Re: [xwiki-users] display page title and name(url) while creating a page

[Vishal]

Hi all..
Thanks for taking the issue this much seriously.

Hi Vincent..
> Hey, you’re from Pune? :) I’ve been there about 15 times!
Hey, you are welcome again.. I would expect you to drop me an email while
visiting Pune next time :)

> Normal users don't generally care about their URLs and SEO.
Hi Caty..
You are definitely correct about SEO as simple users don't even know what
SEO is.
But I am very sure that even simple users do care about URLs. For instance,
we share all our educational articles on our wiki in chats, like in
WhatsApp, Facebook, Gmail, and what not. And they often ask me to clean the
encoded URLs for them. In last 15 days for instance, I had to rename about
250 pages.. 
> I don’t fully agree with you. I have the feeling (can’t prove it)
And this is what Vincent felt but couldn't prove.

> But for your use case you shoyld write a shorting/trimming algorithm, but
> this is custom 
Yes I agree. It should be custom because not all will want such trimming of
URLs.

>It may generate nicer urls but they’re not perfect either. They’re a bit
longish from what I see
I think we can't and shouldn't force anyone to have short URLs. Long URL
doesn't seem a problem for us, but inability to shorten them in the first
place indeed is.
I disagree with having any shortening algorithm as even we do use full names
in URLs at certain places. e.g. /Pune-University

My Proposal:
I strongly agree with Vincent about Create Page UI like AWM. This is what we
think will be most user friendly. (Sorry, couldn't upload images but rough
layout)

*Title: (Tip: Title as shown on Page/Document)
[Title Textbox]

URL: (Tip: this is a webaddress)
[Textbox for last part of URL]

Location: (Tip: location of page in wiki)
[Documents tree/Parent]*

In above layout, we could use algorithm at URL section just to make them
more readable (removing ecoded characters), nothing else.

And it would be nice to have this universally editable, no need of any
options like ALWAYS, NEVER, etc. Also no need to restrict it to just
advanced users, because mostly users who could create a page would know
about URLs.

Very much thanks for this wonderful discussion.
Regards,
Vishal



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Re: [xwiki-users] display page title and name(url) while creating a page

[Vincent Massol]

> On 24 Apr 2017, at 12:31, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Users can change the URL anytime after the page creation, and that is using
> the "Rename" action, although I agree that simple users might not really
> see the connection between Rename, URLs and Titles. So yes it would be
> ideal to provide the ability to select (reserve) the URL from the creation
> page step (for steps optimization purposes).
> 
> Now, some important mention is the use case. From what I can assume from
> your answers, the majority of you have Wikis / Knowledge Bases. For this
> flavor the URLs are important and I quite get the need.
> The issue is for users that use XWiki for Groupware / Applications use
> case. When your instance is using heavily applications, you don't care
> about the URL is generating, you don't care about the nesting, etc. We had
> users that requested to never see the Page Name part and actually the
> ability to auto-generate the URL with some random numbers that they
> shouldn't see.

Which shows that they do care about the URL ;)

I don’t think that the need to be careful about your urls is related to any use 
case/flavor. Of course if you’re using XWiki as a public web site you care even 
more for the SEO reasons but even for internal use cases you do care about 
URLs. For the simple reason that you often need to copy paste URLs in emails, 
chat rooms, etc.

FTR I remember a lot more users asking to control URLs than users asking to 
have random numbers in the URL (AFAIK that one happened only once) so if we had 
to choose a default, I’d go with the ability to control URLs by default.

Actually, as mentioned in earlier replies, I’d go about introducing a Component 
role for generating the part of the URL related to the document and have a 
default implementation just serializing the document name as we do now. And 
provide a config option to change that so that if someone wanted, he could 
implement an extension to change the algorithm and generate a unique ID instead 
for ex.

> That's why the subject is a bit problematic, because some users want to
> see/alter the Page Name/ URL; while others don't care it exists.

Even those who don’t care about changing the URL know the concept of a URL and 
they know that XWiki has URLs. So it’s not because we would show it in the 
create page URL that they would get confused.

Thanks
-Vincent

> I also don't like the configuration proposal, since it's always hard to
> test all combinations of configurations and we need to decide on the
> default.
> Not sure about changing it in the Base Flavor, since not all Flavors users
> might need it. The UIX could be a solution in order to use it just by some
> Flavors.
> 
> What is really interesting and good to know is that indeed the Page Name /
> URL are important for Knowledge Bases (KB). Still in KBs the content
> creators are not that many (compared to readers) and they usually are the
> wiki gardeners, and they tend to be 'advanced' users.
> The smallest / simplest changes would indeed be in the labels wording and
> descriptions. Also the 'URL' mention instead of Page Name.
> 
> Thanks,
> Caty
> 
> 
> On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 8:23 AM, Vishal  wrote:
> 
>> Hi all..
>> Thanks for taking the issue this much seriously.
>> 
>> Hi Vincent..
>>> Hey, you’re from Pune? :) I’ve been there about 15 times!
>> Hey, you are welcome again.. I would expect you to drop me an email while
>> visiting Pune next time :)
>> 
>>> Normal users don't generally care about their URLs and SEO.
>> Hi Caty..
>> You are definitely correct about SEO as simple users don't even know what
>> SEO is.
>> But I am very sure that even simple users do care about URLs. For instance,
>> we share all our educational articles on our wiki in chats, like in
>> WhatsApp, Facebook, Gmail, and what not. And they often ask me to clean the
>> encoded URLs for them. In last 15 days for instance, I had to rename about
>> 250 pages..
>>> I don’t fully agree with you. I have the feeling (can’t prove it)
>> And I guess this is what Vincent felt but couldn't prove.
>> 
>>> But for your use case you shoyld write a shorting/trimming algorithm, but
>>> this is custom
>> Yes I agree. It should be custom because not all will want such trimming of
>> URLs.
>> 
>>> It may generate nicer urls but they’re not perfect either. They’re a bit
>> longish from what I see
>> I think we can't and shouldn't force anyone to have short URLs. Long URL
>> doesn't seem a problem for us, but inability to shorten them in the first
>> place indeed is.
>> I disagree with having any shortening algorithm as even we do use full
>> names
>> in URLs at certain places. e.g. /Pune-University
>> 
>> My Proposal:
>> I strongly agree with Vincent about Create Page UI like AWM. This is what
>> we
>> think will be most user friendly. (Sorry, couldn't upload images but rough
>> layout)
>> 
>> *Title: (Tip: Title as shown on Page/Document)
>> [Title 

Re: [xwiki-users] display page title and name(url) while creating a page

[Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)]

On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 8:02 PM, Mahomed Hussein <maho...@custodiandc.com>
wrote:

> I was just mocking up some samples of my recommendation (which I think
> possibly lines up with Vincent's points 2 and 3), when I realised that
> there already exists the UI to edit the Page URL. It's just not called that
> and I didn't remember seeing it. But I see that's probably what Caty was
> referring to :-)
>
> I feel like I am just catching up to the conversation :-)
>
> So just to re-cap
>
> 1) You can currently edit the location, but this is only for advanced
> users. (Maybe this can be a Wiki-wide setting instead of being tied to
> advanced users, even if it can only be set in the config file - screenshot
> https://snag.gy/vS4f3j.jpg). Personally I don't see why this needs to be
> an advanced user only feature, because if a user can create a page and
> decide what its parent page is, why can't they decide on the URL name? A
> wiki-wide setting will allow the Admin to make this decision on an all or
> nothing basis (rather than just the "nothing" option we have now).
>
> 2) The word "Name" and the description "Name of the new page" are not very
> clear. (I have made a recommendation in this screenshot -
> https://snag.gy/dlUK96.jpg)
>
> 3) I love the speakingurl suggestion and I hope you do implement it. I
> think it will give the best of both worlds. It will generate nicer URLs. I
> also agree with Vincent, many of the users *do* care about the URL. For
> example, we share URLs in emails and chat etc. and cross reference in
> documentation. This is one of the many uses where a nice URL is actually
> useful.
>
> Slightly off-topic, it's nice to see you (the XWiki devs) actually taking
> this seriously and discussing it here. It's very refreshing. So just wanted
> to say thanks for that.
>

Off-topic: I'm quite thrilled with the number or replies and opinions on
this thread. Maybe we should send / discuss more topics on the users list
(we usually discuss the UI proposals/changes on the devs list).

Thanks,
Caty


>
>
> Kind regards,
>
>
>
>
> Mahomed Hussein
> Custodian Data Centre
> Email: maho...@custodiandc.com
> http://www.CustodianDC.com
>
> -----Original Message-
> From: users [mailto:users-boun...@xwiki.org] On Behalf Of Vincent Massol
> Sent: 21 April 2017 16:56
> To: XWiki Users <users@xwiki.org>
> Subject: Re: [xwiki-users] display page title and name(url) while creating
> a page
>
> Hi again,
>
> > On 21 Apr 2017, at 17:33, Miroslav Galajda <miroslav.gala...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > this seems to be quite complicated and not complete.
> > This url-friendly problem does arise not only in page creation process
> > but also in page renaming.
> >
> > The other thing is that custom applications that are creating pages
> > would require to use different approax and will need to be customized
> separately.
> > The UIXP doesn't seems to solve the problem globally and I think
> > currently this is not the main/core part of the problem.
> >
> > I would like if this was built-in and deeply integrated into xwiki and
> > not to have it "only" optional. This is probably hard to quickly find
> > the solution right now.
> > As I said, the best solution would be built-in support such that it
> > will transparently replace user-entered page name with URL-friendly name.
>
> Yes there are 2 aspects. The built-in part is easy by doing 1) and having
> a default implementation that doesn’t do any transformation. Then an
> extension can contribute a new component overriding the default one to use
> a different algorithm.
>
> And this new API can be used in different places of XWiki (Create page,
> rename page, AWM-generated entries, etc).
>
> That’s mostly what I meant by 1) below.
>
> But for me this is not enough we also need to show the generated URL in
> the create page UI for example and that’s 2).
>
> Right now we don’t have an agreement from all xwiki devs that they’re ok
> to go with showing the generated URL hence the UIXP idea.
>
> If everyone agrees then the problem goes away and it can be built in the
> default UIs. There’s still the question of allowing the user to edit the
> last part of the URL but let’s consider it as a detail FTM.
>
> > The proposed first point, to have component and a script service for
> > converting strings to url-friendly strings, is the must have. This is
> > what I strongly agree about.
> > And it should provide some configuration in xwiki and it should take
> > into account the language in which the page is being created. The
> > spea

Re: [xwiki-users] display page title and name(url) while creating a page

[Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)]

Hi,

Users can change the URL anytime after the page creation, and that is using
the "Rename" action, although I agree that simple users might not really
see the connection between Rename, URLs and Titles. So yes it would be
ideal to provide the ability to select (reserve) the URL from the creation
page step (for steps optimization purposes).

Now, some important mention is the use case. From what I can assume from
your answers, the majority of you have Wikis / Knowledge Bases. For this
flavor the URLs are important and I quite get the need.
The issue is for users that use XWiki for Groupware / Applications use
case. When your instance is using heavily applications, you don't care
about the URL is generating, you don't care about the nesting, etc. We had
users that requested to never see the Page Name part and actually the
ability to auto-generate the URL with some random numbers that they
shouldn't see.

That's why the subject is a bit problematic, because some users want to
see/alter the Page Name/ URL; while others don't care it exists.

I also don't like the configuration proposal, since it's always hard to
test all combinations of configurations and we need to decide on the
default.
Not sure about changing it in the Base Flavor, since not all Flavors users
might need it. The UIX could be a solution in order to use it just by some
Flavors.

What is really interesting and good to know is that indeed the Page Name /
URL are important for Knowledge Bases (KB). Still in KBs the content
creators are not that many (compared to readers) and they usually are the
wiki gardeners, and they tend to be 'advanced' users.

The smallest / simplest changes would indeed be in the labels wording and
descriptions. Also the 'URL' mention instead of Page Name.

Thanks,
Caty


On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 8:23 AM, Vishal  wrote:

> Hi all..
> Thanks for taking the issue this much seriously.
>
> Hi Vincent..
> > Hey, you’re from Pune? :) I’ve been there about 15 times!
> Hey, you are welcome again.. I would expect you to drop me an email while
> visiting Pune next time :)
>
> > Normal users don't generally care about their URLs and SEO.
> Hi Caty..
> You are definitely correct about SEO as simple users don't even know what
> SEO is.
> But I am very sure that even simple users do care about URLs. For instance,
> we share all our educational articles on our wiki in chats, like in
> WhatsApp, Facebook, Gmail, and what not. And they often ask me to clean the
> encoded URLs for them. In last 15 days for instance, I had to rename about
> 250 pages..
> > I don’t fully agree with you. I have the feeling (can’t prove it)
> And I guess this is what Vincent felt but couldn't prove.
>
> > But for your use case you shoyld write a shorting/trimming algorithm, but
> > this is custom
> Yes I agree. It should be custom because not all will want such trimming of
> URLs.
>
> >It may generate nicer urls but they’re not perfect either. They’re a bit
> longish from what I see
> I think we can't and shouldn't force anyone to have short URLs. Long URL
> doesn't seem a problem for us, but inability to shorten them in the first
> place indeed is.
> I disagree with having any shortening algorithm as even we do use full
> names
> in URLs at certain places. e.g. /Pune-University
>
> My Proposal:
> I strongly agree with Vincent about Create Page UI like AWM. This is what
> we
> think will be most user friendly. (Sorry, couldn't upload images but rough
> layout)
>
> *Title: (Tip: Title as shown on Page/Document)
> [Title Textbox]
>
> URL: (Tip: this is a webaddress)
> [Non editable initial part of URL][Textbox for last part of URL]
>
> Location: (Tip: location of page in wiki)
> [Documents tree/Parent]*
>
> In above layout, we could use algorithm at URL section just to make them
> more readable (removing ecoded characters), nothing else.
>
> And it would be nice to have this universally editable, no need of any
> options like ALWAYS, NEVER, etc. Also no need to restrict it to just
> advanced users, because mostly users who could create a page would know
> about URLs.
>
> Very much thanks for this wonderful discussion.
> Regards,
> Vishal
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://xwiki.475771.n2.nabble.
> com/Page-Title-and-Name-confusion-tp7603546p7603588.html
> Sent from the XWiki- Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>

Re: [xwiki-users] display page title and name(url) while creating a page

[Vishal]

Hi all..
Thanks for taking the issue this much seriously.

Hi Vincent..
> Hey, you’re from Pune? :) I’ve been there about 15 times!
Hey, you are welcome again.. I would expect you to drop me an email while
visiting Pune next time :)

> Normal users don't generally care about their URLs and SEO.
Hi Caty..
You are definitely correct about SEO as simple users don't even know what
SEO is.
But I am very sure that even simple users do care about URLs. For instance,
we share all our educational articles on our wiki in chats, like in
WhatsApp, Facebook, Gmail, and what not. And they often ask me to clean the
encoded URLs for them. In last 15 days for instance, I had to rename about
250 pages..
> I don’t fully agree with you. I have the feeling (can’t prove it)
And I guess this is what Vincent felt but couldn't prove.

> But for your use case you shoyld write a shorting/trimming algorithm, but
> this is custom
Yes I agree. It should be custom because not all will want such trimming of
URLs.

>It may generate nicer urls but they’re not perfect either. They’re a bit
longish from what I see
I think we can't and shouldn't force anyone to have short URLs. Long URL
doesn't seem a problem for us, but inability to shorten them in the first
place indeed is.
I disagree with having any shortening algorithm as even we do use full names
in URLs at certain places. e.g. /Pune-University

My Proposal:
I strongly agree with Vincent about Create Page UI like AWM. This is what we
think will be most user friendly. (Sorry, couldn't upload images but rough
layout)

*Title: (Tip: Title as shown on Page/Document)
[Title Textbox]

URL: (Tip: this is a webaddress)
[Non editable initial part of URL][Textbox for last part of URL]

Location: (Tip: location of page in wiki)
[Documents tree/Parent]*

In above layout, we could use algorithm at URL section just to make them
more readable (removing ecoded characters), nothing else.

And it would be nice to have this universally editable, no need of any
options like ALWAYS, NEVER, etc. Also no need to restrict it to just
advanced users, because mostly users who could create a page would know
about URLs.

Very much thanks for this wonderful discussion.
Regards,
Vishal 



--
View this message in context: 
http://xwiki.475771.n2.nabble.com/Page-Title-and-Name-confusion-tp7603546p7603588.html
Sent from the XWiki- Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Re: [xwiki-users] display page title and name(url) while creating a page

[Vincent Massol]

Hi Mahomed/all,

> On 21 Apr 2017, at 19:02, Mahomed Hussein <maho...@custodiandc.com> wrote:
> 
> I was just mocking up some samples of my recommendation (which I think 
> possibly lines up with Vincent's points 2 and 3), when I realised that there 
> already exists the UI to edit the Page URL. It's just not called that and I 
> didn't remember seeing it. But I see that's probably what Caty was referring 
> to :-)

Yep, that’s available for advanced users only, see:
http://platform.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Features/DocumentLifecycle#HByusingtheAddPageaction

> I feel like I am just catching up to the conversation :-)
> 
> So just to re-cap
> 
> 1) You can currently edit the location, but this is only for advanced users. 
> (Maybe this can be a Wiki-wide setting instead of being tied to advanced 
> users, even if it can only be set in the config file - screenshot 
> https://snag.gy/vS4f3j.jpg). Personally I don't see why this needs to be an 
> advanced user only feature, because if a user can create a page and decide 
> what its parent page is, why can't they decide on the URL name? A wiki-wide 
> setting will allow the Admin to make this decision on an all or nothing basis 
> (rather than just the "nothing" option we have now).

The reason it’s advanced was explained in this thread earlier on. In short Page 
name and Page title were too confusing.

As I mentioned if rename Page name into Page URL, I feel it would be less 
confusing for users and we could remove the need to be advanced user.

> 2) The word "Name" and the description "Name of the new page" are not very 
> clear. (I have made a recommendation in this screenshot - 
> https://snag.gy/dlUK96.jpg)

Yes, it’s better. I would go further and display the generated URL in the UI as 
we do for AWM (see 
http://extensions.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Extension/App%20Within%20Minutes%20Application/AppWithinMinutes-Step1.png).

I would also display the last part of the URL in an input text so that the user 
can change it simply. Thus without being an advanced user.

I would keep the pencil icon for advanced users and maybe even keep the page 
name field there but have it in sync with the URL to show that the page name is 
used in the URL (again only for advanced users).

> 3) I love the speakingurl suggestion and I hope you do implement it. I think 
> it will give the best of both worlds. It will generate nicer URLs.

It may generate nicer urls but they’re not perfect either. They’re a bit 
longish from what I see and IMO we still need to give more control to the user 
if they want shorter URLs for example.

> I also agree with Vincent, many of the users *do* care about the URL. For 
> example, we share URLs in emails and chat etc. and cross reference in 
> documentation. This is one of the many uses where a nice URL is actually 
> useful.
> 
> Slightly off-topic, it's nice to see you (the XWiki devs) actually taking 
> this seriously and discussing it here. It's very refreshing. So just wanted 
> to say thanks for that.

Cool :)

I’d love to see more xwiki devs provide their opinion!

Thanks
-Vincent

> Kind regards,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mahomed Hussein
> Custodian Data Centre
> Email: maho...@custodiandc.com
> http://www.CustodianDC.com
> 
> -Original Message-----
> From: users [mailto:users-boun...@xwiki.org] On Behalf Of Vincent Massol
> Sent: 21 April 2017 16:56
> To: XWiki Users <users@xwiki.org>
> Subject: Re: [xwiki-users] display page title and name(url) while creating a 
> page
> 
> Hi again,
> 
>> On 21 Apr 2017, at 17:33, Miroslav Galajda <miroslav.gala...@gmail.com> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> this seems to be quite complicated and not complete.
>> This url-friendly problem does arise not only in page creation process
>> but also in page renaming.
>> 
>> The other thing is that custom applications that are creating pages
>> would require to use different approax and will need to be customized 
>> separately.
>> The UIXP doesn't seems to solve the problem globally and I think
>> currently this is not the main/core part of the problem.
>> 
>> I would like if this was built-in and deeply integrated into xwiki and
>> not to have it "only" optional. This is probably hard to quickly find
>> the solution right now.
>> As I said, the best solution would be built-in support such that it
>> will transparently replace user-entered page name with URL-friendly name.
> 
> Yes there are 2 aspects. The built-in part is easy by doing 1) and having a 
> default implementation that doesn’t do any transformation. Then an extension 
> can contribute a new component overriding the default one to use a different 
> algorith

Re: [xwiki-users] display page title and name(url) while creating a page

[Mahomed Hussein]

I was just mocking up some samples of my recommendation (which I think possibly 
lines up with Vincent's points 2 and 3), when I realised that there already 
exists the UI to edit the Page URL. It's just not called that and I didn't 
remember seeing it. But I see that's probably what Caty was referring to :-)

I feel like I am just catching up to the conversation :-)

So just to re-cap

1) You can currently edit the location, but this is only for advanced users. 
(Maybe this can be a Wiki-wide setting instead of being tied to advanced users, 
even if it can only be set in the config file - screenshot 
https://snag.gy/vS4f3j.jpg). Personally I don't see why this needs to be an 
advanced user only feature, because if a user can create a page and decide what 
its parent page is, why can't they decide on the URL name? A wiki-wide setting 
will allow the Admin to make this decision on an all or nothing basis (rather 
than just the "nothing" option we have now).

2) The word "Name" and the description "Name of the new page" are not very 
clear. (I have made a recommendation in this screenshot - 
https://snag.gy/dlUK96.jpg)

3) I love the speakingurl suggestion and I hope you do implement it. I think it 
will give the best of both worlds. It will generate nicer URLs. I also agree 
with Vincent, many of the users *do* care about the URL. For example, we share 
URLs in emails and chat etc. and cross reference in documentation. This is one 
of the many uses where a nice URL is actually useful.

Slightly off-topic, it's nice to see you (the XWiki devs) actually taking this 
seriously and discussing it here. It's very refreshing. So just wanted to say 
thanks for that.


Kind regards,




Mahomed Hussein
Custodian Data Centre
Email: maho...@custodiandc.com
http://www.CustodianDC.com

-Original Message-
From: users [mailto:users-boun...@xwiki.org] On Behalf Of Vincent Massol
Sent: 21 April 2017 16:56
To: XWiki Users <users@xwiki.org>
Subject: Re: [xwiki-users] display page title and name(url) while creating a 
page

Hi again,

> On 21 Apr 2017, at 17:33, Miroslav Galajda <miroslav.gala...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> this seems to be quite complicated and not complete.
> This url-friendly problem does arise not only in page creation process
> but also in page renaming.
>
> The other thing is that custom applications that are creating pages
> would require to use different approax and will need to be customized 
> separately.
> The UIXP doesn't seems to solve the problem globally and I think
> currently this is not the main/core part of the problem.
>
> I would like if this was built-in and deeply integrated into xwiki and
> not to have it "only" optional. This is probably hard to quickly find
> the solution right now.
> As I said, the best solution would be built-in support such that it
> will transparently replace user-entered page name with URL-friendly name.

Yes there are 2 aspects. The built-in part is easy by doing 1) and having a 
default implementation that doesn’t do any transformation. Then an extension 
can contribute a new component overriding the default one to use a different 
algorithm.

And this new API can be used in different places of XWiki (Create page, rename 
page, AWM-generated entries, etc).

That’s mostly what I meant by 1) below.

But for me this is not enough we also need to show the generated URL in the 
create page UI for example and that’s 2).

Right now we don’t have an agreement from all xwiki devs that they’re ok to go 
with showing the generated URL hence the UIXP idea.

If everyone agrees then the problem goes away and it can be built in the 
default UIs. There’s still the question of allowing the user to edit the last 
part of the URL but let’s consider it as a detail FTM.

> The proposed first point, to have component and a script service for
> converting strings to url-friendly strings, is the must have. This is
> what I strongly agree about.
> And it should provide some configuration in xwiki and it should take
> into account the language in which the page is being created. The
> speakingurl, aforementioned solution, works with language and provides
> quite a lot of customization.

Yep.

> Then this script service could be directly used in createinline.vm and
> other .vm files. Don't know about generally solving url-friendly thing
> in the custom applications.

Thanks
-Vincent

> Best regards
> Miroslav Galajda
>
>
> On 21 April 2017 at 16:45, Vincent Massol <vinc...@massol.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>> On 21 Apr 2017, at 16:19, Miroslav Galajda
>>> <miroslav.gala...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi, the slugify is different component than speakingurl, but
>>> currently it doesn't matter on this.
>>>
>>> Ok, how would we solve this globally?

Re: [xwiki-users] display page title and name(url) while creating a page

[Vincent Massol]

Hi again,

> On 21 Apr 2017, at 17:33, Miroslav Galajda  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> this seems to be quite complicated and not complete.
> This url-friendly problem does arise not only in page creation process but
> also in page renaming.
> 
> The other thing is that custom applications that are creating pages would
> require to use different approax and will need to be customized separately.
> The UIXP doesn't seems to solve the problem globally and I think currently
> this is not the main/core part of the problem.
> 
> I would like if this was built-in and deeply integrated into xwiki and not
> to have it "only" optional. This is probably hard to quickly find the
> solution right now.
> As I said, the best solution would be built-in support such that it will
> transparently replace user-entered page name with URL-friendly name.

Yes there are 2 aspects. The built-in part is easy by doing 1) and having a 
default implementation that doesn’t do any transformation. Then an extension 
can contribute a new component overriding the default one to use a different 
algorithm.

And this new API can be used in different places of XWiki (Create page, rename 
page, AWM-generated entries, etc).

That’s mostly what I meant by 1) below.

But for me this is not enough we also need to show the generated URL in the 
create page UI for example and that’s 2).

Right now we don’t have an agreement from all xwiki devs that they’re ok to go 
with showing the generated URL hence the UIXP idea.

If everyone agrees then the problem goes away and it can be built in the 
default UIs. There’s still the question of allowing the user to edit the last 
part of the URL but let’s consider it as a detail FTM.

> The proposed first point, to have component and a script service for
> converting strings to url-friendly strings, is the must have. This is what
> I strongly agree about.
> And it should provide some configuration in xwiki and it should take into
> account the language in which the page is being created. The speakingurl,
> aforementioned solution, works with language and provides quite a lot of
> customization.

Yep.

> Then this script service could be directly used in createinline.vm and
> other .vm files. Don't know about generally solving url-friendly thing in
> the custom applications.

Thanks
-Vincent

> Best regards
> Miroslav Galajda
> 
> 
> On 21 April 2017 at 16:45, Vincent Massol  wrote:
> 
>> 
>>> On 21 Apr 2017, at 16:19, Miroslav Galajda 
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi, the slugify is different component than speakingurl, but currently it
>>> doesn't matter on this.
>>> 
>>> Ok, how would we solve this globally? Not only in default page creation
>>> process but also in custom applications, that create pages in their own.
>>> For example the FAQ uses this code to redirect to new FAQ page after
>>> entering question name:
>>> #set ($newFAQReference = $services.model.createDocumentReference('', '',
>>> "$question"))
>>> $response.sendRedirect($xwiki.getURL($newFAQReference, 'inline',
>>> "$!{request.queryString}=${escapetool.url($question)}"))
>>> 
>>> The solution you propose will be transparent for this code or will it
>>> require som modifications?
>> 
>> My proposal is to do 2 things:
>> 
>> 1) Introduce some new Component in XWiki Platform. I don’t know where. It
>> could be inside some existing modules in https://github.com/xwiki/
>> xwiki-platform/tree/master/xwiki-platform-core or introduce a new one in
>> there.
>> 
>> So a Component + a Script Service so that it can be accessed from wiki
>> pages inside scripts (velocity, groovy, etc).
>> 
>> This should cater for the need to be able to use it from anywhere.
>> 
>> It’s basically a clean up/transformation of String into something
>> human-readable.
>> 
>> 2) Introduce a UIXP inside createinline.vm to allow extenders to
>> contribute some sections in the Create UI. Actually the current “Location”
>> section could even be refactored to be implemented using a UIX for this
>> UIXP. Several UIX could be contributed with an order and they’d appear in
>> the defined order.
>> 
>> For more on UIXP, see http://extensions.xwiki.org/
>> xwiki/bin/view/Extension/UIExtension%20Module and to see existing ones
>> see http://platform.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/ExtensionPoint/
>> 
>> 3) You could then implement an optional UIX to introduce a new URL section
>> that would use 1) to display what URL would be used for example. It could
>> also let the user modify the last part of the URL.
>> 
>> What I haven’t thought about yet is how this UIX will pass back the
>> document name to createinline.vm. Maybe these UIX would be allowed to
>> modify variables in the Velocity/Script context and that would be enough.
>> 
>> It probably needs to be brainstormed a bit more but this is the idea I
>> have so far. I’d also like to have @Caty’s POV on the UI aspect/Layout of
>> such a UIXP concept.
>> 
>> WDYT Miroslav?
>> 
>> Thanks

Re: [xwiki-users] display page title and name(url) while creating a page

[Miroslav Galajda]

Hi,

this seems to be quite complicated and not complete.
This url-friendly problem does arise not only in page creation process but
also in page renaming.

The other thing is that custom applications that are creating pages would
require to use different approax and will need to be customized separately.
The UIXP doesn't seems to solve the problem globally and I think currently
this is not the main/core part of the problem.

I would like if this was built-in and deeply integrated into xwiki and not
to have it "only" optional. This is probably hard to quickly find the
solution right now.
As I said, the best solution would be built-in support such that it will
transparently replace user-entered page name with URL-friendly name.

The proposed first point, to have component and a script service for
converting strings to url-friendly strings, is the must have. This is what
I strongly agree about.
And it should provide some configuration in xwiki and it should take into
account the language in which the page is being created. The speakingurl,
aforementioned solution, works with language and provides quite a lot of
customization.
Then this script service could be directly used in createinline.vm and
other .vm files. Don't know about generally solving url-friendly thing in
the custom applications.

Best regards
Miroslav Galajda


On 21 April 2017 at 16:45, Vincent Massol  wrote:

>
> > On 21 Apr 2017, at 16:19, Miroslav Galajda 
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, the slugify is different component than speakingurl, but currently it
> > doesn't matter on this.
> >
> > Ok, how would we solve this globally? Not only in default page creation
> > process but also in custom applications, that create pages in their own.
> > For example the FAQ uses this code to redirect to new FAQ page after
> > entering question name:
> > #set ($newFAQReference = $services.model.createDocumentReference('', '',
> > "$question"))
> > $response.sendRedirect($xwiki.getURL($newFAQReference, 'inline',
> > "$!{request.queryString}=${escapetool.url($question)}"))
> >
> > The solution you propose will be transparent for this code or will it
> > require som modifications?
>
> My proposal is to do 2 things:
>
> 1) Introduce some new Component in XWiki Platform. I don’t know where. It
> could be inside some existing modules in https://github.com/xwiki/
> xwiki-platform/tree/master/xwiki-platform-core or introduce a new one in
> there.
>
> So a Component + a Script Service so that it can be accessed from wiki
> pages inside scripts (velocity, groovy, etc).
>
> This should cater for the need to be able to use it from anywhere.
>
> It’s basically a clean up/transformation of String into something
> human-readable.
>
> 2) Introduce a UIXP inside createinline.vm to allow extenders to
> contribute some sections in the Create UI. Actually the current “Location”
> section could even be refactored to be implemented using a UIX for this
> UIXP. Several UIX could be contributed with an order and they’d appear in
> the defined order.
>
> For more on UIXP, see http://extensions.xwiki.org/
> xwiki/bin/view/Extension/UIExtension%20Module and to see existing ones
> see http://platform.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/ExtensionPoint/
>
> 3) You could then implement an optional UIX to introduce a new URL section
> that would use 1) to display what URL would be used for example. It could
> also let the user modify the last part of the URL.
>
> What I haven’t thought about yet is how this UIX will pass back the
> document name to createinline.vm. Maybe these UIX would be allowed to
> modify variables in the Velocity/Script context and that would be enough.
>
> It probably needs to be brainstormed a bit more but this is the idea I
> have so far. I’d also like to have @Caty’s POV on the UI aspect/Layout of
> such a UIXP concept.
>
> WDYT Miroslav?
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
> >
> > On 21 April 2017 at 16:00, Vincent Massol  wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>> On 21 Apr 2017, at 15:36, Miroslav Galajda  >
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hi,
> >>> the solution I've described is javascript based and runs on
> client-side.
> >>> From what I know, the component-based solution, which you propose,
> would
> >>> require to have url-friendly conversion component usable in java and
> not
> >> as
> >>> javascript code. Am I right?
> >>
> >> Yes you’re right but:
> >>
> >> 1) There’s also a Java API, see https://github.com/slugify/slugify
> >> 2) If we also offer a UIX then it can be implemented in a wiki page for
> >> example and you can use JS.
> >>
> >> Thanks
> >> -Vincent
> >>
> >>> On 21 April 2017 at 15:28, Vincent Massol  wrote:
> >>>
>  Hi Miroslav,
> 
> > On 21 Apr 2017, at 15:05, Miroslav Galajda <
> miroslav.gala...@gmail.com
> >>>
>  wrote:
> >
> > Hi, let me enter into this conversion.
> > Some time ago I've asked for help how to solve problem with
> diacritics
>  

Re: [xwiki-users] display page title and name(url) while creating a page

[Vincent Massol]

> On 21 Apr 2017, at 16:19, Miroslav Galajda  wrote:
> 
> Hi, the slugify is different component than speakingurl, but currently it
> doesn't matter on this.
> 
> Ok, how would we solve this globally? Not only in default page creation
> process but also in custom applications, that create pages in their own.
> For example the FAQ uses this code to redirect to new FAQ page after
> entering question name:
> #set ($newFAQReference = $services.model.createDocumentReference('', '',
> "$question"))
> $response.sendRedirect($xwiki.getURL($newFAQReference, 'inline',
> "$!{request.queryString}=${escapetool.url($question)}"))
> 
> The solution you propose will be transparent for this code or will it
> require som modifications?

My proposal is to do 2 things:

1) Introduce some new Component in XWiki Platform. I don’t know where. It could 
be inside some existing modules in 
https://github.com/xwiki/xwiki-platform/tree/master/xwiki-platform-core or 
introduce a new one in there.

So a Component + a Script Service so that it can be accessed from wiki pages 
inside scripts (velocity, groovy, etc).

This should cater for the need to be able to use it from anywhere.

It’s basically a clean up/transformation of String into something 
human-readable.

2) Introduce a UIXP inside createinline.vm to allow extenders to contribute 
some sections in the Create UI. Actually the current “Location” section could 
even be refactored to be implemented using a UIX for this UIXP. Several UIX 
could be contributed with an order and they’d appear in the defined order.

For more on UIXP, see 
http://extensions.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Extension/UIExtension%20Module and 
to see existing ones see 
http://platform.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/ExtensionPoint/

3) You could then implement an optional UIX to introduce a new URL section that 
would use 1) to display what URL would be used for example. It could also let 
the user modify the last part of the URL.

What I haven’t thought about yet is how this UIX will pass back the document 
name to createinline.vm. Maybe these UIX would be allowed to modify variables 
in the Velocity/Script context and that would be enough.

It probably needs to be brainstormed a bit more but this is the idea I have so 
far. I’d also like to have @Caty’s POV on the UI aspect/Layout of such a UIXP 
concept.

WDYT Miroslav?

Thanks
-Vincent

> 
> On 21 April 2017 at 16:00, Vincent Massol  wrote:
> 
>> 
>>> On 21 Apr 2017, at 15:36, Miroslav Galajda 
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> the solution I've described is javascript based and runs on client-side.
>>> From what I know, the component-based solution, which you propose, would
>>> require to have url-friendly conversion component usable in java and not
>> as
>>> javascript code. Am I right?
>> 
>> Yes you’re right but:
>> 
>> 1) There’s also a Java API, see https://github.com/slugify/slugify
>> 2) If we also offer a UIX then it can be implemented in a wiki page for
>> example and you can use JS.
>> 
>> Thanks
>> -Vincent
>> 
>>> On 21 April 2017 at 15:28, Vincent Massol  wrote:
>>> 
 Hi Miroslav,
 
> On 21 Apr 2017, at 15:05, Miroslav Galajda >> 
 wrote:
> 
> Hi, let me enter into this conversion.
> Some time ago I've asked for help how to solve problem with diacritics
 (or
> accents) in page names when creating new pages so that the have
> url-friendly names. You can search for "strip accents from page name
>> used
> in url" in xwiki users mailing list. I've got no hint or solution from
> xwiki community till today.
> 
> I've come with solution that ensures for simple users, creating
> url-friendly names without requiring them to think about the concept of
 the
> page name or page title. They simple enter the desired human readably
 page
> name, and in the code behind of the page creation, I have made some
> modifications in createinline.vm to hook into page creation process.
>> The
> modifications are mainly javascript based, where I've attache to submit
> event of the "form#create", where I replace the entered "title" with
>> the
> one for url-friendly. And for url-friendly name I've used this
>> javascript
> based solution on https://pid.github.io/speakingurl/.
> I've integrated this principle also into page creation process of FAQ
>> and
> Blog applications, which we are using in our xwiki installation.
> 
> It would be nice if you could integrate this principle into xwiki so
>> that
> everyone can have nice url-friendly urls without worring about it. It
>> is
> also suitable for english speaking users. You don't have to worry about
> entering spaces or other non-url allowed characters, which make url
>> look
> ugly.
 
 That looks very nice!
 
 One way forward I could think about:
 * We provide 

Re: [xwiki-users] display page title and name(url) while creating a page

[Mahomed Hussein]

The fact that the default would be “Never” in your proposal above wouldn’t help 
that much since by default users wouldn’t be able to control the URLs and thus 
you’d need to educate everyone that they need to turn this on. It’s quite 
similar to telling your users to be Advanced users.


Sorry, I think I wasn't clear. I meant that it would be a Wiki-wide setting 
(hence being a setting in the XWiki Administration). So changing this option 
would apply the same option to every user.


Kind regards,




Mahomed Hussein
Custodian Data Centre
Email: maho...@custodiandc.com
http://www.CustodianDC.com

-Original Message-
From: users [mailto:users-boun...@xwiki.org] On Behalf Of Vincent Massol
Sent: 21 April 2017 12:59
To: XWiki Users <users@xwiki.org>
Subject: Re: [xwiki-users] display page title and name(url) while creating a 
page

Hi Mahomed,

> On 21 Apr 2017, at 13:50, Mahomed Hussein <maho...@custodiandc.com> wrote:
>
> This is quite an interesting discussion and I'd like to add a few points if 
> you don't mind.
>
> When we first started using XWiki, our users did comment about the really 
> long URLs that were being generated from the Title. But as our XWiki is 
> internal only for documentation, I kind of brushed it off with "That's just 
> the way it works".
>
> But I agree that in some cases it would be good to be able to edit the
> resulting URL. Both for us, and obviously for other users. :-)
>
> In regards of how to achieve this, I'd like to propose a half-way 
> house/compromise.
>
> Firstly, create an Admin option in the Admin control panel to the effect of:
>
> "Allow users to edit the Page URL when creating new pages"
> - Always
> - Optional
> - Never (Default)

Thanks for participating to the discussion!  :) We need the max # of users to 
provide an opinion.

The fact that the default would be “Never” in your proposal above wouldn’t help 
that much since by default users wouldn’t be able to control the URLs and thus 
you’d need to educate everyone that they need to turn this on. It’s quite 
similar to telling your users to be Advanced users.

Now, what could be done is having some Admin settings for the defaults when a 
user account is created in your wiki. It’s just a bit more work and the Admin 
would still to know about this and thus it’s extra knowledge/complexity to use 
XWiki.

Now we would need to do something like this if we cannot agree that in all 
cases it’s ok to have the URL displayed in the Create page. If we agree that 
it’s fine then this config option is not required.

Thanks
-Vincent

> Then on the create page, you would have the following "minor" changes
> (I say minor because changes are always minor to the person who is not
> doing the programming ;-)  )
>
> If the Admin option is "Never" then the create page remains as it is.
>
> If the Admin option is "Optional" then there should be a link/button under 
> Title that is called "Edit Page URL". This would be an extra button on the 
> current create page form. When the user clicks the button/link, they then get 
> another text box in which to specify the URL parameter.
>
> If the Admin option is "Always" then the create page will show "Page Title" 
> (as it is currently) and will also show the "Page URL" text box. Ideally, 
> this Page URL text box should be auto-populated with the proposed 
> auto-generated name from the title (unless the Page URL is edited before the 
> Page Title). Obviously you'll have to do a few other checks to make sure it's 
> a valid entry for a URL in both cases (but you may have this already from the 
> old version where both options always showed).
>
>
> I also recommend that the current description text for Title is changed from 
> the very short "Title of the new page"
> to
> "This is Title Heading shown at the top of the document when viewed. The Page 
> URL is auto-generated from this title"
>
>
> Kind regards,
>
>
>
>
> Mahomed Hussein
> Custodian Data Centre
> Email: maho...@custodiandc.com
> http://www.CustodianDC.com
>
> -Original Message-
> From: users [mailto:users-boun...@xwiki.org] On Behalf Of Vincent
> Massol
> Sent: 21 April 2017 12:16
> To: XWiki Users <users@xwiki.org>
> Subject: Re: [xwiki-users] display page title and name(url) while
> creating a page
>
> Hi Caty,
>
>> On 21 Apr 2017, at 12:44, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <vali...@gmail.com> 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Let's see what variants we have:
>>
>> 1. Instead of displaying "Title", display the "Name" instead.
>> This won't solve anything. There is no difference between Page Name
>> and Page Title for the normal

Re: [xwiki-users] display page title and name(url) while creating a page

[Miroslav Galajda]

Hi, the slugify is different component than speakingurl, but currently it
doesn't matter on this.

Ok, how would we solve this globally? Not only in default page creation
process but also in custom applications, that create pages in their own.
For example the FAQ uses this code to redirect to new FAQ page after
entering question name:
#set ($newFAQReference = $services.model.createDocumentReference('', '',
"$question"))
$response.sendRedirect($xwiki.getURL($newFAQReference, 'inline',
"$!{request.queryString}=${escapetool.url($question)}"))

The solution you propose will be transparent for this code or will it
require som modifications?

On 21 April 2017 at 16:00, Vincent Massol  wrote:

>
> > On 21 Apr 2017, at 15:36, Miroslav Galajda 
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> > the solution I've described is javascript based and runs on client-side.
> > From what I know, the component-based solution, which you propose, would
> > require to have url-friendly conversion component usable in java and not
> as
> > javascript code. Am I right?
>
> Yes you’re right but:
>
> 1) There’s also a Java API, see https://github.com/slugify/slugify
> 2) If we also offer a UIX then it can be implemented in a wiki page for
> example and you can use JS.
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
> > On 21 April 2017 at 15:28, Vincent Massol  wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Miroslav,
> >>
> >>> On 21 Apr 2017, at 15:05, Miroslav Galajda  >
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hi, let me enter into this conversion.
> >>> Some time ago I've asked for help how to solve problem with diacritics
> >> (or
> >>> accents) in page names when creating new pages so that the have
> >>> url-friendly names. You can search for "strip accents from page name
> used
> >>> in url" in xwiki users mailing list. I've got no hint or solution from
> >>> xwiki community till today.
> >>>
> >>> I've come with solution that ensures for simple users, creating
> >>> url-friendly names without requiring them to think about the concept of
> >> the
> >>> page name or page title. They simple enter the desired human readably
> >> page
> >>> name, and in the code behind of the page creation, I have made some
> >>> modifications in createinline.vm to hook into page creation process.
> The
> >>> modifications are mainly javascript based, where I've attache to submit
> >>> event of the "form#create", where I replace the entered "title" with
> the
> >>> one for url-friendly. And for url-friendly name I've used this
> javascript
> >>> based solution on https://pid.github.io/speakingurl/.
> >>> I've integrated this principle also into page creation process of FAQ
> and
> >>> Blog applications, which we are using in our xwiki installation.
> >>>
> >>> It would be nice if you could integrate this principle into xwiki so
> that
> >>> everyone can have nice url-friendly urls without worring about it. It
> is
> >>> also suitable for english speaking users. You don't have to worry about
> >>> entering spaces or other non-url allowed characters, which make url
> look
> >>> ugly.
> >>
> >> That looks very nice!
> >>
> >> One way forward I could think about:
> >> * We provide some Create script service to return a URL-friendly string.
> >> We introduce a component role for this. We refactor createinline.vm to
> use
> >> it and to display the URL.
> >> * You could then contribute your code as an extension that we make
> >> available on extensions.xwiki.org for users to install
> >> * We decide later on if we want to bundle it by default
> >>
> >> If we don’t agree about displaying the URL by default all the time then
> an
> >> option is to introduce a UIX in createinline.vm for that. And this
> could be
> >> implemented in your extension too for example or by default in XWiki
> >> (possibly with an Admin setting).
> >>
> >> WDYT?
> >>
> >> Thanks
> >> -Vincent
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Thank you
> >>>
> >>> Best regards
> >>> Miroslav Galajda
> >>>
> >>> On 21 April 2017 at 14:02, Vincent Massol  wrote:
> >>>
> 
> > On 21 Apr 2017, at 13:52, Marius Dumitru Florea <
>  mariusdumitru.flo...@xwiki.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 2:16 PM, Vincent Massol 
>  wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Caty,
> >>
> >>> On 21 Apr 2017, at 12:44, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <
> >> vali...@gmail.com
> >
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Let's see what variants we have:
> >>>
> >>> 1. Instead of displaying "Title", display the "Name" instead.
> >>> This won't solve anything. There is no difference between Page Name
> >> and
> >>> Page Title for the normal users. Seeing "Name" instead of "Title",
> >> will
> >> not
> >>> stop the users to enter spaces if they want, so the URL will still
> >> have
> >>> those spaces. We don't force the Page Names to trim spaces.
> >>>
> >>> One quick solution here is indeed to use "URL" label instead of
> >> "Name".
> >> 

Re: [xwiki-users] display page title and name(url) while creating a page

[Denis GERMAIN]

Jumping abord conversation, the URL friendly links part looks promising !

Users in my company tend to add a lot of special characters in their pages,
and having an option to strip those would really be useful for us.

I'm afraid I've not read the rest of the conversation so I won't bother you
further ;-)

Regards
Denis GERMAIN

2017-04-21 16:00 GMT+02:00 Vincent Massol :

>
> > On 21 Apr 2017, at 15:36, Miroslav Galajda 
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> > the solution I've described is javascript based and runs on client-side.
> > From what I know, the component-based solution, which you propose, would
> > require to have url-friendly conversion component usable in java and not
> as
> > javascript code. Am I right?
>
> Yes you’re right but:
>
> 1) There’s also a Java API, see https://github.com/slugify/slugify
> 2) If we also offer a UIX then it can be implemented in a wiki page for
> example and you can use JS.
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
> > On 21 April 2017 at 15:28, Vincent Massol  wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Miroslav,
> >>
> >>> On 21 Apr 2017, at 15:05, Miroslav Galajda  >
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hi, let me enter into this conversion.
> >>> Some time ago I've asked for help how to solve problem with diacritics
> >> (or
> >>> accents) in page names when creating new pages so that the have
> >>> url-friendly names. You can search for "strip accents from page name
> used
> >>> in url" in xwiki users mailing list. I've got no hint or solution from
> >>> xwiki community till today.
> >>>
> >>> I've come with solution that ensures for simple users, creating
> >>> url-friendly names without requiring them to think about the concept of
> >> the
> >>> page name or page title. They simple enter the desired human readably
> >> page
> >>> name, and in the code behind of the page creation, I have made some
> >>> modifications in createinline.vm to hook into page creation process.
> The
> >>> modifications are mainly javascript based, where I've attache to submit
> >>> event of the "form#create", where I replace the entered "title" with
> the
> >>> one for url-friendly. And for url-friendly name I've used this
> javascript
> >>> based solution on https://pid.github.io/speakingurl/.
> >>> I've integrated this principle also into page creation process of FAQ
> and
> >>> Blog applications, which we are using in our xwiki installation.
> >>>
> >>> It would be nice if you could integrate this principle into xwiki so
> that
> >>> everyone can have nice url-friendly urls without worring about it. It
> is
> >>> also suitable for english speaking users. You don't have to worry about
> >>> entering spaces or other non-url allowed characters, which make url
> look
> >>> ugly.
> >>
> >> That looks very nice!
> >>
> >> One way forward I could think about:
> >> * We provide some Create script service to return a URL-friendly string.
> >> We introduce a component role for this. We refactor createinline.vm to
> use
> >> it and to display the URL.
> >> * You could then contribute your code as an extension that we make
> >> available on extensions.xwiki.org for users to install
> >> * We decide later on if we want to bundle it by default
> >>
> >> If we don’t agree about displaying the URL by default all the time then
> an
> >> option is to introduce a UIX in createinline.vm for that. And this
> could be
> >> implemented in your extension too for example or by default in XWiki
> >> (possibly with an Admin setting).
> >>
> >> WDYT?
> >>
> >> Thanks
> >> -Vincent
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Thank you
> >>>
> >>> Best regards
> >>> Miroslav Galajda
> >>>
> >>> On 21 April 2017 at 14:02, Vincent Massol  wrote:
> >>>
> 
> > On 21 Apr 2017, at 13:52, Marius Dumitru Florea <
>  mariusdumitru.flo...@xwiki.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 2:16 PM, Vincent Massol 
>  wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Caty,
> >>
> >>> On 21 Apr 2017, at 12:44, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <
> >> vali...@gmail.com
> >
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Let's see what variants we have:
> >>>
> >>> 1. Instead of displaying "Title", display the "Name" instead.
> >>> This won't solve anything. There is no difference between Page Name
> >> and
> >>> Page Title for the normal users. Seeing "Name" instead of "Title",
> >> will
> >> not
> >>> stop the users to enter spaces if they want, so the URL will still
> >> have
> >>> those spaces. We don't force the Page Names to trim spaces.
> >>>
> >>> One quick solution here is indeed to use "URL" label instead of
> >> "Name".
> >> For
> >>> the reasons Vincent mentioned this might not end up in the product
> >> for
> >> now,
> >>
> >> What did I mention? :) What’s preventing us from having it in the
>  product
> >> rather soon than later (except workload ofc)?
> >>
> >>> so you will need to do some custom 

Re: [xwiki-users] display page title and name(url) while creating a page

[Vincent Massol]

> On 21 Apr 2017, at 15:36, Miroslav Galajda  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> the solution I've described is javascript based and runs on client-side.
> From what I know, the component-based solution, which you propose, would
> require to have url-friendly conversion component usable in java and not as
> javascript code. Am I right?

Yes you’re right but:

1) There’s also a Java API, see https://github.com/slugify/slugify
2) If we also offer a UIX then it can be implemented in a wiki page for example 
and you can use JS.

Thanks
-Vincent

> On 21 April 2017 at 15:28, Vincent Massol  wrote:
> 
>> Hi Miroslav,
>> 
>>> On 21 Apr 2017, at 15:05, Miroslav Galajda 
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi, let me enter into this conversion.
>>> Some time ago I've asked for help how to solve problem with diacritics
>> (or
>>> accents) in page names when creating new pages so that the have
>>> url-friendly names. You can search for "strip accents from page name used
>>> in url" in xwiki users mailing list. I've got no hint or solution from
>>> xwiki community till today.
>>> 
>>> I've come with solution that ensures for simple users, creating
>>> url-friendly names without requiring them to think about the concept of
>> the
>>> page name or page title. They simple enter the desired human readably
>> page
>>> name, and in the code behind of the page creation, I have made some
>>> modifications in createinline.vm to hook into page creation process. The
>>> modifications are mainly javascript based, where I've attache to submit
>>> event of the "form#create", where I replace the entered "title" with the
>>> one for url-friendly. And for url-friendly name I've used this javascript
>>> based solution on https://pid.github.io/speakingurl/.
>>> I've integrated this principle also into page creation process of FAQ and
>>> Blog applications, which we are using in our xwiki installation.
>>> 
>>> It would be nice if you could integrate this principle into xwiki so that
>>> everyone can have nice url-friendly urls without worring about it. It is
>>> also suitable for english speaking users. You don't have to worry about
>>> entering spaces or other non-url allowed characters, which make url look
>>> ugly.
>> 
>> That looks very nice!
>> 
>> One way forward I could think about:
>> * We provide some Create script service to return a URL-friendly string.
>> We introduce a component role for this. We refactor createinline.vm to use
>> it and to display the URL.
>> * You could then contribute your code as an extension that we make
>> available on extensions.xwiki.org for users to install
>> * We decide later on if we want to bundle it by default
>> 
>> If we don’t agree about displaying the URL by default all the time then an
>> option is to introduce a UIX in createinline.vm for that. And this could be
>> implemented in your extension too for example or by default in XWiki
>> (possibly with an Admin setting).
>> 
>> WDYT?
>> 
>> Thanks
>> -Vincent
>> 
>>> 
>>> Thank you
>>> 
>>> Best regards
>>> Miroslav Galajda
>>> 
>>> On 21 April 2017 at 14:02, Vincent Massol  wrote:
>>> 
 
> On 21 Apr 2017, at 13:52, Marius Dumitru Florea <
 mariusdumitru.flo...@xwiki.com> wrote:
> 
> On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 2:16 PM, Vincent Massol 
 wrote:
> 
>> Hi Caty,
>> 
>>> On 21 Apr 2017, at 12:44, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <
>> vali...@gmail.com
> 
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Let's see what variants we have:
>>> 
>>> 1. Instead of displaying "Title", display the "Name" instead.
>>> This won't solve anything. There is no difference between Page Name
>> and
>>> Page Title for the normal users. Seeing "Name" instead of "Title",
>> will
>> not
>>> stop the users to enter spaces if they want, so the URL will still
>> have
>>> those spaces. We don't force the Page Names to trim spaces.
>>> 
>>> One quick solution here is indeed to use "URL" label instead of
>> "Name".
>> For
>>> the reasons Vincent mentioned this might not end up in the product
>> for
>> now,
>> 
>> What did I mention? :) What’s preventing us from having it in the
 product
>> rather soon than later (except workload ofc)?
>> 
>>> so you will need to do some custom development (changing some
>> translations)
>>> to have this change. If you want to be "hackish" you can even change
 the
>>> translation for "Title" to "URL" instead and hope that your users
>> will
>>> enter shorter URLs (since we generate the name from the title).
>>> 
>>> Displaying just Name / URL, means users will still have to go and
 change
>>> the title manually.
>> 
>> This could be better (with URL name) since when you create a page
>> you’re
>> offered the ability to change the title after you click Create.
>> 
>>> The only way to cut a step in the flow is to

Re: [xwiki-users] display page title and name(url) while creating a page

[Miroslav Galajda]

Hi,
the solution I've described is javascript based and runs on client-side.
>From what I know, the component-based solution, which you propose, would
require to have url-friendly conversion component usable in java and not as
javascript code. Am I right?

On 21 April 2017 at 15:28, Vincent Massol  wrote:

> Hi Miroslav,
>
> > On 21 Apr 2017, at 15:05, Miroslav Galajda 
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, let me enter into this conversion.
> > Some time ago I've asked for help how to solve problem with diacritics
> (or
> > accents) in page names when creating new pages so that the have
> > url-friendly names. You can search for "strip accents from page name used
> > in url" in xwiki users mailing list. I've got no hint or solution from
> > xwiki community till today.
> >
> > I've come with solution that ensures for simple users, creating
> > url-friendly names without requiring them to think about the concept of
> the
> > page name or page title. They simple enter the desired human readably
> page
> > name, and in the code behind of the page creation, I have made some
> > modifications in createinline.vm to hook into page creation process. The
> > modifications are mainly javascript based, where I've attache to submit
> > event of the "form#create", where I replace the entered "title" with the
> > one for url-friendly. And for url-friendly name I've used this javascript
> > based solution on https://pid.github.io/speakingurl/.
> > I've integrated this principle also into page creation process of FAQ and
> > Blog applications, which we are using in our xwiki installation.
> >
> > It would be nice if you could integrate this principle into xwiki so that
> > everyone can have nice url-friendly urls without worring about it. It is
> > also suitable for english speaking users. You don't have to worry about
> > entering spaces or other non-url allowed characters, which make url look
> > ugly.
>
> That looks very nice!
>
> One way forward I could think about:
> * We provide some Create script service to return a URL-friendly string.
> We introduce a component role for this. We refactor createinline.vm to use
> it and to display the URL.
> * You could then contribute your code as an extension that we make
> available on extensions.xwiki.org for users to install
> * We decide later on if we want to bundle it by default
>
> If we don’t agree about displaying the URL by default all the time then an
> option is to introduce a UIX in createinline.vm for that. And this could be
> implemented in your extension too for example or by default in XWiki
> (possibly with an Admin setting).
>
> WDYT?
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
> >
> > Thank you
> >
> > Best regards
> > Miroslav Galajda
> >
> > On 21 April 2017 at 14:02, Vincent Massol  wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>> On 21 Apr 2017, at 13:52, Marius Dumitru Florea <
> >> mariusdumitru.flo...@xwiki.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 2:16 PM, Vincent Massol 
> >> wrote:
> >>>
>  Hi Caty,
> 
> > On 21 Apr 2017, at 12:44, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <
> vali...@gmail.com
> >>>
>  wrote:
> >
> > Let's see what variants we have:
> >
> > 1. Instead of displaying "Title", display the "Name" instead.
> > This won't solve anything. There is no difference between Page Name
> and
> > Page Title for the normal users. Seeing "Name" instead of "Title",
> will
>  not
> > stop the users to enter spaces if they want, so the URL will still
> have
> > those spaces. We don't force the Page Names to trim spaces.
> >
> > One quick solution here is indeed to use "URL" label instead of
> "Name".
>  For
> > the reasons Vincent mentioned this might not end up in the product
> for
>  now,
> 
>  What did I mention? :) What’s preventing us from having it in the
> >> product
>  rather soon than later (except workload ofc)?
> 
> > so you will need to do some custom development (changing some
>  translations)
> > to have this change. If you want to be "hackish" you can even change
> >> the
> > translation for "Title" to "URL" instead and hope that your users
> will
> > enter shorter URLs (since we generate the name from the title).
> >
> > Displaying just Name / URL, means users will still have to go and
> >> change
> > the title manually.
> 
>  This could be better (with URL name) since when you create a page
> you’re
>  offered the ability to change the title after you click Create.
> 
> > The only way to cut a step in the flow is to
> > autogenerate the page names (which we currently do). But for your use
>  case
> > you shoyld write a shorting/trimming algorithm, but this is custom,
> >> since
> > you mentioned you want just the initials and no spaces, etc.
> >
> > 2. Displaying both "Title" and "Name". This will create confusion and
>  need
> > for explanations.
> 

Re: [xwiki-users] display page title and name(url) while creating a page

[Vincent Massol]

Hi Miroslav,

> On 21 Apr 2017, at 15:05, Miroslav Galajda  wrote:
> 
> Hi, let me enter into this conversion.
> Some time ago I've asked for help how to solve problem with diacritics (or
> accents) in page names when creating new pages so that the have
> url-friendly names. You can search for "strip accents from page name used
> in url" in xwiki users mailing list. I've got no hint or solution from
> xwiki community till today.
> 
> I've come with solution that ensures for simple users, creating
> url-friendly names without requiring them to think about the concept of the
> page name or page title. They simple enter the desired human readably page
> name, and in the code behind of the page creation, I have made some
> modifications in createinline.vm to hook into page creation process. The
> modifications are mainly javascript based, where I've attache to submit
> event of the "form#create", where I replace the entered "title" with the
> one for url-friendly. And for url-friendly name I've used this javascript
> based solution on https://pid.github.io/speakingurl/.
> I've integrated this principle also into page creation process of FAQ and
> Blog applications, which we are using in our xwiki installation.
> 
> It would be nice if you could integrate this principle into xwiki so that
> everyone can have nice url-friendly urls without worring about it. It is
> also suitable for english speaking users. You don't have to worry about
> entering spaces or other non-url allowed characters, which make url look
> ugly.

That looks very nice!

One way forward I could think about:
* We provide some Create script service to return a URL-friendly string. We 
introduce a component role for this. We refactor createinline.vm to use it and 
to display the URL.
* You could then contribute your code as an extension that we make available on 
extensions.xwiki.org for users to install
* We decide later on if we want to bundle it by default

If we don’t agree about displaying the URL by default all the time then an 
option is to introduce a UIX in createinline.vm for that. And this could be 
implemented in your extension too for example or by default in XWiki (possibly 
with an Admin setting).

WDYT?

Thanks
-Vincent

> 
> Thank you
> 
> Best regards
> Miroslav Galajda
> 
> On 21 April 2017 at 14:02, Vincent Massol  wrote:
> 
>> 
>>> On 21 Apr 2017, at 13:52, Marius Dumitru Florea <
>> mariusdumitru.flo...@xwiki.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 2:16 PM, Vincent Massol 
>> wrote:
>>> 
 Hi Caty,
 
> On 21 Apr 2017, at 12:44, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) >> 
 wrote:
> 
> Let's see what variants we have:
> 
> 1. Instead of displaying "Title", display the "Name" instead.
> This won't solve anything. There is no difference between Page Name and
> Page Title for the normal users. Seeing "Name" instead of "Title", will
 not
> stop the users to enter spaces if they want, so the URL will still have
> those spaces. We don't force the Page Names to trim spaces.
> 
> One quick solution here is indeed to use "URL" label instead of "Name".
 For
> the reasons Vincent mentioned this might not end up in the product for
 now,
 
 What did I mention? :) What’s preventing us from having it in the
>> product
 rather soon than later (except workload ofc)?
 
> so you will need to do some custom development (changing some
 translations)
> to have this change. If you want to be "hackish" you can even change
>> the
> translation for "Title" to "URL" instead and hope that your users will
> enter shorter URLs (since we generate the name from the title).
> 
> Displaying just Name / URL, means users will still have to go and
>> change
> the title manually.
 
 This could be better (with URL name) since when you create a page you’re
 offered the ability to change the title after you click Create.
 
> The only way to cut a step in the flow is to
> autogenerate the page names (which we currently do). But for your use
 case
> you shoyld write a shorting/trimming algorithm, but this is custom,
>> since
> you mentioned you want just the initials and no spaces, etc.
> 
> 2. Displaying both "Title" and "Name". This will create confusion and
 need
> for explanations.
 
 This is not exactly what is suggested either by Vishal nor by me :) What
 we suggested is to let the user enter the URL name and title.
 
 Actually and to be more precise what I was suggesting was to continue to
 let the user enter the title but to show the generated URL as it’s done
>> in
 AWM. And, importantly to allow the user to change the last part of the
>> URL
 (it would change the page name).
 
> That's why we display these options just for advanced and
> long-time users of XWiki, since 

Re: [xwiki-users] display page title and name(url) while creating a page

[Miroslav Galajda]

Hi, let me enter into this conversion.
Some time ago I've asked for help how to solve problem with diacritics (or
accents) in page names when creating new pages so that the have
url-friendly names. You can search for "strip accents from page name used
in url" in xwiki users mailing list. I've got no hint or solution from
xwiki community till today.

I've come with solution that ensures for simple users, creating
url-friendly names without requiring them to think about the concept of the
page name or page title. They simple enter the desired human readably page
name, and in the code behind of the page creation, I have made some
modifications in createinline.vm to hook into page creation process. The
modifications are mainly javascript based, where I've attache to submit
event of the "form#create", where I replace the entered "title" with the
one for url-friendly. And for url-friendly name I've used this javascript
based solution on https://pid.github.io/speakingurl/.
I've integrated this principle also into page creation process of FAQ and
Blog applications, which we are using in our xwiki installation.

It would be nice if you could integrate this principle into xwiki so that
everyone can have nice url-friendly urls without worring about it. It is
also suitable for english speaking users. You don't have to worry about
entering spaces or other non-url allowed characters, which make url look
ugly.

Thank you

Best regards
Miroslav Galajda

On 21 April 2017 at 14:02, Vincent Massol  wrote:

>
> > On 21 Apr 2017, at 13:52, Marius Dumitru Florea <
> mariusdumitru.flo...@xwiki.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 2:16 PM, Vincent Massol 
> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Caty,
> >>
> >>> On 21 Apr 2017, at 12:44, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)  >
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Let's see what variants we have:
> >>>
> >>> 1. Instead of displaying "Title", display the "Name" instead.
> >>> This won't solve anything. There is no difference between Page Name and
> >>> Page Title for the normal users. Seeing "Name" instead of "Title", will
> >> not
> >>> stop the users to enter spaces if they want, so the URL will still have
> >>> those spaces. We don't force the Page Names to trim spaces.
> >>>
> >>> One quick solution here is indeed to use "URL" label instead of "Name".
> >> For
> >>> the reasons Vincent mentioned this might not end up in the product for
> >> now,
> >>
> >> What did I mention? :) What’s preventing us from having it in the
> product
> >> rather soon than later (except workload ofc)?
> >>
> >>> so you will need to do some custom development (changing some
> >> translations)
> >>> to have this change. If you want to be "hackish" you can even change
> the
> >>> translation for "Title" to "URL" instead and hope that your users will
> >>> enter shorter URLs (since we generate the name from the title).
> >>>
> >>> Displaying just Name / URL, means users will still have to go and
> change
> >>> the title manually.
> >>
> >> This could be better (with URL name) since when you create a page you’re
> >> offered the ability to change the title after you click Create.
> >>
> >>> The only way to cut a step in the flow is to
> >>> autogenerate the page names (which we currently do). But for your use
> >> case
> >>> you shoyld write a shorting/trimming algorithm, but this is custom,
> since
> >>> you mentioned you want just the initials and no spaces, etc.
> >>>
> >>> 2. Displaying both "Title" and "Name". This will create confusion and
> >> need
> >>> for explanations.
> >>
> >> This is not exactly what is suggested either by Vishal nor by me :) What
> >> we suggested is to let the user enter the URL name and title.
> >>
> >> Actually and to be more precise what I was suggesting was to continue to
> >> let the user enter the title but to show the generated URL as it’s done
> in
> >> AWM. And, importantly to allow the user to change the last part of the
> URL
> >> (it would change the page name).
> >>
> >>> That's why we display these options just for advanced and
> >>> long-time users of XWiki, since they are used to the concepts.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >> Yes but URLs don't need an advanced user to understand the concept and I
> >> agree with Vishal that we’re now causing a very large number of pages to
> >> have %25 in their URLs by default which is quite bad… Of course someone
> can
> >> spend their time monitoring what users are doing and renaming pages
> >> thereafter or educate their users to do that but we’re not helping and
> >> we’re making it difficult.
> >>
> >
> > If your web site is not in English then you're forced to use special
> > characters like diacritics which makes it hard to avoid URL encoded
> > characters (the browser location bar displays the URL nicely but if you
> > copy the URL the result is not nice).
>
> Agreed. So I’d say it’s even more important to allow the user to be able
> to easily view and change the resulting URL when they’re not in 

Re: [xwiki-users] display page title and name(url) while creating a page

[Vincent Massol]

> On 21 Apr 2017, at 13:52, Marius Dumitru Florea 
>  wrote:
> 
> On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 2:16 PM, Vincent Massol  wrote:
> 
>> Hi Caty,
>> 
>>> On 21 Apr 2017, at 12:44, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) 
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Let's see what variants we have:
>>> 
>>> 1. Instead of displaying "Title", display the "Name" instead.
>>> This won't solve anything. There is no difference between Page Name and
>>> Page Title for the normal users. Seeing "Name" instead of "Title", will
>> not
>>> stop the users to enter spaces if they want, so the URL will still have
>>> those spaces. We don't force the Page Names to trim spaces.
>>> 
>>> One quick solution here is indeed to use "URL" label instead of "Name".
>> For
>>> the reasons Vincent mentioned this might not end up in the product for
>> now,
>> 
>> What did I mention? :) What’s preventing us from having it in the product
>> rather soon than later (except workload ofc)?
>> 
>>> so you will need to do some custom development (changing some
>> translations)
>>> to have this change. If you want to be "hackish" you can even change the
>>> translation for "Title" to "URL" instead and hope that your users will
>>> enter shorter URLs (since we generate the name from the title).
>>> 
>>> Displaying just Name / URL, means users will still have to go and change
>>> the title manually.
>> 
>> This could be better (with URL name) since when you create a page you’re
>> offered the ability to change the title after you click Create.
>> 
>>> The only way to cut a step in the flow is to
>>> autogenerate the page names (which we currently do). But for your use
>> case
>>> you shoyld write a shorting/trimming algorithm, but this is custom, since
>>> you mentioned you want just the initials and no spaces, etc.
>>> 
>>> 2. Displaying both "Title" and "Name". This will create confusion and
>> need
>>> for explanations.
>> 
>> This is not exactly what is suggested either by Vishal nor by me :) What
>> we suggested is to let the user enter the URL name and title.
>> 
>> Actually and to be more precise what I was suggesting was to continue to
>> let the user enter the title but to show the generated URL as it’s done in
>> AWM. And, importantly to allow the user to change the last part of the URL
>> (it would change the page name).
>> 
>>> That's why we display these options just for advanced and
>>> long-time users of XWiki, since they are used to the concepts.
>> 
>> 
> 
>> Yes but URLs don't need an advanced user to understand the concept and I
>> agree with Vishal that we’re now causing a very large number of pages to
>> have %25 in their URLs by default which is quite bad… Of course someone can
>> spend their time monitoring what users are doing and renaming pages
>> thereafter or educate their users to do that but we’re not helping and
>> we’re making it difficult.
>> 
> 
> If your web site is not in English then you're forced to use special
> characters like diacritics which makes it hard to avoid URL encoded
> characters (the browser location bar displays the URL nicely but if you
> copy the URL the result is not nice).

Agreed. So I’d say it’s even more important to allow the user to be able to 
easily view and change the resulting URL when they’re not in English.

Thanks
-Vincent

> 
> 
>> 
>>> -
>>> 
>>> IMO what you are describing is advanced user behavior. Normal users don't
>>> generally care about their URLs and SEO.
>> 
>> I don’t fully agree with you. I have the feeling (can’t prove it) that a
>> good number of our users care about the generated URLs.
>> 
> 
>> Also I think that simple users may care about URL without being advanced
>> users. Making them advanced users will expose them to a lot more complexity
>> than they need to know.
>> 
>>> But the beauty of XWiki is that
>>> you can customize it locally to perfectly match your needs.
>> 
>> That’s not exactly true (and it’s far from being easy, just check
>> createinline.vm): It means overriding large portions of vm code and having
>> to do manual merges whenever you upgrade. A major PITA.
>> 
>>> Vincent mentioned something about AWM. I don't see much difference from
>> the
>>> Create Page. We generate the names from title here too. We display them
>> in
>>> the breadcrumb, but in a more simple way. Displaying the
>> "localhost"/server
>>> part is not simple user behavior. AWM is more complex.
>>> 
>>> -
>>> 
>>> So I would not change anything on the product side, since I believe these
>>> should be solved as custom changes for your instance.
>>> We want to encourage users to use page titles (with spaces in them since
>>> they are more readable and supported), while we are preserving the page
>>> name behavior for advances users (but we don't enforce it).
>> 
>> I don’t agree with this sentence: We definitely don’t want to encourage
>> users to use titles in URLs.
>> 
>>> If users made
>>> mistakes they can always change the title or rename 

Re: [xwiki-users] display page title and name(url) while creating a page

[Vincent Massol]

Hi Mahomed,

> On 21 Apr 2017, at 13:50, Mahomed Hussein <maho...@custodiandc.com> wrote:
> 
> This is quite an interesting discussion and I'd like to add a few points if 
> you don't mind.
> 
> When we first started using XWiki, our users did comment about the really 
> long URLs that were being generated from the Title. But as our XWiki is 
> internal only for documentation, I kind of brushed it off with "That's just 
> the way it works".
> 
> But I agree that in some cases it would be good to be able to edit the 
> resulting URL. Both for us, and obviously for other users. :-)
> 
> In regards of how to achieve this, I'd like to propose a half-way 
> house/compromise.
> 
> Firstly, create an Admin option in the Admin control panel to the effect of:
> 
> "Allow users to edit the Page URL when creating new pages"
> - Always
> - Optional
> - Never (Default)

Thanks for participating to the discussion!  :) We need the max # of users to 
provide an opinion.

The fact that the default would be “Never” in your proposal above wouldn’t help 
that much since by default users wouldn’t be able to control the URLs and thus 
you’d need to educate everyone that they need to turn this on. It’s quite 
similar to telling your users to be Advanced users.

Now, what could be done is having some Admin settings for the defaults when a 
user account is created in your wiki. It’s just a bit more work and the Admin 
would still to know about this and thus it’s extra knowledge/complexity to use 
XWiki.

Now we would need to do something like this if we cannot agree that in all 
cases it’s ok to have the URL displayed in the Create page. If we agree that 
it’s fine then this config option is not required.

Thanks
-Vincent

> Then on the create page, you would have the following "minor" changes (I say 
> minor because changes are always minor to the person who is not doing the 
> programming ;-)  )
> 
> If the Admin option is "Never" then the create page remains as it is.
> 
> If the Admin option is "Optional" then there should be a link/button under 
> Title that is called "Edit Page URL". This would be an extra button on the 
> current create page form. When the user clicks the button/link, they then get 
> another text box in which to specify the URL parameter.
> 
> If the Admin option is "Always" then the create page will show "Page Title" 
> (as it is currently) and will also show the "Page URL" text box. Ideally, 
> this Page URL text box should be auto-populated with the proposed 
> auto-generated name from the title (unless the Page URL is edited before the 
> Page Title). Obviously you'll have to do a few other checks to make sure it's 
> a valid entry for a URL in both cases (but you may have this already from the 
> old version where both options always showed).
> 
> 
> I also recommend that the current description text for Title is changed from 
> the very short "Title of the new page"
> to
> "This is Title Heading shown at the top of the document when viewed. The Page 
> URL is auto-generated from this title"
> 
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mahomed Hussein
> Custodian Data Centre
> Email: maho...@custodiandc.com
> http://www.CustodianDC.com
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: users [mailto:users-boun...@xwiki.org] On Behalf Of Vincent Massol
> Sent: 21 April 2017 12:16
> To: XWiki Users <users@xwiki.org>
> Subject: Re: [xwiki-users] display page title and name(url) while creating a 
> page
> 
> Hi Caty,
> 
>> On 21 Apr 2017, at 12:44, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <vali...@gmail.com> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Let's see what variants we have:
>> 
>> 1. Instead of displaying "Title", display the "Name" instead.
>> This won't solve anything. There is no difference between Page Name
>> and Page Title for the normal users. Seeing "Name" instead of "Title",
>> will not stop the users to enter spaces if they want, so the URL will
>> still have those spaces. We don't force the Page Names to trim spaces.
>> 
>> One quick solution here is indeed to use "URL" label instead of
>> "Name". For the reasons Vincent mentioned this might not end up in the
>> product for now,
> 
> What did I mention? :) What’s preventing us from having it in the product 
> rather soon than later (except workload ofc)?
> 
>> so you will need to do some custom development (changing some
>> translations) to have this change. If you want to be "hackish" you can
>> even change the translation for "Title" to "URL" instead and hope th

Re: [xwiki-users] display page title and name(url) while creating a page

[Marius Dumitru Florea]

On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 2:16 PM, Vincent Massol  wrote:

> Hi Caty,
>
> > On 21 Apr 2017, at 12:44, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) 
> wrote:
> >
> > Let's see what variants we have:
> >
> > 1. Instead of displaying "Title", display the "Name" instead.
> > This won't solve anything. There is no difference between Page Name and
> > Page Title for the normal users. Seeing "Name" instead of "Title", will
> not
> > stop the users to enter spaces if they want, so the URL will still have
> > those spaces. We don't force the Page Names to trim spaces.
> >
> > One quick solution here is indeed to use "URL" label instead of "Name".
> For
> > the reasons Vincent mentioned this might not end up in the product for
> now,
>
> What did I mention? :) What’s preventing us from having it in the product
> rather soon than later (except workload ofc)?
>
> > so you will need to do some custom development (changing some
> translations)
> > to have this change. If you want to be "hackish" you can even change the
> > translation for "Title" to "URL" instead and hope that your users will
> > enter shorter URLs (since we generate the name from the title).
> >
> > Displaying just Name / URL, means users will still have to go and change
> > the title manually.
>
> This could be better (with URL name) since when you create a page you’re
> offered the ability to change the title after you click Create.
>
> > The only way to cut a step in the flow is to
> > autogenerate the page names (which we currently do). But for your use
> case
> > you shoyld write a shorting/trimming algorithm, but this is custom, since
> > you mentioned you want just the initials and no spaces, etc.
> >
> > 2. Displaying both "Title" and "Name". This will create confusion and
> need
> > for explanations.
>
> This is not exactly what is suggested either by Vishal nor by me :) What
> we suggested is to let the user enter the URL name and title.
>
> Actually and to be more precise what I was suggesting was to continue to
> let the user enter the title but to show the generated URL as it’s done in
> AWM. And, importantly to allow the user to change the last part of the URL
> (it would change the page name).
>
> > That's why we display these options just for advanced and
> > long-time users of XWiki, since they are used to the concepts.
>
>

> Yes but URLs don't need an advanced user to understand the concept and I
> agree with Vishal that we’re now causing a very large number of pages to
> have %25 in their URLs by default which is quite bad… Of course someone can
> spend their time monitoring what users are doing and renaming pages
> thereafter or educate their users to do that but we’re not helping and
> we’re making it difficult.
>

If your web site is not in English then you're forced to use special
characters like diacritics which makes it hard to avoid URL encoded
characters (the browser location bar displays the URL nicely but if you
copy the URL the result is not nice).


>
> > -
> >
> > IMO what you are describing is advanced user behavior. Normal users don't
> > generally care about their URLs and SEO.
>
> I don’t fully agree with you. I have the feeling (can’t prove it) that a
> good number of our users care about the generated URLs.
>

> Also I think that simple users may care about URL without being advanced
> users. Making them advanced users will expose them to a lot more complexity
> than they need to know.
>
> > But the beauty of XWiki is that
> > you can customize it locally to perfectly match your needs.
>
> That’s not exactly true (and it’s far from being easy, just check
> createinline.vm): It means overriding large portions of vm code and having
> to do manual merges whenever you upgrade. A major PITA.
>
> > Vincent mentioned something about AWM. I don't see much difference from
> the
> > Create Page. We generate the names from title here too. We display them
> in
> > the breadcrumb, but in a more simple way. Displaying the
> "localhost"/server
> > part is not simple user behavior. AWM is more complex.
> >
> > -
> >
> > So I would not change anything on the product side, since I believe these
> > should be solved as custom changes for your instance.
> > We want to encourage users to use page titles (with spaces in them since
> > they are more readable and supported), while we are preserving the page
> > name behavior for advances users (but we don't enforce it).
>
> I don’t agree with this sentence: We definitely don’t want to encourage
> users to use titles in URLs.
>
> > If users made
> > mistakes they can always change the title or rename the page.
> > On the product side the only change I would like us to do is using the
> URL
> > naming, but this was debated in the past and dropped for Vincent's
> reasons.
>
> What reasons, I don’t remember a discussion about using URL name instead
> of page name?
>
> So our main disagreement is that I consider that favouring encoded
> characters in URLs is not a 

Re: [xwiki-users] display page title and name(url) while creating a page

[Mahomed Hussein]

This is quite an interesting discussion and I'd like to add a few points if you 
don't mind.

When we first started using XWiki, our users did comment about the really long 
URLs that were being generated from the Title. But as our XWiki is internal 
only for documentation, I kind of brushed it off with "That's just the way it 
works".

But I agree that in some cases it would be good to be able to edit the 
resulting URL. Both for us, and obviously for other users. :-)

In regards of how to achieve this, I'd like to propose a half-way 
house/compromise.

Firstly, create an Admin option in the Admin control panel to the effect of:

"Allow users to edit the Page URL when creating new pages"
- Always
- Optional
- Never (Default)

Then on the create page, you would have the following "minor" changes (I say 
minor because changes are always minor to the person who is not doing the 
programming ;-)  )

If the Admin option is "Never" then the create page remains as it is.

If the Admin option is "Optional" then there should be a link/button under 
Title that is called "Edit Page URL". This would be an extra button on the 
current create page form. When the user clicks the button/link, they then get 
another text box in which to specify the URL parameter.

If the Admin option is "Always" then the create page will show "Page Title" (as 
it is currently) and will also show the "Page URL" text box. Ideally, this Page 
URL text box should be auto-populated with the proposed auto-generated name 
from the title (unless the Page URL is edited before the Page Title). Obviously 
you'll have to do a few other checks to make sure it's a valid entry for a URL 
in both cases (but you may have this already from the old version where both 
options always showed).


I also recommend that the current description text for Title is changed from 
the very short "Title of the new page"
to
"This is Title Heading shown at the top of the document when viewed. The Page 
URL is auto-generated from this title"


Kind regards,




Mahomed Hussein
Custodian Data Centre
Email: maho...@custodiandc.com
http://www.CustodianDC.com

-Original Message-
From: users [mailto:users-boun...@xwiki.org] On Behalf Of Vincent Massol
Sent: 21 April 2017 12:16
To: XWiki Users <users@xwiki.org>
Subject: Re: [xwiki-users] display page title and name(url) while creating a 
page

Hi Caty,

> On 21 Apr 2017, at 12:44, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <vali...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Let's see what variants we have:
>
> 1. Instead of displaying "Title", display the "Name" instead.
> This won't solve anything. There is no difference between Page Name
> and Page Title for the normal users. Seeing "Name" instead of "Title",
> will not stop the users to enter spaces if they want, so the URL will
> still have those spaces. We don't force the Page Names to trim spaces.
>
> One quick solution here is indeed to use "URL" label instead of
> "Name". For the reasons Vincent mentioned this might not end up in the
> product for now,

What did I mention? :) What’s preventing us from having it in the product 
rather soon than later (except workload ofc)?

> so you will need to do some custom development (changing some
> translations) to have this change. If you want to be "hackish" you can
> even change the translation for "Title" to "URL" instead and hope that
> your users will enter shorter URLs (since we generate the name from the 
> title).
>
> Displaying just Name / URL, means users will still have to go and
> change the title manually.

This could be better (with URL name) since when you create a page you’re 
offered the ability to change the title after you click Create.

> The only way to cut a step in the flow is to autogenerate the page
> names (which we currently do). But for your use case you shoyld write
> a shorting/trimming algorithm, but this is custom, since you mentioned
> you want just the initials and no spaces, etc.
>
> 2. Displaying both "Title" and "Name". This will create confusion and
> need for explanations.

This is not exactly what is suggested either by Vishal nor by me :) What we 
suggested is to let the user enter the URL name and title.

Actually and to be more precise what I was suggesting was to continue to let 
the user enter the title but to show the generated URL as it’s done in AWM. 
And, importantly to allow the user to change the last part of the URL (it would 
change the page name).

> That's why we display these options just for advanced and long-time
> users of XWiki, since they are used to the concepts.

Yes but URLs don't need an advanced user to understand the concept and I agree 
with Vishal that we’re now cau

Re: [xwiki-users] display page title and name(url) while creating a page

[Vincent Massol]

Hi Caty,

> On 21 Apr 2017, at 12:44, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)  wrote:
> 
> Let's see what variants we have:
> 
> 1. Instead of displaying "Title", display the "Name" instead.
> This won't solve anything. There is no difference between Page Name and
> Page Title for the normal users. Seeing "Name" instead of "Title", will not
> stop the users to enter spaces if they want, so the URL will still have
> those spaces. We don't force the Page Names to trim spaces.
> 
> One quick solution here is indeed to use "URL" label instead of "Name". For
> the reasons Vincent mentioned this might not end up in the product for now,

What did I mention? :) What’s preventing us from having it in the product 
rather soon than later (except workload ofc)?

> so you will need to do some custom development (changing some translations)
> to have this change. If you want to be "hackish" you can even change the
> translation for "Title" to "URL" instead and hope that your users will
> enter shorter URLs (since we generate the name from the title).
> 
> Displaying just Name / URL, means users will still have to go and change
> the title manually.

This could be better (with URL name) since when you create a page you’re 
offered the ability to change the title after you click Create.

> The only way to cut a step in the flow is to
> autogenerate the page names (which we currently do). But for your use case
> you shoyld write a shorting/trimming algorithm, but this is custom, since
> you mentioned you want just the initials and no spaces, etc.
> 
> 2. Displaying both "Title" and "Name". This will create confusion and need
> for explanations.

This is not exactly what is suggested either by Vishal nor by me :) What we 
suggested is to let the user enter the URL name and title.

Actually and to be more precise what I was suggesting was to continue to let 
the user enter the title but to show the generated URL as it’s done in AWM. 
And, importantly to allow the user to change the last part of the URL (it would 
change the page name).

> That's why we display these options just for advanced and
> long-time users of XWiki, since they are used to the concepts.

Yes but URLs don't need an advanced user to understand the concept and I agree 
with Vishal that we’re now causing a very large number of pages to have %25 in 
their URLs by default which is quite bad… Of course someone can spend their 
time monitoring what users are doing and renaming pages thereafter or educate 
their users to do that but we’re not helping and we’re making it difficult.

> -
> 
> IMO what you are describing is advanced user behavior. Normal users don't
> generally care about their URLs and SEO.

I don’t fully agree with you. I have the feeling (can’t prove it) that a good 
number of our users care about the generated URLs.

Also I think that simple users may care about URL without being advanced users. 
Making them advanced users will expose them to a lot more complexity than they 
need to know.

> But the beauty of XWiki is that
> you can customize it locally to perfectly match your needs.

That’s not exactly true (and it’s far from being easy, just check 
createinline.vm): It means overriding large portions of vm code and having to 
do manual merges whenever you upgrade. A major PITA.

> Vincent mentioned something about AWM. I don't see much difference from the
> Create Page. We generate the names from title here too. We display them in
> the breadcrumb, but in a more simple way. Displaying the "localhost"/server
> part is not simple user behavior. AWM is more complex.
> 
> -
> 
> So I would not change anything on the product side, since I believe these
> should be solved as custom changes for your instance.
> We want to encourage users to use page titles (with spaces in them since
> they are more readable and supported), while we are preserving the page
> name behavior for advances users (but we don't enforce it).

I don’t agree with this sentence: We definitely don’t want to encourage users 
to use titles in URLs.

> If users made
> mistakes they can always change the title or rename the page.
> On the product side the only change I would like us to do is using the URL
> naming, but this was debated in the past and dropped for Vincent's reasons.

What reasons, I don’t remember a discussion about using URL name instead of 
page name?

So our main disagreement is that I consider that favouring encoded characters 
in URLs is not a good thing while you think it’s not a large enough problem to 
do something about it.

Would it make our UI too complex to use for simple users if we were showing a 
URL and the ability to change the last part of it? IMO what’s complex is when 
we have Page name and Page Title. But I don’t feel there’d be confusion between 
URL and Page title.

What do others think?

Thanks
-Vincent

> 
> Thanks,
> Caty
> 
> 
> On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 11:57 PM, Vincent Massol  wrote:
> 
>> 
>>> On 20 Apr 

Re: [xwiki-users] display page title and name(url) while creating a page

[Vincent Massol]

> On 20 Apr 2017, at 22:51, Vincent Massol  wrote:
> 
> Hi Vishal,
> 
> Ok, I misunderstood you in your first email. I understood the opposite. I 
> thought you were complaining that have 2 notions (page name + page title) was 
> confusing but it’s actually the opposite! What you find confusing is the fact 
> that it’s not easy for your users to set both the page name and page titles!
> 
> It’s funny (or not :)) since this is exactly what we had in past versions of 
> XWiki and we had several complaints that it was confusing to have the 2 
> notions and this is why he hid the page name only for advanced users.

Actually, if I remember well, what we were doing was to ask for the page name 
and we were setting the title to the same as the page name by default and then 
the user could edit the title before saving the page.

We’ve now done the opposite (user deciding on the title and page name being 
derived from it) but leading to the issue you’re raising about URL SEO…

Thanks
-Vincent

> See below.
> 
>> On 20 Apr 2017, at 14:20, Vishal  wrote:
>> 
>> Thanks Vincent for your thorough reply..
>> You guessed it right. We intend to have clean and short urls for SEO
>> reasons. 
>> Current scheme creates two problems:
>> 
>> 1) The Page name is fetched automatically from the Title. Often the titles
>> have spaces which translate as *percent characters *in url which makes it
>> somewhat unclean :)
> 
> Indeed you’re right. By hiding the page name we’re now incitating to have 
> longer URLs and encoded characters showing up in URLs which is not nice I 
> agree.
> 
> Maybe one solution is to do something similar to what we do in AWM, i.e. 
> generate automatically the URL from the title entered by the user and show 
> the resulting URL to the user and give the user the opportunity to change the 
> URL.
> 
> See 
> http://extensions.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Extension/App%20Within%20Minutes%20Application/AppWithinMinutes-Step1.png
> 
>> 2) Secondly, to have the shorter url, we use only the short forms of
>> complete title. 
>> Ex. For title 'Pune University' we use name PU. 
> 
> Hey, you’re from Pune? :) I’ve been there about 15 times! That was in a 
> previous job where my company and KPIT Cummins were partners.
> 
>> Otherwise in this hierarchy of pages, the url would be much longer. 
>> Ex. We have page 'Electronics and Telecommunications' branch under page
>> 'Pune University'. We should not have such a long url. Instead here we need
>> PU/ENTC or Pune-University/ENTC
>> 
>> To avoid all this, what we currently do:
>> 1) On create page dialog, use PU as title.. This will create url as PU.
>> If full name is used here as title, we need to use - instead of spaces to
>> avoid percent characters in url.
>> 2) While in edit mode, change the title back to Pune University. Remove any
>> - characters to make title clean.
>> This is where confusion creeps in.
>> 
>> If these two terms create confusion, why I need to show them both:
>> I guess the *confusion is due to term Name*. It doesn't reflect actual usage
>> of the term. URL or weblink or link or web address would be more apt terms
>> to use to instead of Name. 
> 
> Regarding Page name vs Page URL.
> 
> A bit of history: The reason we used page name and not page URL originally is 
> because what the user is creating is a document in the database and initially 
> it was called Document Name. Since that was a bit confusing for users, we had 
> decided to call it Page Name. It just happened that the URL used was directly 
> derived from the document/page name.
> 
> In practice the 3 concepts could have different values:
> * a value for the document’s name in the DB
> * another value for the document’s title
> * yet another value used in the URL.
> 
> We’ve had discussions so that we could let the user provide shorter URLs for 
> pages in the future.
> 
> Now for the time being and since we don’t have this ATM, I think I agree with 
> you that we could decide to display to the user the URL that will be 
> generated (the encoded URL) and allow the user to change it. Internally the 
> user would change the document name.
> 
>> My users can differentiate between Title and URL. But the whole procedure we
>> follow is certainly not understandable by all. And we definitely need to
>> follow this whole long procedure, just to have short and clean urls.
> 
> Yes, if you’re asking your users to care about the URLs that get generated, 
> right now they need to be advanced users to be able to edit the page name in 
> the Create Page UI (since changing the title afterwards is too cumbersome).
> 
>> So, by showing both fields at the first place itself, I would like to
>> shorten the procedure and url length.
> 
> I’m in agreement with you. Let’s see what others think.
> 
> Thanks for this interesting discussion!
> -Vincent
> 
>> --
>> View this message in context: 
>> 

Re: [xwiki-users] display page title and name(url) while creating a page

[Vincent Massol]

Hi Vishal,

Ok, I misunderstood you in your first email. I understood the opposite. I 
thought you were complaining that have 2 notions (page name + page title) was 
confusing but it’s actually the opposite! What you find confusing is the fact 
that it’s not easy for your users to set both the page name and page titles!

It’s funny (or not :)) since this is exactly what we had in past versions of 
XWiki and we had several complaints that it was confusing to have the 2 notions 
and this is why he hid the page name only for advanced users.

See below.

> On 20 Apr 2017, at 14:20, Vishal  wrote:
> 
> Thanks Vincent for your thorough reply..
> You guessed it right. We intend to have clean and short urls for SEO
> reasons. 
> Current scheme creates two problems:
> 
> 1) The Page name is fetched automatically from the Title. Often the titles
> have spaces which translate as *percent characters *in url which makes it
> somewhat unclean :)

Indeed you’re right. By hiding the page name we’re now incitating to have 
longer URLs and encoded characters showing up in URLs which is not nice I agree.

Maybe one solution is to do something similar to what we do in AWM, i.e. 
generate automatically the URL from the title entered by the user and show the 
resulting URL to the user and give the user the opportunity to change the URL.

See 
http://extensions.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Extension/App%20Within%20Minutes%20Application/AppWithinMinutes-Step1.png

> 2) Secondly, to have the shorter url, we use only the short forms of
> complete title. 
> Ex. For title 'Pune University' we use name PU. 

Hey, you’re from Pune? :) I’ve been there about 15 times! That was in a 
previous job where my company and KPIT Cummins were partners.

> Otherwise in this hierarchy of pages, the url would be much longer. 
> Ex. We have page 'Electronics and Telecommunications' branch under page
> 'Pune University'. We should not have such a long url. Instead here we need
> PU/ENTC or Pune-University/ENTC
> 
> To avoid all this, what we currently do:
> 1) On create page dialog, use PU as title.. This will create url as PU.
> If full name is used here as title, we need to use - instead of spaces to
> avoid percent characters in url.
> 2) While in edit mode, change the title back to Pune University. Remove any
> - characters to make title clean.
> This is where confusion creeps in.
> 
> If these two terms create confusion, why I need to show them both:
> I guess the *confusion is due to term Name*. It doesn't reflect actual usage
> of the term. URL or weblink or link or web address would be more apt terms
> to use to instead of Name. 

Regarding Page name vs Page URL.

A bit of history: The reason we used page name and not page URL originally is 
because what the user is creating is a document in the database and initially 
it was called Document Name. Since that was a bit confusing for users, we had 
decided to call it Page Name. It just happened that the URL used was directly 
derived from the document/page name.

In practice the 3 concepts could have different values:
* a value for the document’s name in the DB
* another value for the document’s title
* yet another value used in the URL.

We’ve had discussions so that we could let the user provide shorter URLs for 
pages in the future.

Now for the time being and since we don’t have this ATM, I think I agree with 
you that we could decide to display to the user the URL that will be generated 
(the encoded URL) and allow the user to change it. Internally the user would 
change the document name.

> My users can differentiate between Title and URL. But the whole procedure we
> follow is certainly not understandable by all. And we definitely need to
> follow this whole long procedure, just to have short and clean urls.

Yes, if you’re asking your users to care about the URLs that get generated, 
right now they need to be advanced users to be able to edit the page name in 
the Create Page UI (since changing the title afterwards is too cumbersome).

> So, by showing both fields at the first place itself, I would like to
> shorten the procedure and url length.

I’m in agreement with you. Let’s see what others think.

Thanks for this interesting discussion!
-Vincent

> --
> View this message in context: 
> http://xwiki.475771.n2.nabble.com/Page-Title-and-Name-confusion-tp7603546p7603551.html
> Sent from the XWiki- Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Re: [xwiki-users] display page title and name(url) while creating a page

[Vishal]

Thanks Vincent for your thorough reply..
You guessed it right. We intend to have clean and short urls for SEO
reasons. 
Current scheme creates two problems:

1) The Page name is fetched automatically from the Title. Often the titles
have spaces which translate as *percent characters *in url which makes it
somewhat unclean :)

2) Secondly, to have the shorter url, we use only the short forms of
complete title. 
Ex. For title 'Pune University' we use name PU. 
Otherwise in this hierarchy of pages, the url would be much longer. 
Ex. We have page 'Electronics and Telecommunications' branch under page
'Pune University'. We should not have such a long url. Instead here we need
PU/ENTC or Pune-University/ENTC

To avoid all this, what we currently do:
1) On create page dialog, use PU as title.. This will create url as PU.
If full name is used here as title, we need to use - instead of spaces to
avoid percent characters in url.
2) While in edit mode, change the title back to Pune University. Remove any
- characters to make title clean.
This is where confusion creeps in.

If these two terms create confusion, why I need to show them both:
I guess the *confusion is due to term Name*. It doesn't reflect actual usage
of the term. URL or weblink or link or web address would be more apt terms
to use to instead of Name. 

My users can differentiate between Title and URL. But the whole procedure we
follow is certainly not understandable by all. And we definitely need to
follow this whole long procedure, just to have short and clean urls.
So, by showing both fields at the first place itself, I would like to
shorten the procedure and url length.



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Re: [xwiki-users] display page title and name(url) while creating a page

[Vincent Massol]

Hi Vishal,

That’s an interesting feedback. We’ve tried to already solve this issue in 
recent versions of XWiki by having a simplified Page Creation UI but apparently 
you think there’s still a problem so we need to discuss that to try to find a 
solution.

> On 20 Apr 2017, at 07:31, Vishal  wrote:
> 
> I want to display Page Name field only while page creation.
> By default currently it is shown as:
> 
>  

Note that on this screenshot the only thing that the use fills is “Title”. Why 
is that causing a confusion?

Technically we have both notions: Page name and Title. But in the UI shown to 
the users they only see Title (and internally set the page name to be that 
title). So they don’t need to know about the Page name concept. I’m curious to 
know why your users know about the page name concept.

> It is creating a lot of confusion for my users between Title and Name, and I
> don't suppose to explain it to them all. They couldn't understand this
> complexity..

You just need to explain to them the title concept. I’m referring to simple 
users of your wiki. Of course if you also have developers doing scripting in 
the wiki then they probably need to understand both concepts.

Now if you really want to explain the difference between the 2:
* Page name is to control the URL displayed, so that you can hand-craft nice 
URLs for SEO reasons or other
* Title is simply what gets displayed in the UI when you view a page

> 1) I wish to remove the Title field from this Page creation dialog and
> display url field instead.
> Currently, by clicking the pencil/edit icon, the parent and name fields are
> displayed.
> 
>  

Only advanced users have the options to click this pencil button. And our 
rationale is that advanced users know the difference between page name and 
title.

> 2) Is there any way to set this edit icon by default to display these
> fields?

I’m lost here. You’re saying that there’s a confusion and you want to always 
show both fields? :)

> 3) And can I rename Name field to URL/Link to clear the confusions??

If you’re prepared to bring changes to your instance, you can modify everything 
in xwiki. You can do this by creating a custom skin and overriding the 
createinline.vm template.

But first I’d like that we find an agreement about what would be best for XWiki 
since maybe there’s something we need to do on our side to clear any confusion.

Thanks
-Vincent

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