Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Virgil Arrington]

Jonathon,

Thank you so much for all your information. It is obvious that I have a 
bundle to learn about all of this.

Since asking your thoughts about markdown text files, I discovered a 
screen reader provided with my Linux Mint 18. I've been playing with it 
with various file formats. So far, it seems to like plain Markdown and 
the HTML files it produces (at least for the simple text files I've 
created -- i.e., no tables, graphics, etc.) Whether in Markdown source 
text or the resulting HTML, it recognizes the heading levels. However, 
it reads right over other tags, such as **boldface** without 
interpretation. It even ignores quotation marks (which I had "smartened" 
with Smartypants, which could be a problem for a blind person not able 
to discern what are my words or the words of someone I'm quoting.) I've 
also found that if I load anything *but* a Markdown file into my Geany 
text editor, the screen reader tells me that the file doesn't have a 
Markdown file type and refuses to read it.

The screen reader that comes with Mint is Orca and I am truly just 
starting to learn it. For example, while writing this email, I took a 
break to search for Orca preferences and just literally found out how to 
access them through the terminal. So, I'm less than a noob on a11y tools 
(I also just learned what a11y means.)

I obviously have never had a vision impaired student in any of my 
college courses, so these issues have never arisen. However, I have used 
various resources for my work. For example, for slide presentations, I 
have used LO Impress, LaTeX (Beamer class) and AsciiDoc's Slidy backend. 
Impress has its native ODF file format, LaTeX produces a PDF and 
AsciiDoc Slidy produces an HTML presentation. In addition to showing the 
presentations during class, I provide my students with the files so they 
can read them in their own studies. Over this summer, I will experiment 
to see how well each file format works with the Orca reader.

I also give a lot of essay style assignments where I create a document 
with the questions, email the file to my students and have them fill in 
the answers and email the completed assignment back to me. So far, as I 
mentioned in my original post on this thread, I have used LO to create 
the document and then I have shared it with my students as an MS Word 
DOC format as most of them use Word, which is provided to them free as 
students. It has worked well, but I never considered visual a11y concerns.

Tanstaafl has suggested fillable PDF files, but so far, I haven't gotten 
Orca to read any PDF file I've created (fillable or not), whether 
created through LO or LaTeX. I'm sure the problem is my infantile 
understanding of the tools, so I'll keep learning.

In the meantime, I am toying with the thought of using plain text for my 
take home assignments, either with or without Markdown tags (although 
Orca reads my plain Markdown heading tags (#, ##, etc.) very well). As I 
think about it, my take home assignments don't *need* any formatting as 
they're not intended to be printed out. They are, in fact, just plain text.

Thank you again for all your information and help. You've introduced me 
to a whole new world I had never considered, perhaps because, being 
fairly well sighted, I never thought much about the difficulties facing 
the visually impaired.

I'm reminded of the courthouse where I worked in my lawyering days. It 
was constructed in the 1970s when split-level construction was all the 
rage. It was built on four levels and the only way to access each level 
was through short flights of stairs (about 10 steps each). The 
architects obviously had working legs for nobody ever thought how a 
wheelchair bound litigant was supposed to get to the courtroom on the 
fourth level, or the clerk's office on the third level, or the restrooms 
on the first level, not to mention the main entrance on the second 
level. It was all idiotic.

Virgil




On 05/08/2018 03:24 AM, toki wrote:
> On 05/02/2018 01:08 PM, Virgil Arrington wrote:
>
>> Do you have any information/opinion about various forms of markdown files 
>> (i.e. Markdown, RestructureText, AsciiDoc).
> What happens when a screen reader meets markup language depends upon:
> # The program used to open the document;
> ** Some programs display raw markup;
> ** Some programs display the presentation;
> ** Some programs display both the markup, and the presentation;
>
> # The specific screen reader;
> ** A screen reader I used to use, intercepted  keyboard commands
> (^1);
> ** Strings within a file are occasionally treated as keyboard commands.
> Whilst this is usually a bug, it can be both extremely annoying, and
> even more difficult to track down;
>
> # How "Reading Punctuation" in the screen reader is configured;
> ** Typically, one can choose between none/some/most/all. My guess is
> that most "experienced" screen reader users, set that to either "none",
> or "some"(^2). Setting it to "all" can be extremely 

Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[toki]

On 05/02/2018 01:08 PM, Virgil Arrington wrote:

> Do you have any information/opinion about various forms of markdown files 
> (i.e. Markdown, RestructureText, AsciiDoc).

What happens when a screen reader meets markup language depends upon:
# The program used to open the document;
** Some programs display raw markup;
** Some programs display the presentation;
** Some programs display both the markup, and the presentation;

# The specific screen reader;
** A screen reader I used to use, intercepted  keyboard commands
(^1);
** Strings within a file are occasionally treated as keyboard commands.
Whilst this is usually a bug, it can be both extremely annoying, and
even more difficult to track down;

# How "Reading Punctuation" in the screen reader is configured;
** Typically, one can choose between none/some/most/all. My guess is
that most "experienced" screen reader users, set that to either "none",
or "some"(^2). Setting it to "all" can be extremely irritating to listen
to.

# The operating system being used;
** Operating systems intercept keyboard commands before either the
screen reader, or the program can.  Once upon a time, I had a screen
reader that used  to open either an extension, or an external
program. I don't remember which it was supposed to, but the inevitable
result was the program I was using, was closed. That same program had a
bug, that threw certain strings it read, straight to the OS, as if they
were keyboard commands;


I'd avoid anything that uses HTML markup tags. (^4)

The only suggestion I can make, in terms of markup files, is to
experiment with the a11y tools you have available. Some, probably most
colleges and universities in the US, have a person in the IT department,
whose primary function is to check a11y compliance. As oft as not, these
individuals are willing to do limited testing of material for local
school teachers.  (This is not an official part of their job. They do
it, because it is both good PR, and acts as an early warning system for
"unusual" disabilities (^5) that the college will have to accommodate.)

>Would a screen reader get tripped up by the various formatting tags (* A 
>Bulleted item; _italics_, *boldface*)?

Maybe. Maybe not.
If a Braille Display Monitor is used in conjunction with the screen
reader, then anything is possible. (^3)

Where most people fail, is in creating tables that make sense, when
using a Braille Display Monitor. In general, it is much easier to
rewrite the table, as a series of sentences, than to format it, so that
it makes sense when reading it in a Braille Display Monitor.


^1: Braille Display Monitors will frequently change  to ⠳.

^2: This is why punctuation of blind, and deaf-blind people can be
"strange".  They accidentally type ">", instead of ".", and because
punctuation is turned off, they don't realize that they made an error.

^3: In theory, Braille Display Monitors display the glyph as its comes
in, with no alterations, or modifications. Whilst the practice is
usually the same, I've come across a few monitors that have switches for
either "raw mode" or "translated mode", and if the latter is selected,
then an option to translate everything into either Grade 1, Grade 2, or
Grade 3.0 Braille, regardless of what is input.

Testing Braille Display Monitor compatibility is an extremely expensive
proposition. Cheap monitors run US$50.00 per cell. A good Braille
Display Monitor runs around US$100 per cell.

^4:  The major problem with HTML, is that most software that claims to
utilize it, has a broken implementation. Whilst brokenness such as
  within the text --- not markup --- causing
the entire background to be black, is no longer common, there are enough
other oddities, that there is a divergence between the desired effect,
and what the viewer sees.

^5: By way of example, deaf, blind, and is confined to a wheelchair.
Things that make life easy for one group of individuals can make life
impossible for a different group.  Things can become extremely
complicated when an individual is a member of both of those groups.

jonathon

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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Tanstaafl]

On Wed May 02 2018 08:07:54 GMT-0400 (Eastern Standard Time), toki
 wrote:
> On 05/01/2018 07:19 PM, Dave Howorth wrote:
>>> IOW, fill-able PDF is an extremely bad idea.
> 
>> What's the 'approved' solution?

> In order of accessibility:
> 
> * Plain text;
> * MS Doc;
> * MS Docx;
> * RTF;
> * ODT;

What is that old saying about opinions?

Again, (properly constructed) fillable PDF forms is the only way to go.

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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Roy Reese]

> On 05/04/2018 01:16 PM, Virgil Arrington  wrote:
> >
> I'm finding all of this fascinating. In the past couple days, I have 
> also discovered the screen reader that came with my Linux Mint 18. I've 
> been playing with it on various file formats. I created an HTML with 
> AsciiDoc, and it read it quite nicely. It also read an .ODT file without 
> difficulty. For some reason, it would read a .TXT file opened in LO, but 
> not in Geany, and, it didn't read PDFs created with either LO or LyX. 
> Now, these were quick and dirty tests without any tweaking of the files 
> or any settings, so these experiences are not at all the final word. I'm 
> sure I can make everything work properly as I learn more, but this does 
> indicate that some methods will require more work than others.
> 
I am not using Gleany, but check the encoding used by LO and Gleany as there 
are different ways to encode a txt file. The more common encoding schemes are 
variants of UTF-8 and ISO-8859. For LO you can show the encoding by going to 
Save As... and check Edit filter settings. In Gleany there should be some sort 
of drop-down menu to select the encoding you want.

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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Virgil Arrington]

On 05/03/2018 01:16 PM, Tanstaafl wrote:
> On Thu May 03 2018 12:14:44 GMT-0400 (Eastern Standard Time), Virgil
> Arrington  wrote:
>> For anyone interested in this topic (accessibility of PDF documents for
>> those relying on screen readers),
> Ok, my last word on the subject...
>
> Regardless, providing an INACCESSIBLE PDF form to the 99.99% of the
> people who can fill them out without issues, and providing an
> ALTERNATIVE for those who cannot, would completely circumvent and render
> moot any potential legal issues.
>
> People who seek to violate MY Rights to do whatever I ant in my personal
> and business dealings - meaning, yes, I have the absolute Right to NOT
> provide accessible ANYTHING to ANYONE.
>
> Handicapped people (or whatever is the PC term of the day now for people
> who have 'accessibility' needs) have the Right to find someone who can
> or will provide services they can access.
>
> Sorry, but Freedom ain't Free.
>
Wow, I guess I touched a nerve, which certainly wasn't my intent. I was 
just trying to share a document from the creators of the PDF format that 
explains how to make PDF forms accessible to the visually impaired.

You may be right -- depending on your profession -- that you have the 
"absolute Right to NOT provide accessible ANYTHING to ANYONE." However, 
as a teacher, I have an obligation under U.S. Federal law to make 
"reasonable accommodations" for my visually impaired students. I don't 
have the option of telling them to find a teacher or a college that will 
provide services they can access. Of course, if I did tell them to look 
elsewhere, my students would exercise their rights under the ADA to sue 
the school and me, and they would prevail which would cost me and my 
college oodles of bucks. So, you're right, "Freedom ain't Free."

However, all this talk about freedoms, rights, laws, and lawsuits misses 
the point. I'm a teacher, and I *want* my students to learn. This means 
if I have a visually impaired student, I *want* that student to have 
access to my written documents. I don't need a law to impose that desire 
on me. I don't need the threat of a lawsuit to motivate me to do the 
best for my students.

Since I have never had visually impaired students in the past, this 
issue has never before arisen for me, which is why I was at first 
surprised to read Jonathon's non-legal (but helpful) advice. Since 
reading his post, I have been digging deeper and learning more. As I 
stated before, this issue isn't limited to PDF files although they have 
their own set of unique challenges.

Many of the suggestions about making documents accessible apply to all 
file formats and simply involve good document design. For example, 
suggestions include making proper headers that can link to a table of 
contents. This requires using Heading styles rather than just bolding a 
few words and calling it a heading. Adobe also suggests creating a table 
of contents and putting cross-reference bookmarks throughout the 
document to make it more easily navigable. These suggestions force a 
user to learn how to properly format a document, rather than following 
the old typewriter model of helter skelter direct formatting.

I'm finding all of this fascinating. In the past couple days, I have 
also discovered the screen reader that came with my Linux Mint 18. I've 
been playing with it on various file formats. I created an HTML with 
AsciiDoc, and it read it quite nicely. It also read an .ODT file without 
difficulty. For some reason, it would read a .TXT file opened in LO, but 
not in Geany, and, it didn't read PDFs created with either LO or LyX. 
Now, these were quick and dirty tests without any tweaking of the files 
or any settings, so these experiences are not at all the final word. I'm 
sure I can make everything work properly as I learn more, but this does 
indicate that some methods will require more work than others.

Virgil

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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Tim-L]

Tanstaafl:

The newer word for "Handicapped" is "*Differently Able*".

I deal with, and a charter member, of the Kiwanis organization called 
Aktion Club of Elmira.


http://aktionclub-elmira.org/

Every member is an Adult who has a physical or mental issue that some 
would use the older word "disabled" or *Differently Able*. I myself have 
had 3 strokes and a set of physical injuries that gave me 100% for 
Social Security Disability. The "handicapped parking" sign is now called 
"Accessible Parking". That "differently able" life category does not 
mean I cannot do nothing, but I do a lot of things differently 
sometimes. I lost a lot of programming skills [mostly mainframe 
languages] with the strokes, but I am not giving up on relearning some 
of these.


° ° ° ° ° ° ° ° ° ° ° ° ° ° °

"People who seek to violate MY Rights"

Yes you have the right to not give up your intellectual property away 
for free.


Yes, we need to have a good way to create a fill in PDF form to be saved 
and sent to someone else.  This is what the US Tax editable PDF fill in 
form does.


There is a option in the "export as" > PDF that is called "Create PDF 
Form".  Can there be a link to making a "Form", like for a data base 
input or data entry form? If you create a form and then save it. Then 
export to PDF and use the Create PDF form option and choose the file 
format of PDF.  I have never tried this, but within the help system.


I found the "create editable PDF form" in the Help > "LibreOffice help" 
system.



On 05/03/2018 01:16 PM, Tanstaafl wrote:

On Thu May 03 2018 12:14:44 GMT-0400 (Eastern Standard Time), Virgil
Arrington  wrote:

For anyone interested in this topic (accessibility of PDF documents for
those relying on screen readers),

Ok, my last word on the subject...

Regardless, providing an INACCESSIBLE PDF form to the 99.99% of the
people who can fill them out without issues, and providing an
ALTERNATIVE for those who cannot, would completely circumvent and render
moot any potential legal issues.

People who seek to violate MY Rights to do whatever I ant in my personal
and business dealings - meaning, yes, I have the absolute Right to NOT
provide accessible ANYTHING to ANYONE.

Handicapped people (or whatever is the PC term of the day now for people
who have 'accessibility' needs) have the Right to find someone who can
or will provide services they can access.

Sorry, but Freedom ain't Free.





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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
+1
I totally agree.  Being able to access an alternative is almost always good
imo/ime.

Different use-cases often require slightly different tools or a
jack-of-all-trades.  MSO tries to be jack-of-all-trades but ends up being
such a horribly bloated mess that it significantly slows things down quite
a bit.  I prefer the FOSS idea of finding a good-enough tool for the job
and then gradually finding better and better ones if i specialise.

Ironically your last sentence explains the difference between "free" as
used in FOSS compared to bargain basement deals - but without much of the
cultishness.  (a fine band btw)

Regards from
a Tom :)







On 3 May 2018 at 17:16, Tanstaafl  wrote:

> On Thu May 03 2018 12:14:44 GMT-0400 (Eastern Standard Time), Virgil
> Arrington  wrote:
> > For anyone interested in this topic (accessibility of PDF documents for
> > those relying on screen readers),
>
> Ok, my last word on the subject...
>
> Regardless, providing an INACCESSIBLE PDF form to the 99.99% of the
> people who can fill them out without issues, and providing an
> ALTERNATIVE for those who cannot, would completely circumvent and render
> moot any potential legal issues.
>
> People who seek to violate MY Rights to do whatever I ant in my personal
> and business dealings - meaning, yes, I have the absolute Right to NOT
> provide accessible ANYTHING to ANYONE.
>
> Handicapped people (or whatever is the PC term of the day now for people
> who have 'accessibility' needs) have the Right to find someone who can
> or will provide services they can access.
>
> Sorry, but Freedom ain't Free.
>
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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Tanstaafl]

Hi tom,

Please don't send direct to me, I'm on the list, and when you do I get
two emails. Just send to the list. thanks...

On Thu May 03 2018 14:30:24 GMT-0400 (Eastern Standard Time), Tom Davies
 wrote:
> The fact that Pdfs are somewhat editable by quite a few programs now but
> only properly editable by Adobe's expensive Pdf editor doesn't mean that
> the format is meant to be editable.  It's a square peg in a round hole.

I'm not sure what your point is. We aren't talking about editing PDFs,
we're talking about PDF fillable forms... two entirely different things.

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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
Google do seem to be a bit evil and unsupportive sometimes.  Oddly they
were on the Advisory Board for TDF when they removed ODF support for their
products!  - or sometime around then.  Apple were based on BSD, a
brother/sister to Gnu, but went off in a proprietary/secretive
direction.  "Google Summer of Code" and many of their other things are
great but they definitely tend to do odd things at others.
Regards from
a Tom :)



On 30 April 2018 at 21:37, Felmon Davis  wrote:

> On Mon, 30 Apr 2018, Virgil Arrington wrote:
>
> On 04/30/2018 11:11 AM, James Knott wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Recent versions of MS Office are supposed to be able to work with Open
>>> Document files.  Have you tried to see what happens when you use it with
>>> ODF files?
>>>
>>> Thank you for the suggestion. My personal computer is Linux only, but
>> I'll check it out on the school's computers to see how well MSO reads
>> and writes to .odt. I don't even know what version of MSO the school uses.
>>
>
> I shall have to check also. I'll send to some students as guinea pigs.
>
> one thing I've observed is that in spite of being a (partly) Linux
> company, google-drive does not treat .odt files kindly: it seems to list
> the unzipped contents instead of showing properly formatted text.
>
> the school uses google-apps for education, specially designed for use in
> schools (more privacy, closed environment).
>
> f.
>
> --
> Felmon Davis
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
I like your ideas a lot.  :)))

Sadly not everyone is allowed to or able to install programs on the
machiens they use.  It might be effortless for them on a home machine or
their own laptop, if they have one, but schools and other establishments
block people from using computers safely and force them to use unsafe but
'approved' systems instead.  For me a classic was a public library where
"Notepad" was blocked but MS Word was infected.

There have been various work-arounds, such as installing programs to a
Cloud or Virtual Machine or LiveCd/Usb or portable apps;
https://www.howtogeek.com/290358/what-is-a-portable-app-and-why-does-it-matter/
http://www.winpenpack.com/en/index.php
https://portableapps.com/
but people using MS stuff a lot are very scared of letting people do
anything useful because they think that is where malware, security attacks
and big problems come from.  Ironically when anyone gives any of the
alternatives a fair go they quickly become seen as an untrustable geek
trying to lead people astray.

I definitely like the idea of using a standard signature quietly letting
people know i use an alternative.
Thanks and regards from
a Tom :)




On 30 April 2018 at 18:05, Roy Reese <waterbeare...@gmx.com> wrote:

> > Enviar: lunes 30 de abril de 2018 a las 17:11
> > De: "James Knott" <james.kn...@jknott.net>
> > Para: users@global.libreoffice.org
> > Asunto: Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux
> Users Group [Facebook]?
> >
> > On 04/30/2018 08:32 AM, Virgil Arrington wrote:
> > > Today, I will be drafting the final exam for my students. I will use
> LO
> > > Writer for the task. I will then email it to my students and they will
> > > type their answers right onto the computer file and email it back to
> me.
> > > I need to get the file to my students in a format they can easily use
> > > with their computers. I will use .DOC for this purpose because it's
> the
> > > easiest solution to this situation.
> >
> > Recent versions of MS Office are supposed to be able to work with Open
> > Document files.  Have you tried to see what happens when you use it with
> > ODF files?
> >
> > --
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> >
> That is exactly right, no student today should have a problem reading an
> odt file with MS Office as odt support has been incorporated in MSO since
> 2007 when MSO also defaulted to the docx format as a result of criticism of
> its closed formats.
>
> Having been sickened early on by the "advertising" coming from Apple,
> Samsung and others, the "signature" of my business mail notes that it was
> produced using Linux and open-source applications. (If I am forced to use a
> mobile, it notes that K-9 Mail is the FOSS source.) One should be making
> every effort to promote open source and letting the world know that there
> alternatives to the commercial applications that try to hold us captive.
>
> In the case of students, I would go a step further with a footnote:
>
> *The attached file was produced by LibreOffice, a powerful Free and
> Open-Source Software (FOSS) office suite and saved in the Open Document
> Format. To learn more about FOSS, click here. To learn more about
> LibreOffice and download it for free, click here.
>
> The FOSS link might be to this: https://www.gnu.org/
> philosophy/free-sw.html. Of course a link could also be provided to a
> Wikipedia or other page about ODF.
>
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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
Easy tiger!  I know it must be frustrating that so many of us are so slow
and lacking in knowledge about these things but it seems like some of us
are getting somewhere, or at least catching-up.

Btw obviously PDF is editable to some degree or other by quite a few
programs these days.  LibreOffice is able to edit some of it.  There is
also a "Hybrid Pdf" which looks like it's only a Pdf until opened with
LibreOffice - LO gives a choice of opening the Odf contained inside the
Pdf.

However the main reason that proper Pdf Editors, such as Adobe's, are in
any demand at all is due to the failures of MS Office's constantly
inconsistent and unreliable formats plus the failure of any other program
to effectively compete with MSO.  I'm not sure why WordPerfect weren't able
to stay as number one but my guess would be some dodgy dealings somewhere.

Also it seems that people want their word-processor to produce output like
a Desktop Publisher.  MS's Publisher program is sufficiently complex that
it puts people off daring to try any of their competitors.  Scribus is
wy outside their comfort-zone.  Oddly when Writer was first being
created, before the days of OpenOffice, it was largely being built as a
Desktop Publishing program - although it's devs couldn't entirely agree
what to make it so it ended up mostly being a word-processor.  So, that is
one of the reasons why documents created by LibreOffice tend to look so
much less scrappy than ones made by MSO.

The fact that Pdfs are somewhat editable by quite a few programs now but
only properly editable by Adobe's expensive Pdf editor doesn't mean that
the format is meant to be editable.  It's a square peg in a round hole.

Regards from
a Tom :)









On 2 May 2018 at 14:58, Tanstaafl  wrote:

> On Tue May 01 2018 14:06:17 GMT-0400 (Eastern Standard Time), toki
>  wrote:
> > On 04/30/2018 09:53 PM, Virgil Arrington wrote:
> >> That was my thinking as well, which is why I'm intrigued by the
> >> possibility of doing it directly within LO.
>
> > Is it worth US$5,000 plus court costs plus attorney fees, to do
> > something that is a known Section 508/ADA violation?
>
> Probably not, but this is irrelevant, since it is entirely possible to
> create a PDF Fillable Form that isn't in violation of anything.
>
> http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=screen+reader+friendly+fillable+PDF+forms
>
> > I am not a lawyer.
> > This is not legal advice.
>
> So, maybe you shouldn't make such loud, arrogant pronouncements,
> especially without having all of the facts.
>
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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Tanstaafl]

On Thu May 03 2018 12:14:44 GMT-0400 (Eastern Standard Time), Virgil
Arrington  wrote:
> For anyone interested in this topic (accessibility of PDF documents for 
> those relying on screen readers),

Ok, my last word on the subject...

Regardless, providing an INACCESSIBLE PDF form to the 99.99% of the
people who can fill them out without issues, and providing an
ALTERNATIVE for those who cannot, would completely circumvent and render
moot any potential legal issues.

People who seek to violate MY Rights to do whatever I ant in my personal
and business dealings - meaning, yes, I have the absolute Right to NOT
provide accessible ANYTHING to ANYONE.

Handicapped people (or whatever is the PC term of the day now for people
who have 'accessibility' needs) have the Right to find someone who can
or will provide services they can access.

Sorry, but Freedom ain't Free.

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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Virgil Arrington]

For anyone interested in this topic (accessibility of PDF documents for 
those relying on screen readers), below is a link to a document prepared 
by Adobe addressing the many issues document designers need to consider 
when creating a PDF file.

https://www.adobe.com/content/dam/acom/en/accessibility/pdfs/accessing-pdf-sr.pdf

There is apparently a lot to consider. To be fair, this isn't limited to 
PDF files, although they seem to have unique problems not shared by 
other formats.

This has been a very educational few days for me.

Virgil

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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Tanstaafl]

On Wed May 02 2018 16:31:08 GMT-0400 (Eastern Standard Time), Tanstaafl
 wrote:
> On Wed May 02 2018 16:04:41 GMT-0400 (Eastern Standard Time), Virgil
> Arrington  wrote:
>> I will have to weigh the effort it takes to create accessible documents 
>> in whatever file format I use.
> 
> For PF forms, it is one (or two?) checkboxes when exporting the document.

Of course I meant PDF forms...

> I suspect he may be one of the FSF nuts who reject PDF because it isn't
> a 'free' file format - but I could be wrong (in which case I apologize).

By free, I mean free in a form acceptable to the FSF, which has a very
different meaning of free from what  mos people think of. I understand
their arguments, but they can be - well, the words 'zealot' and even
'cultish' come to mind.

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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Tanstaafl]

On Wed May 02 2018 16:04:41 GMT-0400 (Eastern Standard Time), Virgil
Arrington  wrote:
> I will have to weigh the effort it takes to create accessible documents 
> in whatever file format I use.

For PF forms, it is one (or two?) checkboxes when exporting the document.

> I didn't find his pronouncements to be loud or arrogant, but rather
> to contain useful information that has led me to other useful
> information, just as I found the same with your original suggestion.

Well, I disagree.

Useful information? Personally, I don't find MIS-information all that
useful.

He absolutely slammed the door on PDF forms based on false and/or
mis-leading information. By loud/arrogant I mean he didn't even allow
for the possibility he may be wrong, and obviously didn't bother
checking his (false) claims before pronouncing them to the world,
thereby possibly precluding people (like yourself) from utilizing a
fabulous tool.

I suspect he may be one of the FSF nuts who reject PDF because it isn't
a 'free' file format - but I could be wrong (in which case I apologize).

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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Virgil Arrington]

On 05/02/2018 10:58 AM, Tanstaafl wrote:
> On Tue May 01 2018 14:06:17 GMT-0400 (Eastern Standard Time), toki
>  wrote:
>> On 04/30/2018 09:53 PM, Virgil Arrington wrote:
>>> That was my thinking as well, which is why I'm intrigued by the
>>> possibility of doing it directly within LO.
>> Is it worth US$5,000 plus court costs plus attorney fees, to do
>> something that is a known Section 508/ADA violation?
> Probably not, but this is irrelevant, since it is entirely possible to
> create a PDF Fillable Form that isn't in violation of anything.
>
> http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=screen+reader+friendly+fillable+PDF+forms
>
>> I am not a lawyer.
>> This is not legal advice.
> So, maybe you shouldn't make such loud, arrogant pronouncements,
> especially without having all of the facts.
>

I found your suggestion to use fillable PDF forms intriguing and 
certainly something I will consider in future, more appropriate, 
situations. I also found Jonathon's legal concerns to be very helpful. I 
want to make sure that the resources I create are fully accessible, and 
I will have to weigh the effort it takes to create accessible documents 
in whatever file format I use. I didn't find his pronouncements to be 
loud or arrogant, but rather to contain useful information that has led 
me to other useful information, just as I found the same with your 
original suggestion.

Virgil

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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Tim-L]

On 04/30/2018 05:22 PM, Virgil Arrington wrote:

On 04/30/2018 11:11 AM, James Knott wrote:

Recent versions of MS Office are supposed to be able to work with Open
Document files.  Have you tried to see what happens when you use it with
ODF files?


Thank you for the suggestion. My personal computer is Linux only, but
I'll check it out on the school's computers to see how well MSO reads
and writes to .odt. I don't even know what version of MSO the school uses.

Virgil
The last time I worked for a school, it was before 2005, so there was 
not LibreOffice. I do know many families cannot afford to buy, or rent, 
MSO and all of its upgrades as the school upgrades. I use to live next 
to a family who's adults will not let the students use the only computer 
in the household.  Now it seems that every writing assignments taken 
home required to be "typed" and no longer hand written. So from the 
start, we no longer have the students get use to hand written work, so 
their written documents are readable.  The built in spell checker makes 
the need to learn how to spell words anymore.





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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Paul D. Mirowsky]

HTML should good for screen readers.

See: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Accessibility/ARIA for 
how to use it.


Although Writer have abilities...



  Support assistive technology tools (program restart required)

Allows you to use assistive tools, such as external screen readers, 
Braille devices or speech recognition input devices. The Java Runtime 
Environment must be installed on your computer before you can enable 
assistive support.



https://help.libreoffice.org/Common/Accessibility

It is not clear to me how well HTML export works

See: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Accessibility/ARIA for 
how to use it.


Sorry if I've duplicated, but this is long list of e-mails.



On 5/2/2018 9:08 AM, Virgil Arrington wrote:

On 05/02/2018 08:07 AM, toki wrote:

In order of accessibility:
* Plain text;
* MS Doc;
* MS Docx;
* RTF;
* ODT;


jonathon


Interesting list. I've always liked working with plain text files.

Do you have any information/opinion about various forms of markdown
files (i.e. Markdown, RestructureText, AsciiDoc).

This semester, I played with making slide presentations using AsciiDoc
and its "slidy" backend.

The source file might look something like:

===
Title
===

Slide Title
--

* A Bulleted item

** A nested bulleted item with *boldface* type.
** Another nested bulleted item with _italicized_ text.

Another Slide Title
--


After creating the document, I run it through AsciiDoc's converter and
it creates a very simple slide presentation in HTML format. However, the
source file remains plain text. Would a screen reader get tripped up by
the various formatting tags (* A Bulleted item; _italics_, *boldface*)?

Virgil




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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Krunose]

On 02.05.2018 16:58, Tanstaafl wrote:

On Mon Apr 30 2018 16:21:51 GMT-0400 (Eastern Standard Time), Tom Davies
 wrote:

Hi :)
Pdf is not meant to be editable.  It's purpose was to look the same
everywhere on any machine and be easy to open on anything with a free,
small, easily installed program.

Apparently you are unfamiliar with PDF forms, which have fields built
into them that can easily be filled out by most any PDF reader, but the
form itself cannot be edited.

I've been using them since forever.



I had hard time filling some of them out (created in LO) as fonts get 
squashed to a thin line and I was not been able to read anything.


Testing mainly done in Ocular. Maybe due to some "non-standard" 
characters like š, č, ć, ž, đ... Could not figure out is it PDF reader 
or LO when creating PDF.


Kruno

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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Tanstaafl]

On Mon Apr 30 2018 16:21:51 GMT-0400 (Eastern Standard Time), Tom Davies
 wrote:
> Hi :) 
> Pdf is not meant to be editable.  It's purpose was to look the same
> everywhere on any machine and be easy to open on anything with a free,
> small, easily installed program. 

Apparently you are unfamiliar with PDF forms, which have fields built
into them that can easily be filled out by most any PDF reader, but the
form itself cannot be edited.

I've been using them since forever.

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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Tanstaafl]

On Mon Apr 30 2018 17:49:32 GMT-0400 (Eastern Standard Time), Ben Oliver
 wrote:
> On 18-04-30 21:43:00, Virgil Arrington wrote:
>> This is intriguing. I just looked over my options with LO 6.0.3 in
>> saving as a PDF and I don't easily see any method of saving as a
>> "fillable PDF form." Can you give a quick explanation of how to do that?
>>
>> Like Tom, I've always thought of PDF as a generally non-editable format,
>> although I have used fillable PDF forms before. I've just never known
>> how to create a fillable PDF. Can it be done from within LO?

> My understanding is that it's a feature pretty much only covered by 
> Adobe software. That includes filling out a form.

Nope. I've created numerous PDF fillable forms, first in OpenOffice,
then in Libreoffice, and have used different PDF viewers to fill them
out (Adobe Reader, PDF XChange Viewer, Sumatra PDF, etc)...

> Things may have changed since I last checked.

Some time ago, in fact...

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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Tanstaafl]

On Tue May 01 2018 14:06:17 GMT-0400 (Eastern Standard Time), toki
 wrote:
> On 04/30/2018 09:53 PM, Virgil Arrington wrote:
>> That was my thinking as well, which is why I'm intrigued by the
>> possibility of doing it directly within LO.

> Is it worth US$5,000 plus court costs plus attorney fees, to do 
> something that is a known Section 508/ADA violation?

Probably not, but this is irrelevant, since it is entirely possible to
create a PDF Fillable Form that isn't in violation of anything.

http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=screen+reader+friendly+fillable+PDF+forms

> I am not a lawyer.
> This is not legal advice.

So, maybe you shouldn't make such loud, arrogant pronouncements,
especially without having all of the facts.

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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Tanstaafl]

On Mon Apr 30 2018 17:43:00 GMT-0400 (Eastern Standard Time), Virgil
Arrington  wrote:
> This is intriguing. I just looked over my options with LO 6.0.3 in 
> saving as a PDF and I don't easily see any method of saving as a 
> "fillable PDF form." Can you give a quick explanation of how to do that?
> 
> Like Tom, I've always thought of PDF as a generally non-editable format, 
> although I have used fillable PDF forms before. I've just never known 
> how to create a fillable PDF. Can it be done from within LO?

You create the form in Libreoffice using form fields, then when you want
to save it as a fillable PDF, choose 'Export', then select PDF as the
type, then after you click OK, you have additional options, one of which
is 'Create PDF form'...

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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Virgil Arrington]

On 05/02/2018 08:07 AM, toki wrote:
> In order of accessibility:
> * Plain text;
> * MS Doc;
> * MS Docx;
> * RTF;
> * ODT;
>
>
> jonathon
>

Interesting list. I've always liked working with plain text files.

Do you have any information/opinion about various forms of markdown 
files (i.e. Markdown, RestructureText, AsciiDoc).

This semester, I played with making slide presentations using AsciiDoc 
and its "slidy" backend.

The source file might look something like:

===
Title
===

Slide Title
--

* A Bulleted item

** A nested bulleted item with *boldface* type.
** Another nested bulleted item with _italicized_ text.

Another Slide Title
--


After creating the document, I run it through AsciiDoc's converter and 
it creates a very simple slide presentation in HTML format. However, the 
source file remains plain text. Would a screen reader get tripped up by 
the various formatting tags (* A Bulleted item; _italics_, *boldface*)?

Virgil

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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Virgil Arrington]

On 05/01/2018 08:31 PM, Tom Davies wrote:
> Hi :)
> Sounds like using .doc is the best answer after all.  The Pdf route is
> intriguing.  I think Virgil probably knows whether any of his students have
> relevant accessibility issues.
>

Yes, none of my students are visually impaired and none need a screen 
reader, so I'm not concerned about lawsuits. However, I also teach 
several on-line courses, and this discussion has caused me to rethink 
some of my practices. After some very preliminary searching, it appears 
that the problem is not limited to PDF files.

Apparently, at least one of the problems is with graphics. As I 
understand it (and I admit I understand very little of it), screen 
readers turn text into speech and read the document to the user whose 
vision prevents him/her from reading it visually. I guess screen readers 
stumble on pictures. One problem with PDF is that, depending on how its 
created, the entire file can be a graphic instead of text. For example, 
if I scan a text document and save it as a PDF, what I have is not a 
text file, but a picture of a text file. Jonathan suggested that the 
fillable box in a PDF file is a graphic that screen readers don't 
comprehend. I'll defer to his greater knowledge of the subject.

Since graphics aren't limited to PDF files, neither is the potential for 
ADA violations. In my cursory search, I found articles explaining how to 
make DOC files and HTML files more accessible as well as PDF files. 
(See, e.g., 
https://www.section508.gov/content/build/create-accessible-documents). I 
found an interesting article from 2011 dealing with making 
OpenOffice.org files more accessible. 
(https://webaim.org/techniques/ooo/) One recommendation was to use 
paragraph styles for headings as they not only make the headings look 
nice, but also provide logical organization of the document, so here's 
yet another benefit of using styles!

Having said all this, I also had the opportunity to experiment with LO's 
creation of fillable PDF forms. I like the way it works, but from what I 
have found, it would seem to work best if the fillable text is only one 
line -- a short box here or there. My test is an essay test with answers 
that will be several paragraphs long. At least with the PDF I created, 
all of the fillable text was input on one line that didn't initially 
wrap. Only after I typed the entire fill-in text and hit  did the 
text wrap and become formatted to the text box that I had created. 
Assuming this is the way it always works, I don't think this would be 
very convenient for students trying to write a three paragraph essay. I 
think it it would be better for students to simply type their answers 
into the word processing file rather than a PDF. But, it's nice to know 
that LO has this capability. I'm sure I'll use it in other situations.

I also checked one of my school's computers and it appears that it has 
MSO 2006 on it -- at least that's what the Program Files menu says. It 
has been several years since I have used any version of MSO, so I'm not 
up to speed on the different versions of it over the years, and I found 
no way to open an "about MS Word" dialog to see what version it actually 
was. I say this to confirm that I have no confidence that my students' 
unique version of Word (whatever it might be) would be able to 
adequately read an ODT file created by my LO 6.0.3. However, to date, 
I've never had a problem with an LO generated DOC file being read by my 
students' computers.

So, as Tom suggests, I've come full circle. When I create an essay exam, 
I always save it in ODT format until I'm ready to share with my 
students. Then, I save a copy of the final draft to DOC and send it to 
my students. LO's conversion has really grown over the years, and I very 
impressed with the results. My students then type their answers onto the 
DOC file and send it back to me. It's a very easy solution to create 
and, thus far, has worked very well.

Virgil

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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[toki]

On 05/01/2018 07:19 PM, Dave Howorth wrote:
>> IOW, fill-able PDF is an extremely bad idea.

> What's the 'approved' solution?

In order of accessibility:

* Plain text;
* MS Doc;
* MS Docx;
* RTF;
* ODT;

The issue with RTF is that screen readers trip up on some of the markup
syntax.

The issue with both MS DocX and ODT is that the software doesn't play
nicely with screen readers. ODT has a further issue with software not
playing nicely with speech input systems.

jonathon

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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
When exporting as Pdf from LibreOffice or OpenOffice the dialogue-box has a
lot of options to play around with.  At least 1 of those options makes the
Pdf more accessible.

All those options are remembered and set as last used when you open that
dialogue again.  So once you find your preffered combination of options you
can "Next" swiftly through.

I found the accessibility option made the file-size quite a lot larger.  It
was only an issue for me about a decade ago when i reached 12 pages with
lots of images for a newsletter.  Around that sort of size i started to
bump into emailable limits (8Mb?) for some email systems.

MS Office doesn't seem to give many options for the Pdfs it produces ...

Regards from
a Tom :)




On 1 May 2018 at 18:55, Virgil Arrington <cuyfa...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Thank you for the info. I'll have to research it further.
>
> Virgil
>
>
>
> Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
>
>
>  Original message 
> From: toki <toki.kant...@gmail.com>
> Date: 5/1/18 2:52 PM (GMT-05:00)
> To: users@global.libreoffice.org
> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users
> Group [Facebook]?
>
> On 05/01/2018 06:37 PM, Virgil Arrington wrote:
>
> > Can you explain why PDF is not accessible for ADA purposes?
>
> A PDF can consist of either text, or images, or a combination of the
> two.  Screen readers can't read images.
> Provided your PDF is text only, it is accessible. If it has any images,
> or if it gets converted to images, it fails ADA requirements.
>
> Screen readers don't show where, or how to fill in the blank spaces in a
> fill-able PDF, and hence are not a11y.
>
> > don't understand how a file format can impact a person's disabilities.
>
> Consider the difference between audio captioning, closed captioning and
> open captioning.
>
> jonathon
>
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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
Thanks :)  The link answered most of my questions about fillable fields.
It's good to see there are options such as text-fields and radio-buttons.

I still think the old MS format is the way to go for sharing documents in
the here but that ODF is the way to go for long-term storage.

Thanks and regards from
a Tom :)




On 1 May 2018 at 17:33, Virgil Arrington  wrote:

>
>
> On 04/30/2018 03:39 PM, Tanstaafl wrote:
> > On 4/30/2018, 8:32:31 AM, Virgil Arrington  wrote:
> >> Today, I will be drafting the final exam for my students. I will use LO
> >> Writer for the task. I will then email it to my students and they will
> >> type their answers right onto the computer file and email it back to me.
> >> I need to get the file to my students in a format they can easily use
> >> with their computers. I will use .DOC for this purpose because it's the
> >> easiest solution to this situation.
> > No, it is just the one you settled on.
> >
> > The easiest - and safst - approach would be to use Libreoffice to create
> > the form, save it as a fillable PDF form, then send that to your
> students.
> >
> Okay, I've done some digging to find out how to create fillable PDF
> forms in LO. I found the below  website that explains it somewhat.
>
> https://www.maketecheasier.com/create-a-pdf-with-
> fillable-forms-in-libreoffice/
>
> I've tried it and it works fairly well. I'm still learning some of the
> nuances. I'll test it on various systems and I may use it for my current
> exam. I like the idea of using PDF instead of .DOC, and I think it may
> even be nicer for my students.
>
> I love learning new things that LO can do that I had never thought
> possible.
>
> Virgil
>
> --
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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
Sounds like using .doc is the best answer after all.  The Pdf route is
intriguing.  I think Virgil probably knows whether any of his students have
relevant accessibility issues.

Part of the reason for ODF is to have a format that can avoid all these
pitfalls.  When ODF is more commonly used this whole confusing situation
should be in the past.  Some people even think it's the format that could
drive wider-spread wholesale migration to LibreOffice, OpenOffice, KOffice,
Gnome Office and all the rest.

At the moment we are still stuck with a lot of places having to offer at
least 2 formats;  Pdf and the older MS one.

Regards from
a Tom :)





On 1 May 2018 at 19:19, Dave Howorth  wrote:

> On Tue, 1 May 2018 18:03:42 +
> toki  wrote:
>
> > On 04/30/2018 07:39 PM, Tanstaafl wrote:
> >
> > > The easiest - and safst - approach would be to use Libreoffice to
> > > create the form, save it as a fillable PDF form, then send that to
> > > your students.\
> >
> > Government agencies make great targets for ADA  508 lawsuits,
> > because they have deep pockets. Since PDF is not an accessible file
> > format, that fill-able PDF form means that a student with an a11y can,
> > and since they are probably broke, will sue the college for Section
> > 508/ADA violations. (For individuals with a11y issues, filing ADA
> > lawsuits is a great source of income. One lawsuit a month. One
> > settlement per month, US$5,000 per month, tax free.  Great way to
> > supplement one's disability check.)
> >
> > IOW, fill-able PDF is an extremely bad idea.
>
> What's the 'approved' solution?
>
> > jonathon
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Dave Howorth]

On Tue, 1 May 2018 18:03:42 +
toki  wrote:

> On 04/30/2018 07:39 PM, Tanstaafl wrote:
> 
> > The easiest - and safst - approach would be to use Libreoffice to
> > create the form, save it as a fillable PDF form, then send that to
> > your students.\  
> 
> Government agencies make great targets for ADA  508 lawsuits,
> because they have deep pockets. Since PDF is not an accessible file
> format, that fill-able PDF form means that a student with an a11y can,
> and since they are probably broke, will sue the college for Section
> 508/ADA violations. (For individuals with a11y issues, filing ADA
> lawsuits is a great source of income. One lawsuit a month. One
> settlement per month, US$5,000 per month, tax free.  Great way to
> supplement one's disability check.)
> 
> IOW, fill-able PDF is an extremely bad idea.

What's the 'approved' solution?

> jonathon


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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Virgil Arrington]

Thank you for the info. I'll have to research it further.

Virgil



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone


 Original message 
From: toki <toki.kant...@gmail.com>
Date: 5/1/18 2:52 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users 
Group [Facebook]?

On 05/01/2018 06:37 PM, Virgil Arrington wrote:

> Can you explain why PDF is not accessible for ADA purposes?

A PDF can consist of either text, or images, or a combination of the
two.  Screen readers can't read images.
Provided your PDF is text only, it is accessible. If it has any images,
or if it gets converted to images, it fails ADA requirements.

Screen readers don't show where, or how to fill in the blank spaces in a
fill-able PDF, and hence are not a11y.

> don't understand how a file format can impact a person's disabilities.

Consider the difference between audio captioning, closed captioning and
open captioning.

jonathon

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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Virgil Arrington]

I am a retired lawyer, but I've not heard of this issue.

Can you explain why PDF is not accessible for ADA purposes? I don't understand 
how a file format can impact a person's disabilities.

Virgil



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone


 Original message 
From: toki <toki.kant...@gmail.com>
Date: 5/1/18 2:07 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users 
Group [Facebook]?

On 04/30/2018 09:53 PM, Virgil Arrington wrote:
> That was my thinking as well, which is why I'm intrigued by the  possibility 
> of doing it directly within LO.

Is it worth US$5,000 plus court costs plus attorney fees, to do
something that is a known Section 508/ADA violation?

I am not a lawyer.
This is not legal advice.

jonathon







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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[toki]

On 05/01/2018 06:37 PM, Virgil Arrington wrote:

> Can you explain why PDF is not accessible for ADA purposes? 

A PDF can consist of either text, or images, or a combination of the
two.  Screen readers can't read images.
Provided your PDF is text only, it is accessible. If it has any images,
or if it gets converted to images, it fails ADA requirements.

Screen readers don't show where, or how to fill in the blank spaces in a
fill-able PDF, and hence are not a11y.

> don't understand how a file format can impact a person's disabilities.

Consider the difference between audio captioning, closed captioning and
open captioning.

jonathon

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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Virgil Arrington]

I am a retired lawyer, but I've not heard of this issue.

Can you explain why PDF is not accessible for ADA purposes? I don't understand 
how a file format can impact a person's disabilities.

Virgil



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone


 Original message 
From: toki <toki.kant...@gmail.com>
Date: 5/1/18 2:07 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users 
Group [Facebook]?

On 04/30/2018 09:53 PM, Virgil Arrington wrote:
> That was my thinking as well, which is why I'm intrigued by the  possibility 
> of doing it directly within LO.

Is it worth US$5,000 plus court costs plus attorney fees, to do
something that is a known Section 508/ADA violation?

I am not a lawyer.
This is not legal advice.

jonathon







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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[toki]

On 04/30/2018 09:53 PM, Virgil Arrington wrote:
> That was my thinking as well, which is why I'm intrigued by the  possibility 
> of doing it directly within LO.

Is it worth US$5,000 plus court costs plus attorney fees, to do
something that is a known Section 508/ADA violation?

I am not a lawyer.
This is not legal advice.

jonathon







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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[toki]

On 04/30/2018 07:39 PM, Tanstaafl wrote:

> The easiest - and safst - approach would be to use Libreoffice to create
> the form, save it as a fillable PDF form, then send that to your students.\

Government agencies make great targets for ADA  508 lawsuits,
because they have deep pockets. Since PDF is not an accessible file
format, that fill-able PDF form means that a student with an a11y can,
and since they are probably broke, will sue the college for Section
508/ADA violations. (For individuals with a11y issues, filing ADA
lawsuits is a great source of income. One lawsuit a month. One
settlement per month, US$5,000 per month, tax free.  Great way to
supplement one's disability check.)

IOW, fill-able PDF is an extremely bad idea.

jonathon

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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Virgil Arrington]

On 04/30/2018 03:39 PM, Tanstaafl wrote:
> On 4/30/2018, 8:32:31 AM, Virgil Arrington  wrote:
>> Today, I will be drafting the final exam for my students. I will use LO
>> Writer for the task. I will then email it to my students and they will
>> type their answers right onto the computer file and email it back to me.
>> I need to get the file to my students in a format they can easily use
>> with their computers. I will use .DOC for this purpose because it's the
>> easiest solution to this situation.
> No, it is just the one you settled on.
>
> The easiest - and safst - approach would be to use Libreoffice to create
> the form, save it as a fillable PDF form, then send that to your students.
>
Okay, I've done some digging to find out how to create fillable PDF 
forms in LO. I found the below  website that explains it somewhat.

https://www.maketecheasier.com/create-a-pdf-with-fillable-forms-in-libreoffice/

I've tried it and it works fairly well. I'm still learning some of the 
nuances. I'll test it on various systems and I may use it for my current 
exam. I like the idea of using PDF instead of .DOC, and I think it may 
even be nicer for my students.

I love learning new things that LO can do that I had never thought possible.

Virgil

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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
Thanks :))

Regards from
a Tom :)


On 30 April 2018 at 23:52, gordon cooper  wrote:

> To make a PDF from LO.
>
> File>Export>Export as PDF.
>
> And in the bad/good old days when I used an MS operating system and was
> proof reading scripts that came as PDF's, I used one of Nuance's programs
> to edit and annotate the proofs
>
> Incidentally, I have been using LInux and LO for years and regularly
> needed to
> use MS Word in replies to the members of a craft group I  have been
> assisting.
>
> No problems even though LO chides me for using an MS format and warns about
> errors.
>
> Gordon.
>
>
>
> On 01/05/18 09:53, Virgil Arrington wrote:
>
>> On 04/30/2018 05:49 PM, Ben Oliver wrote:
>>
>>> On 18-04-30 21:43:00, Virgil Arrington wrote:
>>>
 This is intriguing. I just looked over my options with LO 6.0.3 in
 saving as a PDF and I don't easily see any method of saving as a
 "fillable PDF form." Can you give a quick explanation of how to do that?

 Like Tom, I've always thought of PDF as a generally non-editable format,
 although I have used fillable PDF forms before. I've just never known
 how to create a fillable PDF. Can it be done from within LO?

 Virgil

>>> My understanding is that it's a feature pretty much only covered by
>>> Adobe software. That includes filling out a form.
>>>
>>> Things may have changed since I last checked.
>>>
>>> That was my thinking as well, which is why I'm intrigued by the
>> possibility of doing it directly within LO.
>>
>> Virgil
>>
>>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
True.

I think it is important for us to keep raising awareness of "migration
rather than switching" or "evolution rather than revolution".

To be fair to that sort of technical 'support' they have to just follow
orders and they don't want to get caught in a scenario where they are
trying to maintain and support 2 different systems.

On the other hand just leaving MS Office on a system is easier than
removing it and it will crumble away on it's own.  It is a security risk
and will have it's own wobbly moments but those will encourage people to
move increasingly to the better, newer system.

Also i think we have a duty to resist "just following orders" although that
is not always possible.  I've heard many stories of tech-support people
quietly letting a machine's user know how to access something they
shouldn't and asking them to keep it quiet.  I've used the "oops i forgot"
excuse a few times but that rarely works out well.


I've generally found tech support to be arogant a*$3h0l3s until i started
meeting people who also support non-MS systems.
Regards from
a Tom :)








On 1 May 2018 at 01:16, Virgil Arrington <cuyfa...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Of course you're right from a technological standpoint, but in our
> situation, the IT staff came in over the weekend and literally deleted
> WordPerfect from everyones' computers, along with all our macros, etc. and
> installed MSO. We all arrived on Monday to a big surprise. One secretary
> was so angry she left and didn't come back for several days.
>
> So, there's technological forcing and then there's political forcing.
>
> Virgil
>
>
>
> Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
>
>
>  Original message 
> From: Tom Davies <tomc...@gmail.com>
> Date: 4/30/18 7:37 PM (GMT-05:00)
> To: Virgil Arrington <cuyfa...@hotmail.com>
> Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org
> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users
> Group [Facebook]?
>
> Hi :)
> Switching is painful.  It's the MS way.
>
> It's difficult to have 2 versions of MSO running on one system - but it's
> easy to install LibreOffice alongside MS Office.
>
> So it's easier to migrate gradually, at your own pace, from MS Office to
> LibreOffice.  You are not forced to lose access to the system you are
> familiar with when moving to a FOSS system.
>
> Regards from
> a Tom :)
>
>
>
>
>
> On 30 April 2018 at 22:14, Virgil Arrington <cuyfa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On 04/30/2018 03:02 PM, Tim-L wrote:
>> > I started this thread with the notice of someone on a Facebook post
>> > wondering how to default to saving to MS Word format.
>> >
>> > Yes, a "crusade" to get schools to make the switch to Open Document
>> > Formats should be looked into.  But that is not what was implied in
>> > the thread I originally talked about.
>> >
>>
>> I was only responding to the suggestion that the problem you were trying
>> to solve -- how to default to an MSO format -- was misdirected, when the
>> "real problem" was that schools use MSO rather than LO. When all I need
>> to do is get a final exam to my students in the next two days, I don't
>> have time for FOSS crusades.
>>
>> I recall back in the day, the mantra of IT managers was that, nobody
>> ever got fired for buying IBM. I suspect a similar attitude exists today
>> with MSO.
>>
>> I remember  many, many years ago when the government office where I
>> worked switched from WordPerfect to MS Word. The outcry from the
>> proficient WordPerfect users was deafening.
>>
>> I can only imagine the mutiny that might result if a major institution
>> announced that it was switching all of its computers from the familiar
>> MSO to LibreOffice. Now, I love LO as much as the next FOSS user, but
>> that love has come from constant use since the days when it was
>> StarOffice. I have invested the time to learn the program and customize
>> it for my use with styles, templates, etc. I wouldn't fault an MSO user
>> from feeling completely ambushed if his employer were to declare that he
>> had to switch to LO.
>>
>> Virgil
>>
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>

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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Virgil Arrington]

Of course you're right from a technological standpoint, but in our situation, 
the IT staff came in over the weekend and literally deleted WordPerfect from 
everyones' computers, along with all our macros, etc. and installed MSO. We all 
arrived on Monday to a big surprise. One secretary was so angry she left and 
didn't come back for several days.

So, there's technological forcing and then there's political forcing.

Virgil



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone


 Original message 
From: Tom Davies <tomc...@gmail.com>
Date: 4/30/18 7:37 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: Virgil Arrington <cuyfa...@hotmail.com>
Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users 
Group [Facebook]?

Hi :)
Switching is painful.  It's the MS way.

It's difficult to have 2 versions of MSO running on one system - but it's easy 
to install LibreOffice alongside MS Office.

So it's easier to migrate gradually, at your own pace, from MS Office to 
LibreOffice.  You are not forced to lose access to the system you are familiar 
with when moving to a FOSS system.

Regards from
a Tom :)





On 30 April 2018 at 22:14, Virgil Arrington 
<cuyfa...@hotmail.com<mailto:cuyfa...@hotmail.com>> wrote:


On 04/30/2018 03:02 PM, Tim-L wrote:
> I started this thread with the notice of someone on a Facebook post
> wondering how to default to saving to MS Word format.
>
> Yes, a "crusade" to get schools to make the switch to Open Document
> Formats should be looked into.  But that is not what was implied in
> the thread I originally talked about.
>

I was only responding to the suggestion that the problem you were trying
to solve -- how to default to an MSO format -- was misdirected, when the
"real problem" was that schools use MSO rather than LO. When all I need
to do is get a final exam to my students in the next two days, I don't
have time for FOSS crusades.

I recall back in the day, the mantra of IT managers was that, nobody
ever got fired for buying IBM. I suspect a similar attitude exists today
with MSO.

I remember  many, many years ago when the government office where I
worked switched from WordPerfect to MS Word. The outcry from the
proficient WordPerfect users was deafening.

I can only imagine the mutiny that might result if a major institution
announced that it was switching all of its computers from the familiar
MSO to LibreOffice. Now, I love LO as much as the next FOSS user, but
that love has come from constant use since the days when it was
StarOffice. I have invested the time to learn the program and customize
it for my use with styles, templates, etc. I wouldn't fault an MSO user
from feeling completely ambushed if his employer were to declare that he
had to switch to LO.

Virgil

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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[gordon cooper]

To make a PDF from LO.

File>Export>Export as PDF.

And in the bad/good old days when I used an MS operating system and was
proof reading scripts that came as PDF's, I used one of Nuance's programs
to edit and annotate the proofs

Incidentally, I have been using LInux and LO for years and regularly 
needed to
use MS Word in replies to the members of a craft group I  have been 
assisting.


No problems even though LO chides me for using an MS format and warns about
errors.

Gordon.


On 01/05/18 09:53, Virgil Arrington wrote:

On 04/30/2018 05:49 PM, Ben Oliver wrote:

On 18-04-30 21:43:00, Virgil Arrington wrote:

This is intriguing. I just looked over my options with LO 6.0.3 in
saving as a PDF and I don't easily see any method of saving as a
"fillable PDF form." Can you give a quick explanation of how to do that?

Like Tom, I've always thought of PDF as a generally non-editable format,
although I have used fillable PDF forms before. I've just never known
how to create a fillable PDF. Can it be done from within LO?

Virgil

My understanding is that it's a feature pretty much only covered by
Adobe software. That includes filling out a form.

Things may have changed since I last checked.


That was my thinking as well, which is why I'm intrigued by the
possibility of doing it directly within LO.

Virgil




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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
That sounds interesting!  How do you create a "fillable field"?  I know
about hybrid Pdfs but fillable fields sounds like something that could be
used outside of LO.
Regards from
a Tom :)



On 30 April 2018 at 22:57, Remy Gauthier  wrote:

> Le lundi 30 avril 2018 à 21:53 +, Virgil Arrington a écrit :
> > On 04/30/2018 05:49 PM, Ben Oliver wrote:
> > > On 18-04-30 21:43:00, Virgil Arrington wrote:
> > > > This is intriguing. I just looked over my options with LO 6.0.3
> > > > in
> > > > saving as a PDF and I don't easily see any method of saving as a
> > > > "fillable PDF form." Can you give a quick explanation of how to
> > > > do that?
> > > >
> > > > Like Tom, I've always thought of PDF as a generally non-editable
> > > > format,
> > > > although I have used fillable PDF forms before. I've just never
> > > > known
> > > > how to create a fillable PDF. Can it be done from within LO?
> > > >
> > > > Virgil
> > >
> > > My understanding is that it's a feature pretty much only covered
> > > by
> > > Adobe software. That includes filling out a form.
> > >
> > > Things may have changed since I last checked.
> > >
> >
> > That was my thinking as well, which is why I'm intrigued by the
> > possibility of doing it directly within LO.
> >
> When you create a Writer document with fillable fields, the resulting
> PDF supports having these fields edited. I just tried this with LO
> 6.0.3 and Evince (Linux). I suspect the same will apply to Acrobat
> Reader.
> Rémy.
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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
Switching is painful.  It's the MS way.

It's difficult to have 2 versions of MSO running on one system - but it's
easy to install LibreOffice alongside MS Office.

So it's easier to migrate gradually, at your own pace, from MS Office to
LibreOffice.  You are not forced to lose access to the system you are
familiar with when moving to a FOSS system.

Regards from
a Tom :)





On 30 April 2018 at 22:14, Virgil Arrington  wrote:

>
>
> On 04/30/2018 03:02 PM, Tim-L wrote:
> > I started this thread with the notice of someone on a Facebook post
> > wondering how to default to saving to MS Word format.
> >
> > Yes, a "crusade" to get schools to make the switch to Open Document
> > Formats should be looked into.  But that is not what was implied in
> > the thread I originally talked about.
> >
>
> I was only responding to the suggestion that the problem you were trying
> to solve -- how to default to an MSO format -- was misdirected, when the
> "real problem" was that schools use MSO rather than LO. When all I need
> to do is get a final exam to my students in the next two days, I don't
> have time for FOSS crusades.
>
> I recall back in the day, the mantra of IT managers was that, nobody
> ever got fired for buying IBM. I suspect a similar attitude exists today
> with MSO.
>
> I remember  many, many years ago when the government office where I
> worked switched from WordPerfect to MS Word. The outcry from the
> proficient WordPerfect users was deafening.
>
> I can only imagine the mutiny that might result if a major institution
> announced that it was switching all of its computers from the familiar
> MSO to LibreOffice. Now, I love LO as much as the next FOSS user, but
> that love has come from constant use since the days when it was
> StarOffice. I have invested the time to learn the program and customize
> it for my use with styles, templates, etc. I wouldn't fault an MSO user
> from feeling completely ambushed if his employer were to declare that he
> had to switch to LO.
>
> Virgil
>
> --
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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Remy Gauthier]

Le lundi 30 avril 2018 à 21:53 +, Virgil Arrington a écrit :
> On 04/30/2018 05:49 PM, Ben Oliver wrote:
> > On 18-04-30 21:43:00, Virgil Arrington wrote:
> > > This is intriguing. I just looked over my options with LO 6.0.3
> > > in
> > > saving as a PDF and I don't easily see any method of saving as a
> > > "fillable PDF form." Can you give a quick explanation of how to
> > > do that?
> > > 
> > > Like Tom, I've always thought of PDF as a generally non-editable
> > > format,
> > > although I have used fillable PDF forms before. I've just never
> > > known
> > > how to create a fillable PDF. Can it be done from within LO?
> > > 
> > > Virgil
> > 
> > My understanding is that it's a feature pretty much only covered
> > by 
> > Adobe software. That includes filling out a form.
> > 
> > Things may have changed since I last checked.
> > 
> 
> That was my thinking as well, which is why I'm intrigued by the 
> possibility of doing it directly within LO.
> 
When you create a Writer document with fillable fields, the resulting
PDF supports having these fields edited. I just tried this with LO
6.0.3 and Evince (Linux). I suspect the same will apply to Acrobat
Reader.
Rémy.
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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Virgil Arrington]

On 04/30/2018 03:02 PM, Tim-L wrote:
> I started this thread with the notice of someone on a Facebook post 
> wondering how to default to saving to MS Word format.
>
> Yes, a "crusade" to get schools to make the switch to Open Document 
> Formats should be looked into.  But that is not what was implied in 
> the thread I originally talked about.
>

I was only responding to the suggestion that the problem you were trying 
to solve -- how to default to an MSO format -- was misdirected, when the 
"real problem" was that schools use MSO rather than LO. When all I need 
to do is get a final exam to my students in the next two days, I don't 
have time for FOSS crusades.

I recall back in the day, the mantra of IT managers was that, nobody 
ever got fired for buying IBM. I suspect a similar attitude exists today 
with MSO.

I remember  many, many years ago when the government office where I 
worked switched from WordPerfect to MS Word. The outcry from the 
proficient WordPerfect users was deafening.

I can only imagine the mutiny that might result if a major institution 
announced that it was switching all of its computers from the familiar 
MSO to LibreOffice. Now, I love LO as much as the next FOSS user, but 
that love has come from constant use since the days when it was 
StarOffice. I have invested the time to learn the program and customize 
it for my use with styles, templates, etc. I wouldn't fault an MSO user 
from feeling completely ambushed if his employer were to declare that he 
had to switch to LO.

Virgil

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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Virgil Arrington]

On 04/30/2018 05:49 PM, Ben Oliver wrote:
> On 18-04-30 21:43:00, Virgil Arrington wrote:
>> This is intriguing. I just looked over my options with LO 6.0.3 in
>> saving as a PDF and I don't easily see any method of saving as a
>> "fillable PDF form." Can you give a quick explanation of how to do that?
>>
>> Like Tom, I've always thought of PDF as a generally non-editable format,
>> although I have used fillable PDF forms before. I've just never known
>> how to create a fillable PDF. Can it be done from within LO?
>>
>> Virgil
>
> My understanding is that it's a feature pretty much only covered by 
> Adobe software. That includes filling out a form.
>
> Things may have changed since I last checked.
>
That was my thinking as well, which is why I'm intrigued by the 
possibility of doing it directly within LO.

Virgil

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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Ben Oliver]

On 18-04-30 21:43:00, Virgil Arrington wrote:

This is intriguing. I just looked over my options with LO 6.0.3 in
saving as a PDF and I don't easily see any method of saving as a
"fillable PDF form." Can you give a quick explanation of how to do that?

Like Tom, I've always thought of PDF as a generally non-editable format,
although I have used fillable PDF forms before. I've just never known
how to create a fillable PDF. Can it be done from within LO?

Virgil


My understanding is that it's a feature pretty much only covered by 
Adobe software. That includes filling out a form.


Things may have changed since I last checked.

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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Virgil Arrington]

On 04/30/2018 03:39 PM, Tanstaafl wrote:
> On 4/30/2018, 8:32:31 AM, Virgil Arrington  wrote:
>> Today, I will be drafting the final exam for my students. I will use LO
>> Writer for the task. I will then email it to my students and they will
>> type their answers right onto the computer file and email it back to me.
>> I need to get the file to my students in a format they can easily use
>> with their computers. I will use .DOC for this purpose because it's the
>> easiest solution to this situation.
> No, it is just the one you settled on.
>
> The easiest - and safst - approach would be to use Libreoffice to create
> the form, save it as a fillable PDF form, then send that to your students.
>
This is intriguing. I just looked over my options with LO 6.0.3 in 
saving as a PDF and I don't easily see any method of saving as a 
"fillable PDF form." Can you give a quick explanation of how to do that?

Like Tom, I've always thought of PDF as a generally non-editable format, 
although I have used fillable PDF forms before. I've just never known 
how to create a fillable PDF. Can it be done from within LO?

Virgil

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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Felmon Davis]

On Mon, 30 Apr 2018, Virgil Arrington wrote:


On 04/30/2018 11:11 AM, James Knott wrote:


Recent versions of MS Office are supposed to be able to work with Open
Document files.  Have you tried to see what happens when you use it with
ODF files?


Thank you for the suggestion. My personal computer is Linux only, but
I'll check it out on the school's computers to see how well MSO reads
and writes to .odt. I don't even know what version of MSO the school uses.


I shall have to check also. I'll send to some students as guinea pigs.

one thing I've observed is that in spite of being a (partly) Linux 
company, google-drive does not treat .odt files kindly: it seems to 
list the unzipped contents instead of showing properly formatted text.


the school uses google-apps for education, specially designed for use 
in schools (more privacy, closed environment).


f.

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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Virgil Arrington]

On 04/30/2018 11:11 AM, James Knott wrote:
>
> Recent versions of MS Office are supposed to be able to work with Open
> Document files.  Have you tried to see what happens when you use it with
> ODF files?
>
Thank you for the suggestion. My personal computer is Linux only, but 
I'll check it out on the school's computers to see how well MSO reads 
and writes to .odt. I don't even know what version of MSO the school uses.

Virgil

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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
Pdf is not meant to be editable.  It's purpose was to look the same
everywhere on any machine and be easy to open on anything with a free,
small, easily installed program.

For editable documents the best format is still .Doc and the other older MS
formats.  Now that MS have stopped developing it there are no unexpected
new bumps - and it's old enough that it's a familiar option in most
programs.

It still has problems such as vulnerability to malware but even the most
recent versions of MS's newest format apparently have that problem too.  Of
course such malware relies on users opening the document with MS Officee.
To get infected in the first place needs someone with skills and
intent/ineptitude between document creator and weeu - or to be created on
an appropriately infected version of MS Office.

So Virgil's use of the older MS Format neatly avoids almost all of the
usual problems of that format and completely avoids the incompatibility
issues between each of the "transitional" versions of their newer format.


When saving in MS Formats it is wise to keep an original copy in ODF
because every version of MS Office seems to like stuffing-up documents it
saves in any format.

Regards from
a Tom :)




On 30 April 2018 at 19:39, Tanstaafl  wrote:

> On 4/30/2018, 8:32:31 AM, Virgil Arrington  wrote:
> > Today, I will be drafting the final exam for my students. I will use LO
> > Writer for the task. I will then email it to my students and they will
> > type their answers right onto the computer file and email it back to me.
> > I need to get the file to my students in a format they can easily use
> > with their computers. I will use .DOC for this purpose because it's the
> > easiest solution to this situation.
>
> No, it is just the one you settled on.
>
> The easiest - and safst - approach would be to use Libreoffice to create
> the form, save it as a fillable PDF form, then send that to your students.
>
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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
Microsoft have problems following any standard or any format, even their
own.  Usually it looks like their ineptitude looks a lot like a deliberate
attempt to ensure that people have to keep buying newer and newer versions
of MS Office to keep up with everyone else.

MS Office 2007 and 2010 claimed to be able to read ODF but had trouble with
spreadsheets.  They saw that people were using version 2.? of ODF and
decided to go for 'compatibility' with version 1.0 (or 1.1) of ODF
instead.  That meant they could claim they were reaching out and had
fulfilled obligations/promises/expectations to be able to read other
people's formats but ensured that there would be significant hiccups.

By the time of MS Office 2013 the ODF version 2.? had finally become
formally recognised as "stable" by the committee that manages it.

So, MS ran out of reasonable excuses for failing to implement the same
version of ODF as everyone else.  This time it would look like ineptitude.


With their own 'new' format each different version of MS Office used a
different "transitional version" of their format - using the excuse that
their own ISO format was too difficult to implement.

Regards from
a Tom :)














On 30 April 2018 at 19:02, Tim-L  wrote:

> On 04/30/2018 08:32 AM, Virgil Arrington wrote:
>
>> You are trying to find a solution to a problem.
>>> The problem is the wrong choice of the school ('only DOC or DOCX
>>> documents')
>>> Try to solve the problem, and try not to find a work-around as solution.
>>>
>>>
>>> I teach at a college. I use LO, LyX and LaTeX for my work. All of my
>> students use MSO. The reasons? It is familiar to them and they get it
>> free as college students. I don't know if this is standard MS policy or
>> a special arrangement the college has made with Redmond.
>>
>> My experience with college students is that most have no clue about
>> different file formats. They just save their work in whatever format
>> defaults on their programs, which happens to be .DOCX, .XLSX, etc.
>>
>> Today, I will be drafting the final exam for my students. I will use LO
>> Writer for the task. I will then email it to my students and they will
>> type their answers right onto the computer file and email it back to me.
>> I need to get the file to my students in a format they can easily use
>> with their computers. I will use .DOC for this purpose because it's the
>> easiest solution to this situation.
>>
>> I suppose I could insist that all of my students use .ODT file format
>> instead of .DOC, but I've decided its easier for one person (me) to
>> change his file format for a specific task than it is for scores of
>> students to change theirs. I want them to focus their efforts on the
>> substance of the test rather than the nuances of computer software.
>>
>> I suppose that I could also crusade to solve the "problem" of the school
>> choosing the wrong office suite for its students, but that Quixotic
>> quest will take much more time and emotional energy than I have.
>>
>> It is much easier for me to simply select a native MSO format than it is
>> to fight an impossible dream against the tide of inertia. I only do it
>> when I need to and I am deeply grateful to the LO developers for
>> creating a program that translates to .DOC and .DOCX so well.
>>
>> But, this thread has piqued my interest in the Linux FB user's group.
>> I'll check it out.
>>
>> Virgil
>>
>> I started this thread with the notice of someone on a Facebook post
> wondering how to default to saving to MS Word format.
>
> Yes, a "crusade" to get schools to make the switch to Open Document
> Formats should be looked into.  But that is not what was implied in the
> thread I originally talked about.
>
> The thread, in part, went into a sidebar about security in a computer
> center and control of what packages would be allowed to be accessible. I
> stated that I had to spend time a week to uninstall all of the user
> installed packages to download files that was not allowed, or illegal.
> Things like porn [normal and illegal types] and copyrighted movies, TV
> shows, etc. Some people who we caught were evicted and/or arrested. The
> computer center was closed.  I told him that I tried to get the
> powers-that-be switch to Linux systems and only have packages like Firefox,
> Skype, and LibreOffice accessible to the users. Having to use a Root
> password to install any packages would help keep the computers clean.
>
> Then the question of saving MSO file formats by default was posed.
>
> After that, I posted the start of this thread.
>
> I did not expect the call for a "crusade" to get the schools to allow ODFs
> to be used.  I just wanted to post that there are non-LibreOffice user
> groups that questions may come up about using LO.  This is not the first
> time I have dealt with emails and user group questions about using
> LibreOffice.
>
> ---
>
> YES, I think schools need to move to open source packages. I 

Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Tanstaafl]

On 4/30/2018, 8:32:31 AM, Virgil Arrington  wrote:
> Today, I will be drafting the final exam for my students. I will use LO 
> Writer for the task. I will then email it to my students and they will 
> type their answers right onto the computer file and email it back to me. 
> I need to get the file to my students in a format they can easily use 
> with their computers. I will use .DOC for this purpose because it's the 
> easiest solution to this situation.

No, it is just the one you settled on.

The easiest - and safst - approach would be to use Libreoffice to create
the form, save it as a fillable PDF form, then send that to your students.

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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Tim-L]

On 04/30/2018 08:32 AM, Virgil Arrington wrote:

You are trying to find a solution to a problem.
The problem is the wrong choice of the school ('only DOC or DOCX documents')
Try to solve the problem, and try not to find a work-around as solution.



I teach at a college. I use LO, LyX and LaTeX for my work. All of my
students use MSO. The reasons? It is familiar to them and they get it
free as college students. I don't know if this is standard MS policy or
a special arrangement the college has made with Redmond.

My experience with college students is that most have no clue about
different file formats. They just save their work in whatever format
defaults on their programs, which happens to be .DOCX, .XLSX, etc.

Today, I will be drafting the final exam for my students. I will use LO
Writer for the task. I will then email it to my students and they will
type their answers right onto the computer file and email it back to me.
I need to get the file to my students in a format they can easily use
with their computers. I will use .DOC for this purpose because it's the
easiest solution to this situation.

I suppose I could insist that all of my students use .ODT file format
instead of .DOC, but I've decided its easier for one person (me) to
change his file format for a specific task than it is for scores of
students to change theirs. I want them to focus their efforts on the
substance of the test rather than the nuances of computer software.

I suppose that I could also crusade to solve the "problem" of the school
choosing the wrong office suite for its students, but that Quixotic
quest will take much more time and emotional energy than I have.

It is much easier for me to simply select a native MSO format than it is
to fight an impossible dream against the tide of inertia. I only do it
when I need to and I am deeply grateful to the LO developers for
creating a program that translates to .DOC and .DOCX so well.

But, this thread has piqued my interest in the Linux FB user's group.
I'll check it out.

Virgil

I started this thread with the notice of someone on a Facebook post 
wondering how to default to saving to MS Word format.


Yes, a "crusade" to get schools to make the switch to Open Document 
Formats should be looked into.  But that is not what was implied in the 
thread I originally talked about.


The thread, in part, went into a sidebar about security in a computer 
center and control of what packages would be allowed to be accessible. I 
stated that I had to spend time a week to uninstall all of the user 
installed packages to download files that was not allowed, or illegal.  
Things like porn [normal and illegal types] and copyrighted movies, TV 
shows, etc. Some people who we caught were evicted and/or arrested. The 
computer center was closed.  I told him that I tried to get the 
powers-that-be switch to Linux systems and only have packages like 
Firefox, Skype, and LibreOffice accessible to the users. Having to use a 
Root password to install any packages would help keep the computers clean.


Then the question of saving MSO file formats by default was posed.

After that, I posted the start of this thread.

I did not expect the call for a "crusade" to get the schools to allow 
ODFs to be used.  I just wanted to post that there are non-LibreOffice 
user groups that questions may come up about using LO.  This is not the 
first time I have dealt with emails and user group questions about using 
LibreOffice.


---

YES, I think schools need to move to open source packages. I looked into 
doing this locally. If the school[s] allow you to present this at a 
meeting, then you must PROVE using ODFs would useful for them and the 
students. Then there would be a 1 or 2 year discussion on the idea of 
ODF and LibreOffice. The cost to me, time and money, with the process 
would be more than I can do. Also, it seems that local schools and 
computer centers use specific software defined by the county IT people. 
Many people I talked with are users of open source packages, even 
LibreOffice, on their home systems or even on their work systems. Yet, 
their IT job required them to support non-open source packages.


When it comes down to it, people, organizations, and businesses, got 
hooked into packages and it would be really "bad" if they try to dump 
them. MS contracts tend to make the move almost impossible without major 
financial "punishment" that no one can afford.




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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Roy Reese]

> Enviar: lunes 30 de abril de 2018 a las 17:11
> De: "James Knott" <james.kn...@jknott.net>
> Para: users@global.libreoffice.org
> Asunto: Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users 
> Group [Facebook]?
>
> On 04/30/2018 08:32 AM, Virgil Arrington wrote:
> > Today, I will be drafting the final exam for my students. I will use LO 
> > Writer for the task. I will then email it to my students and they will 
> > type their answers right onto the computer file and email it back to me. 
> > I need to get the file to my students in a format they can easily use 
> > with their computers. I will use .DOC for this purpose because it's the 
> > easiest solution to this situation.
> 
> Recent versions of MS Office are supposed to be able to work with Open
> Document files.  Have you tried to see what happens when you use it with
> ODF files?
> 
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> 
That is exactly right, no student today should have a problem reading an odt 
file with MS Office as odt support has been incorporated in MSO since 2007 when 
MSO also defaulted to the docx format as a result of criticism of its closed 
formats. 

Having been sickened early on by the "advertising" coming from Apple, Samsung 
and others, the "signature" of my business mail notes that it was produced 
using Linux and open-source applications. (If I am forced to use a mobile, it 
notes that K-9 Mail is the FOSS source.) One should be making every effort to 
promote open source and letting the world know that there alternatives to the 
commercial applications that try to hold us captive.

In the case of students, I would go a step further with a footnote:

*The attached file was produced by LibreOffice, a powerful Free and Open-Source 
Software (FOSS) office suite and saved in the Open Document Format. To learn 
more about FOSS, click here. To learn more about LibreOffice and download it 
for free, click here.

The FOSS link might be to this: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html. Of 
course a link could also be provided to a Wikipedia or other page about ODF.

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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Luuk]

On 30-4-2018 17:11, James Knott wrote:
> On 04/30/2018 08:32 AM, Virgil Arrington wrote:
>> Today, I will be drafting the final exam for my students. I will use LO 
>> Writer for the task. I will then email it to my students and they will 
>> type their answers right onto the computer file and email it back to me. 
>> I need to get the file to my students in a format they can easily use 
>> with their computers. I will use .DOC for this purpose because it's the 
>> easiest solution to this situation.
> Recent versions of MS Office are supposed to be able to work with Open
> Document files.  Have you tried to see what happens when you use it with
> ODF files?
>

i tried to open and ods (with Excel2013), lay-out was wrong, but it worked!



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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[James Knott]

On 04/30/2018 08:32 AM, Virgil Arrington wrote:
> Today, I will be drafting the final exam for my students. I will use LO 
> Writer for the task. I will then email it to my students and they will 
> type their answers right onto the computer file and email it back to me. 
> I need to get the file to my students in a format they can easily use 
> with their computers. I will use .DOC for this purpose because it's the 
> easiest solution to this situation.

Recent versions of MS Office are supposed to be able to work with Open
Document files.  Have you tried to see what happens when you use it with
ODF files?

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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Rob Jasper]

If they have a recent version of ms-word they should be able to read odt files 
into word without problem..

So, using odt, doc or docx should be transparent (I hope)


On 30 apr. 2018, at 14:32, Virgil Arrington wrote:

> 
>> You are trying to find a solution to a problem.
>> The problem is the wrong choice of the school ('only DOC or DOCX documents')
>> Try to solve the problem, and try not to find a work-around as solution.
>> 
>> 
> 
> I teach at a college. I use LO, LyX and LaTeX for my work. All of my 
> students use MSO. The reasons? It is familiar to them and they get it 
> free as college students. I don't know if this is standard MS policy or 
> a special arrangement the college has made with Redmond.
> 
> My experience with college students is that most have no clue about 
> different file formats. They just save their work in whatever format 
> defaults on their programs, which happens to be .DOCX, .XLSX, etc.
> 
> Today, I will be drafting the final exam for my students. I will use LO 
> Writer for the task. I will then email it to my students and they will 
> type their answers right onto the computer file and email it back to me. 
> I need to get the file to my students in a format they can easily use 
> with their computers. I will use .DOC for this purpose because it's the 
> easiest solution to this situation.
> 
> I suppose I could insist that all of my students use .ODT file format 
> instead of .DOC, but I've decided its easier for one person (me) to 
> change his file format for a specific task than it is for scores of 
> students to change theirs. I want them to focus their efforts on the 
> substance of the test rather than the nuances of computer software.
> 
> I suppose that I could also crusade to solve the "problem" of the school 
> choosing the wrong office suite for its students, but that Quixotic 
> quest will take much more time and emotional energy than I have.
> 
> It is much easier for me to simply select a native MSO format than it is 
> to fight an impossible dream against the tide of inertia. I only do it 
> when I need to and I am deeply grateful to the LO developers for 
> creating a program that translates to .DOC and .DOCX so well.
> 
> But, this thread has piqued my interest in the Linux FB user's group. 
> I'll check it out.
> 
> Virgil
> 
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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Virgil Arrington]

> You are trying to find a solution to a problem.
> The problem is the wrong choice of the school ('only DOC or DOCX documents')
> Try to solve the problem, and try not to find a work-around as solution.
>
>

I teach at a college. I use LO, LyX and LaTeX for my work. All of my 
students use MSO. The reasons? It is familiar to them and they get it 
free as college students. I don't know if this is standard MS policy or 
a special arrangement the college has made with Redmond.

My experience with college students is that most have no clue about 
different file formats. They just save their work in whatever format 
defaults on their programs, which happens to be .DOCX, .XLSX, etc.

Today, I will be drafting the final exam for my students. I will use LO 
Writer for the task. I will then email it to my students and they will 
type their answers right onto the computer file and email it back to me. 
I need to get the file to my students in a format they can easily use 
with their computers. I will use .DOC for this purpose because it's the 
easiest solution to this situation.

I suppose I could insist that all of my students use .ODT file format 
instead of .DOC, but I've decided its easier for one person (me) to 
change his file format for a specific task than it is for scores of 
students to change theirs. I want them to focus their efforts on the 
substance of the test rather than the nuances of computer software.

I suppose that I could also crusade to solve the "problem" of the school 
choosing the wrong office suite for its students, but that Quixotic 
quest will take much more time and emotional energy than I have.

It is much easier for me to simply select a native MSO format than it is 
to fight an impossible dream against the tide of inertia. I only do it 
when I need to and I am deeply grateful to the LO developers for 
creating a program that translates to .DOC and .DOCX so well.

But, this thread has piqued my interest in the Linux FB user's group. 
I'll check it out.

Virgil

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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[toki]

On 04/30/2018 07:20 AM, Luuk wrote:

> The problem is the wrong choice of the school ('only DOC or DOCX documents')

The real issue is why do LMS admins appear to routinely disable ODF file
format compatibility?

Is that something they do, or is it that they aren't aware of ODF file
formats, or is it that the instructors that don't know what ODF file
formats are?

More than once, I've encountered an office that used AOo, with it
configured to save to MS doc, because they thought that nobody else
would be able to read/write/edit ODF file formats, even though literally
every entity that they exchanged documents with, either used LibO or AOo.

jonathon

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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Luuk]

On 30-4-2018 05:15, Tim-L wrote:
> On 04/29/2018 01:17 PM, Luuk wrote:
>>
>> On 29-4-2018 17:23, James Knott wrote:
>>> On 04/29/2018 10:23 AM, Tim-L wrote:
 There was a question in it about wondering how to get the users of
 Linux to save LibreOffice files to Microsoft Word formats.
>>> Why would we want to, unless we had to?  The whole point of the Open
>>> Document formats was to be a non proprietary method that anyone can
>>> use.  Unlike MS formats, ODF is fully open.  Perhaps you should go to a
>>> site called Groklaw and read about all the nonsense with MS forcing
>>> their new spec through ISO, to make it a standard, when even their own
>>> implementation didn't comply with it.
>>>
>>>
>>> I use ODF formats unless I have a need to use MS, such as uploading
>>> documents to a web site that does not accept ODF.
>>>
>>>
>> You did forget to ask Tim-L what Facebook has to do with this problem
>> ...
>>
>> ;)
> I read a "question" about LibreOffice and then answered it.  From that
> last statement, it could seem to be a negative response of unfriendly
> people. I hope that is was meant as a joke.
>
>
> Who can afford to buy MS Office these days.
>
> So, if your kids need to write papers that require MS Office formats,
> then Open Document Formats will not do.  I know that over half of our
> local schools still have a MSO that did not even think about
> supporting a .odt document. So you either need to save it as DOC or
> DOCX to work with those computers.
>
> Why Facebook?  Well I was talking about using Linux for its security
> option of needing a Root Password to install packages. Just give the
> users Firefox, Skype, and LibreOffice.  Thats it. Then there was the
> comment about not remembering how to make sure the users defaulted to
> MSO formats, instead of trying to remember to save it to DOC/DOCX
> instead of ODT.
>
> You would not believe that info, and questions, that get on a Facebook
> Linux support group. One thread I am keep monitoring is what is the
> best distro of Linux and why.
>
>
>

You are trying to find a solution to a problem.
The problem is the wrong choice of the school ('only DOC or DOCX documents')
Try to solve the problem, and try not to find a work-around as solution.






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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Tim-L]

On 04/29/2018 01:17 PM, Luuk wrote:


On 29-4-2018 17:23, James Knott wrote:

On 04/29/2018 10:23 AM, Tim-L wrote:

There was a question in it about wondering how to get the users of
Linux to save LibreOffice files to Microsoft Word formats.

Why would we want to, unless we had to?  The whole point of the Open
Document formats was to be a non proprietary method that anyone can
use.  Unlike MS formats, ODF is fully open.  Perhaps you should go to a
site called Groklaw and read about all the nonsense with MS forcing
their new spec through ISO, to make it a standard, when even their own
implementation didn't comply with it.


I use ODF formats unless I have a need to use MS, such as uploading
documents to a web site that does not accept ODF.



You did forget to ask Tim-L what Facebook has to do with this problem ...

;)
I read a "question" about LibreOffice and then answered it.  From that 
last statement, it could seem to be a negative response of unfriendly 
people. I hope that is was meant as a joke.



Who can afford to buy MS Office these days.

So, if your kids need to write papers that require MS Office formats, 
then Open Document Formats will not do.  I know that over half of our 
local schools still have a MSO that did not even think about supporting 
a .odt document. So you either need to save it as DOC or DOCX to work 
with those computers.


Why Facebook?  Well I was talking about using Linux for its security 
option of needing a Root Password to install packages. Just give the 
users Firefox, Skype, and LibreOffice.  Thats it. Then there was the 
comment about not remembering how to make sure the users defaulted to 
MSO formats, instead of trying to remember to save it to DOC/DOCX 
instead of ODT.


You would not believe that info, and questions, that get on a Facebook 
Linux support group. One thread I am keep monitoring is what is the best 
distro of Linux and why.




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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[James Knott]

On 04/29/2018 01:17 PM, Luuk wrote:
> You did forget to ask Tim-L what Facebook has to do with this problem ...

I suspect anyone using Facebook already has enough problems.  ;-)


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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Brian Barker]

At 10:20 29/04/2018 -0700, Tom Williams wrote:
I don't help many LibreOffice on Linux users but I do help a number 
of LibreOffice on Windows users and I usually configure LibreOffice 
to save in Microsoft formats, by default.


Please don't.

Most of these people don't understand different file formats and 
want to be able to "just send" files to friends, family, or other 
members of a group or something. Being a Linux user, myself, I save 
files in Microsoft format only when I *know* I need to send a Word 
or Excel file to someone else. Otherwise, any files I need to send 
to people are saved as PDF.


I don't see the relevance of your reference to being a Linux user: 
there is none. Surely this is the way to work independently of the 
operating system being used? (Or colour of computer? Or day of the week?)


Since you are capable enough to know exactly how best to act in this 
matter, surely you are a good enough teacher to bring your pupils up 
to your standard of use? You do them a disservice by allowing them 
only a poorer technique than your own.


Brian Barker  



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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Brian Barker]

At 10:23 29/04/2018 -0400, Tim Lungstrom wrote:
Last night, I was in the middle of a thread on the Linux Users Group 
on Facebook. There was a question in it about wondering how to get 
the users of Linux to save LibreOffice files to Microsoft Word 
formats. ... I double checked and gave him the answer.


I trust the answer was "Don't" - or at least "Do so only when 
essential, and never by default"!


Apart from the recommendations of a previous suggestion, note that 
some facilities of LibreOffice cannot be saved in Microsoft's 
proprietary formats and that converting to and fro into and out of 
formats foreign to LibreOffice - as is the case if you save in 
Microsoft's formats - is a recipe for document instability. What you 
see when you reopen a document may not be what you saw before you saved it.


Brian Barker  



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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Tom Williams]

On 04/29/2018 08:23 AM, James Knott wrote:
> On 04/29/2018 10:23 AM, Tim-L wrote:
>> There was a question in it about wondering how to get the users of
>> Linux to save LibreOffice files to Microsoft Word formats.
> Why would we want to, unless we had to?
>
To make it easier to more readily exchange documents with others.  I
don't help many LibreOffice on Linux users but I do help a number of
LibreOffice on Windows users and I usually configure LibreOffice to save
in Microsoft formats, by default.  Most of these people don't understand
different file formats and want to be able to "just send" files to
friends, family, or other members of a group or something.

Being a Linux user, myself, I save files in Microsoft format only when I
*know* I need to send a Word or Excel file to someone else.  Otherwise,
any files I need to send to people are saved as PDF.

I've never heard of the Linux Users Facebook Group until today.   :)

Peace...

"The Other" Tom


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/When I leave, I don't know what I'm hoping to find,
And when I leave, I don't know what I'm leaving behind.../

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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Luuk]

On 29-4-2018 17:23, James Knott wrote:
> On 04/29/2018 10:23 AM, Tim-L wrote:
>> There was a question in it about wondering how to get the users of
>> Linux to save LibreOffice files to Microsoft Word formats.
> Why would we want to, unless we had to?  The whole point of the Open
> Document formats was to be a non proprietary method that anyone can
> use.  Unlike MS formats, ODF is fully open.  Perhaps you should go to a
> site called Groklaw and read about all the nonsense with MS forcing
> their new spec through ISO, to make it a standard, when even their own
> implementation didn't comply with it.
>
>
> I use ODF formats unless I have a need to use MS, such as uploading
> documents to a web site that does not accept ODF.
>
>

You did forget to ask Tim-L what Facebook has to do with this problem ...

;)


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Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[James Knott]

On 04/29/2018 10:23 AM, Tim-L wrote:
> There was a question in it about wondering how to get the users of
> Linux to save LibreOffice files to Microsoft Word formats.

Why would we want to, unless we had to?  The whole point of the Open
Document formats was to be a non proprietary method that anyone can
use.  Unlike MS formats, ODF is fully open.  Perhaps you should go to a
site called Groklaw and read about all the nonsense with MS forcing
their new spec through ISO, to make it a standard, when even their own
implementation didn't comply with it.


I use ODF formats unless I have a need to use MS, such as uploading
documents to a web site that does not accept ODF.


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