to test-drive the alpha and beta release on 1 or 2
machines because they are generally stable enough for your own usage.
I'm doing that now with this release - will change to a beta once it is
available.
Obviously
On 10/3/2014 12:35 PM, Florian Reisinger flo...@libreoffice.org wrote:
Q: Why do not get bugs fixed at the moment they are reported?
A: Before devs see the bug, it goes through the hands of QA. We are
a small team and have a lot of backlog on reported bugs. (More bugs are
reported than we are
On 10/3/2014 12:25 PM, Tanstaafl tansta...@libertytrek.org wrote:
On 10/2/2014 3:11 PM, V Stuart Foote vstuart.fo...@utsa.edu wrote:
Charles S. (aka Tanstaafl) was given instructions
and has agreed to do what needs to be done and review the corrected function
for his use case with a current
Hi, answer inline,
Liebe Grüße, / Yours,
Florian Reisinger
Am 03.10.2014 um 19:08 schrieb Tanstaafl tansta...@libertytrek.org:
On 10/3/2014 12:35 PM, Florian Reisinger flo...@libreoffice.org wrote:
a) new bugs that are introduced with new code from existing/current
developers, and that
I have no clue how my comment was rude, it's pretty standard in open
source world to say that patches welcome or some variation.
I'm unsubscribing though as I don't have the time nor energy to continue
this and you seem to have more than enough of both to go around. Enjoy
ranting on the thread.
On 10/3/2014 1:27 PM, Florian Reisinger flo...@libreoffice.org wrote:
Bugs are bugs. Bugs are not meant to be introduced.
I agree... your point?
For developers and end users it one not matter, if the bug is in new
code or not.
True enough.
Even if it seems to be in new code, how do you
Hi :)
That all seems reasonable.
It also seems like a good idea to regularly market the QA team in the Users
List. New people with a variety of skills join this Mailing List all the
time and many are looking for a way of contributing back to the project.
It'd be kinda rude not to invite them in!
@Charles, *,
Tanstaafl wrote
Also, I'm confused...
Jan-Marek in the bug comment on August 17th - well before the 'Hard code
freeze' on September 1st for 4.3.2 (released on Sept 22nd - said that
the patch would show up in the daily builds after that.
So, I'm not complaining, I'm just
Le 01.10.2014 22:21, Tanstaafl a écrit :
On 10/1/2014 12:54 PM, Florian Reisinger flo...@libreoffice.org
wrote:
9 bugs for 30k €. That is a fair price...
Continuing reading the thread now...
PS: If a volunteer does not tackle your pet bug, you should get
someone to fix it (search for
Hi :)
This blame the user mentality belongs more properly in the MS and
proprietary world. It makes more sense in the OpenSource world but
generally i don't see it in other OpenSource projects (apart from
Evolution) and i'm quite glad of that. It's one of the many reasons i'm
glad to be mostly
Hi Tom,
Le 02/10/2014 12:52, Tom Davies a écrit :
Hi :)
This blame the user mentality belongs more properly in the MS and
proprietary world. It makes more sense in the OpenSource world but
generally i don't see it in other OpenSource projects (apart from
Evolution) and i'm quite glad of
On 10/1/2014 11:36 AM, jonathon toki.kant...@gmail.com wrote:
On October 1, 2014 8:03:05 AM PDT, Tanstaafl wrote:
Irrelevant. I cannot install 'Daily builds' on 60+ PCs.
What you do is once a week install and test a daily build, verifying
that issues that affect your organization have been
On 10/1/2014 9:33 PM, jonathon toki.kant...@gmail.com wrote:
What I describe is what any sysadmin worth their salt wold do, with
_all_ of the FLOSS an, where an when available, non-FLOSS, that is
deployed throughout the organization they work for.
Oh, I do, but I'm a one man shop, my time is
On 10/2/2014 1:22 AM, Florian Reisinger flo...@libreoffice.org wrote:
I am sorry if the following sounds a bit sharp: do not rant. That
won't help! If you want to have this bug fixes, pay for the fix. (Or
test if works on master I guess this bug should be fixed
relatively quick.
I am not
Hi Tom,
On 10/2/2014 12:52, Tom Davies wrote:
Hi :)
This blame the user mentality belongs more properly in the MS and
proprietary world.
I did not get the impression that the user is being blamed here by
anyone. Different people are trying to explain again and again how
OpenSource projects
On 10/2/2014 14:28, Tanstaafl wrote:
...
Suggesting that users should have to pay large sums of money to fix
major REGRESSIVE bugs is tantamount to EXTORTION.
No one suggested that users should have to pay. But it might be
interesting for a certain user to get a bug/feature/regression fixed
On 10/2/2014 4:34 AM, Charles-H. Schulz
charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org wrote:
The real extortion here is someone who expects people to work for his
own needs for free.
I am *not* talking about enhancement/feature requests, I am talking
about a major regression that should have never
On 10/2/2014 8:50 AM, Werner werner...@gmx.ch wrote:
His pet bug has a fix but he is refusing to test it.
Please refrain from posting falsehoods (you don't have a clue what I am
or have been doing).
The point, again, is it is irrelevant if there is a TEST BUILD that is
fixed. The point is we
@Charles, *,
Please would you verify that Jan-Marek's patch to Allow pasting into input
fields
http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/?id=3f26ab24e0bfd27645c97ff7915fba2db409930a
(comment 13 on fdo#76565
https://www.libreoffice.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=76565 ) fully
Hi Tom,
On 10/2/2014 15:08, Tom Davies wrote:
Hi :)
Yeh, it's good to know when a bug patch is released. It's a bit
complicated for most normal users to test it though so it's even
better to know when the patch is in a main release. I thought
bug-tracker did that already but i can imagine
On 10/2/2014 8:58 AM, Werner werner...@gmx.ch wrote:
No one suggested that users should have to pay.
You obviously haven't read this entire thread. Florian is trying to
extort money from me to fix this major regression.
But it might be interesting for a certain user to get a
Thanks Stuart,
I will do this asap - but most likely won't have time until this weekend.
That said - it is a simple test - either you can paste into Input
Fields, or you can't.
So, yes, I will confirm this at the latest this weekend.
Thanks for the links, I'll bookmark them for future
On 10/2/2014 9:25 AM, Werner werner...@gmx.ch wrote:
Most normal users will unfortunately have to be more patient until
their pet bug gets fixed.
Maybe english isn't your first language, and you don't realize how
condescending your comments are?
This isn't *just* 'someone's pet bug'. This is
On 10/2/2014 7:34 AM, Sophie gautier.sop...@gmail.com wrote:
He is not blamed for bringing his pet bug, but for not being proactive
on it and for waiting that a volunteer take care of it without helping
in any way to have it solved.
I have helped in every way that I can.
1. I am not a coder,
On 10/1/2014 11:18 AM, Werner werner...@gmx.ch wrote:
On 10/1/2014 17:03, Tanstaafl wrote:
On 10/1/2014 9:25 AM, Werner werner...@gmx.ch wrote:
On 10/1/2014 14:47, Tanstaafl wrote:
I didn't file it (it was already filed), but it is:
https://www.libreoffice.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=76565
On 10/2/2014 10:01 AM, Tanstaafl tansta...@libertytrek.org wrote:
Anything else is just begging for ... well, threads like this one.
I think everything has been said that needs to be said, so unless
someone else says something really ridiculous that hasn't already been
countered, I'll just let
Hello Tanstaafl,
Le 02.10.2014 16:05, Tanstaafl a écrit :
On 10/1/2014 11:18 AM, Werner werner...@gmx.ch wrote:
On 10/1/2014 17:03, Tanstaafl wrote:
On 10/1/2014 9:25 AM, Werner werner...@gmx.ch wrote:
On 10/1/2014 14:47, Tanstaafl wrote:
I didn't file it (it was already filed), but it is:
Hi Charles,
Le 02/10/2014 15:50, Tanstaafl a écrit :
On 10/2/2014 8:58 AM, Werner werner...@gmx.ch wrote:
No one suggested that users should have to pay.
You obviously haven't read this entire thread. Florian is trying to
extort money from me to fix this major regression.
ha ha, this one
Hi :)
I don't think that bullying users is particularly clever or productive.
Lets take a completely different scenario as an example. Lets say that
someone buys a can-opener. They use it and like it so at Christmas they
buy a new one as a present for a friend. The new one doesn't work. The
Le 02/10/2014 17:04, Tom Davies a écrit :
Hi :)
I don't think that bullying users is particularly clever or productive.
Lets take a completely different scenario as an example. Lets say that
someone buys a can-opener. They use it and like it so at Christmas they
buy a new one as a present
Le 02.10.2014 17:04, Tom Davies a écrit :
Hi :)
I don't think that bullying users is particularly clever or productive.
bullying?
Lets take a completely different scenario as an example. Lets say that
someone buys a can-opener. They use it and like it so at Christmas
they
buy a new one
Hi :)
Yeh, it's good to know when a bug patch is released. It's a bit
complicated for most normal users to test it though so it's even better to
know when the patch is in a main release. I thought bug-tracker did that
already but i can imagine why such notifications might be easily missed in
Le 02.10.2014 17:35, Tom Davies a écrit :
Hi :)
Why then do you not engage with actually helping people on the Users
Mailing List when they write in with some problem?
I am sorry, I am a volunteer and user support is not my specialty. I
handle marketing tasks (essentially social networks and
@Tom D., Sophi, Charles H., Cor, *,
Please stop!
Charles S. (aka Tanstaafl) has agreed to check out the function on master to
see if it has addressed the UX regression introduced with the new inline
field editing introduced at 4.2--when we have feed back we will revisit
fdo#76565 and
On October 2, 2014 6:17:50 AM PDT, Tanstaafl wrote:
The point, again, is it is irrelevant if there is a TEST BUILD that is fixed.
Daily builds _are_ test builds.
You know what features/functions are important in your environment:
* You test for that.
* Then you test for fixes to bugs that you
On October 2, 2014 6:50:02 AM PDT, Tanstaafl wrote:
You obviously haven't read this entire thread. Florian is trying to
extort money from me to fix this major regression.
Florian was pointing out that the way to ensure the regression is fixed is to
either do it yourself, or pay somebody to do
Hi :)
Actually it was Charles doing the bullying rather than you but you wee just
supporting him. There's no point in even trying to talk to Charles because
he is incapable of listening to anything other than his own opinion. With
other people, such as yourself, there is always a chance that
Hi :)
Why then do you not engage with actually helping people on the Users
Mailing List when they write in with some problem?
You seem to be saying that because it's a community project that every
person should be involved with every part of it. So, lets see you solve
some problems for users.
Hi,
Please find my answers inline
Liebe Grüße, / Yours,
Florian Reisinger
Am 02.10.2014 um 15:05 schrieb Tanstaafl tansta...@libertytrek.org:
On 10/2/2014 4:34 AM, Charles-H. Schulz
charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org wrote:
The real extortion here is someone who expects people to
In the words you have used:
Are you nuts - Devs fixed it, but you do not want to see that...
Liebe Grüße, / Yours,
Florian Reisinger
Am 02.10.2014 um 15:17 schrieb Tanstaafl tansta...@libertytrek.org:
On 10/2/2014 8:50 AM, Werner werner...@gmx.ch wrote:
His pet bug has a fix but he is
Hi,
Am 02.10.2014 um 18:20 schrieb jonathon toki.kant...@gmail.com:
On October 2, 2014 6:50:02 AM PDT, Tanstaafl wrote:
You obviously haven't read this entire thread. Florian is trying to
extort money from me to fix this major regression.
Florian was pointing out that the way to
@Florian, *,
Please can we move on... Charles S. (aka Tanstaafl) was given instructions
and has agreed to do what needs to be done and review the corrected function
for his use case with a current build of master (4.4.0alpha0+)--and respond
in the fdo#76565
On 10/2/2014 10:37 AM, Charles-H. Schulz
charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org wrote:
That said, maybe you didn't mean it as it sounded, so I'll give you the
benefit of the doubt...
Forgive me if I'm intrusive, but there is something I actually do not
understand in your situation. If you are
On 10/2/2014 12:04 PM, jonathon toki.kant...@gmail.com wrote:
The devs have no idea how people use the product, and thus only test
a minuscle subset of available features, functions, and
capabilities.
Relevant and true to an extent and in some cases, certainly, but I'm
sorry, cut/copy/paste
Um - well two points:
1. None of the paid developers are paid by TDF - we have 0 paid
developers on staff.
2. Most commits are still done by volunteers and many are done by paid
developers on their free time (ie. when they are volunteering).
On 10/02/2014 12:53 PM, Tanstaafl wrote:
On
I realise Stuart has asked us to let this go, as people are now mostly
arguing over what they think Tanstaafl won't do, but by now has said he
will, and thus the arguments are pointless, but some things said here
are just too wrong to be left alone...
I'm sure Florian doesn't realise quite what
@Paul, *,
This is a non-issue, please STOP.
But, just so it is clear in context Tanstaafl on this ML is the Charles in
fdo#76565 BZ
Paul-6 wrote
I may be wrong, but as far as I have understood from Tanstaafl's posts,
there was no notice on the bug tracker that there was a test build
+100,000! This has been a total waste of the time of the other members
of this mailing list. While this thread was raging, other topics also
has some fairly long threads. The only difference is that this thread
produced no results. Another thread at the same time resulted in the
building of
Hi,
On 10/1/2014 14:04, Tanstaafl wrote:
Hi Werner,
This regression has already been discussed here, with essentially the
same result (fix it yourself, pay someone else to fix it, or shut up
about it)...
That is not Sophie's view of it, see her response in the other thread.
A regression can
On 10/1/2014 8:21 AM, Werner werner...@gmx.ch wrote:
Hi,
On 10/1/2014 14:04, Tanstaafl wrote:
Hi Werner,
This regression has already been discussed here, with essentially the
same result (fix it yourself, pay someone else to fix it, or shut up
about it)...
That is not Sophie's view of
Not to mention this one:
https://www.libreoffice.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=65205
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On 10/1/2014 14:47, Tanstaafl wrote:
On 10/1/2014 8:21 AM, Werner werner...@gmx.ch wrote:
Hi,
On 10/1/2014 14:04, Tanstaafl wrote:
Hi Werner,
This regression has already been discussed here, with essentially the
same result (fix it yourself, pay someone else to fix it, or shut up
about
Hi :)
Again the main point that Taanstafl was making is ignored.
He was not saying you must fix my bug. That has already been covered in
previous threads and previous bug-reports.
All he was saying was there was at least 1 example of a bug that was
introduced in Fresh (well introduced in Still
On 10/1/2014 15:02, Tanstaafl wrote:
Not to mention this one:
https://www.libreoffice.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=65205
I would not categorize that as a regression for LO, it existed in OO
assuming the comments are correct.
I also find the exchange not efficient - why can't reporters and
@Charles, *,
Tanstaafl wrote
Not to mention this one:
https://www.libreoffice.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=65205
fdo#65205 - Print Component fails to recognize 'Tabloid' as 11x17, uses
Letter instead
Yes, please don't mention that one as it is NOT a regression. It has never
been correct,
On 10/1/2014 15:36, Tom Davies wrote:
Hi :)
Again the main point that Taanstafl was making is ignored.
I don't think it was ignored (see the issue), it was just made in the
wrong thread.
The rest doesn't advance us, does it?
Werner
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To unsubscribe e-mail to:
Tom Davies wrote on 01-10-14 15:36:
All he was saying was there was at least 1 example of a bug that was
introduced in Fresh
How many more would you like to know :)
It's always been that new versions come with new bugs.
That's the big advantage (?) of open source: it keeps you sharp/awake,
On 10/1/2014 16:01, Cor Nouws wrote:
...
Now of course it's nasty that Taanstafls bug isn't yet fixed.
According to the issue there is a patch and it has been committed some
time ago and should be in daily builds. BUT has the patch fixed the
problem - who knows!
Werner
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To unsubscribe
Tom Davies wrote on 01-10-14 16:33:
This is exactly why most normal users would call the Fresh branch
unstable.
Which again is ill-informed, because there is no principle difference
between Still and Fresh. But thanks, no need to repeat all this :)
--
Cor Nouws
GPD key ID: 0xB13480A6 -
On 10/1/2014 9:25 AM, Werner werner...@gmx.ch wrote:
On 10/1/2014 14:47, Tanstaafl wrote:
I didn't file it (it was already filed), but it is:
https://www.libreoffice.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=76565
Have you tested the daily build which included the patch committed on
2014-8-17?
On 10/1/2014 9:36 AM, Tom Davies tomc...@gmail.com wrote:
Maybe we should rename Still to Eggs and change Fresh to Omelette.
Both have advantages. trying to say that Omelette is really unbroken
eggs seems daft to me.
I'm a steak guy, so I prefer:
'Still' Sirloin
'Fresh' Tenderloin (or
On 10/1/2014 17:03, Tanstaafl wrote:
On 10/1/2014 9:25 AM, Werner werner...@gmx.ch wrote:
On 10/1/2014 14:47, Tanstaafl wrote:
I didn't file it (it was already filed), but it is:
https://www.libreoffice.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=76565
Have you tested the daily build which included the
Hi,
/me read this thread to this point and I have to say as a developer (not in the
LibO code base):
As a non developer (which Charles is) you easily underestimate the effort
needed.
I am advertising for Collabora now (there are others as well)
https://libreoffice-from-collabora.com/product/
Hi :)
Yes, we should re-educate the entire world before trying to get LibreOffice
out there! It'd be better than trying to doing something that makes
immediate sense to everyone intuitively!
Regards from
Tom :)
On 1 October 2014 16:02, Cor Nouws oo...@nouenoff.nl wrote:
Tom Davies wrote on
Hi,
You can find daily builds here: http://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/master/
Liebe Grüße, / Yours,
Florian Reisinger
Am 01.10.2014 um 16:12 schrieb Werner werner...@gmx.ch:
On 10/1/2014 16:01, Cor Nouws wrote:
...
Now of course it's nasty that Taanstafls bug isn't yet fixed.
On October 1, 2014 8:03:05 AM PDT, Tanstaafl wrote:
Irrelevant. I cannot install 'Daily builds' on 60+ PCs.
What you do is once a week install and test a daily build, verifying that
issues that affect your organization have been fixed, or if not, what did not
work correctly.
The ideal is for
On October 1, 2014 9:54:43 AM PDT, Florian Reisinger wrote:
L3 Support means Fixing bugs on the code
Do those bug fixes get rolled back into LibreOffice?
[ Assuming all the caveats about code acceptance by LibO are met. ]
jonathon
--
Your documents. Your language. Your way.
--
To
Tom Davies wrote on 01-10-14 18:02:
Yes, we should re-educate the entire world before trying to get LibreOffice
out there! It'd be better than trying to doing something that makes
immediate sense to everyone intuitively!
We need to explain how it works for LibreOffice. Did already someone
Hi :)
This is exactly why most normal users would call the Fresh branch
unstable.
If Fresh is 'sold' (ie described in marketing (such as on the website's
download page)) as being the only one available or 'sold' as anything
other than what it is then those users will say that it's the whole of
Hi,
From Collabora and other serious providers IMHO YES, unless the customer
demands otherwise (which would be not very wise, as it costs much much more),
Does that answer your question?
Liebe Grüße, / Yours,
Florian Reisinger
Am 01.10.2014 um 19:47 schrieb jonathon toki.kant...@gmail.com:
On 10/1/2014 12:54 PM, Florian Reisinger flo...@libreoffice.org wrote:
9 bugs for 30k €. That is a fair price...
Continuing reading the thread now...
PS: If a volunteer does not tackle your pet bug, you should get
someone to fix it (search for libreoffice L3 support for other
service
On October 1, 2014 10:41:07 AM PDT, Tom Davies wrote:
Blimey! Normal users need to do coding work?
The OP is complaining about a regression caused bug.
What I was describing was how to catch such critters _before_ they bevome a
problem, and vetify the bug fixes do fix the bug in question.
On October 1, 2014 11:04:46 AM PDT, Florian Reisinger wrote:
which would be not very wise,
That sounds a lot like the knight claiming to only have suffered from a flesh
wound.
Does that answer your question?
Yes, dankie.
jonathon
--
Your documents. Your language. Your way.
--
To
Hi,
You are a big company and you would buy MS Office for 100$ per year each. (500
seat it was? - 50 000$ per year.
And with LibO you can get a free product. If this is not enough you can
1) Do it yourself
2) Let it fix
@MS you cannot do that easily (1) and I do not know if MS fixes a bug for a
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