Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
On 2011-09-14, Dotan Cohen wrote: On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 23:18, Nuno J. Silva nunojsi...@ist.utl.pt wrote: Yes, there are deviations. I even remember threads about LibO files failing ODF validation. But, as LibreOffice is free software, its source is open. So people who want to find out how exactly are LibO ODF files generated can check the source. I see, the old argument that the source code is the standard. I thought that this was a technical discussion, not a religious one. Sorry, wrong room. Yeah, because it's totally easier to reverse-engineer and decompile Microsoft Office than to read the publicly accessible LibreOffice code... -- Nuno J. Silva (aka njsg) gopher://sdf-eu.org/1/users/njsg -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 23:43, Cor Nouws oo...@nouenoff.nl wrote: Dotan Cohen wrote (12-09-11 20:52) One team at MS works on MS Office, another on the OOXML standard. .docx != ooxml (the MsOffice 2007/2010 file format is not the standard OOXML) Not that I consider Wikipedia as an authoritative source, but this states quite clearly that it is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Docx -- Dotan Cohen http://gibberish.co.il http://what-is-what.com -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 23:18, Nuno J. Silva nunojsi...@ist.utl.pt wrote: Yes, there are deviations. I even remember threads about LibO files failing ODF validation. But, as LibreOffice is free software, its source is open. So people who want to find out how exactly are LibO ODF files generated can check the source. I see, the old argument that the source code is the standard. I thought that this was a technical discussion, not a religious one. Sorry, wrong room. -- Dotan Cohen http://gibberish.co.il http://what-is-what.com -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
Dotan Cohen wrote (14-09-11 10:17) On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 23:43, Cor Nouwsoo...@nouenoff.nl wrote: Dotan Cohen wrote (12-09-11 20:52) .docx != ooxml (the MsOffice 2007/2010 file format is not the standard OOXML) Not that I consider Wikipedia as an authoritative source, but this states quite clearly that it is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Docx It states that MsOffice 2007/2010 supports OOXML to a certain level and refers to the promises that future versions will do better. -- - Cor - http://nl.libreoffice.org -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 21:58, Cor Nouws oo...@nouenoff.nl wrote: It states that MsOffice 2007/2010 supports OOXML to a certain level and refers to the promises that future versions will do better. In addition, these are stated: Starting with Microsoft Office 2007, the Office Open XML file formats have become the default target file format of Microsoft Office, although the Strict variant of the standard is not yet fully supported. Office Open XML Document Filename extension: .docx or .docm -- Dotan Cohen http://gibberish.co.il http://what-is-what.com -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
I rarely use presentation documents, but, I will see if I can create an example of the failure and file a bug unless someone else can do this. Also interested in the numbering/bullet issue that you mentioned. If you have a simple example of both documents, can you just email me a copy. Worst case, I can host them... I have not yet figured out filing bugs in LO, but, I expect it will not be a problem to do. On 09/11/2011 12:32 PM, Spencer Graves wrote: Hi, Andrew: Thanks for asking. Attached please find a single slide in LibreOffice Impress consisting of a single dashed line. When I saved it in MS Office 97 ppt format and reopened it in LibreOffice Impress 3.4.3, the dashes were converted visually to solid. When I checked the line style, it reported nothing (not solid, as it had when I drew it before I changed it). Other problems I've had were with previous versions, and I have not yet confirmed them in v. 3.4.3. I will do that. Spencer On 9/11/2011 9:19 AM, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak wrote: Spencer, Any chance you can create a few simple examples and open a bug against the simple examples? On 09/11/2011 11:31 AM, Spencer Graves wrote: For me, the answer is NOT obvious, because of (a) the occasional incompatibilities and (b) the things that are easier in MS Office than LibreOffice. I've had problems with LibreOffice where I save something in *.doc format or *.ppt and reopen it, and it's different. Also, I've been using Open Office / LibreOffice regularly for 1.5 years now, and I still cannot find how to control bullets and numbering as easily as I could with MS Office. For any document I have to send to a collaborator who uses MS Office, I need to keep it primarily in the MS format to increase the chances that I will at least know what is being changed without warning! For example, in LibreOffice 3.4.3 Impress, create a dashed line and save it in MS PowerPoint 97 format. Close then reopen it. When I did that just now under Windows 7 x64, the line style was lost and it displayed solid. If I do NOT have to share it with an MS Office user, then I keep it in Open Office format. Otherwise, I must convert at some point to MS format, and I should do that regularly at least until I identify at least one incompatibility problem. Best Wishes, Spencer -- Andrew Pitonyak My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt Info: http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
Am 12.09.2011 02:28, Edwin Powell wrote: If LibreOffice and OpenOffice.org did not support M$ Office file formats, nobody would support them. Like it or not, the M$ Office file formats, both the older ones and the newer XML based ones, are the defacto industry standards. The greatest marketing point that OOo and There is only one file format which - resembles the whole feature set of OOo/LibO (which comes very close to MS) - is perfectly well documented and supported - without being technically too difficult to implement (even partial implementations give valid documents) - is implementable without any legal issues, disclosure agreements, patent fees, binary enclosuers nor vendor specific implementation details. Such a file format will never be actively supported by Microsoft. This was the core point why the whole software project around ODF started in the first place. And we were going to win the race until Novell entered the scene. Controlling the daily used file formats _in_whatever_software_product_ is the strategic key point why MS formats are de-facto standards without implementing any standard at all. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
Hi :) Andrew there is a guide to help people post bug-reports http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/BugReport I agree with NoOp, that it is too obscure. I would like it if there was a link to it from a couple of different pages on the LO website, for example it's relevant to both these pages imo http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/ http://www.libreoffice.org/get-involved/ It might be good if it was also on http://www.libreoffice.org/download/ So that anyone that downloads it sees an easy route to posting a bug-report. I agree with Edwin, Spencer, Carl Shapiro, Hal Varian and others that say we need to support MS formats for now and will hopefully need to support them when they become legacy formats. I think that as more people use OpenSource programs such as LibreOffice, Google docs, Calligra, Gnome Office and even some proprietary programs they will find it easier and better to use OpenDocument Formats. I don't think we can switch to ODFs until after most people are using programs that can read/write them adequately well. Just my 2cents Regards from Tom :) -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Should-LibreOffice-even-support-Microsoft-secret-formats-tp3325743p3329140.html Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 00:13, Nuno J. Silva nunojsi...@ist.utl.pt wrote: Yes, that's the issue. I don't know about the binary formats, but I've read that Microsoft does not actually *follow* OOXML. (This, if true, means, ironically, that there is no program with complete, 100%, OOXML support.) Maybe it was just a hoax, but I doubt it. After all, it's Microsoft. With Microsoft stardards, either someone steps forward and spends their time working out how to convert between MS formats and ODF, which will take a *lot* of time (and will not address the implementation deviations), or people flag issues and devs will address compatibility issue by issue. So, people with compatiblity issues, please report these issues. One team at MS works on MS Office, another on the OOXML standard. This is required to be considered for a standard. Much how LO is written by a group of programmers, and the ODF standard by engineers. LO does not implement the ODF standard 100% either. -- Dotan Cohen http://gibberish.co.il http://what-is-what.com -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
On 2011-09-12, Dotan Cohen wrote: On Sun, Sep 11, 2011 at 23:41, Anthony Papillion anth...@cryptofreaks.tk wrote: MS don't implement their standard in the way that they wrote they would. Having set a standard anyone that follows that standard is guaranteed to produce things that are a little wonky when opened in MS Office. LO devs work at getting LO's implementation as wonky as MS's but the wonkiness is the unknown factor. Ok, I can accept that. But then, aren't we back to a 'secret format'? If I implement a standard to write out a file a certain way and do it in another way that isn't documented then I'm not following the standard and, thus, my filetype is secret. The only way it's *not* secret is if they file is written to the standard without any deviations. [...] By that logic, LO uses a secret format as well. LO and OpenOffice.org deviate from the ODF standard in more documented ways than MS Office deviates from OOXML. Yes, there are deviations. I even remember threads about LibO files failing ODF validation. But, as LibreOffice is free software, its source is open. So people who want to find out how exactly are LibO ODF files generated can check the source. -- Nuno J. Silva (aka njsg) gopher://sdf-eu.org/1/users/njsg -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
Dotan Cohen wrote (12-09-11 20:52) One team at MS works on MS Office, another on the OOXML standard. .docx != ooxml (the MsOffice 2007/2010 file format is not the standard OOXML) -- - Cor - http://nl.libreoffice.org -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
The answer is obvious. Save in odf and get used to using odf. When there is a requirement to use an MS suffix,use Save As to do a copy in doc or docx, but keep your copy in odf. Tink. -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Should-LibreOffice-even-support-Microsoft-secret-formats-tp3325743p3326996.html Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
For me, the answer is NOT obvious, because of (a) the occasional incompatibilities and (b) the things that are easier in MS Office than LibreOffice. I've had problems with LibreOffice where I save something in *.doc format or *.ppt and reopen it, and it's different. Also, I've been using Open Office / LibreOffice regularly for 1.5 years now, and I still cannot find how to control bullets and numbering as easily as I could with MS Office. For any document I have to send to a collaborator who uses MS Office, I need to keep it primarily in the MS format to increase the chances that I will at least know what is being changed without warning! For example, in LibreOffice 3.4.3 Impress, create a dashed line and save it in MS PowerPoint 97 format. Close then reopen it. When I did that just now under Windows 7 x64, the line style was lost and it displayed solid. If I do NOT have to share it with an MS Office user, then I keep it in Open Office format. Otherwise, I must convert at some point to MS format, and I should do that regularly at least until I identify at least one incompatibility problem. Best Wishes, Spencer On 9/11/2011 7:54 AM, Tinkerer wrote: The answer is obvious. Save in odf and get used to using odf. When there is a requirement to use an MS suffix,use Save As to do a copy in doc or docx, but keep your copy in odf. Tink. -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Should-LibreOffice-even-support-Microsoft-secret-formats-tp3325743p3326996.html Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
Spencer, Any chance you can create a few simple examples and open a bug against the simple examples? On 09/11/2011 11:31 AM, Spencer Graves wrote: For me, the answer is NOT obvious, because of (a) the occasional incompatibilities and (b) the things that are easier in MS Office than LibreOffice. I've had problems with LibreOffice where I save something in *.doc format or *.ppt and reopen it, and it's different. Also, I've been using Open Office / LibreOffice regularly for 1.5 years now, and I still cannot find how to control bullets and numbering as easily as I could with MS Office. For any document I have to send to a collaborator who uses MS Office, I need to keep it primarily in the MS format to increase the chances that I will at least know what is being changed without warning! For example, in LibreOffice 3.4.3 Impress, create a dashed line and save it in MS PowerPoint 97 format. Close then reopen it. When I did that just now under Windows 7 x64, the line style was lost and it displayed solid. If I do NOT have to share it with an MS Office user, then I keep it in Open Office format. Otherwise, I must convert at some point to MS format, and I should do that regularly at least until I identify at least one incompatibility problem. Best Wishes, Spencer -- Andrew Pitonyak My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt Info: http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
Hi, Andrew: Thanks for asking. Attached please find a single slide in LibreOffice Impress consisting of a single dashed line. When I saved it in MS Office 97 ppt format and reopened it in LibreOffice Impress 3.4.3, the dashes were converted visually to solid. When I checked the line style, it reported nothing (not solid, as it had when I drew it before I changed it). Other problems I've had were with previous versions, and I have not yet confirmed them in v. 3.4.3. I will do that. Spencer On 9/11/2011 9:19 AM, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak wrote: Spencer, Any chance you can create a few simple examples and open a bug against the simple examples? On 09/11/2011 11:31 AM, Spencer Graves wrote: For me, the answer is NOT obvious, because of (a) the occasional incompatibilities and (b) the things that are easier in MS Office than LibreOffice. I've had problems with LibreOffice where I save something in *.doc format or *.ppt and reopen it, and it's different. Also, I've been using Open Office / LibreOffice regularly for 1.5 years now, and I still cannot find how to control bullets and numbering as easily as I could with MS Office. For any document I have to send to a collaborator who uses MS Office, I need to keep it primarily in the MS format to increase the chances that I will at least know what is being changed without warning! For example, in LibreOffice 3.4.3 Impress, create a dashed line and save it in MS PowerPoint 97 format. Close then reopen it. When I did that just now under Windows 7 x64, the line style was lost and it displayed solid. If I do NOT have to share it with an MS Office user, then I keep it in Open Office format. Otherwise, I must convert at some point to MS format, and I should do that regularly at least until I identify at least one incompatibility problem. Best Wishes, Spencer -- Spencer Graves, PE, PhD President and Chief Technology Officer Structure Inspection and Monitoring, Inc. 751 Emerson Ct. San José, CA 95126 ph: 408-655-4567 web: www.structuremonitoring.com -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
For example, in LibreOffice 3.4.3 Impress, create a dashed line and save it in MS PowerPoint 97 format. Close then reopen it. When I did that just now under Windows 7 x64, the line style was lost and it displayed solid. just checked it in both LO 3.3.4 and 3.4.3.'97 format (ie,ppt) showing the dashed line as dashed line when opened in LO.when the file is saved into .pptx,the dashed line is getting converted into a solid one. so,for me,'97 format is working properly. anybody else having difficulty with '97 format regards, On 11 September 2011 21:01, Spencer Graves spencer.gra...@prodsyse.comwrote: For me, the answer is NOT obvious, because of (a) the occasional incompatibilities and (b) the things that are easier in MS Office than LibreOffice. I've had problems with LibreOffice where I save something in *.doc format or *.ppt and reopen it, and it's different. Also, I've been using Open Office / LibreOffice regularly for 1.5 years now, and I still cannot find how to control bullets and numbering as easily as I could with MS Office. For any document I have to send to a collaborator who uses MS Office, I need to keep it primarily in the MS format to increase the chances that I will at least know what is being changed without warning! For example, in LibreOffice 3.4.3 Impress, create a dashed line and save it in MS PowerPoint 97 format. Close then reopen it. When I did that just now under Windows 7 x64, the line style was lost and it displayed solid. If I do NOT have to share it with an MS Office user, then I keep it in Open Office format. Otherwise, I must convert at some point to MS format, and I should do that regularly at least until I identify at least one incompatibility problem. Best Wishes, Spencer On 9/11/2011 7:54 AM, Tinkerer wrote: The answer is obvious. Save in odf and get used to using odf. When there is a requirement to use an MS suffix,use Save As to do a copy in doc or docx, but keep your copy in odf. Tink. -- View this message in context: http://nabble.** documentfoundation.org/Should-**LibreOffice-even-support-** Microsoft-secret-formats-**tp3325743p3326996.htmlhttp://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Should-LibreOffice-even-support-Microsoft-secret-formats-tp3325743p3326996.html Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+help@global.libreoffice.** org users%2bh...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/**get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-** unsubscribe/http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.**documentfoundation.org/** Netiquette http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.**libreoffice.org/global/users/http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Dr soumalya ray http://drsoumalya.blogspot.com drsouma...@gmail.com MBBS,MD(PGT-C.Medicine),Ex-HousePhysician(Medicine) Skype: som3776 | Twitter: @docbkp http://twitter.com/docbkp -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
2011/9/11 Spencer Graves spencer.gra...@prodsyse.com: For me, the answer is NOT obvious, because of (a) the occasional incompatibilities and (b) the things that are easier in MS Office than LibreOffice. How is that not obvious? Just continue using MS Office, or did I miss something? Kind regards Johnny Rosenberg ジョニー・ローゼンバーグ -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
On 2011-09-11, Spencer Graves wrote: On 9/11/2011 9:19 AM, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak wrote: Any chance you can create a few simple examples and open a bug against the simple examples? Thanks for asking. Attached please find a single slide in LibreOffice Impress consisting of a single dashed line. [...] This list does not allow attachments, so your slide did not reach the list. Can you perhaps host it somewhere and send the URL to the list? -- Nuno J. Silva (aka njsg) gopher://sdf-eu.org/1/users/njsg -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
On 9/11/2011 10:00 AM, Nuno J. Silva wrote: On 2011-09-11, Spencer Graves wrote: On 9/11/2011 9:19 AM, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak wrote: Any chance you can create a few simple examples and open a bug against the simple examples? Thanks for asking. Attached please find a single slide in LibreOffice Impress consisting of a single dashed line. [...] This list does not allow attachments, so your slide did not reach the list. Can you perhaps host it somewhere and send the URL to the list? Open a blank document in LibreOffice Impress, draw a line, and change the line style to dashed. Then save it as MS Office 97 *.ppt. Then close and reopen the *.ppt. For me, the dashes are converted to a solid line. When I checked the line style, it was blank, not solid like it appears nor dashed as I specified it. It's a minor pain for me to save it and send the URL; I hope this will be adequate. Thanks for your interest. Spencer -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
Spencer The early version of MSO for the Mac left a lot to be desired, so I tried OOo. That was about six years ago. I very quickly graduated onto NeoOffice, a great improvement, then when the Doc F was founded I moved to LO. I am treasurer of a society and whilst I am knowledgeable of the members requirements, the officers of other societies are often an unknown quantity. Libre 3.4.3 fulfils all my requirements, mainly with writer, calc and the occasional presentation. It has never let me down and I have received no complaints. I keep everything I do in Libre format. What I receive I keep in the format it arrived in and as I said, I am happy to supply to others in whatever format they prefer. If you find MSO easier then that is your privilege. I haven't touched MSO on a PC since I retired eighteen years ago, so I don't have your experience. Tink. -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Should-LibreOffice-even-support-Microsoft-secret-formats-tp3325743p3327274.html Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
On 9/11/2011 10:37 AM, Tinkerer wrote: Spencer The early version of MSO for the Mac left a lot to be desired, so I tried OOo. Fifteen years ago, I had compatibility problems with MS Word on PCs and on Macs: Microsoft was not even compatible with itself across platforms. That was a problem, because my primary collaborator at that time loved Mac equipment. He was in a university environment, and it was substantially more expensive for me to pay for that, so I stayed with PC compatibles and suffered the compatibility problems. That was about six years ago. I very quickly graduated onto NeoOffice, a great improvement, then when the Doc F was founded I moved to LO. I am treasurer of a society and whilst I am knowledgeable of the members requirements, the officers of other societies are often an unknown quantity. Libre 3.4.3 fulfils all my requirements, mainly with writer, calc and the occasional presentation. It has never let me down and I have received no complaints. I keep everything I do in Libre format. What I receive I keep in the format it arrived in and as I said, I am happy to supply to others in whatever format they prefer. If you find MSO easier then that is your privilege. I haven't touched MSO on a PC since I retired eighteen years ago, so I don't have your experience. MSO 97 is easier for me, but I don't have it, because it's no longer available. Rather pay for having to relearn where MS has hidden all the controls with the new version, I can to Open Office and then LibreOffice. Spencer Tink. -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Should-LibreOffice-even-support-Microsoft-secret-formats-tp3325743p3327274.html Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- Spencer Graves, PE, PhD President and Chief Technology Officer Structure Inspection and Monitoring, Inc. 751 Emerson Ct. San José, CA 95126 ph: 408-655-4567 web: www.structuremonitoring.com -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
Another example: 1. Download http://www.cagreens.org/sclara/resources/flyers/noCreditCd-bookmark20110306.odt;. 2. Open in LibreOffice 3.4.3. Save as MS Word 97 *.doc format. 3. Close, then reopen the *.doc version: When I did this now under Windows 7, this changed the widths of the columns had changed and with it the column breaks, etc. I checked Format - Page - Columns: *.odt showed from Autowidth with columns = 1.42, space = 0.70; *.doc had columns = 2.13, space = 0.70. The numbers do not make sense to me, but the visual change is clear. I noticed this problem with an earlier version of LibreOffice 3.4 and I think also with Open Office 3.3. Enjoy (if that's the right word). Spencer # On 9/11/2011 10:37 AM, Tinkerer wrote: Spencer The early version of MSO for the Mac left a lot to be desired, so I tried OOo. Fifteen years ago, I had compatibility problems with MS Word on PCs and on Macs: Microsoft was not even compatible with itself across platforms. That was a problem, because my primary collaborator at that time loved Mac equipment. He was in a university environment, and it was substantially more expensive for me to pay for that, so I stayed with PC compatibles and suffered the compatibility problems. That was about six years ago. I very quickly graduated onto NeoOffice, a great improvement, then when the Doc F was founded I moved to LO. I am treasurer of a society and whilst I am knowledgeable of the members requirements, the officers of other societies are often an unknown quantity. Libre 3.4.3 fulfils all my requirements, mainly with writer, calc and the occasional presentation. It has never let me down and I have received no complaints. I keep everything I do in Libre format. What I receive I keep in the format it arrived in and as I said, I am happy to supply to others in whatever format they prefer. If you find MSO easier then that is your privilege. I haven't touched MSO on a PC since I retired eighteen years ago, so I don't have your experience. MSO 97 is easier for me, but I don't have it, because it's no longer available. Rather pay for having to relearn where MS has hidden all the controls with the new version, I can to Open Office and then LibreOffice. Spencer Tink. -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Should-LibreOffice-even-support-Microsoft-secret-formats-tp3325743p3327274.html Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
This is a general replay to Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats? illustrating my personal situation, and why my answer is *yes*. I moved from Microsoft Office Professional to Word Perfect Office Professional probably 12 to 13 years ago. The reason for the professional versions is that I needed a database as well as an office suite. When Open Office first came out, I moved to it, starting with version .9 something. I needed to keep Paradox as my database at that time. Once Base became available with Open Office, I was able to move to Base and drop proprietary software for an office suite completely. Once I had everything in Open Office, I had one major step forward for someday moving to Linux instead of Windows. I made that transition 2 1/2 years ago. I get many attachments from co-workers and other organizations that are sent in Microsoft format. Most of these documents are relatively simple. I've not had anyone send me anything in docx format I couldn't read. Generally I will need to adjust margins, or something like that. I'm 97% Windows free. I only use it for video editing and for a forms program which will not work with Wine in Linux. Most of the people who send me these attachments are using what they are required to use, which is Microsoft. If I could not be somewhat compatible with them, Open Office or LibreOffice now, would be of no value to me at all. If we could get back to the big push of several years for governments to adopt odf standards for all of their documents, we would all be a lot better off. But that push would never work if there wasn't some backward compatibility for the former Microsoft users to be able to open previous documents. Don -- *** * -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
Spencer That is odd. According to the Format/Page the column widths have not been altered. On the page, they have. Re. Your comments as to the future of LO and all FOSS. Count me in. Tink. -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Should-LibreOffice-even-support-Microsoft-secret-formats-tp3325743p3327423.html Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
On 09/11/2011 11:47 AM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote: I'm still bemused by the persistence of the secret Microsoft formats meme. As a matter of fact, which formats that matter for OpenOffice are believed to be secret? I can't find any that OpenOffice converts that are not public and licensed under the Open Specification Promise as well. That may not be enough assurance for some folks, but it is definitely not because they are secret. - Dennis PS: The only three formats that I encounter and that would be good to know are (1) Microsoft Money - since it has been abandoned, (2) Windows Live Writer drafts format, and (3) OneNote format. These might not be secret, but I haven't found where they are documented. Somehow, I don't think those are the ones that are meant. ... http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/gg134032.aspx OneNote: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd924743%28v=office.12%29.aspx http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd951288%28v=office.12%29.aspx -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
On 11/09/2011, Spencer Graves spencer.gra...@prodsyse.com wrote: LibreOffice. I've had problems with LibreOffice where I save something in *.doc format or *.ppt and reopen it, and it's different. This is the fundamental essence of the problem. The majority of m$ users of LO want a free m$ clone, ideally producing m$ file formats. A more interesting question to the _long term_ development of the odf is, did you experience problems saving to native odf? could with MS Office. For any document I have to send to a collaborator who uses MS Office, I need to keep it primarily in the MS format to increase the chances that I will at least know what is being changed without warning! It is difficult to believe that as a profitable business, you are unable to buy m$o. In effect, m$ users are asking LO programmers to donate their _free_ time to subsidise your collective unwillingness to buy m$o! It is hoped that all those m$ users seeking an m$ clone, should donate at least equivalent to Euro5 per m$ format technical support question to LO. For example, in LibreOffice 3.4.3 Impress, create a dashed line and save it in MS PowerPoint 97 format. Close then reopen it. When I did that just now under Windows 7 x64, the line style was lost and it displayed solid. If I do NOT have to share it with an MS Office user, then I keep it in Open Office format. Otherwise, I must convert at some Does the dashed line remain so in native odf? If so, LO is working fine. If you want m$ perfection, buy m$o or donate an equivalent value to LO for m$ clone development. Presumably for m$ users, the _freely donated_ time spent on m$ compatibility should be at the expense of time available to develop a superior _true alternative_ to m$, in which case requests for monetary donations are entirely justified. Strategic development of odf is a long term goal, my guess is at least 20 years to become significant in quantity. For every extra m$ file format created by LO and distributed as so (and thus by definition every less potential odf file), the time to increase the quantity of odf documents in existence is lengthened. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
On 09/11/2011 03:05 PM, NoOp wrote: As a matter of fact, which formats that matter for OpenOffice are believed to be secret? I can't find any that OpenOffice converts that are not public and licensed under the Open Specification Promise as well. That may not be enough assurance for some folks, but it is definitely not because they are secret. My assumption was that the word secret was used where it should have been propriety. But certainly Microsoft wants to prevent as much compatibility as possible. Don -- *** * -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 16:05:01 -0400 From: donmy...@myersfarm.com My assumption was that the word secret was used where it should have been propriety. But certainly Microsoft wants to prevent as much compatibility as possible. Perhaps I did use 'secret' when I should have used 'proprietary' instead. However, I still have to question how Microsoft can 'prevent compatibility' if the file LibreOffice produces is an exact copy of what Microsoft Office produces or if the files MSO produces are all in a well documented format, why LibO still has problems handling complex files. It certainly can't be a programming issue since having the documentation of the filetype makes reading and writing them a snap. So why do we still have problems with MSO files? Anthony -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
Hi :) MS don't implement their standard in the way that they wrote they would. Having set a standard anyone that follows that standard is guaranteed to produce things that are a little wonky when opened in MS Office. LO devs work at getting LO's implementation as wonky as MS's but the wonkiness is the unknown factor. Regards from Tom :) --- On Sun, 11/9/11, Anthony Papillion anth...@cryptofreaks.tk wrote: From: Anthony Papillion anth...@cryptofreaks.tk Subject: RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats? To: LibreOffice Mailing List users@global.libreoffice.org Date: Sunday, 11 September, 2011, 21:15 Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 16:05:01 -0400 From: donmy...@myersfarm.com My assumption was that the word secret was used where it should have been propriety. But certainly Microsoft wants to prevent as much compatibility as possible. Perhaps I did use 'secret' when I should have used 'proprietary' instead. However, I still have to question how Microsoft can 'prevent compatibility' if the file LibreOffice produces is an exact copy of what Microsoft Office produces or if the files MSO produces are all in a well documented format, why LibO still has problems handling complex files. It certainly can't be a programming issue since having the documentation of the filetype makes reading and writing them a snap. So why do we still have problems with MSO files? Anthony -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 21:33:09 +0100 From: tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk Hi :) MS don't implement their standard in the way that they wrote they would. Having set a standard anyone that follows that standard is guaranteed to produce things that are a little wonky when opened in MS Office. LO devs work at getting LO's implementation as wonky as MS's but the wonkiness is the unknown factor. Hi Tom, Ok, I can accept that. But then, aren't we back to a 'secret format'? If I implement a standard to write out a file a certain way and do it in another way that isn't documented then I'm not following the standard and, thus, my filetype is secret. The only way it's *not* secret is if they file is written to the standard without any deviations. At first, I thought 'ok, so this means MS has published a standard that other vendors can write to and MS will has implemented that standard (in addition to their secret one) so that MSO can always properly read other vendor created MSO files. But that's not the case. There are times, it seems, when LibO files are improperly rendered in MSO. So, apparently, the 'standard' really doesn't mean anything because that's not really what Microsoft is doing. Anthony -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
On 2011-09-11, Anthony Papillion wrote: From: tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk MS don't implement their standard in the way that they wrote they would. Having set a standard anyone that follows that standard is guaranteed to produce things that are a little wonky when opened in MS Office. LO devs work at getting LO's implementation as wonky as MS's but the wonkiness is the unknown factor. Ok, I can accept that. But then, aren't we back to a 'secret format'? If I implement a standard to write out a file a certain way and do it in another way that isn't documented then I'm not following the standard and, thus, my filetype is secret. The only way it's *not* secret is if they file is written to the standard without any deviations. At first, I thought 'ok, so this means MS has published a standard that other vendors can write to and MS will has implemented that standard (in addition to their secret one) so that MSO can always properly read other vendor created MSO files. But that's not the case. There are times, it seems, when LibO files are improperly rendered in MSO. So, apparently, the 'standard' really doesn't mean anything because that's not really what Microsoft is doing. Yes, that's the issue. I don't know about the binary formats, but I've read that Microsoft does not actually *follow* OOXML. (This, if true, means, ironically, that there is no program with complete, 100%, OOXML support.) Maybe it was just a hoax, but I doubt it. After all, it's Microsoft. With Microsoft stardards, either someone steps forward and spends their time working out how to convert between MS formats and ODF, which will take a *lot* of time (and will not address the implementation deviations), or people flag issues and devs will address compatibility issue by issue. So, people with compatiblity issues, please report these issues. -- Nuno J. Silva (aka njsg) gopher://sdf-eu.org/1/users/njsg -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
Hi :) Yes, but it's very rare for a program to be 100% perfect. Thigns tend to be reasonably close but just not close enough sometimes. Of course with proprietary stuff it is usually difficult to get any bugs fixed but with OpenSource it's possible for 'anyone' to fix a bug. There are a lot of bug-reports about specific problems with MS formats and the list is getting worked through. Usually the older formats (without the X at the end, eg doc rather than docx) work better because there has been longer to fix the bugs. LibreOffice doesn't completely conform to ODF standards either but it is trying to get closer. Regards from Tom :) --- On Sun, 11/9/11, Anthony Papillion anth...@cryptofreaks.tk wrote: From: Anthony Papillion anth...@cryptofreaks.tk Subject: RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats? To: LibreOffice Mailing List users@global.libreoffice.org Date: Sunday, 11 September, 2011, 21:41 Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 21:33:09 +0100 From: tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk Hi :) MS don't implement their standard in the way that they wrote they would. Having set a standard anyone that follows that standard is guaranteed to produce things that are a little wonky when opened in MS Office. LO devs work at getting LO's implementation as wonky as MS's but the wonkiness is the unknown factor. Hi Tom, Ok, I can accept that. But then, aren't we back to a 'secret format'? If I implement a standard to write out a file a certain way and do it in another way that isn't documented then I'm not following the standard and, thus, my filetype is secret. The only way it's *not* secret is if they file is written to the standard without any deviations. At first, I thought 'ok, so this means MS has published a standard that other vendors can write to and MS will has implemented that standard (in addition to their secret one) so that MSO can always properly read other vendor created MSO files. But that's not the case. There are times, it seems, when LibO files are improperly rendered in MSO. So, apparently, the 'standard' really doesn't mean anything because that's not really what Microsoft is doing. Anthony -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
On 09/11/2011 11:06 AM, Spencer Graves wrote: Another example: 1. Download http://www.cagreens.org/sclara/resources/flyers/noCreditCd-bookmark20110306.odt;. 2. Open in LibreOffice 3.4.3. Save as MS Word 97 *.doc format. 3. Close, then reopen the *.doc version: When I did this now under Windows 7, this changed the widths of the columns had changed and with it the column breaks, etc. I checked Format - Page - Columns: *.odt showed from Autowidth with columns = 1.42, space = 0.70; *.doc had columns = 2.13, space = 0.70. The numbers do not make sense to me, but the visual change is clear. I noticed this problem with an earlier version of LibreOffice 3.4 and I think also with Open Office 3.3. ... I tested as per the above, and indeed LO does save the .doc with modified column widths. I tested by saveas in LO 3.3.3 and then opened the .doc with: LO 3.3.3 (linux) LO 3.4.3 (linux) OOo 3.2.1 (go-oo build - Ubuntu linux) OOo 3.2.0 (Windows) MSO Word97 (yes I have MSO97 on an VirtuaBox Win2K install) The worst/more serious issue is that in MSO Word97 blank second column is inserted/shown. This means that the document renders only 3 populated columns rather than 4. Screenshot is here: http://imageshack.us/f/841/screenshotwin2kprorunni.png/ So, you've a valid bug to report. Check to see if one hasn't already been filed before filing yours. Start a new thread regarding the problem when you've done that and I'll be glad to contribute/add to the bug report with my tests/screenshots. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
On 9/11/2011 2:52 PM, Tom Davies wrote: Hi :) Yes, but it's very rare for a program to be 100% perfect. Thigns tend to be reasonably close but just not close enough sometimes. Software is subject to a behavioral equivalent to Gödel's theorem in mathematics in that it is humanly impossible to prove that software has no bugs. As far as I know, the closest we can come is to have unit tests with 100 percent coverage of all the options. Even that, however, is not enough, because there are always ambiguities in the documentation, etc., which create opportunities for bugs. Of course with proprietary stuff it is usually difficult to get any bugs fixed but with OpenSource it's possible for 'anyone' to fix a bug. Anyone can submit a bug report. I just provided privately reproducible examples of two problems to Dennis Hamilton, who requested them. (Thanks, Dennis. I did not see a place for bug reports on libreoffice.org, but I also didn't look too hard.) With open source, anyone can download the source code. Of course, reading the code and tracing a bug to its source requires some knowledge of how to do that. In theory, however, anyone can do that and offer bug fixes to the core development team. I've done that with R (www.r-project.org) but not LibreOffice, some of which they've accepted and some they haven't. Spencer There are a lot of bug-reports about specific problems with MS formats and the list is getting worked through. Usually the older formats (without the X at the end, eg doc rather than docx) work better because there has been longer to fix the bugs. LibreOffice doesn't completely conform to ODF standards either but it is trying to get closer. Regards from Tom :) --- On Sun, 11/9/11, Anthony Papillionanth...@cryptofreaks.tk wrote: From: Anthony Papillionanth...@cryptofreaks.tk Subject: RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats? To: LibreOffice Mailing Listusers@global.libreoffice.org Date: Sunday, 11 September, 2011, 21:41 Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 21:33:09 +0100 From: tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk Hi :) MS don't implement their standard in the way that they wrote they would. Having set a standard anyone that follows that standard is guaranteed to produce things that are a little wonky when opened in MS Office. LO devs work at getting LO's implementation as wonky as MS's but the wonkiness is the unknown factor. Hi Tom, Ok, I can accept that. But then, aren't we back to a 'secret format'? If I implement a standard to write out a file a certain way and do it in another way that isn't documented then I'm not following the standard and, thus, my filetype is secret. The only way it's *not* secret is if they file is written to the standard without any deviations. At first, I thought 'ok, so this means MS has published a standard that other vendors can write to and MS will has implemented that standard (in addition to their secret one) so that MSO can always properly read other vendor created MSO files. But that's not the case. There are times, it seems, when LibO files are improperly rendered in MSO. So, apparently, the 'standard' really doesn't mean anything because that's not really what Microsoft is doing. Anthony -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
NoOp Dennis: What is the standard bug reporting procedure for LibreOffice? I looked at libreoffice.org and didn't find anything, but I didn't look too hard. DENNIS: NoOp tested one of the problems I reported; see below. NoOp: I submitted reproducible examples of two problems to Dennis. Thanks very much for your support of LibreOffice. Spencer On 9/11/2011 3:09 PM, NoOp wrote: On 09/11/2011 11:06 AM, Spencer Graves wrote: Another example: 1. Download http://www.cagreens.org/sclara/resources/flyers/noCreditCd-bookmark20110306.odt;. 2. Open in LibreOffice 3.4.3. Save as MS Word 97 *.doc format. 3. Close, then reopen the *.doc version: When I did this now under Windows 7, this changed the widths of the columns had changed and with it the column breaks, etc. I checked Format - Page - Columns: *.odt showed from Autowidth with columns = 1.42, space = 0.70; *.doc had columns = 2.13, space = 0.70. The numbers do not make sense to me, but the visual change is clear. I noticed this problem with an earlier version of LibreOffice 3.4 and I think also with Open Office 3.3. ... I tested as per the above, and indeed LO does save the .doc with modified column widths. I tested by saveas in LO 3.3.3 and then opened the .doc with: LO 3.3.3 (linux) LO 3.4.3 (linux) OOo 3.2.1 (go-oo build - Ubuntu linux) OOo 3.2.0 (Windows) MSO Word97 (yes I have MSO97 on an VirtuaBox Win2K install) The worst/more serious issue is that in MSO Word97 blank second column is inserted/shown. This means that the document renders only 3 populated columns rather than 4. Screenshot is here: http://imageshack.us/f/841/screenshotwin2kprorunni.png/ So, you've a valid bug to report. Check to see if one hasn't already been filed before filing yours. Start a new thread regarding the problem when you've done that and I'll be glad to contribute/add to the bug report with my tests/screenshots. -- Spencer Graves, PE, PhD President and Chief Technology Officer Structure Inspection and Monitoring, Inc. 751 Emerson Ct. San José, CA 95126 ph: 408-655-4567 web: www.structuremonitoring.com -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
Hi On Sun, 2011-09-11 at 14:32 -0400, Don Myers wrote: This is a general replay to Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats? illustrating my personal situation, and why my answer is *yes*. I moved from Microsoft Office Professional to Word Perfect Office Professional probably 12 to 13 years ago. The reason for the professional versions is that I needed a database as well as an office suite. When Open Office first came out, I moved to it, starting with version .9 something. I needed to keep Paradox as my database at that time. Once Base became available with Open Office, I was able to move to Base and drop proprietary software for an office suite completely. Once I had everything in Open Office, I had one major step forward for someday moving to Linux instead of Windows. I made that transition 2 1/2 years ago. I get many attachments from co-workers and other organizations that are sent in Microsoft format. Most of these documents are relatively simple. I've not had anyone send me anything in docx format I couldn't read. Generally I will need to adjust margins, or something like that. I'm 97% Windows free. I only use it for video editing and for a forms program which will not work with Wine in Linux. Most of the people who send me these attachments are using what they are required to use, which is Microsoft. If I could not be somewhat compatible with them, Open Office or LibreOffice now, would be of no value to me at all. If we could get back to the big push of several years for governments to adopt odf standards for all of their documents, we would all be a lot better off. But that push would never work if there wasn't some backward compatibility for the former Microsoft users to be able to open previous documents. Don -- *** * How many e-documents are essentially lost because no one converted them from their original format to another and now almost no one has a program that can read the original files. Having backward compatibility is important. LO does support many older formats. -- Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
On 09/11/2011 04:02 PM, Tom Davies wrote: Hi :) There is a guide here http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/BugReport This is mostly guidance rather than rules as each case might be different. If you can't include all the info required initially then it can always be added in later if needed. Regards from Tom :) You know the link. However it's not easy to find from the standard LO webpage (see my post in response to Spencer's question. How did you find it BTW? Why isn't it easy to find? I know it's been discussed on this list before wonder why it's so hard to find. I suppose it's better discussed on the website list as for why. But better discussed here as to why not? ... -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
