[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
Dear Eloy,
I'm very much with Monica on this: what little evidence we have (such
as Millioni) suggests a certain refinement in strumming (... in this
way the music will be rendered more sweetly.). And the iconography (
not much to go on I confess) seem to predominate with people playing in
quite a dignified posture as befitting their station.
I think the great danger is looking back and assuming a later style was
generally employed in earlier times. So that, for example, the exciting
cross rythms found in Murcia's Spanish dances (post-1700) with their
wonderful and intricate cross rythms and the like becomes a fertile
breeding ground for the modern imagination ('thrashing about') - but
not often, I suggest, to the advantage of the music itself.
Moulinie's fine collection of 1629 with some songs to the guitar is
often overlooked, being neither a Spanish or Italian source. But we
must recall that Francois XIII's wife Anne of Austria was a Spanish
infanta and introduced Spanish tastes to the French court. Moulinie
employed tablature in block chords since, presumably, so few in Paris
at the time were familar with alfabeto. But this is a benefit in
disguise allowing us to clearly see the strumming pattern he expected
with each chord - another useful guide to early 17th century guitar
performing practice. Incidentally he calls his 5 course instrument just
plain ' guitarre' without any Spanish qualifier..
regards
Martyn
--- On Mon, 19/12/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
To: Eloy Cruz eloyc...@gmail.com
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Monday, 19 December, 2011, 19:44
You are right - we know very little about how they actually strummed.
Millioni gives the following very brief description but he not giving
much
away..
These will give more pleasure if played with three or four fingers of
the
right hand, holding them separately one from another, sounding all the
strings together and playing close to the rose and the neck; in this
way
the music will be rendered more sweetly.
As far as the alfabeto songs are concerned there are a very small
number of
sources which do supply fully notated accompaniments. There are two
printed sources - the 1622 edition of Sanseverino's guitar book and a
collection of vocal pieces by Fasolo printed in 1627 and a few
manuscript
sources - notably I-Fc Ms. B 2556. All of these indicate that the
strumming patterns reflected the note values of the voice part. There
are
also pieces in the books of Colonna and Foscarini's 1629 book which
seem to
be song accompaniments although they don't include the words. These
also
have strumming patterns based on note values.
Not much to go on.
I do whether the people who performed these songs in the early 17th
century
would have gone in for flamenco style strumming. They were not
peasants or
little people and they might have regarded it as beneath their
dignity to
imitate what the lower orders did.
Monica
- Original Message -
From: Eloy Cruz [1]eloyc...@gmail.com
To: Vihuela List [2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 4:47 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
Dear List
Although the subject of this thread is labeled Strumming as basso
continuo, the exchange of different list members has to do with how
to
conduct or organize the harmony in the fingerboard, not at all with
strumming.
I think the 2 main features of guitarra espanola de cinco ordenes are
on
one
hand (left), its peculiar harmonic language -all these inversions-
and an
apparently limited palette. On the other (right) hand, and much more
characteristically, strumming.
When dealing with an alfabeto piece (a solo or a song) the problem of
harmony is solved by the alfabeto itself (inconsistencies aside). If
the
player wants to give some different colors to harmony, he can use
alternative higher chord positions (using Sanz's Laberintos, for
example).
But rasgueado is an entirely different matter. The alfabeto notation
gives
not one single clue on how to realize it. Most of the time you won't
even
find indicators of up or down strokes. I know of not one single set
of
original instructions on how to make it -do someone in the list know
something about it? We know about trillo, picco and repicco, and
little
more, but I think the basic thing about strumming is precisely,
strumming.
The old ones are clear about this. Sanz: Hagase cuenta que la mano
derecha
que toca la Guitarra es el Maestro de Capilla que lleva el compas, y
los
dedos de la mano izquierda son los instrumentos y
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
I just found this -- a thesis by Natasha Frances Miles submitted to the
University of Birmingham. Time permitting, I intend to give it a
read. I can't imagine the guitar didn't enjoy certain burlesque
qualities from time to time, and I can't imagine the young upstarts in
court would have been able to resist... Calls for order, sweetness,
and dignity notwithstanding. This paper might touch on that.
The Baroque Guitar as an Accompaniment Instrument
for Song, Dance and Theatre
http://etheses.bham.ac.uk/1600/1/Miles11MPhil.pdf
cud
__
From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Eloy Cruz eloyc...@gmail.com
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 4:41 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
Dear Eloy,
I'm very much with Monica on this: what little evidence we have (such
as Millioni) suggests a certain refinement in strumming (... in this
way the music will be rendered more sweetly.). And the iconography
(
not much to go on I confess) seem to predominate with people playing
in
quite a dignified posture as befitting their station.
I think the great danger is looking back and assuming a later style
was
generally employed in earlier times. So that, for example, the
exciting
cross rythms found in Murcia's Spanish dances (post-1700) with their
wonderful and intricate cross rythms and the like becomes a fertile
breeding ground for the modern imagination ('thrashing about') - but
not often, I suggest, to the advantage of the music itself.
Moulinie's fine collection of 1629 with some songs to the guitar is
often overlooked, being neither a Spanish or Italian source. But we
must recall that Francois XIII's wife Anne of Austria was a Spanish
infanta and introduced Spanish tastes to the French court. Moulinie
employed tablature in block chords since, presumably, so few in Paris
at the time were familar with alfabeto. But this is a benefit in
disguise allowing us to clearly see the strumming pattern he expected
with each chord - another useful guide to early 17th century guitar
performing practice. Incidentally he calls his 5 course instrument
just
plain ' guitarre' without any Spanish qualifier..
regards
Martyn
--- On Mon, 19/12/11, Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
From: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
To: Eloy Cruz [3]eloyc...@gmail.com
Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Monday, 19 December, 2011, 19:44
You are right - we know very little about how they actually strummed.
Millioni gives the following very brief description but he not giving
much
away..
These will give more pleasure if played with three or four fingers
of
the
right hand, holding them separately one from another, sounding all
the
strings together and playing close to the rose and the neck; in this
way
the music will be rendered more sweetly.
As far as the alfabeto songs are concerned there are a very small
number of
sources which do supply fully notated accompaniments. There are two
printed sources - the 1622 edition of Sanseverino's guitar book and a
collection of vocal pieces by Fasolo printed in 1627 and a few
manuscript
sources - notably I-Fc Ms. B 2556. All of these indicate that the
strumming patterns reflected the note values of the voice part.
There
are
also pieces in the books of Colonna and Foscarini's 1629 book which
seem to
be song accompaniments although they don't include the words. These
also
have strumming patterns based on note values.
Not much to go on.
I do whether the people who performed these songs in the early 17th
century
would have gone in for flamenco style strumming. They were not
peasants or
little people and they might have regarded it as beneath their
dignity to
imitate what the lower orders did.
Monica
- Original Message -
From: Eloy Cruz [1][5]eloyc...@gmail.com
To: Vihuela List [2][6]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 4:47 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
Dear List
Although the subject of this thread is labeled Strumming as basso
continuo, the exchange of different list members has to do with
how
to
conduct or organize the harmony in the fingerboard, not at all with
strumming.
I think the 2 main features of guitarra espanola de cinco ordenes
are
on
one
hand (left), its peculiar harmonic language -all these inversions-
and an
apparently limited palette. On the other
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
You need to be aware that it is only a Masters dissertation and is rather
basic and not always accurate. She refers to Carre as Le Carre
throughout - possibly mixing him up with John Le Carre writer of spy
stories!
She is now doing a PHD on a similar subject which should be more scholarly.
Monica
- Original Message -
From: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 2:17 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
I just found this -- a thesis by Natasha Frances Miles submitted to the
University of Birmingham. Time permitting, I intend to give it a
read. I can't imagine the guitar didn't enjoy certain burlesque
qualities from time to time, and I can't imagine the young upstarts in
court would have been able to resist... Calls for order, sweetness,
and dignity notwithstanding. This paper might touch on that.
The Baroque Guitar as an Accompaniment Instrument
for Song, Dance and Theatre
http://etheses.bham.ac.uk/1600/1/Miles11MPhil.pdf
cud
__
From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Eloy Cruz eloyc...@gmail.com
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 4:41 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
Dear Eloy,
I'm very much with Monica on this: what little evidence we have (such
as Millioni) suggests a certain refinement in strumming (... in this
way the music will be rendered more sweetly.). And the iconography
(
not much to go on I confess) seem to predominate with people playing
in
quite a dignified posture as befitting their station.
I think the great danger is looking back and assuming a later style
was
generally employed in earlier times. So that, for example, the
exciting
cross rythms found in Murcia's Spanish dances (post-1700) with their
wonderful and intricate cross rythms and the like becomes a fertile
breeding ground for the modern imagination ('thrashing about') - but
not often, I suggest, to the advantage of the music itself.
Moulinie's fine collection of 1629 with some songs to the guitar is
often overlooked, being neither a Spanish or Italian source. But we
must recall that Francois XIII's wife Anne of Austria was a Spanish
infanta and introduced Spanish tastes to the French court. Moulinie
employed tablature in block chords since, presumably, so few in Paris
at the time were familar with alfabeto. But this is a benefit in
disguise allowing us to clearly see the strumming pattern he expected
with each chord - another useful guide to early 17th century guitar
performing practice. Incidentally he calls his 5 course instrument
just
plain ' guitarre' without any Spanish qualifier..
regards
Martyn
--- On Mon, 19/12/11, Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
From: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
To: Eloy Cruz [3]eloyc...@gmail.com
Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Monday, 19 December, 2011, 19:44
You are right - we know very little about how they actually strummed.
Millioni gives the following very brief description but he not giving
much
away..
These will give more pleasure if played with three or four fingers
of
the
right hand, holding them separately one from another, sounding all
the
strings together and playing close to the rose and the neck; in this
way
the music will be rendered more sweetly.
As far as the alfabeto songs are concerned there are a very small
number of
sources which do supply fully notated accompaniments. There are two
printed sources - the 1622 edition of Sanseverino's guitar book and a
collection of vocal pieces by Fasolo printed in 1627 and a few
manuscript
sources - notably I-Fc Ms. B 2556. All of these indicate that the
strumming patterns reflected the note values of the voice part.
There
are
also pieces in the books of Colonna and Foscarini's 1629 book which
seem to
be song accompaniments although they don't include the words. These
also
have strumming patterns based on note values.
Not much to go on.
I do whether the people who performed these songs in the early 17th
century
would have gone in for flamenco style strumming. They were not
peasants or
little people and they might have regarded it as beneath their
dignity to
imitate what the lower orders did.
Monica
- Original Message -
From: Eloy Cruz [1][5]eloyc...@gmail.com
To: Vihuela List [2][6]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 4:47 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
Dear List
Although the subject of this thread
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
On Tue, 20 Dec 2011 06:17:42 -0800 (PST), Chris Despopoulos wrote I just found this -- a thesis by Natasha Frances Miles submitted to the University of Birmingham. Time permitting, I intend to give it a read. I can't imagine the guitar didn't enjoy certain burlesque qualities from time to time, and I can't imagine the young upstarts in court would have been able to resist... Calls for order, sweetness, and dignity notwithstanding. This paper might touch on that. The Baroque Guitar as an Accompaniment Instrument for Song, Dance and Theatre http://etheses.bham.ac.uk/1600/1/Miles11MPhil.pdf cud Gosh - just from the abstract: The five-course baroque guitar was regularly employed in the accompaniment of song and dance, and did so predominantly in the rasgueado style, a strummed practice unique to the instrument. Contemporary critics condemned rasgueado as crude and unrefined, and the guitar incited further scorn for its regular use in accompanying the ill-reputed dances of the lower classes. Happy reading, Ralf Mattes To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
Thanks for this Chris,
I'd not noticed it before but see that it's very recent so maybe I've
not checked for a bit. Neither do I know of Natasha Miles who wrote it
as her M. Phil dissertation (University of Birmingham).
I wish she hadn't used the word 'rasguedo' (in the opening abstract) as
I think it assumes some sort of direct historical link between modern
flamenco practice and earlier modes of strumming. However I'll read
the full thing in due course. Let us know if you come accross anything
new and directly relevant to the performance of alfabeto strumming
c.1600.
regards
Martyn
--- On Tue, 20/12/11, Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
wrote:
From: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Tuesday, 20 December, 2011, 14:17
I just found this -- a thesis by Natasha Frances Miles submitted to
the
University of Birmingham. Time permitting, I intend to give it a
read. I can't imagine the guitar didn't enjoy certain burlesque
qualities from time to time, and I can't imagine the young upstarts
in
court would have been able to resist... Calls for order, sweetness,
and dignity notwithstanding. This paper might touch on that.
The Baroque Guitar as an Accompaniment Instrument
for Song, Dance and Theatre
[1]http://etheses.bham.ac.uk/1600/1/Miles11MPhil.pdf
cud
__
From: Martyn Hodgson [2]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Eloy Cruz [3]eloyc...@gmail.com
Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 4:41 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
Dear Eloy,
I'm very much with Monica on this: what little evidence we have
(such
as Millioni) suggests a certain refinement in strumming (... in
this
way the music will be rendered more sweetly.). And the
iconography
(
not much to go on I confess) seem to predominate with people
playing
in
quite a dignified posture as befitting their station.
I think the great danger is looking back and assuming a later
style
was
generally employed in earlier times. So that, for example, the
exciting
cross rythms found in Murcia's Spanish dances (post-1700) with
their
wonderful and intricate cross rythms and the like becomes a
fertile
breeding ground for the modern imagination ('thrashing about') -
but
not often, I suggest, to the advantage of the music itself.
Moulinie's fine collection of 1629 with some songs to the guitar
is
often overlooked, being neither a Spanish or Italian source. But
we
must recall that Francois XIII's wife Anne of Austria was a
Spanish
infanta and introduced Spanish tastes to the French court.
Moulinie
employed tablature in block chords since, presumably, so few in
Paris
at the time were familar with alfabeto. But this is a benefit in
disguise allowing us to clearly see the strumming pattern he
expected
with each chord - another useful guide to early 17th century
guitar
performing practice. Incidentally he calls his 5 course instrument
just
plain ' guitarre' without any Spanish qualifier..
regards
Martyn
--- On Mon, 19/12/11, Monica Hall [1][5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
wrote:
From: Monica Hall [2][6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
To: Eloy Cruz [3][7]eloyc...@gmail.com
Cc: Vihuelalist [4][8]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Monday, 19 December, 2011, 19:44
You are right - we know very little about how they actually
strummed.
Millioni gives the following very brief description but he not
giving
much
away..
These will give more pleasure if played with three or four
fingers
of
the
right hand, holding them separately one from another, sounding all
the
strings together and playing close to the rose and the neck; in
this
way
the music will be rendered more sweetly.
As far as the alfabeto songs are concerned there are a very small
number of
sources which do supply fully notated accompaniments. There are
two
printed sources - the 1622 edition of Sanseverino's guitar book
and a
collection of vocal pieces by Fasolo printed in 1627 and a few
manuscript
sources - notably I-Fc Ms. B 2556. All of these indicate that
the
strumming patterns reflected the note values of the voice part.
There
are
also pieces in the books of Colonna
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
It seems that even Murcia wasn't all that keen on the antics of those whom
he refers to as punchers or acorn pickers who try to stimilate the senses
by hitting the guitar.
It is interesting that the pieces in the earlier manuscript Cifras
selectas don't include the opening strummed variations. Elsewhere what he
says suggests that he wouldn't have been happy with the way in which his
music is performed today - with massed guitars and percussion. Even if
there are crossed rhythms it doesn't mean that the pieces have to be jazzed.
Another interesting French source is the Tablature de guittarre fait Par
monsieur Du pille dated 1649.
A lot of the pieces have words only with the
mainly strummed accompaniments in French tab showing the direction of the
strumming.
The French probably didn't need to qualify the Guitar as Spanish because
they didn't call the lute a chitarra. Different linguistics. Amat,
Sanz, Ribayaz and Guerau and Nassarre all refer to the instrument as the
guitarra
espanola.
Regards
Monica
- Original Message -
From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Eloy Cruz eloyc...@gmail.com
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 9:41 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
Dear Eloy,
I'm very much with Monica on this: what little evidence we have (such
as Millioni) suggests a certain refinement in strumming (... in this
way the music will be rendered more sweetly.). And the iconography (
not much to go on I confess) seem to predominate with people playing in
quite a dignified posture as befitting their station.
I think the great danger is looking back and assuming a later style was
generally employed in earlier times. So that, for example, the exciting
cross rythms found in Murcia's Spanish dances (post-1700) with their
wonderful and intricate cross rythms and the like becomes a fertile
breeding ground for the modern imagination ('thrashing about') - but
not often, I suggest, to the advantage of the music itself.
Moulinie's fine collection of 1629 with some songs to the guitar is
often overlooked, being neither a Spanish or Italian source. But we
must recall that Francois XIII's wife Anne of Austria was a Spanish
infanta and introduced Spanish tastes to the French court. Moulinie
employed tablature in block chords since, presumably, so few in Paris
at the time were familar with alfabeto. But this is a benefit in
disguise allowing us to clearly see the strumming pattern he expected
with each chord - another useful guide to early 17th century guitar
performing practice. Incidentally he calls his 5 course instrument just
plain ' guitarre' without any Spanish qualifier..
regards
Martyn
--- On Mon, 19/12/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
To: Eloy Cruz eloyc...@gmail.com
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Monday, 19 December, 2011, 19:44
You are right - we know very little about how they actually strummed.
Millioni gives the following very brief description but he not giving
much
away..
These will give more pleasure if played with three or four fingers of
the
right hand, holding them separately one from another, sounding all the
strings together and playing close to the rose and the neck; in this
way
the music will be rendered more sweetly.
As far as the alfabeto songs are concerned there are a very small
number of
sources which do supply fully notated accompaniments. There are two
printed sources - the 1622 edition of Sanseverino's guitar book and a
collection of vocal pieces by Fasolo printed in 1627 and a few
manuscript
sources - notably I-Fc Ms. B 2556. All of these indicate that the
strumming patterns reflected the note values of the voice part. There
are
also pieces in the books of Colonna and Foscarini's 1629 book which
seem to
be song accompaniments although they don't include the words. These
also
have strumming patterns based on note values.
Not much to go on.
I do whether the people who performed these songs in the early 17th
century
would have gone in for flamenco style strumming. They were not
peasants or
little people and they might have regarded it as beneath their
dignity to
imitate what the lower orders did.
Monica
- Original Message -
From: Eloy Cruz [1]eloyc...@gmail.com
To: Vihuela List [2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 4:47 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
Dear List
Although the subject of this thread is labeled Strumming as basso
continuo, the exchange of different list members has to do with how
to
conduct or organize the harmony in the fingerboard, not at all with
strumming.
I think the 2 main features of guitarra espanola de cinco ordenes
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
As a relative newcomer to early music (less than a decade), I want to second this point. The right hand is quite important. When teaching guitar to youngsters I try to explain that the right hand is far more important than the left. To illustrate, I play lots of left-hand notes and chords with a mechanical right hand, and then play a single note or chord with a musical right hand... Then ask them, which is a song? It's unfortunate indeed that there is so little guidance in this regard. Not just for technique, but for musicality. I know there's a lot of deprecation toward thrashing about on the guitar. But where does reasonable expression end and thrashing begin? How much of modern techniques such as Flamenco, chitarra battente, or the wide range of Latin American techniques echo early practice? How much have these techniques suffered genetic drift? Has strumming the guitar drifted as far afield as the catholic sects of Northern New Mexico drifted from the dictates of the church? Can we discern original sensibilities in what survives today? Oh, how I wish I would win the lottery, and quit work! cud __ From: Eloy Cruz eloyc...@gmail.com To: Vihuela List vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 11:47 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo Dear List Although the subject of this thread is labeled Strumming as basso continuo, the exchange of different list members has to do with how to conduct or organize the harmony in the fingerboard, not at all with strumming. I think the 2 main features of guitarra espanola de cinco ordenes are on one hand (left), its peculiar harmonic language -all these inversions- and an apparently limited palette. On the other (right) hand, and much more characteristically, strumming. When dealing with an alfabeto piece (a solo or a song) the problem of harmony is solved by the alfabeto itself (inconsistencies aside). If the player wants to give some different colors to harmony, he can use alternative higher chord positions (using Sanz's Laberintos, for example). But rasgueado is an entirely different matter. The alfabeto notation gives not one single clue on how to realize it. Most of the time you won't even find indicators of up or down strokes. I know of not one single set of original instructions on how to make it -do someone in the list know something about it? We know about trillo, picco and repicco, and little more, but I think the basic thing about strumming is precisely, strumming. The old ones are clear about this. Sanz: Hagase cuenta que la mano derecha que toca la Guitarra es el Maestro de Capilla que lleva el compas, y los dedos de la mano izquierda son los instrumentos y voces que rige y gobierna por ella. The right hand is the chapel master that rules and conducts the instruments and voices, represented by the left hand fingers. I think strumming itself is a powerful tool to make clear the rhetoric of a piece, particularly a song. I think the main job of a guitar player accompanying a singer, or himself, is to shape harmony with the right hand. As someone put it, to illuminate the text from within. The old ones don't give detailed instructions about strumming because, in my opinion, strumming is an elusive art and science. It's something you learn by playing along with your teacher or with the community. Witness the master strummers of Latin American guitars -each instrument has its own complex and unique strumming language- some of these players have an outstanding level of performance and are as virtuosos in their field as any classic guitar player. They make what many old Spanish sources say: hacen hablar a la guitarra, they make the guitar speak. Regards eloy To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
Many thanks for this Stewart. It is very interesting as it covers areas with which I am not particularly familiar. Aside from that and in response to what you said as follows Whether or not you think these accompaniments may be described as continuo is a moot point. My view is that they are all continuo parts. It is really just a matter of what you call these things. I think (as far as I remember) the point I was trying to make was that alfabeto accompaniments do not include the bass part in any shape or form and strictly speaking realizing a bass line which is often referred to as accompanying a part does involve including the bass line. This may be splitting hairs but I think it is still an important difference. Monica - Original Message - From: Stewart McCoy lu...@tiscali.co.uk To: Vihuela List vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 10:31 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Strumming as basso continuo Dear Monica, Allison's _Psalmes_ are printed as a table book, similar to the books of lute songs by John Dowland and others. The Cittern parts are in French tablature, and are written upside down on the page above the Cantus and Lute music. The next page has the Altus upside down, the Bassus sideways on, and the Tenor the right way up. If the cittern player were looking at this book, he would find it difficult to read the other parts, apart from the Altus. In his introduction to the Scolar Press facsimile edition, Ian Harwood writes: There are a good many discrepancies in Allison's book, mainly between lute and cittern, which are too numerous to list here. Sometimes one finds a major-minor clash, which can usually be resolved by reference to the voice-parts. At other times, the cittern may have a chord using the note of the Bassus part as a root position, when in fact it is a first inversion. Both kinds of error, not infrequently found also in instrumental broken consort music, suggest that the cittern part was built up from the Bassus, without much reference to the other voices. Much of this duplicates what you were saying about alfabeto chords for the guitar. The chords for the guitar and the cittern must have been created from the bass line, but without reference to anything else. Some English viol manuscripts have extra part-books for the theorbo. These theorbo bass lines are unfigured, inviting the same sort of discrepancies we have seen with the cittern and the baroque guitar. With all of these instruments you would stumble along when playing the music for the first time, but thereafter you would hopefully remember the gruesome major-minor clashes, and get it right next time. Some of the 6/3-5/3 clashes would not matter so much, particularly chord IV (CEG) and chord IIb (CEA), which together produce what could be an acceptable II7b (CEGA). Whether or not you think these accompaniments may be described as continuo is a moot point. My view is that they are all continuo parts. After all, a theorbo man reading a figured bass (which may or may not have appropriate figures for every note) and interpreting those figures as best he can, is no different from a theorbo man reading an unfigured bass and using the Rule of the Octave to achieve the same result. The guitar continuo is realised in the form of alfabeto, and the cittern continuo in French lute tablature, presumably for people who were unable to realise a figured or unfigured bass line themselves. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Monica Hall Sent: 18 December 2011 21:40 To: Stewart McCoy Cc: Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo That's interesting - but surely a competant cittern player would not play them as writen but would correct them? The point I was making is that - yes - the chords have been derived from the bass line but they are wrong because they do not take into account the voice part as well. They do not observe the rules for accompanying a bass line. You wouldn't play what is written and there is indeed some evidence that guitarists were savvy enough to correct blatant errors. Monica - Original Message - From: Stewart McCoy lu...@tiscali.co.uk To: Vihuela List vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 9:31 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Strumming as basso continuo Dear Monica, A similar thing occurs with the cittern parts of Richard Allison's _Psalmes of David in Meter_ (London, 1599). They would have been derived from the bass line, but it would have been an unfigured bass, so major/minor and 6/3-5/3 discrepancies would have been inevitable. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
You are right - we know very little about how they actually strummed. Millioni gives the following very brief description but he not giving much away.. These will give more pleasure if played with three or four fingers of the right hand, holding them separately one from another, sounding all the strings together and playing close to the rose and the neck; in this way the music will be rendered more sweetly. As far as the alfabeto songs are concerned there are a very small number of sources which do supply fully notated accompaniments. There are two printed sources - the 1622 edition of Sanseverino's guitar book and a collection of vocal pieces by Fasolo printed in 1627 and a few manuscript sources - notably I-Fc Ms. B 2556. All of these indicate that the strumming patterns reflected the note values of the voice part. There are also pieces in the books of Colonna and Foscarini's 1629 book which seem to be song accompaniments although they don't include the words. These also have strumming patterns based on note values. Not much to go on. I do whether the people who performed these songs in the early 17th century would have gone in for flamenco style strumming. They were not peasants or little people and they might have regarded it as beneath their dignity to imitate what the lower orders did. Monica - Original Message - From: Eloy Cruz eloyc...@gmail.com To: Vihuela List vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 4:47 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo Dear List Although the subject of this thread is labeled Strumming as basso continuo, the exchange of different list members has to do with how to conduct or organize the harmony in the fingerboard, not at all with strumming. I think the 2 main features of guitarra española de cinco órdenes are on one hand (left), its peculiar harmonic language -all these inversions- and an apparently limited palette. On the other (right) hand, and much more characteristically, strumming. When dealing with an alfabeto piece (a solo or a song) the problem of harmony is solved by the alfabeto itself (inconsistencies aside). If the player wants to give some different colors to harmony, he can use alternative higher chord positions (using Sanz´s Laberintos, for example). But rasgueado is an entirely different matter. The alfabeto notation gives not one single clue on how to realize it. Most of the time you won't even find indicators of up or down strokes. I know of not one single set of original instructions on how to make it -do someone in the list know something about it? We know about trillo, picco and repicco, and little more, but I think the basic thing about strumming is precisely, strumming. The old ones are clear about this. Sanz: Hágase cuenta que la mano derecha que toca la Guitarra es el Maestro de Capilla que lleva el compás, y los dedos de la mano izquierda son los instrumentos y voces que rige y gobierna por ella. The right hand is the chapel master that rules and conducts the instruments and voices, represented by the left hand fingers. I think strumming itself is a powerful tool to make clear the rhetoric of a piece, particularly a song. I think the main job of a guitar player accompanying a singer, or himself, is to shape harmony with the right hand. As someone put it, to illuminate the text from within. The old ones don't give detailed instructions about strumming because, in my opinion, strumming is an elusive art and science. It's something you learn by playing along with your teacher or with the community. Witness the master strummers of Latin American guitars -each instrument has its own complex and unique strumming language- some of these players have an outstanding level of performance and are as virtuosos in their field as any classic guitar player. They make what many old Spanish sources say: hacen hablar a la guitarra, they make the guitar speak. Regards eloy To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Dear Martyn, I understand that there is a problem with the theorbo in A, in Caccini's 'Reggami.' According to Alessandro Striggio the elder Caccini could accompany from a bass on the lute and harpsichord. So, what would be the right instrument/tuning for this song? Lex Other types of specific examples include Caccini's 'Reggami per pieta' where the singer has a low F# which has to be played by the BC an octave higher since there are necessary low F naturals elsewhere in the piece. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Well - what I actually said was
In theory the harmonies - at least in the printed books - are derived from
the bass line but they are not informed by the practice of bajo continuo.
There is some evidence that guitarists were indeed smart enough to spot some
of the obvious errors in the printed sources. In his dissertation Adrian
O'Donnell has given some examples of manuscript versions which seem to have
been copied from printed sources but where obviously duff chords have been
changed.
Monica
- Original Message -
From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 1:41 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier
question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Dear Chris,
I note Monica's comment below about the incorrect alfabeto chords being
used but I think it incorrect to suggest that the alfabeto
accompaniment was never informed by the harmonies implied by the bass
line (but they are not informed by the practice of bajo
continuo).
To take but one example, Marini's collection of 1622 (eg Il Verno and
many others) certainly responds to the harmonies required by
inversions. I suspect the duff chords found in some other sources are
more to do with the ignorance of the editorial hacks who put alfabeto
to the songs rather than, say, any inherent stylistic guitar trait.
It's analogous to basso continuo figuring where, especially in early
sources, the figuring can be very bare. No doubt this was sometimes
played as found but a reasonably accomplished BC player has no trouble
adding in figures to an unfigured, or partially, or incorrectly figured
bass. I presume, as Monica does, that a reasonably competant guitar
player would soon be able to recognise first inversions and the like.
I think you're right, it is entirely credible that alfabeto
accompaniment was derived from a basso continuo line if that was
present (or just the melodic line if only that was). Of course, as
already pointed out, the converse is not the case.
regards
Martyn
--- On Sun, 18/12/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Sunday, 18 December, 2011, 12:37
Monica, you're absolutely right that by definition it's not
continuous
bass when playing derived harmonies in the alfabeto. I was only
supposing that the harmonies are derived from the bass, and
informed by
practice of bajo continuo. In that sense, it's a realization of
something, at any rate.
In theory the harmonies - at least in the printed books - are derived
from the bass line but they are not informed by the practice of bajo
continuo. In many cases whoever added the alfabeto has simply added
these on the assumption that the note in the bass part is the root of
the chord without taking into account the voice part which clearly
indicates that a 6/3 chord is necessary rather than a 5/3. In some
instances they add major chords when there should be minor ones. And
they also ignore the basic rule - that when the bass rises a semitone -
mi-fa - the note on mi should be a 6/3. Usually 4-3 suspensions are
ignored.
And following on what I've read by Craig
Russell, it's possible to imagine that the guitar, limits, quirks,
and
all, contributed to the development of harmonic thinking in this
way.
I think it contributed in a different way. Guitarists themselves -
rather than the editors who added the alfabeto to printed books - were
aware that chords were derived from major and minor triads and the
notes in the triad could be played in any order. They were also more
aware of major and minor modality.
Regards
Monica
__
From: Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
To: Martyn Hodgson [2]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist [3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Lex Eisenhardt
[4]eisenha...@planet.nl
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2011 7:32 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
That is all perfectly clear - but has absolutely nothing to do with
playing
an alfabeto accompaniment - because the guitar is not going to try
and
reproduce the bass part in any way.
You seem to be me to be confusing two unrelated sets of
circumstances.
Monica
- Original Message -
From: Martyn Hodgson [1][5]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Lex Eisenhardt [2][6]eisenha...@planet.nl
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
That's interesting - but surely a competant cittern player
would not play them as writen but would correct them?
The point I was
making is that - yes - the chords have been derived from the bass line but
they are wrong because they do not take into account the voice part as well.
They do not observe the rules for accompanying a bass line. You wouldn't
play what is written and there is indeed some evidence that guitarists were
savvy enough to correct blatant errors.
Monica
- Original Message -
From: Stewart McCoy lu...@tiscali.co.uk
To: Vihuela List vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 9:31 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Strumming as basso continuo
Dear Monica,
A similar thing occurs with the cittern parts of Richard Allison's
_Psalmes of David in Meter_ (London, 1599). They would have been derived
from the bass line, but it would have been an unfigured bass, so
major/minor and 6/3-5/3 discrepancies would have been inevitable.
Best wishes,
Stewart McCoy.
-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Monica Hall
Sent: 18 December 2011 12:37
To: Chris Despopoulos
Cc: Vihuelalist
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Monica, you're absolutely right that by definition it's not
continuous
bass when playing derived harmonies in the alfabeto. I was only
supposing that the harmonies are derived from the bass, and informed
by
practice of bajo continuo. In that sense, it's a realization of
something, at any rate.
In theory the harmonies - at least in the printed books - are derived
from
the bass line but they are not informed by the practice of bajo
continuo.
In many cases whoever added the alfabeto has simply added these on the
assumption that the note in the bass part is the root of the chord
without
taking into account the voice part which clearly indicates that a 6/3
chord
is necessary rather than a 5/3. In some instances they add major chords
when there should be minor ones. And they also ignore the basic rule -
that
when the bass rises a semitone - mi-fa - the note on mi should be a
6/3.
Usually 4-3 suspensions are ignored.
And following on what I've read by Craig
Russell, it's possible to imagine that the guitar, limits, quirks,
and
all, contributed to the development of harmonic thinking in this
way.
I think it contributed in a different way. Guitarists themselves -
rather
than the editors who added the alfabeto to printed books - were aware
that
chords were derived from major and minor triads and the notes in the
triad
could be played in any order. They were also more aware of major and
minor
modality.
Regards
Monica
__
From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Lex Eisenhardt
eisenha...@planet.nl
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2011 7:32 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
That is all perfectly clear - but has absolutely nothing to do with
playing
an alfabeto accompaniment - because the guitar is not going to try
and
reproduce the bass part in any way.
You seem to be me to be confusing two unrelated sets of
circumstances.
Monica
- Original Message -
From: Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Lex Eisenhardt [2]eisenha...@planet.nl
Cc: Vihuelalist [3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2011 11:47 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier
question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Dear Lex,
A particular commonly occurring situation requiring the bass line
to
be
realised on the theorbo higher than the upper melodic line is
where
the
tenor sings a notated e' (ie that on the lowest line of treble
clef)
but sounding an octave lower (ie the e in the bass clef) and the
BC
line has a low G# 6 (ie on bottom line of bass clef). If G
natural
is
also frequently required in the piece (as often found) then on
a theorbo in A (with 6 fingered courses as most usual
historically)
there is no low G# and the player is obliged to take the bass an
octave
higher - ie top space of the bass clef and thus higher than the
singer's note. The situation is much the same where the tenor has
a
d
and the theorbo BC is obliged to take a f# in the bass.
Other types of specific examples include Caccini's 'Reggami per
pieta'
where the singer has a low F# which has to be played by the BC an
octave higher since there are necessary low F naturals elsewhere
in
the
piece.
Chromatic notes are solved in the same way: by putting odd notes
(or
even an entire
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
Dear List Although the subject of this thread is labeled Strumming as basso continuo, the exchange of different list members has to do with how to conduct or organize the harmony in the fingerboard, not at all with strumming. I think the 2 main features of guitarra española de cinco órdenes are on one hand (left), its peculiar harmonic language -all these inversions- and an apparently limited palette. On the other (right) hand, and much more characteristically, strumming. When dealing with an alfabeto piece (a solo or a song) the problem of harmony is solved by the alfabeto itself (inconsistencies aside). If the player wants to give some different colors to harmony, he can use alternative higher chord positions (using Sanz´s Laberintos, for example). But rasgueado is an entirely different matter. The alfabeto notation gives not one single clue on how to realize it. Most of the time you won't even find indicators of up or down strokes. I know of not one single set of original instructions on how to make it -do someone in the list know something about it? We know about trillo, picco and repicco, and little more, but I think the basic thing about strumming is precisely, strumming. The old ones are clear about this. Sanz: Hágase cuenta que la mano derecha que toca la Guitarra es el Maestro de Capilla que lleva el compás, y los dedos de la mano izquierda son los instrumentos y voces que rige y gobierna por ella. The right hand is the chapel master that rules and conducts the instruments and voices, represented by the left hand fingers. I think strumming itself is a powerful tool to make clear the rhetoric of a piece, particularly a song. I think the main job of a guitar player accompanying a singer, or himself, is to shape harmony with the right hand. As someone put it, to illuminate the text from within. The old ones don't give detailed instructions about strumming because, in my opinion, strumming is an elusive art and science. It's something you learn by playing along with your teacher or with the community. Witness the master strummers of Latin American guitars -each instrument has its own complex and unique strumming language- some of these players have an outstanding level of performance and are as virtuosos in their field as any classic guitar player. They make what many old Spanish sources say: hacen hablar a la guitarra, they make the guitar speak. Regards eloy To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Thanks Monica,
But I still don't see, and you don't explain, how other changes (such
as raising the bass an octave in a theorbo realisation) differs
substantially from doing the same sort of thing on the guitar
As said, maybe we just have to agree to disagree..
rgds
Martyn
--- On Fri, 16/12/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu, Chris Despopoulos
despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
Date: Friday, 16 December, 2011, 18:05
- Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson
[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Chris Despopoulos [2]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
Cc: Vihuelalist [3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 2:17 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Thanks Chris.
Your observation that '...whether we call it bajo continuo per se,
it's consistent in my mind to consider alfabeto a realization
(stylized, perhaps) of the bass..', certainly coincides with my
view on
guitar basso continuo using alfabeto. And, it seems to me, reflects
Marini's position too.
Sorry - but I think that you are both mistaken. You seem to be trying
to argue that any form of accompaniment can be regarded as realizing a
bass line. Interpreting terminology and practice in this way is
meaningless.
A basso continuo is what is says it is - a continuous, clearly
identifiable bass line from which the accompaning intervals (rather
than triads) are calculated. Occasionally, as you say the notes, which
appear in the bass part may not always be reproduced exactly for
practical reasons, but there is always a clear bass part - not one
concealed or implied incidentally in a series of major and minor
triads.
It is probably true that because the baroque guitarists did think
solely in terms of basis triadic harmony that it had some influence in
the way that understanding of harmony developed in the early 17th
century.But that is a different matter.
Regards
Monica
--- On Fri, 16/12/11, Chris Despopoulos
[4]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
wrote:
From: Chris Despopoulos [5]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was:
Return
to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Martyn Hodgson [6]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Monica
Hall
[7]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist [8]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Friday, 16 December, 2011, 14:08
I thought one of the significant points of the period was a
transition
to harmonic vs voice thinking. And that the guitar was well
positioned, if not instrumental, within that transition. So
whether we
call it bajo continuo per se, it's consistent in my mind to
consider
alfabeto a realization (stylized, perhaps) of the bass.
Of course, the alfabeto can often oversimplify that realization. I
look at it much the way I look at the song books you can get today,
with guitar chords that gloss over interesting harmonic
progressions.
The same music played by the 8th graders I taught would sound very
different from what I would choose to do.
One thing I hear almost everywhere I go is that by and large the
published guitar music is a performance suggestion, not writ.
Everybody I've worked with has blessed changes to fingering,
addition
or changes of notes, and encouraged improvisation. The Sanz book
is
viewed as a lesson book, not a book of pieces that are to be played
exactly as written, for example. With Roncali I was chastised for
not
improvising. So why would alfabetos be any different?But does
that
make them any less realizations of the bass? If we're talking
about
pre-harmonic thinking, where else would the alfabetos come from?
cud
__
From: Martyn Hodgson [9]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Monica Hall [10]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist [11]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 3:41 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Thanks Monica,
It is a realisation of the bass line but, because of the
requirements
of the instrument, not always with the written bass part as the
lowest
note on the guitar: I guess we'll just have to agree
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Dear Lex,
A particular commonly occurring situation requiring the bass line to be
realised on the theorbo higher than the upper melodic line is where the
tenor sings a notated e' (ie that on the lowest line of treble clef)
but sounding an octave lower (ie the e in the bass clef) and the BC
line has a low G# 6 (ie on bottom line of bass clef). If G natural is
also frequently required in the piece (as often found) then on
a theorbo in A (with 6 fingered courses as most usual historically)
there is no low G# and the player is obliged to take the bass an octave
higher - ie top space of the bass clef and thus higher than the
singer's note. The situation is much the same where the tenor has a d
and the theorbo BC is obliged to take a f# in the bass.
Other types of specific examples include Caccini's 'Reggami per pieta'
where the singer has a low F# which has to be played by the BC an
octave higher since there are necessary low F naturals elsewhere in the
piece.
Chromatic notes are solved in the same way: by putting odd notes (or
even an entire passage) up an octave - see Ballard 'Methode pour
apprendre theorbe' (1660) page 10 especially which gives examples
in staff notation and in tablature showing the necessary octave
transposition for chromatic notes.
rgds
Martyn
--- On Sat, 17/12/11, Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl wrote:
From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return
to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk, Martyn Hodgson
hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Saturday, 17 December, 2011, 8:58
Dear Martyn,
Is there evidence for raising the bass on the theorbo, to even above
the
other voices? I understand that chromatic notes in the bass can be a
problem, but do we know how they solved that?
Lex
ps could you please stop sending the whole thread of the discussion
together
with your newest posts?
- Original Message -
From: Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist [3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2011 9:46 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier
question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Thanks Monica,
But I still don't see, and you don't explain, how other changes
(such
as raising the bass an octave in a theorbo realisation) differs
substantially from doing the same sort of thing on the guitar
As said, maybe we just have to agree to disagree..
rgds
Martyn
--
References
1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
3. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
That is all perfectly clear - but has absolutely nothing to do with playing
an alfabeto accompaniment - because the guitar is not going to try and
reproduce the bass part in any way.
You seem to be me to be confusing two unrelated sets of circumstances.
Monica
- Original Message -
From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2011 11:47 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier
question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Dear Lex,
A particular commonly occurring situation requiring the bass line to be
realised on the theorbo higher than the upper melodic line is where the
tenor sings a notated e' (ie that on the lowest line of treble clef)
but sounding an octave lower (ie the e in the bass clef) and the BC
line has a low G# 6 (ie on bottom line of bass clef). If G natural is
also frequently required in the piece (as often found) then on
a theorbo in A (with 6 fingered courses as most usual historically)
there is no low G# and the player is obliged to take the bass an octave
higher - ie top space of the bass clef and thus higher than the
singer's note. The situation is much the same where the tenor has a d
and the theorbo BC is obliged to take a f# in the bass.
Other types of specific examples include Caccini's 'Reggami per pieta'
where the singer has a low F# which has to be played by the BC an
octave higher since there are necessary low F naturals elsewhere in the
piece.
Chromatic notes are solved in the same way: by putting odd notes (or
even an entire passage) up an octave - see Ballard 'Methode pour
apprendre theorbe' (1660) page 10 especially which gives examples
in staff notation and in tablature showing the necessary octave
transposition for chromatic notes.
rgds
Martyn
--- On Sat, 17/12/11, Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl wrote:
From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return
to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk, Martyn Hodgson
hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Saturday, 17 December, 2011, 8:58
Dear Martyn,
Is there evidence for raising the bass on the theorbo, to even above
the
other voices? I understand that chromatic notes in the bass can be a
problem, but do we know how they solved that?
Lex
ps could you please stop sending the whole thread of the discussion
together
with your newest posts?
- Original Message -
From: Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist [3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2011 9:46 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier
question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Thanks Monica,
But I still don't see, and you don't explain, how other changes
(such
as raising the bass an octave in a theorbo realisation) differs
substantially from doing the same sort of thing on the guitar
As said, maybe we just have to agree to disagree..
rgds
Martyn
--
References
1.
http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
3. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Eh! This was in answer to a direct question about this one particular
matter from Lex! Not a continuation of your mail... I think you've
got confused - with respect,
Sorry - but I don't think so. You dragged in the theorbo which is
completely irrelevant when considering how to accompanying alfabeto songs.
You somehow seem to be trying to argue that the fact that on the theorbo
bass notes occasionally have to be displaced proves that there is a bass
part lurking amidst the alfabeto chords.
As an explanation as to why the theorbo does displace notes this is
helpful - but it is a red herring as far as the topic under discussion -
which started with Agazzari - is concerned.
And incidentally Corbetta's pieces in 1671 are not as far as we know
intended for
self accompaniment. He is not known to have been a singer and presumably
you don't sing one of the parts yourself when performing them.. or do
you?
As ever
Monica
rgds
M
--- On Sat, 17/12/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return
to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu, Lex Eisenhardt
eisenha...@planet.nl
Date: Saturday, 17 December, 2011, 12:32
That is all perfectly clear - but has absolutely nothing to do with
playing
an alfabeto accompaniment - because the guitar is not going to try and
reproduce the bass part in any way.
You seem to be me to be confusing two unrelated sets of circumstances.
Monica
- Original Message -
From: Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Lex Eisenhardt [2]eisenha...@planet.nl
Cc: Vihuelalist [3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2011 11:47 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier
question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Dear Lex,
A particular commonly occurring situation requiring the bass line
to be
realised on the theorbo higher than the upper melodic line is where
the
tenor sings a notated e' (ie that on the lowest line of treble
clef)
but sounding an octave lower (ie the e in the bass clef) and the BC
line has a low G# 6 (ie on bottom line of bass clef). If G natural
is
also frequently required in the piece (as often found) then on
a theorbo in A (with 6 fingered courses as most usual historically)
there is no low G# and the player is obliged to take the bass an
octave
higher - ie top space of the bass clef and thus higher than the
singer's note. The situation is much the same where the tenor has a
d
and the theorbo BC is obliged to take a f# in the bass.
Other types of specific examples include Caccini's 'Reggami per
pieta'
where the singer has a low F# which has to be played by the BC an
octave higher since there are necessary low F naturals elsewhere in
the
piece.
Chromatic notes are solved in the same way: by putting odd notes
(or
even an entire passage) up an octave - see Ballard 'Methode pour
apprendre theorbe' (1660) page 10 especially which gives
examples
in staff notation and in tablature showing the necessary octave
transposition for chromatic notes.
rgds
Martyn
--- On Sat, 17/12/11, Lex Eisenhardt [4]eisenha...@planet.nl
wrote:
From: Lex Eisenhardt [5]eisenha...@planet.nl
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was:
Return
to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Monica Hall [6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk, Martyn Hodgson
[7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist [8]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Saturday, 17 December, 2011, 8:58
Dear Martyn,
Is there evidence for raising the bass on the theorbo, to even
above
the
other voices? I understand that chromatic notes in the bass can be
a
problem, but do we know how they solved that?
Lex
ps could you please stop sending the whole thread of the discussion
together
with your newest posts?
- Original Message -
From: Martyn Hodgson [1][9]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Monica Hall [2][10]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist [3][11]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2011 9:46 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier
question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Thanks Monica,
But I still don't see, and you don't explain, how other changes
(such
as raising the bass an octave in a theorbo realisation) differs
substantially from doing the same sort of thing on the guitar
As said, maybe we just have to agree
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Ah - I think I know what's happening - you've got the wrong end of the stick: I am glad you know what is happening. It all depends on which end of the stick one has got hold of. I'm not (and have not as far as I can see) suggesting that an alfabeto accompaniment necessarily converts into a bass line (ie the lowest sounding note in each chord would result in the bass line - even if we knew it) but the converse: that a bass line enables one to 'realise' a chordal accompaniment (eg alfabeto) on the guitar - not the same thing at all. I'll take your word for it - there isn't time to go back all over it. And, of course, songs with nothing other than alfabeto can't and therefore don't show single notes. It's only when mixed tablature becomes common that we could expect to start to see such realisations. That's quite different to say it's 'wrong' to consider the practice of inserting some bass notes if one has the bass and not just the alfabeto. It's almost as if one only saw the alfabeto dances in Calvi (1646) without noticing his intabulated dances later in the same book and concluded he never wrote in two parts. He didn't write either of them actually. He copied them from elsewhere. The alfabeto pieces are copied from Corbetta's 1639 book and the other pieces from an unidentified source probably not originally for guitar. They belong to two different traditions. And I haven't even got round to Valdambrini yet - he seems to exhibit a fine disregard for the precise octave of the bass in his cadential examples. But that is not relevant to earlier alfabeto accompaniments. And, no, I don't anywhere suggest that if one has a bass line AND the alfabeto one should always seek to amalgamate the two. But I certainly don't think the practice is prohibited by any early contemporary sources - hence my suggestion about the performance of the Grandi song which has both the alfabeto and the bass line... It is not a question of whether it is prohibited or not since we do not have any surviving instructions. It is a question of what was customary at the time the Grandi song appeared in print and earlier - as far as we can tell from surviving sources which include written out alfabeto accompaniments. These do not give any suggestion at all that any attempt was made to include the bass part. Monica With reference to Lex ps could you please stop sending the whole thread of the discussion together with your newest posts? I have deleted an endless stream of junk from the end of this message. I suppose we are all such incurable individualists on this list that we will never agree as to how we should reply to messages. But I wish that people would delete everything except the points they are responding to. Whatever may have been netiquette in the dim distant past seems to me irrelevant today. Remember that these messages are archived and if they are just a mess it is difficult to refer back to them for useful information. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Hello everyone-
I hope I'm going about this the right way, by just responding in the
thread rather than going back to individual messages from the last 24
hours.
Thanks very much to all who took the time to listen to recordings I've
posted. For those who may have missed that message, the link is:
[1]http://www.budroach.com/baroque_guitar.html?r=20111217024548
What I was hoping to garner was a sense of whether or not the simple
alfabeto strumming is considered to be a sufficient accompaniment for
songs from the 1620's, and the general opinion seems to be in the
affirmative. On this issue, Monica and I seem to be in agreement, but
others have introduced suggestions that, in my view, would partly
diminish my goal with this project, which is to recreate what a singer
from the period would have done.
Martyn's suggestion to follow the bass line in certain passages would,
I agree, be musically effective, but would also depart from a pure
alfabeto accompaniment. Of course, the odd 4-3 suspension is also a
version of that same departure, and I often do this, but I'm not
convinced that the block harmony of the guitar is the best vehicle for
switching bar to bar from a bass line role to block-ish harmonic
underpinning. The evidence for this can be found in Grandi's third
volume itself. Although titled Cantade et arie, there are 23 strophic
songs, and only one cantata at the end. Alfabeto is used for every
strophic song, but not the cantata, which incorporates the odd measure
of melodic material in the bass line. The role of the bass in this
piece is clearly different from in the songs, which makes it less
suitable for accompaniment by a lone guitar.
At the risk of tossing too many ideas into the mix, this also touches
on the notion of combining the alfabeto with the printed bass line. I
am intrigued by Alexander Dean's argument that the harmonic dissonance
that would be created (specifically at cadential points) by this
arrangement helped to formulate the evolution of later 17th-century
harmonic practice. However, it again is outside my specific goal of
presenting these songs as a self-accompanied singer.
And, finally, to perhaps drive everyone crazy with a topic that has
been discussed so much in recent threads, I would like to bring out
into the open what Lex has brought up privately- the use of bourdons
in this repertoire. (I can almost hear your groans of despair!) From
what I have read, both from sources and from opinions posted on this
site, it is uncertain that one single stringing option was embraced by
an entire region for an extended period of time (for my purposes, the
third decade of the 17th century). Since the case can be made for a
number of stringing options, I have chosen the one that sounds best to
my ear, which is a boudon on the fourth course only. The fuller sound
that results from a bourdon on the fifth course is very appealing in
the abstract, but I find it distracting that with every downward stroke
there is an implied bass line from that pesky but useful fifth course!
Yet for some reason a bourdon on the fourth course isn't nearly as
intrusive, giving the benefits of a fuller tone without the harmonic
implications that I don't believe the composer (in this case Grandi)
intended.
So those are my three cents. I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
Since I have been receiving the messages from the listserve I have been
struck by the passion you all bring to these subjects, and am thrilled
to be a part of the discussion! And to read it all while listening to
Lex's beautiful playing on his Canta Venetia recording is a great way
to spend an early Saturday afternoon.
Bud
--- On Sat, 12/17/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Received: Saturday, December 17, 2011, 10:35 AM
Ah - I think I know what's happening - you've got the wrong end of
the
stick:
I am glad you know what is happening. It all depends on which end of
the
stick one has got hold of.
I'm not (and have not as far as I can see) suggesting that an
alfabeto accompaniment necessarily converts into a bass line (ie
the
lowest sounding note in each chord would result in the bass line -
even
if we knew it) but the converse: that a bass line enables one to
'realise' a chordal accompaniment (eg alfabeto) on the guitar - not
the
same thing at all.
I'll take your word for it - there isn't time to go back all over it.
And, of course, songs with nothing other than alfabeto can't and
therefore
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
I personally don't want to argue this point. First because I'm not
qualified, and secondly because it's not really what I was saying.
Monica, you're absolutely right that by definition it's not continuous
bass when playing derived harmonies in the alfabeto. I was only
supposing that the harmonies are derived from the bass, and informed by
practice of bajo continuo. In that sense, it's a realization of
something, at any rate. And following on what I've read by Craig
Russell, it's possible to imagine that the guitar, limits, quirks, and
all, contributed to the development of harmonic thinking in this way.
__
From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Lex Eisenhardt
eisenha...@planet.nl
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2011 7:32 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
That is all perfectly clear - but has absolutely nothing to do with
playing
an alfabeto accompaniment - because the guitar is not going to try and
reproduce the bass part in any way.
You seem to be me to be confusing two unrelated sets of circumstances.
Monica
- Original Message -
From: Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Lex Eisenhardt [2]eisenha...@planet.nl
Cc: Vihuelalist [3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2011 11:47 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier
question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Dear Lex,
A particular commonly occurring situation requiring the bass line to
be
realised on the theorbo higher than the upper melodic line is where
the
tenor sings a notated e' (ie that on the lowest line of treble clef)
but sounding an octave lower (ie the e in the bass clef) and the BC
line has a low G# 6 (ie on bottom line of bass clef). If G natural
is
also frequently required in the piece (as often found) then on
a theorbo in A (with 6 fingered courses as most usual historically)
there is no low G# and the player is obliged to take the bass an
octave
higher - ie top space of the bass clef and thus higher than the
singer's note. The situation is much the same where the tenor has a
d
and the theorbo BC is obliged to take a f# in the bass.
Other types of specific examples include Caccini's 'Reggami per
pieta'
where the singer has a low F# which has to be played by the BC an
octave higher since there are necessary low F naturals elsewhere in
the
piece.
Chromatic notes are solved in the same way: by putting odd notes (or
even an entire passage) up an octave - see Ballard 'Methode pour
apprendre theorbe' (1660) page 10 especially which gives
examples
in staff notation and in tablature showing the necessary octave
transposition for chromatic notes.
rgds
Martyn
--- On Sat, 17/12/11, Lex Eisenhardt [4]eisenha...@planet.nl
wrote:
From: Lex Eisenhardt [5]eisenha...@planet.nl
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was:
Return
to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Monica Hall [6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk, Martyn Hodgson
[7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist [8]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Saturday, 17 December, 2011, 8:58
Dear Martyn,
Is there evidence for raising the bass on the theorbo, to even above
the
other voices? I understand that chromatic notes in the bass can be a
problem, but do we know how they solved that?
Lex
ps could you please stop sending the whole thread of the discussion
together
with your newest posts?
- Original Message -
From: Martyn Hodgson [1][9]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Monica Hall [2][10]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist [3][11]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2011 9:46 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier
question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Thanks Monica,
But I still don't see, and you don't explain, how other changes
(such
as raising the bass an octave in a theorbo realisation) differs
substantially from doing the same sort of thing on the guitar
As said, maybe we just have to agree to disagree..
rgds
Martyn
--
References
1.
http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
2.
http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
3.
http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Thank you for this Eloy.
But, of course, it might be said that 6 guitars, percussion and conch
shell is already excessive. The question is: what evidence do we have
that such instruments, and in such numbers, were expected by JG de
Padilla and his auditors in contemporary performances of his setting of
Missa Ego flos campi.
Perhaps they were commonly employed, but are there any early records of
this?
Martyn
--- On Thu, 15/12/11, Eloy Cruz eloyc...@gmail.com wrote:
From: Eloy Cruz eloyc...@gmail.com
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Thursday, 15 December, 2011, 19:35
Of course, like you, I doubt whether the Pope would have expected
a
strummed guitar in Palestrina's Messa Papae Marcelli. Indeed, is
there
even any evidence for the excessive strumming in some modern
fashionable performances of South American sacred settings?
Probably not as much as players today like to think - but Eloy
perhaps could
tell us more about that if he is not too busy.
Well, I know no excessive strumming in some modern fashionable
performances
of South American sacred settings. The only example that comes to my
mind
is the Missa Mexicana CD by the Harp Consort: it's a setting of Missa
Ego
flos campi by JG de Padilla. The list of performers includes 6 guitar
players and 3 percussion players, one of whom also plays conch shell. I
think this CD could really be called fashionable: in between the Missa
movements, it mixes some dance-songs, villancicos and even a vocal
version
of Murcia's Cumbees alla Swingle Singers.
The liner notes only explain that the guitar was the most significant
instrument of Spanish baroque music, and mention that a set of 6
matched
Veracruz baroque guitars was specially made for this project. Anyway,
I
can't hear any excessive strumming in any of the tracks.
Cheers
eloy
We also agree on the excessive strumming ('thrashing about') often
found in some modern performances of solo songs.
Yes indeed!
Monica
To get on or off this list see list information at
[1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Thanks Monica,
It is a realisation of the bass line but, because of the requirements
of the instrument, not always with the written bass part as the lowest
note on the guitar: I guess we'll just have to agree to differ on
this.
Incidentally, the practical considerations for the theorbo also applies
to earlier music (eg Monteverdi et als) as well as Locke and later.
regards
Martyn
--- On Thu, 15/12/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return
to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Thursday, 15 December, 2011, 20:17
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 3:25 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier
question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Hmmm... Does a realised bass part always have to contain the bass
exactly as written in the staff notation as its lowest line? Of
course, ideally yes (and on the keyboard always yes) but many
theorbo
continuo realisations, for example, are obliged to adapt the bass
because of lack of chromatic notes in the instrument's lower
register
(or other reasons) and so must take the realised bass higher than
some
of the other lower parts in the work. Thus, in a couple of Locke
anthems I have in front of me at this moment, the occassional low
Eb
will have to be taken at the octave higher (and above the second
and
third choir sung bass lines) if I'm going to play a natural E
elswhere
in the work.
I don't think this is really relevant as we were discussing the very
early
17th century Italian repertoire - specifically alfabeto accompaniments.
A guitar playing an Alfabeto realisation will similarly have the
bass
note somewhere in the chord - hopefully at the bottom if the guitar
has
bourdons on both bass courses (as my continuo guitar does) - but if
not
then elsewhere in the full chord.
The point is that it that it may not do. The bass is the lowest
part.
We, and others, have often pointed
out that the peculiar stringing of the guitar (with high octaves
outwards etc) when strummed produces block chord sounds rather than
a
contrapuntal accompaniment - I see no practical reason why this
isn't a
realisation (ie a conversion into sound, a making known of) the
harmonies implied/required by the bass.
That may your interpretation of realizing a basso continuo part but I
don't
think that it is anyone elses.
Of course, a melodic bass
instrument is these situations is a bonus: but also note the
discussion
sometime ago about Marini's songs and the use of a seperate bass
with
the guitar...
I think I made it quite clear when we discussed this before that I do
not
think that the separate bass line is intended to be performed with the
alfabeto - indead if it were in some instances it would create
problems.
Here is his observation Note that in some places
you will find that the alfabeto does not fit with the bass line.
This
is because it is the wish of the author to accompany the voice in
as
many ways as possible rather than while, by paying heed to the
requirements of one instrument, he is constrained by those of the
other, since the guitar lacks many proper consonances.
I sense he thinks it a valid 'realisation' - if imperfect.
It may be a valid realization depending on the way you chose to define
realization but it is not a realization of the bass line.
Regards
Monica
.
--- On Thu, 15/12/11, Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
From: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return
to
earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Martyn Hodgson [3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Thursday, 15 December, 2011, 14:37
- Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson
[1][5]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Monica Hall [2][6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist [3][7]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Lex
Eisenhardt
[4][8]eisenha...@planet.nl
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 9:13 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
The Corradi 1616 collection contains pieces for one, two and
for
three
voices along with an intabulated part for 'chitarrone', the
guitar
alfabeto and a staff notated bass line ('da sonare nel
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
I thought one of the significant points of the period was a transition
to harmonic vs voice thinking. And that the guitar was well
positioned, if not instrumental, within that transition. So whether we
call it bajo continuo per se, it's consistent in my mind to consider
alfabeto a realization (stylized, perhaps) of the bass.
Of course, the alfabeto can often oversimplify that realization. I
look at it much the way I look at the song books you can get today,
with guitar chords that gloss over interesting harmonic progressions.
The same music played by the 8th graders I taught would sound very
different from what I would choose to do.
One thing I hear almost everywhere I go is that by and large the
published guitar music is a performance suggestion, not writ.
Everybody I've worked with has blessed changes to fingering, addition
or changes of notes, and encouraged improvisation. The Sanz book is
viewed as a lesson book, not a book of pieces that are to be played
exactly as written, for example. With Roncali I was chastised for not
improvising. So why would alfabetos be any different?But does that
make them any less realizations of the bass? If we're talking about
pre-harmonic thinking, where else would the alfabetos come from?
cud
__
From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 3:41 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Thanks Monica,
It is a realisation of the bass line but, because of the requirements
of the instrument, not always with the written bass part as the
lowest
note on the guitar: I guess we'll just have to agree to differ on
this.
Incidentally, the practical considerations for the theorbo also
applies
to earlier music (eg Monteverdi et als) as well as Locke and later.
regards
Martyn
--- On Thu, 15/12/11, Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
From: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return
to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Martyn Hodgson [3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Thursday, 15 December, 2011, 20:17
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 3:25 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier
question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Hmmm... Does a realised bass part always have to contain the bass
exactly as written in the staff notation as its lowest line? Of
course, ideally yes (and on the keyboard always yes) but many
theorbo
continuo realisations, for example, are obliged to adapt the bass
because of lack of chromatic notes in the instrument's lower
register
(or other reasons) and so must take the realised bass higher than
some
of the other lower parts in the work. Thus, in a couple of Locke
anthems I have in front of me at this moment, the occassional low
Eb
will have to be taken at the octave higher (and above the second
and
third choir sung bass lines) if I'm going to play a natural E
elswhere
in the work.
I don't think this is really relevant as we were discussing the very
early
17th century Italian repertoire - specifically alfabeto
accompaniments.
A guitar playing an Alfabeto realisation will similarly have the
bass
note somewhere in the chord - hopefully at the bottom if the
guitar
has
bourdons on both bass courses (as my continuo guitar does) - but
if
not
then elsewhere in the full chord.
The point is that it that it may not do. The bass is the lowest
part.
We, and others, have often pointed
out that the peculiar stringing of the guitar (with high octaves
outwards etc) when strummed produces block chord sounds rather
than
a
contrapuntal accompaniment - I see no practical reason why this
isn't a
realisation (ie a conversion into sound, a making known of) the
harmonies implied/required by the bass.
That may your interpretation of realizing a basso continuo part but I
don't
think that it is anyone elses.
Of course, a melodic bass
instrument is these situations is a bonus: but also note the
discussion
sometime ago about Marini's songs and the use of a seperate bass
with
the guitar...
I think I made it quite clear when we discussed this before that I do
not
think that the separate bass line is intended to be performed
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Thanks Chris.
Your observation that '...whether we call it bajo continuo per se,
it's consistent in my mind to consider alfabeto a realization
(stylized, perhaps) of the bass..', certainly coincides with my view on
guitar basso continuo using alfabeto. And, it seems to me, reflects
Marini's position too.
regards
martyn
--- On Fri, 16/12/11, Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
wrote:
From: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return
to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Monica Hall
mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Friday, 16 December, 2011, 14:08
I thought one of the significant points of the period was a transition
to harmonic vs voice thinking. And that the guitar was well
positioned, if not instrumental, within that transition. So whether we
call it bajo continuo per se, it's consistent in my mind to consider
alfabeto a realization (stylized, perhaps) of the bass.
Of course, the alfabeto can often oversimplify that realization. I
look at it much the way I look at the song books you can get today,
with guitar chords that gloss over interesting harmonic progressions.
The same music played by the 8th graders I taught would sound very
different from what I would choose to do.
One thing I hear almost everywhere I go is that by and large the
published guitar music is a performance suggestion, not writ.
Everybody I've worked with has blessed changes to fingering, addition
or changes of notes, and encouraged improvisation. The Sanz book is
viewed as a lesson book, not a book of pieces that are to be played
exactly as written, for example. With Roncali I was chastised for not
improvising. So why would alfabetos be any different?But does that
make them any less realizations of the bass? If we're talking about
pre-harmonic thinking, where else would the alfabetos come from?
cud
__
From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 3:41 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Thanks Monica,
It is a realisation of the bass line but, because of the requirements
of the instrument, not always with the written bass part as the
lowest
note on the guitar: I guess we'll just have to agree to differ on
this.
Incidentally, the practical considerations for the theorbo also
applies
to earlier music (eg Monteverdi et als) as well as Locke and later.
regards
Martyn
--- On Thu, 15/12/11, Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
From: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return
to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Martyn Hodgson [3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Thursday, 15 December, 2011, 20:17
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 3:25 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier
question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Hmmm... Does a realised bass part always have to contain the bass
exactly as written in the staff notation as its lowest line? Of
course, ideally yes (and on the keyboard always yes) but many
theorbo
continuo realisations, for example, are obliged to adapt the bass
because of lack of chromatic notes in the instrument's lower
register
(or other reasons) and so must take the realised bass higher than
some
of the other lower parts in the work. Thus, in a couple of Locke
anthems I have in front of me at this moment, the occassional low
Eb
will have to be taken at the octave higher (and above the second
and
third choir sung bass lines) if I'm going to play a natural E
elswhere
in the work.
I don't think this is really relevant as we were discussing the very
early
17th century Italian repertoire - specifically alfabeto
accompaniments.
A guitar playing an Alfabeto realisation will similarly have the
bass
note somewhere in the chord - hopefully at the bottom if the
guitar
has
bourdons on both bass courses (as my continuo guitar does) - but
if
not
then elsewhere in the full chord.
The point is that it that it may not do. The bass is the lowest
part.
We, and others, have often pointed
out that the peculiar stringing
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Hello-
I'm almost too late into the conversation, but this topic does pertain
to one of my current projects, so I'll put it out there
It seems to me that the debate centers on whether or not the simple
alfabeto chords will suffice as an accompaniment, without additional
instruments to play the written bass line. It is my opinion that some
composers (although perhaps not all) would have been quite content to
hear their secular songs accompanied by the guitar alone, and that the
alfabeto framework provided would give an adequate harmonic structure
for the voice.
However, I have had very little success in finding any recordings of
performances of early 17th century secular song that doesn't truck out
a veritable football team of continuo players! I am not immune to the
charms of the hammered dulcimer, but I do find it difficult to
understand how these interpretations could ever be considered to be
closer to what Grandi had in mind than what I have been doing myself as
a singer and guitarist.
So the question remains: Is the accompaniment provided by the alfabeto
symbols lacking? And, to my mind even more importantly: Is the
freedom that results from a self-accompanied performance (that simply
wouldn't be possible with a 3-4 member continuo group) worth enough to
outweigh any perceived shortcomings in the realization?
I have recorded three songs as a demo for a grant application, and have
posted them on a hidden page of my personal website, for those who
might be interested in this debate. One aria each by Grandi, Landi, and
Kapsberger, with scores and translations included.
The link is:
[1]http://www.budroach.com/baroque_guitar.html?r=20111216104205
I welcome your comments (either here or on my contact page) and thank
you for your scholarship!
Bud Roach
--- On Fri, 12/16/11, Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Received: Friday, December 16, 2011, 9:17 AM
Thanks Chris.
Your observation that '...whether we call it bajo continuo per se,
it's consistent in my mind to consider alfabeto a realization
(stylized, perhaps) of the bass..', certainly coincides with my view
on
guitar basso continuo using alfabeto. And, it seems to me, reflects
Marini's position too.
regards
martyn
--- On Fri, 16/12/11, Chris Despopoulos
[2]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
wrote:
From: Chris Despopoulos [3]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was:
Return
to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Martyn Hodgson [4]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Monica Hall
[5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist [6]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Friday, 16 December, 2011, 14:08
I thought one of the significant points of the period was a
transition
to harmonic vs voice thinking. And that the guitar was well
positioned, if not instrumental, within that transition. So whether
we
call it bajo continuo per se, it's consistent in my mind to consider
alfabeto a realization (stylized, perhaps) of the bass.
Of course, the alfabeto can often oversimplify that realization. I
look at it much the way I look at the song books you can get today,
with guitar chords that gloss over interesting harmonic
progressions.
The same music played by the 8th graders I taught would sound very
different from what I would choose to do.
One thing I hear almost everywhere I go is that by and large the
published guitar music is a performance suggestion, not writ.
Everybody I've worked with has blessed changes to fingering,
addition
or changes of notes, and encouraged improvisation. The Sanz book is
viewed as a lesson book, not a book of pieces that are to be played
exactly as written, for example. With Roncali I was chastised for
not
improvising. So why would alfabetos be any different?But does
that
make them any less realizations of the bass? If we're talking about
pre-harmonic thinking, where else would the alfabetos come from?
cud
__
From: Martyn Hodgson [7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Monica Hall [8]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Cc:
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 3:41 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Thanks Monica,
It is a realisation
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Dear Martyn
Yes, 6 guitars is a very peculiar continuo band.
As I said, I remember no evidence of such a band, or particularly guitars,
playing at the cathedral in Padilla's times. But now that you mention it,
many years ago, an american musicologist told me something about the music
chapel of Puebla inviting some popular musicians to join them for the
performance of some villancicos or something like that. I'm trying to
confirm this reference, but Dr. Stanford is apparently not available at this
time. Whenever I get some info I'll let you know
Greetings
eloy
El [FECHA], [NOMBRE] [DIRECCION] escribió:
Thank you for this Eloy.
But, of course, it might be said that 6 guitars, percussion and conch
shell is already excessive. The question is: what evidence do we have
that such instruments, and in such numbers, were expected by JG de
Padilla and his auditors in contemporary performances of his setting of
Missa Ego flos campi.
Perhaps they were commonly employed, but are there any early records of
this?
Martyn
--- On Thu, 15/12/11, Eloy Cruz eloyc...@gmail.com wrote:
From: Eloy Cruz eloyc...@gmail.com
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Thursday, 15 December, 2011, 19:35
Of course, like you, I doubt whether the Pope would have expected
a
strummed guitar in Palestrina's Messa Papae Marcelli. Indeed, is
there
even any evidence for the excessive strumming in some modern
fashionable performances of South American sacred settings?
Probably not as much as players today like to think - but Eloy
perhaps could
tell us more about that if he is not too busy.
Well, I know no excessive strumming in some modern fashionable
performances
of South American sacred settings. The only example that comes to my
mind
is the Missa Mexicana CD by the Harp Consort: it's a setting of Missa
Ego
flos campi by JG de Padilla. The list of performers includes 6 guitar
players and 3 percussion players, one of whom also plays conch shell. I
think this CD could really be called fashionable: in between the Missa
movements, it mixes some dance-songs, villancicos and even a vocal
version
of Murcia's Cumbees alla Swingle Singers.
The liner notes only explain that the guitar was the most significant
instrument of Spanish baroque music, and mention that a set of 6
matched
Veracruz baroque guitars was specially made for this project. Anyway,
I
can't hear any excessive strumming in any of the tracks.
Cheers
eloy
We also agree on the excessive strumming ('thrashing about') often
found in some modern performances of solo songs.
Yes indeed!
Monica
To get on or off this list see list information at
[1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
- Original Message -
From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 2:17 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier
question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Thanks Chris.
Your observation that '...whether we call it bajo continuo per se,
it's consistent in my mind to consider alfabeto a realization
(stylized, perhaps) of the bass..', certainly coincides with my view on
guitar basso continuo using alfabeto. And, it seems to me, reflects
Marini's position too.
Sorry - but I think that you are both mistaken. You seem to be trying to
argue that any form of accompaniment can be regarded as realizing a bass
line. Interpreting terminology and practice in this way is meaningless.
A basso continuo is what is says it is - a continuous, clearly
identifiable bass line from which the accompaning intervals (rather than
triads) are calculated. Occasionally, as you say the notes, which appear in
the bass part may not always be reproduced exactly for practical reasons,
but there is always a clear bass part - not one concealed or implied
incidentally in a series of major and minor triads.
It is probably true that because the baroque guitarists did think solely in
terms of basis triadic harmony that it had some influence in the way that
understanding of harmony developed in the early 17th century.But that is
a different matter.
Regards
Monica
--- On Fri, 16/12/11, Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
wrote:
From: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return
to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Monica Hall
mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Friday, 16 December, 2011, 14:08
I thought one of the significant points of the period was a transition
to harmonic vs voice thinking. And that the guitar was well
positioned, if not instrumental, within that transition. So whether we
call it bajo continuo per se, it's consistent in my mind to consider
alfabeto a realization (stylized, perhaps) of the bass.
Of course, the alfabeto can often oversimplify that realization. I
look at it much the way I look at the song books you can get today,
with guitar chords that gloss over interesting harmonic progressions.
The same music played by the 8th graders I taught would sound very
different from what I would choose to do.
One thing I hear almost everywhere I go is that by and large the
published guitar music is a performance suggestion, not writ.
Everybody I've worked with has blessed changes to fingering, addition
or changes of notes, and encouraged improvisation. The Sanz book is
viewed as a lesson book, not a book of pieces that are to be played
exactly as written, for example. With Roncali I was chastised for not
improvising. So why would alfabetos be any different?But does that
make them any less realizations of the bass? If we're talking about
pre-harmonic thinking, where else would the alfabetos come from?
cud
__
From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 3:41 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Thanks Monica,
It is a realisation of the bass line but, because of the requirements
of the instrument, not always with the written bass part as the
lowest
note on the guitar: I guess we'll just have to agree to differ on
this.
Incidentally, the practical considerations for the theorbo also
applies
to earlier music (eg Monteverdi et als) as well as Locke and later.
regards
Martyn
--- On Thu, 15/12/11, Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
From: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return
to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Martyn Hodgson [3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Thursday, 15 December, 2011, 20:17
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 3:25 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier
question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Hmmm... Does a realised bass part always have to contain the bass
exactly as written in the staff notation as its lowest line? Of
course, ideally yes (and on the keyboard always yes) but many
theorbo
continuo realisations, for example, are obliged
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Dear Monica,
The Corradi 1616 collection contains pieces for one, two and for three
voices along with an intabulated part for 'chitarrone', the guitar
alfabeto and a staff notated bass line ('da sonare nel Clavicembalo, et
altri Stromenti simili'). So it's not just solo songs accompanied by a
solo guitar and does reflect similiar instrumental options found for
just basso continuo parts in similar collections - in short, I do
think it accurate to call the guitar alfabeto a realised basso continuo
part in this case.
Of course, like you, I doubt whether the Pope would have expected a
strummed guitar in Palestrina's Messa Papae Marcelli. Indeed, is there
even any evidence for the excessive strumming in some modern
fashionable performances of South American sacred settings?
We also agree on the excessive strumming ('thrashing about') often
found in some modern performances of solo songs.
Martyn
--- On Wed, 14/12/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu, Lex Eisenhardt
eisenha...@planet.nl
Date: Wednesday, 14 December, 2011, 15:44
- Original Message -
From: Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Lex Eisenhardt [2]eisenha...@planet.nl
Cc: Vihuelalist [3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 9:52 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier
question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Maybe I am butting in here but I think we are a bit at cross
purposes. I
don't have a copy of Corradi's book but I assume that it is a
collection of
solo songs with voice part, bass part and alfabeto over the voice part.
What Agazzari is concerned with primarily is accompanying vocal music
in
several parts - (which in the context I think it is appropriate to
refer to
as polyphony).
The final two pages are concerned with explaining how to accompany
Palestrina's Messa Papae Marcelli. Surely the Pope would have had a
fit if
the baroque guitar or even the chitarrina was strumming continuously
throughout (even if the guitarist was Amat!). This
is going to be performed in church as part of the Mass and the only
likely
accompaniment would have been the organ with possible a theorbo or
other
bass instrument reinforcing the lowest part.
The other instruments are more likely to have been involved when
accompanying secular vocal music in several parts as in the choruses in
the
Intermedii.
In any case I don't think that the idea is to accompany solo songs with
elaborate instrumental accompaniments as often seems to happen today.
Monica
Dear Lex,
Much as I deprecate the high lervels of banging and thrashing about
produced by some guitar continuo players these days, I see no
reason to
suppose that strumming should be generally eschewed ('It seems
unlikely
however that a chordal style, continuously including all courses of
the
instrument, was intended'). For example, song accompaniments with
Alfabeto are surely nothing more than basso continuo realisations
on
the guitar (as for example in the Corradi 1616) I mentioned.
rgds
Martyn
--- On Wed, 14/12/11, Lex Eisenhardt [4]eisenha...@planet.nl
wrote:
From: Lex Eisenhardt [5]eisenha...@planet.nl
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re:
Agazzari
guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Monica Hall [6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist [7]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Wednesday, 14 December, 2011, 8:51
Agazzari was working in Rome and Siena, and probably the
chitarra
spagnuola was more widely known there around 1600.
But Agazzari's 'Del sonare sopra il basso' is really about
figured
bass and counterpoint, and from how he describes the use of the
'ornamental' instruments it appears that the chordal style of the
guitar is not within sight. I doubt if Agazzari would have
considered
the alfabeto of the guitar as a 'foundation', while the bass is not
even performed on the guitar.
I think you are interpreting what he says in too narrow a way.
Amongst the second group of instruments he has included the Lirone,
Cetera and the Pandora. These are all instruments which are
capable
of filling in the harmony to some extent. There is no reason to
suppose that they played nothing but a single lin - what would the
point be - and the same is true of the chitarrina. It could be
strumming away
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
- Original Message -
From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Lex Eisenhardt
eisenha...@planet.nl
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 9:13 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier
question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
The Corradi 1616 collection contains pieces for one, two and for three
voices along with an intabulated part for 'chitarrone', the guitar
alfabeto and a staff notated bass line ('da sonare nel Clavicembalo, et
altri Stromenti simili'). So it's not just solo songs accompanied by a
solo guitar and does reflect similiar instrumental options found for
just basso continuo parts in similar collections - in short, I do
think it accurate to call the guitar alfabeto a realised basso continuo
part in this case.
Well - obviously I haven't seen it but it sounds a bit like the Kapsberger
villanelle. However I don't think that it is correct to call the guitar
alfabeto a realized basso continuo part because it is clearly not a
realization of the bass part. Even if the alfabeto actually matches the
bass part, the guitar does not reproduce the bass part or the harmony in the
correct inversions. It won't usually even reflect obvious harmonic
progessions such as a 4-3 suspension. And as far as the various
instruments mentioned are concerned I think these are alternatives rather
than intended all to play together.
Of course, like you, I doubt whether the Pope would have expected a
strummed guitar in Palestrina's Messa Papae Marcelli. Indeed, is there
even any evidence for the excessive strumming in some modern
fashionable performances of South American sacred settings?
Probably not as much as players today like to think - but Eloy perhaps could
tell us more about that if he is not too busy.
We also agree on the excessive strumming ('thrashing about') often
found in some modern performances of solo songs.
Yes indeed!
Monica
--- On Wed, 14/12/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu, Lex Eisenhardt
eisenha...@planet.nl
Date: Wednesday, 14 December, 2011, 15:44
- Original Message -
From: Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Lex Eisenhardt [2]eisenha...@planet.nl
Cc: Vihuelalist [3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 9:52 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier
question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Maybe I am butting in here but I think we are a bit at cross
purposes. I
don't have a copy of Corradi's book but I assume that it is a
collection of
solo songs with voice part, bass part and alfabeto over the voice part.
What Agazzari is concerned with primarily is accompanying vocal music
in
several parts - (which in the context I think it is appropriate to
refer to
as polyphony).
The final two pages are concerned with explaining how to accompany
Palestrina's Messa Papae Marcelli. Surely the Pope would have had a
fit if
the baroque guitar or even the chitarrina was strumming continuously
throughout (even if the guitarist was Amat!). This
is going to be performed in church as part of the Mass and the only
likely
accompaniment would have been the organ with possible a theorbo or
other
bass instrument reinforcing the lowest part.
The other instruments are more likely to have been involved when
accompanying secular vocal music in several parts as in the choruses in
the
Intermedii.
In any case I don't think that the idea is to accompany solo songs with
elaborate instrumental accompaniments as often seems to happen today.
Monica
Dear Lex,
Much as I deprecate the high lervels of banging and thrashing about
produced by some guitar continuo players these days, I see no
reason to
suppose that strumming should be generally eschewed ('It seems
unlikely
however that a chordal style, continuously including all courses of
the
instrument, was intended'). For example, song accompaniments with
Alfabeto are surely nothing more than basso continuo realisations
on
the guitar (as for example in the Corradi 1616) I mentioned.
rgds
Martyn
--- On Wed, 14/12/11, Lex Eisenhardt [4]eisenha...@planet.nl
wrote:
From: Lex Eisenhardt [5]eisenha...@planet.nl
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re:
Agazzari
guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Monica Hall [6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist [7]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Wednesday, 14 December, 2011, 8:51
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Hmmm... Does a realised bass part always have to contain the bass
exactly as written in the staff notation as its lowest line? Of
course, ideally yes (and on the keyboard always yes) but many theorbo
continuo realisations, for example, are obliged to adapt the bass
because of lack of chromatic notes in the instrument's lower register
(or other reasons) and so must take the realised bass higher than some
of the other lower parts in the work. Thus, in a couple of Locke
anthems I have in front of me at this moment, the occassional low Eb
will have to be taken at the octave higher (and above the second and
third choir sung bass lines) if I'm going to play a natural E elswhere
in the work.
A guitar playing an Alfabeto realisation will similarly have the bass
note somewhere in the chord - hopefully at the bottom if the guitar has
bourdons on both bass courses (as my continuo guitar does) - but if not
then elsewhere in the full chord. We, and others, have often pointed
out that the peculiar stringing of the guitar (with high octaves
outwards etc) when strummed produces block chord sounds rather than a
contrapuntal accompaniment - I see no practical reason why this isn't a
realisation (ie a conversion into sound, a making known of) the
harmonies implied/required by the bass. Of course, a melodic bass
instrument is these situations is a bonus: but also note the discussion
sometime ago about Marini's songs and the use of a seperate bass with
the guitar... Here is his observation Note that in some places
you will find that the alfabeto does not fit with the bass line. This
is because it is the wish of the author to accompany the voice in as
many ways as possible rather than while, by paying heed to the
requirements of one instrument, he is constrained by those of the
other, since the guitar lacks many proper consonances.
I sense he thinks it a valid 'realisation' - if imperfect.
regards
Martyn
.
--- On Thu, 15/12/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Thursday, 15 December, 2011, 14:37
- Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson
[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist [3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Lex Eisenhardt
[4]eisenha...@planet.nl
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 9:13 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
The Corradi 1616 collection contains pieces for one, two and for
three
voices along with an intabulated part for 'chitarrone', the guitar
alfabeto and a staff notated bass line ('da sonare nel
Clavicembalo, et
altri Stromenti simili'). So it's not just solo songs accompanied
by a
solo guitar and does reflect similiar instrumental options found
for
just basso continuo parts in similar collections - in short, I do
think it accurate to call the guitar alfabeto a realised basso
continuo
part in this case.
Well - obviously I haven't seen it but it sounds a bit like the
Kapsberger villanelle. However I don't think that it is correct to
call the guitar alfabeto a realized basso continuo part because it is
clearly not a realization of the bass part. Even if the alfabeto
actually matches the bass part, the guitar does not reproduce the bass
part or the harmony in the correct inversions. It won't usually even
reflect obvious harmonic progessions such as a 4-3 suspension. And as
far as the various instruments mentioned are concerned I think these
are alternatives rather than intended all to play together.
Of course, like you, I doubt whether the Pope would have expected a
strummed guitar in Palestrina's Messa Papae Marcelli. Indeed, is
there
even any evidence for the excessive strumming in some modern
fashionable performances of South American sacred settings?
Probably not as much as players today like to think - but Eloy perhaps
could tell us more about that if he is not too busy.
We also agree on the excessive strumming ('thrashing about') often
found in some modern performances of solo songs.
Yes indeed!
Monica
--- On Wed, 14/12/11, Monica Hall [5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
From: Monica Hall [6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return
to
earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Martyn Hodgson [7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist [8]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu, Lex
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Of course, like you, I doubt whether the Pope would have expected a
strummed guitar in Palestrina's Messa Papae Marcelli. Indeed, is there
even any evidence for the excessive strumming in some modern
fashionable performances of South American sacred settings?
Probably not as much as players today like to think - but Eloy perhaps could
tell us more about that if he is not too busy.
Well, I know no excessive strumming in some modern fashionable performances
of South American sacred settings. The only example that comes to my mind
is the Missa Mexicana CD by the Harp Consort: it's a setting of Missa Ego
flos campi by JG de Padilla. The list of performers includes 6 guitar
players and 3 percussion players, one of whom also plays conch shell. I
think this CD could really be called fashionable: in between the Missa
movements, it mixes some dance-songs, villancicos and even a vocal version
of Murcia's Cumbees alla Swingle Singers.
The liner notes only explain that the guitar was the most significant
instrument of Spanish baroque music, and mention that a set of 6 matched
Veracruz baroque guitars was specially made for this project. Anyway, I
can't hear any excessive strumming in any of the tracks.
Cheers
eloy
We also agree on the excessive strumming ('thrashing about') often
found in some modern performances of solo songs.
Yes indeed!
Monica
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 3:25 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier
question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Hmmm... Does a realised bass part always have to contain the bass
exactly as written in the staff notation as its lowest line? Of
course, ideally yes (and on the keyboard always yes) but many theorbo
continuo realisations, for example, are obliged to adapt the bass
because of lack of chromatic notes in the instrument's lower register
(or other reasons) and so must take the realised bass higher than some
of the other lower parts in the work. Thus, in a couple of Locke
anthems I have in front of me at this moment, the occassional low Eb
will have to be taken at the octave higher (and above the second and
third choir sung bass lines) if I'm going to play a natural E elswhere
in the work.
I don't think this is really relevant as we were discussing the very early
17th century Italian repertoire - specifically alfabeto accompaniments.
A guitar playing an Alfabeto realisation will similarly have the bass
note somewhere in the chord - hopefully at the bottom if the guitar has
bourdons on both bass courses (as my continuo guitar does) - but if not
then elsewhere in the full chord.
The point is that it that it may not do. The bass is the lowest part.
We, and others, have often pointed
out that the peculiar stringing of the guitar (with high octaves
outwards etc) when strummed produces block chord sounds rather than a
contrapuntal accompaniment - I see no practical reason why this isn't a
realisation (ie a conversion into sound, a making known of) the
harmonies implied/required by the bass.
That may your interpretation of realizing a basso continuo part but I don't
think that it is anyone elses.
Of course, a melodic bass
instrument is these situations is a bonus: but also note the discussion
sometime ago about Marini's songs and the use of a seperate bass with
the guitar...
I think I made it quite clear when we discussed this before that I do not
think that the separate bass line is intended to be performed with the
alfabeto - indead if it were in some instances it would create problems.
Here is his observation Note that in some places
you will find that the alfabeto does not fit with the bass line. This
is because it is the wish of the author to accompany the voice in as
many ways as possible rather than while, by paying heed to the
requirements of one instrument, he is constrained by those of the
other, since the guitar lacks many proper consonances.
I sense he thinks it a valid 'realisation' - if imperfect.
It may be a valid realization depending on the way you chose to define
realization but it is not a realization of the bass line.
Regards
Monica
.
--- On Thu, 15/12/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Thursday, 15 December, 2011, 14:37
- Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson
[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist [3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Lex Eisenhardt
[4]eisenha...@planet.nl
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 9:13 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
The Corradi 1616 collection contains pieces for one, two and for
three
voices along with an intabulated part for 'chitarrone', the guitar
alfabeto and a staff notated bass line ('da sonare nel
Clavicembalo, et
altri Stromenti simili'). So it's not just solo songs accompanied
by a
solo guitar and does reflect similiar instrumental options found
for
just basso continuo parts in similar collections - in short, I do
think it accurate to call the guitar alfabeto a realised basso
continuo
part in this case.
Well - obviously I haven't seen it but it sounds a bit like the
Kapsberger villanelle. However I don't think that it is correct to
call the guitar alfabeto a realized basso continuo part because it is
clearly not a realization of the bass part. Even if the alfabeto
actually matches the bass part, the guitar does not reproduce the bass
part or the harmony in the correct inversions. It won't usually even
reflect obvious harmonic progessions such as a 4-3 suspension. And as
far as the various instruments mentioned are concerned I think these
are alternatives rather than intended all to play together.
Of course, like you, I doubt whether the Pope would have expected a
strummed guitar in Palestrina's Messa Papae Marcelli. Indeed, is
there
even any
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
- Original Message -
From: Eloy Cruz eloyc...@gmail.com
To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 7:35 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier
question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Probably not as much as players today like to think - but Eloy perhaps
could
tell us more about that if he is not too busy.
Well, I know no excessive strumming in some modern fashionable
performances
of South American sacred settings. The only example that comes to my
mind
is the Missa Mexicana CD by the Harp Consort: it's a setting of Missa
Ego
flos campi by JG de Padilla. The list of performers includes 6 guitar
players and 3 percussion players, one of whom also plays conch shell. I
think this CD could really be called fashionable: in between the Missa
movements, it mixes some dance-songs, villancicos and even a vocal version
of Murcia's Cumbees alla Swingle Singers.
Oh yes - I have this CD. It is actually quite nice. I don't think the
guitars are used to accompany the movements from the Mass although the harp,
bajon, organ and possibly stringed bass instruments are. The guitars are
used in the pieces with Spanish words. Is there any historical evidence
for example of such groups of instruments being used at Puebla Cathedral
where Padilla was based?
The liner notes only explain that the guitar was the most significant
instrument of Spanish baroque music, and mention that a set of 6 matched
Veracruz baroque guitars was specially made for this project. Anyway, I
can't hear any excessive strumming in any of the tracks.
What is the difference between Mexican baroque guitars or Vera Cruz baroque
guitars and ordinary baroque guitars. They certainly look different in the
photos. Are they historical or are they something the players have
imagined?
Cheers
Monica
We also agree on the excessive strumming ('thrashing about') often
found in some modern performances of solo songs.
Yes indeed!
Monica
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
- Original Message -
From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 9:52 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier
question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Maybe I am butting in here but I think we are a bit at cross purposes. I
don't have a copy of Corradi's book but I assume that it is a collection of
solo songs with voice part, bass part and alfabeto over the voice part.
What Agazzari is concerned with primarily is accompanying vocal music in
several parts - (which in the context I think it is appropriate to refer to
as polyphony).
The final two pages are concerned with explaining how to accompany
Palestrina's Messa Papae Marcelli. Surely the Pope would have had a fit if
the baroque guitar or even the chitarrina was strumming continuously
throughout (even if the guitarist was Amat!). This
is going to be performed in church as part of the Mass and the only likely
accompaniment would have been the organ with possible a theorbo or other
bass instrument reinforcing the lowest part.
The other instruments are more likely to have been involved when
accompanying secular vocal music in several parts as in the choruses in the
Intermedii.
In any case I don't think that the idea is to accompany solo songs with
elaborate instrumental accompaniments as often seems to happen today.
Monica
Dear Lex,
Much as I deprecate the high lervels of banging and thrashing about
produced by some guitar continuo players these days, I see no reason to
suppose that strumming should be generally eschewed ('It seems unlikely
however that a chordal style, continuously including all courses of the
instrument, was intended'). For example, song accompaniments with
Alfabeto are surely nothing more than basso continuo realisations on
the guitar (as for example in the Corradi 1616) I mentioned.
rgds
Martyn
--- On Wed, 14/12/11, Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl wrote:
From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari
guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Wednesday, 14 December, 2011, 8:51
Agazzari was working in Rome and Siena, and probably the chitarra
spagnuola was more widely known there around 1600.
But Agazzari's 'Del sonare sopra il basso' is really about figured
bass and counterpoint, and from how he describes the use of the
'ornamental' instruments it appears that the chordal style of the
guitar is not within sight. I doubt if Agazzari would have considered
the alfabeto of the guitar as a 'foundation', while the bass is not
even performed on the guitar.
I think you are interpreting what he says in too narrow a way.
Amongst the second group of instruments he has included the Lirone,
Cetera and the Pandora. These are all instruments which are capable
of filling in the harmony to some extent. There is no reason to
suppose that they played nothing but a single lin - what would the
point be - and the same is true of the chitarrina. It could be
strumming away in there!
Agazzari (in Strunk) says: 'Like ornaments are those which, in a
playful and _contrapuntal_ fashion, make the harmony more agreeable and
sonorous.'
The instruments with 'imperfect harmony [of the parts] such as the
cetera, lirone, chitarrina, etc.' could indeed have played more than
one voice at a time, although single line should also be considered
possible. But I assume that Agazzari would have expected that also this
was done 'in a contrapuntal fashion.' And yes, on the cetera and
chitarrina that could possibly mean strumming. It seems unlikely
however that a chordal style, continuously including all courses of the
instrument, was intended
Lex
To get on or off this list see list information at
[1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
