Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
-Original Message-
From: j...@earthlink.net
Sent: Sat, 02 Feb 2013 12:58:53 -0800
To: users@lists.fedoraproject.org
Subject: Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On 2013/02/02 10:39, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 02/02/2013 07:33 AM, Lailah wrote:
I never see that in my life. People, I know is fun to make jokes with
TV series and movies and the like, but think that this is an
international list. The Whole World hasn't any due to know all of your
stuff.
That, in fact, was exactly what I was demonstrating: for most of the
people on
this list, that was long before they were born. For me, however, it's
the type
of reference I'd recognize, and I tend to forget sometimes that my
audience
isn't old enough to share those experiences.
Of course some people use j instead of i when dealing with complex
numbers. j am one of them.
{O,o} I guess that makes me irrational?
No, you'd need a number like 2, 3, 5 or any prime inside of the square root!
to be irrational :) The j and k we could use with vectors and hamiltonians :)
--
If we want instead of using I or i, let's just use
$\sqrt{-1}$
and we'd be better off! At least internationally it is accepted worldwide!
Best Regards,
Antonio
FREE 3D EARTH SCREENSAVER - Watch the Earth right on your desktop!
Check it out at http://www.inbox.com/earth
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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
El sáb, 02-02-2013 a las 18:49 +, David G.Miller escribió: Antonio Olivares wingators at inbox.com writes: And, on a more international note, if somebody just mentions the war, which war do you think of first? War between the States!(Civil War) I used to work with a gentleman who grew up in northern Virginia. He said it wasn't until he was in high school that he realized that the Civil War and The War of Northern Aggression were two different names for the same event. I'd swear that one of the most valuable contributions I make to any project I work on is making sure that all of the people involved have the same understanding of what we're doing and how we're going about doing it (frequently that even entails me changing my view of what that is). My vote is for anything that promotes clear communication and solidly against anything that makes clear communication more difficult. Cheers, Dave I'm with you David. Communication has to be as clear as we can. Especially because this is an international list. There's no culture or mother language as a common base. Cheers, Lailah signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On 02/01/2013 05:49 PM, Craig White wrote: good grammar is actually a useful endeavor. The purpose of this list is communication. Good grammar facilitates it while bad grammar impedes it. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On Sat, 2013-02-02 at 01:36 -0800, Joe Zeff wrote: On 02/01/2013 05:49 PM, Craig White wrote: good grammar is actually a useful endeavor. The purpose of this list is communication. Good grammar facilitates it while bad grammar impedes it. but you are making a vacuous point and I would suggest that if you wanted to give it validity, you only need to show us a message on this list that lacking all reasonable excuses [1] someone's faulty grammar impeded their communication. There's your challenge... show me that you're not just making a vacuous point. [1] Many reasons have already been given such as dyslexia, English is not their first language, small device usage makes typing accurately much more difficult, etc. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On 02/02/2013 01:51 AM, Craig White wrote: There's your challenge... show me that you're not just making a vacuous point. You're the one asserting, without evidence or any attempt at proof that my point is vacuous. It's not up to me to refute your baseless claim it's up to you to establish it. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 02:02:18 -0800 Joe Zeff j...@zeff.us wrote: On 02/02/2013 01:51 AM, Craig White wrote: There's your challenge... show me that you're not just making a vacuous point. You're the one asserting, without evidence or any attempt at proof that my point is vacuous. It's not up to me to refute your baseless claim it's up to you to establish it. I,m dyslexic, also have brain problems. -- Regards, Frank http//www.frankly3d.com -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On Sat, Feb 2, 2013 at 1:49 AM, Craig White craigwh...@azapple.com wrote: Probably in another form, another time and space (and medium), you and Patrick and I might become best of friends but I gotta tell you, get over yourself and your opinions and focus on something that actually matters. Craig and Joe I think we should just end this. It's leading nowhere and I suspect any valid point on either side has already been aired. I do not regret bringing up the grammar issue in the first place because I think communication matters and we should all try to do it as best we can (arguments about irrelevance of grammatical rules notwithstanding). If it makes some people review their posts before hitting Send, then fine. If it causes some not to post for fear of criticism, then that was never the idea and I hope they don't feel inhibited. All the best. poc -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On Sat, 2013-02-02 at 02:02 -0800, Joe Zeff wrote: On 02/02/2013 01:51 AM, Craig White wrote: There's your challenge... show me that you're not just making a vacuous point. You're the one asserting, without evidence or any attempt at proof that my point is vacuous. It's not up to me to refute your baseless claim it's up to you to establish it. I haven't the slightest clue on how to prove that there isn't a problem. I didn't claim there is a problem on this list - I said quite the opposite... there isn't a problem. Thus I never made a claim of a problem and can't reasonably be expected to prove something that doesn't exist. On the other hand, you are claiming there is a grammar problem on the list and I requested that you offer proof rather than trying to score a vacuous point. Perhaps that is your point though, bombastically scoring meaningless points. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
El vie, 01-02-2013 a las 13:45 -0800, Joe Zeff escribió: On 02/01/2013 01:32 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: I see you are prey to the misconception that I am familiar with the history of US sitcoms. While I've seen several of them, not being American myself I can't say I know this one. I wasn't aware that you aren't an American, and I don't know how much foreign exposure the show had. Still, you can see why it's highly unlikely that anybody of what you and I would call the younger generation would have any more of an idea what I was talking about than you did. And, on a more international note, if somebody just mentions the war, which war do you think of first? I think that for most people it depends on their age because they'll think of either the first one in their lifetime or the first one they learned about when they were young. I'm a 'Nam vet, but to me, the first war I'll always think of is going to be WW II because its after effects were still big when I was a child. Yes, there was Korea when I was small, but it didn't have any impact on me, especially when compared to WW II. Hello! In my country, Uruguay (between Argentine and Brazil), teachers used to teach us History saying The Great War (La Gran Guerra) to talk about World War I, and The World War (La Guerra Mundial) to talk about World War II. So, to me, to say The War means nothing. I had the bad luck to been born in an age full of wars :-S Regards from south, Lailah attachment: face-worried.png signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
El vie, 01-02-2013 a las 12:26 -0800, Joe Zeff escribió: On 02/01/2013 11:13 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: As the ox ploughs IIRC (or plows if you prefer). I don't know if there are any examples of the Romans using that, and the Greeks only did it sometimes, probably to annoy people on mailing lists :-) Very good! And yes, AFAIK the Romans didn't copy that. Please understand, BTW, that I don't do things like that simply to see if anybody understands it. I do it because I assume that a fair number of you will recognize what I'm saying and won't have to ask. Wandering even farther off-topic for a moment, I often have a problem when talking to younger people: I like to make pop culture references, and tend to forget that what I'm referring to was way before anybody else in the conversation was born. As an example, does anybody reading this know what I mean by an identical cousin? Nope signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
El vie, 01-02-2013 a las 14:41 -0800, Antonio Olivares escribió: And, on a more international note, if somebody just mentions the war, which war do you think of first? War on Drugs! War between the States!(Civil War) War of 1812! Spanish American War(1898--??) War (WWI, WW2), Korea(which was not a war BTW), VietNam(also not a war), Iraq(1990, ...), Afghanistan, ..., etc There are many ``wars'', the war on Open Source, the ``war against Gnome 3'', the ``war against Unity'', the war against the U.S. Constitution. The war of ``Good'' vs ``Bad'' or ``Evil''. There are many wars. and some to come to, North Korea, Israel, Pakistan, Syria, Turkey, Iran, ... it never finishes :( I wish we could all be little kids and like each other regardless of ethnicity, country, and play and get along well not to repeat the mistakes that have been made throughout history, but life is sadly not like that :( Some students tell others that there is no i in TEAM, but there is in TIM if its misspelled to suit their needs. And as has been mentioned, it is[(it's) vs its], [your vs you're, which corresponds to you are] plus others metioned by Marko V. The dotless i, the o with the dots ö, there are many things that change depending on the area one is in. Pena is not the same as Peña, and Trevino is not the same as Treviño, and ... Best Regards, Antonio Very true. Lailah signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
El vie, 01-02-2013 a las 13:19 -0800, Joe Zeff escribió: On 02/01/2013 01:05 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 8:26 PM, Joe Zeff j...@zeff.us mailto:j...@zeff.us wrote: As an example, does anybody reading this know what I mean by an identical cousin? Not I, but then I'm only 63. poc So am I. Follow this link and try not to kick yourself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patty_Duke_Show I never see that in my life. People, I know is fun to make jokes with TV series and movies and the like, but think that this is an international list. The Whole World hasn't any due to know all of your stuff. Regards from south, Lailah signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On 02/02/2013 07:22 AM, Craig White wrote: Perhaps that is your point though, bombastically scoring meaningless points. And now we see the complete lack of content in your position: argument by insult. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On 02/02/2013 07:33 AM, Lailah wrote: I never see that in my life. People, I know is fun to make jokes with TV series and movies and the like, but think that this is an international list. The Whole World hasn't any due to know all of your stuff. That, in fact, was exactly what I was demonstrating: for most of the people on this list, that was long before they were born. For me, however, it's the type of reference I'd recognize, and I tend to forget sometimes that my audience isn't old enough to share those experiences. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
Antonio Olivares wingators at inbox.com writes: And, on a more international note, if somebody just mentions the war, which war do you think of first? War between the States!(Civil War) I used to work with a gentleman who grew up in northern Virginia. He said it wasn't until he was in high school that he realized that the Civil War and The War of Northern Aggression were two different names for the same event. I'd swear that one of the most valuable contributions I make to any project I work on is making sure that all of the people involved have the same understanding of what we're doing and how we're going about doing it (frequently that even entails me changing my view of what that is). My vote is for anything that promotes clear communication and solidly against anything that makes clear communication more difficult. Cheers, Dave -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On 2013/02/02 10:39, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 02/02/2013 07:33 AM, Lailah wrote:
I never see that in my life. People, I know is fun to make jokes with
TV series and movies and the like, but think that this is an
international list. The Whole World hasn't any due to know all of your
stuff.
That, in fact, was exactly what I was demonstrating: for most of the people on
this list, that was long before they were born. For me, however, it's the type
of reference I'd recognize, and I tend to forget sometimes that my audience
isn't old enough to share those experiences.
Of course some people use j instead of i when dealing with complex
numbers. j am one of them.
{O,o} I guess that makes me irrational?
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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On 02/02/2013 03:58 PM, jdow wrote: On 2013/02/02 10:39, Joe Zeff wrote: On 02/02/2013 07:33 AM, Lailah wrote: I never see that in my life. People, I know is fun to make jokes with TV series and movies and the like, but think that this is an international list. The Whole World hasn't any due to know all of your stuff. That, in fact, was exactly what I was demonstrating: for most of the people on this list, that was long before they were born. For me, however, it's the type of reference I'd recognize, and I tend to forget sometimes that my audience isn't old enough to share those experiences. I'm getting tired of this thread, but before I go, I will say that I am definitely old enough to have seen the TV show if I were dumb enough to watch sitcoms! --doug -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On 02/02/2013 12:58 PM, jdow wrote:
{O,o} I guess that makes me irrational?
I'm sorry, but the number you have reached is imaginary. Please rotate
your phone ninety degrees and try again.
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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On 02/01/2013 08:16 PM, Joe Zeff wrote: On 02/01/2013 04:52 PM, Craig White wrote: It's clear that you want this e-mail list, informal as it is to respect your sense of proper grammar. No, it's not his sense of proper grammar, it's proper grammar as it's been taught in schools in every English speaking country for over a century now. As I see it, there are three reasons people's grammar on this list falls short. This is an international list and not all of the members have English as their first (or even second) language. My attitude is that they're doing the best they can and as long as I can work out what they originally meant, that's all that matters. Second, there are native English speakers who either were never taught properly in school (I have a friend who has trouble with homonyms, using flue for flew and other such errors because of problems when she was young.) And, of course, there are the people who were exposed to proper grammar, syntax and word usage but simply don't care. On some mailing lists, people in both of the latter two groups would be flamed for their errors. On this one, I keep my opinions to myself because I can't see any way it could possibly help and many ways it could end up making trouble for everybody. Back in the days on some IETF lists we had a Japanese professor who's English was phenomenally good and would flame native speakers on their grammer. Of course the gentleman could not speak a clear word of English (and still can't when I occationally meet up with him) which we all put up with as his genius really fixed a number of protocols that just were not going right. There are a number of protocols you here use all the time that we would still be reving if he had not gotten up in a meeting and said, here is how we should do this. Now, of course, we're in a long, OT discussion of the issue and I think that if nothing else, it's let all of us who don't like bad grammar to air our opinions instead of bottling them up as we'd normally do. No, I don't expect this to result in any change, but who knows; somebody might decide to be more careful because they'd never realized how it looks to others. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On 02/01/2013 08:19 PM, doug wrote: On 02/01/2013 07:52 PM, Craig White wrote: /snip/ Reminds me of a book that I bought that looked interesting... Eats Shoots Leaves by Lynn Truss. It was about the need for things like punctuation to clarify the intent of something. In the end, the author includes a number of self adhesive commas, apostrophes, periods, semi-colons and colons so one can fix the world's signage guerrilla style. Yes, it's that absurd. It doesn't matter. I edit a small newsletter with about 1000 subscribers, and we get input from a variety of sources. For some of them, I have promised to ship a barrel of commas, to be used liberally! In IEEE 802 document editing we use them liberally. It is EXTREMELY important that a later reader, who is not native to English MUST be able to read the document and implement the chip design and code correctly. We seem to debate endlessly the proper grammer and comma placement. But then we have been burned badly in times past and know it is important to get it right. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 12:58:53 -0800
jdow j...@earthlink.net wrote:
Of course some people use j instead of i when dealing with complex
numbers. j am one of them.
{O,o} I guess that makes me irrational?
I think you wanted to ask J guess that makes me irrational?. Note
the use of j instead of i.
Either way, it makes you imaginary, not irrational... ;-)
Best, :-)
Marko
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Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On 02/02/2013 05:04 AM, Frank Murphy wrote: On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 02:02:18 -0800 Joe Zeff j...@zeff.us wrote: On 02/02/2013 01:51 AM, Craig White wrote: There's your challenge... show me that you're not just making a vacuous point. You're the one asserting, without evidence or any attempt at proof that my point is vacuous. It's not up to me to refute your baseless claim it's up to you to establish it. I,m dyslexic, also have brain problems. And fortunately for this dyslexic, in 7th grade English we REALLY learned grammer. We did sentence grammer trees; something that none of my children ever benefited from. Actually that visualization of grammer can make all the difference to a dyslexic (read The Gift of Dyslexia by Ron Burns); we think visually and have to translate back and forth to linear language. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On 02/02/2013 10:33 AM, Lailah wrote: El vie, 01-02-2013 a las 13:19 -0800, Joe Zeff escribió: On 02/01/2013 01:05 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 8:26 PM, Joe Zeff j...@zeff.us mailto:j...@zeff.us mailto:j...@zeff.us wrote: As an example, does anybody reading this know what I mean by an identical cousin? Not I, but then I'm only 63. poc So am I. Follow this link and try not to kick yourself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patty_Duke_Show I never see that in my life. People, I know is fun to make jokes with TV series and movies and the like, but think that this is an international list. The Whole World hasn't any due to know all of your stuff. I learned this with RFC 2410, the Null Cypher for IPsec. I was chair for IPsec at the time and I encouraged the authors to have fun with the RFC. We have a lot of fun tidbits in various RFCs beyond the April 1st RFCs. Read 2410, it CAN be fun, but a lot on non-US people will NOT get it. Plus now almost 20 years later, the issues with ITAR have been forgotten by even US developers. But when I worked on IPsec certification in ICSAlabs (I helped set up the ICSAlabs IPsec certification process) we got a asian implementation that would not interoperate with any other product for the Null cypher. I won't go into details, but they took parts of the jokes in 2410 seriously and implemented them; wrongly. So every other product that got this right dropped the ISAKMP handshake with their product. There were some REALLY upset people in that company over this. So I learned a real lesson on care in writing were people will come along later without the context. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On 3 February 2013 01:13, Robert Moskowitz r...@htt-consult.com wrote: On 02/02/2013 05:04 AM, Frank Murphy wrote: On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 02:02:18 -0800 Joe Zeff j...@zeff.us wrote: On 02/02/2013 01:51 AM, Craig White wrote: There's your challenge... show me that you're not just making a vacuous point. You're the one asserting, without evidence or any attempt at proof that my point is vacuous. It's not up to me to refute your baseless claim it's up to you to establish it. I,m dyslexic, also have brain problems. And fortunately for this dyslexic, in 7th grade English we REALLY learned grammer. We did sentence grammer trees; something that none of my children ever benefited from. Actually that visualization of grammer can make all the difference to a dyslexic (read The Gift of Dyslexia by Ron Burns); we think visually and have to translate back and forth to linear language. Dyslexia is quite a specific thing that shouldn't prevent anyone from further learning (unfortunately it does due to the integral part reading plays in early education and, until fairly recently, poor recognition). Proust and the Squid is another interesting book that touches on this topic, and learning written English in general. There was another post somewhere complaining about Eats, Shoots and Leaves which seems to have missed that it's meant to be funny (the clue is in the title). -- imalone http://ibmalone.blogspot.co.uk -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On 02/02/2013 08:38 PM, Ian Malone wrote: On 3 February 2013 01:13, Robert Moskowitz r...@htt-consult.com wrote: On 02/02/2013 05:04 AM, Frank Murphy wrote: On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 02:02:18 -0800 Joe Zeff j...@zeff.us wrote: On 02/02/2013 01:51 AM, Craig White wrote: There's your challenge... show me that you're not just making a vacuous point. You're the one asserting, without evidence or any attempt at proof that my point is vacuous. It's not up to me to refute your baseless claim it's up to you to establish it. I,m dyslexic, also have brain problems. And fortunately for this dyslexic, in 7th grade English we REALLY learned grammer. We did sentence grammer trees; something that none of my children ever benefited from. Actually that visualization of grammer can make all the difference to a dyslexic (read The Gift of Dyslexia by Ron Burns); we think visually and have to translate back and forth to linear language. Dyslexia is quite a specific thing that shouldn't prevent anyone from further learning (unfortunately it does due to the integral part reading plays in early education and, until fairly recently, poor recognition). Proust and the Squid is another interesting book that touches on this topic, and learning written English in general. There was another post somewhere complaining about Eats, Shoots and Leaves which seems to have missed that it's meant to be funny (the clue is in the title). Read it. Loved it. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On 02/02/2013 08:06 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote: On 02/01/2013 08:16 PM, Joe Zeff wrote: On 02/01/2013 04:52 PM, Craig White wrote: It's clear that you want this e-mail list, informal as it is to respect your sense of proper grammar. No, it's not his sense of proper grammar, it's proper grammar as it's been taught in schools in every English speaking country for over a century now. As I see it, there are three reasons people's grammar on this list falls short. This is an international list and not all of the members have English as their first (or even second) language. My attitude is that they're doing the best they can and as long as I can work out what they originally meant, that's all that matters. Second, there are native English speakers who either were never taught properly in school (I have a friend who has trouble with homonyms, using flue for flew and other such errors because of problems when she was young.) And, of course, there are the people who were exposed to proper grammar, syntax and word usage but simply don't care. On some mailing lists, people in both of the latter two groups would be flamed for their errors. On this one, I keep my opinions to myself because I can't see any way it could possibly help and many ways it could end up making trouble for everybody. Back in the days on some IETF lists we had a Japanese professor who's English was phenomenally good and would flame native speakers on their grammer. Of course the gentleman could not speak a clear word of English (and still can't when I occationally meet up with him) which we all put up with as his genius really fixed a number of protocols that just were not going right. There are a number of protocols you here use all the time that we would still be reving if he had not gotten up in a meeting and said, here is how we should do this. Now, of course, we're in a long, OT discussion of the issue and I think that if nothing else, it's let all of us who don't like bad grammar to air our opinions instead of bottling them up as we'd normally do. No, I don't expect this to result in any change, but who knows; somebody might decide to be more careful because they'd never realized how it looks to others. Of myself I have been taught English and know the proper usage of both the present and past-participles...(LoL!) But I find that I might make an error here and there, and I don't always spell check, so they might get through. I realize this is not an excuse to be lazy and rely on a spell-checker to correct my English, but some people might have no choice but to rely on it because their English is not their first language. And I agree with you, as long as you can get the gist of what the person is saying or asking, you should be polite enough to not correct their every error. EGO II -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
Am 01.02.2013 07:29, schrieb Ralf Corsepius: On 02/01/2013 01:44 AM, Reindl Harald wrote: Am 01.02.2013 01:35, schrieb Patrick O'Callaghan: Reading is not done letter by letter or word by word, but in larger units, and every time I see 'i' instead of 'I', it interrupts my train of comprehension well, that is your personal problem in fact here in german speaking countries there are way more words which are normally not written lowercase at all but nobody has a problem these days read sms, email and so on without a single uppercase letter Harald, you're in error. Many German speaking people consider style of writing you are using here, to be rude, disrespectful and childish - I am one of these fine that i work with people for which is content more important than style - the other way is childish for me signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On Fri, 01 Feb 2013 05:32:47 + Patrick O'Callaghan pocallag...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, 2013-02-01 at 15:12 +1030, Tim wrote: The misuse of loose and lose bugs me the most, second is probably dose instead of does. I'm with you there. Also the confusion between choose and chose. Also your and you're, it's and its. ;-) HTH, :-) Marko -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On 02/01/2013 05:38 AM, Ed Greshko wrote: This list is better off without the grammar, spelling, and style police. If you can't figure out what someone is saying then you should not feel obliged to read it or answer it. thank you. i could not agree with you more. there are way too many on this list that live such a life that they do not believe that their way is the only way to do things. -- peace out. tc.hago, g . in a free world without fences, who needs gates. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On 31 January 2013 23:37, Marko Vojinovic vvma...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 15:55:08 + Patrick O'Callaghan pocallag...@gmail.com wrote: Just out of interest, why do some people use the non-existent word i, not to mention other violations of capitalization rules when 1) their Shift key is clearly not broken, and 2) they aren't the poet e.e. cummings? I've seen a number of people do this (admittedly a tiny minority) and never understood it. Do they think it's cool? Are they expressing their inner rebel? Were they punished by their English teacher at school? Is hitting Shift too much effort? Enquiring minds want to know. Speaking of that, I never understood why is the I capitalized in English? Or, to rephrase it in your words, what's with the I? ;-) To begin with, I don't know of any other language which capitalizes this word. Also, while my English teachers were always very explicit that the I should always be capitalized, none of them has ever managed to give me a reasonable answer _why_ this is so. Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_%28pronoun%29 claims there is no known reason. However it's unusual in being a single-letter word so the suggestions of illegibility of single letter lowercase and accidental introduction are probably strong factors. Also remember that *lower* case is the more recent invention, While I agree with you that correct spelling is something worth taking care of in e-mail communication, I was always wondering about the completely randomized spelling rules in English language. Or rather the utter absence of any real rules. In other languages, those rules often actually make sense, and make the language easier to read and write. For example, the concept of spelling competitions in elementary schools was completely foreign to me until I heard about it from English schoolchildren. In most other languages, knowing how to properly spell words does not need any advanced knowledge, and basically is not considered to be a skill worth competing over. But English spelling is s contrived that people had to invent spell-checkers to deal with it. :-D And let's not even start with the even more contrived problem of the proper *pronunciation* of the written English. ;-) Actually, these two are coupled in a way that's not obvious to a non-native speaker (and many native speakers too). English spelling reflects pronunciation quite closely, what makes it difficult is that many graphemes are re-used. You can hear some of this in the difference between American and British accents where Webster's spellings seem to correspond to changes in pronunction (sometimes quite extreme, ax for ask). Remember most speakers learn the language before they learn the writing system, learning foreign languages is done backwards in a way. Also many other languages that haven't relentlessly revised their spelling rules also make use of graphemes. English has a lot of loan words of different origins which is a contributing factor. If you don't believe people compete over spelling in other languages you might want to have a look at Chinese. -- imalone http://ibmalone.blogspot.co.uk -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On 1 February 2013 00:27, Dan Thurman d...@cdkkt.com wrote: On 01/31/2013 07:55 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: Way way OT: Just out of interest, why do some people use the non-existent word i, poc Maybe Apple started it? ;) In that case anyone doing it probably owes royalties. The mailing list might need to institute a fine to pay them. -- imalone http://ibmalone.blogspot.co.uk -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On Thu, 2013-01-31 at 23:14 -0800, Joe Zeff wrote: On 01/31/2013 08:42 PM, Tim wrote: The misuse of loose and lose bugs me the most, second is probably dose instead of does. But seeing someone type in all-caps tends to be far more annoying that someone posting in all-lower-case. Let us not forget the people who can't be bothered to learn the difference between there, their and they're and simply use thier for all of them. Not to mention your and you're, its and it's and doubtless many others. I've got a little list. They never will be missed. Love it (though it's would, not will :-) poc -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On Thu, 2013-01-31 at 23:19 -0800, Joe Zeff wrote: On 01/31/2013 09:52 PM, Ed Greshko wrote: I know you could care less, but she sees your posts as being indirectly critical of her, her background, and her education. I would tell you what she said, but it doesn't translate well into English. Yes, I could care less. I suspect that what you meant is you couldn't care less. As it is, I regret hearing that your wife feels that way; please assure her that some of us, at least, were only writing about native English speakers who mangle their own language. +1 poc -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On Fri, 2013-02-01 at 09:53 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote: Am 01.02.2013 07:29, schrieb Ralf Corsepius: On 02/01/2013 01:44 AM, Reindl Harald wrote: Am 01.02.2013 01:35, schrieb Patrick O'Callaghan: Reading is not done letter by letter or word by word, but in larger units, and every time I see 'i' instead of 'I', it interrupts my train of comprehension well, that is your personal problem in fact here in german speaking countries there are way more words which are normally not written lowercase at all but nobody has a problem these days read sms, email and so on without a single uppercase letter Harald, you're in error. Many German speaking people consider style of writing you are using here, to be rude, disrespectful and childish - I am one of these fine that i work with people for which is content more important than style - the other way is childish for me wellthatstherestofusputinourplacethenisntit poc -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
Am 01.02.2013 14:37, schrieb Patrick O'Callaghan: On Fri, 2013-02-01 at 09:53 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote: Am 01.02.2013 07:29, schrieb Ralf Corsepius: On 02/01/2013 01:44 AM, Reindl Harald wrote: Am 01.02.2013 01:35, schrieb Patrick O'Callaghan: Reading is not done letter by letter or word by word, but in larger units, and every time I see 'i' instead of 'I', it interrupts my train of comprehension well, that is your personal problem in fact here in german speaking countries there are way more words which are normally not written lowercase at all but nobody has a problem these days read sms, email and so on without a single uppercase letter Harald, you're in error. Many German speaking people consider style of writing you are using here, to be rude, disrespectful and childish - I am one of these fine that i work with people for which is content more important than style - the other way is childish for me wellthatstherestofusputinourplacethenisntit this is as laughable as your thread at all if you do not realize the differene between writing 'i' instead of 'I' or write lowercase at all and strip out spaces between words i fear nobody can help you signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On Fri, 2013-02-01 at 11:16 +, g wrote: On 02/01/2013 05:38 AM, Ed Greshko wrote: This list is better off without the grammar, spelling, and style police. If you can't figure out what someone is saying then you should not feel obliged to read it or answer it. thank you. i could not agree with you more. there are way too many on this list that live such a life that they do not believe that their way is the only way to do things. You might want to re-parse that. poc -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On Fri, 2013-02-01 at 14:41 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote: Am 01.02.2013 14:37, schrieb Patrick O'Callaghan: On Fri, 2013-02-01 at 09:53 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote: Am 01.02.2013 07:29, schrieb Ralf Corsepius: On 02/01/2013 01:44 AM, Reindl Harald wrote: Am 01.02.2013 01:35, schrieb Patrick O'Callaghan: Reading is not done letter by letter or word by word, but in larger units, and every time I see 'i' instead of 'I', it interrupts my train of comprehension well, that is your personal problem in fact here in german speaking countries there are way more words which are normally not written lowercase at all but nobody has a problem these days read sms, email and so on without a single uppercase letter Harald, you're in error. Many German speaking people consider style of writing you are using here, to be rude, disrespectful and childish - I am one of these fine that i work with people for which is content more important than style - the other way is childish for me wellthatstherestofusputinourplacethenisntit this is as laughable as your thread at all if you do not realize the differene between writing 'i' instead of 'I' or write lowercase at all and strip out spaces between words i fear nobody can help you What's the problem? I merely used the conventions of ancient Greek and Roman writing (though strictly speaking I should have put it all in upper case), and you clearly understood it. Isn't the content more important than the style? poc -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On Fri, 1 Feb 2013, Reindl Harald wrote: Harald, you're in error. Many German speaking people consider style of writing you are using here, to be rude, disrespectful and childish - I am one of these fine that i work with people for which is content more important than style - the other way is childish for me Is that why you don't comment your code :-)? Style and content are like form and function. Ignoring one harms the other. billo -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
Am 01.02.2013 15:21, schrieb Bill Oliver: On Fri, 1 Feb 2013, Reindl Harald wrote: Harald, you're in error. Many German speaking people consider style of writing you are using here, to be rude, disrespectful and childish - I am one of these fine that i work with people for which is content more important than style - the other way is childish for me Is that why you don't comment your code :-)? 40-60 % of my code are comments and they are usually written before the code is implemented and the code as long debugged as it does what the comment says that is a completly different topic code-comments are for quality and documentation over the years - uppercase letters are the as useless as in written communication signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On Fri, 1 Feb 2013, Reindl Harald wrote: Am 01.02.2013 15:21, schrieb Bill Oliver: On Fri, 1 Feb 2013, Reindl Harald wrote: Harald, you're in error. Many German speaking people consider style of writing you are using here, to be rude, disrespectful and childish - I am one of these fine that i work with people for which is content more important than style - the other way is childish for me Is that why you don't comment your code :-)? 40-60 % of my code are comments and they are usually written before the code is implemented and the code as long debugged as it does what the comment says that is a completly different topic code-comments are for quality and documentation over the years - uppercase letters are the as useless as in written communication Ah, I see. Style is important when you think it's important, even if others don't want to bother with it. It's not important when you don't want to bother with it, even though others think it's important. Sort of like wearing plaid pants and purple sneakers to work. There's people who think that if someone has 60% of their code as comment, then they are just being chatty, not making their work clear. It's not a completely different topic. I might complain that You know, using // to denote a comment is *completely* arbitrary. I could just as easily use /. So I think I will, and screw all those compilers who think that they can force me to write in a way I don't want to. But it turns out that, if you want to talk to the compiler and not have it confused and have your work tossed out, you really have to use the convention. Because the *convention* serves a purpose, even if the actual rules are sometimes arbitrary. Talking to people is pretty much the same. I might think that wearing plaid pants and purple sneakers is just fine. And in some circumstances it might be. But when I go to court and stand in front of a jury, or when I go to the penthouse offices and talk to CEOs, or when I go to the Pentagon and talk to a four-star general (and I've done them all), plaid pants and purple sneakers just don't cut it. You are free to use i instead of I. You can jut out your chin and say how people who use conventional styles are rigid morons. But recognize that most of them will think you are a self-indulgent moron and, worse, an arrogant one who is more concerned with himself than with others. billo -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On 02/01/2013 01:43 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: On Fri, 2013-02-01 at 11:16 +, g wrote: there are way too many on this list that live such a life that they do not believe that their way is the only way to do things. You might want to re-parse that. most true. ;) } there are way too many on this list that live such a life that } they believe that their way is the only way to do things. poc thank you for noting. all i can say is that it was late and i wa up too many hours. -- peace out. tc.hago, g . in a free world without fences, who needs gates. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
I do hope you realize I was being sarcastic?I was trying to point out that some people's definition of cool was whatever and whomever was in the lime light at the momentsorry if you took it seriously.t'wasnt my intention On Jan 31, 2013 4:38 PM, Joe Zeff j...@zeff.us wrote: On 01/31/2013 12:20 PM, Eddie G. O'Connor Jr. wrote: To answerlook at society: Sarah Palin.Mit Romney...Lance ArmstrongKanye West.the Kardashians!LoL! Are they not the very pinnacle...nay the epitome of Cool?... As far as Sarah Palin goes, my impression was that people liked her because she wasn't ashamed of her opinions and she never pretended to be anything except what she was. Calling Mit Romney an ignoramus only shows that you didn't like his political opinions and think that that makes it OK to call him names. That tells me more about you than of him but I'm going to drop the subject RIGHT NOW because I don't consider it OK to do that and I prefer to live up to my principles. No, I don't consider anybody on that list the epitome of cool, because I remember when there were people like Kookie, who really were cool. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.**org/mailman/listinfo/usershttps://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/**Mailing_list_guidelineshttp://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On 02/01/2013 05:35 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: Love it (though it's would, not will :-) Yes. Of course. I should have realized that. However, I'm glad to see that at least one person on this list knew the reference. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On 02/01/2013 05:48 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: What's the problem? I merely used the conventions of ancient Greek and Roman writing (though strictly speaking I should have put it all in upper case), and you clearly understood it. Isn't the content more important than the style? If you really wanted to follow the conventions of ancient Greek, you would have had more than one line so that it could be done boustrophedon[1] style. [1]I'm astonished. Twice. Not only did my spelling checker recognize that word, I got it right! -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 6:21 PM, Joe Zeff j...@zeff.us wrote: On 02/01/2013 05:48 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: What's the problem? I merely used the conventions of ancient Greek and Roman writing (though strictly speaking I should have put it all in upper case), and you clearly understood it. Isn't the content more important than the style? If you really wanted to follow the conventions of ancient Greek, you would have had more than one line so that it could be done boustrophedon[1] style. As the ox ploughs IIRC (or plows if you prefer). I don't know if there are any examples of the Romans using that, and the Greeks only did it sometimes, probably to annoy people on mailing lists :-) poc -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On 02/01/2013 01:14 PM, Eddie O'Connor wrote: /snip/ As far as Sarah Palin goes, my impression was that people liked her because she wasn't ashamed of her opinions and she never pretended to be anything except what she was. Calling Mit Romney an ignoramus only shows that you didn't like his political opinions and think that that makes it OK to call him names. That tells me more about you than of him but I'm going to drop the subject RIGHT NOW because I don't consider it OK to do that and I prefer to live up to my principles. /snip/ I don't think people liked Sarah Palin. I think if McCain had picked someone that wasn't perceived as a bimbo, he would have won the election. As it was, not only were the people afraid of him dying and leaving her in charge, but it also reflected on his judgment. Just my 2¢ --doug -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On 02/01/2013 10:14 AM, Eddie O'Connor wrote: I do hope you realize I was being sarcastic?I was trying to point out that some people's definition of cool was whatever and whomever was in the lime light at the momentsorry if you took it seriously.t'wasnt my intention It's often hard to judge a person's tone of typer, but it's not really important. You gave a list of examples and I gave you my own opinion of them. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On 02/01/2013 11:13 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: As the ox ploughs IIRC (or plows if you prefer). I don't know if there are any examples of the Romans using that, and the Greeks only did it sometimes, probably to annoy people on mailing lists :-) Very good! And yes, AFAIK the Romans didn't copy that. Please understand, BTW, that I don't do things like that simply to see if anybody understands it. I do it because I assume that a fair number of you will recognize what I'm saying and won't have to ask. Wandering even farther off-topic for a moment, I often have a problem when talking to younger people: I like to make pop culture references, and tend to forget that what I'm referring to was way before anybody else in the conversation was born. As an example, does anybody reading this know what I mean by an identical cousin? -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On 02/01/2013 11:18 AM, Doug wrote: I don't think people liked Sarah Palin. I think if McCain had picked someone that wasn't perceived as a bimbo, he would have won the election. As it was, not only were the people afraid of him dying and leaving her in charge, but it also reflected on his judgment. You might be right; in fact, if you substitute Democrats for people, you probably are, but that's just a matter of partisan politics. There were people who liked her enough to get her elected as Governor of Alaska, and my impression was that she had a small following nation-wide. I was writing about what those people liked about her, not why (or if) she was liked by a large percentage of the populace. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 8:26 PM, Joe Zeff j...@zeff.us wrote: As an example, does anybody reading this know what I mean by an identical cousin? Not I, but then I'm only 63. poc -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On 02/01/2013 01:05 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 8:26 PM, Joe Zeff j...@zeff.us mailto:j...@zeff.us wrote: As an example, does anybody reading this know what I mean by an identical cousin? Not I, but then I'm only 63. poc So am I. Follow this link and try not to kick yourself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patty_Duke_Show -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On Fri, 2013-02-01 at 13:19 -0800, Joe Zeff wrote: On 02/01/2013 01:05 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 8:26 PM, Joe Zeff j...@zeff.us mailto:j...@zeff.us wrote: As an example, does anybody reading this know what I mean by an identical cousin? Not I, but then I'm only 63. poc So am I. Follow this link and try not to kick yourself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patty_Duke_Show I see you are prey to the misconception that I am familiar with the history of US sitcoms. While I've seen several of them, not being American myself I can't say I know this one. That and knowing virtually nothing about basketball, baseball and American football, can make the NY Times crossword puzzle more difficult than strictly necessary. I can remember two common answers, ORR and OTT, but can never distinguish between them. poc -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
I do!LoL! On Feb 1, 2013 3:26 PM, Joe Zeff j...@zeff.us wrote: On 02/01/2013 11:13 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: As the ox ploughs IIRC (or plows if you prefer). I don't know if there are any examples of the Romans using that, and the Greeks only did it sometimes, probably to annoy people on mailing lists :-) Very good! And yes, AFAIK the Romans didn't copy that. Please understand, BTW, that I don't do things like that simply to see if anybody understands it. I do it because I assume that a fair number of you will recognize what I'm saying and won't have to ask. Wandering even farther off-topic for a moment, I often have a problem when talking to younger people: I like to make pop culture references, and tend to forget that what I'm referring to was way before anybody else in the conversation was born. As an example, does anybody reading this know what I mean by an identical cousin? -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.**org/mailman/listinfo/usershttps://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/**Mailing_list_guidelineshttp://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On 02/01/2013 01:32 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: I see you are prey to the misconception that I am familiar with the history of US sitcoms. While I've seen several of them, not being American myself I can't say I know this one. I wasn't aware that you aren't an American, and I don't know how much foreign exposure the show had. Still, you can see why it's highly unlikely that anybody of what you and I would call the younger generation would have any more of an idea what I was talking about than you did. And, on a more international note, if somebody just mentions the war, which war do you think of first? I think that for most people it depends on their age because they'll think of either the first one in their lifetime or the first one they learned about when they were young. I'm a 'Nam vet, but to me, the first war I'll always think of is going to be WW II because its after effects were still big when I was a child. Yes, there was Korea when I was small, but it didn't have any impact on me, especially when compared to WW II. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 9:45 PM, Joe Zeff j...@zeff.us wrote: And, on a more international note, if somebody just mentions the war, which war do you think of first? I think that for most people it depends on their age because they'll think of either the first one in their lifetime or the first one they learned about when they were young. I'm a 'Nam vet, but to me, the first war I'll always think of is going to be WW II because its after effects were still big when I was a child. Yes, there was Korea when I was small, but it didn't have any impact on me, especially when compared to WW II. I think it's also a cultural thing. In the UK, despite a number of more recent conflicts which were certainly wars and are even called as such (the Falklands war for example), *the* war means WWII. poc -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
And, on a more international note, if somebody just mentions the war, which war do you think of first? War on Drugs! War between the States!(Civil War) War of 1812! Spanish American War(1898--??) War (WWI, WW2), Korea(which was not a war BTW), VietNam(also not a war), Iraq(1990, ...), Afghanistan, ..., etc There are many ``wars'', the war on Open Source, the ``war against Gnome 3'', the ``war against Unity'', the war against the U.S. Constitution. The war of ``Good'' vs ``Bad'' or ``Evil''. There are many wars. and some to come to, North Korea, Israel, Pakistan, Syria, Turkey, Iran, ... it never finishes :( I wish we could all be little kids and like each other regardless of ethnicity, country, and play and get along well not to repeat the mistakes that have been made throughout history, but life is sadly not like that :( Some students tell others that there is no i in TEAM, but there is in TIM if its misspelled to suit their needs. And as has been mentioned, it is[(it's) vs its], [your vs you're, which corresponds to you are] plus others metioned by Marko V. The dotless i, the o with the dots ö, there are many things that change depending on the area one is in. Pena is not the same as Peña, and Trevino is not the same as Treviño, and ... Best Regards, Antonio FREE 3D EARTH SCREENSAVER - Watch the Earth right on your desktop! Check it out at http://www.inbox.com/earth -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
Joe Zeff joe at zeff.us writes: As an example, does anybody reading this know what I mean by an identical cousin? Yes and now I have the d**n jingle from the show going through my head but they're cousins, identical cousins... AAGGH! Cheers, Dave -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On 02/01/2013 03:32 PM, David G. Miller wrote: Yes and now I have the d**n jingle from the show going through my head but they're cousins, identical cousins... Just to make it even more fun, the Wikpedia article mentions that there was a third one: a distant cousin from Georgia that showed up in one episode in the second season. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On Fri, 2013-02-01 at 00:35 +, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: On Thu, 2013-01-31 at 13:44 -0700, Craig White wrote: On Thu, 2013-01-31 at 15:07 -0500, Robert Moskowitz wrote: On 01/31/2013 12:52 PM, Frank Murphy wrote: On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 15:55:08 + Patrick O'Callaghan pocallag...@gmail.com wrote: Way way OT: Just out of interest, why do some people use the non-existent word i, not to mention other violations of capitalization rules when 1) their Shift key is clearly not broken, Could be various reasons. It's a multi-cultural list. English as 2nd or 3rd language. users may not have a western-style keyboard. Maybe dyslexic (in rare case spell-check could complicate matters) I **AM** dyslexic and live and die by my speel ckecher. my oldest brother is probably the smartest person I know - and he was dyslexic too. He is also a graduate chemical engineer, former union organizer, economics professor (masters degree) and it's obvious that while spelling and grammar checkers are a must for people with these problems, the truth is that it's about effective communication and I don't have much patience for those who want to insist on rules of communication rather than just appreciate the communication. If it were either/or, I would agree with you, but that's a straw man and a false dichotomy. With the exception of dyslexics (who AFAIK tend to be of above-average intelligence), it's not a question of either you communicate effectively or you follow grammar rules. Grammar rules exist in order to make communication more effective by reducing the amount of cognitive dissonance. Reading is not done letter by letter or word by word, but in larger units, and every time I see 'i' instead of 'I', it interrupts my train of comprehension, even for a a few milliseconds. What's good about that? It's clear that you want this e-mail list, informal as it is to respect your sense of proper grammar. It won't and your diatribes won't change that but might scare people away. My wife (Chinese - been here 2 1/2 years) speaks better English than many Americans. Some people are lazy, sloppy and probably know better but just don't care. Some people are dyslexic. Some are merely adopting fast/informal methods of other communication methods. Some just simply struggle with English. There's no straw man argument... but - if it makes you happy, we can just declare the Patrick O'Callaghan rule by getting it added to the Fedora Users Mailing List Guidelines so you have a fully loaded weapon to attack with. Sheesh Reminds me of a book that I bought that looked interesting... Eats Shoots Leaves by Lynn Truss. It was about the need for things like punctuation to clarify the intent of something. In the end, the author includes a number of self adhesive commas, apostrophes, periods, semi-colons and colons so one can fix the world's signage guerrilla style. Yes, it's that absurd. It doesn't matter. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On Fri, 2013-02-01 at 05:58 +, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: This list is better off without the grammar, spelling, and style police. If you can't figure out what someone is saying then you should not feel obliged to read it or answer it. You seem to be taking this way too seriously. no - the list doesn't need grammar, spelling and style police. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On 02/01/2013 04:52 PM, Craig White wrote: It's clear that you want this e-mail list, informal as it is to respect your sense of proper grammar. No, it's not his sense of proper grammar, it's proper grammar as it's been taught in schools in every English speaking country for over a century now. As I see it, there are three reasons people's grammar on this list falls short. This is an international list and not all of the members have English as their first (or even second) language. My attitude is that they're doing the best they can and as long as I can work out what they originally meant, that's all that matters. Second, there are native English speakers who either were never taught properly in school (I have a friend who has trouble with homonyms, using flue for flew and other such errors because of problems when she was young.) And, of course, there are the people who were exposed to proper grammar, syntax and word usage but simply don't care. On some mailing lists, people in both of the latter two groups would be flamed for their errors. On this one, I keep my opinions to myself because I can't see any way it could possibly help and many ways it could end up making trouble for everybody. Now, of course, we're in a long, OT discussion of the issue and I think that if nothing else, it's let all of us who don't like bad grammar to air our opinions instead of bottling them up as we'd normally do. No, I don't expect this to result in any change, but who knows; somebody might decide to be more careful because they'd never realized how it looks to others. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On 02/01/2013 07:52 PM, Craig White wrote: /snip/ Reminds me of a book that I bought that looked interesting... Eats Shoots Leaves by Lynn Truss. It was about the need for things like punctuation to clarify the intent of something. In the end, the author includes a number of self adhesive commas, apostrophes, periods, semi-colons and colons so one can fix the world's signage guerrilla style. Yes, it's that absurd. It doesn't matter. I edit a small newsletter with about 1000 subscribers, and we get input from a variety of sources. For some of them, I have promised to ship a barrel of commas, to be used liberally! --doug -- Blessed are the peacemakers...for they shall be shot at from both sides. --A. M. Greeley -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On Fri, 2013-02-01 at 17:16 -0800, Joe Zeff wrote: On 02/01/2013 04:52 PM, Craig White wrote: It's clear that you want this e-mail list, informal as it is to respect your sense of proper grammar. No, it's not his sense of proper grammar, it's proper grammar as it's been taught in schools in every English speaking country for over a century now. but we're not in school here. There's no grades. The few who feel lowered by having to trudge through all the e-mails with bad grammar can find other lists where good grammar is actually a useful endeavor. As I see it, there are three reasons people's grammar on this list falls short. This is an international list and not all of the members have English as their first (or even second) language. My attitude is that they're doing the best they can and as long as I can work out what they originally meant, that's all that matters. Second, there are native English speakers who either were never taught properly in school (I have a friend who has trouble with homonyms, using flue for flew and other such errors because of problems when she was young.) And, of course, there are the people who were exposed to proper grammar, syntax and word usage but simply don't care. On some mailing lists, people in both of the latter two groups would be flamed for their errors. On this one, I keep my opinions to myself because I can't see any way it could possibly help and many ways it could end up making trouble for everybody. As you see it? Who cares? I am not interested in hearing your personal ambitions, your political beliefs or discussing your morals. Has absolutely nothing to do with Fedora. People intent on shaming others to comply with their phobias pertaining to grammar, style and spelling errors should find another outlet to satisfy their OCD needs. Now, of course, we're in a long, OT discussion of the issue and I think that if nothing else, it's let all of us who don't like bad grammar to air our opinions instead of bottling them up as we'd normally do. No, I don't expect this to result in any change, but who knows; somebody might decide to be more careful because they'd never realized how it looks to others. well let me give you a clue on how it looks to at least one person... overwrought, overbearing, pointless and self-indulgent. The judgmental, snobbish, elitist opinions are clearly going to cause more people not to post than they will encourage. Probably in another form, another time and space (and medium), you and Patrick and I might become best of friends but I gotta tell you, get over yourself and your opinions and focus on something that actually matters. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
OT: what's with the 'i'?
Way way OT: Just out of interest, why do some people use the non-existent word i, not to mention other violations of capitalization rules when 1) their Shift key is clearly not broken, and 2) they aren't the poet e.e. cummings? I've seen a number of people do this (admittedly a tiny minority) and never understood it. Do they think it's cool? Are they expressing their inner rebel? Were they punished by their English teacher at school? Is hitting Shift too much effort? Enquiring minds want to know. Sorry, this has been bugging me for ages and I had just had to get this off my chest. Feel free to ignore. poc -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
2013/1/31, Patrick O'Callaghan pocallag...@gmail.com: Way way OT: Just out of interest, why do some people use the non-existent word i, not to mention other violations of capitalization rules when 1) their Shift key is clearly not broken, and 2) they aren't the poet e.e. cummings? I've seen a number of people do this (admittedly a tiny minority) and never understood it. Do they think it's cool? Are they expressing their inner rebel? Were they punished by their English teacher at school? Is hitting Shift too much effort? Enquiring minds want to know. I'd think it's the coolness thing. But highly intelligent people do it occasionally, so I have no clue either. One such person I know of was Erik Naggum, though I can't find an example here http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Erik_Naggum. But Usenet is full of them. A funny one: you have been evaluated. you have a negative reference count. prepare to be garbage collected. persistence is futile. http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3150641 439642...@naggum.no.html Andras -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On 01/31/2013 10:55 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: Way way OT: Just out of interest, why do some people use the non-existent word i, not to mention other violations of capitalization rules when 1) their Shift key is clearly not broken, and 2) they aren't the poet e.e. cummings? I've seen a number of people do this (admittedly a tiny minority) and never understood it. Do they think it's cool? Are they expressing their inner rebel? Were they punished by their English teacher at school? Is hitting Shift too much effort? Enquiring minds want to know. Sorry, this has been bugging me for ages and I had just had to get this off my chest. Feel free to ignore. The expect their grammer checker to automagically fix this for them. Their smartphones SMS messaging does this, so why not their email client? Some people did not learn on a Royal Typewriter to get exposed to proper typing techniques. I BARELY made it to 40wpm to pass that class back in '64! And I hated reading e.e cummings back then. Robert Frost was more my speed. I have miles to go before I sleep. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On Thu, 2013-01-31 at 17:34 +0100, Andras Simon wrote: Just out of interest, why do some people use the non-existent word i, not to mention other violations of capitalization rules when 1) their Shift key is clearly not broken, and 2) they aren't the poet e.e. cummings? I've seen a number of people do this (admittedly a tiny minority) and never understood it. Do they think it's cool? Are they expressing their inner rebel? Were they punished by their English teacher at school? Is hitting Shift too much effort? Enquiring minds want to know. I'd think it's the coolness thing. But highly intelligent people do it occasionally, so I have no clue either. Yes, some of the Bell Labs people including none other than Ken Thompson were known for doing this, but ken gets a pass for obvious reasons :-) poc -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 15:55:08 + Patrick O'Callaghan pocallag...@gmail.com wrote: Way way OT: Just out of interest, why do some people use the non-existent word i, not to mention other violations of capitalization rules when 1) their Shift key is clearly not broken, Could be various reasons. It's a multi-cultural list. English as 2nd or 3rd language. users may not have a western-style keyboard. Maybe dyslexic (in rare case spell-check could complicate matters) Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD) Eyesight not corrected to 20/20. or just don't give a fiddlers. -- Regards, Frank http//www.frankly3d.com -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
Quoting Robert Moskowitz r...@htt-consult.com: On 01/31/2013 10:55 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: Way way OT: Just out of interest, why do some people use the non-existent word i, not to mention other violations of capitalization rules when 1) their Shift key is clearly not broken, and 2) they aren't the poet e.e. cummings? I've seen a number of people do this (admittedly a tiny minority) and never understood it. Do they think it's cool? Are they expressing their inner rebel? Were they punished by their English teacher at school? Is hitting Shift too much effort? Enquiring minds want to know. Well, what about using a microscopic keyboard image on an iThing while in the subway? Could that have anything to do with it? Sorry, this has been bugging me for ages and I had just had to get this off my chest. Feel free to ignore. The expect their grammer checker to automagically fix this for them. Their smartphones SMS messaging does this, so why not their email client? Some people did not learn on a Royal Typewriter to get exposed to proper typing techniques. I BARELY made it to 40wpm to pass that class back in '64! And I hated reading e.e cummings back then. Robert Frost was more my speed. I have miles to go before I sleep. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org -- If all the advertising in the world were to shut down tomorrow, would people still go on buying more soap, eating more apples, giving their children more vitamins, roughage, milk, olive oil, scooters and laxatives, learning more languages by iPod, hearing more virtuosos by radio, re-decorating their houses, refreshing themselves with more non-alcoholic thirst-quenchers, cooking more new, appetizing dishes, affording themselves that little extra touch which means so much? Or would the whole desperate whirligig slow down, and the exhausted public relapse upon plain grub and elbow-grease? --- Dorothy L Sayers, in Murder Must Advertise -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On 01/31/2013 12:17 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: On Thu, 2013-01-31 at 17:34 +0100, Andras Simon wrote: Just out of interest, why do some people use the non-existent word i, not to mention other violations of capitalization rules when 1) their Shift key is clearly not broken, and 2) they aren't the poet e.e. cummings? I've seen a number of people do this (admittedly a tiny minority) and never understood it. Do they think it's cool? Are they expressing their inner rebel? Were they punished by their English teacher at school? Is hitting Shift too much effort? Enquiring minds want to know. I'd think it's the coolness thing. But highly intelligent people do it occasionally, so I have no clue either. Yes, some of the Bell Labs people including none other than Ken Thompson were known for doing this, but ken gets a pass for obvious reasons :-) poc I believe I have read that English is the only language that capitalizes the first person. German capitalizes the second person formal, both singular and plural. (Sie.) I think Dutch also capitalizes the second person (U.) --doug -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 05:17:15PM +, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: I'd think it's the coolness thing. But highly intelligent people do it occasionally, so I have no clue either. Yes, some of the Bell Labs people including none other than Ken Thompson were known for doing this, but ken gets a pass for obvious reasons :-) Back in the anything-goes days when e-mail was young, there was considerable experimentation with neglecting the conventional rules of punctuation in the new medium. Everyone you might converse with was part of a relatively small tech-savvy group, and everyone was part of building something new and exciting. (Please pause for a second here to imagine something cyberpunk, in its early-80s form.) As the Internet grew, things changed. After the Eternal September, there was a new supply of people who weren't trying a new medium so much as they were actually unable to form coherent sentences in the first place, making doing so as an affectation considerably less cool. (Now image the movie Hackers.) But also, the scope of activity depending on e-mail grew -- including, very serious business. With that, it turns out that the old-fashioned techniques of communicating coherently weren't so bad after all. On the other hand, some of the new conventions did stick, like using an extra blank line as a paragraph marker rather than indenting the first line. Also, smilies. And now back to our regularly scheduled Fedora list? -- Matthew Miller ☁☁☁ Fedora Cloud Architect ☁☁☁ mat...@fedoraproject.org -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On 01/31/2013 07:55 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: they aren't the poet e.e. cummings? Either they're ignorant of proper English usage, they don't care or they think they're archie the cockroach. I'll ask again: where is Professor Henry Higgins when we need him? -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On 01/31/2013 08:34 AM, Andras Simon wrote: I'd think it's the coolness thing. What's cool about looking like an ignoramus? -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On 01/31/2013 04:55 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: Way way OT: Just out of interest, why do some people use the non-existent word i, not to mention other violations of capitalization rules when 1) their Shift key is clearly not broken, and 2) they aren't the poet e.e. cummings? I've seen a number of people do this (admittedly a tiny minority) and never understood it. Do they think it's cool? Are they expressing their inner rebel? Were they punished by their English teacher at school? Is hitting Shift too much effort? At least in Germany, often your last sentence applies. In German, nouns are written with a capital letter at the beginning. This means, sentences usually contain many capital letters. When asking people about it, the usual answer is too much effort. It's worse on phones and tablets, were switching between upper and lower case can mean some finger acrobatics. Ralf -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On 01/31/2013 12:52 PM, Frank Murphy wrote: On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 15:55:08 + Patrick O'Callaghan pocallag...@gmail.com wrote: Way way OT: Just out of interest, why do some people use the non-existent word i, not to mention other violations of capitalization rules when 1) their Shift key is clearly not broken, Could be various reasons. It's a multi-cultural list. English as 2nd or 3rd language. users may not have a western-style keyboard. Maybe dyslexic (in rare case spell-check could complicate matters) I **AM** dyslexic and live and die by my speel ckecher. Oops. Really, without 4th grade remedial speach and reading (back in '59) I don't know where I would be today. Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD) I am that too. Eyesight not corrected to 20/20. or just don't give a fiddlers. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 11:16:28AM -0800, Joe Zeff wrote: I'd think it's the coolness thing. What's cool about looking like an ignoramus? Well, traditionally, actually, it's pretty high up there in the defining factors. -- Matthew Miller ☁☁☁ Fedora Cloud Architect ☁☁☁ mat...@fedoraproject.org -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On 01/31/2013 02:16 PM, Joe Zeff wrote: On 01/31/2013 08:34 AM, Andras Simon wrote: I'd think it's the coolness thing. What's cool about looking like an ignoramus? To answerlook at society: Sarah Palin.Mit Romney...Lance ArmstrongKanye West.the Kardashians!LoL! Are they not the very pinnacle...nay the epitome of Cool?... EGO II -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On Thu, 2013-01-31 at 15:55 +, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: Way way OT: Just out of interest, why do some people use the non-existent word i, not to mention other violations of capitalization rules when 1) their Shift key is clearly not broken, and 2) they aren't the poet e.e. cummings? I've seen a number of people do this (admittedly a tiny minority) and never understood it. Do they think it's cool? Are they expressing their inner rebel? Were they punished by their English teacher at school? Is hitting Shift too much effort? Enquiring minds want to know. Sorry, this has been bugging me for ages and I had just had to get this off my chest. Feel free to ignore. better get used to it and other language simplifications encouraged by SMS/tweeting/etc. It's only going to increase. There's younger generations that simply aren't likely to feel bound your rules. Grammar snobbery is just going to turn you into an unhappy PITA. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On Thu, 2013-01-31 at 15:07 -0500, Robert Moskowitz wrote: On 01/31/2013 12:52 PM, Frank Murphy wrote: On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 15:55:08 + Patrick O'Callaghan pocallag...@gmail.com wrote: Way way OT: Just out of interest, why do some people use the non-existent word i, not to mention other violations of capitalization rules when 1) their Shift key is clearly not broken, Could be various reasons. It's a multi-cultural list. English as 2nd or 3rd language. users may not have a western-style keyboard. Maybe dyslexic (in rare case spell-check could complicate matters) I **AM** dyslexic and live and die by my speel ckecher. my oldest brother is probably the smartest person I know - and he was dyslexic too. He is also a graduate chemical engineer, former union organizer, economics professor (masters degree) and it's obvious that while spelling and grammar checkers are a must for people with these problems, the truth is that it's about effective communication and I don't have much patience for those who want to insist on rules of communication rather than just appreciate the communication. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On 01/31/2013 12:07 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote: I **AM** dyslexic and live and die by my speel ckecher. Oops. Really, without 4th grade remedial speach and reading (back in '59) I don't know where I would be today. I'm not dyslexic, but my 4th grade teacher (in '59, IIRC) had a method of teaching spelling that ensured that if you ever fell behind you'd never catch up. (By the end of the term, the best students were learning 35 new works a week; the worst, 5.) I wasn't among the worst, but fell behind enough that the only thing that's taught me spelling is having the same words corrected over and over, and even then there are some I can't remember. At least you and I use our spelling checkers and pay attention to them. Those who can't spell and won't use them have no excuse IMAO. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On 01/31/2013 03:38 PM, Craig White wrote: On Thu, 2013-01-31 at 15:55 +, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: Way way OT: Just out of interest, why do some people use the non-existent word i, not to mention other violations of capitalization rules when 1) their Shift key is clearly not broken, and 2) they aren't the poet e.e. cummings? I've seen a number of people do this (admittedly a tiny minority) and never understood it. Do they think it's cool? Are they expressing their inner rebel? Were they punished by their English teacher at school? Is hitting Shift too much effort? Enquiring minds want to know. Sorry, this has been bugging me for ages and I had just had to get this off my chest. Feel free to ignore. better get used to it and other language simplifications encouraged by SMS/tweeting/etc. It's only going to increase. There's younger generations that simply aren't likely to feel bound your rules. Grammar snobbery is just going to turn you into an unhappy PITA. My copy of this is back in the mid-90s: Vy Knot? Having chosen English as the preferred language in the EEC, the European Parliament has commissioned a feasibility study in ways of improving efficiency in communications between Government departments. European officials have often pointed out that English spelling is unnecessarily difficult; for example: cough, plough, rough, through and thorough. What is clearly needed is a phased programme of changes to iron out these anomalies. The programme would, of course, be administered by a committee staff at top level by participating nations. In the first year, for example, the committee would suggest using 's' instead of the soft 'c'. Sertainly, sivil servants in all sities would resieve this news with joy. Then the hard 'c' could be replaced by 'k' sinse both letters are pronounsed alike. Not only would this klear up konfusion in the minds of klerikal workers, but typewriters kould be made with one less letter. There would be growing enthusiasm when in the sekond year, it was announsed that the troublesome 'ph' would henseforth be written 'f'. This would make words like 'fotograf' twenty persent shorter in print. In the third year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to reash the stage where more komplikated shanges are possible. Governments would enkourage the removal of double leters whish have always been a deterent to akurate speling. We would al agre that the horible mes of silent 'e's in the languag is disgrasful. Therefor we kould drop them and kontinu to read and writ as though nothing had hapend. By this tim it would be four years sins the skem began and peopl would be reseptiv to steps sutsh as replasing 'th' by 'z'. Perhaps zen ze funktion of 'w' kould be taken on by 'v', vitsh is, after al, half a 'w'. Shortly after zis, ze unesesary 'o' kould be dropd from vords kontaining 'ou'. Similar arguments vud of kors be aplid to ozer kombinations of leters. Kontinuing zis proses yer after yer, ve vud eventuli hav a reli sensibl riten styl. After tventi yers zer vud be no mor trubls, difikultis and evrivun vud find it ezi tu understand ech ozer. Ze drems of the Guvermnt vud finali hav kum tru. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On 1/31/2013 1:07 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote: My copy of this is back in the mid-90s: Vy Knot? Having chosen English as the preferred language in the EEC, the European Parliament has commissioned a feasibility study in ways of improving efficiency in communications between Government departments. European officials have often pointed out that English spelling is unnecessarily difficult; for example: cough, plough, rough, through and thorough. What is clearly needed is a phased programme of changes to iron out these anomalies. The programme would, of course, be administered by a committee staff at top level by participating nations. In the first year, for example, the committee would suggest using 's' instead of the soft 'c'. Sertainly, sivil servants in all sities would resieve this news with joy. Then the hard 'c' could be replaced by 'k' sinse both letters are pronounsed alike. Not only would this klear up konfusion in the minds of klerikal workers, but typewriters kould be made with one less letter. There would be growing enthusiasm when in the sekond year, it was announsed that the troublesome 'ph' would henseforth be written 'f'. This would make words like 'fotograf' twenty persent shorter in print. In the third year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to reash the stage where more komplikated shanges are possible. Governments would enkourage the removal of double leters whish have always been a deterent to akurate speling. We would al agre that the horible mes of silent 'e's in the languag is disgrasful. Therefor we kould drop them and kontinu to read and writ as though nothing had hapend. By this tim it would be four years sins the skem began and peopl would be reseptiv to steps sutsh as replasing 'th' by 'z'. Perhaps zen ze funktion of 'w' kould be taken on by 'v', vitsh is, after al, half a 'w'. Shortly after zis, ze unesesary 'o' kould be dropd from vords kontaining 'ou'. Similar arguments vud of kors be aplid to ozer kombinations of leters. Kontinuing zis proses yer after yer, ve vud eventuli hav a reli sensibl riten styl. After tventi yers zer vud be no mor trubls, difikultis and evrivun vud find it ezi tu understand ech ozer. Ze drems of the Guvermnt vud finali hav kum tru. Thank you ... I really enjoyed reading it (and was easily able to read the whole article ... while my Thunderbird spell-check starting choking on the third paragraph) Paul -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On 01/31/2013 12:20 PM, Eddie G. O'Connor Jr. wrote: To answerlook at society: Sarah Palin.Mit Romney...Lance ArmstrongKanye West.the Kardashians!LoL! Are they not the very pinnacle...nay the epitome of Cool?... As far as Sarah Palin goes, my impression was that people liked her because she wasn't ashamed of her opinions and she never pretended to be anything except what she was. Calling Mit Romney an ignoramus only shows that you didn't like his political opinions and think that that makes it OK to call him names. That tells me more about you than of him but I'm going to drop the subject RIGHT NOW because I don't consider it OK to do that and I prefer to live up to my principles. No, I don't consider anybody on that list the epitome of cool, because I remember when there were people like Kookie, who really were cool. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
Joe Zeff joe at zeff.us writes: On 01/31/2013 08:34 AM, Andras Simon wrote: I'd think it's the coolness thing. What's cool about looking like an ignoramus? I just go with these are the same people who aren't intelligent enough to operate a baseball cap so they end up wearing it backwards. (Not original. Don't recall who the comedian was that used this in a monologue). Cheers, Dave -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 15:55:08 + Patrick O'Callaghan pocallag...@gmail.com wrote: Just out of interest, why do some people use the non-existent word i, not to mention other violations of capitalization rules when 1) their Shift key is clearly not broken, and 2) they aren't the poet e.e. cummings? I've seen a number of people do this (admittedly a tiny minority) and never understood it. Do they think it's cool? Are they expressing their inner rebel? Were they punished by their English teacher at school? Is hitting Shift too much effort? Enquiring minds want to know. Speaking of that, I never understood why is the I capitalized in English? Or, to rephrase it in your words, what's with the I? ;-) To begin with, I don't know of any other language which capitalizes this word. Also, while my English teachers were always very explicit that the I should always be capitalized, none of them has ever managed to give me a reasonable answer _why_ this is so. While I agree with you that correct spelling is something worth taking care of in e-mail communication, I was always wondering about the completely randomized spelling rules in English language. Or rather the utter absence of any real rules. In other languages, those rules often actually make sense, and make the language easier to read and write. For example, the concept of spelling competitions in elementary schools was completely foreign to me until I heard about it from English schoolchildren. In most other languages, knowing how to properly spell words does not need any advanced knowledge, and basically is not considered to be a skill worth competing over. But English spelling is s contrived that people had to invent spell-checkers to deal with it. :-D And let's not even start with the even more contrived problem of the proper *pronunciation* of the written English. ;-) Best, :-) Marko -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On Thu, 2013-01-31 at 23:27 +, David G.Miller wrote: Joe Zeff joe at zeff.us writes: On 01/31/2013 08:34 AM, Andras Simon wrote: I'd think it's the coolness thing. What's cool about looking like an ignoramus? I just go with these are the same people who aren't intelligent enough to operate a baseball cap so they end up wearing it backwards. anyone who rides a motorcycle needs no explanation of why wearing a baseball cap backwards is a good thing. The endless meta chatter on this topic is rather pointless. If the point of the OP was to make non-native English speakers uncomfortable so they won't post for fear of being attacked, then we really don't need to support that effort. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
The reason I was taught was the transition from the Old English equivalent ich. When the word dropped from three letters to one letter, it was capitalized to point out that it was a separate word rather than a typographical error. This doesn't make a lot of sense in modern typography, but I can see where that might be the case in hand-written scripts, sort of like the ampersand. Here's a reference that says the same thing: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/03/magazine/03wwln-guestsafire-t.html?_r=0 billo On Fri, 1 Feb 2013, Marko Vojinovic wrote: On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 15:55:08 + Patrick O'Callaghan pocallag...@gmail.com wrote: Just out of interest, why do some people use the non-existent word i, not to mention other violations of capitalization rules when 1) their Shift key is clearly not broken, and 2) they aren't the poet e.e. cummings? I've seen a number of people do this (admittedly a tiny minority) and never understood it. Do they think it's cool? Are they expressing their inner rebel? Were they punished by their English teacher at school? Is hitting Shift too much effort? Enquiring minds want to know. Speaking of that, I never understood why is the I capitalized in English? Or, to rephrase it in your words, what's with the I? ;-) To begin with, I don't know of any other language which capitalizes this word. Also, while my English teachers were always very explicit that the I should always be capitalized, none of them has ever managed to give me a reasonable answer _why_ this is so. While I agree with you that correct spelling is something worth taking care of in e-mail communication, I was always wondering about the completely randomized spelling rules in English language. Or rather the utter absence of any real rules. In other languages, those rules often actually make sense, and make the language easier to read and write. For example, the concept of spelling competitions in elementary schools was completely foreign to me until I heard about it from English schoolchildren. In most other languages, knowing how to properly spell words does not need any advanced knowledge, and basically is not considered to be a skill worth competing over. But English spelling is s contrived that people had to invent spell-checkers to deal with it. :-D And let's not even start with the even more contrived problem of the proper *pronunciation* of the written English. ;-) Best, :-) Marko -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On 01/31/2013 10:55 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: Way way OT: Just out of interest, why do some people use the non-existent word i, not to mention other violations of capitalization rules when 1) their Shift key is clearly not broken, and 2) they aren't the poet e.e. cummings? I've seen a number of people do this (admittedly a tiny minority) and never understood it. Do they think it's cool? Are they expressing their inner rebel? Were they punished by their English teacher at school? Is hitting Shift too much effort? Enquiring minds want to know. Sorry, this has been bugging me for ages and I had just had to get this off my chest. Feel free to ignore. poc Another irritating colloquial figure of speech is the use of the word and in place of the word to in association with the word try. Example, I will try and work that out. Is the speaker going to try that out, or is the speaker going to work that out, or is the speaker planning on both? What I assume is the speaker meant that the speaker will try to work that out. -- _ °v° /(_)\ ^ ^ Mark LaPierre Registered Linux user No #267004 https://linuxcounter.net/ -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On 01/31/2013 07:55 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: Way way OT: Just out of interest, why do some people use the non-existent word i, not to mention other violations of capitalization rules when 1) their Shift key is clearly not broken, and 2) they aren't the poet e.e. cummings? I've seen a number of people do this (admittedly a tiny minority) and never understood it. Do they think it's cool? Are they expressing their inner rebel? Were they punished by their English teacher at school? Is hitting Shift too much effort? Enquiring minds want to know. Sorry, this has been bugging me for ages and I had just had to get this off my chest. Feel free to ignore. poc Maybe Apple started it? ;) -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On Thu, 2013-01-31 at 16:44 -0700, Craig White wrote: On Thu, 2013-01-31 at 23:27 +, David G.Miller wrote: Joe Zeff joe at zeff.us writes: On 01/31/2013 08:34 AM, Andras Simon wrote: I'd think it's the coolness thing. What's cool about looking like an ignoramus? I just go with these are the same people who aren't intelligent enough to operate a baseball cap so they end up wearing it backwards. anyone who rides a motorcycle needs no explanation of why wearing a baseball cap backwards is a good thing. The endless meta chatter on this topic is rather pointless. As far as I'm aware, this is the only time the subject has come up in all the years I've been on this list. And I clearly flagged it as OT, so don't feel you need to read it. If the point of the OP was to make non-native English speakers uncomfortable so they won't post for fear of being attacked, then we really don't need to support that effort. Well, since the predicate doesn't apply, we can safely ignore the conclusion. And several of the most visible proponents do not appear to be non-native English speakers. poc -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On Thu, 2013-01-31 at 13:44 -0700, Craig White wrote: On Thu, 2013-01-31 at 15:07 -0500, Robert Moskowitz wrote: On 01/31/2013 12:52 PM, Frank Murphy wrote: On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 15:55:08 + Patrick O'Callaghan pocallag...@gmail.com wrote: Way way OT: Just out of interest, why do some people use the non-existent word i, not to mention other violations of capitalization rules when 1) their Shift key is clearly not broken, Could be various reasons. It's a multi-cultural list. English as 2nd or 3rd language. users may not have a western-style keyboard. Maybe dyslexic (in rare case spell-check could complicate matters) I **AM** dyslexic and live and die by my speel ckecher. my oldest brother is probably the smartest person I know - and he was dyslexic too. He is also a graduate chemical engineer, former union organizer, economics professor (masters degree) and it's obvious that while spelling and grammar checkers are a must for people with these problems, the truth is that it's about effective communication and I don't have much patience for those who want to insist on rules of communication rather than just appreciate the communication. If it were either/or, I would agree with you, but that's a straw man and a false dichotomy. With the exception of dyslexics (who AFAIK tend to be of above-average intelligence), it's not a question of either you communicate effectively or you follow grammar rules. Grammar rules exist in order to make communication more effective by reducing the amount of cognitive dissonance. Reading is not done letter by letter or word by word, but in larger units, and every time I see 'i' instead of 'I', it interrupts my train of comprehension, even for a a few milliseconds. What's good about that? poc -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
Am 01.02.2013 01:35, schrieb Patrick O'Callaghan: Reading is not done letter by letter or word by word, but in larger units, and every time I see 'i' instead of 'I', it interrupts my train of comprehension well, that is your personal problem in fact here in german speaking countries there are way more words which are normally not written lowercase at all but nobody has a problem these days read sms, email and so on without a single uppercase letter signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On 02/01/2013 08:28 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: As far as I'm aware, this is the only time the subject has come up in all the years I've been on this list. And I clearly flagged it as OT, so don't feel you need to read it. I've always felt the OT was meant to indicate a computer related question which may not directly relate to Fedora. I didn't think it was a catch all to be used to start a discussion on one's personal pet peeves. Heck, if your post is to be encourage then why not start post about gun rights or Tibet or pick your poison. Just as the follow-on has shown the tangents to be endless and the opinions to be endless and . Besides, haven't you indicated that people should trim posts so as not to waste bandwidth? Do you really think this thread is worthy of the bandwidth and the disk space it is taking up? -- Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning. -- Rick Cook, The Wizardry Compiled -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On 01/31/2013 07:12 PM, Mark LaPierre wrote: On 01/31/2013 10:55 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: Another irritating colloquial figure of speech is the use of the word and in place of the word to in association with the word try. Example, I will try and work that out. Is the speaker going to try that out, or is the speaker going to work that out, or is the speaker planning on both? What I assume is the speaker meant that the speaker will try to work that out. Are you perhaps familiar with the word idiom? --doug -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On Fri, 01 Feb 2013 08:50:09 +0800 Ed Greshko ed.gres...@greshko.com wrote: On 02/01/2013 08:28 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: As far as I'm aware, this is the only time the subject has come up in all the years I've been on this list. And I clearly flagged it as OT, so don't feel you need to read it. I've always felt the OT was meant to indicate a computer related question which may not directly relate to Fedora. I didn't think it was a catch all to be used to start a discussion on one's personal pet peeves. Well, technically, the OP might argue that this topic is related to the netiquette of the mailing list postings in general, etc., and therefore in an OT-way still related to this mailing list... But I think it's just that time of the month, so to speak. ;-) We didn't have the regular king-sized-off-topic-troll-party-thread for quite some time now, so it is only natural that one such appears sooner than later. Actually, AFAIK this is the very first such thread in 2013, so I feel kind of enthusiastic about it... :-D Best, :-) Marko -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On Fri, Feb 01, 2013 at 12:37:47AM +0100, Marko Vojinovic wrote: On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 15:55:08 + Patrick O'Callaghan pocallag...@gmail.com wrote: Just out of interest, why do some people use the non-existent word i, not to mention other violations of capitalization rules when 1) their Shift key is clearly not broken, and 2) they aren't the poet e.e. cummings? I've seen a number of people do this (admittedly a tiny minority) and never understood it. Do they think it's cool? Are they expressing their inner rebel? Were they punished by their English teacher at school? Is hitting Shift too much effort? Enquiring minds want to know. Speaking of that, I never understood why is the I capitalized in English? my first/last two pennies: very early on, typesetters had difficulty telling the difference between i and j since manuscripts were written in longhand. I heard this in grade school, tho, so it may have been made up to keep students quiet. Or, to rephrase it in your words, what's with the I? ;-) To begin with, I don't know of any other language which capitalizes this word. Also, while my English teachers were always very explicit that the I should always be capitalized, none of them has ever managed to give me a reasonable answer _why_ this is so. While I agree with you that correct spelling is something worth taking care of in e-mail communication, I was always wondering about the completely randomized spelling rules in English language. Or rather the utter absence of any real rules. In other languages, those rules often actually make sense, and make the language easier to read and write. For example, the concept of spelling competitions in elementary schools was completely foreign to me until I heard about it from English schoolchildren. In most other languages, knowing how to properly spell words does not need any advanced knowledge, and basically is not considered to be a skill worth competing over. But English spelling is s contrived that people had to invent spell-checkers to deal with it. :-D And let's not even start with the even more contrived problem of the proper *pronunciation* of the written English. ;-) Best, :-) Marko -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org -- Gary Kline kl...@thought.org http://www.thought.org Public Service Unix Twenty-six years of service to the Unix community. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 05:41:58PM -0800, Gary Kline wrote: my first/last two pennies: very early on, typesetters had difficulty telling the difference between i and j since manuscripts were written in longhand. I heard this in grade school, tho, so it may have been made up to keep students quiet. http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/7986/why-should-the-first-person-pronoun-i-always-be-capitalized -- Matthew Miller ☁☁☁ Fedora Cloud Architect ☁☁☁ mat...@fedoraproject.org -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
On 01/31/2013 04:07 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote: On 01/31/2013 03:38 PM, Craig White wrote: On Thu, 2013-01-31 at 15:55 +, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: Way way OT: Just out of interest, why do some people use the non-existent word i, not to mention other violations of capitalization rules when 1) their Shift key is clearly not broken, and 2) they aren't the poet e.e. cummings? I've seen a number of people do this (admittedly a tiny minority) and never understood it. Do they think it's cool? Are they expressing their inner rebel? Were they punished by their English teacher at school? Is hitting Shift too much effort? Enquiring minds want to know. Sorry, this has been bugging me for ages and I had just had to get this off my chest. Feel free to ignore. better get used to it and other language simplifications encouraged by SMS/tweeting/etc. It's only going to increase. There's younger generations that simply aren't likely to feel bound your rules. Grammar snobbery is just going to turn you into an unhappy PITA. My copy of this is back in the mid-90s: Vy Knot? Having chosen English as the preferred language in the EEC, the European Parliament has commissioned a feasibility study in ways of improving efficiency in communications between Government departments. European officials have often pointed out that English spelling is unnecessarily difficult; for example: cough, plough, rough, through and thorough. What is clearly needed is a phased programme of changes to iron out these anomalies. The programme would, of course, be administered by a committee staff at top level by participating nations. In the first year, for example, the committee would suggest using 's' instead of the soft 'c'. Sertainly, sivil servants in all sities would resieve this news with joy. Then the hard 'c' could be replaced by 'k' sinse both letters are pronounsed alike. Not only would this klear up konfusion in the minds of klerikal workers, but typewriters kould be made with one less letter. There would be growing enthusiasm when in the sekond year, it was announsed that the troublesome 'ph' would henseforth be written 'f'. This would make words like 'fotograf' twenty persent shorter in print. In the third year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to reash the stage where more komplikated shanges are possible. Governments would enkourage the removal of double leters whish have always been a deterent to akurate speling. We would al agre that the horible mes of silent 'e's in the languag is disgrasful. Therefor we kould drop them and kontinu to read and writ as though nothing had hapend. By this tim it would be four years sins the skem began and peopl would be reseptiv to steps sutsh as replasing 'th' by 'z'. Perhaps zen ze funktion of 'w' kould be taken on by 'v', vitsh is, after al, half a 'w'. Shortly after zis, ze unesesary 'o' kould be dropd from vords kontaining 'ou'. Similar arguments vud of kors be aplid to ozer kombinations of leters. Kontinuing zis proses yer after yer, ve vud eventuli hav a reli sensibl riten styl. After tventi yers zer vud be no mor trubls, difikultis and evrivun vud find it ezi tu understand ech ozer. Ze drems of the Guvermnt vud finali hav kum tru. OMG!...this is HILARIOUS!I LOVE it!...LoL! EGO II -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
Allegedly, on or about 31 January 2013, Craig White sent: better get used to it and other language simplifications encouraged by SMS/tweeting/etc. It's only going to increase. There's younger generations that simply aren't likely to feel bound your rules. Grammar snobbery is just going to turn you into an unhappy PITA. Of course, one can have their revenge by using proper language when talking to / writing to these youngsters, and make them equally flumuxed when trying to understand what you've written. ;-) I say that, mainly, in jest. But it's been my experience with some modern teenagers, that their grasp of language is rather poor. Never mind the written word, even the odd three-syllable word in spoken language, with nothing much more unusual than the words being used in this email, from you and I, gets blank stares and needs explaining and rewording. And why might that be? Because reading and writing, more specifically being taught both of them, fell out of fashion. I don't mean something heavy like learning Shakespeare by heart, or latin, just plain old ordinary language of the current day. Some of the year 12's work, that I looked at, bordered on remedial primary school. In just about all ways; length, grammar, punctuation, and very immature language. If they spent anything more than about five minutes on it, I'd be really appalled. While you might call it grammar snobbery, it does them no favour when they can't read or right well enough to apply for a job and keep it. Some even can't follow the instructions for applying to the job. Which relates to a second failing of our current education system, thinking that you don't actually having to do what you're told to do. And you can see the follow-through of that in various ways, thinking that the road rules and laws of the land are something that other people have to adhere to. -- [tim@localhost ~]$ uname -rsvp Linux 3.6.11-5.fc17.x86_64 #1 SMP Tue Jan 8 21:40:51 UTC 2013 x86_64 All mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted, there is no point trying to privately email me, I will only read messages posted to the public lists. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: OT: what's with the 'i'?
Allegedly, on or about 31 January 2013, Patrick O'Callaghan sent: Just out of interest, why do some people use the non-existent word i, Any of - they don't know better, they don't care in the first place, they don't care about correcting typing errors, they didn't notice, they're typing one-handed, they're so used to spelling correctors auto-correcting their typing for them... The misuse of loose and lose bugs me the most, second is probably dose instead of does. But seeing someone type in all-caps tends to be far more annoying that someone posting in all-lower-case. Usually I gloss over the occasional one, but some messages require an awful lot of interpretation trying to figure out what they meant, thanks to their complete lack of structure. -- [tim@localhost ~]$ uname -rsvp Linux 3.6.11-5.fc17.x86_64 #1 SMP Tue Jan 8 21:40:51 UTC 2013 x86_64 All mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted, there is no point trying to privately email me, I will only read messages posted to the public lists. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
