RE: [Vo]:Once again, I advise Defkalion to show Stremmenos their reactors
Initially, I found myself speculating that DGT's seeming reluctance to invite Stremmenos to their labs would seem to imply that if he did come and observe what they have in-house Stremmenos might uncover strong evidence to the effect that reverse engineering of Rossi's eCat design had occurred. But then... DGT sez Stremmenos can come and visit the labs anytime he wants to since they say he is still a board member. So, this begs the question: why doesn't Stremmenos go to DGT's labs and take a look around. I take it he could do just that anytime he wants to. Right? This makes no sense. At present this suggests to me the possibility that Stremmenos has deliberately chosen not to visit DGT's labs - presumably for some strategic reason that at present remains unclear to the general public - including a very baffled Vort Collective. This behavior as perceived from both sides of the fence suggest to me the possibility that both parties have something to hide. What that might be is still not clear to me. I find myself wondering if this is all but a staged drama in an effort to temporarily throw more confusion and obfuscation in the general direction of potential competitors, and that both sides are in collusion on the matter. ... but that is just unfounded speculation on my part. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Once again, I advise Defkalion to show Stremmenos their reactors
I think people coming from a country with a relatively normal history re not able to understand well the behaviour of people coming from a country that was once a dictature- as Greece (or Romania.) Stremmenos and the leaders of DGT have been comrades in fighting against the military regime- and such an experience unites people. A friend is a friend and will not become an enemy even if they are now in opposed camps.Plus Stremmenos is the organizer of this action- he brought Rossi and his compatriots together. He is probably very disappointed that the deal failed and is mesmerised by Rossi. An unfortunate situation with no fast or radical.solution. Something similar with Rossi- he has insulted DGT- clowns- anyway snakes is much worse- but he has created the technology (it is not so relevant -from what?) and beyond any doubt he has made LENR a popular subject. This story is stiil in evolution. Peter On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 3:48 PM, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson orionwo...@charter.net wrote: Initially, I found myself speculating that DGT's seeming reluctance to invite Stremmenos to their labs would seem to imply that if he did come and observe what they have in-house Stremmenos might uncover strong evidence to the effect that reverse engineering of Rossi's eCat design had occurred. But then... DGT sez Stremmenos can come and visit the labs anytime he wants to since they say he is still a board member. So, this begs the question: why doesn't Stremmenos go to DGT's labs and take a look around. I take it he could do just that anytime he wants to. Right? This makes no sense. At present this suggests to me the possibility that Stremmenos has deliberately chosen not to visit DGT's labs - presumably for some strategic reason that at present remains unclear to the general public - including a very baffled Vort Collective. This behavior as perceived from both sides of the fence suggest to me the possibility that both parties have something to hide. What that might be is still not clear to me. I find myself wondering if this is all but a staged drama in an effort to temporarily throw more confusion and obfuscation in the general direction of potential competitors, and that both sides are in collusion on the matter. ... but that is just unfounded speculation on my part. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
Re: [Vo]:Once again, I advise Defkalion to show Stremmenos their reactors
OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson orionwo...@charter.net wrote: So, this begs the question: why doesn't Stremmenos go to DGT's labs and take a look around. I take it he could do just that anytime he wants to. Right? This makes no sense. It is the damnedest thing I have seen in a long time. Mind boggling. The person representing Defkalion does not seem to understand what I am saying. He or she accuses me of claiming there is evidence of a crime when I said there is an accusation. That's a huge difference! This person does not seem to have a firm grasp of how business works. Either that or business in Greece is very different from the U.S. and Japan. Here is the latest confusion: Dear Mr Rothwell Still you have not provided any evidence on criminal action nor apologized for that. As you use to say *do not think that and words have no consequences.* In all coultures, conflict of interest is conflict of interest. Thank you, also, for confirming our story on the role of sceptics and fans. DGT Defkalion GT wrote: Still you have not provided any evidence on criminal action nor apologized for that. As you use to say *do not think that and words have no consequences.* I did not say there is evidence. Please do not distort my words. I said -- quite clearly -- there is an accusation of criminal behavior in the mass media. A member of your Board of Directors says you are engaged in serious false advertising. I said -- again, quite clearly -- you are probably NOT committing a crime. I wrote: I do not suppose that Stremmenos and Rossi are correct. I assume there is a misunderstanding . . . It would be easy for you prove you have the technology. I suggest you do this. There is no conflict of interest because I have no ownership or stake in your company. I think you should stop distorting what I say, apologize to me, and address the issues. I do not think I can get the message through. I suppose they do not want to hear it. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Once again, I advise Defkalion to show Stremmenos their reactors
Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com wrote: I think people coming from a country with a relatively normal history re not able to understand well the behaviour of people coming from a country that was once a dictature- as Greece (or Romania.) I knew lots of people who lived through the militarist dictatorship in Japan. They did not act as irrationally as Defkalion appears to be acting. I say appears to be because there may be some hidden reason for them to be saying these weird things. I suppose it is possible that Stremmenos is right, Defkalion has no technology, and they are running a gigantic swindle. If so, they are doing a terrible job at it. They are amateur con-men, who inspire no confidence. I can't imagine how they could attract investors with a member of their Board going around saying stuff like this! An investor will do a Google search and find out the company is mired in the worst controversy a start-up company could be mired in. Their response to me would not reassure an investor, or deflect doubt. The response looks to me like confusion, rather than an attempt to evade the issue. I get a sense they honestly do not understand what I am saying. Even though I have said it as clearly as I can, and it is not complicated. You don't know whether to laugh or cry. It is a shame that cold fusion ventures so often end up tangled in confusion, anger, broken contracts, and lurid accusations. I hope this confusion -- or whatever it is -- is cleared up soon. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Once again, I advise Defkalion to show Stremmenos their reactors
Glad you responded to DGT, Jed, You conclude with: I do not think I can get the message through. I suppose they do not want to hear it. I'm inclined to speculate that, yes, they HAVE gotten your message. They probably got your message long ago. But perhaps, for strategic business reasons, they continue to deliberately obfuscate the issue by exercising the art of deflection and misdirection. Meanwhile, Peter Gluck recently shared some interesting observations about lasting loyalties even while two parties, on the surface, would seem to be on opposite sides of the fence. I agree with Peter in the sense that This story is still in evolution. Yes! It most certainly is! Again, I'm left with the impression that this drama remains a drama primarily because BOTH parties have come to the conclusion that at present it is in their best interest to maintain the drama, as perceived in the eyes of the public. As I believe you have pointed out, it would seem that this issues could easily be resolved if Stremmenos were to simply visit DGT's labs. But Stremmenos doesn't. I think he doesn't for a reason... a strategic reason. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Once again, I advise Defkalion to show Stremmenos their reactors
Let me expand on some thoughts. I gather Stremmenos has yet to visit DGT's labs. Why? Several scenarios come to mind: * If Stremmenos were to discover the fact that DGT's hyperons are authentic, and that have created their own version of the secret sauce, it would essentially authenticate DGT's technology in the eyes of potential business investors. Maybe Stremmenos does not wish to gamble on that possibility. It could potentially hurt Rossi's business plans. It might also shed too much light on CF technology when they have not yet gotten all their ducks lined up. * If Stremmenos were to discover the fact that DGT's hyperons are authentic, and that they contain THE EXACT SAME RECIPE of the secret sauce, again it would essentially authenticate Rossi's technology in the eyes of potential business investors. Maybe Stremmenos does not wish to gamble on that possibility either. Again, it might shed too much light on CF technology when they have not yet got all their ducks lined up. * If Stremmenos were to discover the fact that DGT's hyperons AREN'T authentic, and that they don't contain the secret sauce, it would essentially falsify DGT's technology in the eyes of potential business investors. Strange as it might seem to say, perhaps Stremmenos does not wish to gamble on that possibility as well. Again, it might shed too much light on CF technology when everyone has not yet gotten all their ducks lined up. I think there is the real fear that the fallout of such a discovery could essentially boomerang back and reflect unfavorably on Rossi's technology as well. Despite all the drama that is currently playing out in the public domain, if both parties still feel they have a sufficient number of customers interested in purchasing their controversial products, then that would imply that there are still plenty of business deals to be made. It suggests that at present the pie is big enough for both parties to play in. However, at present nobody wants the pie to get much bigger that it currently is. I suspect the current collection customers might feel the same way as well. It would be in their best interest to keep potential competitors believing that the technology is too risky (or too bogus) to invest in. IOW, Keep the competition (and the evil eye of the DoE) guessing. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Once again, I advise Defkalion to show Stremmenos their reactors
Any dictature breeds irrationalities and it is difficult to compare Japan's imperialist one seemingly very popular with the Greek one hated by the democratic people. And the kamikaze were lead by a very peculiar rationality. I think analogies have limited domains of application, we have to take care with them. History - even if we forget it in part is not repeatable. The story of the transistor is not like the story of cold fusion. One reason- the transistor was made from an element that's good for this purpose. while cold fusion was discovered in palladium- a historical misfortune. Different starts. On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 4:55 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com wrote: I think people coming from a country with a relatively normal history re not able to understand well the behaviour of people coming from a country that was once a dictature- as Greece (or Romania.) I knew lots of people who lived through the militarist dictatorship in Japan. They did not act as irrationally as Defkalion appears to be acting. I say appears to be because there may be some hidden reason for them to be saying these weird things. I suppose it is possible that Stremmenos is right, Defkalion has no technology, and they are running a gigantic swindle. If so, they are doing a terrible job at it. They are amateur con-men, who inspire no confidence. I can't imagine how they could attract investors with a member of their Board going around saying stuff like this! An investor will do a Google search and find out the company is mired in the worst controversy a start-up company could be mired in. Their response to me would not reassure an investor, or deflect doubt. The response looks to me like confusion, rather than an attempt to evade the issue. I get a sense they honestly do not understand what I am saying. Even though I have said it as clearly as I can, and it is not complicated. You don't know whether to laugh or cry. It is a shame that cold fusion ventures so often end up tangled in confusion, anger, broken contracts, and lurid accusations. I hope this confusion -- or whatever it is -- is cleared up soon. - Jed -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
Re: [Vo]:Once again, I advise Defkalion to show Stremmenos their reactors
OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson wrote: I'm inclined to speculate that, yes, they HAVE gotten your message. They probably got your message long ago. But perhaps, for strategic business reasons, they continue to deliberately obfuscate the issue by exercising the art of deflection and misdirection. Maybe. If so, they are not very good at deflection and misdirection. Frankly, I think their response to me makes them look stupid. I hope they are trying to patch up this mess behind the scenes and their response to me was stalling for time. But why not just say, we hope to clear up this confusion soon? Rather than accusing me of making false accusations. Anyone can see I am not making accusations at all! I am pointing out that Stremmenos is. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Once again, I advise Defkalion to show Stremmenos their reactors
Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com wrote: And the kamikaze were lead by a very peculiar rationality. A horrible business. For insight into it, see the book I was a Kamikaze by Ruiji Nagatsuka, and Blossoms in the Wind: Human Legacies of the Kamikaze, by M.G. Sheftall. I know some pilots in the Imperial Japanese Army who would have ended up was Kamikaze pilots if the war had gone on. They were rational people. Not fanatics. As rational as you or I, which should give everyone pause. There, but for the grace of God . . . I do not think the act was so extreme. I think that if the United States had been on the verge of defeat by Nazi Germany, our soldiers and pilots would have taken equally extreme suicidal measures if they thought there was some chance of success. The fact is, the first kamikaze attacks were effective from a military point of view. They killed far more Americans than Japanese. If the success rate had been maintained, they could have wiped out the US Navy at the cost of a few thousand pilots, which is a favorable exchange rate in the grim jargon of the military. The US Navy quickly developed effective countermeasures. After the first few hundred attacks, there was no longer any chance of stopping the invasion by this method, so the later attacks were pointless. - Jed
RE: [Vo]:Once again, I advise Defkalion to show Stremmenos their reactors
They are disagreeing with your statement that Stremmenos accused them of criminal activity. You stated: What is disturbing about Defkalion is their dispute with Stremmenos. To have member of the Board of Directors accusing you of criminal activity in the mass media is the worst public relations nightmare I have ever heard of. It seems to me that if they are going to begin allowing visitors, they should invite Stremmenos first. Defkalion does not believe that such an accusation was made: 1) Stemmenos absolutely accuses Defkalion of scientific and technilogical inaccuracies, but does not explicitly state that any fraud has occurred. 2) He does state that Defkalion does not have access to the crucial element and the fulcrum on which it is based. But, Defkalion agrees in this instance. They state that their current Hyperions do not rely on Rossi's technology, but is their own distinct method. BUT... Where Stremmenos DOES explicitly accuse them of illegal activity is in the statement: Defkalion had no right to draw up international agreements outside of Greece and the Balkans. Therefore if it did draw up agreements outside of Greece and the Balkans, it did so illegally and without any authorization. Here, his accusation of criminal activity is contingent upon Defkalion having executing international contracts outside of Greece and the Balkans. Defkalion has not announced where it has sold rights, so, in effect, such a statement may not be libelous. Just a thought (roughly two cents worth)... FWIW, I agree with you 100% that they should address all of Stremmenos' statements. I cannot read the mind of DGT, but the lack of response may be less a matter of misunderstanding you, and more a calculated business-decision. Whether the decision is based on strategy or attorney's recommendation is anybody's guess. RL Stremmenos statement: http://pesn.com/2011/10/12/9501932_Stremmenos_Accuses_Defkalion_of_Lies_and_Megalomania/ Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 10:44:03 -0500 From: jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Once again, I advise Defkalion to show Stremmenos their reactors OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson wrote: I'm inclined to speculate that, yes, they HAVE gotten your message. They probably got your message long ago. But perhaps, for strategic business reasons, they continue to deliberately obfuscate the issue by exercising the art of deflection and misdirection. Maybe. If so, they are not very good at deflection and misdirection. Frankly, I think their response to me makes them look stupid. I hope they are trying to patch up this mess behind the scenes and their response to me was stalling for time. But why not just say, we hope to clear up this confusion soon? Rather than accusing me of making false accusations. Anyone can see I am not making accusations at all! I am pointing out that Stremmenos is. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Once again, I advise Defkalion to show Stremmenos their reactors
From Robert: ... Whether the decision is based on strategy or attorney's recommendation is anybody's guess. IMO, both are good guesses. ...a little of both. I bet lawyers on both sides of the fence will make a bundle of money. ;-) Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Once again, I advise Defkalion to show Stremmenos their reactors
Defkalion's responses have a highly Steornish flavor. They are tangential. Evasive. I doubt it's a language problem. The most likely reason Defkalion answers Jed the way they do is that they depended on Rossi's word and his delivery of technology which never happened. My best guess is that it didn't happen for only one reason: Rossi had nothing which would stand up to detailed scrutiny so he created the conflict with Defkalion in order to postpone his exposure as long as possible. That is perhaps also the reason why his *only* client is anonymous. Why else would Rossi break with the one company that could have helped him efficiently and relatively safely market his E-cats and develop the technology? Continuing my theory, for unfathomable reasons, Defkalion may have pressed on without Rossi's core, claiming they developed one of their own. Really? How? And in such a short time? Most likely Defkalion also has nothing. Certainly, they have shown nothing and best as I can determine have never made promised arrangements for government tests or any other tests or visits. All of those were supposed to happen in Q4 2011 or earlier. And the delays, if that's what's going on, have not even been acknowledged or explained by Defkalion. IMO, both Rossi and Defkalion are simply bluffing and delaying, maybe hoping they will be able to develop the technology, whatever that turns out to be. Steorn, Dennis Lee, Carl Tilley and Sniffex, all had no exit plan and neither, it seems, does Mark Goldes. It doesn't seem as if Eestor and BLP do either. With time, either the perpetrators get in trouble with the law or if not, the claims and interest in them just fade out. Perhaps Rossi and Defkalion don't have exit plans either. Maybe both are playing the current game of words by ear.
Re: [Vo]:Once again, I advise Defkalion to show Stremmenos their reactors
How come Mary Yugo explanations of the current events sounds always the most rational, well thought and coherent? It just fits all the facts. Giovanni On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 11:04 AM, Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: Defkalion's responses have a highly Steornish flavor. They are tangential. Evasive. I doubt it's a language problem. The most likely reason Defkalion answers Jed the way they do is that they depended on Rossi's word and his delivery of technology which never happened. My best guess is that it didn't happen for only one reason: Rossi had nothing which would stand up to detailed scrutiny so he created the conflict with Defkalion in order to postpone his exposure as long as possible. That is perhaps also the reason why his *only* client is anonymous. Why else would Rossi break with the one company that could have helped him efficiently and relatively safely market his E-cats and develop the technology? Continuing my theory, for unfathomable reasons, Defkalion may have pressed on without Rossi's core, claiming they developed one of their own. Really? How? And in such a short time? Most likely Defkalion also has nothing. Certainly, they have shown nothing and best as I can determine have never made promised arrangements for government tests or any other tests or visits. All of those were supposed to happen in Q4 2011 or earlier. And the delays, if that's what's going on, have not even been acknowledged or explained by Defkalion. IMO, both Rossi and Defkalion are simply bluffing and delaying, maybe hoping they will be able to develop the technology, whatever that turns out to be. Steorn, Dennis Lee, Carl Tilley and Sniffex, all had no exit plan and neither, it seems, does Mark Goldes. It doesn't seem as if Eestor and BLP do either. With time, either the perpetrators get in trouble with the law or if not, the claims and interest in them just fade out. Perhaps Rossi and Defkalion don't have exit plans either. Maybe both are playing the current game of words by ear.
Re: [Vo]:Once again, I advise Defkalion to show Stremmenos their reactors
On 11-12-20 10:44 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote: OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson wrote: I'm inclined to speculate that, yes, they HAVE gotten your message. They probably got your message long ago. But perhaps, for strategic business reasons, they continue to deliberately obfuscate the issue by exercising the art of deflection and misdirection. Maybe. If so, they are not very good at deflection and misdirection. Frankly, I think their response to me makes them look stupid. Perhaps they *are* stupid. That issue is quite independent of whether they're honest. Not everybody in business who is in a position to control substantial sums is highly intelligent, after all. And if they're actually con guys, well, most criminals are, after all, kind of dumb (despite the fact that the ones who get famous and written up in the news tend to be exceptionally intelligent). This has been studied (can't cite a URL, sorry), it's not just speculation. Smart people generally don't feel the need to rob banks, or to go into dicey con games where they're more than half likely to end up in jail. The upside doesn't balance out the downside.
Re: [Vo]:Once again, I advise Defkalion to show Stremmenos their reactors
On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 10:26 AM, Stephen A. Lawrence sa...@pobox.comwrote: And if they're actually con guys, well, most criminals are, after all, kind of dumb (despite the fact that the ones who get famous and written up in the news tend to be exceptionally intelligent). This has been studied (can't cite a URL, sorry), it's not just speculation. Smart people generally don't feel the need to rob banks, or to go into dicey con games where they're more than half likely to end up in jail. The upside doesn't balance out the downside. Right. Like Jay Leno, I think dumb criminals are particularly amusing at times. But I think with many, it's less a matter of low intellect and more a matter of a sociopathic personality which doesn't differentiate right from wrong and/or doesn't care about it. Some degree of sociopathy has, I think, evolutionary advantages therefore a lot of people and many cultures incorporate those traits. Many free energy and related scams appear to have originated from criminals and sociopaths and people who were undoubtedly both.
Re: [Vo]:Once again, I advise Defkalion to show Stremmenos their reactors
From Stephen: Perhaps they *are* stupid. That issue is quite independent of whether they're honest. Not everybody in business who is in a position to control substantial sums is highly intelligent, after all. And if they're actually con guys, well, most criminals are, after all, kind of dumb (despite the fact that the ones who get famous and written up in the news tend to be exceptionally intelligent). This has been studied (can't cite a URL, sorry), it's not just speculation. Smart people generally don't feel the need to rob banks, or to go into dicey con games where they're more than half likely to end up in jail. The upside doesn't balance out the downside. Speaking strictly for myself, I cannot rule out the possibility that the major parties participating in this little drama are NOT acting stupidly. Ceaseless speculation, where it is thought that deception may be the primary motivating factor eventually becomes a circuitous argument that feeds off of its own existence. I freely admit that I have been guilty of adding my own share of speculation on this matter. Perhaps it would be wise to stop further speculation until we can discern a more definitive pattern of actions from the primary actors of this drama. Until then... Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Once again, I advise Defkalion to show Stremmenos their reactors
Giovanni sez: How come Mary Yugo explanations of the current events sounds always the most rational, well thought and coherent? It just fits all the facts. According to your personal paradigm. There will always be mutual admiration societies. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Once again, I advise Defkalion to show Stremmenos their reactors
Maryyugo's explanation always sounds more rational because he, she conveniently omits the part that Rossi has allowed independent tests (although not performed to his liking) and these tests do show O/I, especially Lewan's 2nd test and the one performed by E K. If you added the following to the facts, that Rossi has allowed independent tests which are suggestive of O/I of at least 3/1 as well as the reports of others doing similar tests who are reporting O/I of 2/1, then his conclusions appear much less rational and coherent and more like someone conveniently omitting information they don't wish to discuss. Based on my watching this at least as long as Maryyugo, my best explanation is that while Rossi has a LENR reaction he 1) can't completely control it and 2) when controlling it can't reach the energy level he needs and continues to work on it in hopes of solving the engineering problems he has. Defkalion, knowing it is real don't want to give up on it (given its enormous potential) and having some knowledge of the process are probably getting similar results which are not ready for commercial application. The idea that neither has anything given all the evidence is less likely, although for yugo it is an easy leap since he denies the evidence in the Lewan test by hiding from them and pretending they don't say what they say. But there is no sense arguing with him since all of this is conjecture anyway if you dispute the Rossi demo's and even if you believe them, fraud would still be possible and we are dealing with probabilities and speculation. How come Mary Yugo explanations of the current events sounds always the most rational, well thought and coherent? It just fits all the facts. Giovanni On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 11:04 AM, Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: Defkalion's responses have a highly Steornish flavor. They are tangential. Evasive. I doubt it's a language problem. The most likely reason Defkalion answers Jed the way they do is that they depended on Rossi's word and his delivery of technology which never happened. My best guess is that it didn't happen for only one reason: Rossi had nothing which would stand up to detailed scrutiny so he created the conflict with Defkalion in order to postpone his exposure as long as possible. That is perhaps also the reason why his *only* client is anonymous. Why else would Rossi break with the one company that could have helped him efficiently and relatively safely market his E-cats and develop the technology? Continuing my theory, for unfathomable reasons, Defkalion may have pressed on without Rossi's core, claiming they developed one of their own. Really? How? And in such a short time? Most likely Defkalion also has nothing. Certainly, they have shown nothing and best as I can determine have never made promised arrangements for government tests or any other tests or visits. All of those were supposed to happen in Q4 2011 or earlier. And the delays, if that's what's going on, have not even been acknowledged or explained by Defkalion. IMO, both Rossi and Defkalion are simply bluffing and delaying, maybe hoping they will be able to develop the technology, whatever that turns out to be. Steorn, Dennis Lee, Carl Tilley and Sniffex, all had no exit plan and neither, it seems, does Mark Goldes. It doesn't seem as if Eestor and BLP do either. With time, either the perpetrators get in trouble with the law or if not, the claims and interest in them just fade out. Perhaps Rossi and Defkalion don't have exit plans either. Maybe both are playing the current game of words by ear.
Re: [Vo]:Once again, I advise Defkalion to show Stremmenos their reactors
On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 10:52 AM, OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson svj.orionwo...@gmail.com wrote: Perhaps it would be wise to stop further speculation until we can discern a more definitive pattern of actions from the primary actors of this drama. You can certainly abstain from speculation but you can't get a clearer or more definitive pattern of behavior from the primary actors. That pattern consists of evasive replies to perfectly reasonable and entirely safe questions on Rossi's blog and Defkalion's forum. It consists of hiding test data from invited reporters and scientists on October 28. It consists of one anonymous client you are supposed to believe bought 1300 (!) e-cat modules that when last tested leaked extensively and were only *claimed* to provide half of their rated thermal power (never mind the generator!). The rest of the pattern is failed claims to government tests by Defkalion, and slipped and indeterminate dates for demonstrating their products. And the final part is no independent testing of either, no university testing for Rossi and nobody who has seen anything tangible at all from Defkalion -- no factory, no labs, nothing. It's an abysmal pattern and thus far, it's crystal clear if you care to examine it.
RE: [Vo]:Once again, I advise Defkalion to show Stremmenos their reactors
Nothing new in Mary's post. as USUAL. The same old very tired speculations which PROVE nothing. Same waste of bandwidth. From: Mary Yugo [mailto:maryyu...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 11:32 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Once again, I advise Defkalion to show Stremmenos their reactors On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 10:52 AM, OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson svj.orionwo...@gmail.com wrote: Perhaps it would be wise to stop further speculation until we can discern a more definitive pattern of actions from the primary actors of this drama. You can certainly abstain from speculation but you can't get a clearer or more definitive pattern of behavior from the primary actors. That pattern consists of evasive replies to perfectly reasonable and entirely safe questions on Rossi's blog and Defkalion's forum. It consists of hiding test data from invited reporters and scientists on October 28. It consists of one anonymous client you are supposed to believe bought 1300 (!) e-cat modules that when last tested leaked extensively and were only *claimed* to provide half of their rated thermal power (never mind the generator!). The rest of the pattern is failed claims to government tests by Defkalion, and slipped and indeterminate dates for demonstrating their products. And the final part is no independent testing of either, no university testing for Rossi and nobody who has seen anything tangible at all from Defkalion -- no factory, no labs, nothing. It's an abysmal pattern and thus far, it's crystal clear if you care to examine it.
Re: [Vo]:Once again, I advise Defkalion to show Stremmenos their reactors
On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 11:44 AM, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net wrote: Nothing new in Mary’s post… as USUAL. The same old very tired speculations which PROVE nothing. Same waste of bandwidth. Maybe the pattern I pointed out is not news but there is no speculation in my post. It's simply observation and facts. Perhaps you are confusing it with some other. In any case, I was responding to someone who obviously does not see the pattern and I was trying to make it clear to that party. There is nothing new in MOST of the posts in this string. And many are repetitive especially Wuller's. But you don't object to those or any repetition which promotes or favors Rossi and Defkalion. Therefore I think you are singling out my posts for your complaints simply because you disagree with my views. I suggest that if you have some points to make which counter mine that you simply make them.
RE: [Vo]:Once again, I advise Defkalion to show Stremmenos their reactors
There is nothing new in MOST of the posts in this string. Very true. as I've been harping on, to everyone, for several weeks now, and it has gotten so bad that even the mild-mannered Horace has issued a plea to move the noise to vortexB. Did you not see his posting? Horace is probably the most patient person on this forum, so when Horace complains, it's gotten pretty bad. This forum is NOT a substitute for the 'comment' section of some website. It is specifically meant to discuss the technical merits of various fringe claims. this has been explained by others besides me. And many are repetitive especially Wuller's. This is laughable. Mary, you have 638 posts since 11/10, Mr. Wuller (as either Randy or Ransom) has only 7! That's an exclamation point, not a '1' (one) after the 7; i.e., less than ten. Only the mind of a patho-skeptic could think that the repetition that might occur in 7 posts can even be compared to what has occurred in 638 posts. Therefore I think you are singling out my posts for your complaints simply because you disagree with my views. Couldn't be further from the truth; when you have brought up something NEW, which has only been a few times out of 638, I have PUBLICLY APPLAUDED it, and thanked you. The OBVIOUS reason why I single your posts out is exactly what I stated, which is BACKED UP BY FACT AND NUMBERS! You waste more bandwidth, BY FAR, than anyone else. Period. There is very LITTLE signal in your postings, which is CONTRARY to the very spirit of this forum, which has also been explained several times. In any case, I was responding to someone who obviously does not see the pattern and I was trying to make it clear to that party It's NOT the purpose of this forum to make sure that no one goes away with a particular view. Don't waste ALL other's time by explaining your side to all the newbies. Send them a personal email and spare the rest of us the wasted time. If you feel compelled to REPEAT your position, then respond to new people who just came in on the forum as follows: - There is disagreement as to issue. Please read the archives to bring yourself up to speed. - That's it; that's all that is needed. If you're so conceited that you want to make sure they see YOUR views/analysis, then YOU take the time to get the URLs and put them in your reply. Don't make ALL others have to take time to determine if there's anything NEW in your posting. I don't think that's too much to ask. it's a reasonable request, and in compliance with the guidelines set-up by the founder/host of this forum. -Mark From: Mary Yugo [mailto:maryyu...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 11:52 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Once again, I advise Defkalion to show Stremmenos their reactors On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 11:44 AM, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net wrote: Nothing new in Mary's post. as USUAL. The same old very tired speculations which PROVE nothing. Same waste of bandwidth. Maybe the pattern I pointed out is not news but there is no speculation in my post. It's simply observation and facts. Perhaps you are confusing it with some other. In any case, I was responding to someone who obviously does not see the pattern and I was trying to make it clear to that party. There is nothing new in MOST of the posts in this string. And many are repetitive especially Wuller's. But you don't object to those or any repetition which promotes or favors Rossi and Defkalion. Therefore I think you are singling out my posts for your complaints simply because you disagree with my views. I suggest that if you have some points to make which counter mine that you simply make them.
Re: [Vo]:Once again, I advise Defkalion to show Stremmenos their reactors
Found the Defkalion factory coordinates. It is indeed close to the Xanthi Police Academy. Here they are: 41.1188 24.8674 Giovanni On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 7:47 PM, Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 12:44 PM, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net wrote: ”There is nothing new in MOST of the posts in this string.” This forum is NOT a substitute for the ‘comment’ section of some website. It is specifically meant to discuss the technical merits of various fringe claims… this has been explained by others besides me. By pure coincidence, just yesterday and today, someone who wishes to remain anonymous (LOL! ROTFWL) sent me some interesting links. They are in Italian but the illustration is clear and mathematics and modeling tends to transcend language. I want to stress that this is not my work. If anyone has questions about it, there is someone I can forward questions and issue to if I can't field them. The point of the work is to poopoo Jed's contention that the experimental results of October 6 require a nuclear source for the enthalpy/heat evolution measured in the output circuit. The links provide an artist's sketch of the device with labels which correspond to a mathematical model. The model's output reveals temperature vs time curves for the various locations on the diagram. It strongly suggests that all of the results could have been obtained if the device, instead of a nuclear reactor, contained a thermal mass made of steel. I think the assumed mass for the device is, overall, maybe a bit higher than Lewan et al measured but not by much. The image which includes the model's assumptions and output time vs temperature curves: http://imgur.com/o7soB The discussion, in Italian -- Google translate does its usual not so great job. For those not familiar, go to http://translate.google.com/?hl=entab=wT , choose detect language or italian and paste the URL into the translate field. http://www.energeticambiente.it/sistemi-idrogeno-nikel/14728165-apparato-rossi-focardi-verita-o-bufala-135.html#post119275652 A short list of related skeptical threads about Rossi's work which I did not have time to review: http://www.energeticambiente.it/sistemi-idrogeno-nikel/ Bon appetit.
[Vo]:Once again, I advise Defkalion to show Stremmenos their reactors
I am surely not making any friends at Defkalion. This is a surrealistic conversation. http://www.defkalion-energy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4879#p4879 JedRothwell wrote: What is disturbing about Defkalion is their dispute with Stremmenos. To have member of the Board of Directors accusing you of criminal activity in the mass media is the worst public relations nightmare I have ever heard of. It seems to me that if they are going to begin allowing visitors, they should invite Stremmenos first. . Dear Mr Rothwell, Prof Christos Stremmenos accused us in public for not paying Andrea Rossi for what he could not deliver, claiming such reason as his ethical problem with our company. We have not heard or read anything about accusations against us for *criminal activity *either from C.Stremmenos nor any one else. If you did, please provide us here with a link or a reference. Otherwise, please edit your last post immediately. Still C. Stremmenos is a member of our board, as he has never resigned from his position (or his shares he got for free for his past and expected services to his country) in the company claiming ethical problems with. And this is a personal logical contradiction, not a PR problem of our company. As a member of our board and a great patriot, as we still believe he is, Christos Stremmenos needs no invitation to visit any time our HQ or any of our labs, which he has not visited for 7 months now. DGT Defkalion GT wrote: Prof Christos Stremmenos accused us in public for not paying Andrea Rossi for what he could not deliver, claiming such reason as his ethical problem with our company. We have not heard or read anything about accusations against us for *criminal activity *either from C.Stremmenos nor any one else. If you did, please provide us here with a link or a reference. I did not read Stremmenos' accusation about not paying Andrea Rossi. I know nothing about that. It a private business matter between you and Rossi. (A matter of civil law.) I was not talking about that. In NyTeknik and elsewhere Stremmenos claimed that you do not have the reactor core technology. Rossi also said this, as you know. Yet during your June press conference and in this web site, you claim that you have working reactors. I do not know about the laws in Greece or the EU, but in the U.S. or Japan, if you do not have a working product yet you claim that you do, this is false advertising. It is a criminal offense, not a civil offense. It is against the law to offer for sale something you do not have and cannot get. A common example would be an electronics store offering a laptop computer at a low price to bring in customers, when the store does not have the laptop in stock. If what Stremmenos and Rossi say is true, then you are soliciting customers and dealers to sell a product you do not have in stock, you have no means to manufacture, and you have no legal right to sell. You are asking dealers to commit tens of millions of Euros, as I recall. In my experience doing business in the U.S., if a company were to do this, and a company officer such as a member of the Board of Directors were to publicly declare the company does not actually have the product, this would be headline news in the business section of the local newspaper. Regulators and the police would show up at the company the next day with search warrants. The company would be closed down, pending an investigation. I think this would also happen in Japan. I do not suppose that Stremmenos and Rossi are correct. I assume there is a misunderstanding, and you actually do have working reactors. Therefore I recommend you invite Stremmenos into you lab as soon as possible, and prove to him that you have the reactor cores. Ask him to please publish a retraction in NyTeknik. I also strongly recommend you publish an independent third party test of your equipment, to put these and all other doubts to rest. I will grant, this could be a cultural difference. However, I assure you that in the U.S. or Japan, having a member of the Board of Directors publish a statement like this would be considered a calamity. It is tantamount to having him announce that you are a fraud. It would quickly cause the collapse of any ordinary start-up company.
