Re: [Vo]:nice essay Jed
Hi all Have not read the whole thread yet; might it be that the forces involved cause the Hydrogen to get sucked/pushed away from the surface into the bulk of the hydrate in preference to starting the reaction and that in the case of bulk materials the reaction only takes place when the bulk of material is full to over flowing on to the surface or in to the cracks or whiskers that form the NAE? Kind Regards walker On 8 May 2014 05:13, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, May 7, 2014 at 8:18 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.comwrote: If Ed is right and the reaction occurs only at the surface, then there would be rapid exchange with hydrogen in the water. What I do not understand about that hypothesis is: Why is high loading important, in that case? Another possibility about the role of high loading -- it's useful in PdD cold fusion because it results in a prolonged release of hydrogen to the surface. Palladium interacts with hydrogen/deuterium differently than nickel does with hydrogen. In particular, hydrogen and deuterium are more soluble in palladium than nickel, if I remember correctly. Eric
Re: [Vo]:nice essay Jed
Hi all This would explain the apparent success of the high fractal surface powders. Kind Regards walker On 8 May 2014 10:40, Ian Walker walker...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all Have not read the whole thread yet; might it be that the forces involved cause the Hydrogen to get sucked/pushed away from the surface into the bulk of the hydrate in preference to starting the reaction and that in the case of bulk materials the reaction only takes place when the bulk of material is full to over flowing on to the surface or in to the cracks or whiskers that form the NAE? Kind Regards walker On 8 May 2014 05:13, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, May 7, 2014 at 8:18 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.comwrote: If Ed is right and the reaction occurs only at the surface, then there would be rapid exchange with hydrogen in the water. What I do not understand about that hypothesis is: Why is high loading important, in that case? Another possibility about the role of high loading -- it's useful in PdD cold fusion because it results in a prolonged release of hydrogen to the surface. Palladium interacts with hydrogen/deuterium differently than nickel does with hydrogen. In particular, hydrogen and deuterium are more soluble in palladium than nickel, if I remember correctly. Eric
RE: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:nice essay Jed
Agree it is relevant to power density and less so for energy density since it is only certain metal lattices that possess this property and the property is far more dependent of the broken geometries of the lattice..how often and to what extent defects occur seems more important than the volume even to the point where researches have to track manufacturers and lot numbers of the metal lattice to be certain they get the same materials capable of exhibiting these anomalous properties. I disagree with this portion of your reply [snip] Since the actual source of energy is likely to be the Hydrogen in the water, not the actual cathode metal, the volume of the cathode is pretty much irrelevant [/snip] Yes the energy may come from the gas but it is the lattice confinement and change in level of confinement at the defects that provide the environment that liberates this normally inaccessible source of energy from hydrogen - We don't have to accept ZPE, hydrino or hydrotron to all agree that defects in lattice geometry, their population density and their topologies allow this energy to be produced such that you have to consider the hydrogen and the containment together as the actual energy source so Jeds' focus on the cathode geometry as a crude metric seems viable. Fran -Original Message- From: mix...@bigpond.com [mailto:mix...@bigpond.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2014 11:05 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:nice essay Jed In reply to fznidar...@aol.com's message of Wed, 7 May 2014 20:09:04 -0400 (EDT): Hi, [snip] http://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/2000 One thing I take issue with (more with standard practice in the CF community than with Jed in particular) is the use of the volume of the cathode in calculating energy density. Since the actual source of energy is likely to be the Hydrogen in the water, not the actual cathode metal, the volume of the cathode is pretty much irrelevant. (It is probably relevant for power density, but not energy density). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
[Vo]:Symphony7 Reactor
Greetings Vortex-L Not sure if this has been covered before: http://www.e-catworld.com/2014/05/08/solar-hydrogen-trends-claim-hydrogen-production-process-is-lenrtransmutation/ Ron Kita, Chiralex
Re: [Vo]:nice essay Jed
High loading would lend itself well to a ZPE underpinning of the anomaly because COE says that you cannot exploit HUP derived gas motion – that is you can’t build a Maxwellian demon that sorts hot from cold atoms or separates atomic from molecular to build opposing reservoirs as an energy sources since the motion is totally random and so slight that a singular device per atom is impossible and larger containments simply cancel out in our 3D macro world before they can be contained, but the saturated layer of gas in contact with a lattice topology full of defects approaches a 1D limit where that random motion is confined onto a single axis where said cancellation takes longer to occur and forces the layer to move back and forth across a region of space where the virtual particle density is changing at a rate that violates the isotropy of square law[forming a grater]. IMHO this operates like a saw that discounts the energy needed to disassociate gas molecules in violation of the caveat COE requires of gas law – A one Dimensional exception to COE that I believe is the bootstrap for these anomalies based on a self assembled type of Maxwell demon that uses HUP to discount molecular disassociation by opposing molecular motion vs atomic motion at a different ratio than it does in the unbroken isotropy of our 3D macro world. I suspect similar math would be apparent for relativistic hydrogen but there COE works out fine because we are supplying energy to accelerate the hydrogen thru the isotropy to force relativistic effects while inside bulk powders or skeletal cats no one is treating these defects with the same respect because we have all been told catalytic action like gas motion can not provide power….I disagree and propose the caveat should be amended to say can’t be exploited in 3D which leaves the door open for exploitation thru confinement. Fran From: Ian Walker [mailto:walker...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2014 5:46 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:nice essay Jed Hi all This would explain the apparent success of the high fractal surface powders. Kind Regards walker On 8 May 2014 10:40, Ian Walker walker...@gmail.commailto:walker...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all Have not read the whole thread yet; might it be that the forces involved cause the Hydrogen to get sucked/pushed away from the surface into the bulk of the hydrate in preference to starting the reaction and that in the case of bulk materials the reaction only takes place when the bulk of material is full to over flowing on to the surface or in to the cracks or whiskers that form the NAE? Kind Regards walker On 8 May 2014 05:13, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.commailto:eric.wal...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, May 7, 2014 at 8:18 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.commailto:jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: If Ed is right and the reaction occurs only at the surface, then there would be rapid exchange with hydrogen in the water. What I do not understand about that hypothesis is: Why is high loading important, in that case? Another possibility about the role of high loading -- it's useful in PdD cold fusion because it results in a prolonged release of hydrogen to the surface. Palladium interacts with hydrogen/deuterium differently than nickel does with hydrogen. In particular, hydrogen and deuterium are more soluble in palladium than nickel, if I remember correctly. Eric
RE: [Vo]:nice essay Jed
One further detail to put under the microscope, since the devil is in the details… As a general rule – therefore it can be said that there is no correlation between loading ratio and heat unless it is related to isotopes, meaning that this detail about the lack of any correlation can be limited to hydrogen (protium) and does not necessarily apply to deuterium. In tests done for EPRI, Ahern tested an alloy of nickel and palladium which stored 4 times more hydrogen than did palladium. When nano Palladium was used as a pure metal, the hydrogen ratio was close to 1:1. With this NiPd alloy, the hydrogen storage ratio was almost 4:1 yet the much higher loading alloy was NOT the best performer for thermal gain with hydrogen. Notably Ahern did not test any alloys with deuterium. There is plenty of evidence with deuterium - that loading ratio is well-correlated to excess heat. Moreover, all of Ahern’s loaded nano nickel alloys showed some thermal gain when the temperature was raised near the Curie point of nickel, in contrast to nano-titanium for instance, which showed no thermal gain at the same temperature. Since this parameter (raising the temperature this high) was never done in the prior 5 decades of research - in the mainstream quest to maximize hydrogen storage in metals, then taking everything together, we can make several conclusions based on what is in the record. These are conclusion about what factors are active for thermal gain with hydrogen and not deuterium in testing which has be replicated by other groups. Loading is not important with hydrogen, based on this testing - since the alloy which performed the best (copper-nickel) loaded poorly, and the alloy which loaded highest was gainful, but not the best. The second is that to see any thermal gain with hydrogen, the matrix alloy needs to be raised to near the Curie point. With deuterium, Cravens has shown that gain can be seen at a low temperature. Since these conclusions with hydrogen are very different from the case with deuterium loading, the message stands out unequivocally for me at least - that we are dealing with TWO DIFFERENT routes to thermal gain. Jones attachment: winmail.dat
Re: [Vo]:nice essay Jed
Jones wrote-- As a general rule – therefore it can be said that there is no correlation between loading ratio and heat unless it is related to isotopes, meaning that this detail about the lack of any correlation can be limited to hydrogen (protium) and does not necessarily apply to deuterium I do not agree. If the loading causes micro cracking in the Pd matrix, it very well may correlate with heat. Micro cracking would apply equally to H and D and thus would suggest that D is necessary for the NAE reaction to occur in Pd. Since the loading near the surface is significantly greater than away from the surface, the cracking near the surface could be expected to be more frequent with higher NAE density. Bob - Original Message - From: Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2014 7:02 AM Subject: RE: [Vo]:nice essay Jed Eric Walker wrote: Jed Rothwell wrote: If Ed is right and the reaction occurs only at the surface, then there would be rapid exchange with hydrogen in the water. What I do not understand about that hypothesis is: Why is high loading important, in that case? Another possibility about the role of high loading -- it's useful in PdD cold fusion because it results in a prolonged release of hydrogen to the surface. Palladium interacts with hydrogen/deuterium differently than nickel does with hydrogen. In particular, hydrogen and deuterium are more soluble in palladium than nickel, if I remember correctly. It should be clear that “Palladium interacts with hydrogen/deuterium differently than nickel does with hydrogen,” as Eric says, but somehow that message gets lost in the effort to simplify (that which cannot be simplified). Ed Storms consistently overlooks this fact, in a tireless but failing effort to promote his theory - and yet it is fact. This goes back to mainstream science and hydrogen storage materials. It there was any kind of basic connection between high loading with hydrogen, and excess heat - it would have turned up long ago in the quest for better hydrogen storage materials. In terms of laboratory expenditure, a factor of perhaps 10-100 times more effort, man-hours and money has been spent by mainstream science in an effort to maximize hydrogen storage in metals than for LENR. This effort goes all the way back to the 1950s for storing rocket propellants for thrusters. Many of the metals were nickel-based. In all of that work no evidence of excess heat has turned up – and it was a huge coordinated effort to maximize hydrogen storage, in which researchers were very careful about measuring for heat – since adding heat is the precise way that hydrogen is released from storage in a metal matrix. As a general rule – therefore it can be said that there is no correlation between loading ratio and heat unless it is related to isotopes, meaning that this detail about the lack of any correlation can be limited to hydrogen (protium) and does not necessarily apply to deuterium. Jones
Re: [Vo]:nice essay Jed
If the Pd-Ni alloy is face centered cubic matrix, it would have 3.75 Pd and/or Ni nuclei per cell (1/2 nucleus on each cell face and 1/8 nucleus at each corner of the cell) . With 4:1 loading it means that there are more than 2 or more nuclei of D or H, as the case may, in some cells. This could surely crowd the D or H closely together, particularly if there is a magnetic field that causes a degenerative set of possible positions in the cell. All this increases the chance for D fusion with distribution of the excess energy to the other spin receptive particles in the matrix. No kinetic energy is needed to fractionate the energy, only angular momentum (spin) energy. Bob - Original Message - From: Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2014 7:56 AM Subject: RE: [Vo]:nice essay Jed One further detail to put under the microscope, since the devil is in the details… As a general rule – therefore it can be said that there is no correlation between loading ratio and heat unless it is related to isotopes, meaning that this detail about the lack of any correlation can be limited to hydrogen (protium) and does not necessarily apply to deuterium. In tests done for EPRI, Ahern tested an alloy of nickel and palladium which stored 4 times more hydrogen than did palladium. When nano Palladium was used as a pure metal, the hydrogen ratio was close to 1:1. With this NiPd alloy, the hydrogen storage ratio was almost 4:1 yet the much higher loading alloy was NOT the best performer for thermal gain with hydrogen. Notably Ahern did not test any alloys with deuterium. There is plenty of evidence with deuterium - that loading ratio is well-correlated to excess heat. Moreover, all of Ahern’s loaded nano nickel alloys showed some thermal gain when the temperature was raised near the Curie point of nickel, in contrast to nano-titanium for instance, which showed no thermal gain at the same temperature. Since this parameter (raising the temperature this high) was never done in the prior 5 decades of research - in the mainstream quest to maximize hydrogen storage in metals, then taking everything together, we can make several conclusions based on what is in the record. These are conclusion about what factors are active for thermal gain with hydrogen and not deuterium in testing which has be replicated by other groups. Loading is not important with hydrogen, based on this testing - since the alloy which performed the best (copper-nickel) loaded poorly, and the alloy which loaded highest was gainful, but not the best. The second is that to see any thermal gain with hydrogen, the matrix alloy needs to be raised to near the Curie point. With deuterium, Cravens has shown that gain can be seen at a low temperature. Since these conclusions with hydrogen are very different from the case with deuterium loading, the message stands out unequivocally for me at least - that we are dealing with TWO DIFFERENT routes to thermal gain. Jones
RE: [Vo]:nice essay Jed
-Original Message- From: Bob Cook As a general rule – therefore it can be said that there is no correlation between loading ratio and heat unless it is related to isotopes, meaning that this detail about the lack of any correlation can be limited to hydrogen (protium) and does not necessarily apply to deuterium I do not agree. If the loading causes micro cracking in the Pd matrix, it very well may correlate with heat. Micro cracking would apply equally to H and D and thus would suggest that D is necessary for the NAE reaction to occur in Pd. Since the loading near the surface is significantly greater than away from the surface, the cracking near the surface could be expected to be more frequent with higher NAE density. Bob, Yes, micro cracking would apply equally. But your logical error is in assuming that cracking is necessary for gain. It isn't, depending of course on how it is defined. Cracking is one of many possible routes to gain and NOT the only route by far. At the nanoscale, it would be irrelevant anyway. In the Pd matrix for instance, cracking correlates to excess heat with deuterium, and NOT with hydrogen. In fact some of the SEM images of the Arata-type particles which give excess heat with nickel have no cracking per se, since they are essentially too small to crack. This material is active for hydrogen and has no cracking. I believe Brad Lowe may be sending some of his supply to Quantum Heat. http://www.quantumheat.org/images/NanoPowders/Quantum_Sphere_Nano_Nickel_SEM.jpg
Re: [Vo]:Vector Potential Wave Radio
Just got off the phone with the author and he doesn't see any indication Tesla was onto the vector potential -- which Maxwell called electrokinetic momentum. BTW: He says Maxwell made no bones about the physical reality of electrokinetic momentum -- he was quite clear it was physical. On Wed, May 7, 2014 at 11:40 AM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: November 1922 interview in *Radio News*: Question : Will not wireless transmission of energy result in time in the moving of practically all means of transportation with electrical energy from central power stations? MR. TESLA : No, I do not expect that such will be the case, for the transportation systems now used present certain important practical advantages which cannot be disregarded. Question: Will not automobiles, for instance, be operated merely by the operative cutting in on electrical energy supplied by wireless from power stations? MR. TESLA : I fear we shall not live to see the wireless system in general use for this purpose. It is difficult to propel an automobile by the new method for reasons with which experts are familiar. Success can be much more easily achieved in the case of airships. …. Well… substitute “drone” for “airship”, and this comment is possibly relevant today… Jones
Re: [Vo]:nice essay Jed
On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 6:56 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: -Original Message- From: Bob Cook As a general rule – therefore it can be said that there is no correlation between loading ratio and heat unless it is related to isotopes, meaning that this detail about the lack of any correlation can be limited to hydrogen (protium) and does not necessarily apply to deuterium I do not agree. If the loading causes micro cracking in the Pd matrix, it very well may correlate with heat. Micro cracking would apply equally to H and D and thus would suggest that D is necessary for the NAE reaction to occur in Pd. Since the loading near the surface is significantly greater than away from the surface, the cracking near the surface could be expected to be more frequent with higher NAE density. Bob, Yes, micro cracking would apply equally. But your logical error is in assuming that cracking is necessary for gain. It isn't, depending of course on how it is defined. Cracking is one of many possible routes to gain and NOT the only route by far. At the nanoscale, it would be irrelevant anyway. In the Pd matrix for instance, cracking correlates to excess heat with deuterium, and NOT with hydrogen. In fact some of the SEM images of the Arata-type particles which give excess heat with nickel have no cracking per se, since they are essentially too small to crack. This material is active for hydrogen and has no cracking. I believe Brad Lowe may be sending some of his supply to Quantum Heat. http://www.quantumheat.org/images/NanoPowders/Quantum_Sphere_Nano_Nickel_SEM.jpg I think that this discussion will end without an unanimously accepted conclusion; this happens in the 26th year of Cold Fusion history- isn't this disturbing? Add to this the fact that excess heat happens only in a few cases of many for all the parameters described here, so we have a problem. A wicked problem. Taking in account this essential problem solving rule: NOT what we know, but what we don‟t know is more important for solving the problem. it is very plausible that we still do NOT KNOW something vital for excess heat to happen and io be useful and controllable. It seems there are unknown, hidden parameters- and these are even more relevant than those discussed here.One of these could be the presence of gases (any gas that is not hydrogen, all the components of air) on the active surfaces. JUst to mention that today is the 17th anniversary of my first formulation of this poisoning hypothesis that was never taken seriously by my colleagues working with Pd D. On the NiH line, Piantelli and Defkalion claim deep degassing i.e. aliengas-free surfaces area sine qua non condition of excess heat. This discussion has started from Jed's FQXI essay. An essay with a very significant title (not content) for CF is You cannot live in the Cradle forever However if you do not want to grow and mature, the Cradle is just fine. Peter -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
Re: [Vo]:nice essay Jed
Peter, Just for the record I do take poisoning seriously and think the catalysts should be manufactured and maintained in vacuum except for the active gas under test. IMHO the nano powder geometry would become smaller and more robust in suppressing vacuum density if milled in a vacuum where ambient gases are not able to interact with the surfaces. Even chemically inert gas atoms might act like sand blasters at this scale if allowed to load into the bulk. Presently we need to saturate the lattice to strong arm this anomaly into existence but I suspect a very slight pressure would out perform this method if used with a vacuum maintained super catalyst or powder – the heat sinking would need to be engaged and robust before any gas enters the lattice because Pattersons beads and Naudins MAHG tube support my theory that the most active geometry immediately self destructs or reshapes thru plasticity to reduce the stiction forces –my point is that stiction may only be the little brother to a much larger force at a smaller geometry. Fran Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2014 2:41 PM To: VORTEX Subject: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:nice essay Jed On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 6:56 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.netmailto:jone...@pacbell.net wrote: -Original Message- From: Bob Cook As a general rule – therefore it can be said that there is no correlation between loading ratio and heat unless it is related to isotopes, meaning that this detail about the lack of any correlation can be limited to hydrogen (protium) and does not necessarily apply to deuterium I do not agree. If the loading causes micro cracking in the Pd matrix, it very well may correlate with heat. Micro cracking would apply equally to H and D and thus would suggest that D is necessary for the NAE reaction to occur in Pd. Since the loading near the surface is significantly greater than away from the surface, the cracking near the surface could be expected to be more frequent with higher NAE density. Bob, Yes, micro cracking would apply equally. But your logical error is in assuming that cracking is necessary for gain. It isn't, depending of course on how it is defined. Cracking is one of many possible routes to gain and NOT the only route by far. At the nanoscale, it would be irrelevant anyway. In the Pd matrix for instance, cracking correlates to excess heat with deuterium, and NOT with hydrogen. In fact some of the SEM images of the Arata-type particles which give excess heat with nickel have no cracking per se, since they are essentially too small to crack. This material is active for hydrogen and has no cracking. I believe Brad Lowe may be sending some of his supply to Quantum Heat. http://www.quantumheat.org/images/NanoPowders/Quantum_Sphere_Nano_Nickel_SEM.jpg I think that this discussion will end without an unanimously accepted conclusion; this happens in the 26th year of Cold Fusion history- isn't this disturbing? Add to this the fact that excess heat happens only in a few cases of many for all the parameters described here, so we have a problem. A wicked problem. Taking in account this essential problem solving rule: NOT what we know, but what we don‟t know is more important for solving the problem. it is very plausible that we still do NOT KNOW something vital for excess heat to happen and io be useful and controllable. It seems there are unknown, hidden parameters- and these are even more relevant than those discussed here.One of these could be the presence of gases (any gas that is not hydrogen, all the components of air) on the active surfaces. JUst to mention that today is the 17th anniversary of my first formulation of this poisoning hypothesis that was never taken seriously by my colleagues working with Pd D. On the NiH line, Piantelli and Defkalion claim deep degassing i.e. aliengas-free surfaces area sine qua non condition of excess heat. This discussion has started from Jed's FQXI essay. An essay with a very significant title (not content) for CF is You cannot live in the Cradle forever However if you do not want to grow and mature, the Cradle is just fine. Peter -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
Re: [Vo]:nice essay Jed
In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Wed, 7 May 2014 23:18:00 -0400: Hi, [snip] mix...@bigpond.com wrote: One thing I take issue with (more with standard practice in the CF community than with Jed in particular) is the use of the volume of the cathode in calculating energy density. Since the actual source of energy is likely to be the Hydrogen in the water, not the actual cathode metal . . . Some people say the hydrogen is not very mobile once the reaction starts up. What you have in the cathode is what there is. If this were true, then the current could be turned off as soon as the reaction starts, and it wouldn't make any difference, since the suggestion is that the reaction is not dependent upon a feed of Hydrogen. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:nice essay Jed
In reply to Roarty, Francis X's message of Thu, 8 May 2014 11:27:09 +: Hi, [snip] I disagree with this portion of your reply [snip] Since the actual source of energy is likely to be the Hydrogen in the water, not the actual cathode metal, the volume of the cathode is pretty much irrelevant [/snip] Yes the energy may come from the gas but it is the lattice confinement and change in level of confinement at the defects that provide the environment that liberates this normally inaccessible source of energy from hydrogen - We don't have to accept ZPE, hydrino or hydrotron to all agree that defects in lattice geometry, their population density and their topologies allow this energy to be produced such that you have to consider the hydrogen and the containment together as the actual energy source so Jeds' focus on the cathode geometry as a crude metric seems viable. This would only be true if the NAE was destroyed when the reaction happened, and were incapable of reforming. If either of these two are not true, then the cathode (for want of a more general term) has to be considered to be an engine and the Hydrogen has to be considered the fuel. You do not calculate the energy density of engines. You calculate the energy density of fuels. (Unless as Jed mentioned, you are stuck with the Hydrogen in the cathode, and it is not replaceable - in which case the outlook for CF is far more restricted.) Note however that both Rossi Defkalion appear to use a regular supply of external Hydrogen. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:nice essay Jed
mix...@bigpond.com wrote: You do not calculate the energy density of engines. You calculate the energy density of fuels. (Unless as Jed mentioned, you are stuck with the Hydrogen in the cathode, and it is not replaceable - in which case the outlook for CF is far more restricted.) I do not think that would be a major problem. It is easy to work around it. First, a well-established fact: The reaction produces helium. Roughly half of that comes out of metal, and the other half goes deeper in, and McKubre points out. That tells us that some gas does get trapped in the metal, and even the dynamic flux of an active cold fusion cell does not drive it out automatically. Of course, helium is not hydrogen, but still, it does indicate there is trapped gas. Now for some speculation. Suppose that gas loading, electrolysis and other methods all depend on a trapped supply of hydrogen in the metal, as I suggested. We still know how to drive the hydrogen and helium out, by various methods. We may have to turn off the reaction while doing that, and then reload the metal and start it up again. That would be a problem if entire machine ran with a single metal cathode, or one single discrete batch of gas loaded powder. But there is not need to make it that way. If the load/deload duty cycles were about equal, that means you need 10 cathodes to do the work that 5 cathodes could do full time. That is of no importance, except that it makes the machine a little less compact than it would be otherwise. You would not grouse about it any more than you would complain that a 6-cylinder automobile ICE fires only one cylinder at a time, so it operates at 1/6 of total capacity. (Actually some early ICEs and Diesel engines had only one cylinder, but I expect they vibrated like the dickens and made a lot of noise.) Controlling and keeping track of the load/deload cycles would call for sophisticated computer controls, but any kind of cold fusion engine will need this. It will call for multiple independently sealed cell, rather than a single discrete cell. That will make manufacturing a little more complicated, but with robotic assembly lines it will hardly affect the cost. Nowadays, increased complexity does not increase the cost of machinery much, and it does not reduce reliability. That is why hybrid automobiles work so well. It is worth the trade-off in complexity, even though you end up with a machine that can only be assembled by robots, and that can only be operated with computer controls. - Jed
Re: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:nice essay Jed
That's for deuterium! No one knows what happens with H! 2014-05-08 20:50 GMT-03:00 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com: First, a well-established fact: The reaction produces helium. -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:nice essay Jed
Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: That's for deuterium! No one knows what happens with H! Well, I suppose it produces some other gas, probably deuterium. But the point I was trying to make is that only half of the helium emerges. The rest is trapped. So there is no process going on that quickly and forcefully empties out the lattice and replaces all the gas in it. I do not think it is likely that the deuterium is be forced out and replaced, but the helium remains trapped. - Jed
[Vo]:Thorium Energy Alliance 6th Annual Conference
May 29 - 30, 2014, Chicago, IL See: http://www.thoriumenergyalliance.com/ThoriumSite/TEAC6.html
Re: [Vo]:Thorium Energy Alliance 6th Annual Conference
See what? 2014-05-08 22:45 GMT-03:00 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com: [image: Boxbe] https://www.boxbe.com/overview This message is eligible for Automatic Cleanup! (jedrothw...@gmail.com) Add cleanup rulehttps://www.boxbe.com/popup?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.boxbe.com%2Fcleanup%3Ftoken%3DBU6uq%252FE9j5557tYnjd5KM0Rhw28TXHPtZCpYMt7k%252BOsuLM4lAMyqlZXduq1dZjAx6GgN0EfrNhCMAeqXSUfN7cn%252BSjk8%252BRBv6a5W05G6LZJsihV4yhm7eqa9HH8%252Ff%252F4tTo0epII4g22oRFYofa7Bjw%253D%253D%26key%3DO7sNggLCM9XOmaojWPQjis1yz%252B9hdKSV3TvI0uQy47U%253Dtc_serial=17185917258tc_rand=818787216utm_source=stfutm_medium=emailutm_campaign=ANNO_CLEANUP_ADDutm_content=001| More infohttp://blog.boxbe.com/general/boxbe-automatic-cleanup?tc_serial=17185917258tc_rand=818787216utm_source=stfutm_medium=emailutm_campaign=ANNO_CLEANUP_ADDutm_content=001 May 29 - 30, 2014, Chicago, IL See: http://www.thoriumenergyalliance.com/ThoriumSite/TEAC6.html -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:Thorium Energy Alliance 6th Annual Conference
Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: See what? I see that Gmail and Boxbe spam filter have collaborated to make your messages go bonkers. Gmail thought that message I just sent was spam. See this: http://www.thoriumenergyalliance.com/ThoriumSite/TEAC6.html - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Thorium Energy Alliance 6th Annual Conference
No, I saw that! :) But I don't get the what I should look for in that site... 2014-05-08 23:12 GMT-03:00 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com: Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: See what? I see that Gmail and Boxbe spam filter have collaborated to make your messages go bonkers. Gmail thought that message I just sent was spam. See this: http://www.thoriumenergyalliance.com/ThoriumSite/TEAC6.html - Jed -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:nice essay Jed
On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 4:50 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Of course, helium is not hydrogen, but still, it does indicate there is trapped gas. For palladium and deuterium, where we know 4He is produced, 4He is immobile in bulk palladium, while deuterium will escape over time. The 4He gets stuck in a way that H or D does not, as I remember. An implication is that to measure the full amount of 4He that has been produced in a PdD system, it is advisable to melt down a cathode to get at the 4He trapped in the bulk. One reason people have suspected that PdD cold fusion is due to a surface or near surface reaction is that 4He is found near the surface and with decreasing probability further into the used cathode, where a clean sample does not show such a pattern (I think). But I believe the deuterium itself will gradually escape from palladium over time, like air leaking from a balloon. The dynamic with hydrogen and nickel is probably different with regard to this detail at least, as nickel, unalloyed, does not appear to readily absorb hydrogen in the way that unalloyed palladium does. I assume that loading is something that is only indirectly related to PdD cold fusion, and the actual mechanism simply depends upon a ready supply of deuterium, something that is accomplished in NiH system by having an additional source of hydrogen that releases it over time, e.g., when it is heated. But this is just speculation on my part. Eric
