[VIHUELA] Re: early music in the 19th century
On 03/05/2012 21:38, David van Ooijen wrote: On 3 May 2012 22:33, Stuart Walsh wrote: (And you both have posh sound set-ups?) Anything but. Just a mic (Rode NT-1) rather bothersome in view. Haven't found a way yet to angle the camera so that the mic is not obstruction view to the hands (actually, I did find a way - see my MeesterDavidGitaar channel aimed at my pupils who must see my hands - but that makes my elegant Fabricatore look like a fat-bellied steelstring ...) David Even better! What is the mic plugged into? Straight into the computer? Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: early music in the 19th century
On 03/05/2012 11:51, David van Ooijen wrote: > Napoleon Coste was interested in music by Robert de Visee. See four of > his arrangements here: > > [1]http://youtu.be/Ypx1_5daSpQ > > David > Very elegant performance and playing. And it's great to hear you (and Rob on ning) playing early 19th century guitar music. (And you both have posh sound set-ups?) Stuart -- References 1. http://youtu.be/Ypx1_5daSpQ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: A courante from Panmure 5 and now a Lilt
On 28/03/2012 18:16, wayne cripps wrote: Actually I should qualify that by saying that I *believe* it is all by Mesangeau, and I believe that it is in his hand, not in a student's hand. One clue is the squiggle at the end of each piece - it is a stylized "M". I don't have my references with me here, but probably the CNRS volume would tell you more. Wayne But Rob arranged another lute piece for five-course guitar - which he notes is also from Panmure 5: Lady Lothian's Lilt: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iS47U9fGfjA Now that can't be Mesangeau... Monica pointed out a courante by Mesangeau buried somewhere in Foscarini. So Rob's arrangement of this untitled Panmure 5 (French - not Scottish-French?) courante has an important precedent. This Panmure 5 courante and the Mesangeau courante in Foscarini sound more like correntes than courantes to me. I used to have a Baroque lute and struggled many's the time through entirely tuneless French courantes. Stuart Begin forwarded message: From: "Monica Hall" Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: A courante from Panmure 5 arranged for Baroque guitar by Rob MacKillop Date: March 28, 2012 12:56:17 PM EDT To: "wayne cripps" Cc: "Vihuelalist" That's very interesting. Is all the music by Mesangeau? - Original Message - From: "wayne cripps" To: "Monica Hall" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 5:38 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: A courante from Panmure 5 arranged for Baroque guitar by Rob MacKillop The Panmure 5 manuscript is in a Scottish collection, but it was bought in France. It is the work of Rene Mesangeau, most likely written down by a student. In the flat and sharp tunings. Wayne On Mar 28, 2012, at 12:16 PM, Monica Hall wrote: That's the source Rob and Stuart got the piece from. It seems it is definitely Scottish. Monica - Original Message - From: "Edward Martin" To: "Monica Hall"; "Edward Martin" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 2:23 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: A courante from Panmure 5 arranged for Baroque guitar by Rob MacKillop I think it was Panmure 5. ed At 06:24 AM 3/28/2012, Monica Hall wrote: I wonder what Jakob's source was. The version for guitarre theorbee is much simplified - in spite of it having 5 courses plus 7 diapasons! Monica - Original Message - From: "Edward Martin" To: "Monica Hall"; "Stuart Walsh" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 12:57 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: A courante from Panmure 5 arranged for Baroque guitar by Rob MacKillop Hi Monica, The Courante in question is a tune that was played on Jakob Lindberg's old LP of Scottish pieces, recorded in the 80's. It is a most lovely piece, for 10 course lute, in transitional tuning. At 04:42 PM 3/27/2012, Monica Hall wrote: It's very nice attempt. This is one of the pieces on Rob's CD. When I first heard it it sounded so familiar I am sure that I have come across it in another baroque guitar source. I wonder if anyone else recognises it. Monica Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] A courante from Panmure 5 arranged for Baroque guitar by Rob MacKillop
Rob arranged some Scottish lute pieces for Baroque guitar a while ago. Here's a go at an untitled piece, a courante, from Panmure 5. Guitar made by Bill Samson. The burn is running into Loch Garry. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIT9JJq_uvk Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Mazurka by A. Sychra for seven-course guitar (1820s)
Here is an attempt at a mazurka by A. Sychra (who is supposed to have invented the instrument - i.e. the seven strings and the G tuning). Alexander Batov has kindly translated the title for me: "You'd rather be ready to dance and merry" and found the original text/lyrics. It's about a kozak (cossack) returning form the Battle of Poltava. And he's calling Marusya to meet him. I'm not strong on British history let alone the history of this neck of the woods. An extremely cursory glance at Internet sources suggests the Russians won, the Swedes lost and teh Ukrainians lost hope hope of independence. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLCDyfhJVyc Stuart You really do play very nicely. A pity you seem to have abandonned my beloved baroque guitar. When can we have some more Foscarini? Monica Many thanks Monica! Sychra's little mazurka is very cute. Alongside Sychra, the other major figure of the first generation of Russian seven-stringers was Vysotsky. and there is a sort of parallel between Vysotsky and Foscarini. Vystosky was an uneducated serf (that's not the parallel) and his music (lots of it), published in the 19th century was either after his death or outside of his supervision...or something or other. Anyway, there is a stack of it in the British Library (the only 19th century Russian guitar music I've found in Britain). And a lot of it really doesn't make much sense at all as it stands (that's the parallel!). Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Mazurka by A. Sychra for seven-course guitar (1820s)
Here is an attempt at a mazurka by A. Sychra (who is supposed to have invented the instrument - i.e. the seven strings and the G tuning). Alexander Batov has kindly translated the title for me: "You'd rather be ready to dance and merry" and found the original text/lyrics. It's about a kozak (cossack) returning form the Battle of Poltava. And he's calling Marusya to meet him. I'm not strong on British history let alone the history of this neck of the woods. An extremely cursory glance at Internet sources suggests the Russians won, the Swedes lost and teh Ukrainians lost hope hope of independence. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLCDyfhJVyc Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Adjustable 19th-century guitar necks [was: Russian 'romance' for 7-string guitar]
On 29/02/2012 18:26, Braig, Eugene wrote: Again, sorry for MS Outlook's default reply. (if I reply at the bottom, Outlook does not insert extra>-s, so my reply would become indistinguishable from the last note without manual insertions at each line. I so miss Eudora.) The detachable-neck thing largely came of Austrian/Germanic guitars in the early 1820s and is sometimes attributed to the virtuoso Legnani's (1790-1877) commissions from the Staufer/Stauffer shop in Vienna. Such guitars (at least the 6-string, mainstream European varieties) are even often referred to as "Legnani model," and some of them from the Stauffer shop are so labeled. The style was even carried to early production of classical guitars in the US via C.F. Martin's shop (a protégé of Stauffer) starting in 1833. As much as anything, the clock-key mechanism installed in the heel of such guitars is to allow easy adjustments to action/neck angle without needing to perform minor surgery to the bridge or major surgery to the head block. The fact that the neck is also thus removable is convenient byproduct (e.g., I've never seen a travel case built to accommodate such a guitar with neck detached, and I've seen a lot of such guitars in cases). You wouldn't pop the neck off when under tension or fully strung. Coincidence and unrelated to the adjustable neck, but many such guitars also had a "scroll-in-profile" headstock with all tuners arrayed along one side. You can see one of my own such pieces here: http://earlyguitar.ning.com/photo/photo/search?q=placht (this a guitar by the Placht Brothers--Gebrüder Placht--of Pest before the city's unification into Budapest). Here is a piece by Glaesel of Markneukirchen (currently owned by a friend of mine) with a more "universal"-type peghead of the time, but with the adjustable neck and clock-key port in the heel visible from a couple angles: http://www.demosguitars.com/index.php/Guitars/vintage/karl_august_glaesel/. You can see a slew of such things here: http://www.earlyromanticguitar.com/erg/builders.htm#Staufer (all this paragraph's links to the more mainstream European, 6-string variety). Regarding the history of the 7-string guitar in Russia, here is a brief excerpt from Timofeyev's site (previously linked) regarding his dissertation (note that Oleg label's the early half of the 19th-c. as the "Golden Era" for this repertoire): Dr. Oleg Timofeyev: Dissertation abstract The Golden Age of the Russian Guitar: Repertoire, Performance Practice, and Social Function of the Russian Seven-String Guitar Music, 1800-1850, PhD diss., Duke U., 1999. 584 p. Order from UMI: UMI AAI9928880 Abstract: This dissertation is the first scholarly attempt in any language to address the all-but-forgotten Russian seven-string guitar tradition. The most distinctive feature of this instrument is its "open-chord" tuning (D G B d g b d'). In chapter one, a number of organological links are discussed that shed light on the origin of the instrument, arguing that the Russian guitar was the result of a cross-fertilization between the Spanish guitar and the 18th-century cittern. Numerous examples from literature, personal diaries, and visual arts collected in chapter two document the important role this guitar played for the Russian noble and middle class during the first half of the nineteenth century. Chapter three presents in detail the lives and works of the three guitarists-composers who founded the unique musical style for the instrument: Andrei Sychra, Semion Aksionov, and Mikhail Vysotsky. The variety of ways in which Russian folk songs were incorporated into their wor! ks presents the special focus of chapter four, since it is precisely this inclusion of folk material that gives the repertoire its particularly Russian sound. Finally, in chapter five the musical climate among the guitarists of the 1840s (Morkov, Liakhov, Sarenko, Vetrov, Zimmerman) is discussed, with emphasis on their connection to the works of the previous generation. A translation of the entire text of Mikhail Stakhovich's 1854 "Essay on the History of the Seven-String Guitar" is appended, since this text is a unique testimony of an active participant and first historian of the tradition. On the accompanying CD, twenty short compositions from this tradition are recorded. ...And I don't believe I've remembered to say so yet, but thanks for sharing another lovely performance, Stuart. Thanks. And can I say that Oleg Timofeyev's PhD is a very interesting read. You'd never guess it was a boring old PhD thesis! Stuart Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Monica Hall Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 11:44 AM To: Stuart Walsh Cc: Vihuelalist Subject: [VIH
[VIHUELA] Re: 19th century Russian 'romance' for 7-string guitar
On 29/02/2012 16:44, Monica Hall wrote: Quite pleasant to listen to but it sound just like the dreaded classical guitar. Excuse my ignorance but in what way are Russian guitars different from ordinary ones? I think that that small 19th century guitars sound quite a bit different from big modern classical guitars (and especially when the 19th century instruments are gut-string and played without nails). Russian guitars have seven-strings and are tuned to a G major chord (a bit like the Foscarini scordatura pieces!). There is an extensive repertoire in a range of keys using fancy techniques like campanella. Hardly any of it can be described as technically easy. Very interesting...what does it look like? Is it guitar shaped? Monica Yes, the typical Russian guitar looks like a typical 19th century guitar - but with seven strings. The neck is detachable (and still is on modern factory made instruments) but detachable necks are not unique to Russian guitars. Well - how do you detach the neck - with the strings attached? Do you mean it kind of folds away? Eugene explains more in his reply. If you take the strings off you can unscrew the neck and take it off. Oleg says that's how he used to travel with the instrument and when he sold a guitar to me it came with neck detached. When you attach the neck and put the strings on you don't fully tighten the neck. It's the tension of the strings that holds the neck tight! In fact the neck is, as it were, wobblable - you can pull it back a bit. The underneath of the fingerboard hovers over the soundboard. (And modern factory made instruments are made this way too.) How did such a monstrosity come in to being in the middle of the 18th century when we miserable Europeans were still making do with five courses? There is no record of it before the 1790s - and (I'm fairly sure) the late 1790s. They aren't monstrosities, they're rather pretty little things. Oleg Timofeyev is the modern champion of the the 19th century Russian guitar. I don't know how far it will ever catch on though. You have to learn to read music in G tuning and the music is often - usually - technically very demanding. A good case for using tablature. They didn't use tablature but they did devise a way of indicating which finger/string/fret to use in complicated passages. Modern Russian guitar seems just like modern classical guitar: big, loud, fast... plus a ton of gypsy kitschery. Not sure that it's really my thing. Five courses good, six strings bad, seven strings worse and then there are the open diapasons. Did they have them in the 18th century as well. Most of the pictures of Oleg Timofeyev are of him with his Russian guitar with extra basses. Such instruments are from the 19th century not the 18th. Stuart Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: 19th century Russian 'romance' for 7-string guitar
On 29/02/2012 13:32, Monica Hall wrote: - Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" To: "Monica Hall" Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 12:59 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: 19th century Russian 'romance' for 7-string guitar On 29/02/2012 12:47, Monica Hall wrote: - Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" To: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 10:23 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] 19th century Russian 'romance' for 7-string guitar Here is an attempt at a mid 19th century Russian guitar arrangement of a song (a 'romance') - on a mid 19th century Russian guitar. The arranger is N. Alexandrov and the title is 'Heart' and the composer is A.L. Guriljev. Many thanks to Alexander Batov for the the translations, the link to information on Guriljev and a link to a modern performance of this song. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96YN_zXi-hg The strings on Russian guitars (and still on modern, factory made guitars) are very close together! Do Russians have especially small hands? Stuart Quite pleasant to listen to but it sound just like the dreaded classical guitar. Excuse my ignorance but in what way are Russian guitars different from ordinary ones? I think that that small 19th century guitars sound quite a bit different from big modern classical guitars (and especially when the 19th century instruments are gut-string and played without nails). Russian guitars have seven-strings and are tuned to a G major chord (a bit like the Foscarini scordatura pieces!). There is an extensive repertoire in a range of keys using fancy techniques like campanella. Hardly any of it can be described as technically easy. Very interesting...what does it look like? Is it guitar shaped? Monica Yes, the typical Russian guitar looks like a typical 19th century guitar - but with seven strings. The neck is detachable (and still is on modern factory made instruments) but detachable necks are not unique to Russian guitars. Oleg Timofeyev is the modern champion of the the 19th century Russian guitar. I don't know how far it will ever catch on though. You have to learn to read music in G tuning and the music is often - usually - technically very demanding. Modern Russian guitar seems just like modern classical guitar: big, loud, fast... plus a ton of gypsy kitschery. Stuart Stuart Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: 19th century Russian 'romance' for 7-string guitar
Here is an attempt at a mid 19th century Russian guitar arrangement of a song (a 'romance') - on a mid 19th century Russian guitar. The arranger is N. Alexandrov and the title is 'Heart' and the composer is A.L. Guriljev. Quite pleasant to listen to but it sound just like the dreaded classical guitar. Excuse my ignorance but in what way are Russian guitars different from ordinary ones? Monica I think that that small 19th century guitars sound quite a bit different from big modern classical guitars (and especially when the 19th century instruments are gut-string and played without nails). Russian guitars have seven-strings and are tuned to a G major chord (a bit like the Foscarini scordatura pieces!). There is an extensive repertoire in a range of keys using fancy techniques like campanella. Hardly any of it can be described as technically easy. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] 19th century Russian 'romance' for 7-string guitar
Here is an attempt at a mid 19th century Russian guitar arrangement of a song (a 'romance') - on a mid 19th century Russian guitar. The arranger is N. Alexandrov and the title is 'Heart' and the composer is A.L. Guriljev. Many thanks to Alexander Batov for the the translations, the link to information on Guriljev and a link to a modern performance of this song. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96YN_zXi-hg The strings on Russian guitars (and still on modern, factory made guitars) are very close together! Do Russians have especially small hands? Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: 3 short pieces from the Ulm MS for mandore
On 10/01/2012 17:41, Chris Despopoulos wrote: Very nice... I would love to see this ms some day. Your little guitar sounds very nice. As for tuning the mandore, I believe the Chancy ms has three different tunings. His ms seems to be for a plectrum -- well, I was taught that he marks up and down strokes, so that would indicate. He doesn't give absolute pitches, he just tunes to the frets. But the tunings are (from memory): --h D --a--f- A -a--f-- D a-- G --h D --a--f- A -a--h-- D a-- A --h D --a--f- A -a--e-- D a-- F# The last one is pretty interesting, for the second suite. But I haven't managed to pull the whole suite together yet. Drat... I hope I haven't stuck my foot into it -- I need to pull the ms out of storage and verify that these really are the tunings he has. Between work and the guitar, I'm afraid my poor mandore has languished. As have my powers of memory. cud _ Thank Chris. There are three entries in the Cornetto catalogue for mandore, and I think they are all MSS from Ulm. I just got number 35 and it came as two separate little books: one with a small number of pieces for a four-course instrument - which could be played with a plectrum. Like the Chancy pieces, which you play, it takes a skilful player to play them. It's not single line stuff. And the larger book (with over 120 pieces) is for a five-course instrument and needs some kind of fingerstyle approach (maybe fingers alone, maybe fingers and plectrum etc) I'm sure you are right, there are three tunings - (the difference only in the first course), e.g. in Chancy and in Gallot. In the book I've got from Ulm for five-course, there are just two tunings. Only a very few have the first course down a tone. (and as Rob pointed out, there is a section in the Skene MS for a tuning like the top five courses of a Renaissance lute) Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: 3 short pieces from the Ulm MS for mandore
On 08/01/2012 12:48, Monica Hall wrote: The Scottish, Skene mandore MS is more well known but the Ulm MS of French mandore music (of the same time) is very good too. And the pieces are much more carefully notated. Here are a couple of courantes and a gavotte - played on a very small guitar with a string length of 37 cms. Perhaps there were at least two sizes of mandore: the really tiny (c. 30cm string length), four-course mandore (some Ulm stuff, Chancy) , played with a plectrum and a slightly larger, five course instrument ((Skene, Ulm, Gallot) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnC0b9w8QyU Stuart Very nice but what is mandore tuning in this context? Thanks. I don't know what you mean 'context'? I think the tuning of the mandore at the time of its popularity was more or less fixed... apart from the first course. So a four-course mandore was 5-4-5 (e.g.: g-d-g-d) and a five-course instrument was 4-5-4-5 (e.g.: d-g-d-g-d). Of course the actual pitch might be different. But on either four- or five-course instruments the top course could be re-tuned: e.g. a tone lower. But the bottom courses were not re-tuned. So the mandore tuning is quite different from the mandolino tuning in fourths (but not that that difference makes it a different instrument). Stuart Stuart Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] 3 short pieces from the Ulm MS for mandore
The Scottish, Skene mandore MS is more well known but the Ulm MS of French mandore music (of the same time) is very good too. And the pieces are much more carefully notated. Here are a couple of courantes and a gavotte - played on a very small guitar with a string length of 37 cms. Perhaps there were at least two sizes of mandore: the really tiny (c. 30cm string length), four-course mandore (some Ulm stuff, Chancy) , played with a plectrum and a slightly larger, five course instrument ((Skene, Ulm, Gallot) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnC0b9w8QyU Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Taro Takeuchi videos
On 22/12/2011 10:32, Stuart Walsh wrote: On 22/12/2011 08:07, David van Ooijen wrote: Both videos removed by user. What a pity, I would have loved to see Taro so his strumming. David Evidently they were drafts. These link should work. Corbetta __SORRY, improvisation not Corbetta Geminiani (!) Ferr[n]andiere http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSWsIH_HyQc 'English guitar' Handel Straube and reel on pianoforte-guitar! http://www.youtube.com/user/TakeuchiTaro?feature=watch#p/u/0/N4HxtTR49Js Stuart Taro has developed a striking way of strumming. He says it has nothing to do with flamenco. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6r0iO5p0ydU&feature=related And some 'English guitar' pieces. The last one is played on a 'pianoforte guitar', Possibly he's the first to revive this in modern times. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9xhQdslzH8 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Taro Takeuchi videos
On 22/12/2011 08:07, David van Ooijen wrote: Both videos removed by user. What a pity, I would have loved to see Taro so his strumming. David Evidently they were drafts. These link should work. Corbetta Geminiani (!) Ferr[n]andiere http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSWsIH_HyQc 'English guitar' Handel Straube and reel on pianoforte-guitar! http://www.youtube.com/user/TakeuchiTaro?feature=watch#p/u/0/N4HxtTR49Js Stuart Taro has developed a striking way of strumming. He says it has nothing to do with flamenco. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6r0iO5p0ydU&feature=related And some 'English guitar' pieces. The last one is played on a 'pianoforte guitar', Possibly he's the first to revive this in modern times. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9xhQdslzH8 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Taro Takeuchi videos
Taro has put up some videos, playing guitar and 18th century cittern. The first video has extracts of music played on three different guitars - some Corbetta, something from the second half of the18th century and something (I think) from the early 19th century. Taro has developed a striking way of strumming. He says it has nothing to do with flamenco. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6r0iO5p0ydU&feature=related And some 'English guitar' pieces. The last one is played on a 'pianoforte guitar', Possibly he's the first to revive this in modern times. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9xhQdslzH8 Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
On 12/12/2011 17:24, Monica Hall wrote:
Having a quick look at Meucci's article again there are a few other
things which I think need to be clarified.
The first of these is that in Millioni's 1631 book the 4-course
instrument is referred to as
"il Chitarrino, overo Chitarra Italiana" which suggests that it was a
small lute rather than a 4-course guitar.
Meucci points out that the first edition of the contemporary Italian
dictionary Vocabolario della Crusca printed in 1612 defines the
Chitarra as "a kind of lute, which lacks the bass and soprano".
He gives a lot of other examples where it is clear that the Chitarra
Italiana was a small lute.
Giustiniani also distinguishes between the chitarra alla spagnola and
the chitarra napolitana.
Stuart mentioned Calvi's book. The pieces in tablature are preceded
by the note "Le seguenti Suonate servire anche per la chitarriglia, ma
sono veramente per la Chitarra". Although Meucci doesn't mention this
instance it seems to me that the "Chitarra" here is also a small
lute. The music is quite different from other music for 5-course
instrument. No strummed chords and no 6/4 chords either.
You can't assume that the term "chitarra" refers to the 5-course
guitar.
As ever
Monica
Very interesting, Monica. Is Meucci's article readily available anywhere? More
to the point, is it in in English? And better still is there a good summary of
the key points somewhere!!
You say
"il Chitarrino, overo Chitarra Italiana" which suggests that it was a
small lute rather than a 4-course guitar.
"
I've heard some sceptical mutterings over the years about the Chitarra
Italiana. But now it simply sounds like an Italian version of the mandore
which is some kind of survival of the medieval gittern/quintern... small,
lute-shaped. The mandore became popular in France in the 1580s and the Skene
and Ulm MSS from the 1620s have hundreds of pieces. Donald Gill thought that
the five-course mandore would probably have been a bit bigger than the really
tiny four-course instruments. The tuning of the mandore typically is 5-4-5 (but
the top string could be lowered in some tunings) and this tuning is not at all
like a guitar. The Skene MS does have a section with the mandore tuned like a
lute, though.
So: is the 'chitarra Italiana" really just a mandore? (small or smallish,
lute-shaped, even,perhaps, carved from the solid in some instances? But with more of
a sickle pegbox than a lute pegbox).
But then there is the angle which seems to have tickled Roman T: that the
chitarra Italiana is not from lute/gittern lineage at all. I've only read tiny
pieces pieces about the Meucci article but the suggestion seems to be a
non-Moorish origin? Or, was Ralf hinting that 'humanist' writers in Italy,
writing fancifully, (does Meucci chart all of this?)fancied the origin of the
little lute in ancient Greek depictions of the 'pandurina'?
Stuart
Original Message -
From: "Monica Hall"<[1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
To: "Martyn Hodgson"<[2]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Cc: "Vihuelalist"<[3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 4:02 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari
guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
>
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari
guitar
> [was Re: Capona?]}
>
>>a small 4 course guitar (as described by Cerreto in his 1601
Neapolitan
>>publication).
>
> The instrument described by Cerreto is not a guitar - at least
according to
> Meucci. Cerreto actually describes it as "lo Strumento della
Chitarra a
> sette Corde, detto Bordelletto alla Taliana". It is a 4-course
instrument
> with a re-entrant tuning which as he says is imperfetto, por causa
che in
> esso non vi sono tutte le voci graue como habbiamo nel Strumento del
Liuto".
> He does however mention that the instrument can be strummed.
>
> Cerreto's book was published in Naples and the instrument he was
describing
> was probably the same as the Chitarrina alla Napoletana called for
in the
> Intermedia i.e. a small lute. The chitarrina alla spagnola was
> probably the 5-course Spanish guitar. In 1689 these instruments had
to be
> imported to Florence specially which suggests that they were not in
common
> use in northern Italy.
>
> Sebastian Virdung also describes and illustrates the "Lauten" and
> "Quintern";
> the quintern is a small lute.
>
> Incidentally the four pieces in Barberiis' book for a 4-course
instrument
> are also probably for a "Chitarrina alla Napoletana" - they are
notated in
> "Spanish" tablature i.e. the top line is the highest course.
>
> You hav
[VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]
On 11/12/2011 18:55, Monica Hall wrote: A pandora is a lute shaped wire-strung instrument. It is one of the instruments which forms part of the broken consort for which Morley et al composed music. Monica Not lute-shaped, Monica! Stuart - Original Message - From: "Lex Eisenhardt" To: "Stuart Walsh" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 6:42 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?] What is a pandora? (obviously not a bandora) Agazzari's boombox? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]
On 11/12/2011 18:39, Roman Turovsky wrote: Ancient Greek lute, ancestor of Balkan tamburas. RT - Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" To: "Lex Eisenhardt" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 1:37 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?] On 11/12/2011 16:54, Lex Eisenhardt wrote: By its tuning, the chitarrino napolitana from Conserto vago does not link up with the alfabeto tradition, as does Millioni’s chitarrino Italiana. If Agazzari had a chitarrino napolitana in mind—hand plucked or played with a plectrum, then there is more reason to suppose that melodic improvisations were played on it, as they were on the violin and pandora Lex, What is a pandora? (obviously not a bandora) Stuart , which are mentioned in the same breath. best wishes, Lex - Original Message - From: "wikla" To: "Martyn Hodgson" Cc: "Vihuelalist" ; "Lex Eisenhardt" Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 4:03 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?] Well, Oliver Strunk writes "chitarrino". As far as I know, chitarrino, 4 course "renaissance guitar", was not at all unknown in Italy in times of Agazzari... But I have never heard about "chitarrina", but of course that does not exclude its existence... ;-) best regards, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]
On 11/12/2011 16:54, Lex Eisenhardt wrote: By its tuning, the chitarrino napolitana from Conserto vago does not link up with the alfabeto tradition, as does Millioni’s chitarrino Italiana. If Agazzari had a chitarrino napolitana in mind—hand plucked or played with a plectrum, then there is more reason to suppose that melodic improvisations were played on it, as they were on the violin and pandora Lex, What is a pandora? (obviously not a bandora) Stuart , which are mentioned in the same breath. best wishes, Lex - Original Message - From: "wikla" To: "Martyn Hodgson" Cc: "Vihuelalist" ; "Lex Eisenhardt" Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 4:03 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?] Well, Oliver Strunk writes "chitarrino". As far as I know, chitarrino, 4 course "renaissance guitar", was not at all unknown in Italy in times of Agazzari... But I have never heard about "chitarrina", but of course that does not exclude its existence... ;-) best regards, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [Chitarra Italiana/o]
On 11/12/2011 16:17, R. Mattes wrote: Hmm, as if there where a fixed terminology at that time ... Thank's to those silly humanists writers, from the end of the 15. century on writers started to use 'chitarra' for all sorts of stinged instuments (plucked). So we have chitarra for 'lute' (Tincoris), harp (Glarean), (renaissance) guitar etc. Not to forget chitarrone (literally: huge chitarra). It might even be that Sgn. Agazzari wants to make a distinction between the chitarrone and smaller (treble) lutes here. To limit the translation of 'citarrin[a/o]' to "renaissance guitar" seems bold. Seems a good time to bring up the Chitarra Italiana.(Italiano) According to Schlegel and Luedtke, " the term "Chitarra" does not mean the 8-shaped guitar but the Kithara, the plucked string instrument of ancient Greece. In the Renaissance its name was applied to a lute instrument. There were small "Chitarini" and the large "Chitarone." To avoid confusion, the Italians right until the middle of the 17th century called the guitar, "Chitarra Spagnuola". In their book, 'The Lute in Europe 2', they have a picture of an odd-looking 9-peg, five-course "Chitarra Italiana". It has a lute body but the pegbox is more like that of a mandore or gittern. And here's the brief wiki entry: Chitarra Italiana is a lute-shaped plucked instrument with 4 or 5 single (sometimes double) strings, in a tuning similar to that of guitar. It was common in Italy during the Renaissance Era. It is believed to have descended from Panduras, the Mediterranean lutes of Antiquity, and to be related to north African Quitra (or Kitra). Its bass variety was known as Chitaronne. . I think this is all coming from the work of an Italian musicologist (whose name I can't remember nor find) who wrote on this topic in the 1990s. Possibly Monica once suggested that the well-known Calvi publication was for this instrument (and not a five-course guitar) It's strange that an awareness of this instrument only emerged in the 1990s. I don't think Tyler ever mentioned it. I've never come across any references to it other than the work of this Italian musicologist (and now Schlegel and Luedtke). I thought all the variations of chitarra, gittern, guitar etc have some ultimate roots in some actual or imagined Greek instrument It's not just a hypothesis working backwards from the actual existence of the chitarrone, is it? Stuart But I have never heard about "chitarrina", but of course that does not exclude its existence... ;-) Then you missed something - yummy italian pasta!! [1] And not even totally off-topic here since the name probably refers to the production process: pressing some pasta dough through a wired frame (somehow like an oversized egg-cutter) that might remind one of a harp (->chitarra) :-) Cheers, Ralf Mattes [1] [1]http://www.dececco.it/EN/Egg-Pasta/Specialities/chitarrina-abruzzese-all-uovo -399/?Prodotto=159 To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.dececco.it/EN/Egg-Pasta/Specialities/chitarrina-abruzzese-all-uovo-399/?Prodotto=159 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Capona?
On 09/12/2011 22:06, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: Well, the waltz was nasty because people held each other closely while dancing. There's even a funny quote from 1799 in Grove about people waltzing in the "dark corner" of the room. I think the sarabanda and ciacona garnered comments from some shocked Europeans in the 17th century or earlier. Maybe some performers are making the most (too much?) of it now to sell CDs, but the dances really did seem to scandalize Europeans back in the day. Perhaps more than choreography bothered them (with the Spanish/New World dances): rhythms, instrumentation, topics, maybe even the cultural group the music originated from? The eroticised other, indeed. Yesteryear's hip hop? Jocelyn From: Monica Hall<[1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2011 21:42:03 + To: Stuart Walsh<[2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com> Cc: Vihuelalist<[3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Capona? ----- Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh"<[4]s.wa...@ntlworld.com> To: "Monica Hall"<[5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> Cc: "Vihuelalist"<[6]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 9:11 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Capona? Exactly! I think this present day obsession with the idea that the dances were obscene and that being banned gives them some sort of instrinsic merit is a bit wide of the mark. Monica, who is obsessed with obscenity and early dance!? You should get out more and read more of the liner notes to CDs made by groups like Les Otros! When I read, a while ago, that the early 'sarabanda' had been banned for lewdness in some places, I thought that that was just extraordinary. And now the capona too, good grief! I think it would be fascinating to know what they were on about. I think they waved their arms about a bit and wiggled their hips. If you have Lute 2007 you will see the illustration on the front cover. It's on my Facebook site too. (I've got a book tucked away somewhere which says the same thing about the 19th century waltz) Sounds familiar. Monica (I just went to see ENO's production of Castor and Pollux in which the artists spent a lot of taking their knickers off - unthinkable in Rameau's time. They were actually quite prudish. But I can see now why Guerau in his Poema Harmonica says something to the effect that studying his complicated and difficult variations on the dance pieces will keep you out of trouble. Well he actaully says "Use it to banish idleness and raise your heart to God". But that's the sort of thing that they say in these prefaces. They were very high minded. How many players on this list raise their hearts to God when playing? Monica -- R On Dec 8, 2011, at 5:58 PM, Eloy Cruz wrote: Dear Stuart, list This is from Cotarelo y Mori's "Coleccion": p. CCXXXVII. Capona (La) (Baile). Dicc. de Autoridades: ^3Son o baile a modo de la Mariona; pero mas rapido y bullicioso, con el cual y a cuyo tanido se cantan varias coplillas^2. A very bad English translation could be: Music and dance in the way of a Mariona, but faster and noisier; to which music they use to sing several small coplas. In a 17th cent. Spanish play, one of the characters says he won't dance to that music, because it is "of very bad circumstances", because the word capon is used to refer to a man who has been emasculated. Best wishes eloy El [FECHA], "[NOMBRE]"<[DIRECCION]> escribio: Hi Stuart, I don't know what capona means, and I don't have the music handy, but I enjoyed this. I like your tempo. Best, Jocelyn From: Stuart Walsh [1]<[1][7]s.wa...@ntlworld.com> Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 20:14:31 + To: Vihuelalist [2]<[2][8]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> Subject: [VIHUELA] Capona? Timo Peedu has edited some Carbonchi pieces (to be found on his ning early guitar page). Included are two short and simple but unusual pieces with the title 'Capona'. There are a couple of versions of a very fancy Capona by Kapsberger (including one by Rob Mackillop). Any ideas what Capona means? Here is a go at the sim
[VIHUELA] Re: Capona?
I must say that this music is far slinkier than I'm used to hearing in 17th century music! I wonder what they got up to when they danced to it (and which was condemned at the time)? I'd guess it would seem very tame to compared to some of the overtly sexual dance of today. Exactly! I think this present day obsession with the idea that the dances were obscene and that being banned gives them some sort of instrinsic merit is a bit wide of the mark. Monica, who is obsessed with obscenity and early dance!? When I read, a while ago, that the early 'sarabanda' had been banned for lewdness in some places, I thought that that was just extraordinary. And now the capona too, good grief! I think it would be fascinating to know what they were on about. (I've got a book tucked away somewhere which says the same thing about the 19th century waltz) Stuart (I just went to see ENO's production of Castor and Pollux in which the artists spent a lot of taking their knickers off - unthinkable in Rameau's time. They were actually quite prudish. But I can see now why Guerau in his Poema Harmonica says something to the effect that studying his complicated and difficult variations on the dance pieces will keep you out of trouble. Well he actaully says "Use it to banish idleness and raise your heart to God". But that's the sort of thing that they say in these prefaces. They were very high minded. How many players on this list raise their hearts to God when playing? Monica -- R On Dec 8, 2011, at 5:58 PM, Eloy Cruz wrote: Dear Stuart, list This is from Cotarelo y Mori's "Coleccion": p. CCXXXVII. Capona (La) (Baile). Dicc. de Autoridades: ^3Son o baile a modo de la Mariona; pero mas rapido y bullicioso, con el cual y a cuyo tanido se cantan varias coplillas^2. A very bad English translation could be: Music and dance in the way of a Mariona, but faster and noisier; to which music they use to sing several small coplas. In a 17th cent. Spanish play, one of the characters says he won't dance to that music, because it is "of very bad circumstances", because the word capon is used to refer to a man who has been emasculated. Best wishes eloy El [FECHA], "[NOMBRE]" <[DIRECCION]> escribio: Hi Stuart, I don't know what capona means, and I don't have the music handy, but I enjoyed this. I like your tempo. Best, Jocelyn From: Stuart Walsh [1]<[1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com> Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 20:14:31 + To: Vihuelalist [2]<[2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> Subject: [VIHUELA] Capona? Timo Peedu has edited some Carbonchi pieces (to be found on his ning early guitar page). Included are two short and simple but unusual pieces with the title 'Capona'. There are a couple of versions of a very fancy Capona by Kapsberger (including one by Rob Mackillop). Any ideas what Capona means? Here is a go at the simple ones by Carbonchi. If I have misunderstood the timing or the way it should be played, I'd like to know (preferably in a polite way!) [3][3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at [4][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [5]mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 2. [6]mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. [7]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I 4. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:[1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com 2. mailto:[2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 5. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 6. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 7. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Capona Espagnola (Gallot)
About the Capona, Monica says: "Apparently it is a characteristic of the Capona that it divides into two irregular phrases, one of 5 beats and the other of 7. 5 crotchets followed by 7 crotchets or 3 minims plus a crotchet I.e. a sort of hemiola." Now that's really something! ...Anyway, Rocky put up an edition of a Capona Espagnola from the Gallot guitar MS. Monica say that "Gallot or his servant Monnier isn't always entirely accurate. He has barred it wrongly which he quite often does with pieces which start with an anacrucis". The Caponas in Carbonchi start on the second beat of the bar too and no doubt, this should too. I had a go at playing it. I found very challenging trying to play and yet it doesn't sound much at all, listening to it. I don't think I'm phrasing it correctly - but I don't think I could conceive (get my head around) a 5 beat phrase followed by a 7 beat one. Has anyone else had a go? The notes are easy, the notation is straightforward but it's just seems very odd. I'd be really interested to hear other peoples' reactions to it. And I'd recommend anyone to have a go even at just the last four bars - just single notes - and maybe phrase it 5 beats, the seven beats. Well here's a go at it. I was really disappointed because I expected it to sound much more rhythmically surprising. It felt like it should be when I was playing it (many, many times with a metronome in an ear piece!) http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/CaponaGallot.mp3 Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Capona?
On 08/12/2011 23:58, Eloy Cruz wrote:
Dear Stuart, list
This is from Cotarelo y Mori's "Colección":
p. CCXXXVII. Capona (La) (Baile). Dicc. de Autoridades: ³Son ó baile a modo
de la Mariona; pero más rápido y bullicioso, con el cual y á cuyo tañido se
cantan varias coplillas².
A very bad English translation could be:
Music and dance in the way of a Mariona, but faster and noisier; to which
music they use to sing several small coplas.
In a 17th cent. Spanish play, one of the characters says he won't dance to
that music, because it is "of very bad circumstances", because the word
capon is used to refer to a man who has been emasculated.
Best wishes
eloy
How interesting. Any idea what:
"of very bad circumstances"
might mean? Or is it just meant to be suggestive of what 'decent' people
would not do. Or something to do with eunuchs?
Stuart
El [FECHA], "[NOMBRE]"<[DIRECCION]> escribió:
Hi Stuart,
I don't know what capona means, and I don't have the music handy, but I
enjoyed this. I like your tempo.
Best,
Jocelyn
From: Stuart Walsh<[1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 20:14:31 +
To: Vihuelalist<[2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Subject: [VIHUELA] Capona?
Timo Peedu has edited some Carbonchi pieces (to be found on his ning
early guitar page). Included are two short and simple but unusual
pieces
with the title 'Capona'.
There are a couple of versions of a very fancy Capona by Kapsberger
(including one by Rob Mackillop).
Any ideas what Capona means?
Here is a go at the simple ones by Carbonchi. If I have misunderstood
the timing or the way it should be played, I'd like to know (preferably
in a polite way!)
[3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I
Stuart
To get on or off this list see list information at
[4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com
2. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I
4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Capona?
On 09/12/2011 06:23, Rockford Mjos wrote: I have added the score "Capona Espagnola" from the De Gallot Ms to my Ning page. (I tried to also upload one by Valdambrini, but Ning seems to be stubborn tonight.) Very interesting - and in the same key as the two in Carbonchi. Rocky, do you think the last beat of bar 9 should be open A (fifth course) rather than D on the fourth? And the g#s in bar 23. Are they just a passing variation; a sort of E7 chord rather than G. But could they be an error? I think the piece loses its hypnotic character somewhat. These pieces are playing around with 2/4 and 3/4 but is there an underlying 'vamp' (as it were)? They are notated in 3, but I don't think I can play them in 3. It's fun just playing the final four bars of the "Capona Espagnola" - presumably as 2/4. It's interesting too, that these aren't strummed; one might have thought that something a bit licentious would go towards strumming rather than 'lute style' I must say that this music is far slinkier than I'm used to hearing in 17th century music! I wonder what they got up to when they danced to it (and which was condemned at the time)? I'd guess it would seem very tame to compared to some of the overtly sexual dance of today. But I can see now why Guerau in his Poema Harmonica says something to the effect that studying his complicated and difficult variations on the dance pieces will keep you out of trouble. Stuart -- R On Dec 8, 2011, at 5:58 PM, Eloy Cruz wrote: Dear Stuart, list This is from Cotarelo y Mori's "Coleccion": p. CCXXXVII. Capona (La) (Baile). Dicc. de Autoridades: ^3Son o baile a modo de la Mariona; pero mas rapido y bullicioso, con el cual y a cuyo tanido se cantan varias coplillas^2. A very bad English translation could be: Music and dance in the way of a Mariona, but faster and noisier; to which music they use to sing several small coplas. In a 17th cent. Spanish play, one of the characters says he won't dance to that music, because it is "of very bad circumstances", because the word capon is used to refer to a man who has been emasculated. Best wishes eloy El [FECHA], "[NOMBRE]" <[DIRECCION]> escribio: Hi Stuart, I don't know what capona means, and I don't have the music handy, but I enjoyed this. I like your tempo. Best, Jocelyn From: Stuart Walsh [1]<[1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com> Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 20:14:31 + To: Vihuelalist [2]<[2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> Subject: [VIHUELA] Capona? Timo Peedu has edited some Carbonchi pieces (to be found on his ning early guitar page). Included are two short and simple but unusual pieces with the title 'Capona'. There are a couple of versions of a very fancy Capona by Kapsberger (including one by Rob Mackillop). Any ideas what Capona means? Here is a go at the simple ones by Carbonchi. If I have misunderstood the timing or the way it should be played, I'd like to know (preferably in a polite way!) [3][3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at [4][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [5]mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 2. [6]mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. [7]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I 4. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:[1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com 2. mailto:[2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 5. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 6. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 7. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Capona?
Timo Peedu has edited some Carbonchi pieces (to be found on his ning early guitar page). Included are two short and simple but unusual pieces with the title 'Capona'. There are a couple of versions of a very fancy Capona by Kapsberger (including one by Rob Mackillop). Any ideas what Capona means? Here is a go at the simple ones by Carbonchi. If I have misunderstood the timing or the way it should be played, I'd like to know (preferably in a polite way!) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Gloomy day, nice sunset, 17th century minimalism, Playford tune
The piece 'Bobel' is in Princess Anne's 'lute' book and I think it was Jocelyn Nelson who identified it as the tune Christchurch Bells, familiar from Playford. Monica transcribed and edited the Playford tunes in Princess Anne's book and they are downloadable from her ning early guitar site. http://earlyguitar.ning.com/profile/MonicaHall This tune is -or exists also as - a round. So might the guitar version have been played as a round? A guitar part with lots of little ornaments and strums is a lot different from a single line. Here's a shot at it. It sounds a bit ragged - but that's probably just me. Nice sunset, though. The rest of the countryside looked dull and dank. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tom6ZYbhqSc Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] A birch tree stands in the field
This is one of Roman Turovsky's simple lute arrangements of Ukrainian melodies. http://www.torban.org/sarmatoruthenicae/images/344.pdf But I think it works quite well with a tiny bit of ligado, battuto and campanella on a Baroque guitar. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d77EP5-syKU Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] strumming along with Gervaise
How would a strummer strum chords to these tunes composed (arranged?) by Gervaise in the 1550s? http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Gervaise/ They are strong melodies (Poulenc arranged some Gervaise dances for piano - but not these particular tunes). Maybe you just strum a chord according to the bass line. It's easy enough to work out what each chord would be. But playing at speed it would be formidably difficult to actually play them unless you were a Freddy Green-type professional. These Gervaise arrangements are in four parts and, as it stands, the bass is very easy to play as a single note. But really not so easy at all when the chords are changing very quickly. But it's often said that strummers strummed in these, and even earlier, times. And, if so, surely they would have strummed to accompany tunes like this. Would they have strummed a chord for each note as dictated by the rules of four part harmony? Or something simpler - but potentially more rhythmic? Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Podoljanochka - on guitar
Here is one of Roman's recent lute arrangements of Ukrainian folk melodies: http://www.torban.org/balli/ which, I think, sounds well on a Baroque guitar: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=022QUw5Xz7Y Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] vihuela list
test To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones
Another thing that bothers me in general is the way in which the sound in many recordings seems to be amplified. Even turning the volume down doesn't in any way soften the music - it just makes it sound indistinct and further away. The Foscarini CD e.g. sounded like heavy metal whereas in a live performance even with the odd line up it wouldn't sound like that. Surely it is possible to capture the sound of a live performance more faithfully. I could go on for ever Who couldn't?...are there entry qualifications? - but most of these matters are too complex to discuss intelligently in a hurry and on a list like this. Phooey! And this message when I received it was a complete mess. I have tried to tidy it up. I do think at least we should agree whether we will reply at the end or the beginning and everyone do the same things. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones
to more related to modern robust
flamenco play than the precise technique used by earlier players (at
least based on what they wrote). Chris's description of his strum is,
of course, similar to the 'repicco' described by Corbetta in his 1671
collection (NB bourdon on 4th course!). Translation of extract
'Note that the four tied beats strike down the first note with the
middle finger then with the index and then the same as upstroke' (I
hope this is accurate if not a a literal translation). That an
experienced player Stuart thought it a new (to him) style of strumming
may perhaps illustrate how many of us (me included!) fail to adhere
always to the earlier instructions.
Incidentally, I think to call it a trill (or more correctly 'trillo')
as Chris was told, is perhaps wrong: my understanding of this term is
that it is a strum ornament executed by the index alone not by two
fingers or more.
Yrs in exectation of a response or two
Martyn
--- On Sat, 16/4/11, Chris Despopoulos
wrote:
From: Chris Despopoulos
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: With/Without Bordones
To: "Stuart Walsh"
Cc: "Vihuelalist"
Date: Saturday, 16 April, 2011, 20:19
Hi Stuart... Thanks
The effect on that A (er G) chord was taught to me in a class of
rasgueados for baroque guitar... They called it a trill.
Basically,
it's alternating up/down strokes between two fingers. If U is up
and D
is down, then the gesture is:
Da, Di, Ua, Ui -- repeated for the duration of the note. Yes, I
use
the ring finger. But it turns out I use the ring finger for nearly
every rasgueado. I just have to shrug off any chastisement for
anachronism there, because I don't know that I could manage it any
other way.
__
From: Stuart Walsh <[1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
To: Chris Despopoulos <[2]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com>
Cc: Vihuelalist <[3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Sat, April 16, 2011 1:55:20 PM
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] With/Without Bordones
On 16/04/2011 16:56, Chris Despopoulos wrote:
>I've recorded a few pieces now with a bordon on the D course --
Suite
>by Roncalli, Paracumbe, and Folias by Sanz. These are compared
to
>similar recordings I did without the bordon. Oddly enough, the
earth
>did not crack open and swallow my guitar, flaming toads did not
fall
>from the sky, and gravity as we know it still holds sway.
>I'm inclined to view the results along the lines of speaking a
language
>with an accent... Perhaps the emPHAsis is placed on differENT
>syllABles, but the import is generally the same, and the
ability
to
>move the listener rests entirely with the speaker regardless of
his or
>her accent. I've found that the bordon reveals some aspects of
a
piece
>I may not have noticed otherwise, but nothing
earth-shattering. I
may
>try to record a few other pieces with a bordon just to be
thorough.
>(And I suppose I should try this exercise with bordones on two
>courses...) For my own pleasure I want to get back to fully
re-entrant
>tuning, but that's just a personal and possibly temporal
preference.
>If you're interested, you can hear the results at:
>[1][1][4]http://cudspan.net/baroque/
>Cheerscud
>
>--
Chris
You certainly play with a lot of fire! I think the bordon on the D
course does make quite a difference - a darker sound maybe, or more
depth. And, of course you now have extra notes below the third
course.
How do you get that effect on the letter A (chord of G) in the
first
bar
of the Roncalli Prelude?
Stuart.
> References
>
>1. [2][5]http://cudspan.net/baroque/
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> [3][6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
--
References
1. [7]http://cudspan.net/baroque/
2. [8]http://cudspan.net/baroque/
3. [9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
2.
http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
3.
http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
4. http://cudspan.net/baroque/
5. http://cudspan.net/baroque/
6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
7. http://cudspan.net/baroque/
8. http://cudspan.net/baroque/
9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: With/Without Bordones
On 16/04/2011 16:56, Chris Despopoulos wrote: I've recorded a few pieces now with a bordon on the D course -- Suite by Roncalli, Paracumbe, and Folias by Sanz. These are compared to similar recordings I did without the bordon. Oddly enough, the earth did not crack open and swallow my guitar, flaming toads did not fall from the sky, and gravity as we know it still holds sway. I'm inclined to view the results along the lines of speaking a language with an accent... Perhaps the emPHAsis is placed on differENT syllABles, but the import is generally the same, and the ability to move the listener rests entirely with the speaker regardless of his or her accent. I've found that the bordon reveals some aspects of a piece I may not have noticed otherwise, but nothing earth-shattering. I may try to record a few other pieces with a bordon just to be thorough. (And I suppose I should try this exercise with bordones on two courses...) For my own pleasure I want to get back to fully re-entrant tuning, but that's just a personal and possibly temporal preference. If you're interested, you can hear the results at: [1]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ Cheerscud -- Chris You certainly play with a lot of fire! I think the bordon on the D course does make quite a difference - a darker sound maybe, or more depth. And, of course you now have extra notes below the third course. How do you get that effect on the letter A (chord of G) in the first bar of the Roncalli Prelude? Stuart. References 1. http://cudspan.net/baroque/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Granata
It's probably old news but I've just noticed that the B minor Alemanda on p.10 of Granata's "Novi Capricci" (guitar part alongside parts for 'violin e viola'= figured bass) is also on p.43 but this time in a fancier version and here, unquestionably, a solo. Maybe some other pieces at the beginning of the book (with violin and figured bass) also have fancier versions. The solos starting with the Toccata on p.30 seem a lot more difficult than the guitar pieces/guitar parts with the violin and bass. The late James Tyler made a nice recording of the Toccata and an Alemanda decades ago. I find the solos from p.30 onwards really challenging (apart from a couple of exceptions). But they do look like fully contrived guitar pieces whereas the earlier, simpler ones with guitar and bass don't. Anyway, if Granata has given us a crafted B minor solo on p.43, maybe the simpler version on p.10 really is meant to be played in concert, not a solo? Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Granata - chitarra atiorbata
On 15/04/2011 16:09, Lex Eisenhardt wrote: Granata could even have thought of the chitarra atiorbata for the continuo. This instrument is on currently on ebay - possibly designed by Z. Taylor. A snip at -L-450? [1]http://tinyurl.com/642tybt -- References 1. http://tinyurl.com/642tybt To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Granata
Eduard Agullo very kindly sent me some of his continuo realisations of these Granata pieces with figured bass. I hope he doesn't mind if I use one as the basis of a simple lute part for one of the Alemandas. [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJRV33Wi96Y The piece sounds very different in this context as compared to its solo version. Better, I think than the solo. Eduard made a slight change to make the bass part and the guitar part fit with each other. Other pieces would take a bit more work. But I'm sure players of the time could have sorted out a few things if they wanted to play these pieces with guitar and continuo. (Or indeed, guitar, violin and continuo). Granata's writing is peppered with T signs for ornaments and slurs. I hadn't realised how slurs can sound a bit dragging! I've always been respectful of tablatures but in this case I don't feel any compunction at all to re-finger passages, miss bits out...like too many slurs! etc. Monica says that these pieces may be by Corbetta. But these 'Granata' pieces seem (potentially, anyway) really tuneful and pleasant (Just joking..) Eduard tells me that Massimo Ponardi has recorded a CD with Baroque guitar and 'tiorba'. Stuart -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJRV33Wi96Y To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Granata
On 14/04/2011 22:28, michael.f...@notesinc.com wrote: Dear List, I have recently finished editing all the known chamber music for Baroque guitar and strings, including all these "Capricci" by Granata. I noted the light figured bass markings here and in Granata's Sonata (1659) for the same instrumentation (in which the violin is *not* a mere doubling). However, I decided not to include any continuo realizations, because the guitar already provides a nice sketch of the harmonies. (This decision was reached partly in conference with Monica.) That said, please let me point out three "Simphonies" by Henry Grenerin for two violins, guitar, and "basse" with figures, where the figures are specified to be for a theorbo. We should probably consider the theorbo/chitarrone to be a good continuo instrument for Granata's music as well. Mike Mike I've been looking through more of Granata's "Novi Capricci" (1674). For a start I feel a little unsettled by some of the tablature. Why are g#s (you'd think, first string fourth fret) sometimes put on the second course at the ninth fret? There are other awkward moments too where you might expect a guitarist to smooth things out... and just be a it more guitaristic.. And the guitar doesn't always merely double the top string part. Most strikingly, there are places where the guitar harmony simply doesn't match the bass part. For example, the D minor Giga (p.18). In bars 6,7 and 10 the guitar is playing a C chord in inversion and the bass line seems to indicate F major. And in the B minor Alemanda, there is a point where the guitar plays an alfebeto B minor and the bass line (on a strong beat, not a passing note) has the note G. As far as I can see, you fairly often have to make small adjustments to get the parts to fit. And there would be far fewer issues if the guitar was fully re-entrant. If the guitarist read the music, not the notation, there would be no issues! It does look rather like like the guitar part is independent. Stuart I can't help thinking there is something odd going on. [1]mich...@lgv-pub.com -- References 1. mailto:michael.f...@notesinc.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: a little Granata experiment
On 11/04/2011 09:01, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
Regarding the held notes at the conclusion of each half, I think this
suggests that these pieces were in fact conceived primarily for
performance with the outer bowed instruments mentioned in the title -
so that there would be no need to perpetuate the sound over a full (or
large part of) long bar by such devices.
Although bowed instruments seem to be indicated by the title page
("violino e viola"), the bass line is lightly figured. Maybe the violist
would have added some harmonies. Many of the allemandas have these long
empty bars at the end of each half. Even bowed, or on another sustaining
instrument, they could sound as is musical activity has temporarily
ceased! So plucked instrument strums and/or twiddles (as you suggest
Falconieri did) is maybe what is in order.
It's interesting that Granata does some 'octave-hopping' in the guitar
part - but nothing to do with the tuning. For example, in the E minor
Corrente (p.22), bar 4-5. The passage begins with the note b (open
string, second course). In the violin part the the note b goes down to g
and then up a scale, g,a,b,c#, d, e. But the guitar part begins on b,
then jumps up an octave for the g, a, and b then jumps back down to c#,
d and e. In the final two bars of the first section the violin part goes
from a high g (first course, third fret of guitar) down to b, a and g
but the guitar part goes from the high g down to b and back up an octave
for the a and g.
Probably this is to make the instrument project a bit more - especially
if there is a violin playing. But maybe it also shows an attitude of
mind about melodic lines on the Baroque guitar. (As Monica has often
insisted upon!)
Stuart
In short, I suggest they were
indeed expected to be played as a trio for the best effect.
Martyn
On 4/7/2011 3:36 PM, "Stuart Walsh"<[1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>Granata's Novi Capricci Armonici Musicali in vari toni per la chitarra
>spagnola, violino and viola concertati et altra sonate per chitarra
sola
>1674 has pieces for solo guitar and, at the beginning, 12 pieces with
a
>guitar part on the left hand side and then in staff notation (treble
and
>lightly figured bass) on the right.
>
>This publication has been discussed before but , as usual, I can't
>remember the details and don't want to plumb the archives. Gary Boyes
>
>[2]http://www.library.appstate.edu/music/guitar/1674granata.html
>
>says that these pieces are for violin, guitar and continuo. I think
last
>time the work was discussed somebody said that it might be like some
>lute trios where there is a lot of doubling (e.g. Hinterleithner and
>later in the 18th century, Martino and others).
>
>But I think it was Monica who thought that these pieces are(or might
be)
>for violin and continuo, and alternatively playable as guitar solos.
>Anyway, I always thought it would be interesting to hear the guitar
part
>with the bass line. So I've had a shot at one of the pieces, the
>Alemanda in E minor on page 20 which is quite attractive as a solo.
I'm
>not sure how fast this piece is to go and I'm taking it fairly slowly.
>That leaves bar 8, the concluding bar of the first section, with one
>chord for the duration of the whole bar (or almost). That's a lot of
>space/time with nothing happening. Often in Allemandas, there are some
>arpeggio twiddles for the first two beats and then a strummed chord.
>(Most, but not all, of the later solo alemandas in this publication
are
>treated in this way.)
>
>[3]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Granata.mp3
>
>So this is for guitar and a lute playing the bass line. I didn't try
and
>do continuo because I don't know enough about it and, anyway, the
guitar
>is covering the main harmony. The bass does double the guitar quite a
>bit (but there is often a lot of doubling in the Baroque guitar duets
>I've seen). I think it's quite a strange sound. The second bar of the
>second section sounds weird. The clash in the repeat of the second
>section, towards the end is just my mistake.
>
>Stuart
>
>
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>[4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
2. http://www.library.appstate.edu/music/guitar/1674granata.html
3. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Granata.mp3
4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] a little Granata experiment
Granata's Novi Capricci Armonici Musicali in vari toni per la chitarra spagnola, violino and viola concertati et altra sonate per chitarra sola 1674 has pieces for solo guitar and, at the beginning, 12 pieces with a guitar part on the left hand side and then in staff notation (treble and lightly figured bass) on the right. This publication has been discussed before but , as usual, I can't remember the details and don't want to plumb the archives. Gary Boyes http://www.library.appstate.edu/music/guitar/1674granata.html says that these pieces are for violin, guitar and continuo. I think last time the work was discussed somebody said that it might be like some lute trios where there is a lot of doubling (e.g. Hinterleithner and later in the 18th century, Martino and others). But I think it was Monica who thought that these pieces are(or might be) for violin and continuo, and alternatively playable as guitar solos. Anyway, I always thought it would be interesting to hear the guitar part with the bass line. So I've had a shot at one of the pieces, the Alemanda in E minor on page 20 which is quite attractive as a solo. I'm not sure how fast this piece is to go and I'm taking it fairly slowly. That leaves bar 8, the concluding bar of the first section, with one chord for the duration of the whole bar (or almost). That's a lot of space/time with nothing happening. Often in Allemandas, there are some arpeggio twiddles for the first two beats and then a strummed chord. (Most, but not all, of the later solo alemandas in this publication are treated in this way.) http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Granata.mp3 So this is for guitar and a lute playing the bass line. I didn't try and do continuo because I don't know enough about it and, anyway, the guitar is covering the main harmony. The bass does double the guitar quite a bit (but there is often a lot of doubling in the Baroque guitar duets I've seen). I think it's quite a strange sound. The second bar of the second section sounds weird. The clash in the repeat of the second section, towards the end is just my mistake. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: a bit OT: George Rush Sonata for 'Guittar with an accompanyment'
On 06/03/2011 23:21, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: Hi Stuart, I enjoyed this (what I could; my internet's a little slow tonight); thanks for posting. Grove online has Rush as a "guitarist" and listed in the works section are several works for "gui" which I take to mean as an abbreviation for guitar. Also "Elegant Extracts for Guitar." Ronald R. Kidd wrote the article. Did they mistake the guittar for the guitar? (Pretty understandable, I would say). Perhaps Rush himself spelled it as "guitar"? Ages ago I put up some title pages of 'English guitar' publications: http://www.tuningsinthirds.com/EG/ Rush used the spelling 'guittar' but others used 'guitar'. 'Cetra', 'citra', 'chitarra' (and others too , were also used). Today, people often use the spelling 'guittar' to refer to the pear-shaped, wire-strung, chordally-tuned 18th century cittern. It's useful today , but doesn't in any way represent general practice in the 18th century. Stuart I hadn't known of Rush before this. And thanks also for acquainting me with this meaning of "folly." : ) It's a beautiful scene. Best, Jocelyn To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] a bit OT: George Rush Sonata for 'Guittar with an accompanyment'
The cittern list seems to have withered... Here's a little sonata for the wire-strung guitar/guittar from c.1765. It's for the guittar but to be accompanied by another guittar or violin. Guittars and violins don't have a lot in common but guittar pieces (usually sonatas) with an accompaniment for either guittar or violin were quite common in Britain (and France). George Rush wrote some operas and other music as well as music for the guittar. His Three Sonatas is c.1765. This is the second: Largo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVUrD8ojxf4 Allegro http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENss39j-TW8 Presto http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PL19jxZCE0g The building is known as Cowper's Alcove, an 18th century folly where the poet William Cowper and his wife would visit. A wind farm was probably not part of the scenic view in those days. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Renaissance Guitar Podcast
On 04/03/2011 17:25, Monica Hall wrote:
In the absence of direct evidence (ie music notated in earlier
sources)
perhaps, members of the jury, we need to reflect on circumstantial
evidence; for example 15th century iconography showing right
arms/hands
held in a more strumming than a plucking position. ie right hand
not resting on the belly but held above the instrument - maybe even
higher up towards the neck/body join.
But we also need to consider whether they are actually playing with a
plectrum. And Stuart seems to assume that as far as the lute is
concerned chords were always played with the thumb and fingers with a
separate finger for each note. How many sources actually say that
this is so? As far as I am aware the ring finger was not much used
so how do you play 4, 5 and 6 part chords?
Brushing up with the thumb or down with the i or i and m (or both!). I'm
not quite sure what Martin is doing on the first full chord of his
latest 'new piece of the month' but it must be a combination of these.
http://www.luteshop.co.uk/month/1103.mp3
Now we could be on the delightful topic of what counts as a strum...
This dignified Prelude that Martin plays is not a strumfest.
Stuart
Monica
regards
Martyn
--- On Fri, 4/3/11, Stuart Walsh wrote:
From: Stuart Walsh
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Renaissance Guitar Podcast
To: "Martyn Hodgson"
Cc: "JocelynNelson" , "Vihuelalist"
Date: Friday, 4 March, 2011, 10:56
On 04/03/2011 09:14, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
> Dear Stuart,
>
> I'm sorry to have to write like this, but did you not follow the
> postings I made when this was discussed earlier (months ago)? - I
> pointed out some specific strum signs in mid 16th century 4
course
> books. Two examples I recall giving are La Seraphine from
Morlaye's 4th
> book of 1552 and a Paduanne on page 16..
>
> I think I understand that your personal preference is to pluck
all this
> stuff but I wouldn't have thought this should outweigh
considerations
> of the actaul evidence. It really is pointless responding to
these
> things only to find that months later it seems to have not been
read.
Martyn,
I think we all suffer from this! Many - well, several - times I've
noticed that later messages in a thread where I have contributed have
clearly missed what seemed to me a key point which I had carefully
explained (or so I thought). It's the nature of the medium. And
it's in
the nature of the medium for threads to go off in different
directions.
I was interested to discuss/chat about the practice of strumming chord
sequences well before the 1550s (as Jocelyn seemed to be suggesting) -
but it's not happening.
I'm surprised that I'd completely forgotten that you had given
definite
evidence for strumming in the four-course repertoire. There is a news
item today that scientists can now grow brain cells - so I'm hoping to
get hold of a few more.
These are discussion lists, chat lists, lots of details, opinions..
and
banter (which we Brits can't seem to master at all) and open to all,
experts and all.
(I've played the four-course guitar in the past and I did try
strumming
in places and have nothing against it)
Stuart
> Clearly, in these early days of strumming notation we're not
going to
> find the sophisticated notation developed some 50 years later. In
short
> the evidence is that strumming was used at the time, was used
later and
> thus may have been more common than you might wish.
>
> It's all rather reminiscent of earlier exchanges about Guerau's
work of
> 1694 for 5 course guitar: I see numerous comments to the effect
that
> Guerau never indicated strumming in this collection (even
Jeffreys in
> his comments to accompany the facsimile edition). But, of course,
he
> does - one just needs to look hard enough (for those who missed
my
> earlier see for example page 53 penultimate system bars 1 to 4)
> regards
>
> Martyn
>
>
> --- On Thu, 3/3/11, Stuart Walsh<[1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
> From: Stuart Walsh<[2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Renaissance Guitar Podcast
> To: "Nelson, Jocelyn"<[3]nels...@ecu.edu>
> Cc: "Vihuelalist"<[4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Date: Thursday, 3 March, 2011, 18:50
>
> On 02/03/2011 19:06, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote:
> > Dear Early Guitar List,
> >
> > If you click the link below, you^1re on your way to my 16
minute
> podcast,
> > which includes commentary and music from my recent CD, Ma
Guiterre
[VIHUELA] Re: Renaissance Guitar Podcast
On 04/03/2011 09:14, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
Dear Stuart,
I'm sorry to have to write like this, but did you not follow the
postings I made when this was discussed earlier (months ago)? - I
pointed out some specific strum signs in mid 16th century 4 course
books. Two examples I recall giving are La Seraphine from Morlaye's 4th
book of 1552 and a Paduanne on page 16..
I think I understand that your personal preference is to pluck all this
stuff but I wouldn't have thought this should outweigh considerations
of the actaul evidence. It really is pointless responding to these
things only to find that months later it seems to have not been read.
Martyn,
I think we all suffer from this! Many - well, several - times I've
noticed that later messages in a thread where I have contributed have
clearly missed what seemed to me a key point which I had carefully
explained (or so I thought). It's the nature of the medium. And it's in
the nature of the medium for threads to go off in different directions.
I was interested to discuss/chat about the practice of strumming chord
sequences well before the 1550s (as Jocelyn seemed to be suggesting) -
but it's not happening.
I'm surprised that I'd completely forgotten that you had given definite
evidence for strumming in the four-course repertoire. There is a news
item today that scientists can now grow brain cells - so I'm hoping to
get hold of a few more.
These are discussion lists, chat lists, lots of details, opinions.. and
banter (which we Brits can't seem to master at all) and open to all,
experts and all.
(I've played the four-course guitar in the past and I did try strumming
in places and have nothing against it)
Stuart
Clearly, in these early days of strumming notation we're not going to
find the sophisticated notation developed some 50 years later. In short
the evidence is that strumming was used at the time, was used later and
thus may have been more common than you might wish.
It's all rather reminiscent of earlier exchanges about Guerau's work of
1694 for 5 course guitar: I see numerous comments to the effect that
Guerau never indicated strumming in this collection (even Jeffreys in
his comments to accompany the facsimile edition). But, of course, he
does - one just needs to look hard enough (for those who missed my
earlier see for example page 53 penultimate system bars 1 to 4)
regards
Martyn
--- On Thu, 3/3/11, Stuart Walsh wrote:
From: Stuart Walsh
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Renaissance Guitar Podcast
To: "Nelson, Jocelyn"
Cc: "Vihuelalist"
Date: Thursday, 3 March, 2011, 18:50
On 02/03/2011 19:06, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote:
> Dear Early Guitar List,
>
> If you click the link below, you^1re on your way to my 16 minute
podcast,
> which includes commentary and music from my recent CD, Ma Guiterre je
te
> chante. A transcript of my commentary is available on the site, as
well.
> This was produced by ECU^1s School of Music. If you have time to
listen, I
> hope you enjoy it.
>
>
[1]http://www.ecu.edu/cs-admin/mktg/treasured_tunes_jocelyn_nelson_podc
ast.cfm
>
> Best wishes,
> Jocelyn
>
>
I enjoyed listening to your podcast (and I do have your CD) and I hope
you will do more podcasts.
There is something I'd be very interested to follow up in your role of
four-course guitar player _and_ teacher of music history! You say that
the four-course guitar was a popular strumming instrument and I think
you imply it was a popular strumming instrument before the guitar fad
of the 16th century. This is something that intrigues me and I have
raised it in the past.
Monica and Rob and others have suggested that strumming is very old -
older than the four-course repertoire as it appears in the mid 16th
century. But there is no explicit strumming at all in the four-course
repertoire. The Braye MS has some pieces with sequences of block chords
which could be strummed - but could be plucked too. There was a fairly
recent discussion on this list about some modern transcriptions by
Giesbert of the Phalese (1570s) four-course music and it emerged that
Giesbert's extensive strumming indications were all his own invention!
It seems very natural to us, to add strumming to some of the pieces in
the four-course repertoire. And within a few decades the guitar was,
for a while, exclusively a strummed instrument.
But I wonder how far before the 1550s could we reasonably expect
guitarists to have been strumming sequences of block chords - major and
minor I, IV, Vs etc.
Surely not a hundred years earlier?
[VIHUELA] Re: Renaissance Guitar Podcast
On 03/03/2011 20:18, Monica Hall wrote: This subject has indeed come up on a number of occasions in the past - we seem to keep going over and over the same topics. Well that's alright with me! What you mean is that there is no actual indication in the surviving 4-course repertoire that the 4-part chords should be strummed (but there is no indication that they should be played in any other way either). The reason for this is because these books were printed using the same font of moveable type which was used for lute music - and indeed cittern music - and either the printer simply didn't have the means of indicating that chords should be strummed or didn't think it necessary. The same applies to the manuscript - there wasn't any need to indicate that the chords should be strummed. Players would know what to do. But surely this is conjecture? Is there any actual evidence that four-course guitarists strummed? How do we know that publishers/scribes didn't need to indicate a technique that we don't actually know they had? It's not possible to argue that it is simply a limitation of printing techniques of the time without reasonable evidence that strumming was the norm. Aren't we in danger of reading later practices into earlier ones? But anyway, what I was asking was how long before the mid 16th century might guitarists have been strumming sequences of major and minor chords (e.g.. to accompany singing/dancing) A reasonable question to ask, I think? Morlaye's "Quatriesne Livre" includes pieces for the cittern printed in exactly the same way as the guitar music - but since the cittern is played with a plectrum the chords must be strummed. It is difficult to play many of these pieces at speed doing anything else. Playing with a plectrum and occasionally strumming a full chord isn't strumming in the sense I was going on about. I was wondering when strumming sequences of (major and minor) chords could have evolved. There is clear evidence that chords were strummed on the lute certainly by 1536 since there are pieces in Neusidler's "Ein Newgeordent kunstlich Lautenbuch" where chords are marked "mit durch streichen". 1536 isn't much earlier than the first guitar books. There are also pieces in Dalza which contain passages which are probably intended to be strummed - again - it would be difficult to play them in any other way. These were all included in a supplement in Lute News some time ago. Our own CG also points out that the lute (and the guitar) were originally played with a plecturm - so that originally any chords must have been strummed. But again I was talking about strumming sequences of major and minor chords not the strumming of a chord as part of a piece with melodic lines too. There was a fairly recent discussion on this list about some modern transcriptions by Giesbert of the Phalese (1570s) four-course music and it emerged that Giesbert's extensive strumming indications were all his own invention! As far as I can remember it was the way in which he had indicated this rather than the fact that he suggested that the chords were to be strummed. You sent a copy of the original Les Bouffons and I put up Giesbert' version: http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/PhaleseBouffons1.jpg Giesbert, it seems, simply assumed that four-course guitarists just must have strummed. Stuart But I wonder how far before the 1550s could we reasonably expect guitarists to have been strumming sequences of block chords - major and minor I, IV, Vs etc. Surely not a hundred years earlier? My amateur understanding of 15th century music is that most of it is in three parts (but some monophonic, and some in more than three parts). Chord sequences simply hadn't been invented then (?) and it would be quite anachronistic to try and impose them on the music(?). Improvisation was based around 'tenors' - lines of long notes with rules about acceptable and unacceptable intervals, not on chord sequences. This is such an oversimplification that it is difficult to comment on it without writing a dissertation. You just can't sum things up in this way. Some of the songs in the Cancionero de Palacio are based on chord sequences like the Romanesca You must make a distinction between sacred polyphony and more popular music ...etc. Well, just popular music - and strumming. I'm just curious to know when guitarists (or indeed other pluckers could have been simply strumming sequences of major and minor chords. Around 1500 the earliest music (published and in MS) for the lute include block chords (doubling notes according to the practicalities of a fingerboard in a particular tuning) but not chord sequences. The block chords mingle with melodic lines - which predominate. So(?): no likelihood of strumming there. But that is what Neusidler indicates. The pieces consist of block chords with the
[VIHUELA] Re: Renaissance Guitar Podcast
On 02/03/2011 19:06, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: Dear Early Guitar List, If you click the link below, you¹re on your way to my 16 minute podcast, which includes commentary and music from my recent CD, Ma Guiterre je te chante. A transcript of my commentary is available on the site, as well. This was produced by ECU¹s School of Music. If you have time to listen, I hope you enjoy it. http://www.ecu.edu/cs-admin/mktg/treasured_tunes_jocelyn_nelson_podcast.cfm Best wishes, Jocelyn I enjoyed listening to your podcast (and I do have your CD) and I hope you will do more podcasts. There is something I'd be very interested to follow up in your role of four-course guitar player _and_ teacher of music history! You say that the four-course guitar was a popular strumming instrument and I think you imply it was a popular strumming instrument before the guitar fad of the 16th century. This is something that intrigues me and I have raised it in the past. Monica and Rob and others have suggested that strumming is very old - older than the four-course repertoire as it appears in the mid 16th century. But there is no explicit strumming at all in the four-course repertoire. The Braye MS has some pieces with sequences of block chords which could be strummed - but could be plucked too. There was a fairly recent discussion on this list about some modern transcriptions by Giesbert of the Phalese (1570s) four-course music and it emerged that Giesbert's extensive strumming indications were all his own invention! It seems very natural to us, to add strumming to some of the pieces in the four-course repertoire. And within a few decades the guitar was, for a while, exclusively a strummed instrument. But I wonder how far before the 1550s could we reasonably expect guitarists to have been strumming sequences of block chords - major and minor I, IV, Vs etc. Surely not a hundred years earlier? My amateur understanding of 15th century music is that most of it is in three parts (but some monophonic, and some in more than three parts). Chord sequences simply hadn't been invented then (?) and it would be quite anachronistic to try and impose them on the music(?). Improvisation was based around 'tenors' - lines of long notes with rules about acceptable and unacceptable intervals, not on chord sequences. Around 1500 the earliest music (published and in MS) for the lute include block chords (doubling notes according to the practicalities of a fingerboard in a particular tuning) but not chord sequences. The block chords mingle with melodic lines - which predominate. So(?): no likelihood of strumming there. But this early lute music also includes 'grounds' - or(?) what later came to be called grounds. I wonder if these very early 'grounds' were a sort of half way house between the old 'tenors' - a single line, or were actually strummable - and actually strummed - chord sequence? Maybe you don't want to commit yourself to actual dates - but I wonder how far back do you think guitarists (and citternists and others) could have been strumming chord sequences? And if they were strumming something else: what dispositions of notes could they have been strumming? Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Paracumbe
On 21/02/2011 09:16, Chris Despopoulos wrote: Oops... It was late last night. [1]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ Look in the first playlist. I burried it in the middle. Note that it has warts. Also, I assume this is one of those New World dances that has some African influence... Courtly fun taking a cue from the slave trade and all that. Anyway, that's how I tried to read the music... Cheers cud Plenty of energy in that Chris! Sound great - and your guitar does too. Stuart __ From: Stuart Walsh [2] To: Chris Despopoulos [3] Cc: Vihuelalist [4] Sent: Mon, February 21, 2011 3:18:29 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Paracumbe On 20/02/2011 23:00, Chris Despopoulos wrote: >Hi all... >I posted a recording of the Paracumbe por la A from the "Libro de >Diferentes Cifras, M/811 (1705)". Just another re-entrant entry... >For what it's worth. >cud > >-- Where? Stuart > > To get on or off this list see list information at > [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- References 1. http://cudspan.net/baroque/ 2. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 3. mailto:despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com 4. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Paracumbe
On 20/02/2011 23:00, Chris Despopoulos wrote: Hi all... I posted a recording of the Paracumbe por la A from the "Libro de Diferentes Cifras, M/811 (1705)". Just another re-entrant entry... For what it's worth. cud -- Where? Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Arch-cittern
On 18/02/2011 11:52, Monica Hall wrote: Those of you who belong to the Lute Society will have received the latest number of Lute News. (Apologies to those of you who aren't members). This has a reproduction of the portrait of the actress Dorothy Jordan playing an arch-cittern - which looks a bit like an English guitar with additional diapasons. There is a commentary by Peter Holman. It's not an arch-cittern, which would typically have four pairs of wire strings at the top and descending single basses. As the article says, 'lutes' were around at the time and would mean indicate something tuned to a major chord. There were 'lutes', harp-lutes (not to be confused with later harp-lutes!), harp-lute-guitars, but now with single gut strings, not wire. Some instruments were tuned to an E flat major chord, but the music is written in C. The other question is about the music on p.7. I'm assuming that both parts are supposed to be played on a single instrument. If so the notes on the lower stave will occasionally overlap with those on the upper stave. Are we supposed to read the lower stave an octave lower? This looks exactly like a song arranged for TWO instruments - two English guitars (guittars) or equivalents And at the same pitch). The music for these later instruments with extra basses around 1800, or the music I've seen, is very simple and uses some of the simplest music originally arranged for the English guitar, now out of fashion. Stuart Hope I have made myself clear. Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] bourdons and no bourdons
My guitar is a very, very humble thing: it just doesn't make a great sound. Anyway, a while a go I had it tuned re-entrantly and made a simple recording of 3 easy pieces. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4gsy_pBqyc And I've now got the guitar with bourdons on fourth and fifth, and bourdon-out (as a lute) so the thumb hits the bass note first. And I've tired three simple pieces (that I had another go at, ages ago). These three pieces are from Selected Pieces from Jacob Kremberg edited by Rocky Mjos. (Good, sturdy tunes, Rocky!) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCiRDLwo-jI Bearing in mind this isn't a good instrument it still might be interesting how different the guitar sounds in these two contexts. Tuned to a low A, the guitar's lowest note is only a tone higher than the lowest note on a (six-course) lute in G. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Polyphony/Counterpoint
On 11/02/2011 20:46, wikla wrote: Dear Monica and the List, years ago I heard a story (perhaps urban (or rural?) legend?) about a native English speaker, who probably had only read the Bible -- the English version, of course, S/he was asked about learning "foreign" languages. S/he answered: "If English was good to Jesus, it is good and enough to me, too." Best, Arto Hyvä tarina Stuart (ansiosta google kääntää) On Fri, 11 Feb 2011 19:07:06 -, "Monica Hall" wrote: Yes! I got caught out by Google! Perhaps they don't always make a distinction between Dutch and Deutsch. Some of the terms did look like German to me but as my knowledge of Dutch is nil I took it at face value. Anyway - pace all the Dutch on this list, German is a major European language and German scholars are or have been in the forefront of musicology. The definitions and usage given seemed to me to be the same as we use in England. Monica - Original Message - From: "Stewart McCoy" To: "Vihuela List" Sent: Friday, February 11, 2011 6:50 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Polyphony/Counterpoint Dear Monica, You're probably thinking of Dutch and Flemish, which you could say are to some extent interchangeable. German is quite different. Best wishes, Stewart. -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of David van Ooijen Sent: 11 February 2011 14:55 To: Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Polyphony/Counterpoint On 11 February 2011 14:18, Monica Hall wrote: Interesting Dutch dictionary you have, that uses German for some of its definitions. ;-) Are they not to some extent interchangeable? Auch, that hurt! I suppose it was the inimitable Oscar Wilde who said something to the extent that Britain and the United States were two nations divided by a common language. You can be certain the division between the Dutch and the German, let alone the division between their languages, is incomparably bigger. Anyway, looking up the definition of a Dutch word in a German dictionary would certainly not be deemed socially acceptable, let alone proper scholarly behaviour. David - for the less observant persons on this list: this was a message with a ;-) -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: The stringing of the baroque guitar - again
On 08/02/2011 10:53, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
Hello Stuart,
Didn't you read me email quite through? - I specifically wrote about
Granata's Op 5! You'll see I take it as a good example of not
overbothering about a proper through bass line and thus an example of
melodic writing interspersed with chords rather than an example of two
part writing and this obliging us to provide a through bass on the
guitar.
And yes, the 'viola' is what many Italian sources of this period call a
bass violin (ie not a violoncello). Only later did it come to refer
exclusively to the tenor of the violin family.
rgds
M
Martyn
I did read your email! I was just (politely, of course) disagreeing with
your idea that:
You'll see I take it as a good example of not overbothering about a proper
through bass line and thus an example of
melodic writing interspersed with chords rather than an example of two-part
writing...
I suppose the line between "melodic writing interspersed with chords"
and (rudimentary) two part writing is a fine one. But just now looking
over th Granata pieces (the ones with violin/'viola') - although there
is the odd bar or two of melodic flow, I'd say 90% or so is basic
two-part (i.e.utterly typical guitar) writing.
Stuart
--- On Tue, 8/2/11, Stuart Walsh wrote:
From: Stuart Walsh
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: The stringing of the baroque guitar - again
To: "Martyn Hodgson"
Cc: "Vihuelalist", "Monica Hall"
Date: Tuesday, 8 February, 2011, 10:47
On 08/02/2011 10:09, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
Dear Stuart,
You write
'what do you mean by "elaborate treble dominated style"? Is it
this: a
predominantly melodic line interspersed with occasional chords?
Which
composers are you thinking of?'
I don't know what others are thinking of, but I mentioned that the
similarity between much (especially Italian) guitar writing and that
for unaccompanied violin by such as Schmelzer, Biber, Matteis had
struck me some years ago. Almost all guitar composer exhibit this in
pieces from time to time but some particular ones which I recall
being
examplars of the fashion were: Pellegrini(1650), Carbonchi(1640),
Pesori(1648), Coriandoli(1670), Valdambrini (1646/7), Bottazzari
(1663), Granata (various)... A good example of the practice in
operation and a interesting perspective on this style is also shed
by
those few pieces which actually do have an independent bass line as
well as guitar tablature (eg Granata Op 5 of 1674 for violin, bass
violin and guitar) - the guitar 'bass' is often skeletal at best and
often non-existant whereas the guitar does double most of the
independent upper melodic line.
Well, looking at Granata's Novi Capricci Armonic Musicali: the
first
few pieces have a guitar part on the left hand side (in tab) and a
score for violin and a ('viola'=bass?) part on the right. If it's
assumed that the guitar is playing along with the bass line (and
violin), nevertheless the guitar parts stand as pieces in their own
right with basic, sketchy, two-part writing (plus chords here and
there). There are passages which are just the melodic line but
still
most of the writing is rudimentary two-partbut like much writing
for guitar before or since.
Stuart
Of course if anyone really wanted to push the matter and insist that
a
proper through bass was always present, I suppose it might be
possible
to construct a bass line (of sorts) from the lowest notes (depending
on
stringing!) of the strummed chords..
Martyn
--- On Mon, 7/2/11, Stuart Walsh [1]<[1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
From: Stuart Walsh [2]<[2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: The stringing of the baroque guitar - again
To: "Monica Hall" [3]<[3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Cc: "Vihuelalist" [4]<[4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Monday, 7 February, 2011, 22:22
On 07/02/2011 17:21, Monica Hall wrote:
> This was my summary. It caused outrage in some quarters but I
still
stand by most of it.
>
> 1. Both the conventional and re-entrant tunings were
considered
appropriate for strummed music and choice of one or the other was a
matter of practical convenience.
> 2. The development of an elaborate treble dominated style
after
1640 led to a preference for re-entrant stringing.
Monica, what do you mean by "elaborate treble dominated style&q
[VIHUELA] Re: The stringing of the baroque guitar - again
On 08/02/2011 10:09, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
Dear Stuart,
You write
'what do you mean by "elaborate treble dominated style"? Is it this: a
predominantly melodic line interspersed with occasional chords? Which
composers are you thinking of?'
I don't know what others are thinking of, but I mentioned that the
similarity between much (especially Italian) guitar writing and that
for unaccompanied violin by such as Schmelzer, Biber, Matteis had
struck me some years ago. Almost all guitar composer exhibit this in
pieces from time to time but some particular ones which I recall being
examplars of the fashion were: Pellegrini(1650), Carbonchi(1640),
Pesori(1648), Coriandoli(1670), Valdambrini (1646/7), Bottazzari
(1663), Granata (various)... A good example of the practice in
operation and a interesting perspective on this style is also shed by
those few pieces which actually do have an independent bass line as
well as guitar tablature (eg Granata Op 5 of 1674 for violin, bass
violin and guitar) - the guitar 'bass' is often skeletal at best and
often non-existant whereas the guitar does double most of the
independent upper melodic line.
Well, looking at Granata's Novi Capricci Armonic Musicali: the first
few pieces have a guitar part on the left hand side (in tab) and a
score for violin and a ('viola'=bass?) part on the right. If it's
assumed that the guitar is playing along with the bass line (and
violin), nevertheless the guitar parts stand as pieces in their own
right with basic, sketchy, two-part writing (plus chords here and
there). There are passages which are just the melodic line but still
most of the writing is rudimentary two-partbut like much writing
for guitar before or since.
Stuart
Of course if anyone really wanted to push the matter and insist that a
proper through bass was always present, I suppose it might be possible
to construct a bass line (of sorts) from the lowest notes (depending on
stringing!) of the strummed chords..
Martyn
--- On Mon, 7/2/11, Stuart Walsh [1] wrote:
From: Stuart Walsh [2]
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: The stringing of the baroque guitar - again
To: "Monica Hall" [3]
Cc: "Vihuelalist" [4]
Date: Monday, 7 February, 2011, 22:22
On 07/02/2011 17:21, Monica Hall wrote:
> This was my summary. It caused outrage in some quarters but I still
stand by most of it.
>
> 1. Both the conventional and re-entrant tunings were considered
appropriate for strummed music and choice of one or the other was a
matter of practical convenience.
> 2. The development of an elaborate treble dominated style after
1640 led to a preference for re-entrant stringing.
Monica, what do you mean by "elaborate treble dominated style"? Is it
this: a predominantly melodic line interspersed with occasional chords?
Which composers are you thinking of?
The small amount of fancier music for the English guitar/guittar in the
18th century actually, literally looks like this - melodic lines -
single melodic lines and then occasional chords. But five-course guitar
music doesn't look like this at all. It looks like there's some kind of
bass and treble - it looks like, at least, two part music.
If the guitar is playing in this "elaborate treble dominated style" (as
I am interpreting you as claiming) it would have to be in a re-entrant
stringing, wouldn't it? It couldn't lead to a preference for it?
> 3. Perhaps as early as the 1650s Corbetta used bourdon on the
fourth course.
> 4. This became the preferred method of stringing in France,
England and the Low Countries and possibly also in Italy and Spain
during the last quarter of the seventeenth and first quarter of the
eighteenth centuries.
> 5. Developments in the way strings were made lead to regular use
of octaves on both fourth and fifth courses and eventually to a
6-course instrument.
But you say in 1. (above) - the 'conventional' tuning? So, by that, you
don't mean octaves on fourth and fifth? You mean AA and DD?
Stuart
> 6. Different methods of stringing were probably used for solo
music and realizing a bass line.
> 7. The evidence for octave stringing on the third course is
ambiguous. Such a method of stringing would only be suitable for
strummed music.
>
> Do I hear howls of rage in the distance?
>
> Monica
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
--
References
1. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com
2. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com
3. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
4. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: The stringing of the baroque guitar - again
On 07/02/2011 17:21, Monica Hall wrote: This was my summary. It caused outrage in some quarters but I still stand by most of it. 1. Both the conventional and re-entrant tunings were considered appropriate for strummed music and choice of one or the other was a matter of practical convenience. 2. The development of an elaborate treble dominated style after 1640 led to a preference for re-entrant stringing. Monica, what do you mean by "elaborate treble dominated style"? Is it this: a predominantly melodic line interspersed with occasional chords? Which composers are you thinking of? The small amount of fancier music for the English guitar/guittar in the 18th century actually, literally looks like this - melodic lines - single melodic lines and then occasional chords. But five-course guitar music doesn't look like this at all. It looks like there's some kind of bass and treble - it looks like, at least, two part music. If the guitar is playing in this "elaborate treble dominated style" (as I am interpreting you as claiming) it would have to be in a re-entrant stringing, wouldn't it? It couldn't lead to a preference for it? 3. Perhaps as early as the 1650s Corbetta used bourdon on the fourth course. 4. This became the preferred method of stringing in France, England and the Low Countries and possibly also in Italy and Spain during the last quarter of the seventeenth and first quarter of the eighteenth centuries. 5. Developments in the way strings were made lead to regular use of octaves on both fourth and fifth courses and eventually to a 6-course instrument. But you say in 1. (above) - the 'conventional' tuning? So, by that, you don't mean octaves on fourth and fifth? You mean AA and DD? Stuart 6. Different methods of stringing were probably used for solo music and realizing a bass line. 7. The evidence for octave stringing on the third course is ambiguous. Such a method of stringing would only be suitable for strummed music. Do I hear howls of rage in the distance? Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Ambiguity
On 07/02/2011 08:50, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Isn't Corrette's guitar disposed like other second half 18th century French guitars? ie basses on the thumb side like a lute. And the style is now much simpler and with arppegios and the like . M There's a late 18th century diagram of a guitar fingerboard with the the basses clearly not on the thumb side - and it's somewhere on the early guitar ning site. Stuart --- On Sun, 6/2/11, Monica Hall wrote: From: Monica Hall Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Ambiguity To: "Martyn Hodgson" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Date: Sunday, 6 February, 2011, 16:41 >Incidentally, earlier in this discussion I asked if there was any early >source which mentioned selective plucking of individual strings of an >octave pair - no response so far. No - the only source which mentions it is Corrette in -can't remember the exact date - 1760 or there abouts. I think the fact that Sanz doesn't mention this as an option is of some significance. His solution is to change the stringing. Incidentally when practicing Bartolotti's Ciaccona from Book 1 this morning I noted that there are three trills on the 4th course and one on the 5th but obviously because of the left-hand fingering there are fewer opportunities to fit in ornamentation. Monica > From: Stewart McCoy<[1]lu...@tiscali.co.uk> > Subject: [VIHUELA] Invertible counterpoint > To: "Vihuela List"<[2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Date: Sunday, 6 February, 2011, 12:47 > >Dear Martyn, >Thanks for your message. I agree with what you say about the effect of >reverse stringing, that it causes the upper octave to be more in >evidence than it would be with a more conventional (i.e. lute) >stringing. Yet why should a guitarist have wanted the high octave to >predominate? It must be that he wanted to hear the high octave as a >note >in its own right - a melody note - rather than merely enhance a bass >note on a duff gut string. >There are instances in lute music, where the upper octave of a course >is >used melodically. My favourite example is the opening of Haray tre >amours from Spinacino (Bk 2, 15v) which is notated as >--|- >--|--2-- >--|- >--2--4--5--4--5--4--2--4--|- >--|- >--|- >but sounds as >--|- >--|--2-- >--|- >--2--4--5--4--5--4--2--4--|- >--|--0-- >--|- >The high octave of the 5th course acts as a bass and a treble at the >same time. >Seventeenth-century guitarists wanted to exploit this possibility, but >unfortunately there were times when they wanted notes to be heard only >at one octave. Either they wanted just the low octave for a bass note, >and had to put up with the high octave interfering with the treble line >(as described recently by Monica), or they wanted just the high octave, >and had to tolerate unwanted bourdons creeping in below. >The various ways of stringing the baroque guitar are attempts to >overcome this basic dilemma. It seems that composers writing serious >pieces for the guitar wanted to exploit the melodic possibilities of >the >upper octave notes, but felt hampered by the bourdons. Reverse >stringing, having no bourdon at the fifth, or at the fourth and fifth >courses, are all attempts to purify the sound. As Monica says, quoting >Sanz, removing the bourdons will sweeten the sound. We cannot tell from >Sanz whether or not it was a new idea, but it certainly implies that at >least some guitarists were using bourdons in the 1670s. >Unfortunately we have little evidence to know what each guitarist did. >I >am grateful to Monica for writing: >"The only reference to reverse stringing is in Ruiz de Ribayaz in 1677 >.. the earliest mention of the "French" tuning is in 1670 ..." >Is that really all we have to go on? Is there nothing written about >stringing before 1670? If that is the case, no wonder there is so much >controversy. Without evidence, we are forced to rely on our intuition, >and to try to glean what we can from the music itself (hence my >question >about trills notated at the 4th and 5th courses, and my mention of high >notes on the 4th and 5th
[VIHUELA] Re: Invertible counterpoint
On 06/02/2011 09:26, Monica Hall wrote: Rafael Andia on his recording of de Visee's music has the bordon on the thumb side and this doesn't seem to have an appreciable effect on the music. How interesting! I thought there was a sort of 'universal assent' (of our times) on this - the 'French tuning' for De Visee. Was there a low octave on fourth and on the fifth? Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: YouTube - Marco Meloni Baroque Guitar Vol.5
On 21/01/2011 22:32, Roman Turovsky wrote: Well, on one hand there is a hierarchy of models to be emulated. And Bartlotti is a bit uneven. On the other hand Paulo had Iberian keyboard music in the back of his mind, certainly not JSB. RT It was the Allemande from a 'lute' suite in G minor (the one with the extremely long Praludium) that I kept thinking of. Stuart From: "Monica Hall" Paulo's music seemed to me as if it was written for an instrument with low basses (but I don't think I'm hearing Marco Meloni with bourdons on both?) and there were never any campanellas. Well - I am hearing the bourdons loud and clear and quite a lot of octave doubling! But Marco Meloni gives very impressive and convincing performances of Paulo's music. Yes - that is so - but it is more Bach than Bartolotti. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: YouTube - Marco Meloni Baroque Guitar Vol.5
On 21/01/2011 11:52, Roman Turovsky wrote: "Entrada do Mrqs.Pombal" by Paulo Galvão is finally on Youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOtqXai7HXE !!! RT A very assured performance and presentation. I tried to find out something about Marco Meloni but there are many people with that name, so I didn't (!). I tried to play some of Paulo's guitar pieces a few years ago. He writes some very attractive neo-Baroque (or pastiche?) music. This Entrada sounds like it's referencing Bach allemandes to me. He has also written some very Vivaldi-like music. But Paulo's music is not easy. I'll partly blame my rather poor guitar but I found the music too challenging. Paulo's music seemed to me as if it was written for an instrument with low basses (but I don't think I'm hearing Marco Meloni with bourdons on both?) and there were never any campanellas. But Marco Meloni gives very impressive and convincing performances of Paulo's music. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces
On 12/01/2011 17:39, Chris Despopoulos wrote: Always one to toot my own horn (or pluck my own strings, as it were), I have posted some recordings on my personal site at: [1]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ Very nice Chris. Chancy's music is a lot more sophisticated or more 'modern' than Skene or the Ulm mandore MS (well 133a and b). I do like the Branle de Bocan. It's in Ulm 133b as a five course fingerstyle (or prectrum +fingers) piece. (Maybe the other two Branles are in there, somewhere too). What strings do you have on your Baroque guitar. The instrument (it's fully re-entrant, isn't it?) sounds very resonant. I was bit surprised by the opening of the Jacaras? And the Sarabanda sounds very familiar but is it really a sarabanda and in Sanz? Stuart Two tracks are some old recordings I did on the mandore, and three others are on the baroque guitar... I keep meaning to do better, but where's the time? Anyway, the mandore recordings are of Chancy's Suite #5, and 3 of his series of 6 branles. The tablatures are for a 4-string instrument, and as I understand it, to be played with a plectrum. At least that's what I was taught by Didier Le Roux and other members of l'Ensemble Gabriel Leone (I was *very* fortunate to attend a class that reviewed the mandolin. I never made it past the mandore.) In spite of being played with a plectrum, the Chancy music is full of hidden polyphony. For the miniature qualities it has on the surface, I believe the music is vast in scope... if only I could reveal a fraction of its depth and breadth I'd be happy. Anyway, for your enjoyment... Vive le mandore! cheers cud ______ From: Stuart Walsh [2] To: "Nelson, Jocelyn" [3] Cc: Vihuelalist [4]; Chris Despopoulos [5] Sent: Wed, January 12, 2011 11:52:10 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces On 12/01/2011 16:35, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: > Certainly nothing wrong with dances and ballad tunes, as you demonstrate. > > Is the tuning similar to the 4-course? > > I'm not familiar with mandore literature, and now I'm looking forward to > learning more about it. > > JN > > > Jean-Marie Poirier has a site devoted to the instrument. [6]http://le.luth.free.fr/mandore/index.html It's French, of course but there is a pdf of an article by the late James Tyler from Early Music. Donald Gill and James Tyler have both tried to promote the mandore (and the mandolino) and have both written about them. Supposing a tuning with top d (it might be g - or something else) then a four-course tuning would be g-d-g-d (or g-d-g'-d' or maybe I mean d'', but you get the point!). And a five course instrument would be d-g-d-g-d. But on both four and five-course instruments the top course could be lowered to c, b flat etc. Also the Skene MS has a section of pieces in lute tuning. Stuart > > On 1/11/2011 2:34 PM, "Stuart Walsh"<[7]s.wa...@ntlworld.com> wrote: > >> On 11/01/2011 01:48, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: >>> I really enjoyed this, Stuart. Thanks for posting! >>> Best, >>> Jocelyn >>> >>> >>> >> Thanks! >> >> I have only one section of the Ulm collection and in that there are 123 >> pieces for five-course mandore (fingerstyle or mixed plectrum and >> fingers) and a small number for four-course mandore (probably plectrum). >> So the Skene and the Ulm collections make up several hundred pieces - >> approaching the size of the repertoire for the four-course guitar. And >> then there are the Chancy pieces and some other things. >> >> Of course the four-course guitar's repertoire is more varied: songs, >> abstract pieces, chanson settings as well as dances etc and the mandore >> repertoire seems to be mainly dances and ballad tunes. Very nice though. >> >> >> Stuart >> >> >> >>> On 1/10/2011 7:04 AM, "Chris Despopoulos"<[8]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>>Thanks... My instrument is 30 cm, and actually 5-course, single >>>>strung. I presume it's made according to historical >>>> understanding... >>>>I believe Carlos Gonzales is a historian as well as builder -- he's >>>>planning a workshop on building ancient Egyptian/Coptic lutes this >>>>April, for example. I
[VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces
On 12/01/2011 16:35, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: Certainly nothing wrong with dances and ballad tunes, as you demonstrate. Is the tuning similar to the 4-course? I'm not familiar with mandore literature, and now I'm looking forward to learning more about it. JN Jean-Marie Poirier has a site devoted to the instrument. http://le.luth.free.fr/mandore/index.html It's French, of course but there is a pdf of an article by the late James Tyler from Early Music. Donald Gill and James Tyler have both tried to promote the mandore (and the mandolino) and have both written about them. Supposing a tuning with top d (it might be g - or something else) then a four-course tuning would be g-d-g-d (or g-d-g'-d' or maybe I mean d'', but you get the point!). And a five course instrument would be d-g-d-g-d. But on both four and five-course instruments the top course could be lowered to c, b flat etc. Also the Skene MS has a section of pieces in lute tuning. Stuart On 1/11/2011 2:34 PM, "Stuart Walsh" wrote: On 11/01/2011 01:48, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: I really enjoyed this, Stuart. Thanks for posting! Best, Jocelyn Thanks! I have only one section of the Ulm collection and in that there are 123 pieces for five-course mandore (fingerstyle or mixed plectrum and fingers) and a small number for four-course mandore (probably plectrum). So the Skene and the Ulm collections make up several hundred pieces - approaching the size of the repertoire for the four-course guitar. And then there are the Chancy pieces and some other things. Of course the four-course guitar's repertoire is more varied: songs, abstract pieces, chanson settings as well as dances etc and the mandore repertoire seems to be mainly dances and ballad tunes. Very nice though. Stuart On 1/10/2011 7:04 AM, "Chris Despopoulos" wrote: Thanks... My instrument is 30 cm, and actually 5-course, single strung. I presume it's made according to historical understanding... I believe Carlos Gonzales is a historian as well as builder -- he's planning a workshop on building ancient Egyptian/Coptic lutes this April, for example. I prefer to use the thin quill of a feather as a plectrum, as I saw done on the R. lute once. For as thin and short as the strings are, it helps to have something equally tiny to set the string in motion. And of course, the Chancy MS is to be done with a plectrum as far as I know. But I have to say, your playing had me fooled... It sounds like a mandore to me! And they are lovely tunes. cud ______ From: Stuart Walsh To: Vihuelalist Sent: Mon, January 10, 2011 6:19:40 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces Thanks Chris I should have said I'm not playing these pieces on a mandore, but on a small, single-strung instrument, tuned like a mandore. My instrument has a string length of 37cms and so is larger (and, no doubt, easier to play) than a typical four-course, four-string mandore. On the other hand, maybe there was a difference in size between the four-course (four-string) plectrum-played mandore and the five-course, fingerstyle (or plectrum+fingers style) instrument. I knew about the Ulm tablatures from Donald Gill and James Tyler but it was Jean-Marie Poirier who pointed me in the direction of the Cornetto catalogue. [1]http://www.faksimiles.org/verlag.htm I think there are three separate tabaltures in the Ulm collection and the Cornetto facsimiles are quite expensive. At Jean-Marie's suggestion I got Cornetto catalogue, 0073 which turned out to be two nicely-produced facsimiles. The main 'book' (there's probably a technical name for a publication roughly 8 inches by 6 inches) has music for a five course instrument and uses a couple of tunings but mainly one (in fourths and fifths, without lowering the first course). Like the Skene MS, it has to be fingerstyle or plectrum plus fingers. The supplementary 'book' has only a few pieces, all or mainly from the larger collection, but now set for a four-course instrument, presumably to be played with a plectrum. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.faksimiles.org/verlag.htm 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces
On 11/01/2011 01:48, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: I really enjoyed this, Stuart. Thanks for posting! Best, Jocelyn Thanks! I have only one section of the Ulm collection and in that there are 123 pieces for five-course mandore (fingerstyle or mixed plectrum and fingers) and a small number for four-course mandore (probably plectrum). So the Skene and the Ulm collections make up several hundred pieces - approaching the size of the repertoire for the four-course guitar. And then there are the Chancy pieces and some other things. Of course the four-course guitar's repertoire is more varied: songs, abstract pieces, chanson settings as well as dances etc and the mandore repertoire seems to be mainly dances and ballad tunes. Very nice though. Stuart On 1/10/2011 7:04 AM, "Chris Despopoulos" wrote: Thanks... My instrument is 30 cm, and actually 5-course, single strung. I presume it's made according to historical understanding... I believe Carlos Gonzales is a historian as well as builder -- he's planning a workshop on building ancient Egyptian/Coptic lutes this April, for example. I prefer to use the thin quill of a feather as a plectrum, as I saw done on the R. lute once. For as thin and short as the strings are, it helps to have something equally tiny to set the string in motion. And of course, the Chancy MS is to be done with a plectrum as far as I know. But I have to say, your playing had me fooled... It sounds like a mandore to me! And they are lovely tunes. cud ______ From: Stuart Walsh To: Vihuelalist Sent: Mon, January 10, 2011 6:19:40 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces Thanks Chris I should have said I'm not playing these pieces on a mandore, but on a small, single-strung instrument, tuned like a mandore. My instrument has a string length of 37cms and so is larger (and, no doubt, easier to play) than a typical four-course, four-string mandore. On the other hand, maybe there was a difference in size between the four-course (four-string) plectrum-played mandore and the five-course, fingerstyle (or plectrum+fingers style) instrument. I knew about the Ulm tablatures from Donald Gill and James Tyler but it was Jean-Marie Poirier who pointed me in the direction of the Cornetto catalogue. [1]http://www.faksimiles.org/verlag.htm I think there are three separate tabaltures in the Ulm collection and the Cornetto facsimiles are quite expensive. At Jean-Marie's suggestion I got Cornetto catalogue, 0073 which turned out to be two nicely-produced facsimiles. The main 'book' (there's probably a technical name for a publication roughly 8 inches by 6 inches) has music for a five course instrument and uses a couple of tunings but mainly one (in fourths and fifths, without lowering the first course). Like the Skene MS, it has to be fingerstyle or plectrum plus fingers. The supplementary 'book' has only a few pieces, all or mainly from the larger collection, but now set for a four-course instrument, presumably to be played with a plectrum. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.faksimiles.org/verlag.htm 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces
Thanks Chris I should have said I'm not playing these pieces on a mandore, but on a small, single-strung instrument, tuned like a mandore. My instrument has a string length of 37cms and so is larger (and, no doubt, easier to play) than a typical four-course, four-string mandore. On the other hand, maybe there was a difference in size between the four-course (four-string) plectrum-played mandore and the five-course, fingerstyle (or plectrum+fingers style) instrument. I knew about the Ulm tablatures from Donald Gill and James Tyler but it was Jean-Marie Poirier who pointed me in the direction of the Cornetto catalogue. http://www.faksimiles.org/verlag.htm I think there are three separate tabaltures in the Ulm collection and the Cornetto facsimiles are quite expensive. At Jean-Marie's suggestion I got Cornetto catalogue, 0073 which turned out to be two nicely-produced facsimiles. The main 'book' (there's probably a technical name for a publication roughly 8 inches by 6 inches) has music for a five course instrument and uses a couple of tunings but mainly one (in fourths and fifths, without lowering the first course). Like the Skene MS, it has to be fingerstyle or plectrum plus fingers. The supplementary 'book' has only a few pieces, all or mainly from the larger collection, but now set for a four-course instrument, presumably to be played with a plectrum. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] some Ulm mandore pieces
Probably the Skene mandore MS is more well known but there are lots and lots of pieces in series of (French? but ended up in Ulm) tablatures from the same period. Here are three short pieces. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KfiOtlaFCo Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Sad news
On 25/11/2010 19:37, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: Dear Early Guitar List, I’m very sad to report that James Tyler has passed away. I don’t know any details; I have recently corresponded with him, and yesterday morning I received this heartbreaking email from Joyce Tyler, sent from his own email address: “It is with deepest regret that I inform you of the passing of my beloved Jim.” I replied with condolences and an offer to help, and haven’t heard back from her yet so I don’t know any more than this. He wrote the standard reference for early guitar studies, "The Guitar and its Music from the Renaissance to the Classical Era" with co-author Paul Sparks, and Tyler also wrote the entries on four-course and five-course guitar in The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians and Grove Online. His distinguished career as both an international performer and a musicologist, in fact, merits its own entry in Grove and other encyclopedias. This is a tragic loss for the early guitar and lute community, and the early music world. I know that you will want to join me in extending our deepest sympathies to Jim’s family, and that you will keep them in your thoughts during this difficult time. Jocelyn That is sad. I remember James from his early music courses at West Dean in the 1980s. And from his recordings - sometimes of music which amateurs could have actually have a hope of playing. It was his English guitar recording that got me interested in that instrument and, out of the blue, he emailed me last year when he was trying to locate Ann Ford's Instructions (for the English guitar). He said that he had retired but was very busy working on a book. I remember him at the bar at West Dean being cajoled into a demonstration of the cakewalk. After much (not wholly convincing) protestation - he did indeed do the cakewalk! Stuart Jocelyn Nelson, DMA Teaching Assistant Professor 506 School of Music East Carolina University 252.328.1255 office 252.328.6258 fax nels...@ecu.edu To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
On 24/11/2010 12:54, Monica Hall wrote: Rather surprisingly the one 17th century mention of this practice [having the low note on the thumb side] is in Ruiz de Ribayaz's Luz y norte musical. It's astonishing really. Hundreds of guitar publications and MSS in the seventeenth century and just one mention of it. and yet everyone today uses this method of stringing with bourdons. The actual evidence is so slight. It is also illustrated in the article by Rousseau in Diderot's encyclopedia. So that would be after 1750 anyway and a quite different world. So is that all: Stradivarius in some notes (early 18th C?), Ribayez, 17th C and Rousseau, late 18th century? But I think it may have been common on the cittern as well. The instrument in Saldivar Codex 2 has the low octave string on the third course placed between the two treble strings. The cittern is a very different instrument and a fairly minor instrument at this time. There is no comparable repertoire to the guitar. In fact, not much of a repertoire at all. Stuart On the guitar it is not just a question of campanellas. The 5th course is used quite a lot as a treble string in the part writing and whether or not bourdons are used I think it is necessary to have it on the thumb side of the course. Monica Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
On 23/11/2010 22:08, Alexander Batov wrote: I quite agree with Martyn that the use of an octave on the third course is a bit of an overkill with all-gut stringing, whatever SL is there. And lets not forget that the main purpose of octave stringing in olden times was to enhance the sound of dull-sounding thick gut strings But - as usual - the Baroque guitar seems to be different from other plucked instruments of the time in that the low string and the octave above it are positioned in reverse from the norm. On lutes (etc) , on the lower courses with octaves, the thumb hits the low note first (presumably with gut, a bit of dull sound) and then the octave above which gives the overall bass sound more focus. But - probably universally today - Baroque guitarists set up guitars so that when the thumb hits the low course(s) the high octave sounds first and then the thumb hits the bass. I think the actual evidence from the time is minute - something in Stradivarius and ? at most a couple of other things? (Plus something much later? Merchi? - when the bass notes are unambiguously bass notes anyway) Of course, every one is setting up their guitars in this way to get campanellas and to try and make more sense of the music. But that's quite different from merely enhancing the sound of dull-sounding thick gut strings. Stuart , which would be hardly necessary on under 1.0 mm thick third course. Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
So - is this the list so far - of music that is acknowledged in the text itself as fully re-entrant? 1) Briceño 2) Carré 3) Valdambrini 4) (all/most/some?) Sanz 5) the manuscripts of Monsieur Dupille, commissaire de guerre in Paris, from c.1649: F-Pg MS 2344, and two more And more speculatively, (I've just remembered Tyler's tutor. His first section is for fully re-entrant guitar and he includes music from Lady Elizabeth Cromwell's guitar book, Sanz, Matteis and Murcia (1714) but, apart from the Sanz, these are probably much more controversial.) 1) Lelio Colista 2) Lady Elizabeth Cromwell's guitar book 3) Matteis (pieces that open "False Consonsances ") 4) Murcia (Resumen) Of course, players in those times might have ignored these instructions and the whole situation could have been very fluid,varying from place to place and time to time. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
On 21/11/2010 09:45, Lex Eisenhardt wrote: Even Carre has mentioned the 4th course bourdon, halfway his book. Some have taken this as an indication that he wanted French tuning for accompani ment (compare Sanz). We can't be sure. I only know the first publication of Carré. At the end of the solos there is a tuning chart in staff notation (and Monica thinks that this is lifted from Mersenne). The notes (on a treble clef with a b flat, for some reason) and all within one octave are: g,c,f,a,d. So it would seem that this is for a guitar with top string d'. Then there are continuo exercises with an instruction under the first exercise to put on octave on the fourth. But (as Monica notes in her introduction) the tuning is now for a guitar with top string e'. So already there are puzzles! Why would he want a guitar at d' for the solos and and e' for accompaniments. Was the g,c,f,a,d tuning just lifted from Mersenne? Anyway, twenty seven pages of solos ends with fully re-entrant tuning chart. And the continuo exercises clearly has an instruction to put an octave on the the fourthwhich presumably means, put on a low octave. (And, no mention at all of the which way around to put the high and low octave). In her intro to the LGV edition of Carré, Monica notes concordances with Corbetta, Bartolotti and Sanz. (Interesting) and a German MS from c.1673 You forgot Briceno... I would add the manuscripts of Monsieur Dupille, commissaire de guerre in Paris, from c.1649: F-Pg MS 2344, and two more. He has given the re-entrant tuning in staff. In one of the Castillion manuscripts in Brussels there are some pieces of Lelio Colista, who Sanz has mentioned as a master in Rome. Presumably re-entrant tuning. Lex -- So - is this the list so far - of music that is acknowledged in the text itself as fully re-entrant? 1) Briceño 2) Carré 3) Valdambrini 4) (all/most/some?) Sanz 5) the manuscripts of Monsieur Dupille, commissaire de guerre in Paris, from c.1649: F-Pg MS 2344, and two more And more speculatively, 1) Lelio Colista Of course, players in those times might have ignored these instructions and the whole situation could have been very fluid,varying from place to place and time to time. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
Dear flat-back lutenists, is there any repertoire/composer of baroque guitar that/who without any modern disagreement definitely used the "double re-entrant" tuning - the 5th and 4th having only in the upper octaves? De Visee perhaps? An interesting question. I'd like to see a list too. And a more contested list of what may well be music for this tuning, but not actually specified. I think these are definitely for the fully re-entrant tuning: Valdambrini Carré some (?) Sanz and? Stuart To a theorbist with two top strings lowered an octave that setting sounds really interesting - the opposite way of putting the fingerboard strings sound a lot in the same octave! In a therbo in a from A to b, in b-guitar in e from g to e'. In this interesting light just considering of getting a b-guitar... :) Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: guitar publications with harmonics
On 20/11/2010 22:07, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: Hello early guitarists, I just received a query: “Do you know the earliest publications for lute and/or guitar in which harmonics were used?” Any thoughts? Thanks, Jocelyn According to Oleg Timofeyev: [Semion Aksionov] "apparently invented the special effect in guitar playing known today as artificial harmonics" which is explained in a guitar method in 1819. But natural harmonics must have predated this. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Video
On 28/10/2010 21:53, Monica Hall wrote: Now for something completely different. Check this out now. Apparently dates from 1972 when we were all young and innocent. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZgCpx8BN78 Monica It says 1979. So perhaps 'we' were starting to get old and jaded by then. But really a truly historical moment in Britain when the Right moved back in (and have remained, and now in full force) to put the pesky working class in its place. I was buying some bread today and the customer in front of me - a hair-dresser - was just saying how she had been 'thrown on the scrap heap' the day before. James seems completely fluent on the banjo - even more so than on the early instruments that he pioneered. And he smiled when he played (as he did). Very music hall. The medieval plucker,Crawford Young played the banjo too. And Rob is away with the banjo-ists now.. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Pakistani Baroque Guitar?
Could be Vietnamese rather than Pakistani. Last June Jelma Almersfoot gave a link to somewhere here in Britain selling these instruments but the link is now broken. I contacted the company and several phone calls and eleven emails followed. I got the impression that the company (mainly selling other instruments like recorders) just had a couple of prototype Baroque guitars (and possibly not even fully set up). The person from the company seemed extraordinarily keen for me to see the instrument - with the option of returning it: but so keen, I was reluctant to go ahead. Without going into detail, I didn't feel entirely confident about any aspect of the exchanges with the company. It would be really interesting to actually try one. If they exist beyond a few prototypes, they may be really good value...or they may not, of course. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Rondo-Andante for guitar
A short piece by the illustrious Joachim Peter Sautscheck (fl 18th century) lovingly transcribed for five-course guitar by the equally illustrious Antonio da Costa (very probably a relative of Pereyra da Costa, Mestre Da Capella da se do Funchal) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtC9xDSYGf4 Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Domingo Prat's Diccionario de Guitarristas
On 16/09/2010 21:54, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: Hi Everyone, My music librarian is pondering whether to buy this, after receiving a gift copy of the index. I haven't worked with this, but it looks like it would be a good resource. Do others on this list have an opinion? Many thanks, Jocelyn -- Ophee does a reprint of it for a mere $300! http://www.editionsorphee.com/books/diccionario.html As I remember, it's a really important source for the history of the guitar, but it's from 1934 and I think it's more useful for 19th century guitar, than earlier. Stuart Jocelyn Nelson, DMA Teaching Assistant Professor Early Guitar, Music History 336 Fletcher Music Center School of Music East Carolina University 252.328.1255 office 252.328.6258 fax [1]nels...@ecu.edu ___ -- References 1. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/nels...@ecu.edu To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Why two notations for the same play?
On 07/09/2010 14:14, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Dear Chris, Thanks for this. I think what you mean by 'redundancy' are these stroke/slashes against single notes following a chord - in which case you do now indeed understand my position - sorry if I didn't make it clearer earlier! If the single notes are to be played alone (without any accompanying chord) then the strokes/slashes are, indeed, often redundant - as in the first full bar of La favorita (which I've also just discussed in my reply to Stuart): the strokes after the 5, the 6 and the 3 are redundant if there is no strumming since the rythmn is already given by the flag above the stave. This led to questionning the meaning of these marks - not only in this piece (discussed by F) but in many others eg Balletto Pollaca where single notes are shown both with slashes and flags AND with just flags. I'm not sure I agree with you that a slash/stroke mark with a flag ALWAYS require an obligatory strum but I certainly do think the possibility of strumming (even partial - ie top courses in an upwards stroke) cannot always be ruled out. And you'll see from my earlier response to Stuart that, like you, I believe it can add to the rythmic stresses of the music. The de Gallot Italianate example discussed earlier is a good unequivocal example in another source. Finally, one thing I've been thinking about is a sort of compromise: could Foscarini be trying to indicate a dedillo type of index finger stroke - this is of course very close to a small strum stroke and adds a natural rythmic pulse to single note passages - rather similar to a light partial strum in fact. But the difficulty here is that you'd expect his description to include something about such an unusual approach. Martyn If the discussion is still about Balletto Polacca, here it is: [1]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/26.jpg There's a splodge in the middle of line one and here is a close-up. [2]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/26a.jpg The use of a dedillo type stroke is mentioned in several sources for the mandore. And at this sort of time. But they are French sources, not Italian. Stuart --- On Tue, 7/9/10, Chris Despopoulos [3] wrote: From: Chris Despopoulos [4] Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Why two notations for the same play? To: "Stuart Walsh" [5], "Martyn Hodgson" [6] Cc: "Monica Hall" [7], "Vihuelalist" [8] Date: Tuesday, 7 September, 2010, 13:37 Thanks Stuart for posting the manuscript. Thanks for your playing as well... Looking at the manuscript, I'm trying to find the notorious "doubled" expression for a note... Namely, what is redundant, and hence opens the question, why would the composer use redundant expressions for a note? The flags above the staff indicating duration are in no way redundant... They would be there for rasgueado or punteado, because they indicate how many strokes are in a measure (when the music expresses measures), and how much time should be between strokes. What IS redundant is the expression of a NUMBER value along with a strum mark. The existence of a number in the tab indicates a stroke, so adding the strum mark is a second indication of the same stroke. Up to now I had misunderstood what Martyn was commenting on. So Martyn, are you saying that there should be no stroke mark if there is a number on a string? Because that is the only redundancy I can see. As to *why* there would be a strum mark if there is also a number, I can still maintain that it's to indicate up- vs down-strokes for the individual notes. That is important -- especially so if you use bordones. But even without bordones, up or down lends a variation to the pulse, and there's nothing trivial about that. Further, looking at the manuscript, I see that Foscarini calls for changes in the up/down pulse that I didn't initially hit upon from Monica's transcription. I wonder if Monica would consider adding in the strum maks for those notes, or some other indication of up- vs down-stroke. But my point remains -- even if you take a number as a single note only, the expression of the single note and the strum direction are not redundant in my view. Now if anything for the BORDONE argument, you could take the stroke marks after the G as an argument in favor of bordones... Why insist on a down-stroke to start that figure, when it echos an earlier figure that began with an up-stroke?. But to be honest, I have no appetite for that argument! When the day comes that I put bordones on my instr
[VIHUELA] Re: Why two notations for the same play?
On 07/09/2010 08:33, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Hmmm.. Well you may not read this Monica but someone might who can enlighten us as to why Foscarini in particular uses two distinct notations for IN THE SAME PIECE if they are to be played in precisely the same way! And no, you haven't really explained this since the idea that flags do not 'indicate the rhythm' satisfactorily is simply not true. Martyn This is quite a tortuous thread. I don't think we should get too cross with each other for not meticulously reading other people's messages. I've noticed in other discussions that some things I've written obviously haven't been read by some other contributors. And when I write something I often haven't meticulously read the relevant message I'm replying too. (Like now!) Martyn, are you talking about La Favorita on p.60? This: http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Favorita.jpg (Surely Monica has given her response to this. She claims it's a result of an evolving notation; mature 'mixed notation' hadn't been invented yet!) Monica's interpretation of this piece - and discussion of the issues: (page 36 - bit page 55 of the pdf) http://www.tinyurls.co.uk/Z11810 Anyway, if it La Favorita, it's quite clear that it's not at all clear: no bar lines, no indication that the first chord is,or is not, the first beat of the bar etc. Monica's interpretation and transcription of this piece seems very convincing. Here's a very rough and ready go at the first section (16 bars, too!) on a very poor instrument (the single notes don't shine out at all) and an instrument with bourdons. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/STE-015.mp3 Monica has made a tremendous effort in trying to make these pieces playable. (I've been playing other instruments recently and I'd forgotten just how difficult some of these guitar chords can be. (Especially Ms)) Anyway, Martyn, I think you are saying that some of these single notes, notated with a strum (and/or rhythm sign) could or should be played along with the preceding chord. I don't know how you would do that with bar 1 (Monica's edition) but it would be easy to do at bar 6, 7 and 12. But Monica says that Foscarini expressly says not to in one his rules (mentioning La Favorita) and thereby establishing a principle. Either way, it's not gong to make a huge difference, is it? Stuart --- On Mon, 6/9/10, Monica Hall wrote: From: Monica Hall Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Partial strums in Foscarini (was Foscarini/Gallot) To: "Martyn Hodgson" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Date: Monday, 6 September, 2010, 16:29 I am afraid I am not prepared to waste any more time arguing about this. If you think you know better than anyone else you can translate the Italian into English yourself. The term he uses is "botte" which means strokes. I have already explained why he is inconsistent in his use of note values. Corbetta also puts in note values as well as strokes. As do many of the earlier books. The reason why I lose my cool is because there are some people on this list who are unable to admit that they are ever wrong and try to impose their views regardless. What do you expect me to do? Turn round and say "Oh yes - I think you are right" after having given the matter a lot of thought and played much of the music. I find that patronising. I am not going to follow Lex and storm off the list but I am going to take a break. I have better things to do with my time. Monica - Original Message - From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> To: "Monica Hall"<[2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> Cc: "Vihuelalist"<[3]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 4:00 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Partial strums in Foscarini (was Foscarini/Gallot) > > >Well You've given the translation before (and I presume it is 100% >unequivocal in referring to the relevant slashes rather than flags in >their respective places in the piece on p 60?) and whilst I noted what >seems to be being said, the real problem remains that in some pieces he >notates these 'single' notes in two different ways - as already >mentioned in the Balletto Polacco page 19 for example. > >If the slash/stroke is to be applied so universally as you suggest (ie >he expects this specific rule to be applied generally in all his >pieces) why does he bother to show 'single' note quavers in two >distinct ways in the same piece? You say that just flags alone doesn't >'indicate the rhythm' and imply that the slashes/strokes do, but it is >really perfectly clear with just flags above the system - in particular >compare the opening of both first and second halves with their quaver >slashes
[VIHUELA] Foscarini on Radio 3
The whole concert by Private Musicke (and brief description of it) can be heard here. The songs and pieces were played uninterrupted in each half. This, presumably, is the Foscarini: http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Ff.mp3 Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Foscarini on BBC Radio 3 tomorrow
Radio 3's Lunchtime Concert tomorrow is from (or a recording from) the Edinburgh Festival. It's a concert by 'Private Musicke' with singer Magdalena Kozena. There are songs and also in there, is Sanz and (surprise, surprise,) Canarios but also a Ciaccona by Foscarini and some other guitar items. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt
Alfonso Marin wrote: Dear all, I have come across some beautiful Youtube videos of Lex Eisenhardt (my former guitar teacher at the Conservatory of Amsterdam before I studied the lute) that I well worth watching: http://www.youtube.com/user/secondolibro I hope you enjoy them! Greetings, Alfonso It's great to see these pieces being played. In the past I've struggled - without much success - with the Em Prelude and Allemande. (Is there an extra little campanella just near the end of the Prelude?) I should be able to hear, but does the fifth have a bourdon? It's always extremely interesting to see a professional perform a piece as well as play the music. Stuart -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Corrente by Foscarini and scordatura
I found this scordatura tuning very refreshing (and fresh sounding - especially the chords) when I had a go at the pieces in it, a while ago. I seem to remember you saying that you found it rather depressing. Stuart I think the music sounds rather sinister - if not funebre - especially the sarabande. I have done this and the allemande and am working on the Passemezzo. Monica I'm intrigued that you find this tuning 'sinister'. I had a go at playing three of the scordatura pieces a couple of years ago and I found this tuning almost intoxicating. I've dug out a rough old video and uploaded it again. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6tjQfcvqbQ The Sarabanda is the really strange one.Lex has written about it in the latest edition of 'The Lute' (as you know). It's very chordal but completely free of alfabeto and the usual chord shapes and sounds which have been familiar for centuries. Lex sees it as French and slow and sultry. I - and I'm just an amateur floundering about in these waters - had been reading about the sarabanda as a dance that had been banned in some places because it was so lewd! I thought it was quite fast. (But, I suppose, a dance can danced sexually either slow or fast). I found that playing the Sarabanda quite fast made it at least 10 times more difficult than the other two pieces. The most juicy chord in there, which may be a mistake of course, but sounds amazing, is a sort of combination of tonic and dominant at once. It's very intense but finds resolution too () Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Corrente detta la Funebre by Foscarini
Monica Hall wrote: Yes - I was a bit surprised by the title. I wonder if it was a misprint for la favorita which is the subtitle of the Zarabanda. That would be an amazing Freudian slip to mean to engrave favorita and instead end up with funebre! But it is one of the pieces which is probably an arrangement of a lute piece. Sounds quite nice played with a bourdon on the 5th course! How about doing the rest of the suite? The preludio and alemanda gave me quite a few headaches. I have nearly finished Book 5 but at the moment I am working on the scordatura pieces. Had enough spare time to re-tune my guitar and the Django programme. I found this scordatura tuning very refreshing (and fresh sounding - especially the chords) when I had a go at the pieces in it, a while ago. I seem to remember you saying that you found it rather depressing. It's a sort of G major tuning without the low G. I once thought that there just might be a connection between this tuning and the tuning for the Russian guitar which emerged around 1800 (OK - 160 years later). Then you pointed to well over 30 other tunings for the Baroque guitar! Quite independently of Lex, I found three pieces in the scordatura section that are reasonably coherent without too much intervention. But the other pieces are much more problematic, I think. I felt that Fosco had found some things that he liked in that tuning and was beginning to repeat himself in the scordatura section (it's like a microcosm of the work as a whole). Nevertheless the Toccata, Corrente and Sarabanda are great little pieces (most of all the Sarabanda). Stuart Monica - Original Message ----- From: "Stuart Walsh" To: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 2:17 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Corrente detta la Funebre by Foscarini Great title, though a bit surprisingly it's in F major. This is one of Monica's interpretations of Foscarini's puzzling tablatures. I've changed the last bit of the first section and bars 30/31 and bar 33. (Also, I'm an amateur trying to squeeze every bit of sound out of a guitar which hardly has any). It's by Foscarini - so it's got 'issues'.It's a Corrente - so flowing? It's got a descriptive title - funereally flowing? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zud0X76iSA The Foscarini solos are on Monica's page: http://earlyguitar.ning.com/profile/MonicaHall Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Corrente detta la Funebre by Foscarini
Great title, though a bit surprisingly it's in F major. This is one of Monica's interpretations of Foscarini's puzzling tablatures. I've changed the last bit of the first section and bars 30/31 and bar 33. (Also, I'm an amateur trying to squeeze every bit of sound out of a guitar which hardly has any). It's by Foscarini - so it's got 'issues'.It's a Corrente - so flowing? It's got a descriptive title - funereally flowing? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zud0X76iSA The Foscarini solos are on Monica's page: http://earlyguitar.ning.com/profile/MonicaHall Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar - strumming
century. What did happen at the end of the century is that the 5th course was added to the guitar - or at least became more common. These things never happen overnight and are seldom the invention of an individual. Notation evolves as musical styles change and always lags behind. (The very first essay I had to write at Uni was on this subject!) Returning to the 4-course books, as I originally pointed out these are printed using the same font of type as the lute books published by Leroy & Co. At least one of them includes music for cittern printed in the same way although - since the cittern is played with a plectrum the chords must have been strummed. The font of type probably didn't include any means of indicate elaborate right-hand technique. Since the lute (I believe) was also originally played with a plectrum it's hard to believe that chords were not occasionally strummed even if there is no indication of this. Many of the 4-part chords in these books are the standard alfabeto chords minus the 5th course. Les Bouffons is a classic example since it is based on a standard chord sequence - I IV I V I IV I V I and the chords in alfabeto are A B A C A B A C A i.e. Gm Cm Gm Dm Gm Cm Gm Dm Gm They didn't suddenly start strumming them when they added the 5th course. My fingers don't end up miles away from the strings when strumming and I have no difficulty in playing pieces in mixed style - and I'm only an amateur! Leaving out the first course is standard practice - De Visee and others even puts in dots to indicate the ones to be left out. It is also standard practice to strum the inner three courses on the 5-course guitar. When playing the baroque guitar you should not play close to the bridge at all. That is a lute thing This is what Santiago de Murcia says- "The usual method of all beginners is to place the little finger beside the bridge of the guitar, so as to steady the hand, because many are unable to strike the strings with the hand free, but only in the aforesaid manner. This [manner of playing] will not be seen used by any expert who plays this instrument with any skill, especially if the works being played are delicate with strummed chords because these must be played in the middle of the instrument. The hand should only be placed on the bridge when it is necessary to play loudly, as when accompanying another instrument." You shouldn't be playing the guitar as if it were a lute. That will have to do for now - but Please, Please, Stuart when you reply to messages can you put your reply at the top. As far as I am aware this is standard "netiquette" or what you will - practice. Otherwise the messages are a complete muddle!! Monica . - Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" Cc: "'Vihuelalist'" Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 11:11 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar - strumming Here's 'Les Buffons' as in the Phalèse edition of 1570 and in Geisbert's 1969 trancription. Giesbert has added fingering and strumming symbols that are not in the original. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/PhaleseBouffons.jpg Now some people, like (I hope I'm right in this) Monica and Martyn think that a piece like this (and many others) might - or even would - have been strummed. Whenever I have had a run through of this repertoire - and pieces like this - I've never thought of strumming as first option but something that might just be added in places. Martin Shepherd pointed out some examples of strumming in the lute music of the time but it would seem to be fair to say that out of the thousands of lute pieces from this time when the lute was the pre-eminent instrument, strumming occupies only a minute fragment. So strumming was not a typical or common practice on the lute, it would seem.Strumming block chords on guitars (on all strings) emerged at the end of the 16th century (of course, correct me on this if I'm wrong!) but playing this version of Les Bouffons with strumming would involve the mixed strumming and plucking style that Foscarini claimed to have invented in the 17th century. I play Les Bouffons (and pieces like this) fingerstyle and the fingers are in position to play the punteado,fingerstyle bits. One of the issues of the mixed style of the 17th century is that if you do a fancy strum then your fingers end up half a mile away from the strings and then you have to get them back to do some fingerstyle play. Also in Les Bouffons, in the second bar of the second section, if you are strumming, you have to do a strum which omits the top course. That's a bit tricky to do and the arranger didn't include the addition of another note on the top course (fret one) which would make a simple downward strum easy to do and hardly interrupts the melodic line such as it is. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar - strumming
Here's 'Les Buffons' as in the Phalèse edition of 1570 and in Geisbert's 1969 trancription. Giesbert has added fingering and strumming symbols that are not in the original. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/PhaleseBouffons.jpg Now some people, like (I hope I'm right in this) Monica and Martyn think that a piece like this (and many others) might - or even would - have been strummed. Whenever I have had a run through of this repertoire - and pieces like this - I've never thought of strumming as first option but something that might just be added in places. Martin Shepherd pointed out some examples of strumming in the lute music of the time but it would seem to be fair to say that out of the thousands of lute pieces from this time when the lute was the pre-eminent instrument, strumming occupies only a minute fragment. So strumming was not a typical or common practice on the lute, it would seem.Strumming block chords on guitars (on all strings) emerged at the end of the 16th century (of course, correct me on this if I'm wrong!) but playing this version of Les Bouffons with strumming would involve the mixed strumming and plucking style that Foscarini claimed to have invented in the 17th century. I play Les Bouffons (and pieces like this) fingerstyle and the fingers are in position to play the punteado,fingerstyle bits. One of the issues of the mixed style of the 17th century is that if you do a fancy strum then your fingers end up half a mile away from the strings and then you have to get them back to do some fingerstyle play. Also in Les Bouffons, in the second bar of the second section, if you are strumming, you have to do a strum which omits the top course. That's a bit tricky to do and the arranger didn't include the addition of another note on the top course (fret one) which would make a simple downward strum easy to do and hardly interrupts the melodic line such as it is. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
Monica Hall wrote: You mention the fact that the printed sources of 4-course music don't indicate that the chords should be strummed. But there is no reason why they shouldn't be. The guitar books are printed using the same font of type as lute books printed by Leroy and Ballard & co and are printed in the same way. Either they didn't have anything suitable in the font of type to indicate right hand technique or they didn't think it was necessary. There are lots of places where repeated chords seem obviously intended to be strummed. Monica, are you saying that the 1570 publication of Phalèse and Bellère has no indications of strumming either? Like Martyn, I've never seen these tablatures and, like Martyn, I have the 1970s Geisbert two volumes of transcriptions for modern guitar. Geisbert gives indications of strumming in some of the pieces, so presumably he made it all up? It might have been difficult to indicate strums in the way that music was set at that time but even the four-course guitar music in the Braye MS - which has loads of block chords - doesn't have any indications of strumming. Of course, absence of strumming indications doesn't mean that players didn't use strums. Strumming might just have been expected as a natural thing to do, given the nature of the instrument. (But then - apart from some precious French stuff from the following century anyway - why was the 16th century lute not typically strummed too?). It might have been the case that strumming was an option but only by those with good taste, or the complete opposite, as something only fit for peasants! Stuart One of the books - can't remember off hand which - also includes pieces for the 4-course cittern which would have been played with a plectrum and therefore strummed. It would have been up to the player to decide whether the strokes were up and down etc. I have just got a copy of this manuscript copied in 1649 which belonged to Monsier DuPille. This includes one of the guitar songs from Moulinie's book. Moulinie hasn't indicated that the accompaniment should be strummed but in the manuscript it is clear that it should be - the note values are on the stave with tails up and down. Haven't had time to go through the manuscript in detail but I think some of the pieces may from the 4-course repertoire but up-graded for 5-course. All are clearly intended to be strummed. Printed sources are constrained by what is practical. They certainly don't give us the whole picture! Monica - Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" To: "Eugene C. Braig IV" Cc: "'List LUTELIST'" ; "'Vihuelalist'" Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 7:03 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: Yes, I agree with all, especially regarding elaborating on brief dance melodies or chord progressions. It's hard to guess what improvisation on guitar might have sounded like in the renaissance or baroque era. It's when there is an abrupt change of style leaning heavily on new-agey-sounding suspensions, etc. that such improvisations can be distracting. Best, Eugene I hope Massimo won't mind me including an example. Overall, he plays very beautifully and he adds strums, which, of course, are not in the original but which sound really appropriate and musical. And he uses some strange inegale at times too, which maybe what some people did or how he, as a musician, hears the music. (And in general, no doubt, all sorts of improvisation was used all over the place) What bothers me are these rather fay little vamps which he uses in a number of the dances. Here is an example: many people will know this little Branle de Champaigne. Ex1 is the opening - four bars of the little vamp figure and then the actual music. At the end of the Branle the vamp figure returns as a sort of interlude into a repeat (Ex2). It's a very attractive little dance and it's very short and the vamp makes it into something bigger. But it seems, to me anyway, really quite out of character. Surely an improvised second run through (or a written out 'plus diminueé') would surely be better. Or play a set of dances. Or just play it twice. opening (Ex1) http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/ex1.mp3 middle Ex2) http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/ex2.mp3 Stuart -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Chris Despopoulos Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 12:23 PM To: Eugene C. Braig IV; List LUTELIST; Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Having just attended classes on the Baroque Guitar at La Semana de Musica Antigua in Gijon, Spain... Eduardo Eguez pointed out that the Sanz manuscript is a book of ensenyanza... that is, you're learning the pieces.
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
Chris Despopoulos wrote: Interesting... I didn't find this to be so much out of character. If anything, I would want to hear it played a little bolder perhaps. A branle is a dance, and the same tune was probably repeated many times. It had to be embellished. What if the crowd needed a moment to get back to the starting position before commencing again? THrow in a little vamp. Yes, but...probably the little four-course guitar was not providing dance music for a crowd. And the four-course guitar dance arrangements were probably not intended to provide music for any dancers (though it's possible). The LeRoy guitar books have a selection of dances, chanson settings and fantasias, they're not dance books per se, like the Gervaise publications (though some tunes in Gervaise are in LeRoy). And Massimo Lonardi isn't a live recording from a dance event, trying to adjust to errant dancers. Stuart Well, all this is speculation. Really, period musicians should study dances of the time just to get a better sense of the situation. I'm hoping for a chance to do that some day. But this year I think my big lesson is that much of the music was functional. And so the chore in front of me now is to learn more about those functions. cud ---- *From:* Stuart Walsh *To:* Eugene C. Braig IV *Cc:* List LUTELIST ; Vihuelalist *Sent:* Fri, July 30, 2010 2:03:31 PM *Subject:* [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: > Yes, I agree with all, especially regarding elaborating on brief dance > melodies or chord progressions. It's hard to guess what improvisation on > guitar might have sounded like in the renaissance or baroque era. It's when > there is an abrupt change of style leaning heavily on new-agey-sounding > suspensions, etc. that such improvisations can be distracting. > > Best, > Eugene > > > I hope Massimo won't mind me including an example. Overall, he plays very beautifully and he adds strums, which, of course, are not in the original but which sound really appropriate and musical. And he uses some strange inegale at times too, which maybe what some people did or how he, as a musician, hears the music. (And in general, no doubt, all sorts of improvisation was used all over the place) What bothers me are these rather fay little vamps which he uses in a number of the dances. Here is an example: many people will know this little Branle de Champaigne. Ex1 is the opening - four bars of the little vamp figure and then the actual music. At the end of the Branle the vamp figure returns as a sort of interlude into a repeat (Ex2). It's a very attractive little dance and it's very short and the vamp makes it into something bigger. But it seems, to me anyway, really quite out of character. Surely an improvised second run through (or a written out 'plus diminueé') would surely be better. Or play a set of dances. Or just play it twice. opening (Ex1) http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/ex1.mp3 middle Ex2) http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/ex2.mp3 Stuart >> -Original Message- >> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu>] On >> Behalf Of Chris Despopoulos >> Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 12:23 PM >> To: Eugene C. Braig IV; List LUTELIST; Vihuelalist >> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar >> >>Having just attended classes on the Baroque Guitar at La Semana de >>Musica Antigua in Gijon, Spain... >>Eduardo Eguez pointed out that the Sanz manuscript is a book of >>ensenyanza... that is, you're learning the pieces. Most certainly, >>any player above the beginner level would have taken these as >>suggestions, and would have improvised on these themes. That was how I >>took Eduardo's message on that front, anyway. Yes, there's music that >>is composed to the fullest extent, but Sanz (at least) seems to have >>made illustrations more so than compositions, per se. It may be that >>most of the existing guitar works are intended to be taken with a >>similar grain of salt? (Still thinking about that...) >>I have noticed a relatively recent movement in terms of Baroque guitar >>performance that tends toward improvisation. Xavier Diaz Latorre does >>this wonderfully, I think. >>In the same festival I attended a series of classes on disminuacion and >>ornamentacion. Again, the idea was that melodic lines were meant to >>include the addition of passing phrases from one note to another, >>and/or ornamentation -- all at the discretion of the
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: Yes, I agree with all, especially regarding elaborating on brief dance melodies or chord progressions. It's hard to guess what improvisation on guitar might have sounded like in the renaissance or baroque era. It's when there is an abrupt change of style leaning heavily on new-agey-sounding suspensions, etc. that such improvisations can be distracting. Best, Eugene I hope Massimo won't mind me including an example. Overall, he plays very beautifully and he adds strums, which, of course, are not in the original but which sound really appropriate and musical. And he uses some strange inegale at times too, which maybe what some people did or how he, as a musician, hears the music. (And in general, no doubt, all sorts of improvisation was used all over the place) What bothers me are these rather fay little vamps which he uses in a number of the dances. Here is an example: many people will know this little Branle de Champaigne. Ex1 is the opening - four bars of the little vamp figure and then the actual music. At the end of the Branle the vamp figure returns as a sort of interlude into a repeat (Ex2). It's a very attractive little dance and it's very short and the vamp makes it into something bigger. But it seems, to me anyway, really quite out of character. Surely an improvised second run through (or a written out 'plus diminueé') would surely be better. Or play a set of dances. Or just play it twice. opening (Ex1) http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/ex1.mp3 middle Ex2) http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/ex2.mp3 Stuart -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Chris Despopoulos Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 12:23 PM To: Eugene C. Braig IV; List LUTELIST; Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Having just attended classes on the Baroque Guitar at La Semana de Musica Antigua in Gijon, Spain... Eduardo Eguez pointed out that the Sanz manuscript is a book of ensenyanza... that is, you're learning the pieces. Most certainly, any player above the beginner level would have taken these as suggestions, and would have improvised on these themes. That was how I took Eduardo's message on that front, anyway. Yes, there's music that is composed to the fullest extent, but Sanz (at least) seems to have made illustrations more so than compositions, per se. It may be that most of the existing guitar works are intended to be taken with a similar grain of salt? (Still thinking about that...) I have noticed a relatively recent movement in terms of Baroque guitar performance that tends toward improvisation. Xavier Diaz Latorre does this wonderfully, I think. In the same festival I attended a series of classes on disminuacion and ornamentacion. Again, the idea was that melodic lines were meant to include the addition of passing phrases from one note to another, and/or ornamentation -- all at the discretion of the performer. In a word, improvisation. And again, I notice that players are achieving this today. Interestingly, we had another set of classes that covered a flame war between Monteverdi and Artusi, where Artusi complained that Monteverti's dissonances would be fine in the context of improvisation, but a serious composition should not have such things. Then back to the improvisation class where we saw an example of Monteverdi writing a series of disminuaciones and ornamentaciones in a singer's part -- to be performed exactly as written! Ostensibly, they were to "sound" improvised??? And of course, there's continuo, which is essentially structured improvisation. I think the bottom line is, there were lots of cases where improvisation was appropriate, and lots where it wasn't. In other words, um... er... Well, you know... cud __ From: Eugene C. Braig IV To: List LUTELIST ; Vihuelalist Sent: Fri, July 30, 2010 11:39:51 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Such improvised indulgences seem to me to find home amongst a greater proportion of 4- and 5-course guitarists (Lonardi, Lislevand, Ferries, etc.) than lutenists or players of modern classical or early 6-string guitars. I wonder why that is. Sometimes it sounds quite nice, but is sometimes a bit distracting. Eugene > -Original Message- > From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On > Behalf Of Stuart Walsh > Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 11:20 AM > To: Eugene C. Braig IV > Cc: 'List LUTELIST'; 'Vihuelalist' > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar > > Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: > > Craddock's recording is now s
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: Craddock's recording is now super-hard to find. I would love to have a copy, but can't seem to track one down at a reasonable price. Also look into: Lonardi, Massimo. 2006. Comiença la Musica para Guitarra. Stradivarius. Massimo plays very well indeed but for many of the little dances he adds a sort of intro/outro (and sometimes interlude) vamp. Listeners who didn't know the originals might have thought these (modern-sounding, folksy) vamps were in the original tablatures . I can see that he's trying to frame them and make them special but I've often thought of actually taking the trouble to edit them out. Stuart Marincola, Federico. 1994. Pieces pour Luth/Pieces pour Guitare. Disques Pierre Verany. Smith, Hopkinson. 1992. Alonso Mudarra: Tres Libros de Musica en Cifras Para Vihuela. Auvidis/Astrée. The former is all 4-course guitar and quite nice to my ears. The latter two features mostly lute or vihuela, but include a fair number of tasty guitar solos and are also quite nice. ...Not to mention Jocelyn's fine recent effort: http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/nelsonbartram. Even Anthony Rooley indulged in a little 4-course guitar on Renaissance Fantasias, but only a little. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Laura Maschi Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 11:05 PM To: Bruno Correia Cc: List LUTELIST Subject: [LUTE] Re: Four c. guitar Also check michael Craddock wonderful recording released around 2008... Enviado desde mi iPod El 29/07/2010, a las 23:40, Bruno Correia escribió: I think John Williams never read anything about the history of his own instrument. Check at 1:38. Couldn't believe he said that, specially after watching those great videos by Jocelyn Nelson. [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_LNU1-s4BE&feature=related -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_LNU1-s4BE&feature=related To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: 4-course guitar videos
Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: Dear list, My university recently posted a series of videos on You Tube. If you follow this link, you'll see that I have three up there with 4-course renaissance guitar, including "La seraphine." [1]http://www.youtube.com/user/ECU#g/c/69CB3D225AB4DC20 I'm glad to finally post something list members might enjoy, because I've enjoyed so many videos others on this list have posted. Best, Jocelyn Just been looking at the videos. It's great to hear them played properly! I know all of the pieces very well (apart from "La seraphine") - having tried to play them on monstrosities like an adapted baritone uke, a child's guitar etc, but also the Lute society's hire instrument. Stuart -- Jocelyn Nelson, DMA Teaching Assistant Professor Early Guitar, Music History 336 Fletcher Music Center School of Music East Carolina University 252.328.1255 office 252.328.6258 fax [2]nels...@ecu.edu -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/user/ECU#g/c/69CB3D225AB4DC20 2. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/nels...@ecu.edu To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Foscarini: Capriccio
Here's one of Monica's transcriptions/reconstructions of Foscarini. Decently played on a decent instrument, I'm sure it would make an attractive, calm, easy-going amble. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AasnlO4d9c Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Princess An's Lute Book
Monica Hall wrote: If anyone is still interested in this my article "Princess An's Lutebook and related English sources of music for the 5-course guitar" has now appeared in Also I have added a lot more pieces to my Foscarini project - this now includes 60 pieces, most of them from books 3 & 4. This is on my page at [2]www.earlyguitar.ning.com Comments on the latter and suggestions for improvements very welcome. Nice to have versions of the 'lute-style' pieces in E minor (pp28-31). Your page 37: Gagliarda la Passionata. I really like Lex's playing of this piece. Anyway, should bar 2 be M4? For me, the only 'issue' with this piece is bar 6-7 with chords moving in crotchets (all other crotchets are single notes). I suppose it just need lots of practice! Stuart Hope to do the whole book in due course. As ever Monica -- References 1. http://www.dolmetsch.com/ 2. http://www.earlyguitar.ning.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Princess An's Lute Book
If anyone is still interested in this my article "Princess An's Lutebook and related English sources of music for the 5-course guitar" has now appeared in Consort - journal of the Dolmetsch Foundation, Vol. 66, Summer 2010. Sounds interesting. does the article contain any of the music? You can get copies of this via their website - [1]www.dolmetsch.com . I think you can get offprints of individual articles if you don't want the whole journal. Also I have added a lot more pieces to my Foscarini project - this now includes 60 pieces, most of them from books 3 & 4. This is on my page at [2]www.earlyguitar.ning.com Comments on the latter and suggestions for improvements very welcome. Hope to do the whole book in due course. As ever A noble project!! Stuart Monica -- References 1. http://www.dolmetsch.com/ 2. http://www.earlyguitar.ning.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Corbetta
Monica Hall wrote: Don't know whether the rest of you have already noticed this but Carpe Diem have recently released a beautiful recording of music from Corbetta's 1671 Guitarre royale played by Rosario Conte - the best recording available now Antonio Ligios recording is no longer available. For some reason the first suite reminds me of a very old recording of Schaffer's on Baroque lute of a suite in G minor by Bittner. Someone said the recording is 'close' and you can hear fingers on strings - other than playing the notes! - and indeed the man himself breathing. (My wife thinks he looks like the actor, Patrick Stewart). He surely gets a very nice sound from the guitar and his brushing of chords is very delicate (some players are rather raspy) and lots of ornaments. The Prelude of this first suite is quite slow with familiar little phrases but Rosario gives his all. The Allemande has a little percussive sound at the beginning which happens at the repeat? Seems very well played to me. The Courante sounds fine to me too but I agree with others that the Sarabande is too slow. The Baroque lute can be played super slow (as it were) but I'm not sure this very slow tempo suits the guitar, or even this particular sarabande. A fine gigue (which is reminiscent of something else) and a swingless Passacaille to end. Stuart Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Corbetta
Monica Hall wrote: Don't know whether the rest of you have already noticed this but Carpe Diem have recently released a beautiful recording of music from Corbetta's 1671 Guitarre royale played by Rosario Conte - the best recording available now Antonio Ligios recording is no longer available. Monica -- I just looked on Amazon UK. Is it called "Une larme" with a rather fierce-looking chap on the CD cover who looks like he's going to bash you over the head with his Baroque guitar? Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: [VIHUELA]
'The Lute' 47 (2007) has just appeared, devoted to the five course guitar. Articles on tuning/stringing and notational matters, by Monica Hall and by yours truly. It will be available from the Lute Society webshop. rgds, Lex Fascinating reading. I'm enjoying all articles. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: some 19th century seven-string guitar pieces (OT/RT)
Roman An email I sent you bounced back after a few days. Stuart To add to further confusion: The PLATAN is Ukrainian (as well as Russian) for planetree, and it is certainly not any kind of maple (YAVIR in Ukrainian, KLJON in Russian). Botanical BS aside: I have expereimented with Stuart on the implementation of http://www.torban.org/images/odna/odna-ghora.pdf http://www.torban.org/images/odna/odna-ghora.mp3 on the Rooshian Geetar, and it worked exceedingly well! I will send a standard notation score to any interested 7string player. RT - Original Message - From: "Eugene C. Braig IV" To: "'Roman Turovsky'" ; "'vihuela list'" Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 3:38 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: some 19th century seven-string guitar pieces Odd. Here are some lute-distant periphera: I had always known of plane tree as an English term for trees of the same taxonomic grouping as North American sycamore (i.e., of the genus *Platanus*). All trees of the genus *Acer* are technically maples, although common names don't always reflect that (boxelder is another fine example). European or "great" maple is very often called "sycamore" and, as Alexander points out, is *Acer pseudoplatanus* (or, in other words, the "false-plane tree maple"). Further demonstrating the problems with common names, I believe "plane" is also sometimes applied to the maple *A. pseudoplatanus* in the UK because of superficially similar morphologies. *Platanus* spp. are usually associated with wet lowlands and stream banks where I don't believe *Acer pseudoplatanus* necessarily is. However, the latter species (i.e., the maple *A. pseudoplatanus*) is considered very tolerant of broad environmental conditions. So, depending upon where you are and with whom you are speaking, "plane tree" and "sycamore" can be applied somewhat interchangeably to *Acer pseudoplatanus* and in general to *Platanus* spp. in spite of the fact that those taxa aren't particularly closely related. Enjoy! Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Roman Turovsky Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 12:56 PM To: vihuela list Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: some 19th century seven-string guitar pieces My dictionary has maple as European, sycamore as Asian, and planetree as American.. WHichever it is - the tree in question has a large symbolic value, and there is even one Yavor Genov, a young Bulgarian lute-player! RT From: "Alexander Batov" Well, the botanical name for Ukrainian 'Явір' (the way it appears in the song title) is 'Acer pseudoplatanus' which is the same that is used to define 'Sycamore' or 'Sycamore Maple'. Acer pseudoplatanus is native both to central Europe (including Ukraine) and West Asia. So I suppose either of the two words (without getting excessively botanical :)) would be fine for this song title. I personally prefer Sycamore. AB On 18/04/2010 16:34, Roman Turovsky wrote: >> 2) "There stays a sycamore tree over the water" > European Maple rather. Sycamore is an Asia Minor variety. > RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini-Granata
Stuart Walsh wrote: That is fascinating! I haven't had time to look at the pieces closely but it doesn't surprise me. Most of the introduction to Granata's 1646 book has also been copied from Foscarini. And he accused Corbetta of plagiarism! But the pieces may not be by Foscarini either! Monica Here are the two corrente (Fosco and Granata) http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/FoscoGran.jpg (I hope I haven't made them too small). They are not the same - but very similar - especially when you play them. and here is the Foscarini 'sarabande' with the Granata 'pasacagli' http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/FoscoGran1.jpg Stuart Stuart ----- Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" To: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 8:12 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Foscarini-Granata I suppose this is well known, but it's news to me: A French chap on the EG&V ning site put up a scan of Granata (1659) a few days ago. It's got some re-entrant tunings at the end of the book and it has got the re-entrant tuning that Foscarini used, 'la cordatura diferente' (Fosco p.99). And it's got a couple of the same tunes too! This particular tuning in Granata (B-D-G-B-D) begins on page 88. The 'corrente' on page 90 in Granata is the very similar to the Foscarini 'corrente' (admittedly with some differences) and the very sultry sarabande in Foscarini, is here in Granata (p.92) a 'pasacgli'. Granata's 'pasacgli' is different in some ways but it's such a characterful piece that it is unmistakably the same material (including a particularly juicy chord) as Foscarini's 'sarabande'. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini-Granata
That is fascinating! I haven't had time to look at the pieces closely but it doesn't surprise me. Most of the introduction to Granata's 1646 book has also been copied from Foscarini. And he accused Corbetta of plagiarism! But the pieces may not be by Foscarini either! Monica Here are the two corrente (Fosco and Granata) http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/FoscoGran.jpg (I hope I haven't made them too small). They are not the same - but very similar - especially when you play them. Stuart - Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" To: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 8:12 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Foscarini-Granata I suppose this is well known, but it's news to me: A French chap on the EG&V ning site put up a scan of Granata (1659) a few days ago. It's got some re-entrant tunings at the end of the book and it has got the re-entrant tuning that Foscarini used, 'la cordatura diferente' (Fosco p.99). And it's got a couple of the same tunes too! This particular tuning in Granata (B-D-G-B-D) begins on page 88. The 'corrente' on page 90 in Granata is the very similar to the Foscarini 'corrente' (admittedly with some differences) and the very sultry sarabande in Foscarini, is here in Granata (p.92) a 'pasacgli'. Granata's 'pasacgli' is different in some ways but it's such a characterful piece that it is unmistakably the same material (including a particularly juicy chord) as Foscarini's 'sarabande'. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
