Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy
On Tue, Aug 25, 2015 at 11:49 PM, John Levine jo...@taugh.com wrote: most landline carriers won't port it to a landline if it's out of ratecenter. I thought ports were only possible within a rate centre, and so by definition impossible to port to a carrier which doesn't operate in that rate centre? It is my impression that ports are technically possible anywhere within a LATA, but for business reasons most telcos won't port between rate centers. They're definitely not possible across the country because long distance calls only do the LNP lookup after routing the call to the destination tandem. (That's the L in LNP.) Usually this is because their numbers can't support nomadic 911. ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy
They're definitely not possible across the country because long distance calls only do the LNP lookup after routing the call to the destination tandem. (That's the L in LNP.) Usually this is because their numbers can't support nomadic 911. It's more than that, long distance carriers couldn't route calls to calls ported outside the LATA without some significant changes to signalling protocols. I can believe it's all easy for numbers within your network, but IXC traffic usually hands traffic to the tandem and expects it to do the LNP part. Regards, John Levine, jo...@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy
On Aug 25, 2015, at 23:49, John Levine jo...@taugh.com wrote: most landline carriers won't port it to a landline if it's out of ratecenter. I thought ports were only possible within a rate centre, and so by definition impossible to port to a carrier which doesn't operate in that rate centre? It is my impression that ports are technically possible anywhere within a LATA, but for business reasons most telcos won't port between rate centers. They're definitely not possible across the country because long distance calls only do the LNP lookup after routing the call to the destination tandem. (That's the L in LNP.) Your impression is correct. My commentary regarding cross-national number access on a POTS line was based on the idea i'd be trucking it across my network from a tandem in California in that example across my network to detroit, and dropping it on your doorstep, but yes, LATA. And the business reason has to do with local calling areas if you're not on an unlimited plan, as well as intercarrier compensation even if you are. -Paul ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy
Yeah, I guess it makes sense at a technical level. Any CLEC can, in principle, pick up a call from anywhere in the LATA at the ILEC tandems (notwithstanding issues of DEOTs and all that), and they do so with regularity. I just thought there was something in one hundred percent of ICAs that stops them from violating the incumbent's conceptions of rate centres as described in their public tariff. On outbound, this is accomplished with switched access, I suppose. On inbound, I would think it would just be the ILECs stopping them. -- Alex Balashov | Principal | Evariste Systems LLC 303 Perimeter Center North, Suite 300 Atlanta, GA 30346 United States Tel: +1-800-250-5920 (toll-free) / +1-678-954-0671 (direct) Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/, http://www.csrpswitch.com/ Sent from my Nexus 10.___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy
On 08/25/2015 04:41 PM, Paul Timmins wrote: most landline carriers won't port it to a landline if it's out of ratecenter. I thought ports were only possible within a rate centre, and so by definition impossible to port to a carrier which doesn't operate in that rate centre? -- Alex Balashov | Principal | Evariste Systems LLC 303 Perimeter Center North, Suite 300 Atlanta, GA 30346 United States Tel: +1-800-250-5920 (toll-free) / +1-678-954-0671 (direct) Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/, http://www.csrpswitch.com/ ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy
On 08/25/2015 05:52 PM, Alex Balashov wrote: On 08/25/2015 04:41 PM, Paul Timmins wrote: most landline carriers won't port it to a landline if it's out of ratecenter. I thought ports were only possible within a rate centre, and so by definition impossible to port to a carrier which doesn't operate in that rate centre? That's what the rules say, yes. The language seems clear but these days really isn't. The technology itself lets you basically port anything in the LATA you're in as long as your LRN is well connected. operating in the ratecenter can get pretty nebulous when you're talking about things like hosted PBX, remote call forwards, VoIP ATAs, remote office things like google voice, etc. Nothing technically stops me from providing you a POTS line here in Detroit with a Los Angeles phone number, in and out. I could load a detroit 911 address and even not have to worry that you'll die if something untoward happens here. And it could all be as baseband voice on that twin copper wire coming into your house (and I could put bonded VDSL2/ADSL2+ on that if you wanted, too, depending on the wirecenter and distance!). For me, it's just keystrokes at my desk. And depending on what and how you and I contract, there's nothing at all illegal or even unethical about it. Heck, foreign exchange lines are a tariffed product still in many states! What i cannot do for sure is have you request service from me, give you a number 3 towns over and not have you aware of that, and then laugh as you try to take that to ATT POTS and watch them tell you in a bewildered tone that you can't keep that number and how do you have that anyway. (This language applies mostly to Michigan as we've mostly deregulated our entire telecom industry here, to the consumer's detriment) -Paul ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy
On 08/25/2015 04:29 PM, Alex Balashov wrote: On 08/25/2015 04:24 PM, Paul Timmins wrote: taking the obvious cell phone blocks out first saves you time and money. Curious, how does that deal with a scenario in which there was an intermodal port wireless - fixed-line? Or does this just not tend to happen to any non-negligible degree? If so, I wonder if that may change with the advent of MVNOs whose back side is a VoIP-oriented CLEC + the regulatory movement toward non-LEC ITSPs owning their own number resources Is it reasonable to expect that all mobile numbers operated by some sort of enhanced wireless provider (e.g. a boutique MVNO) will be homed to the big networks' number blocks which return a wireless affiliation? Most marketers don't care. It happens, but very very rarely - the cost benefits of pre-scrubbing a few million numbers this way tends to outweigh the occasional sale they'll get hitting one of these (remember, the call to conversion ratio is typically amazingly low to begin with). If things do move back to landline, it's usually stuff that started that way. Many people have wireless numbers not in their home ratecenter (because wireless carriers do things by MSA and never really had to care) and most landline carriers won't port it to a landline if it's out of ratecenter. -Paul ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy
On 08/25/2015 04:22 PM, Alex Balashov wrote: That's exactly right. There's no way to clean up a list by NPA-NXX. You need to know where the call is going to go, which cannot be determined from the number itself[1]. So, you still need to do an LNP lookup to know which prefix the number is genuinely' affiliated with. [1] Except for nonportable blocks/areas. As I explain to my customers, you can absolutely use my data to do the initial scrub. LNP dips tend to cost money per dip, so taking the obvious cell phone blocks out first saves you time and money. But you MUST do the next step and scrub them after dipping too. -Paul ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy
On 08/25/2015 04:24 PM, Paul Timmins wrote: taking the obvious cell phone blocks out first saves you time and money. Curious, how does that deal with a scenario in which there was an intermodal port wireless - fixed-line? Or does this just not tend to happen to any non-negligible degree? If so, I wonder if that may change with the advent of MVNOs whose back side is a VoIP-oriented CLEC + the regulatory movement toward non-LEC ITSPs owning their own number resources Is it reasonable to expect that all mobile numbers operated by some sort of enhanced wireless provider (e.g. a boutique MVNO) will be homed to the big networks' number blocks which return a wireless affiliation? -- Alex Balashov | Principal | Evariste Systems LLC 303 Perimeter Center North, Suite 300 Atlanta, GA 30346 United States Tel: +1-800-250-5920 (toll-free) / +1-678-954-0671 (direct) Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/, http://www.csrpswitch.com/ ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy
Right. All these products are doing is doing the NPA-NXX lookup AFTER the LNP lookup. The NPA-NXX of the LRN is the carrier of record. If it's a cell phone company NPA/NXX you're dealing with a cellphone. -Paul On 08/19/2015 07:25 PM, Carlos Alvarez wrote: Their lists are already cleaned by NPA-NXX, it's just not sufficient any more because of LNP. Looks like the TCPA compliance product from Neustar, which someone else posted yesterday, is the best solution. Pretty cheap too. It's just indicates intermodal porting of a number with no other info. On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 12:40 PM Paul Timmins p...@timmins.net mailto:p...@timmins.net wrote: I know a guy who runs a site that sells the npa nxx to carrier type at a fraction of the lerg costs On Aug 19, 2015 11:39 AM, Alex Balashov abalas...@evaristesys.com mailto:abalas...@evaristesys.com wrote: Indeed, you'd start from the NPAC, which would get you, for a given TN, an LRN. Then what? -- Alex Balashov | Principal | Evariste Systems LLC 303 Perimeter Center North, Suite 300 Atlanta, GA 30346 United States Tel: +1-800-250-5920 (toll-free) / +1-678-954-0671 (direct) Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/, http://www.csrpswitch.com/ Sent from my BlackBerry. Original Message From: Kidd Filby Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2015 10:52 To: Carlos Alvarez Cc: voiceops@voiceops.org mailto:voiceops@voiceops.org Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy If I were to offer this service or database access, I would start with my own local copy of NPAC that I'd update every X-minutes a day. This product is available now and has been for a while. This is the only sure-way, I know of, to have the most accurate data to work from. Kidd On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Carlos Alvarez caalva...@gmail.com mailto:caalva...@gmail.com wrote: I have a customer in market research who is legally required to manually dial calls to cell phones. Right now they are considering abandoning all of their auto/predictive dialer software and going to manual dial for everything, because the list-scrubbing services have been shown to be inaccurate. There are extreme penalties for auto-dialing a cell phone, and best effort is NOT a defense to this, at all. For example, Gallup just settle a claim for $12M. So they need a totally accurate way to prevent a cell phone call from originating from their dialer. The only thing I can think of is some sort of LRN dip + LRN-to-carrier-type response. One of their people talked to Neustar, but didn't get great answers because he doesn't really understand telephony. Before I get in touch with Neustar, I thought I'd see if people here have some ideas. If you provide a commercial product for this, please feel free to tell me so on or off list, the customer is willing to pay for the service and we're open to all options. I don't have a budget number yet but manual dialing is going to cost them quite a bit for some types of studies. ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org mailto:VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops -- Kidd Filby 661.557.5640 (C) http://www.linkedin.com/in/kiddfilby ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org mailto:VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org mailto:VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy
That's all we need to know. If the number is currently going to a cell carrier, it gets moved to a manual-dial bucket. If not, allow it to be auto-dialed. That's all. The regulations are a joke and are just affecting legit businesses doing actual work. The spam/scam operators just ignore it all and can't be found since they are overseas or using overseas proxies. I've since also found, from my own research, that there are many reasons they could still auto-dial a cell phone. If they have any existing business with the person, if the person has previously agreed to do phone surveys, and similar scenarios. So the only numbers affected are those that they random-dial or sequential-dial for purposes of polling a random sampling of people. This is only a small fraction of their projects. On Fri, Aug 21, 2015 at 12:41 PM Alex Balashov abalas...@evaristesys.com wrote: Why should Carlos's client care about HLR DB entries? Isn't determining whether the number is homed to a mobile operator sufficient to indemnify against the regulation? -- Alex Balashov | Principal | Evariste Systems LLC 303 Perimeter Center North, Suite 300 Atlanta, GA 30346 United States Tel: +1-800-250-5920 (toll-free) / +1-678-954-0671 (direct) Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/, http://www.csrpswitch.com/ ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy
Can't speak to this firm's quality or completion. If it is important enough, seems like you could do your own SS7 dips for HLR/HSS on a per-call basis. -Original Message- From: VoiceOps [mailto:voiceops-boun...@voiceops.org] On Behalf Of Aaron Seelye Sent: Friday, August 21, 2015 12:16 To: voiceops@voiceops.org Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy HLR's are unique to the GSM/UMTS world (and LTE has an HSS, which is similar). This wouldn't/shouldn't work for Sprint/Verizon. -Aaron On 8/21/15 11:56 AM, Paul Timmins wrote: HLR Check doesn't know about my Sprint CDMA phone. On Aug 21, 2015 14:49, Hiers, David david.hi...@cdk.com wrote: Checking for the existence of TN’s HLR might do the trick: www.hlrcheck.com From: VoiceOps [mailto:voiceops-boun...@voiceops.org] On Behalf Of Jared Geiger Sent: Friday, August 21, 2015 11:40 To: VoiceOps Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy It seems ANI Networks has a product that would work. When you do an LRN dip, it can show the OCN Category such as Cellular. Looks like it also supports DNC list support. http://aninetworks.com/PDF/ANI_Networks_Routing_Registry_Service.pdf I don't have any experience with the product, but looks like this is what you need. On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 4:25 PM, Carlos Alvarez caalva...@gmail.com wrote: Their lists are already cleaned by NPA-NXX, it's just not sufficient any more because of LNP. Looks like the TCPA compliance product from Neustar, which someone else posted yesterday, is the best solution. Pretty cheap too. It's just indicates intermodal porting of a number with no other info. On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 12:40 PM Paul Timmins p...@timmins.net wrote: I know a guy who runs a site that sells the npa nxx to carrier type at a fraction of the lerg costs On Aug 19, 2015 11:39 AM, Alex Balashov abalas...@evaristesys.com wrote: Indeed, you'd start from the NPAC, which would get you, for a given TN, an LRN. Then what? -- Alex Balashov | Principal | Evariste Systems LLC 303 Perimeter Center North, Suite 300 Atlanta, GA 30346 United States Tel: +1-800-250-5920 (toll-free) / +1-678-954-0671 (direct) Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/, http://www.csrpswitch.com/ Sent from my BlackBerry. Original Message From: Kidd Filby Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2015 10:52 To: Carlos Alvarez Cc: voiceops@voiceops.org Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy If I were to offer this service or database access, I would start with my own local copy of NPAC that I'd update every X-minutes a day. This product is available now and has been for a while. This is the only sure-way, I know of, to have the most accurate data to work from. Kidd On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Carlos Alvarez caalva...@gmail.com wrote: I have a customer in market research who is legally required to manually dial calls to cell phones. Right now they are considering abandoning all of their auto/predictive dialer software and going to manual dial for everything, because the list-scrubbing services have been shown to be inaccurate. There are extreme penalties for auto-dialing a cell phone, and best effort is NOT a defense to this, at all. For example, Gallup just settle a claim for $12M. So they need a totally accurate way to prevent a cell phone call from originating from their dialer. The only thing I can think of is some sort of LRN dip + LRN-to-carrier-type response. One of their people talked to Neustar, but didn't get great answers because he doesn't really understand telephony. Before I get in touch with Neustar, I thought I'd see if people here have some ideas. If you provide a commercial product for this, please feel free to tell me so on or off list, the customer is willing to pay for the service and we're open to all options. I don't have a budget number yet but manual dialing is going to cost them quite a bit for some types of studies. ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops -- Kidd Filby 661.557.5640 (C) http://www.linkedin.com/in/kiddfilby ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If the reader
Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy
The principle is valid; mobile numbers have HLRs. I would not exclude them or the method based on the free demo. -Original Message- From: Paul Timmins [mailto:p...@timmins.net] Sent: Friday, August 21, 2015 11:56 To: Hiers, David (DS) Cc: VoiceOps; ja...@compuwizz.net Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy HLR Check doesn't know about my Sprint CDMA phone. On Aug 21, 2015 14:49, Hiers, David david.hi...@cdk.com wrote: Checking for the existence of TN’s HLR might do the trick: www.hlrcheck.com From: VoiceOps [mailto:voiceops-boun...@voiceops.org] On Behalf Of Jared Geiger Sent: Friday, August 21, 2015 11:40 To: VoiceOps Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy It seems ANI Networks has a product that would work. When you do an LRN dip, it can show the OCN Category such as Cellular. Looks like it also supports DNC list support. http://aninetworks.com/PDF/ANI_Networks_Routing_Registry_Service.pdf I don't have any experience with the product, but looks like this is what you need. On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 4:25 PM, Carlos Alvarez caalva...@gmail.com wrote: Their lists are already cleaned by NPA-NXX, it's just not sufficient any more because of LNP. Looks like the TCPA compliance product from Neustar, which someone else posted yesterday, is the best solution. Pretty cheap too. It's just indicates intermodal porting of a number with no other info. On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 12:40 PM Paul Timmins p...@timmins.net wrote: I know a guy who runs a site that sells the npa nxx to carrier type at a fraction of the lerg costs On Aug 19, 2015 11:39 AM, Alex Balashov abalas...@evaristesys.com wrote: Indeed, you'd start from the NPAC, which would get you, for a given TN, an LRN. Then what? -- Alex Balashov | Principal | Evariste Systems LLC 303 Perimeter Center North, Suite 300 Atlanta, GA 30346 United States Tel: +1-800-250-5920 (toll-free) / +1-678-954-0671 (direct) Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/, http://www.csrpswitch.com/ Sent from my BlackBerry. Original Message From: Kidd Filby Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2015 10:52 To: Carlos Alvarez Cc: voiceops@voiceops.org Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy If I were to offer this service or database access, I would start with my own local copy of NPAC that I'd update every X-minutes a day. This product is available now and has been for a while. This is the only sure-way, I know of, to have the most accurate data to work from. Kidd On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Carlos Alvarez caalva...@gmail.com wrote: I have a customer in market research who is legally required to manually dial calls to cell phones. Right now they are considering abandoning all of their auto/predictive dialer software and going to manual dial for everything, because the list-scrubbing services have been shown to be inaccurate. There are extreme penalties for auto-dialing a cell phone, and best effort is NOT a defense to this, at all. For example, Gallup just settle a claim for $12M. So they need a totally accurate way to prevent a cell phone call from originating from their dialer. The only thing I can think of is some sort of LRN dip + LRN-to-carrier-type response. One of their people talked to Neustar, but didn't get great answers because he doesn't really understand telephony. Before I get in touch with Neustar, I thought I'd see if people here have some ideas. If you provide a commercial product for this, please feel free to tell me so on or off list, the customer is willing to pay for the service and we're open to all options. I don't have a budget number yet but manual dialing is going to cost them quite a bit for some types of studies. ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops -- Kidd Filby 661.557.5640 (C) http://www.linkedin.com/in/kiddfilby ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If the reader of the message is not the intended recipient or an authorized representative of the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any
Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy
HLR's are unique to the GSM/UMTS world (and LTE has an HSS, which is similar). This wouldn't/shouldn't work for Sprint/Verizon. -Aaron On 8/21/15 11:56 AM, Paul Timmins wrote: HLR Check doesn't know about my Sprint CDMA phone. On Aug 21, 2015 14:49, Hiers, David david.hi...@cdk.com wrote: Checking for the existence of TN’s HLR might do the trick: www.hlrcheck.com From: VoiceOps [mailto:voiceops-boun...@voiceops.org] On Behalf Of Jared Geiger Sent: Friday, August 21, 2015 11:40 To: VoiceOps Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy It seems ANI Networks has a product that would work. When you do an LRN dip, it can show the OCN Category such as Cellular. Looks like it also supports DNC list support. http://aninetworks.com/PDF/ANI_Networks_Routing_Registry_Service.pdf I don't have any experience with the product, but looks like this is what you need. On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 4:25 PM, Carlos Alvarez caalva...@gmail.com wrote: Their lists are already cleaned by NPA-NXX, it's just not sufficient any more because of LNP. Looks like the TCPA compliance product from Neustar, which someone else posted yesterday, is the best solution. Pretty cheap too. It's just indicates intermodal porting of a number with no other info. On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 12:40 PM Paul Timmins p...@timmins.net wrote: I know a guy who runs a site that sells the npa nxx to carrier type at a fraction of the lerg costs On Aug 19, 2015 11:39 AM, Alex Balashov abalas...@evaristesys.com wrote: Indeed, you'd start from the NPAC, which would get you, for a given TN, an LRN. Then what? -- Alex Balashov | Principal | Evariste Systems LLC 303 Perimeter Center North, Suite 300 Atlanta, GA 30346 United States Tel: +1-800-250-5920 (toll-free) / +1-678-954-0671 (direct) Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/, http://www.csrpswitch.com/ Sent from my BlackBerry. Original Message From: Kidd Filby Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2015 10:52 To: Carlos Alvarez Cc: voiceops@voiceops.org Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy If I were to offer this service or database access, I would start with my own local copy of NPAC that I'd update every X-minutes a day. This product is available now and has been for a while. This is the only sure-way, I know of, to have the most accurate data to work from. Kidd On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Carlos Alvarez caalva...@gmail.com wrote: I have a customer in market research who is legally required to manually dial calls to cell phones. Right now they are considering abandoning all of their auto/predictive dialer software and going to manual dial for everything, because the list-scrubbing services have been shown to be inaccurate. There are extreme penalties for auto-dialing a cell phone, and best effort is NOT a defense to this, at all. For example, Gallup just settle a claim for $12M. So they need a totally accurate way to prevent a cell phone call from originating from their dialer. The only thing I can think of is some sort of LRN dip + LRN-to-carrier-type response. One of their people talked to Neustar, but didn't get great answers because he doesn't really understand telephony. Before I get in touch with Neustar, I thought I'd see if people here have some ideas. If you provide a commercial product for this, please feel free to tell me so on or off list, the customer is willing to pay for the service and we're open to all options. I don't have a budget number yet but manual dialing is going to cost them quite a bit for some types of studies. ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops -- Kidd Filby 661.557.5640 (C) http://www.linkedin.com/in/kiddfilby ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If the reader of the message is not the intended recipient or an authorized representative of the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, notify the sender immediately by return email and delete the message and any attachments from your system. ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy
Well, in all fairness, overseas-originated calls aren't magical. Nothing can be dumped into the North American PSTN without the cooperation and abetting of a local, PSTN-interconnected entity. :-) But yes, point taken; the terminators claim common carrier and the end-scammer-spammer can't be effectively held liable. -- Alex Balashov | Principal | Evariste Systems LLC 303 Perimeter Center North, Suite 300 Atlanta, GA 30346 United States Tel: +1-800-250-5920 (toll-free) / +1-678-954-0671 (direct) Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/, http://www.csrpswitch.com/ Sent from my BlackBerry. Original Message From: Carlos Alvarez Sent: Friday, August 21, 2015 16:15 To: Alex Balashov; voiceops@voiceops.org Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy
It seems ANI Networks has a product that would work. When you do an LRN dip, it can show the OCN Category such as Cellular. Looks like it also supports DNC list support. http://aninetworks.com/PDF/ANI_Networks_Routing_Registry_Service.pdf I don't have any experience with the product, but looks like this is what you need. On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 4:25 PM, Carlos Alvarez caalva...@gmail.com wrote: Their lists are already cleaned by NPA-NXX, it's just not sufficient any more because of LNP. Looks like the TCPA compliance product from Neustar, which someone else posted yesterday, is the best solution. Pretty cheap too. It's just indicates intermodal porting of a number with no other info. On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 12:40 PM Paul Timmins p...@timmins.net wrote: I know a guy who runs a site that sells the npa nxx to carrier type at a fraction of the lerg costs On Aug 19, 2015 11:39 AM, Alex Balashov abalas...@evaristesys.com wrote: Indeed, you'd start from the NPAC, which would get you, for a given TN, an LRN. Then what? -- Alex Balashov | Principal | Evariste Systems LLC 303 Perimeter Center North, Suite 300 Atlanta, GA 30346 United States Tel: +1-800-250-5920 (toll-free) / +1-678-954-0671 (direct) Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/, http://www.csrpswitch.com/ Sent from my BlackBerry. Original Message From: Kidd Filby Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2015 10:52 To: Carlos Alvarez Cc: voiceops@voiceops.org Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy If I were to offer this service or database access, I would start with my own local copy of NPAC that I'd update every X-minutes a day. This product is available now and has been for a while. This is the only sure-way, I know of, to have the most accurate data to work from. Kidd On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Carlos Alvarez caalva...@gmail.com wrote: I have a customer in market research who is legally required to manually dial calls to cell phones. Right now they are considering abandoning all of their auto/predictive dialer software and going to manual dial for everything, because the list-scrubbing services have been shown to be inaccurate. There are extreme penalties for auto-dialing a cell phone, and best effort is NOT a defense to this, at all. For example, Gallup just settle a claim for $12M. So they need a totally accurate way to prevent a cell phone call from originating from their dialer. The only thing I can think of is some sort of LRN dip + LRN-to-carrier-type response. One of their people talked to Neustar, but didn't get great answers because he doesn't really understand telephony. Before I get in touch with Neustar, I thought I'd see if people here have some ideas. If you provide a commercial product for this, please feel free to tell me so on or off list, the customer is willing to pay for the service and we're open to all options. I don't have a budget number yet but manual dialing is going to cost them quite a bit for some types of studies. ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops -- Kidd Filby 661.557.5640 (C) http://www.linkedin.com/in/kiddfilby ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy
Indeed, you'd start from the NPAC, which would get you, for a given TN, an LRN. Then what? -- Alex Balashov | Principal | Evariste Systems LLC 303 Perimeter Center North, Suite 300 Atlanta, GA 30346 United States Tel: +1-800-250-5920 (toll-free) / +1-678-954-0671 (direct) Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/, http://www.csrpswitch.com/ Sent from my BlackBerry. Original Message From: Kidd Filby Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2015 10:52 To: Carlos Alvarez Cc: voiceops@voiceops.org Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy If I were to offer this service or database access, I would start with my own local copy of NPAC that I'd update every X-minutes a day. This product is available now and has been for a while. This is the only sure-way, I know of, to have the most accurate data to work from. Kidd On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Carlos Alvarez caalva...@gmail.com wrote: I have a customer in market research who is legally required to manually dial calls to cell phones. Right now they are considering abandoning all of their auto/predictive dialer software and going to manual dial for everything, because the list-scrubbing services have been shown to be inaccurate. There are extreme penalties for auto-dialing a cell phone, and best effort is NOT a defense to this, at all. For example, Gallup just settle a claim for $12M. So they need a totally accurate way to prevent a cell phone call from originating from their dialer. The only thing I can think of is some sort of LRN dip + LRN-to-carrier-type response. One of their people talked to Neustar, but didn't get great answers because he doesn't really understand telephony. Before I get in touch with Neustar, I thought I'd see if people here have some ideas. If you provide a commercial product for this, please feel free to tell me so on or off list, the customer is willing to pay for the service and we're open to all options. I don't have a budget number yet but manual dialing is going to cost them quite a bit for some types of studies. ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops -- Kidd Filby 661.557.5640 (C) http://www.linkedin.com/in/kiddfilby ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy
It could be anytime the *LEC still has the entire A block. As far as how common it is I can't really say. My cell phone and childhood phone number are both native routed. Wireline: http://www.localcallingguide.com/lca_prefix.php?npa=732nxx=363 Wireless: http://www.localcallingguide.com/lca_prefix.php?npa=201nxx=320 James Milko Architect, Network Engineering 900 Main Campus Drive Raleigh, NC 27606 Bandwidth http://www.bandwidth.com/business/ On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 1:39 PM, Alex Balashov abalas...@evaristesys.com wrote: Aren't 95%+ rate centres pooled these days? If so, they'd still have LRNs, since LRN-guided routing is a requirement of pooling. So, who still has non-pooled 10K blocks? Is that common in metro, or largely a trait of rural LECs? -- Alex Balashov | Principal | Evariste Systems LLC 303 Perimeter Center North, Suite 300 Atlanta, GA 30346 United States Tel: +1-800-250-5920 (toll-free) / +1-678-954-0671 (direct) Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/, http://www.csrpswitch.com/ Sent from my BlackBerry. *From: *James Milko *Sent: *Wednesday, August 19, 2015 13:32 *To: *Alex Balashov *Cc: *VoiceOps *Subject: *Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy NPAC has a service type field that indicates wireless/wireline. That doesn't solve for native numbers though since they won't have LRN data since they don't have LRNs. I don't remember offhand if LERG has a wireless/wireline indication for a given [A]OCN or block. James Milko Architect, Network Engineering 900 Main Campus Drive Raleigh, NC 27606 Bandwidth http://www.bandwidth.com/business/ On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 11:39 AM, Alex Balashov abalas...@evaristesys.com wrote: Indeed, you'd start from the NPAC, which would get you, for a given TN, an LRN. Then what? -- Alex Balashov | Principal | Evariste Systems LLC 303 Perimeter Center North, Suite 300 Atlanta, GA 30346 United States Tel: +1-800-250-5920 (toll-free) / +1-678-954-0671 (direct) Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/, http://www.csrpswitch.com/ Sent from my BlackBerry. Original Message From: Kidd Filby Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2015 10:52 To: Carlos Alvarez Cc: voiceops@voiceops.org Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy If I were to offer this service or database access, I would start with my own local copy of NPAC that I'd update every X-minutes a day. This product is available now and has been for a while. This is the only sure-way, I know of, to have the most accurate data to work from. Kidd On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Carlos Alvarez caalva...@gmail.com wrote: I have a customer in market research who is legally required to manually dial calls to cell phones. Right now they are considering abandoning all of their auto/predictive dialer software and going to manual dial for everything, because the list-scrubbing services have been shown to be inaccurate. There are extreme penalties for auto-dialing a cell phone, and best effort is NOT a defense to this, at all. For example, Gallup just settle a claim for $12M. So they need a totally accurate way to prevent a cell phone call from originating from their dialer. The only thing I can think of is some sort of LRN dip + LRN-to-carrier-type response. One of their people talked to Neustar, but didn't get great answers because he doesn't really understand telephony. Before I get in touch with Neustar, I thought I'd see if people here have some ideas. If you provide a commercial product for this, please feel free to tell me so on or off list, the customer is willing to pay for the service and we're open to all options. I don't have a budget number yet but manual dialing is going to cost them quite a bit for some types of studies. ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops -- Kidd Filby 661.557.5640 (C) http://www.linkedin.com/in/kiddfilby ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy
Yeah, poking around metro Atlanta, which is quite pooled, there do seem to be quite a few A block assignments floating around.--AlexBalashov|Principal|EvaristeSystemsLLC303PerimeterCenterNorth,Suite300Atlanta,GA30346UnitedStatesTel:+1-800-250-5920(toll-free)/+1-678-954-0671(direct)Web:http://www.evaristesys.com/,http://www.csrpswitch.com/SentfrommyBlackBerry.From: James MilkoSent: Wednesday, August 19, 2015 13:57To: Alex BalashovCc: VoiceOpsSubject: Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracyIt could be anytime the *LEC still has the entire A block. As far as how common it is I can't really say. My cell phone and childhood phone number are both native routed.Wireline:http://www.localcallingguide.com/lca_prefix.php?npa=732nxx=363Wireless:http://www.localcallingguide.com/lca_prefix.php?npa=201nxx=320James MilkoArchitect, Network Engineering900 Main Campus DriveRaleigh, NC 27606Bandwidth On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 1:39 PM, Alex Balashov abalas...@evaristesys.com wrote: Aren't 95%+ rate centres pooled these days? If so, they'd still have LRNs, since LRN-guided routing is a requirement of pooling. So, who still has non-pooled 10K blocks? Is that common in metro, or largely a trait of rural LECs?--AlexBalashov|Principal|EvaristeSystemsLLC303PerimeterCenterNorth,Suite300Atlanta,GA30346UnitedStatesTel:+1-800-250-5920(toll-free)/+1-678-954-0671(direct)Web:http://www.evaristesys.com/,http://www.csrpswitch.com/SentfrommyBlackBerry.From: James MilkoSent: Wednesday, August 19, 2015 13:32To: Alex BalashovCc: VoiceOpsSubject: Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracyNPAC has a service type field that indicates wireless/wireline. That doesn't solve for native numbers though since they won't have LRN data since they don't have LRNs. I don't remember offhand if LERG has a wireless/wireline indication for a given [A]OCN or block.James MilkoArchitect, Network Engineering900 Main Campus DriveRaleigh, NC 27606BandwidthOn Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 11:39 AM, Alex Balashov abalas...@evaristesys.com wrote:Indeed, you'd start from the NPAC, which would get you, for a given TN, an LRN. Then what? -- AlexBalashov|Principal|EvaristeSystemsLLC 303PerimeterCenterNorth,Suite300 Atlanta,GA30346 UnitedStates Tel:+1-800-250-5920(toll-free)/+1-678-954-0671 (direct) Web:http://www.evaristesys.com/, http://www.csrpswitch.com/ SentfrommyBlackBerry. Original Message From: Kidd Filby Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2015 10:52 To: Carlos Alvarez Cc: voiceops@voiceops.org Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy If I were to offer this service or database access, I would start with my own local copy of NPAC that I'd update every X-minutes a day. This product is available now and has been for a while. This is the only sure-way, I know of, to have the most accurate data to work from. Kidd On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Carlos Alvarez caalva...@gmail.com wrote: I have a customer in market research who is legally required to manually dial calls to cell phones. Right now they are considering abandoning all of their auto/predictive dialer software and going to manual dial for everything, because the list-scrubbing services have been shown to be inaccurate. There are extreme penalties for auto-dialing a cell phone, and "best effort" is NOT a defense to this, at all. For example, Gallup just settle a claim for $12M. So they need a totally accurate way to prevent a cell phone call from originating from their dialer. The only thing I can think of is some sort ofLRN dip + LRN-to-carrier-type response. One of their people talked to Neustar, but didn't get great answers because he doesn't really understand telephony. Before I ge
Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy
Aren't 95%+ rate centres pooled these days? If so, they'd still have LRNs, since LRN-guided routing is a requirement of pooling. So, who still has non-pooled 10K blocks? Is that common in metro, or largely a trait of rural LECs?--AlexBalashov|Principal|EvaristeSystemsLLC303PerimeterCenterNorth,Suite300Atlanta,GA30346UnitedStatesTel:+1-800-250-5920(toll-free)/+1-678-954-0671(direct)Web:http://www.evaristesys.com/,http://www.csrpswitch.com/SentfrommyBlackBerry.From: James MilkoSent: Wednesday, August 19, 2015 13:32To: Alex BalashovCc: VoiceOpsSubject: Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracyNPAC has a service type field that indicates wireless/wireline. That doesn't solve for native numbers though since they won't have LRN data since they don't have LRNs. I don't remember offhand if LERG has a wireless/wireline indication for a given [A]OCN or block.James MilkoArchitect, Network Engineering900 Main Campus DriveRaleigh, NC 27606BandwidthOn Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 11:39 AM, Alex Balashov abalas...@evaristesys.com wrote:Indeed, you'd start from the NPAC, which would get you, for a given TN, an LRN. Then what? -- AlexBalashov|Principal|EvaristeSystemsLLC 303PerimeterCenterNorth,Suite300 Atlanta,GA30346 UnitedStates Tel:+1-800-250-5920(toll-free)/+1-678-954-0671 (direct) Web:http://www.evaristesys.com/, http://www.csrpswitch.com/ SentfrommyBlackBerry. Original Message From: Kidd Filby Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2015 10:52 To: Carlos Alvarez Cc: voiceops@voiceops.org Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy If I were to offer this service or database access, I would start with my own local copy of NPAC that I'd update every X-minutes a day. This product is available now and has been for a while. This is the only sure-way, I know of, to have the most accurate data to work from. Kidd On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Carlos Alvarez caalva...@gmail.com wrote: I have a customer in market research who is legally required to manually dial calls to cell phones. Right now they are considering abandoning all of their auto/predictive dialer software and going to manual dial for everything, because the list-scrubbing services have been shown to be inaccurate. There are extreme penalties for auto-dialing a cell phone, and "best effort" is NOT a defense to this, at all. For example, Gallup just settle a claim for $12M. So they need a totally accurate way to prevent a cell phone call from originating from their dialer. The only thing I can think of is some sort ofLRN dip + LRN-to-carrier-type response. One of their people talked to Neustar, but didn't get great answers because he doesn't really understand telephony. Before I get in touch with Neustar, I thought I'd see if people here have some ideas. If you provide a commercial product for this, please feel free to tell me so on or off list, the customer is willing to pay for the service and we're open to all options. I don't have a budget number yet but manual dialing is going to cost them quite a bit for some types of studies. ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops -- Kidd Filby 661.557.5640(C) http://www.linkedin.com/in/kiddfilby ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy
Thanks, Mary Lou. But does the NPAC have any such fields as well?Incidentally, where are the COCTYPE/SSC/COTYPE fields in the LERG? I was just getting the operator designation from LERG1, and mapping LRNs from LERG12.Keep in mind I'm viewing lergdata.mdb on Linux, and that's an enormous pain and doesn't lend itself to easy exploration. :-)--AlexBalashov|Principal|EvaristeSystemsLLC303PerimeterCenterNorth,Suite300Atlanta,GA30346UnitedStatesTel:+1-800-250-5920(toll-free)/+1-678-954-0671(direct)Web:http://www.evaristesys.com/,http://www.csrpswitch.com/SentfrommyBlackBerry.From: Mary Lou CareySent: Wednesday, August 19, 2015 13:59To: Alex Balashov; James MilkoReply To: Mary Lou CareyCc: VoiceOpsSubject: Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy I am an AOCN and yes the LERG has fields that differentiates between wireline and wireless. There are actually three fields that you could filter by: COCTYPE: Identifies the type of code SSC: Identifies the type of service COTYPE: Identifies the type of carrier Mary Lou Carey BackUP Telecom Consulting 615-791-9969 On August 19, 2015 at 12:32 PM James Milko jmi...@bandwidth.com wrote: NPAC has a service type field that indicates wireless/wireline. That doesn't solve for native numbers though since they won't have LRN data since they don't have LRNs. I don't remember offhand if LERG has a wireless/wireline indication for a given [A]OCN or block. James Milko Architect, Network Engineering 900 Main Campus Drive Raleigh, NC 27606 Bandwidth On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 11:39 AM, Alex Balashov abalas...@evaristesys.com wrote: Indeed, you'd start from the NPAC, which would get you, for a given TN, an LRN. Then what? -- AlexBalashov|Principal|EvaristeSystemsLLC 303PerimeterCenterNorth,Suite300 Atlanta,GA30346 UnitedStates Tel:+1-800-250-5920(toll-free)/+1-678-954-0671 (direct) Web:http://www.evaristesys.com/, http://www.csrpswitch.com/ SentfrommyBlackBerry. Original Message From: Kidd Filby Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2015 10:52 To: Carlos Alvarez Cc: voiceops@voiceops.org Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy If I were to offer this service or database access, I would start with my own local copy of NPAC that I'd update every X-minutes a day. This product is available now and has been for a while. This is the only sure-way, I know of, to have the most accurate data to work from. Kidd On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Carlos Alvarez caalva...@gmail.com wrote: I have a customer in market research who is legally required to manually dial calls to cell phones. Right now they are considering abandoning all of their auto/predictive dialer software and going to manual dial for everything, because the list-scrubbing services have been shown to be inaccurate. There are extreme penalties for auto-dialing a cell phone, and "best effort" is NOT a defense to this, at all. For example, Gallup just settle a claim for $12M. So they need a totally accurate way to prevent a cell phone call from originating from their dialer. The only thing I can think of is some sort ofLRN dip + LRN-to-carrier-type response. One of their people talked to Neustar, but didn't get great answers because he doesn't really understand telephony. Before I get in touch with Neustar, I thought I'd see if people here have some ideas. If you provide a commercial product for this, please feel free to tell me so on or off list, the customer is willing to pay for the service and we're open to all options. I don't have a budget number yet but manual dialing is going to cost them quite a bit for some types of studies. ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops -- Kidd Filby 661.557.5640(C) http://www.linkedin.com/in/kiddfilby ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops ___VoiceOps mailing listVoiceOps@voiceops.orghttps://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops Mary Lou CareyBackUP Telecom Consultingmary...@backuptelecom.comOffice: 615-791-9969Cell: 615-796- ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy
NPAC has a service type field that indicates wireless/wireline. That doesn't solve for native numbers though since they won't have LRN data since they don't have LRNs. I don't remember offhand if LERG has a wireless/wireline indication for a given [A]OCN or block. James Milko Architect, Network Engineering 900 Main Campus Drive Raleigh, NC 27606 Bandwidth http://www.bandwidth.com/business/ On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 11:39 AM, Alex Balashov abalas...@evaristesys.com wrote: Indeed, you'd start from the NPAC, which would get you, for a given TN, an LRN. Then what? -- Alex Balashov | Principal | Evariste Systems LLC 303 Perimeter Center North, Suite 300 Atlanta, GA 30346 United States Tel: +1-800-250-5920 (toll-free) / +1-678-954-0671 (direct) Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/, http://www.csrpswitch.com/ Sent from my BlackBerry. Original Message From: Kidd Filby Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2015 10:52 To: Carlos Alvarez Cc: voiceops@voiceops.org Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy If I were to offer this service or database access, I would start with my own local copy of NPAC that I'd update every X-minutes a day. This product is available now and has been for a while. This is the only sure-way, I know of, to have the most accurate data to work from. Kidd On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Carlos Alvarez caalva...@gmail.com wrote: I have a customer in market research who is legally required to manually dial calls to cell phones. Right now they are considering abandoning all of their auto/predictive dialer software and going to manual dial for everything, because the list-scrubbing services have been shown to be inaccurate. There are extreme penalties for auto-dialing a cell phone, and best effort is NOT a defense to this, at all. For example, Gallup just settle a claim for $12M. So they need a totally accurate way to prevent a cell phone call from originating from their dialer. The only thing I can think of is some sort of LRN dip + LRN-to-carrier-type response. One of their people talked to Neustar, but didn't get great answers because he doesn't really understand telephony. Before I get in touch with Neustar, I thought I'd see if people here have some ideas. If you provide a commercial product for this, please feel free to tell me so on or off list, the customer is willing to pay for the service and we're open to all options. I don't have a budget number yet but manual dialing is going to cost them quite a bit for some types of studies. ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops -- Kidd Filby 661.557.5640 (C) http://www.linkedin.com/in/kiddfilby ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy
I know a guy who runs a site that sells the npa nxx to carrier type at a fraction of the lerg costs On Aug 19, 2015 11:39 AM, Alex Balashov abalas...@evaristesys.com wrote: Indeed, you'd start from the NPAC, which would get you, for a given TN, an LRN. Then what? -- Alex Balashov | Principal | Evariste Systems LLC 303 Perimeter Center North, Suite 300 Atlanta, GA 30346 United States Tel: +1-800-250-5920 (toll-free) / +1-678-954-0671 (direct) Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/, http://www.csrpswitch.com/ Sent from my BlackBerry. Original Message From: Kidd Filby Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2015 10:52 To: Carlos Alvarez Cc: voiceops@voiceops.org Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy If I were to offer this service or database access, I would start with my own local copy of NPAC that I'd update every X-minutes a day. This product is available now and has been for a while. This is the only sure-way, I know of, to have the most accurate data to work from. Kidd On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Carlos Alvarez caalva...@gmail.com wrote: I have a customer in market research who is legally required to manually dial calls to cell phones. Right now they are considering abandoning all of their auto/predictive dialer software and going to manual dial for everything, because the list-scrubbing services have been shown to be inaccurate. There are extreme penalties for auto-dialing a cell phone, and best effort is NOT a defense to this, at all. For example, Gallup just settle a claim for $12M. So they need a totally accurate way to prevent a cell phone call from originating from their dialer. The only thing I can think of is some sort of LRN dip + LRN-to-carrier-type response. One of their people talked to Neustar, but didn't get great answers because he doesn't really understand telephony. Before I get in touch with Neustar, I thought I'd see if people here have some ideas. If you provide a commercial product for this, please feel free to tell me so on or off list, the customer is willing to pay for the service and we're open to all options. I don't have a budget number yet but manual dialing is going to cost them quite a bit for some types of studies. ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops -- Kidd Filby 661.557.5640 (C) http://www.linkedin.com/in/kiddfilby ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy
LERG 6 also has a portable indicator so you can tie into that when you are pulling information from NPAC, but you can also tell somewhat because all 10 thousand blocks of the non-portable blocks are only assigned to one carrier. There are still many rural areas that are not in mandatory pooling areas because the NPA doesn't warrant it! Mary Lou Carey BackUP Telecom Consulting 615-791-9969 On August 19, 2015 at 1:37 PM Kidd Filby kiddfi...@gmail.com wrote: I know there are certain areas around the country that are not portable for a few reasons. One reason is when they are served off of a remote switch, they have elaborate e911 trunking schemes and must remain on that switch to properly function in an isolation-type scenario. Kidd On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 11:39 AM, Alex Balashov abalas...@evaristesys.com mailto:abalas...@evaristesys.com wrote: Aren't 95%+ rate centres pooled these days? If so, they'd still have LRNs, since LRN-guided routing is a requirement of pooling. So, who still has non-pooled 10K blocks? Is that common in metro, or largely a trait of rural LECs? -- Alex Balashov | Principal | Evariste Systems LLC 303 Perimeter Center North, Suite 300 Atlanta, GA 30346 United States Tel: +1-800-250-5920 (toll-free) / +1-678-954-0671 (direct) Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/, http://www.csrpswitch.com/ Sent from my BlackBerry. From: James Milko Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2015 13:32 To: Alex Balashov Cc: VoiceOps Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy NPAC has a service type field that indicates wireless/wireline. That doesn't solve for native numbers though since they won't have LRN data since they don't have LRNs. I don't remember offhand if LERG has a wireless/wireline indication for a given [A]OCN or block. James Milko Architect, Network Engineering 900 Main Campus Drive Raleigh, NC 27606 Bandwidth http://www.bandwidth.com/business/ On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 11:39 AM, Alex Balashov abalas...@evaristesys.com mailto:abalas...@evaristesys.com wrote: Indeed, you'd start from the NPAC, which would get you, for a given TN, an LRN. Then what? -- Alex Balashov | Principal | Evariste Systems LLC 303 Perimeter Center North, Suite 300 Atlanta, GA 30346 United States Tel: +1-800-250-5920 (toll-free) / +1-678-954-0671 (direct) Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/, http://www.csrpswitch.com/ Sent from my BlackBerry. Original Message From: Kidd Filby Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2015 10:52 To: Carlos Alvarez Cc: voiceops@voiceops.org mailto:voiceops@voiceops.org Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy If I were to offer this service or database access, I would start with my own local copy of NPAC that I'd update every X-minutes a day. This product is available now and has been for a while. This is the only sure-way, I know of, to have the most accurate data to work from. Kidd On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Carlos Alvarez caalva...@gmail.com mailto:caalva...@gmail.com wrote: I have a customer in market research who is legally required to manually dial calls to cell phones. Right now they are considering abandoning all of their auto/predictive dialer software and going to manual dial for everything, because the list-scrubbing services have been shown to be inaccurate. There are extreme penalties for auto-dialing a cell phone, and best effort is NOT a defense to this, at all. For example, Gallup just settle a claim for $12M. So they need a totally accurate way to prevent a cell phone call from originating from their dialer. The only thing I can think of is some sort of LRN dip + LRN-to-carrier-type response. One of their people talked to Neustar, but didn't get great answers because he doesn't really understand telephony. Before I get in touch with Neustar, I thought I'd see if people here have some ideas. If you provide a commercial product for this, please feel free to tell me so on or off list, the customer is willing to pay for the service and we're open to all options. I don't have a budget number yet but manual dialing is going to cost them quite a bit for some types of studies. ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org mailto:VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops -- Kidd Filby 661.557.5640 (C) http://www.linkedin.com/in/kiddfilby
Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy
Nothing as long as companies don't offer both services. Looking up the NPA-NXX of the LRN in LERG 6 would tell you both what the service is and if the NXX is portable. Mary Lou Carey BackUP Telecom Consulting 615-791-9969 On August 19, 2015 at 1:38 PM Alex Balashov abalas...@evaristesys.com wrote: Mary Lou, What would be wrong with the following approach? 1. Dip call, receive LRN; 2. Look up OCN from LRN in LERG12. 3. Pull carrier by OCN from LERG1, retrieve 'CATEGORY' field. -- Alex -- Alex Balashov | Principal | Evariste Systems LLC 303 Perimeter Center North, Suite 300 Atlanta, GA 30346 United States Tel: +1-800-250-5920 (toll-free) / +1-678-954-0671 (direct) Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/, http://www.csrpswitch.com/ Mary Lou Carey BackUP Telecom Consulting mary...@backuptelecom.com Office: 615-791-9969 Cell: 615-796-___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy
Their lists are already cleaned by NPA-NXX, it's just not sufficient any more because of LNP. Looks like the TCPA compliance product from Neustar, which someone else posted yesterday, is the best solution. Pretty cheap too. It's just indicates intermodal porting of a number with no other info. On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 12:40 PM Paul Timmins p...@timmins.net wrote: I know a guy who runs a site that sells the npa nxx to carrier type at a fraction of the lerg costs On Aug 19, 2015 11:39 AM, Alex Balashov abalas...@evaristesys.com wrote: Indeed, you'd start from the NPAC, which would get you, for a given TN, an LRN. Then what? -- Alex Balashov | Principal | Evariste Systems LLC 303 Perimeter Center North, Suite 300 Atlanta, GA 30346 United States Tel: +1-800-250-5920 (toll-free) / +1-678-954-0671 (direct) Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/, http://www.csrpswitch.com/ Sent from my BlackBerry. Original Message From: Kidd Filby Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2015 10:52 To: Carlos Alvarez Cc: voiceops@voiceops.org Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy If I were to offer this service or database access, I would start with my own local copy of NPAC that I'd update every X-minutes a day. This product is available now and has been for a while. This is the only sure-way, I know of, to have the most accurate data to work from. Kidd On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Carlos Alvarez caalva...@gmail.com wrote: I have a customer in market research who is legally required to manually dial calls to cell phones. Right now they are considering abandoning all of their auto/predictive dialer software and going to manual dial for everything, because the list-scrubbing services have been shown to be inaccurate. There are extreme penalties for auto-dialing a cell phone, and best effort is NOT a defense to this, at all. For example, Gallup just settle a claim for $12M. So they need a totally accurate way to prevent a cell phone call from originating from their dialer. The only thing I can think of is some sort of LRN dip + LRN-to-carrier-type response. One of their people talked to Neustar, but didn't get great answers because he doesn't really understand telephony. Before I get in touch with Neustar, I thought I'd see if people here have some ideas. If you provide a commercial product for this, please feel free to tell me so on or off list, the customer is willing to pay for the service and we're open to all options. I don't have a budget number yet but manual dialing is going to cost them quite a bit for some types of studies. ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops -- Kidd Filby 661.557.5640 (C) http://www.linkedin.com/in/kiddfilby ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy
On 08/18/2015 05:00 PM, Derek Andrew wrote: Isn't it impossible to decide if a number is a cell phone or a land line because of local number portability? Not at all impossible. It could be not be further from impossible. The LRN allows you to determine where the call goes. -- Alex Balashov | Principal | Evariste Systems LLC 303 Perimeter Center North, Suite 300 Atlanta, GA 30346 United States Tel: +1-800-250-5920 (toll-free) / +1-678-954-0671 (direct) Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/, http://www.csrpswitch.com/ ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy
We use the http://www.data24-7.com/carrier24-7.php We use the product to look up carrier names, the returned data includes wireless or landline information. I'm not affiliated with them. On 8/18/2015 16:30, Carlos Alvarez wrote: I have a customer in market research who is legally required to manually dial calls to cell phones. Right now they are considering abandoning all of their auto/predictive dialer software and going to manual dial for everything, because the list-scrubbing services have been shown to be inaccurate. There are extreme penalties for auto-dialing a cell phone, and best effort is NOT a defense to this, at all. For example, Gallup just settle a claim for $12M. So they need a totally accurate way to prevent a cell phone call from originating from their dialer. The only thing I can think of is some sort of LRN dip + LRN-to-carrier-type response. One of their people talked to Neustar, but didn't get great answers because he doesn't really understand telephony. Before I get in touch with Neustar, I thought I'd see if people here have some ideas. If you provide a commercial product for this, please feel free to tell me so on or off list, the customer is willing to pay for the service and we're open to all options. I don't have a budget number yet but manual dialing is going to cost them quite a bit for some types of studies. ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy
Isn't it impossible to decide if a number is a cell phone or a land line because of local number portability? On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 2:34 PM, Matthew Crocker matt...@corp.crocker.com wrote: Depending on your switch you should be able to build a profile for the customer and reject calls going to cell phone LRN providers. Personally, I wouldn’t take on the liability of guaranteeing their auto-dialer only calls landlines. You would end up being sued if you make a mistake. IMHO, let them manually dial or find a list scrubbing company that actually works. — Matthew Crocker President - Crocker Communications, Inc. Managing Partner - Crocker Telecommunications, LLC E: matt...@corp.crocker.com E: matt...@crocker.com On Aug 18, 2015, at 4:30 PM, Carlos Alvarez caalva...@gmail.com wrote: I have a customer in market research who is legally required to manually dial calls to cell phones. Right now they are considering abandoning all of their auto/predictive dialer software and going to manual dial for everything, because the list-scrubbing services have been shown to be inaccurate. There are extreme penalties for auto-dialing a cell phone, and best effort is NOT a defense to this, at all. For example, Gallup just settle a claim for $12M. So they need a totally accurate way to prevent a cell phone call from originating from their dialer. The only thing I can think of is some sort of LRN dip + LRN-to-carrier-type response. One of their people talked to Neustar, but didn't get great answers because he doesn't really understand telephony. Before I get in touch with Neustar, I thought I'd see if people here have some ideas. If you provide a commercial product for this, please feel free to tell me so on or off list, the customer is willing to pay for the service and we're open to all options. I don't have a budget number yet but manual dialing is going to cost them quite a bit for some types of studies. ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops -- Copyright 2015 Derek Andrew (excluding quotations) University of Saskatchewan Typed but not read. ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy
Derek, Is actually right. Legislation that blocks a company from auto dialing a number based on it being a cell phone or landline is extremely difficult to prosecute. Straight talk has a home service that essentially uses a wireless carrier backbone. I can pickup the base plug it in at my neighbors house or better yet put it in my car on a power inverter and wah lah my home phone is what it truly is a cell phone with a 110-220v power supply. Number Portability would make wireline and wireless number location nearly impossible. Manual dialing would be the only way to prevent an auto dialer issue. Erik Flournoy 808-426-4527 301-218-7325 CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This e-mail message, including any attachments from EESPRO.com - contain information which is CONFIDENTIAL AND/OR LEGALLY PRIVILEGED. The information is intended only for the use of the individual named above and may not be disseminated to any other party without written permission. If you are not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution, copying or taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this e-mailed information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify i...@eespro.com, and permanently delete this e-mail and the attachments hereto, if any, and destroy any printout thereof. On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 11:00 AM, Derek Andrew derek.and...@usask.ca wrote: Isn't it impossible to decide if a number is a cell phone or a land line because of local number portability? On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 2:34 PM, Matthew Crocker matt...@corp.crocker.com wrote: Depending on your switch you should be able to build a profile for the customer and reject calls going to cell phone LRN providers. Personally, I wouldn’t take on the liability of guaranteeing their auto-dialer only calls landlines. You would end up being sued if you make a mistake. IMHO, let them manually dial or find a list scrubbing company that actually works. — Matthew Crocker President - Crocker Communications, Inc. Managing Partner - Crocker Telecommunications, LLC E: matt...@corp.crocker.com E: matt...@crocker.com On Aug 18, 2015, at 4:30 PM, Carlos Alvarez caalva...@gmail.com wrote: I have a customer in market research who is legally required to manually dial calls to cell phones. Right now they are considering abandoning all of their auto/predictive dialer software and going to manual dial for everything, because the list-scrubbing services have been shown to be inaccurate. There are extreme penalties for auto-dialing a cell phone, and best effort is NOT a defense to this, at all. For example, Gallup just settle a claim for $12M. So they need a totally accurate way to prevent a cell phone call from originating from their dialer. The only thing I can think of is some sort of LRN dip + LRN-to-carrier-type response. One of their people talked to Neustar, but didn't get great answers because he doesn't really understand telephony. Before I get in touch with Neustar, I thought I'd see if people here have some ideas. If you provide a commercial product for this, please feel free to tell me so on or off list, the customer is willing to pay for the service and we're open to all options. I don't have a budget number yet but manual dialing is going to cost them quite a bit for some types of studies. ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops -- Copyright 2015 Derek Andrew (excluding quotations) University of Saskatchewan Typed but not read. ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy
We've used DNC.com in the past which gets data from http://www.tcpacompliance.us/. That's run by Neustar directly and: Specifically, qualified users can now subscribe and receive the most up-to-date files (the Intermodal Ported Telephone Number Identification Service) consisting of nationwide ported telephone numbers that have been moved from wire line to wireless and vice versa, enabling users to avoid using auto-dialers or pre-recorded messages to call wireless numbers. They will also offer an indemnification clause if you use their service and the number was on the list to protect you. Prices were pretty reasonable and they both bulk interfaces and real time. On 08/18/2015 03:30 PM, Carlos Alvarez wrote: I have a customer in market research who is legally required to manually dial calls to cell phones. Right now they are considering abandoning all of their auto/predictive dialer software and going to manual dial for everything, because the list-scrubbing services have been shown to be inaccurate. There are extreme penalties for auto-dialing a cell phone, and best effort is NOT a defense to this, at all. For example, Gallup just settle a claim for $12M. So they need a totally accurate way to prevent a cell phone call from originating from their dialer. The only thing I can think of is some sort of LRN dip + LRN-to-carrier-type response. One of their people talked to Neustar, but didn't get great answers because he doesn't really understand telephony. Before I get in touch with Neustar, I thought I'd see if people here have some ideas. If you provide a commercial product for this, please feel free to tell me so on or off list, the customer is willing to pay for the service and we're open to all options. I don't have a budget number yet but manual dialing is going to cost them quite a bit for some types of studies. ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy
I'm going to answer a number of messages at once, because there were quite a few replies (thanks to all of you). NPA-NXX filtering is already being done, and is useless. So they also employ list scrubbing based on what appears to be old/cached LNP info or dips, and that is also insufficient both legally and practically. The data sources being used in the industry now do not appear to comply with the law. For anyone who is saying that you can't determine a cell phone due to LNP, you are wrong. Please look up these terms and you will see it's very possible: LERG, LRN, OCN As far as cell phones that are turned into home service, that's fine, we don't care about false positives. We just need to make sure that a cell number is never dialed by mistake. And the law allows a 15 day grace period from porting. On the guarantee that isn't something we'd provide, what I mean was simply a data source that is always accurate. Such as LRN-LERG testing for every call. The customer will accept ultimate responsibility. Some people recommended third-party services both on and off the list. The one concern there is again, accuracy. If the list scrubbers can't get it right...then any third party is suspect. Are they using cached data? Or acquiring data from dubious sources? I don't know. On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 2:31 PM Glen Gerhard ggerh...@sansay.com wrote: Carlos, you can get a list of all NPA-NXXs that are used by cell carrier and use that as a starting point. Then add to that the list of LRNs used by call carriers which may or may not be included in the first list. Then you need to dip your traffic and compare the DNIS/LRN to the combined list. If the number is ported the LRN will match the list. If the number is not ported and is cellular it will be in the list of NPA-NXX. If not cellular it won't match the list. Either way if there is a match to the list then you can reject the call for that customer. (I believe you are a Sansay customer so you can set up a route table with the combined list and then use it as the primary route table for those customers and then link to normal tables. I can have our support team put together the list of current NPA-NXX but you'll need a LERG6 subscription to keep it current). Good luck, ~Glen PS this message is not copyrighted nor confidential ;-) On 8/18/2015 2:14 PM, Erik Flournoy wrote: Derek, Is actually right. Legislation that blocks a company from auto dialing a number based on it being a cell phone or landline is extremely difficult to prosecute. Straight talk has a home service that essentially uses a wireless carrier backbone. I can pickup the base plug it in at my neighbors house or better yet put it in my car on a power inverter and wah lah my home phone is what it truly is a cell phone with a 110-220v power supply. Number Portability would make wireline and wireless number location nearly impossible. Manual dialing would be the only way to prevent an auto dialer issue. Erik Flournoy 808-426-4527 301-218-7325 CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This e-mail message, including any attachments from EESPRO.com - contain information which is CONFIDENTIAL AND/OR LEGALLY PRIVILEGED. The information is intended only for the use of the individual named above and may not be disseminated to any other party without written permission. If you are not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution, copying or taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this e-mailed information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify i...@eespro.com i...@eespro.com, and permanently delete this e-mail and the attachments hereto, if any, and destroy any printout thereof. On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 11:00 AM, Derek Andrew derek.and...@usask.ca wrote: Isn't it impossible to decide if a number is a cell phone or a land line because of local number portability? On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 2:34 PM, Matthew Crocker matt...@corp.crocker.com wrote: Depending on your switch you should be able to build a profile for the customer and reject calls going to cell phone LRN providers. Personally, I wouldn’t take on the liability of guaranteeing their auto-dialer only calls landlines. You would end up being sued if you make a mistake. IMHO, let them manually dial or find a list scrubbing company that actually works. — Matthew Crocker President - Crocker Communications, Inc. Managing Partner - Crocker Telecommunications, LLC E: matt...@corp.crocker.com E: matt...@crocker.com On Aug 18, 2015, at 4:30 PM, Carlos Alvarez caalva...@gmail.com wrote: I have a customer in market research who is legally required to manually dial calls to cell phones. Right now they are considering abandoning all of their auto/predictive
Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy
The official NPAC database is always up to date and is available from Neustar (for now) commercially on a per dip or per monthly charge. You can pull down the updates every 15 minutes to ensure the data is up to date for you network or you can just send them a dip for every call (Invite with 302 return). The NPAC members can get a nightly pull for the DB which means it is up to 24 hours of date, but normally that is accurate enough for wholesale providers. Due to the large liability issues, for your application you should go with the 15 minute updates or direct Neustar dips. ~Glen On 8/18/2015 3:04 PM, Carlos Alvarez wrote: I'm going to answer a number of messages at once, because there were quite a few replies (thanks to all of you). NPA-NXX filtering is already being done, and is useless. So they also employ list scrubbing based on what appears to be old/cached LNP info or dips, and that is also insufficient both legally and practically. The data sources being used in the industry now do not appear to comply with the law. For anyone who is saying that you can't determine a cell phone due to LNP, you are wrong. Please look up these terms and you will see it's very possible: LERG, LRN, OCN As far as cell phones that are turned into "home" service, that's fine, we don't care about false positives. We just need to make sure that a cell number is never dialed by mistake. And the law allows a 15 day grace period from porting. On the "guarantee" that isn't something we'd provide, what I mean was simply a data source that is always accurate. Such as LRN-LERG testing for every call. The customer will accept ultimate responsibility. Some people recommended third-party services both on and off the list. The one concern there is again, accuracy. If the list scrubbers can't get it right...then any third party is suspect. Are they using cached data? Or acquiring data from dubious sources? I don't know. On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 2:31 PM Glen Gerhard ggerh...@sansay.com wrote: Carlos, you can get a list of all NPA-NXXs that are used by cell carrier and use that as a starting point. Then add to that the list of LRNs used by call carriers which may or may not be included in the first list. Then you need to dip your traffic and compare the DNIS/LRN to the combined list. If the number is ported the LRN will match the list. If the number is not ported and is cellular it will be in the list of NPA-NXX. If not cellular it won't match the list. Either way if there is a match to the list then you can reject the call for that customer. (I believe you are a Sansay customer so you can set up a route table with the combined list and then use it as the primary route table for those customers and then link to normal tables. I can have our support team put together the list of current NPA-NXX but you'll need a LERG6 subscription to keep it current). Good luck, ~Glen PS this message is not copyrighted nor confidential ;-) On 8/18/2015 2:14 PM, Erik Flournoy wrote: Derek, Is actually right. Legislation that blocks a company from auto dialing a number based on it being a cell phone or landline is extremely difficult to prosecute. Straight talk has a home service that essentially uses a wireless carrier backbone. I can pickup the base plug it in at my neighbors house or better yet put it in my car on a power inverter and wah lah my home phone is what it truly is a cell phone with a 110-220v power supply. Number Portability would make wireline and wireless number location nearly impossible. Manual dialing would be the only way to prevent an auto dialer issue.
Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy
Have you looked at it from a call routing perspective instead of a service definition perspective? Does the FCC definition of devices/services covered by this ruling match the set of ‘things that must have a resolvable Home Location Record to receive a call’? If so, then a per-call SS7 HLR query could do the trick. David From: VoiceOps [mailto:voiceops-boun...@voiceops.org] On Behalf Of Carlos Alvarez Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2015 15:05 To: Glen Gerhard; voiceops@voiceops.org Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy I'm going to answer a number of messages at once, because there were quite a few replies (thanks to all of you). NPA-NXX filtering is already being done, and is useless. So they also employ list scrubbing based on what appears to be old/cached LNP info or dips, and that is also insufficient both legally and practically. The data sources being used in the industry now do not appear to comply with the law. For anyone who is saying that you can't determine a cell phone due to LNP, you are wrong. Please look up these terms and you will see it's very possible: LERG, LRN, OCN As far as cell phones that are turned into home service, that's fine, we don't care about false positives. We just need to make sure that a cell number is never dialed by mistake. And the law allows a 15 day grace period from porting. On the guarantee that isn't something we'd provide, what I mean was simply a data source that is always accurate. Such as LRN-LERG testing for every call. The customer will accept ultimate responsibility. Some people recommended third-party services both on and off the list. The one concern there is again, accuracy. If the list scrubbers can't get it right...then any third party is suspect. Are they using cached data? Or acquiring data from dubious sources? I don't know. On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 2:31 PM Glen Gerhard ggerh...@sansay.commailto:ggerh...@sansay.com wrote: Carlos, you can get a list of all NPA-NXXs that are used by cell carrier and use that as a starting point. Then add to that the list of LRNs used by call carriers which may or may not be included in the first list. Then you need to dip your traffic and compare the DNIS/LRN to the combined list. If the number is ported the LRN will match the list. If the number is not ported and is cellular it will be in the list of NPA-NXX. If not cellular it won't match the list. Either way if there is a match to the list then you can reject the call for that customer. (I believe you are a Sansay customer so you can set up a route table with the combined list and then use it as the primary route table for those customers and then link to normal tables. I can have our support team put together the list of current NPA-NXX but you'll need a LERG6 subscription to keep it current). Good luck, ~Glen PS this message is not copyrighted nor confidential ;-) On 8/18/2015 2:14 PM, Erik Flournoy wrote: Derek, Is actually right. Legislation that blocks a company from auto dialing a number based on it being a cell phone or landline is extremely difficult to prosecute. Straight talk has a home service that essentially uses a wireless carrier backbone. I can pickup the base plug it in at my neighbors house or better yet put it in my car on a power inverter and wah lah my home phone is what it truly is a cell phone with a 110-220v power supply. Number Portability would make wireline and wireless number location nearly impossible. Manual dialing would be the only way to prevent an auto dialer issue. Erik Flournoy 808-426-4527 301-218-7325 CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This e-mail message, including any attachments from EESPRO.com - contain information which is CONFIDENTIAL AND/OR LEGALLY PRIVILEGED. The information is intended only for the use of the individual named above and may not be disseminated to any other party without written permission. If you are not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution, copying or taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this e-mailed information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify imailto:i...@eespro.comn...@eespro.commailto:n...@eespro.com, and permanently delete this e-mail and the attachments hereto, if any, and destroy any printout thereof. On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 11:00 AM, Derek Andrew derek.and...@usask.camailto:derek.and...@usask.ca wrote: Isn't it impossible to decide if a number is a cell phone or a land line because of local number portability? On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 2:34 PM, Matthew Crocker matt...@corp.crocker.commailto:matt...@corp.crocker.com wrote: Depending on your switch you should be able to build a profile for the customer and reject calls going to cell phone LRN
Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy
Getting an LRN is easy. The real question is, is there a reliable data
source to map LRN - {wireless,RBOC,etc}?
I think this data is in the LERG, but the LERG is overkill...
--
Alex Balashov | Principal | Evariste Systems LLC
303 Perimeter Center North, Suite 300
Atlanta, GA 30346
United States
Tel: +1-800-250-5920 (toll-free) / +1-678-954-0671 (direct)
Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/, http://www.csrpswitch.com/
___
VoiceOps mailing list
VoiceOps@voiceops.org
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy
Carlos, you can get a list of all NPA-NXXs that are used by cell carrier and use that as a starting point. Then add to that the list of LRNs used by call carriers which may or may not be included in the first list. Then you need to dip your traffic and compare the DNIS/LRN to the combined list. If the number is ported the LRN will match the list. If the number is not ported and is cellular it will be in the list of NPA-NXX. If not cellular it won't match the list. Either way if there is a match to the list then you can reject the call for that customer. (I believe you are a Sansay customer so you can set up a route table with the combined list and then use it as the primary route table for those customers and then link to normal tables. I can have our support team put together the list of current NPA-NXX but you'll need a LERG6 subscription to keep it current). Good luck, ~Glen PS this message is not copyrighted nor confidential ;-) On 8/18/2015 2:14 PM, Erik Flournoy wrote: Derek, Is actually right. Legislation that blocks a company from auto dialing a number based on it being a cell phone or landline is extremely difficult to prosecute. Straight talk has a home service that essentially uses a wireless carrier backbone. I can pickup the base plug it in at my neighbors house or better yet put it in my car on a power inverter and wah lah my home phone is what it truly is a cell phone with a 110-220v power supply. Number Portability would make wireline and wireless number location nearly impossible. Manual dialing would be the only way to prevent an auto dialer issue. Erik Flournoy 808-426-4527 301-218-7325 CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This e-mail message, including any attachments from EESPRO.com - contain information which is CONFIDENTIAL AND/OR LEGALLY PRIVILEGED. The information is intended only for the use of the individual named above and may not be disseminated to any other party without written permission. If you are not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution, copying or taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this e-mailed information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify in...@eespro.com, and permanently delete this e-mail and the attachments hereto, if any, and destroy any printout thereof. On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 11:00 AM, Derek Andrew derek.and...@usask.ca wrote: Isn't it impossible to decide if a number is a cell phone or a land line because of local number portability? On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 2:34 PM, Matthew Crocker matt...@corp.crocker.com wrote: Depending on your switch you should be able to build a profile for the customer and reject calls going to cell phone LRN providers. Personally, I wouldn’t take on the liability of guaranteeing their auto-dialer only calls landlines. You would end up being sued if you make a mistake. IMHO, let them manually dial or find a list scrubbing company that actually works. — Matthew Crocker
