date:20120816

Hi :)
I think that on this particular list we should be open and allow people to use 
any style they want.  

Each
of the 3 main styles have merits but also have flaws.  I think this
particular list should 1.  Welcome people whatever style they use and
avoid demanding they change styles purely for us
2.  Let them see
there are other styles and hopefully help them learn-by-example the
best ways of handling those other styles so that people are prepared
when they reach other OpenSource mailing lists.  

One of my
hopes is that LO becomes as successful as Firefox and becomes another
gateway that helps people move into the OpenSource world.  


Great
product and technically accurate answers are only a part of that.  Many
times great products have failed and given way to far inferior product
due to an assumption that the best product will always win.  My hope is
that LO succeeds despite being a great product.  

Regards from
Tom :)  


--- On Thu, 16/8/12, Scott Castaline  wrote:

From: Scott Castaline 
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] [OT] Wood chucking
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Thursday, 16 August, 2012, 20:23

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Thank you Marc, couldn't have sad it better my self. Now let the flame
wars begin again about top vs. bottom posting. I'm normally a bottom
poster, but am trying to convert.

- From another 60 something old fart!


On 08/16/2012 12:55 PM, Marc Grober wrote:
> Give it a rest.
> 
> I am 60. I know what an RFQ and what an RFC is. I know what NATO is
> and what a BFF is, lol.   I know where I can go to find
> acronyms because I spent the time to go look. And if someone
> references zotero,  instead of asking a dozen times what it is, I
> can spend two seconds finding out for myself. The same applies with
> respect to AOO,  which one could find, knowing the context, in 15
> seconds. And I know that no matter what term I might use on
> this list,  someone will argue that they want to know what the term
> means and eventually that I used the term inappropriately.
> 
> Like "Engineering", for example. Let's argue about what an engineer
> is. The neighbor kid thinks an engineer is someone who runs a
> train. Someone want to argue that? I think the Roman Army was
> staffed with engineers. Someone is going to tell me I am mistaken
> because Roman army did ENGineering, not engiNEERing?  SOmeone else
> wants to suggest that today engineers are "Scientists"?  Not
> according to the spokesman for the Higgs Boson team, lol 
> http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/borowitzreport/2012/08/mars-rover-should-not-get-so-much-attention-say-higgs-boson-scientists.html
>
> 
, rofl.  but, come on,  this is a grgeat place to discuss anything
> other than LibreOffice!
> 
> I apologize if I appear rude (yes, I am aware of the Latin root
> and would like to spend some considerable time on this list
> discussing the use of "rude" as meaning impolite, as opposed to
> unlearned,  but think doing that in a new thread would be
> preferable, though we could argue about the appropriateness of a
> new thread to accomplish same here for a bit),  but I have a burr
> under my saddle, as it were, and it seems to me if one is going to
> chew some butt,  one might as well chew as much butt as one can
> chew  kind of a how much wood can a wood chuck chuck thing.
> (no, this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Q6Ti9xCX_M - has 
> nothing to do with it)
> 
> If one looks at the bandwidth on this list I think one would note,
> on a regular basis, that a substantial portion is spent arguing
> over communication style (as is the case with this epistle.)
> 
> Give it a rest.
> 

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RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: Excuse me, but your opinion is simplyunimportant. Start over and you can expect more of the same.

Hi :)
A dev might have more joy with the very functional GMane interface rather than 
the gui prettiness of Nabble.

Even so i think this list is too high-volume to be data-mined for the required 
information and anyway it's extremely rare that specific bug reports are 
referenced either by name (however vague and inaccurate) or number.  

Where threads do mention bug-report numbers it's done in a very inconsistent 
way, sometimes as part of a url sometimes with or without a # (as in bug #blah) 
and sometimes just the number so you would have had to be following the thread 
to realise it was a bug-report number.  

That might all sound very negative but this list is mainly trying to solve 
problems partly to avoid people having to post bug-reports.  Often answers here 
will be work-arounds or explain quirks or why things work slightly differently 
in LO than other products a new users might have used previously.  It's very 
rare that people ask a question here that results in a bug-report getting 
posted and even then it's usually a feature request or wish-list item.  


So, although i think your idea to try to do a bit of data-mining is good i 
think it's impractical for this list and that Michael Meeks handled it best by 
just asking for people to list specific examples.  

Good luck all and much appreciated
Regards from
Tom :)  


--- On Fri, 17/8/12, V Stuart Foote  wrote:

From: V Stuart Foote 
Subject: RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: Excuse me, but your opinion is 
simplyunimportant. Start over and you can expect more of the same.
To: michael.me...@suse.com, users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Friday, 17 August, 2012, 2:05

Michael,
 
It is pretty rare for specifics of bugs to be entered on the Users list, where 
there might have a passing comment that a bug would be or had been filed. But 
often no additional details of the bug in the discussion. But, that said, the 
threads are pretty descriptive.
 
Being a new subscriber, maybe the Nabble web interface would be of use to 
efficiently identify substantive issues that may have associated bugs.
 
http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Users-f1639498.html
 
Stuart
 



From: Michael Meeks [mailto:michael.me...@suse.com]
Sent: Thu 8/16/2012 11:50 AM


        One thing that frustrates me, since I've only just subscribed is that
we seem to be talking about a load of bugs with no numbers I can easily
lookup.

        I'd greatly appreciate it if some kind soul could scrape the thread in
their mailbox for a list of bug links to the most significant issues and
aggregate them in a single mail - so I can go and triage them.

 

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RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: Excuse me, but your opinion is simplyunimportant. Start over and you can expect more of the same.

2012-08-16 Thread V Stuart Foote

Michael,
 
It is pretty rare for specifics of bugs to be entered on the Users list, where 
there might have a passing comment that a bug would be or had been filed. But 
often no additional details of the bug in the discussion. But, that said, the 
threads are pretty descriptive.
 
Being a new subscriber, maybe the Nabble web interface would be of use to 
efficiently identify substantive issues that may have associated bugs.
 
http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Users-f1639498.html
 
Stuart
 



From: Michael Meeks [mailto:michael.me...@suse.com]
Sent: Thu 8/16/2012 11:50 AM


One thing that frustrates me, since I've only just subscribed is that
we seem to be talking about a load of bugs with no numbers I can easily
lookup.

I'd greatly appreciate it if some kind soul could scrape the thread in
their mailbox for a list of bug links to the most significant issues and
aggregate them in a single mail - so I can go and triage them.

 

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Reply settings on this list have changed

2012-08-16 Thread Michael Manning

I strongly support the change.  It is the fail-safe option.  Users of this
list know how to use their email to send back to the list

regards

Mike

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[libreoffice-users] Re: Reply settings on this list have changed

2012-08-16 Thread NoOp

On 08/16/2012 07:14 AM, anne-ology wrote:
>Thanks for clearing up that acronym.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=RFC

You can repeat the same on Google, Yahoo!, Bing, Wikipedia et al.

> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 11:53 PM, Jay Lozier  wrote:
> 
> On 08/15/2012 08:48 PM, anne-ology wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> (2) Just what - or who - is RFC ???
>>>
>> Request for comments
>>
>>
>>>
> 



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Zotero Integration with LO [Proposition / Feature Request?]

2012-08-16 Thread Anthony Easthope

I actually agree with that. It makes sense and will mean more people
will become aware of both projects which is waht I suppose we really
need/want? 

On Thu, 16 Aug 2012, at 02:34 PM, Tom Davies wrote:
> Hi :)
> I think TDF, just like other companies and organisations, could have more
> than 1 product.  It might be best if they bring their community and
> structures with them and retain a lot of independence and work-flow but
> obviously there might be some things that TDF could offer or would want
> such projects to incorporate.  I had thought such projects might include
> database back-ends, Gnome Office (if that needs a home), Calligra Office
> (although they are probably well organised already).  
> 
> Probably it's all been discussed on the discussion's list here but this
> is an exciting time for TDF and there are a lot of opportunities for
> planning road-maps into the future.  
> Regards from
> Tom :)  
> 
> 
> --- On Tue, 14/8/12, Marc Grober  wrote:
> 
> From: Marc Grober 
> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Zotero Integration with LO [Proposition
> / Feature Request?]
> To: 
> Cc: "users@global.libreoffice.org" 
> Date: Tuesday, 14 August, 2012, 19:16
> 
> See zotero.org 
> You will find a few videos
> It is what you might think of as a bibliographic tool. I recommend it to
> all my students (along with FF and LO.) It also provides for sharing of
> collaborati libraries. I would have to suggest that the zotero community
> might appear to be less prone to spatting and more cohesive, and that
> would be my only heartburn in a closer relationship. 
> 
> 
> 
> On Aug 14, 2012, at 5:20 AM, anne-ology  wrote:
> 
> >       Could you please explain what is Zotero?
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 12:52 AM, Anthony Easthope 
> > wrote:
> > 
> > Hi Guys
> >> 
> >> I have a proposition for you all and am not sure if you would class it as
> >> a feature request or a partnership suggestion.
> >> 
> >> My idea is as follows:  The Document Foundation partners up with Roy
> >> Rosenzwieg Center for History and New Media and work together on making The
> >> Zotero project an integral part of the LibreOffice frame work.
> >> 
> >> I have the feeling that I might be treading on thin ground here but I will
> >> outline my reasons as to why this could work below
> >> 
> >>  * Libreoffice is perfect for use within university's / schools as it can
> >> be easily distributed thanks to the GNU license the same goes
> >>    for Zotero
> >>  * The use of Zotero could replace the inbuilt Bibliography & referencing
> >> tool as the current one is quite bewildering to use for
> >>    many people
> >>  * Zotero has a nice GUI and can work in with Firefox via an extension
> >> which is also open source so at the same time we are not just
> >>    supporting one open-source initiative but three!
> >>  * Zotero is open to suggestions and it appears to other projects as well
> >>  * Increased awareness of The Document Foundation program via Zotero
> >> related media attention (Vice Versa for LO and Zotero)
> >>  * it would bring a fresh feel to the whole project and could even mean a
> >> new approach and reinvigorate the project
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Let me Know what you think and feel free to shoot me down if you so wish!
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Regards
> >> 
> >> Anthony Easthope
> >> 
> >> 
> > 
> > -- 
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> > deleted
> > 
> 
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-- 
  
  antiso...@myopera.com

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Writer styles keep disappearing

2012-08-16 Thread Kevin O'Brien


Thank you, Jean-Francois. I will get on that right away.

On 08/16/2012 03:35 PM, Jean-Francois Nifenecker wrote:

Le 16/08/2012 21:09, Kevin O'Brien a écrit :

I have several times gone through making and customizing the styles I
use in LibreOffice Writer, and each time I come back I discover that all
of my work has disappeared. The custom styles I created are gone, and
the modifications I made to the built-in styles have been discarded. I
assume I am doing something wrong here, and I'd like to know what it is
so that I can create what I need once and for all.



By default, styles are created within a document. So, I'd guess they 
should be still there.


If you want to make your carefully crafted styles global, you should 
derive a template from the document where your styles lie. See the 
File / Templates menu.


Once you've got your styles into a template, you may make that 
template the default one : same menu as above. Then, any time you open 
a new document, your styles are there. Et voila.


HTH,



--
Kevin B. O'Brien
zwil...@zwilnik.com


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Writer styles keep disappearing

2012-08-16 Thread Jean-Francois Nifenecker


Le 16/08/2012 21:09, Kevin O'Brien a écrit :

I have several times gone through making and customizing the styles I
use in LibreOffice Writer, and each time I come back I discover that all
of my work has disappeared. The custom styles I created are gone, and
the modifications I made to the built-in styles have been discarded. I
assume I am doing something wrong here, and I'd like to know what it is
so that I can create what I need once and for all.



By default, styles are created within a document. So, I'd guess they 
should be still there.


If you want to make your carefully crafted styles global, you should 
derive a template from the document where your styles lie. See the File 
/ Templates menu.


Once you've got your styles into a template, you may make that template 
the default one : same menu as above. Then, any time you open a new 
document, your styles are there. Et voila.


HTH,
--
Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux

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Re: [libreoffice-users] [OT] Wood chucking

2012-08-16 Thread Scott Castaline

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Thank you Marc, couldn't have sad it better my self. Now let the flame
wars begin again about top vs. bottom posting. I'm normally a bottom
poster, but am trying to convert.

- From another 60 something old fart!


On 08/16/2012 12:55 PM, Marc Grober wrote:
> Give it a rest.
> 
> I am 60. I know what an RFQ and what an RFC is. I know what NATO is
> and what a BFF is, lol.   I know where I can go to find
> acronyms because I spent the time to go look. And if someone
> references zotero,  instead of asking a dozen times what it is, I
> can spend two seconds finding out for myself. The same applies with
> respect to AOO,  which one could find, knowing the context, in 15
> seconds. And I know that no matter what term I might use on
> this list,  someone will argue that they want to know what the term
> means and eventually that I used the term inappropriately.
> 
> Like "Engineering", for example. Let's argue about what an engineer
> is. The neighbor kid thinks an engineer is someone who runs a
> train. Someone want to argue that? I think the Roman Army was
> staffed with engineers. Someone is going to tell me I am mistaken
> because Roman army did ENGineering, not engiNEERing?  SOmeone else
> wants to suggest that today engineers are "Scientists"?  Not
> according to the spokesman for the Higgs Boson team, lol 
> http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/borowitzreport/2012/08/mars-rover-should-not-get-so-much-attention-say-higgs-boson-scientists.html
>
> 
, rofl.  but, come on,  this is a grgeat place to discuss anything
> other than LibreOffice!
> 
> I apologize if I appear rude (yes, I am aware of the Latin root
> and would like to spend some considerable time on this list
> discussing the use of "rude" as meaning impolite, as opposed to
> unlearned,  but think doing that in a new thread would be
> preferable, though we could argue about the appropriateness of a
> new thread to accomplish same here for a bit),  but I have a burr
> under my saddle, as it were, and it seems to me if one is going to
> chew some butt,  one might as well chew as much butt as one can
> chew  kind of a how much wood can a wood chuck chuck thing.
> (no, this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Q6Ti9xCX_M - has 
> nothing to do with it)
> 
> If one looks at the bandwidth on this list I think one would note,
> on a regular basis, that a substantial portion is spent arguing
> over communication style (as is the case with this epistle.)
> 
> Give it a rest.
> 

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[libreoffice-users] Writer styles keep disappearing

2012-08-16 Thread Kevin O'Brien

I have several times gone through making and customizing the styles I 
use in LibreOffice Writer, and each time I come back I discover that all 
of my work has disappeared. The custom styles I created are gone, and 
the modifications I made to the built-in styles have been discarded. I 
assume I am doing something wrong here, and I'd like to know what it is 
so that I can create what I need once and for all.


Thank you,

--
Kevin B. O'Brien
zwil...@zwilnik.com


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[libreoffice-users] Re: scalc 3.6 date format problem

2012-08-16 Thread Andreas Säger


Am 16.08.2012 19:05, Shaun Devlin wrote:

Version 3.6 of Scalc treats a date entered in the format dd-MMM-yy as
text, not as a date which can be displayed in a user selectable format.
This is not true if the date is entered as mm/dd/yy or -mm-dd.

This is a change from 3.5.X and I consider it a bug.

Shaun Devlin



No, it's considered as a new feature. Another thing that has been fixed 
without being broken.



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Re: [libreoffice-users] turn off header/footer default popup?

2012-08-16 Thread Jean-Francois Nifenecker


Le 16/08/2012 13:00, Dan a écrit :


  I think that the non-printable characters is Control+F10. Using
F10 opens the File Menu in LO for me.



Boy! Do I feel silly. Thanks for the correction, Dan.

--
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[libreoffice-users] scalc 3.6 date format problem

2012-08-16 Thread Shaun Devlin

Version 3.6 of Scalc treats a date entered in the format dd-MMM-yy as 
text, not as a date which can be displayed in a user selectable format.

This is not true if the date is entered as mm/dd/yy or -mm-dd.

This is a change from 3.5.X and I consider it a bug.

Shaun Devlin

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Excuse me, but your opinion is simply unimportant. Start over and you can expect more of the same.

I put the bug back into Resolved->Invalid status.
Done. Excuse me while I go abuse myself :-)

On 8/16/12 9:03 AM, Marc Grober wrote:
> And here is the best bit:
> 
> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35361
> --- Comment #42 from Björn Michaelsen 
> 2012-08-16 16:58:22 UTC ---
> @Marc:
> Seeing you boasting here:
> 
> http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Excuse-me-but-your-opinion-is-simply-unimportant-Start-over-and-you-can-expect-more-of-the-same-tp4001269p4001858.html
> 
> that you knew you are creating extra work for the volunteers on the QA
> team with intend is really disgusting given the workload of this team.
> 
> Also note that the version is clearly documented to be _first_ version
> showing the bug:
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA-FAQ
> 
> Even if it wasnt documented: If you take a moment to think about this,
> there is also no other way the version field can be used: If the bug is
> not present in the latest release the bug is closed anyway. If the bug
> is present in the latest release, the bug is open and and the only
> relevant information is: since when?
> 
> Please refain from continuing with abusive behaviour like the one you
> are boasting about. I dont think repeating such behaviour is going to be
> tolerated.
> 


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Excuse me, but your opinion is simply unimportant. Start over and you can expect more of the same.

And here is the best bit:

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35361
--- Comment #42 from Björn Michaelsen 
2012-08-16 16:58:22 UTC ---
@Marc:
Seeing you boasting here:

http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Excuse-me-but-your-opinion-is-simply-unimportant-Start-over-and-you-can-expect-more-of-the-same-tp4001269p4001858.html

that you knew you are creating extra work for the volunteers on the QA
team with intend is really disgusting given the workload of this team.

Also note that the version is clearly documented to be _first_ version
showing the bug:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA-FAQ

Even if it wasnt documented: If you take a moment to think about this,
there is also no other way the version field can be used: If the bug is
not present in the latest release the bug is closed anyway. If the bug
is present in the latest release, the bug is open and and the only
relevant information is: since when?

Please refain from continuing with abusive behaviour like the one you
are boasting about. I dont think repeating such behaviour is going to be
tolerated.

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Excuse me, but your opinion is simply unimportant. Start over and you can expect more of the same.

The latest from Florian in misspelled CAPS (which now brings us to the
fact that the devs have touched this bug some 8 times without ever
bothering to actually read it) - Bravo Florian, we read you 5 by 5:


https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35361
Florian Reisinger  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC|reisi...@gmail.com  |
Version|3.5.2 release   |3.3.1 release

--- Comment #41 from Florian Reisinger  2012-08-16
16:12:33 UTC ---
PLEASE LEAVE IT AT THE OLDEST REPRODUCABLE VERSION - Thanks


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Re: [libreoffice-users] [OT] Wood chucking

Give it a rest.

I am 60. I know what an RFQ and what an RFC is. I know what NATO is and
what a BFF is, lol. I know where I can go to find acronyms because
I spent the time to go look. And if someone references zotero, instead
of asking a dozen times what it is, I can spend two seconds finding out
for myself. The same applies with respect to AOO, which one could find,
knowing the context, in 15 seconds. And I know that no matter what
term I might use on this list, someone will argue that they want to
know what the term means and eventually that I used the term
inappropriately.

Like "Engineering", for example. Let's argue about what an engineer is.
The neighbor kid thinks an engineer is someone who runs a train.
Someone want to argue that? I think the Roman Army was staffed with
engineers. Someone is going to tell me I am mistaken because Roman army
did ENGineering, not engiNEERing? SOmeone else wants to suggest that
today engineers are "Scientists"? Not according to the spokesman for
the Higgs Boson team, lol
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/borowitzreport/2012/08/mars-rover-should-not-get-so-much-attention-say-higgs-boson-scientists.html
, rofl. but, come on, this is a grgeat place to discuss anything
other than LibreOffice!

I apologize if I appear rude (yes, I am aware of the Latin root and
would like to spend some considerable time on this list discussing the
use of "rude" as meaning impolite, as opposed to unlearned, but think
doing that in a new thread would be preferable, though we could argue
about the appropriateness of a new thread to accomplish same here for a
bit), but I have a burr under my saddle, as it were, and it seems to me
if one is going to chew some butt, one might as well chew as much butt
as one can chew kind of a how much wood can a wood chuck chuck
thing. (no, this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Q6Ti9xCX_M - has
nothing to do with it)

If one looks at the bandwidth on this list I think one would note, on a
regular basis, that a substantial portion is spent arguing over
communication style (as is the case with this epistle.)

Give it a rest.

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Excuse me, but your opinion is simply unimportant. Start over and you can expect more of the same.

2012-08-16 Thread Michael Meeks

Hi Marc,

On Thu, 2012-08-16 at 08:23 -0800, Marc Grober wrote:
> But the devs have spent more time fiddling with how it is listed 

One thing that frustrates me, since I've only just subscribed is that
we seem to be talking about a load of bugs with no numbers I can easily
lookup.

I'd greatly appreciate it if some kind soul could scrape the thread in
their mailbox for a list of bug links to the most significant issues and
aggregate them in a single mail - so I can go and triage them.

> did you see any comment from any dev on THIS list apologizing to
> users, acknowledging issues, etc. ?

I just subscribed ;-) [ for some reason my original subscription
bounced ]; if an apology is missing here it is:

Sorry !

The aim is not to annoy users, but to close a large number of old bugs
with (apparently) no response to them, that may have been mis-classified
in the past, due to random technical reasons (around not being able to
set bugs back to the UNCONFIRMED state) that will not affect new bugs.

We don't want to upset people. Having said that - I'm reasonably
optimistic that people watching bugs that have had 4x duplicate messages
(an unfortunate mistake) closing them will notice ;-) and re-open any
bugs that they care about - at least that is my hope; so it's not the
end of the world.

It should be noted, that doing this sort of mass-close is a response to
having a QA team which has no time to do a massive manual triage of each
of these old / indeterminate issues to see if they are already fixed /
obsolete etc.

There is a fairly easy solution here though - for all those who
complain about the consequences of the problem to get stuck into helping
out with triage / reproducing and confirming bugs etc.

Of course, suddenly reminding a load of people that their bug is still
not fixed generates some angst - but bugs don't magically fix themselves
over time, it takes real work :-)

Apologies,

Michael.

-- 
michael.me...@suse.com  <><, Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Reply settings on this list have changed

2012-08-16 Thread James Knott


Tanstaafl wrote:

On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 9:24 AM, webmaster-Kracked_P_P wrote:

With this mix of system being used for various tasks, I would have a
mess if I tried to read emails on more than one system, even if I
could get a sync system to work properly between the various Windows
and Ubuntu systems.


This is what IMAP is for. I have 20+ accounts set up on 5 different 
computers, and work with the same mail on all of them, and they all 
stay in sync because of teh way IMAP works.


IMAP is the only way to do email, especially if you can host your own 
server.




I agree.  I have my own IMAP server at home.  It makes no difference 
which computer or email program I use, all the mail is synced.  It even 
works with my smart phone and tablet.  I also use Google Contacts to 
sync my address books everywhere.



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Excuse me, but your opinion is simply unimportant. Start over and you can expect more of the same.

On 8/16/12 7:07 AM, Tom Davies wrote:
> Gr, can't you just change it back? 

That is not the point, Tom.

This bug was only really a matter of a file having been dropped. But the
devs have spent more time fiddling with how it is listed than if they
had just added the missing file. More importantly, the most recent
change was apparently made because in trying to reopen the bug I failed
to do things the way they want them done,  though there is no
documentation of how that is supposed to work.

Specifically, the documentation states:
"Version: The "Version" field is usually used for versions of a product
which have been released, and is set to indicate which versions of a
Component have the particular problem the bug report is about."

In many bug systems that means the reporter can in fact select all the
versions in which the errors appears,  but this product does not allow
that.  So what is one to do? Especially where a bug has been closed.  I
reopened and set the version to the most recent version in which I
observed the bug. I thought this would be reasonable especially in as
much as the history reflects the initial appearance of the bug. So then
a dev steps in and changes the version, stating, "'Version' is most old
version where bug is reproducible. Not current version. Changing to
3.3.1 back"

I DID then change it back to 3.5.2 and commented that devs should spend
time writing tracker context help instead of fiddling with bugs that
were never going to be fixed.  My response IS NOT productive (as was
initially noted in this list, lol) but isn't it so much fun to be
passive aggressive?

> Don't go!  If you do you will be missed! 

Thanks for that (and I did get a chuckle from Marc Paré's reference to
the wiki provisions on top vs bottom posting, lol) but life is too short
to piss into the wind.  It is one thing to work collaboratively with
people who see things differently, another to labor in the dark with no
one listening - did you see any comment from any dev on THIS list
apologizing to users, acknowledging issues, etc? Maybe if we start a
discussion about whether paragraphs are appropriate in list posts we
could attract some attention?

I don't know that I am "going" anywhere.  but I am certainly not
interested in putting in time to run down bugs if this is how users are
treated.

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Reply settings on this list have changed

   How old do you think engineering is?
   granted this term existed, yet the definition has changed
post-industrialization.

   Here are a couple sites which seem to be fairly accurate
historically -

   http://www.creatingtechnology.org/history.htm


http://www.streetdirectory.com/travel_guide/192894/careers_and_job_hunting/a_brief_history_of_engineering.html

   Also, what you described would not have been necessary until the age
of middle-managers - ca. mid 20C, post WWII



On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 10:34 AM, Jay Lozier  wrote:

On 08/16/2012 10:50 AM, anne-ology wrote:
>
>> brilliantly said.
>>
>> And may I add this use of acronyms is silly ... are we supposed to
>> memorize each new one  ???
>>here's supposedly a complete listing -
>> http://www.all-acronyms.com/
>>
>> Yes, growing up pre-computers was different from you post-computer
>> youngsters, but bear in mind that using acronyms confuses the
>> communication
>> since many of these are duplicates  ;-)
>>
> I should have noted that RFC and the related RFQ (request for quotation)
> are very old engineering acronyms (pre PC) used to describe stages in
> project development. RFC is asking the reviewers to review a draft
> proposal/design/specifications prior to formally finalizing the design.
> Reviewers may be any interested party involved in the project. There may
> not be a formal RFC issued of the complete design/proposal/specifications
> but various interested parties are often asked to review at least parts of
> the design.  RFQ is formally asking vendors to bid on the finalized
> specifications.
>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 2:11 AM, Tom Davies 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi :)
>>
>>> Bottom posting is a good way to alienate most of the target
>>> market-shares that LO needs to break into.  Many new people are
>>> completely unaware that there is any other way of posting other than
>>> top-posting because top posting is so widespread.
>>>
>>> Also there are a ridiculous number of rules, such as how and when to
>>> snip,
>>> that
>>> makes it more time consuming and difficult for new people that have
>>> only joined the list to deal with one or 2 specific questions, not to
>>> change their entire life-style.
>>>
>>> How about we 1st get the world using LibreOffice and THEN start opening
>>> people to new ways of doing things?
>>>
>>> Oh and this new way of having to use "Reply to all" instead of "Reply" is
>>> brilliant!  It makes it more difficult to keep things on-list and more
>>> difficult for new arrivals to the list.  Perfect!!
>>> Regards from
>>> Tom :)
>>>
>>>

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Reply settings on this list have changed

2012-08-16 Thread Jay Lozier


On 08/16/2012 10:36 AM, Tom Davies wrote:

Hi :)
I am not sure about current usage levels but 2 areas that Sun had problems 
trying to break into were
1.  Windows users
2.  US and England etc
Europe, Brazil and many other places were quite happy to use a product that 
wasn't primarily about making huge profits for a certain US company.

There is always a risk, when going for new markets, of losing stable and existing 
loyal customers.  Would gaining a lot of Windows users annoy the Gnu&Linux 
users so much they would leave?

(It might be worth noting that the "extremist" group (probably not the way extremist is 
usually used these days), the "Free Software Foundation" and Richard Stallman backed LO where 
they would never back OOo (OOo is what AOO used to be called under Sun) so i doubt Gnu&Linux users 
would leave!  More likely the opposite and tons more would continue to keep joining.)

Regards from
Tom :)
My observation is that LO/AOO will be your default office suites for 
Linux users because we support ODF and MSO file formats as well as many 
others. While MSO formats can be problematical, they are extremely common.


For Mac and Windows users, you have more options both commercial and 
FOSS that support MSO file formats. IMHO the problems here are lack of 
awareness and the perception  of "geekiness" being required to install 
LO. Many Windows users rely on friends or family to help maintain their 
systems, install software, etc. I suspect most LO users are more 
comfortable with working on their system since LO requires a user 
install of either LO itself or the Linux distro. Note, I am not saying 
installing LO is difficult but that many potential users are afraid to 
personally install any software on their computers. Installing LO makes 
one a comparatively advanced computer user; you can actually install 
software on a computer.


IMHO, the real problems for LO are the overall size of the user base, 
reliance on word of mouth marketing, and lack of support by hardware 
vendors. The user base size means that many potential users are unaware 
of LO and have never seen it used. There are regional differences where 
LO is stronger. Word of mouth advertising is actually very effective but 
not necessarily very fast. Most hardware vendors (Dell, HP, Lenovo, etc) 
do not normally install LO on the retail machines but often install a 
crippled/trial version of MSO. This may change if MS continues to move 
into device manufacturing, hardware vendors may promote/install other 
products to avoid supporting MS.



--- On Tue, 14/8/12, Steve Edmonds  wrote:

From: Steve Edmonds 
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Reply settings on this list have changed
To: "anne-ology" 
Cc: "Mark LaPierre" , users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Tuesday, 14 August, 2012, 1:03

I primarily use SUSE but also osx and win. I support Anne.
If (as an example only) 80% of LO potential is win based and this is the
target for growth then to be non-exclusive and encourage advancement in
the win platform the support list should cater for the most common win.
mail applications. Browser (gmail, hotmail, yahoo, etc.) or outlook.

If we are trying to stifle growth and keep LO in the linux club, then
make it easy for linux users and less convenient for others.

Steve

On 2012-08-14 11:55, anne-ology wrote:

  you're mis-informed; I, for one, have never used a Linus-based
machine; and I bet I'm not the only one.



On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 6:36 PM, Mark LaPierre  wrote:

On 08/12/2012 12:31 PM, Florian Effenberger wrote:

Hello,

this is to inform you that the reply settings on this list have changed
(so-called "Reply to mangling" has been disabled).

So far, e-mails had set a reply-to the mailing list address. In other
words, with any e-mail client, replies to e-mails on the list were
automatically sent directly to the list.

In the past, this lead to two major problems:

1. Several times, people have sent direct replies to the public list,
where deleting them is nearly impossible. I remember at least one case
where confidential information has been sent out that caused lots of
worries for the sender and his employer. This happened because people
hit "reply" and thought it would reply to the sender only.

2. I have heard complaints in the past from people, stating that working
with the non-developer lists of LibreOffice is a pain for them, because
of reply-to mangling, resulting in a lack of communication. This also
led to the fact that numerous tasks were done by the same people, who
needed to spend more and more time, instead of sharing the work burden
with others. While I do not fully believe this argument, there's just
one way to find out...

Therefore, I have applied a change:

Replies to e-mails from the list now only go to the original sender. You
either need to use the "reply to all" feature of your e-mail program, or
- preferably - the "reply to list"/"reply to group" feature, which will
direct replies directly to the list.

T

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Reply settings on this list have changed

2012-08-16 Thread Jay Lozier


On 08/16/2012 10:50 AM, anne-ology wrote:

brilliantly said.

And may I add this use of acronyms is silly ... are we supposed to
memorize each new one  ???
   here's supposedly a complete listing -
http://www.all-acronyms.com/

Yes, growing up pre-computers was different from you post-computer
youngsters, but bear in mind that using acronyms confuses the communication
since many of these are duplicates  ;-)
I should have noted that RFC and the related RFQ (request for quotation) 
are very old engineering acronyms (pre PC) used to describe stages in 
project development. RFC is asking the reviewers to review a draft 
proposal/design/specifications prior to formally finalizing the design. 
Reviewers may be any interested party involved in the project. There may 
not be a formal RFC issued of the complete 
design/proposal/specifications but various interested parties are often 
asked to review at least parts of the design.  RFQ is formally asking 
vendors to bid on the finalized specifications.




On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 2:11 AM, Tom Davies  wrote:

Hi :)

Bottom posting is a good way to alienate most of the target
market-shares that LO needs to break into.  Many new people are
completely unaware that there is any other way of posting other than
top-posting because top posting is so widespread.

Also there are a ridiculous number of rules, such as how and when to snip,
that
makes it more time consuming and difficult for new people that have
only joined the list to deal with one or 2 specific questions, not to
change their entire life-style.

How about we 1st get the world using LibreOffice and THEN start opening
people to new ways of doing things?

Oh and this new way of having to use "Reply to all" instead of "Reply" is
brilliant!  It makes it more difficult to keep things on-list and more
difficult for new arrivals to the list.  Perfect!!
Regards from
Tom :)



From: Marc Paré 
Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: Reply settings on this list have changed
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Thursday, 16 August, 2012, 7:03

Hi Anne and Jay,

Le 2012-08-16 00:53, Jay Lozier a écrit :


(3) Thank you for standing up against these list-members who respond
at the bottom !

Actually there are two different philosophies. Top posting works best
when only a few people are actively involved in the conversation and all
are actively following the thread. For most exchanges this works very
well because it mimics a verbal conversation.

Bottom posting is done on lists because someone may not have seen the
initial post and the context of the answers and other follow up posts.
The idea is that the thread can be followed with the oldest post on top
to latest on the bottom as if you are reading a report.

Inline posting is sometimes done when it is easier to answer each issue
raised.

I did a combination of inline and bottom posting

Also snip is used to indicate that part of the original has been deleted
by the poster




Please review
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette#Top-Posting_vs_Bottom-Postingfor 
more information on posting.

This topic has been covered several times on this list. FYI, we recommend
bottom posting if possible along with inline posting, in order to preserve
the flow of discussion for all.

It just makes it easier for everyone to work on the lists if we adopt the
same way of responding to email.

Thanks for your help.

Cheers,

Marc




--
Jay Lozier
jsloz...@gmail.com


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Reply settings on this list have changed

2012-08-16 Thread Tanstaafl


On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 9:24 AM, webmaster-Kracked_P_P wrote:

With this mix of system being used for various tasks, I would have a
mess if I tried to read emails on more than one system, even if I
could get a sync system to work properly between the various Windows
and Ubuntu systems.


This is what IMAP is for. I have 20+ accounts set up on 5 different 
computers, and work with the same mail on all of them, and they all stay 
in sync because of teh way IMAP works.


IMAP is the only way to do email, especially if you can host your own 
server.


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Excuse me, but your opinion is simply unimportant. Start over and you can expect more of the same.

Gr, can't you just change it back?  

Don't go!  If you do you will be missed!  
Regards from
Tom :)




--- On Thu, 16/8/12, Marc Grober  wrote:

From: Marc Grober 
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Excuse me, but your opinion is simply 
unimportant. Start over and you can expect more of the same.
To: "Tom Davies" 
Cc: "users@global.libreoffice.org" , "Andrew 
Brager" 
Date: Thursday, 16 August, 2012, 16:01

And now someone has jumped on my bug and changed my reporting so that it shows 
that it is only in 3.3 - that's the last straw. I will not have anything 
further to do with bug reporting. All those fine devs can choke on their bloody 
buggy product. Congratulations! You have alienated yet another volunteer.



On Aug 16, 2012, at 12:20 AM, Tom Davies  wrote:

> Hi :)
> Interesting thought and a good diagram, thanks :)  
> 
> Something i have wondered for a while is how to utilise what this particular 
> list has to offer, perhaps confirming bug-reports could be partially done 
> through this list?
> 
> Occasionally someone new on this list expresses an interest in getting more 
> involved or somehow repaying the community.  Also this list is quite good at 
> eventually pinning-down exactly what an initial question was probably really 
> asking.  
> 
> People here generally don't have much time or experience but might be willing 
> to push a couple of buttons to see if something really doesn't work, 
> especially if it's not risky.  
> 
> Could we have a weekly report listing  unconfirmed bug-reports generated 
> during the week?  Would it be easier to have a link that listed all the 
> 'thousands' of unconfirmed bug-reports?  Is it thousands or (as i suspect) 
> much much lower?  
> 
> Ideally it would be great to have devs doing development rather than devs 
> spending time trying to work at customer-relations and guessing at what 
> people meant by certain bug-reports.  
> 
> Just my 2pence-worth
> Regards from
> Tom :)  
> 
> 
> --- On Thu, 16/8/12, Andrew Brager  wrote:
> 
> From: Andrew Brager 
> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Excuse me, but your opinion is simply 
> unimportant. Start over and you can expect more of the same.
> To: users@global.libreoffice.org
> Date: Thursday, 16 August, 2012, 1:16
> 
> On 8/15/2012 3:20 PM, Marc Grober wrote:
>> On 8/15/12 1:57 PM, Andrew Brager wrote:
>>> Thanks for your comments.  What still remains unclear to me (not that it
>>> matters as I have no influence/authority on anything done by anyone  -
>>> I'm simply trying to help you all sort it out so somebody in a position
>>> to do something can then do it) is whether the bug status was changed in
>>> that 5 month period between when you re-confirmed the bug, and when it
>>> was closed.
>>> 
>>> In other words, did it get changed from NEEDINFO to NEW when you
>>> reconfirmed the bug, as was implied should have happened?  Or did it go
>>> from NEEDINFO to CLOSED with no intervening status?  If the latter, then
>>> in my opinion there's a bug in bugzilla as (I would think) it should
>>> have changed when you reconfirmed the bug.  If the former, then there's
>>> a problem with the process, not the tool.  The answers to those
>>> questions will answer the question "which one needs fixing?"  If the
>>> process needs fixing, then in my opinion there needs to be additional
>>> status flags and additional feedback from the developers as I previously
>>> wrote.
>>> 
>>> Based on Florien's post, it sounds like he only closed those that were
>>> in the NEEDINFO state, which implies there's a bug in bugzilla as I
>>> state above.
>> I think there is another possibility, and that is that the bug lifecycle
>> is dubious. See, https://bugs.freedesktop.org/docs/en/html/lifecycle.html
> 
> That diagram is in fact interesting.  Based on that diagram (which may or may 
> not be utilized by the LO team), then the process followed by the LO team is 
> in error.  They've chosen to dump unconfirmed bugs back on the user 
> community, instead of confirming the bugs themselves.  I can understand why 
> they've done it, the work is probably overwhelming and they're volunteers so 
> they've chosen to let each individual user/bug submitter either resubmit or 
> assume resolved status.  Not a bad choice from their point of view, it's the 
> path of least work for them.  It makes sense from that viewpoint.  The proper 
> way to do it would have been to check each bug themselves as normally would 
> be done prior to a production release.  They took the practical, expedient 
> approach instead and I don't think you can fault them for doing so.
> 
> 
>> With respect to LO bugs,  it is still unclear what the various stages of
>> the bug lifecycle is, and who is empowered to make various changes to
>> the bug status. As an unempowered user I cannot "confirm" a bug.
> 
> Nor should you be able to confirm a bug.  And that of course is where the 
> model (or process) is broken, since as I mentioned above they've dumped the 
> test

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Excuse me, but your opinion is simply unimportant. Start over and you can expect more of the same.

And now someone has jumped on my bug and changed my reporting so that it shows 
that it is only in 3.3 - that's the last straw. I will not have anything 
further to do with bug reporting. All those fine devs can choke on their bloody 
buggy product. Congratulations! You have alienated yet another volunteer.



On Aug 16, 2012, at 12:20 AM, Tom Davies  wrote:

> Hi :)
> Interesting thought and a good diagram, thanks :)  
> 
> Something i have wondered for a while is how to utilise what this particular 
> list has to offer, perhaps confirming bug-reports could be partially done 
> through this list?
> 
> Occasionally someone new on this list expresses an interest in getting more 
> involved or somehow repaying the community.  Also this list is quite good at 
> eventually pinning-down exactly what an initial question was probably really 
> asking.  
> 
> People here generally don't have much time or experience but might be willing 
> to push a couple of buttons to see if something really doesn't work, 
> especially if it's not risky.  
> 
> Could we have a weekly report listing  unconfirmed bug-reports generated 
> during the week?  Would it be easier to have a link that listed all the 
> 'thousands' of unconfirmed bug-reports?  Is it thousands or (as i suspect) 
> much much lower?  
> 
> Ideally it would be great to have devs doing development rather than devs 
> spending time trying to work at customer-relations and guessing at what 
> people meant by certain bug-reports.  
> 
> Just my 2pence-worth
> Regards from
> Tom :)  
> 
> 
> --- On Thu, 16/8/12, Andrew Brager  wrote:
> 
> From: Andrew Brager 
> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Excuse me, but your opinion is simply 
> unimportant. Start over and you can expect more of the same.
> To: users@global.libreoffice.org
> Date: Thursday, 16 August, 2012, 1:16
> 
> On 8/15/2012 3:20 PM, Marc Grober wrote:
>> On 8/15/12 1:57 PM, Andrew Brager wrote:
>>> Thanks for your comments.  What still remains unclear to me (not that it
>>> matters as I have no influence/authority on anything done by anyone  -
>>> I'm simply trying to help you all sort it out so somebody in a position
>>> to do something can then do it) is whether the bug status was changed in
>>> that 5 month period between when you re-confirmed the bug, and when it
>>> was closed.
>>> 
>>> In other words, did it get changed from NEEDINFO to NEW when you
>>> reconfirmed the bug, as was implied should have happened?  Or did it go
>>> from NEEDINFO to CLOSED with no intervening status?  If the latter, then
>>> in my opinion there's a bug in bugzilla as (I would think) it should
>>> have changed when you reconfirmed the bug.  If the former, then there's
>>> a problem with the process, not the tool.  The answers to those
>>> questions will answer the question "which one needs fixing?"  If the
>>> process needs fixing, then in my opinion there needs to be additional
>>> status flags and additional feedback from the developers as I previously
>>> wrote.
>>> 
>>> Based on Florien's post, it sounds like he only closed those that were
>>> in the NEEDINFO state, which implies there's a bug in bugzilla as I
>>> state above.
>> I think there is another possibility, and that is that the bug lifecycle
>> is dubious. See, https://bugs.freedesktop.org/docs/en/html/lifecycle.html
> 
> That diagram is in fact interesting.  Based on that diagram (which may or may 
> not be utilized by the LO team), then the process followed by the LO team is 
> in error.  They've chosen to dump unconfirmed bugs back on the user 
> community, instead of confirming the bugs themselves.  I can understand why 
> they've done it, the work is probably overwhelming and they're volunteers so 
> they've chosen to let each individual user/bug submitter either resubmit or 
> assume resolved status.  Not a bad choice from their point of view, it's the 
> path of least work for them.  It makes sense from that viewpoint.  The proper 
> way to do it would have been to check each bug themselves as normally would 
> be done prior to a production release.  They took the practical, expedient 
> approach instead and I don't think you can fault them for doing so.
> 
> 
>> With respect to LO bugs,  it is still unclear what the various stages of
>> the bug lifecycle is, and who is empowered to make various changes to
>> the bug status. As an unempowered user I cannot "confirm" a bug.
> 
> Nor should you be able to confirm a bug.  And that of course is where the 
> model (or process) is broken, since as I mentioned above they've dumped the 
> testing back on the user - with decent reasoning - but it still breaks the 
> model as provided by the diagram.  So yes, somebody on the developer's side 
> needs to make some decisions as to how best to fix the model and/or process.  
> Personally I don't see a problem with their decision to dump the bugs back on 
> the user considering they themselves are volunteers, but somewhere somehow 
> the status needs to change

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Reply settings on this list have changed

   brilliantly said.

   And may I add this use of acronyms is silly ... are we supposed to
memorize each new one  ???
  here's supposedly a complete listing -
http://www.all-acronyms.com/

   Yes, growing up pre-computers was different from you post-computer
youngsters, but bear in mind that using acronyms confuses the communication
since many of these are duplicates  ;-)



On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 2:11 AM, Tom Davies  wrote:

Hi :)
> Bottom posting is a good way to alienate most of the target
> market-shares that LO needs to break into.  Many new people are
> completely unaware that there is any other way of posting other than
> top-posting because top posting is so widespread.
>
> Also there are a ridiculous number of rules, such as how and when to snip,
> that
> makes it more time consuming and difficult for new people that have
> only joined the list to deal with one or 2 specific questions, not to
> change their entire life-style.
>
> How about we 1st get the world using LibreOffice and THEN start opening
> people to new ways of doing things?
>
> Oh and this new way of having to use "Reply to all" instead of "Reply" is
> brilliant!  It makes it more difficult to keep things on-list and more
> difficult for new arrivals to the list.  Perfect!!
> Regards from
> Tom :)
>
>
>
> From: Marc Paré 
> Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: Reply settings on this list have changed
> To: users@global.libreoffice.org
> Date: Thursday, 16 August, 2012, 7:03
>
> Hi Anne and Jay,
>
> Le 2012-08-16 00:53, Jay Lozier a écrit :
>
> >> (3) Thank you for standing up against these list-members who respond
> >> at the bottom !
> > Actually there are two different philosophies. Top posting works best
> > when only a few people are actively involved in the conversation and all
> > are actively following the thread. For most exchanges this works very
> > well because it mimics a verbal conversation.
> >
> > Bottom posting is done on lists because someone may not have seen the
> > initial post and the context of the answers and other follow up posts.
> > The idea is that the thread can be followed with the oldest post on top
> > to latest on the bottom as if you are reading a report.
> >
> > Inline posting is sometimes done when it is easier to answer each issue
> > raised.
> >
> > I did a combination of inline and bottom posting
> >
> > Also snip is used to indicate that part of the original has been deleted
> > by the poster
> >
> > 
> >
>
> Please review
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette#Top-Posting_vs_Bottom-Postingfor
>  more information on posting.
>
> This topic has been covered several times on this list. FYI, we recommend
> bottom posting if possible along with inline posting, in order to preserve
> the flow of discussion for all.
>
> It just makes it easier for everyone to work on the lists if we adopt the
> same way of responding to email.
>
> Thanks for your help.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Marc
>

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Reply settings on this list have changed

Hi :)
I am not sure about current usage levels but 2 areas that Sun had problems 
trying to break into were
1.  Windows users
2.  US and England etc
Europe, Brazil and many other places were quite happy to use a product that 
wasn't primarily about making huge profits for a certain US company.  

There is always a risk, when going for new markets, of losing stable and 
existing loyal customers.  Would gaining a lot of Windows users annoy the 
Gnu&Linux users so much they would leave?  

(It might be worth noting that the "extremist" group (probably not the way 
extremist is usually used these days), the "Free Software Foundation" and 
Richard Stallman backed LO where they would never back OOo (OOo is what AOO 
used to be called under Sun) so i doubt Gnu&Linux users would leave!  More 
likely the opposite and tons more would continue to keep joining.)  

Regards from
Tom :)  


--- On Tue, 14/8/12, Steve Edmonds  wrote:

From: Steve Edmonds 
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Reply settings on this list have changed
To: "anne-ology" 
Cc: "Mark LaPierre" , users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Tuesday, 14 August, 2012, 1:03

I primarily use SUSE but also osx and win. I support Anne.
If (as an example only) 80% of LO potential is win based and this is the 
target for growth then to be non-exclusive and encourage advancement in 
the win platform the support list should cater for the most common win. 
mail applications. Browser (gmail, hotmail, yahoo, etc.) or outlook.

If we are trying to stifle growth and keep LO in the linux club, then 
make it easy for linux users and less convenient for others.

Steve

On 2012-08-14 11:55, anne-ology wrote:
>         you're mis-informed; I, for one, have never used a Linus-based
> machine; and I bet I'm not the only one.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 6:36 PM, Mark LaPierre  wrote:
>
> On 08/12/2012 12:31 PM, Florian Effenberger wrote:
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> this is to inform you that the reply settings on this list have changed
>>> (so-called "Reply to mangling" has been disabled).
>>>
>>> So far, e-mails had set a reply-to the mailing list address. In other
>>> words, with any e-mail client, replies to e-mails on the list were
>>> automatically sent directly to the list.
>>>
>>> In the past, this lead to two major problems:
>>>
>>> 1. Several times, people have sent direct replies to the public list,
>>> where deleting them is nearly impossible. I remember at least one case
>>> where confidential information has been sent out that caused lots of
>>> worries for the sender and his employer. This happened because people
>>> hit "reply" and thought it would reply to the sender only.
>>>
>>> 2. I have heard complaints in the past from people, stating that working
>>> with the non-developer lists of LibreOffice is a pain for them, because
>>> of reply-to mangling, resulting in a lack of communication. This also
>>> led to the fact that numerous tasks were done by the same people, who
>>> needed to spend more and more time, instead of sharing the work burden
>>> with others. While I do not fully believe this argument, there's just
>>> one way to find out...
>>>
>>> Therefore, I have applied a change:
>>>
>>> Replies to e-mails from the list now only go to the original sender. You
>>> either need to use the "reply to all" feature of your e-mail program, or
>>> - preferably - the "reply to list"/"reply to group" feature, which will
>>> direct replies directly to the list.
>>>
>>> This is common practice on most mailing lists, and even the default
>>> setting for our mailing list software, so we did not re-invent the wheel
>>> here. Those seeking for details should have a look at
>>> http://www.unicom.com/pw/**reply-to-harmful.html
>>>
>>> I know we had numerous discussions on this topic in the past, but the
>>> outcome was that roughly 50% were for this change, and 50% refused it,
>>> so I am really sitting between two chairs here, for which I beg for your
>>> understanding. On the one hand, those complaining the lists are unusable
>>> with reply-to mangling, on the other hand, those complaining the lists
>>> are unusable without reply-to mangling. Unfortunately, combining those
>>> two, even on a per-recipient basis, is not possible, so they are
>>> mutually exclusive to each other.
>>>
>>> In order to find out the real impact, I simply changed the setting, and
>>> again, I beg for your understanding.
>>>
>>> Do not worry: The mailing lists are for the community, so it's the
>>> community deciding how they should work. What I'd like to ask all of you
>>> is to try out for a few days if that change is good for each list or
>>> not. Should we find out it is more harmful than it helps, I will
>>> immediately switch back to the old behaviour.
>>>
>>> Sorry for this short notice, and I beg for your understanding that I'm
>>> somehow sitting between two chairs here.
>>>
>>> Florian
>>>
>>>
>> Hey All,
>>
>> Not trying to be rude.  All of you sh

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Reply settings on this list have changed

   yes, I agree with you; and thanks for your kind words.

   For the listers who promote Thunderbird & Opera, the problems, some
of which are noted here, persist  ;-(

   BTW - what is PM ? ... Prime Minister doesn't fit into the context
;-)
 post meridian or post mortem  ;-)

   BTW 2 - if anyone would care to see my list - I've even written
articles - re. the acronym craze, I'll be glad to send it to you; just ask
;-)



On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 1:47 AM, Bjørn K Nilssen  wrote:

På Thu, 16 Aug 2012 02:29:24 +0200, skrev Andrew Brager  >:
>
>
>  Thunderbird has the option.  I don't know what other clients have it, if
>> any.
>>
>
> Opera have that option too.
> But it still doesn't make the idea of making the From: the default To:
> address for replies any better.
> It is like if the default on a forum would be that you reply with a PM
> instead of to the thread.
>
> Opera automatically detects/filters mailing lists, and whenever I get a
> mail with both my email and the list address in the To: field it removes
> the list 'duplicate' and leaves the other one in the Inbox instead of in
> the list 'folder', which causes the context/thread to be lost.
> Makes it messy to follow!
> I believe this is the standard if you use 'Reply to all'? At least that's
> the way it works if I use that option in Opera.
> The way anne-ology does it works better, as the second address is placed
> in the Cc: field instead of 2 addresses in the To: field.
>
>
>  On 8/15/2012 5:00 PM, anne-ology wrote:
>>
>>> exactly - well, there is a third option [to forward  ;-) ]
>>>
>>> And those are the only options available in the web-based
>>> e-mails as
>>> well.
>>>
>>> BTW - I've never seen this supposed 'reply to list' option on any
>>> computer.
>>>
>>
> --
> Bjørn K Nilssen
>
>

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Reply settings on this list have changed

Hi :)
+1

It is good to experiment and play around with things in search of the best 
answer.  I think the way it was before was the best way i have ever seen from 
any list.  I was bragging about it on the Ubuntu lists quite recently where 
they often have problems with the new type of system we have moved to.  
Regards from
Tom :)  


--- On Tue, 14/8/12, Florian Effenberger  wrote:

From: Florian Effenberger 
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Reply settings on this list have changed
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Tuesday, 14 August, 2012, 1:12

Hello everyone,

I just wanted to thank everyone for your feedback, and assure you that I read 
every bit, even if I don't manage to reply to every message in detail.

My offer stands valid, let's wait for some more feedback and some more days, 
and then make a final decision.

Florian

-- Florian Effenberger, Chairman of the Board (Vorstandsvorsitzender)
Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108
The Document Foundation, Zimmerstr. 69, 10117 Berlin, Germany
Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts
Legal details: http://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Reply settings on this list have changed

   Thanks for clearing up that acronym.



On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 11:53 PM, Jay Lozier  wrote:

On 08/15/2012 08:48 PM, anne-ology wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> (2) Just what - or who - is RFC ???
>>
> Request for comments
>
>
>>

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Reply settings on this list have changed

Hi :)
That is very considerate of you!  Typical of you really.  I tried that for a 
while but in life generally (ie not just in here) i find that whatever i do 
annoys a large number of people so now i just do whatever is easiest for me to 
get the job done.  

I'm not convinced that whatever most people do is obviously right.  I tend to 
find the exact opposite.  

Just because my boss, his bosses, our management committee, all my colleagues, 
all the people in all organisations that we do business with including funders, 
all clients including individuals and everyone i email privately all top-post 
doesn't mean it's right or the best way.  The only time i ever see bottom or 
in-line posting is here or other OpenSource projects, usually projects that are 
losing people faster than gaining them.  

The question is not about wrong or right imo, it's about whether we want new 
people to start using LO and to feel welcome or do we want to discourage all 
newcomers?  

It is a pita that people get duplicates.  Another thing i am seeing is that 
people break out into "working groups" which may or may not fizzle out but even 
if they do resolve the problem that answer is unlikely to reach the list.  

Regards from
Tom :)  


--- On Thu, 16/8/12, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak  wrote:

From: Andrew Douglas Pitonyak 
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Reply settings on this list have changed
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Thursday, 16 August, 2012, 14:22


On 08/16/2012 03:11 AM, Tom Davies wrote:
> Hi :)
> Bottom posting is a good way to alienate most of the target

I strongly dislike bottom posting Just saying... If it were obviously the 
correct and logical choice, then I expect more people would tend towards it 
naturally.

I usually follow what ever the last person has done so as not to annoy either 
side.

> Oh and this new way of having to use "Reply to all" instead of "Reply" is 
> brilliant!  It makes it more difficult to keep things on-list and more 
> difficult for new arrivals to the list.  Perfect!!
> 
With reply all, two copies are received by the original poster.

-- Andrew Pitonyak
My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt
Info:  http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Japanese font

2012-08-16 Thread webmaster-Kracked_P_P



I bet most of the fonts Japanese that comes with Ubuntu would be free to 
distribute.  There seems to be both TTF and OTF fonts listed.  SO if 
they are free to distribute, then you have no problems for your friend 
to get them from you.



On 08/16/2012 09:34 AM, Tom Davies wrote:

Hi :)
Ahhh, nicely remembered!  I do use Ubuntu but unfortunately my friend uses Xp 
and may move to Win7 if work forces it on us as they seem to want to.
Regards from
Tom :)


--- On Thu, 16/8/12, webmaster-Kracked_P_P  wrote:

From: webmaster-Kracked_P_P 
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Japanese font
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Thursday, 16 August, 2012, 14:29


Yes I would.

I just sent you, your friend, and Thomas B. an email off list about this
font "problem".

Have you tried to search the Synaptic Package Manager [Ubuntu 10.04 for
me] for "japanese font".  There are a lot of listing there.

As I stated in that email, I think Thomas B. would know which of those
listings would be the best ones to use.

.

On 08/16/2012 08:59 AM, Tom Davies wrote:

Hi :)
Thanks for the links off-list!  I haven't looked at the copyright permissions 
on those yet but it might be worth copying them to the list.  I know Webmaster 
at Kracked Press will probably be keen to know!

Anyway, many thanks and regards from
Tom :)



--- On Thu, 16/8/12, Thomas Blasejewicz  wrote:

From: Thomas Blasejewicz 
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Japanese font
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Cc: t.k...@cecf.co.uk
Date: Thursday, 16 August, 2012, 13:17

Good evening from Japan
Naturally I do have a number of Japanese fonts in my computer, most of which 
came with the OS, but I think there are also a few others.
Personally I do not mind to send a copy of those unless this represents a 
"crime" of one sort or other.

Thomas
(2012/08/16 20:38), Tom Davies wrote:

Hi :)
I have a Japanese friend (in the Cc field) that has been looking for a decent (and 
preferably free!) japanese font.  It seems that a lot of characters still get shown as 
blank boxes ("playing cards").  Does anyone know of a decent and fairly 
comprehensive japanese font?
Regards from
Tom :)


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Japanese font

Hi :)
Ahhh, nicely remembered!  I do use Ubuntu but unfortunately my friend uses Xp 
and may move to Win7 if work forces it on us as they seem to want to.  
Regards from
Tom :)  


--- On Thu, 16/8/12, webmaster-Kracked_P_P  wrote:

From: webmaster-Kracked_P_P 
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Japanese font
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Thursday, 16 August, 2012, 14:29


Yes I would.

I just sent you, your friend, and Thomas B. an email off list about this 
font "problem".

Have you tried to search the Synaptic Package Manager [Ubuntu 10.04 for 
me] for "japanese font".  There are a lot of listing there.

As I stated in that email, I think Thomas B. would know which of those 
listings would be the best ones to use.

.

On 08/16/2012 08:59 AM, Tom Davies wrote:
> Hi :)
> Thanks for the links off-list!  I haven't looked at the copyright permissions 
> on those yet but it might be worth copying them to the list.  I know 
> Webmaster at Kracked Press will probably be keen to know!
>
> Anyway, many thanks and regards from
> Tom :)
>
>
>
> --- On Thu, 16/8/12, Thomas Blasejewicz  wrote:
>
> From: Thomas Blasejewicz 
> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Japanese font
> To: users@global.libreoffice.org
> Cc: t.k...@cecf.co.uk
> Date: Thursday, 16 August, 2012, 13:17
>
> Good evening from Japan
> Naturally I do have a number of Japanese fonts in my computer, most of which 
> came with the OS, but I think there are also a few others.
> Personally I do not mind to send a copy of those unless this represents a 
> "crime" of one sort or other.
>
> Thomas
> (2012/08/16 20:38), Tom Davies wrote:
>> Hi :)
>> I have a Japanese friend (in the Cc field) that has been looking for a 
>> decent (and preferably free!) japanese font.  It seems that a lot of 
>> characters still get shown as blank boxes ("playing cards").  Does anyone 
>> know of a decent and fairly comprehensive japanese font?
>> Regards from
>> Tom :)
>>
>
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>
>


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Japanese font

2012-08-16 Thread webmaster-Kracked_P_P



Yes I would.

I just sent you, your friend, and Thomas B. an email off list about this 
font "problem".


Have you tried to search the Synaptic Package Manager [Ubuntu 10.04 for 
me] for "japanese font".  There are a lot of listing there.


As I stated in that email, I think Thomas B. would know which of those 
listings would be the best ones to use.


.

On 08/16/2012 08:59 AM, Tom Davies wrote:

Hi :)
Thanks for the links off-list!  I haven't looked at the copyright permissions 
on those yet but it might be worth copying them to the list.  I know Webmaster 
at Kracked Press will probably be keen to know!

Anyway, many thanks and regards from
Tom :)



--- On Thu, 16/8/12, Thomas Blasejewicz  wrote:

From: Thomas Blasejewicz 
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Japanese font
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Cc: t.k...@cecf.co.uk
Date: Thursday, 16 August, 2012, 13:17

Good evening from Japan
Naturally I do have a number of Japanese fonts in my computer, most of which 
came with the OS, but I think there are also a few others.
Personally I do not mind to send a copy of those unless this represents a 
"crime" of one sort or other.

Thomas
(2012/08/16 20:38), Tom Davies wrote:

Hi :)
I have a Japanese friend (in the Cc field) that has been looking for a decent (and 
preferably free!) japanese font.  It seems that a lot of characters still get shown as 
blank boxes ("playing cards").  Does anyone know of a decent and fairly 
comprehensive japanese font?
Regards from
Tom :)



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Reply settings on this list have changed

Hi :)
Hmmm, over 60% of the worlds top 50 supercomputers use Gnu&Linux and most of 
the rest use other unix-based platforms.  So anyone using the internet or any 
email system has probably used Linux.  Google servers run on Gnu&Linux.  Almost 
all mobile phones used Gnu&Linux although smart phones sometimes use something 
else.  

What people usually mean is they have never used it as a desktop OS.  
Regards from
Tom :)  


--- On Tue, 14/8/12, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak  wrote:

From: Andrew Douglas Pitonyak 
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Reply settings on this list have changed
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Tuesday, 14 August, 2012, 6:12


I would bet that you have used a Linux based machine. and you just 
never knew it. Seems like Linux is everywhere. Seems that I own a DVR, a 
fancy Panasonic DVD player, and a phone that all seem to be based on 
Linux. It is everywhere, we just don't know it! :-)

On 08/13/2012 07:55 PM, anne-ology wrote:
>         you're mis-informed; I, for one, have never used a Linus-based
> machine; and I bet I'm not the only one.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 6:36 PM, Mark LaPierre  wrote:
>
> On 08/12/2012 12:31 PM, Florian Effenberger wrote:
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> this is to inform you that the reply settings on this list have changed
>>> (so-called "Reply to mangling" has been disabled).
>>>
>>> So far, e-mails had set a reply-to the mailing list address. In other
>>> words, with any e-mail client, replies to e-mails on the list were
>>> automatically sent directly to the list.
>>>
>>> In the past, this lead to two major problems:
>>>
>>> 1. Several times, people have sent direct replies to the public list,
>>> where deleting them is nearly impossible. I remember at least one case
>>> where confidential information has been sent out that caused lots of
>>> worries for the sender and his employer. This happened because people
>>> hit "reply" and thought it would reply to the sender only.
>>>
>>> 2. I have heard complaints in the past from people, stating that working
>>> with the non-developer lists of LibreOffice is a pain for them, because
>>> of reply-to mangling, resulting in a lack of communication. This also
>>> led to the fact that numerous tasks were done by the same people, who
>>> needed to spend more and more time, instead of sharing the work burden
>>> with others. While I do not fully believe this argument, there's just
>>> one way to find out...
>>>
>>> Therefore, I have applied a change:
>>>
>>> Replies to e-mails from the list now only go to the original sender. You
>>> either need to use the "reply to all" feature of your e-mail program, or
>>> - preferably - the "reply to list"/"reply to group" feature, which will
>>> direct replies directly to the list.
>>>
>>> This is common practice on most mailing lists, and even the default
>>> setting for our mailing list software, so we did not re-invent the wheel
>>> here. Those seeking for details should have a look at
>>> http://www.unicom.com/pw/**reply-to-harmful.html
>>>
>>> I know we had numerous discussions on this topic in the past, but the
>>> outcome was that roughly 50% were for this change, and 50% refused it,
>>> so I am really sitting between two chairs here, for which I beg for your
>>> understanding. On the one hand, those complaining the lists are unusable
>>> with reply-to mangling, on the other hand, those complaining the lists
>>> are unusable without reply-to mangling. Unfortunately, combining those
>>> two, even on a per-recipient basis, is not possible, so they are
>>> mutually exclusive to each other.
>>>
>>> In order to find out the real impact, I simply changed the setting, and
>>> again, I beg for your understanding.
>>>
>>> Do not worry: The mailing lists are for the community, so it's the
>>> community deciding how they should work. What I'd like to ask all of you
>>> is to try out for a few days if that change is good for each list or
>>> not. Should we find out it is more harmful than it helps, I will
>>> immediately switch back to the old behaviour.
>>>
>>> Sorry for this short notice, and I beg for your understanding that I'm
>>> somehow sitting between two chairs here.
>>>
>>> Florian
>>>
>>>
>> Hey All,
>>
>> Not trying to be rude.  All of you should be smart enough to run an email
>> tool.  After all you're all Linux users who administer at least one Linux
>> installation.
>>
>> For those of you having trouble with email filters try filtering on
>> "libreoffice-users" in the subject line.  That should get all your email to
>> the right folder.
>>
>> --
>>      _
>>     °v°
>>    /(_)\
>>     ^ ^  Mark LaPierre
>> Registerd Linux user No #267004
>> www.counter.li.org
>> 
>>

-- 
Andrew Pitonyak
My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt
Info:  http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Unsubscribe

2012-08-16 Thread Florian Effenberger


Hello,

in order to improve the wording of the unsubscribe instructions, could 
you please tell us where you had the problems and what step did not work 
out?


When you write to the users+h...@global.libreoffice.org you'll receive a 
mail for instructions on how to subscribe and unsubscribe, and the 
unsubscribe addresses differ depending on whether you have a normal 
subscription (you receive each mail individually and without delay), or 
digest mode (you receive a collection of mails). Is that where the 
misunderstanding started?


You will then receive another mail, asking for confirmation of the 
unsubscribe, in order to prevent other people from unsubscribing you 
without your consent - just as the request for confirmation when 
subscribing prevents that other people add you to the list. Were you 
able to figure out that you had to send another mail to the appropriate 
unsubscribe address, after receiving the automatic reply?


We also link to a handy page with all information about unsubscribing, 
including a human contact you can reach in case things do not work for 
you. This page is linked in the footer of every message. Did you read 
this page? You can find it at 
http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/


You were now manually removed from the list, but nevertheless we'd be 
glad if you could tell us where the problem was, so that we can improve 
the process and make it easier for other users in the same situation as 
you were.


Thanks,
Florian

Jerry White wrote on 2012-08-16 15:21:

unsubscribe



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Reply settings on this list have changed

2012-08-16 Thread Andrew Douglas Pitonyak



On 08/16/2012 03:11 AM, Tom Davies wrote:

Hi :)
Bottom posting is a good way to alienate most of the target


I strongly dislike bottom posting Just saying... If it were 
obviously the correct and logical choice, then I expect more people 
would tend towards it naturally.


I usually follow what ever the last person has done so as not to annoy 
either side.



Oh and this new way of having to use "Reply to all" instead of "Reply" is 
brilliant!  It makes it more difficult to keep things on-list and more difficult for new arrivals 
to the list.  Perfect!!


With reply all, two copies are received by the original poster.

--
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My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt
Info:  http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php


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[libreoffice-users] Unsubscribe

2012-08-16 Thread Jerry White

unsubscribe

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Reply settings on this list have changed

Hi :)
Is it possible to set filters to look for items in a subject-line instead of 
looking at where replies might go to?  Messages from the users list always seem 
to have [libreoffice-users] in the subject-line but not always in the same 
place ...
Regards from
Tom :)  

--- On Tue, 14/8/12, webmaster-Kracked_P_P  wrote:

From: webmaster-Kracked_P_P 
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Reply settings on this list have changed
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Tuesday, 14 August, 2012, 15:24

On 08/14/2012 08:00 AM, Tanstaafl wrote:
> On 2012-08-13 4:01 PM, Girvin R. Herr  wrote:
>> Yesterday, your changes broke my email filter which puts libreoffice
>> user group messages in a specific folder. But then I changed the filter
>> from looking at "Reply-To:" to "To:" and thought that would suffice.
>> Now, this morning I got 7 libreoffice messages in my correct folder via
>> my filter change, and 4 messages direct from members in my main inbox,
>> which my filter did not catch.  Your change may make it easy for you,
>> but it is a nightmare for me.  There is no way I can create filters for
>> all users who use their address.
> 
> Wrong.
> 
> In Thunderbird, just use the 'From, To, Cc or Bcc' option...
> 

I make sure the message filter checks if the email address is in any of the 
options stated above.  It really works, except when someone sends the reply to 
the list and to me directly.  At that point I get both messages in the 
LibreOffice folder based on which list it is part of - i.e. this list is in the 
"LibreO - Users Global" folder and the website list uses "LibreO - Website" 
folder.

I have been using Thunderbird for many years.  The only problem I have is I 
cannot save the message filters.  When I have a system crash [when using 
Windows] and had to reinstall Windows, I had no ability to reload the message 
filters as I can with the saved emails and address-book.  When I went from 
Windows to Ubuntu for my default system, I had to rebuild the Message Filtering 
that had several years of "growth" that I had to rebuild from scratch.

-- off topic ---

I currently read my emails from only one computer - my Ubuntu 10.04 desktop.  
If I need to deal with emails on a different computer, I use my domain/email 
hosting system's web-mail system.  Since I use the Ubuntu desktop, a Dell 
laptop running Ubuntu 12.04/MATE and Vista, HP laptop running XP/pro, an 
Android tablet, a Ubuntu 10.04 desktop attached to my HD-TV set for the types 
of Internet audio/video that my Blu-ray player cannot do, and a few more 
desktops running Ubuntu or XP that are spares or will be given to others who 
need them and cannot afford to buy one themselves.

With this mix of system being used for various tasks, I would have a mess if I 
tried to read emails on more than one system, even if I could get a sync system 
to work properly between the various Windows and Ubuntu systems.

I currently use a 1 TB and a 2 TB USB external hard drive[s] for backing up my 
main Ubuntu desktop [it has the two drives - 1 TB and 2 TB - installed].  Then 
I can use these external drives to play AVI and MPG/MP4 files on my TV via the 
Blu-ray player or listen to audio books with the ability to deal with the 
volume and play/pause controls of the Blu-ray player and not having to get up 
out of my comfy chair to do so with my computer.  The down side of this is the 
USB drives must be Windows formatted and it takes a long time to 
defrag/optimize the 2 TB drive. With 324 GB free space on that drive, it has 
been over 26 hours running the Auslogics Disk Defrag software on a Dell laptop 
- Pentium Dual core CPU T3200 @ 2.00 GHz, 32-bit Vista, with 3 GB of RAM.

I must keep the drives formatted to Windows systems so the Windows computers 
and the Blu-ray player can access them.  But that is a small price to pay for 
having all my media and data file accessible to all my computers and media 
players that can use an external USB drive.  It is much better than having to 
load up a 32 GB microSD flash card, and use a USB card reader, to share the 
file[s] between devices.  Much slower as well.

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Reply settings on this list have changed

Hi :)
+1

Yahoo is set-up to be a pita anyway, i know.  There is a reply button but to do 
a reply-to-all takes 2 clicks and you have to wait after the 1st click for it's 
sub-menu (with only 2 items in it) to appear.  Other, proper email-clients, may 
have tons of options but Yahoo only offers 2 including reply.  Does MS ever 
comply with RFCs?  Does it even try to or claim it tries to?

Regards from
Tom :)  


--- On Tue, 14/8/12, Steven Shelton  wrote:

From: Steven Shelton 
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Reply settings on this list have changed
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Tuesday, 14 August, 2012, 15:49


-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
 
On 8/14/2012 5:50 AM, Bjørn K Nilssen wrote:
> My feedback is that I don't like the change at all.

I agree. The purpose of a list like this is to share information.
Typically, when a person on a list such as this one hits "REPLY", that
person is participating in the larger conversation, and not intending to
send a private message to a specific person. Since that is the usual
intent, it should be the default.

I have been on some lists that have made this change, and typically
participation drops and group knowledge is lost. I think it's a solution
for a problem that doesn't really exist.

- -- 
Steven Shelton
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
 
iEYEARECAAYFAlAqZW4ACgkQXUonIzCvpdM9GACeKV6ucNA0ROby6ppOoLP3DqfY
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Re: [libreoffice-users] Japanese font

Hi :)
Thanks for the links off-list!  I haven't looked at the copyright permissions 
on those yet but it might be worth copying them to the list.  I know Webmaster 
at Kracked Press will probably be keen to know!

Anyway, many thanks and regards from
Tom :)  



--- On Thu, 16/8/12, Thomas Blasejewicz  wrote:

From: Thomas Blasejewicz 
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Japanese font
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Cc: t.k...@cecf.co.uk
Date: Thursday, 16 August, 2012, 13:17

Good evening from Japan
Naturally I do have a number of Japanese fonts in my computer, most of which 
came with the OS, but I think there are also a few others.
Personally I do not mind to send a copy of those unless this represents a 
"crime" of one sort or other.

Thomas
(2012/08/16 20:38), Tom Davies wrote:
> Hi :)
> I have a Japanese friend (in the Cc field) that has been looking for a decent 
> (and preferably free!) japanese font.  It seems that a lot of characters 
> still get shown as blank boxes ("playing cards").  Does anyone know of a 
> decent and fairly comprehensive japanese font?
> Regards from
> Tom :)
> 


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[libreoffice-users] [QA] LibreOffice 3.6.1.1 first tests results

2012-08-16 Thread Carlo Strata


Ciao Everyone!

My current notebook system:
- OpenSuSE 12.1, updated, gnome 3.4.1, Kernel Linux 3.1.10-63-desktop, 
x86-64 (on an Intel EM64T Cpu), italian GUIed;
- nVidia GeForce 9500M GS - 512 Mbyte dedicated Video RAM, kernel 
integrated nouveau driver;
- LibreOffice "vanilla" Version *3.6.1.1* (Build ID: 4db6344), italian 
GUIed.


In the LibreOffice *3.6.0.4* first tests I dealt with this bugs:
- system integratiion file association fails (even though 
.../desktop-integration/libreoffice3.6-suse-menus-3.6.0-104.noarch.rpm 
was installed);
- italian dictionary doesn't seem to check the words (none incorrect 
were underlined);
- importing a pdf file results in a read only opened Draw document and 
the read only state still remains/persists after "saving as" a 
LibreOffice Draw file (odg file).


In the first 3.6.1.1 - that I have just downloaded and installed - test 
all of upper bugs seem to be fixed! :-)


Fine work from tester and developer and bug fixer!

Have a nice and sunny day!

Carlo

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-
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Italia - Italy
-
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-
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PEC: carlo.str...@ingpec.eu


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Zotero Integration with LO [Proposition / Feature Request?]

Hi :)
I think TDF, just like other companies and organisations, could have more than 
1 product.  It might be best if they bring their community and structures with 
them and retain a lot of independence and work-flow but obviously there might 
be some things that TDF could offer or would want such projects to 
incorporate.  I had thought such projects might include database back-ends, 
Gnome Office (if that needs a home), Calligra Office (although they are 
probably well organised already).  

Probably it's all been discussed on the discussion's list here but this is an 
exciting time for TDF and there are a lot of opportunities for planning 
road-maps into the future.  
Regards from
Tom :)  


--- On Tue, 14/8/12, Marc Grober  wrote:

From: Marc Grober 
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Zotero Integration with LO [Proposition / 
Feature Request?]
To: 
Cc: "users@global.libreoffice.org" 
Date: Tuesday, 14 August, 2012, 19:16

See zotero.org 
You will find a few videos
It is what you might think of as a bibliographic tool. I recommend it to all my 
students (along with FF and LO.) It also provides for sharing of collaborati 
libraries. I would have to suggest that the zotero community might appear to be 
less prone to spatting and more cohesive, and that would be my only heartburn 
in a closer relationship. 



On Aug 14, 2012, at 5:20 AM, anne-ology  wrote:

>       Could you please explain what is Zotero?
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 12:52 AM, Anthony Easthope 
> wrote:
> 
> Hi Guys
>> 
>> I have a proposition for you all and am not sure if you would class it as
>> a feature request or a partnership suggestion.
>> 
>> My idea is as follows:  The Document Foundation partners up with Roy
>> Rosenzwieg Center for History and New Media and work together on making The
>> Zotero project an integral part of the LibreOffice frame work.
>> 
>> I have the feeling that I might be treading on thin ground here but I will
>> outline my reasons as to why this could work below
>> 
>>  * Libreoffice is perfect for use within university's / schools as it can
>> be easily distributed thanks to the GNU license the same goes
>>    for Zotero
>>  * The use of Zotero could replace the inbuilt Bibliography & referencing
>> tool as the current one is quite bewildering to use for
>>    many people
>>  * Zotero has a nice GUI and can work in with Firefox via an extension
>> which is also open source so at the same time we are not just
>>    supporting one open-source initiative but three!
>>  * Zotero is open to suggestions and it appears to other projects as well
>>  * Increased awareness of The Document Foundation program via Zotero
>> related media attention (Vice Versa for LO and Zotero)
>>  * it would bring a fresh feel to the whole project and could even mean a
>> new approach and reinvigorate the project
>> 
>> 
>> Let me Know what you think and feel free to shoot me down if you so wish!
>> 
>> 
>> Regards
>> 
>> Anthony Easthope
>> 
>> 
> 
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Re: [libreoffice-users] Japanese font

2012-08-16 Thread Thomas Blasejewicz


Good evening from Japan
Naturally I do have a number of Japanese fonts in my computer, most of 
which came with the OS, but I think there are also a few others.
Personally I do not mind to send a copy of those unless this represents 
a "crime" of one sort or other.


Thomas
(2012/08/16 20:38), Tom Davies wrote:

Hi :)
I have a Japanese friend (in the Cc field) that has been looking for a decent (and 
preferably free!) japanese font.  It seems that a lot of characters still get shown as 
blank boxes ("playing cards").  Does anyone know of a decent and fairly 
comprehensive japanese font?
Regards from
Tom :)




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Re: [libreoffice-users] MSO 2013 article - MSO will read/write ODF1.2 and change formatting of .docx files again

Hi :)
MSO 2007 and 2010 can save as Pdf or rather
File - Export to Pdf
but it's very limited compared to LO's.  With LO's you can choose a range of 
options such as tagged (or not), 1a, compression rate or even uncompressed, 
type of compression (defaults to the standard jpg), set the dpi for images, 
blah, balh, blah and blah, and even to sneakily include the odf inside the pdf 
so that other LO users can edit it easily.  With MSO you don't get any options 
and it just gets compressed using jpg messiness.  
Regards from
Tom :)  


--- On Tue, 14/8/12, webmaster-Kracked_P_P  wrote:

From: webmaster-Kracked_P_P 
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] MSO 2013 article - MSO will read/write ODF1.2 
and change formatting of .docx files again
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Tuesday, 14 August, 2012, 21:55

On 08/14/2012 12:11 PM, James Knott wrote:
> webmaster-Kracked_P_P wrote:
>> 
>> This article may be interesting to read by some of this lists users.  It 
>> seems that MSO 2013 will read/write ODF 1.2 formats and their older OOXML 
>> formats will not be changed to Strict Open XML formats [so .docx will change 
>> format again].  Also Excel will be using OpenFormula, it claims.  It will 
>> also be able to read/edit/save PDF files. 
> 
> Not writing ODF 1.1 is a good thing, given how badly it was implemented in MS 
> Office.  Also, I understand that Strict Open XML means getting rid of the 
> proprietary stuff that made it difficult for other office suites to implement.
> 
> 
Yes not saving to 1.1 will be good in the long run for people who wish to get 
businesses to use ODF instead of MSO's XML formats.

Still, the move to make their XML formats use Strict Open XML will make MSO 
2013 not readable with MSO 2007 and 2010 package, or as least I have read 
before.  Hopefully it does remove the "undocumented" proprietary "stuff" from 
within their XML formats so it would be easier to create the needed filters to 
read/write MSO 2013's XML files.  We still need to keep 2010 and 2007 XML file 
filters updated for those users.

OpenFormula may make it easier to use Excel '13 files with Calc.  Calc does 
support OpenFormula, right?

Actually I did not know that MSO 2010 saved files as PDF, but the article 
states that 2007 and 2010 both do.  Still I would keep a PDF print driver to be 
able to create PDFs from the non-office documents [neither MSO or LO 
documents].  CUPS-PDF for Linux [on Ubuntu for me] and the free "doPDF" 
software-printer for Windows [on XP and Vista for me] work fine for that.



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[libreoffice-users] [3.6] "listening on the network"

2012-08-16 Thread Philippe Naudin

Hello,

I am using LibreOffice x86_64 on Linux, installed from official rpms.
Since it got updated to Version 3.6.0.4 (Build ID: 932b512), rkhunter
whines : 
  Checking for packet capturing applications
  Warning: Process '/opt/libreoffice3.6/program/soffice.bin' (PID 15079) is 
listening on the network.

lsof -i doesn't show anything related to soffice, but lsof -U shows : 
  COMMAND PIDUSER   FD   TYPE DEVICE SIZE/OFF   NODE NAME
  soffice.b 15079  naudin   11u  unix 0x8100883b7c80  0t0 352208 socket
  X  2924root   44u  unix 0x8100883b7980  0t0 352209 
/tmp/.X11-unix/X0
  soffice.b 15079  naudin   12u  unix 0x8100883b7680  0t0 352210 
/tmp/OSL_PIPE_1058_SingleOfficeIPC_474aee6e854ee537ef2ad5a42cd51fe9
  soffice.b 15079  naudin   22u  unix 0x8100883b7080  0t0 352223 socket
  X  2924root   46u  unix 0x8100883b7380  0t0 352224 
/tmp/.X11-unix/X0

The same rkhunter has no problem with LibreOffice 3.5.4.2, Build ID:
165a79a-7059095-e13bb37-fef39a4-9503d18, also an official rpm for Linux
x86_64. 
But LibreOffice-3.5 only use one socket, the /tmp/OSL_PIPE one. 

Is there a way to turn off these extra sockets in 3.6 ?

Thanks,

-- 
Philippe Naudin

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[libreoffice-users] Japanese font

Hi :)
I have a Japanese friend (in the Cc field) that has been looking for a decent 
(and preferably free!) japanese font.  It seems that a lot of characters still 
get shown as blank boxes ("playing cards").  Does anyone know of a decent and 
fairly comprehensive japanese font?
Regards from
Tom :)  

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Creating High Res Images in Draw or Impress

2012-08-16 Thread Gabriel Risterucci

I'll try to explain more clearly what I did (libreoffice 3.5.5:

1 - create your image or whatever in draw. I created a 5.3/5.3in image
2 - file -> export
3 - choose png (as you were talking about png initially; it might work the
same for other formats)
4 - in the next dialog, it show the good size (5.3/5.3) with 96 dpi. There,
you can put whatever you want, let's say 300dpi.

That's where you have to put *back* the size. If I put 300dpi, the size
shrink to 1,7in, BUT after this you can put back the original size, by
typing 5.3 again.
In the end, it produced a png file with 1593x1593 pixels with a resolution
of 300dpi, which would be printed at 5.3x5.3in

Here's a short video of the process, creating a 300dpi png of a 5.3in
drawing (5.3in == 13,46cm roughly). The drawing is exported, then opened in
gimp to show the image properties:
http://youtu.be/CKPfCgNCGUU

-- 
Cley Faye
http://cleyfaye.net


2012/8/16 anne-ology 

>There are 2 things I've done - one, as Gabriel points out, and the
> other is 'saving as' to whichever image you wish it to be.
>
>Unless you've upgraded to the .5 - which I haven't yet - then this
> should work;
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 4:28 PM, Gabriel Risterucci  >wrote:
>
> When you put the desired dpi value, simply set the size to what you want. I
> > just tried in draw, got a big png :)
> >
> > The fact that it change the size when you change the dpi feels like a bad
> > design issue, though the png export dialog looks quite "raw" as it is.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 2012/8/15 Mary Ellen Bost 
> >
> > > Hi- not sure if this email thread is strictly for reporting bugs but I
> > > have a question and it's worth a shot.
> > >
> > > I hate gimp & need to create a few simple graphics in Draw or Impress.
> > But
> > > they need to be a specific size and high resolution.
> > >
> > > I just created a picture 5.3in x 5.3 inch square in draw & exported it
> as
> > > a png. When the dpi option appeared- it was 48 dpi.
> > >
> > > If I increase the dpi...the image shrinks.
> > >
> > > I know that there is a plug in for PowerPoint that allows you to export
> > > images in created in a ppt as high res.
> > >
> > > Is there any plug in or anything I can do to create a high res image in
> > > any of the Libre Office programs?
> > >
> > > PLEASE! Help
> > >
> > > Thanks!
> > >
> >
>
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Re: [libreoffice-users] turn off header/footer default popup?

2012-08-16 Thread Dan


Jean-Francois Nifenecker wrote:

Le 15/08/2012 21:37, Dan a écrit :


Or you could keep your cursor below the top of the text area of
a document. You could also create a default template which will have a
solid 10% gray line around the text area. Just don't stray above the top
of this "grey box".



The simpler, the better: just set non-printable characters as visible
(F10), you'll also get the text limits (v.3.6). Second, this *should* be
the normal use of a text processor: seeing what's being entered is
crucial, imo.



 I think that the non-printable characters is Control+F10. Using 
F10 opens the File Menu in LO for me.


--Dan

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[Solved] Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: 3.6.0.4 (Build:104) crashes on startup on Mac OS X 10.8.0 (12A269)

Hi :)
Brilliant!  Thanks :)  It's good to hear about how to solve problems 
particularly on Macs.  Thanks for digging-out the answer and eltting us know 
how you did it.  Hopefully it might help someone in the future.  
Thanks and regards from
Tom :)  

--- On Wed, 15/8/12, Ben Smith-Mannschott  wrote:

From: Ben Smith-Mannschott 
Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: 3.6.0.4 (Build:104) crashes on startup on Mac 
OS X 10.8.0 (12A269)
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Wednesday, 15 August, 2012, 10:42

SOLVED

On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 2:47 PM, Ben Smith-Mannschott
 wrote:
> I'm on an iMac running Mountain Lion (Mac OS X 10.8.0).
>
> I just replaced my previous installation of LibreOffice 3.3.4
> (Build:401) with 3.6.0.4 (Build:104). 3.3.4 was working fine. 3.6.0.4
> crashes on startup.
>
> I'm not seeing other posts about this on th, so maybe It's Just Me [TM].

In an off-list mail, Eugene Zaretskiy was kind enough to point me at
the annoying bugs of the release notes located here:

https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/index.php?title=ReleaseNotes/3.6#Most_annoying_bugs

Which reads in part:

# Various problems with bundled extensions. This includes, but is not
# necessarily limited to the below issues. Work-around: manually
# remove the per-user cache for bundled extensions and restart
# LibreOffice. How to do this is platform-dependend.            [sic]
# On Linux, in a terminal window enter
#   “rm -rf ~/.config/libreoffice/3/user/extensions”.
# On Mac OS X, in a Terminal window enter
#   “rm -rf ~/Library/Application\ Support/LibreOffice/3/user/extensions”.
# On Microsoft Windows, in a Command Prompt window enter
#   “rmdir /q /s %appdata%\LibreOffice\3\user\extensions”
# (and note the requirement# to restart LibreOffice twice, see above).

This did the trick for me. LibreOffice starts without problems after
deleting the user/extensions directory.

// Ben

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Sorry for the change but

2012-08-16 Thread Anthony Easthope

I have a feeling it was some spam that the nabble bot might of missed?
although saying that it was an interesting read and thanks who/whatever
you are for the share :P 

On Thu, 16 Aug 2012, at 09:44 AM, Tom Davies wrote:
> Hi :)  
> I'm not entirely sure what any of that has to do with LO or TDF.  
> 
> My views are my own and nothing to do with TDF or LO so i try to keep
> them to myself.  There is no reason to bring politics into this
> world-wide list, especially when it's just 1 country acting in a facist
> way.  
> 
> Great to hear the US is pushing active young people into
> prostitution and other black-market trades.  Starvation and death or
> being deported back to face retribution and possibly torture is always
> a great option.  Certainly a great way for the US to ensure there are
> plenty of people out there that have good reason to dislike or even
> hate the US.  That ensures continuing conflict and ensures future
> arms-sales and ensures the US military can look forward to sending many
> of it's young men and women to serve and possibly die in lands far from
> home.  Wonderful!
> Regards from
> Tom :)  
> 
> --- On Thu, 16/8/12, Lynne Stevens  wrote:
> 
> From: Lynne Stevens 
> Subject: [libreoffice-users] Sorry for the change but
> To: users@global.libreoffice.org
> Date: Thursday, 16 August, 2012, 2:17
> 
> 
> 
> omega
>     The
> Omega sector
> America's Last
> Line of
> Defense
> 
> *Gov jan Brewer just stopped Obamme amnesty dead in it tacks
> YESS
> *
> 
> *http://click.email.iheart.com/?qs=78932a3a2d2d3383f2e8df4d922dd99d7a3b8e20afd16f321097733679e0b8d9
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 
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> deleted
> 


-- 
  
  antiso...@myopera.com

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Error while building LibreOffice from source code in the configure step

Hi :)
I thought slackware deliberately avoided having ANY office suite as part of 
their fairly extremist views about computing?  Probably most of the rest of the 
slackware family have LO in the repos or as the default suite or are moving 
towards it.  I think it's good to have extremists pulling in good directions as 
it helps the rest of us to achieve results when we push more gently and/or to a 
less extreme position.  Short answer is "No, slackware doesn't have LO in it's 
repos."
Regards from
Tom :)  


--- On Wed, 15/8/12, Jay Lozier  wrote:

From: Jay Lozier 
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Error while building LibreOffice from 
source code in the configure step
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Wednesday, 15 August, 2012, 18:14

On 08/15/2012 12:35 PM, WhiteHotLoveTiger wrote:
> I'm having the exact same issue right now. I'm trying to compile LibreOffice
> on Slackware, but I've getting an error with the configure script.
>
> checking which zlib to use... configure: line 22528: syntax error near
> unexpected token 'MINIZIP,'
> configure: line 22518: '        libo_MINGW_CHECK_DLL(MINIZIP, libminizip)'
>
> Did anyone else ever find a solution to this?
I would post this to the dev list. Most on this list probably have never 
built LO from source.

Does Slackware have LO in its repositories? If so, I would install that 
version.
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: 
> http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Error-while-building-LibreOffice-from-source-code-in-the-configure-step-tp3999359p4001556.html
> Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>


-- 
Jay Lozier
jsloz...@gmail.com


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Excuse me, but your opinion is simply unimportant. Start over and you can expect more of the same.

Hi :)
There is so much work that things do often get overlooked for quite a long 
time!  It's not that it's not appreciated!!  

I thought one of the drop-down options allowed people to choose "Feature 
request" or "Wish-list" to make it clearer?  Sorry, i don't know much about 
bugzilla or posting bug reports but it might be on this page
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/BugReport
(if not then it would be great if someone could add it in a useful place there)
Regards from
Tom :)  

--- On Wed, 15/8/12, leif  wrote:

From: leif 
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Excuse me, but your opinion is simply 
unimportant. Start over and you can expect more of the same.
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Wednesday, 15 August, 2012, 19:05

Hi Stuart,
I agree that when we report bug we should do what we can to supply as much 
information as possible. The problem here - from my point of view - is that a 
lot of issues was marked as NEEDINFO by mistake. I have at least one (and its 
my impression that there are more) that doesn't need any info. All it needs is 
a little attention from the QA/devs.

I have posted some issues over time but I don't think I will bother in the 
future. My time seems to be not appreciated?

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=39523

The bug has never been commented by humans and all later activity was automated 
(except the once from my hand).

If QA and dev groups think this approach is the right way to go then I am 
afraid that we will have huge difficulties finding new non-programmers 
participate in the QA-process.

Half the problem is communication. If the process has been more clear and 
accurate it wouldn't have been a problem. Why not explain the process and the 
reason for closing these issues? Why not explain what it means that the issue 
has been closed? Why not explain what the owner could do to re-invoke the 
issue? Why not find another status that "RESOLVED INVALID". These issues are 
not resolved nor invalid.

i try to encourage people to submit issues if they have problems. I also try 
teach them to give enough information. But some are not very good at English 
and others are not very technical minded. These "amateurs" got scarred and will 
stay away in the future. That is not what we need at current. We need to 
embrace and encourage - not scare away.

Cheers,
Leif

On 15-08-2012 19:20, V Stuart Foote wrote:
> Yes the apology was issued over on the Dev and QA lists--inserted below.
> But we folks on the QA and User side do have a responsibility to follow our
> bugs when posted, and to participate when calls for NEEDINFO are issued. And
> also, that when bugs are closed we reopen them with careful attention to the
> information needed to fully describe the bug and the quality of detail the
> Devs will needs to resolve.
> 
> Otherwise, let's move on folks!
> 
> Stuart

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Re: [libreoffice-users] turn off header/footer default popup?

Hi :)
My preference would be to simply ignore the blue-line and the invitation.  You 
can always change the colour of the line in 
Tools - Options - Appearance
(i think.  Somewhere around there anyway).  I made mine dark-red because i just 
hate blue.  Blue is too corporate and over-used imo.  
Regards from
Tom :)  


--- On Wed, 15/8/12, anne-ology  wrote:

From: anne-ology 
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] turn off header/footer default popup?
To: "Don Anderson" 
Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Wednesday, 15 August, 2012, 20:24

       So here's another reason not to update from 3.4;
           my suggestion would be to delete this version and re-install the
previous one, where these can be turned off.



On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 4:47 PM, Don Anderson  wrote:

Hello, I am not quite sure how to use this listserv, so my apologies if I
> am doing something incorrectly.
>
> Using LO 3.5.3.2, everytime I'm near the top of a page in Writer, a blue
> line appears and the words "Header (Default)" inviting me to type in the
> header field.  Likewise with the footer when I'm near the bottom of the
> page.
>
> Is there any way to turn this behavior off?
>

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Re: [libreoffice-users] unsubscribe

Hi Florian :)

We normally try to fix the problem on-list before contacting you. 
Usually people just need a gentle nudge towards the documentation in
the signature of all mails from the lists.  

Thanks tho and regards from

Tom :)  



--- On Thu, 16/8/12, Florian Effenberger  wrote:

From: Florian Effenberger 
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] unsubscribe
To: "Michael Smith" 
Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Thursday, 16 August, 2012, 10:15

Hello,

Michael Smith wrote on 2012-08-16 00:33:
> unsubscribe

I tried to unsubscribe you manually, but the @yahoo.com address you used to 
write this message is not subscribed to the list. Do you maybe use an alias?

Florian

-- Florian Effenberger, Chairman of the Board (Vorstandsvorsitzender)
Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108
The Document Foundation, Zimmerstr. 69, 10117 Berlin, Germany
Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts
Legal details: http://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint

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Re: [libreoffice-users] unsubscribe

2012-08-16 Thread Florian Effenberger


Hello,

Michael Smith wrote on 2012-08-16 00:33:

unsubscribe


I tried to unsubscribe you manually, but the @yahoo.com address you used 
to write this message is not subscribed to the list. Do you maybe use an 
alias?


Florian

--
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Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108
The Document Foundation, Zimmerstr. 69, 10117 Berlin, Germany
Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts
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Re: [libreoffice-users] Another question concerning Base

Hi :)
There is a little documentation at
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Publications#LibreOffice_Base_Guide
but the most useful thing (for Base) is the Faq
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Faq
also if you scroll down the Publications page you might notice a few other 
interesting things offered by 3rd parties.  

It seems that Apache OpenOffice has far more resources for Base users where TDF 
has little or nothing except when Dan, Andreas, Alex or a few other notable 
individuals get involved with a particular question.  If you search the Apach 
OpenOffice (AOO) forums you will find an entire section for Base with a lot of 
interesting threads.  If you ask a question there then it might be kinder to 
avoid stating you are using LO instead of AOO but if they ask for version 
numbers there is no avoiding it as LO develops much faster than AOO.  

Regards from
also Tom :)


--- On Wed, 15/8/12, Thomas Taylor  wrote:

From: Thomas Taylor 
Subject: [libreoffice-users] Another question concerning Base
To: "LibreOffice Users group" 
Date: Wednesday, 15 August, 2012, 23:56

When creating a table in Base with the wizard, is it possible to use a
boolean (yes/no) to control further input fields?  If so, how please?
my assumption is that entry conditional control must be done without
the wizard.

Also, can someone recommend a book about LibreOffice that gives good
descriptions and examples?

Thanks, Tom

-- 
“What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the
world remains and is immortal.”  Albert Pine
--
Tom Taylor - retired penguin
AMD Phenom II x4 955 -- 4GB RAM -- 2x1.5TB sata2
openSUSE 12.1x86_64    openSUSE 12.2x86_64
KDE 4.7.2, FF 7.0      KDE 4.8.4, FF 13.0
claws-mail 3.8.0
registered linux user 263467
linxt-At-comcast-DoT-net

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Reply settings on this list have changed

Hi :)
One event in 2 years is not worth creating a big fuss over.  It got fixed 
through some excellent work by Florian (as usual) and i think someone else.  
The vast majority of people seem to  realise that anything can go very public 
and perhaps even "go viral" very fast.  

We seldom seem to run into the problem of people not realise how to unsubscribe 
anymore either so perhaps people are just becoming more familiar with the 
problems of modern times and typical work-arounds (such as giving info in the 
sig at the bottom).  


While most email-client may have an easy way to "reply to list" the ones that 
are used by most people do not have the functionality and i can't imagine 
Microsoft adding it just to make things easier for TDF.  If we are aiming at 
avoiding converting or migrating MS Office users then making things difficult 
for them is fine.  

Most replies are really aimed at the list.  If they go elsewhere then that 
becomes confusing.  If people do want to respond off-list then it's fairly easy 
to copy&paste an appropriate address into the "To" field.  


I thought the guide was interesting but it looked old and unaware of the 
problems that TDF faces.  The writer uses a very non-standard (NOT the smae as 
complying with ISO standards!) email-client and doesn't seem to give a hoot 
about anyone else.  


Normally i wouldn't mind trying something new like this for a couple of days 
but the timing makes it a total pita for me as i have hundreds of emails to get 
through and 2 clicks instead of 1 is a pita that i wouldn't normally notice so 
much.  
Regards from
Tom :)  


--- On Thu, 16/8/12, anne-ology  wrote:

From: anne-ology 
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Reply settings on this list have changed
To: "Bjørn Nilssen" 
Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Thursday, 16 August, 2012, 1:15

       exactly;
           and well expressed.



On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 4:24 PM, Bjørn K Nilssen  wrote:

På Sun, 12 Aug 2012 18:31:07 +0200, skrev Florian Effenberger <
> flo...@documentfoundation.org**>:
>
>
>  Hello,
>>
>> this is to inform you that the reply settings on this list have changed
>> (so-called "Reply to mangling" has been disabled).
>>
>> So far, e-mails had set a reply-to the mailing list address. In other
>> words, with any e-mail client, replies to e-mails on the list were
>> automatically sent directly to the list.
>>
>
> Which is the whole idea of a mailing list IMO.
>
>
>
>  In the past, this lead to two major problems:
>>
>> 1. Several times, people have sent direct replies to the public list,
>> where deleting them is nearly impossible. I remember at least one case
>> where confidential information has been sent out that caused lots of
>> worries for the sender and his employer. This happened because people hit
>> "reply" and thought it would reply to the sender only.
>>
>
> That some people send private mail in public can't be a good argument to
> stop/hamper the flow on a miling list - surely?
>
>
>  2. I have heard complaints in the past from people, stating that working
>> with the non-developer lists of LibreOffice is a pain for them, because of
>> reply-to mangling, resulting in a lack of communication. This also led to
>> the fact that numerous tasks were done by the same people, who needed to
>> spend more and more time, instead of sharing the work burden with others.
>> While I do not fully believe this argument, there's just one way to find
>> out...
>>
>> Therefore, I have applied a change:
>>
>> Replies to e-mails from the list now only go to the original sender. You
>> either need to use the "reply to all" feature of your e-mail program, or -
>> preferably - the "reply to list"/"reply to group" feature, which will
>> direct replies directly to the list.
>>
>> This is common practice on most mailing lists, and even the default
>> setting for our mailing list software, so we did not re-invent the wheel
>> here. Those seeking for details should have a look at
>> http://www.unicom.com/pw/**reply-to-harmful.html
>>
>
> I checked every single one of my 52 current mailing lists, and not one
> single one of them follows that rule (except this one). One of them used
> the senders email + the list email in the Reply-To field, but that's it.
> And that list isn't really for discussing, but just for one-way information.
>
> I'd like to see some statistics that shows that 'most mailing lists' does
> not put the list address in the Reply-To field ?
>
> And where is the RFC?
>
> And the poll?
> Looks like most people wants to get it back to how it was, which is how
> all my other 51 lists still are?
> Using the 'Reply to all' option is not a good idea at all IMO.
>
>
>  I know we had numerous discussions on this topic in the past, but the
>> outcome was that roughly 50% were for this change, and 50% refused it, so I
>> am really sitting between two chairs here, for which I beg for your
>> understanding. On the one hand, those com

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Excuse me, but your opinion is simply unimportant. Start over and you can expect more of the same.

Hi :)
Interesting thought and a good diagram, thanks :)  

Something i have wondered for a while is how to utilise what this particular 
list has to offer, perhaps confirming bug-reports could be partially done 
through this list?

Occasionally someone new on this list expresses an interest in getting more 
involved or somehow repaying the community.  Also this list is quite good at 
eventually pinning-down exactly what an initial question was probably really 
asking.  

People here generally don't have much time or experience but might be willing 
to push a couple of buttons to see if something really doesn't work, especially 
if it's not risky.  

Could we have a weekly report listing  unconfirmed bug-reports generated during 
the week?  Would it be easier to have a link that listed all the 'thousands' of 
unconfirmed bug-reports?  Is it thousands or (as i suspect) much much lower?  

Ideally it would be great to have devs doing development rather than devs 
spending time trying to work at customer-relations and guessing at what people 
meant by certain bug-reports.  

Just my 2pence-worth
Regards from
Tom :)  

--- On Thu, 16/8/12, Andrew Brager  wrote:

From: Andrew Brager 
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Excuse me, but your opinion is simply 
unimportant. Start over and you can expect more of the same.
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Thursday, 16 August, 2012, 1:16

On 8/15/2012 3:20 PM, Marc Grober wrote:
> On 8/15/12 1:57 PM, Andrew Brager wrote:
>> Thanks for your comments.  What still remains unclear to me (not that it
>> matters as I have no influence/authority on anything done by anyone  -
>> I'm simply trying to help you all sort it out so somebody in a position
>> to do something can then do it) is whether the bug status was changed in
>> that 5 month period between when you re-confirmed the bug, and when it
>> was closed.
>> 
>> In other words, did it get changed from NEEDINFO to NEW when you
>> reconfirmed the bug, as was implied should have happened?  Or did it go
>> from NEEDINFO to CLOSED with no intervening status?  If the latter, then
>> in my opinion there's a bug in bugzilla as (I would think) it should
>> have changed when you reconfirmed the bug.  If the former, then there's
>> a problem with the process, not the tool.  The answers to those
>> questions will answer the question "which one needs fixing?"  If the
>> process needs fixing, then in my opinion there needs to be additional
>> status flags and additional feedback from the developers as I previously
>> wrote.
>> 
>> Based on Florien's post, it sounds like he only closed those that were
>> in the NEEDINFO state, which implies there's a bug in bugzilla as I
>> state above.
> I think there is another possibility, and that is that the bug lifecycle
> is dubious. See, https://bugs.freedesktop.org/docs/en/html/lifecycle.html

That diagram is in fact interesting.  Based on that diagram (which may or may 
not be utilized by the LO team), then the process followed by the LO team is in 
error.  They've chosen to dump unconfirmed bugs back on the user community, 
instead of confirming the bugs themselves.  I can understand why they've done 
it, the work is probably overwhelming and they're volunteers so they've chosen 
to let each individual user/bug submitter either resubmit or assume resolved 
status.  Not a bad choice from their point of view, it's the path of least work 
for them.  It makes sense from that viewpoint.  The proper way to do it would 
have been to check each bug themselves as normally would be done prior to a 
production release.  They took the practical, expedient approach instead and I 
don't think you can fault them for doing so.

> With respect to LO bugs,  it is still unclear what the various stages of
> the bug lifecycle is, and who is empowered to make various changes to
> the bug status. As an unempowered user I cannot "confirm" a bug.

Nor should you be able to confirm a bug.  And that of course is where the model 
(or process) is broken, since as I mentioned above they've dumped the testing 
back on the user - with decent reasoning - but it still breaks the model as 
provided by the diagram.  So yes, somebody on the developer's side needs to 
make some decisions as to how best to fix the model and/or process.  Personally 
I don't see a problem with their decision to dump the bugs back on the user 
considering they themselves are volunteers, but somewhere somehow the status 
needs to change from NEEDINFO to NEW (which is not provided for in the model so 
clearly things have changed either with the model as supplied by bugzilla, or 
the LO team has customized their copy.  So, I reiterate my previous comment 
that more info. is needed from the bug submitters as to what stages the status 
flags went through to determine whether it's the process or bugzilla that needs 
fixing.

> Moreover, there is no context help available regarding status hierarchy.
> 
> What I think I am seeing, as in so many suc

Re: [libreoffice-users] Sorry for the change but

Hi :)  
I'm not entirely sure what any of that has to do with LO or TDF.  

My views are my own and nothing to do with TDF or LO so i try to keep them to 
myself.  There is no reason to bring politics into this world-wide list, 
especially when it's just 1 country acting in a facist way.  

Great to hear the US is pushing active young people into
prostitution and other black-market trades.  Starvation and death or
being deported back to face retribution and possibly torture is always
a great option.  Certainly a great way for the US to ensure there are
plenty of people out there that have good reason to dislike or even
hate the US.  That ensures continuing conflict and ensures future
arms-sales and ensures the US military can look forward to sending many
of it's young men and women to serve and possibly die in lands far from
home.  Wonderful!
Regards from
Tom :)  

--- On Thu, 16/8/12, Lynne Stevens  wrote:

From: Lynne Stevens 
Subject: [libreoffice-users] Sorry for the change but
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Thursday, 16 August, 2012, 2:17



omega
    The
Omega sector
America's Last
Line of
Defense

*Gov jan Brewer just stopped Obamme amnesty dead in it tacks
YESS
*

*http://click.email.iheart.com/?qs=78932a3a2d2d3383f2e8df4d922dd99d7a3b8e20afd16f321097733679e0b8d9


*


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Re: [libreoffice-users] turn off header/footer default popup?

Hi :)
Most word-processors (and incl LO, of course) have a strange
backwards P icon on one of the icon-menus/tool-bars at the top.  You
can switch it on or off for your machine without affecting the way that
other people (on other machines) view your document because they have
their own setting for it.  

It's good to learn the F10 route to save me from having to reach for the mouse 
so much.  Thanks Jean :)
Good luck and regards from
Tom :)  

--- On Thu, 16/8/12, Jean-Francois Nifenecker 
 wrote:

From: Jean-Francois Nifenecker 
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] turn off header/footer default popup?
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Thursday, 16 August, 2012, 6:39

Le 15/08/2012 21:37, Dan a écrit :
> 
>         Or you could keep your cursor below the top of the text area of
> a document. You could also create a default template which will have a
> solid 10% gray line around the text area. Just don't stray above the top
> of this "grey box".
> 

The simpler, the better: just set non-printable characters as visible (F10), 
you'll also get the text limits (v.3.6). Second, this *should* be the normal 
use of a text processor: seeing what's being entered is crucial, imo.

-- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Reply settings on this list have changed