Re: Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes
-Original Message- From: Robin van Spaandonk IOW every .1875/1.44 minutes (7.8 seconds) of charge time will take you one mile. .1855 *kWh / 1.44 kW = 7.8 minutes (not seconds) :( LOL! I *thought* that looked wrong! I shouldn't mess with power after a bottle of Merlot. ;-) Thanks, mate! Terry ___ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com
Re: Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes
My argument holds in town too Robin. It's OK not to be able to fast recharge an electric bicycle because you can switch to another source of power (your muscles) if your battery is empty on the street, not so for a purely electric car, this is why the best we can have is ICE-electric hybrids until we have fast recharge. We won't have The Really Good Battery as Chris calls it until we have fast recharge plus other characteristics such as acceptable lifetime, cost, weight and volume for the required kWh value. Michel - Original Message - From: Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 7:08 AM Subject: Re: Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes In reply to Michel Jullian's message of Wed, 3 May 2006 01:44:02 +0200: Hi, [snip] You're also right that a few hours recharge is fine at home, but this is not true on the road, where you will be happy not to spend several hours at the filling station, that's where fast recharge ability shines. [snip] Keep the ICE vehicles for long trips, and use the electric vehicle for the daily commute. Most km's are traveled during the daily commute anyway, so overall the savings would still be huge. (Most US households are two car families (at least) anyway). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means.
Re: Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes
In reply to Michel Jullian's message of Wed, 3 May 2006 10:18:49 +0200: Hi, [snip] My argument holds in town too Robin. It's OK not to be able to fast recharge an electric bicycle because you can switch to another source of power (your muscles) if your battery is empty on the street, not so for a purely electric car, this is why the best we can have is ICE-electric hybrids until we have fast recharge. We won't have The Really Good Battery as Chris calls it until we have fast recharge plus other characteristics such as acceptable lifetime, cost, weight and volume for the required kWh value. [snip] But the new Lithium batteries *do* have fast recharge capability, so a quick stopover at a roadside charging station shouldn't be a problem. Such charging stations *do* need to have heavy duty power supplies, which isn't a problem, because they are dedicated, and there are proportionally not a lot of them. Private homes don't need such heavy duty facilities because one can afford to take longer to do the recharge. Furthermore, with the price of energy from a roadside station likely to be at a premium, most people will likely opt for home charging over night, and save. The problem you describe also existed when gasoline vehicles were first introduced, and before gas stations became ubiquitous. In fact the introduction of electric vehicles would probably be a lot less stressful than early gasoline was, because people would have the capability to recharge at home. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means.
Re: Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes
-Original Message- From: Robin van Spaandonk SUV's are a passing fad. Sure are, mate. They're constantly passing me on the highway since I drive 55. Terry ___ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com
RE: Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes
Guys, many of us have two ( or more ) cars in our households. So, you can buy a electric car for short trips for wifey and a gasoline or hybrid for longer distances. Better yet, just buy the hybrid and charge it overnight, saving the engine for those long trips to the relatives. -Original Message- From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 7:49 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes In reply to Michel Jullian's message of Wed, 3 May 2006 10:18:49 +0200: Hi, [snip] My argument holds in town too Robin. It's OK not to be able to fast recharge an electric bicycle because you can switch to another source of power (your muscles) if your battery is empty on the street, not so for a purely electric car, this is why the best we can have is ICE-electric hybrids until we have fast recharge. We won't have The Really Good Battery as Chris calls it until we have fast recharge plus other characteristics such as acceptable lifetime, cost, weight and volume for the required kWh value. [snip] But the new Lithium batteries *do* have fast recharge capability, so a quick stopover at a roadside charging station shouldn't be a problem. Such charging stations *do* need to have heavy duty power supplies, which isn't a problem, because they are dedicated, and there are proportionally not a lot of them. Private homes don't need such heavy duty facilities because one can afford to take longer to do the recharge. Furthermore, with the price of energy from a roadside station likely to be at a premium, most people will likely opt for home charging over night, and save. The problem you describe also existed when gasoline vehicles were first introduced, and before gas stations became ubiquitous. In fact the introduction of electric vehicles would probably be a lot less stressful than early gasoline was, because people would have the capability to recharge at home. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means.
Re: Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes
Robin van Spaandonk wrote: My argument holds in town too Robin. It's OK not to be able to fast recharge an electric bicycle because you can switch to another source of power (your muscles) Actually this can be challenging for older people, because electric bicycles tend to be heavy. But many things about bicycles are challenging, such as thunderstorms. We won't have The Really Good Battery as Chris calls it until we have fast recharge plus other characteristics such as acceptable lifetime, cost, weight and volume for the required kWh value. [snip] But the new Lithium batteries *do* have fast recharge capability, so a quick stopover at a roadside charging station shouldn't be a problem. Such charging stations *do* need to have heavy duty power supplies . . . I think this would be a problem. Not because of technical limitations, but because of commercial limitations. If people can recharge cars at home conveniently at the same price (or less) than as a charging station, people will seldom use charging stations. So there will be few stations. I expect you would find only a few scattered around at shopping malls or McDonald's. You will have to pay to use them, but the stores will install them mainly as a way to attract customers. Swank office parks may have them. Some swank malls and offices already do have charging stations, in fact. A person driving a pure electric vehicle in the city who runs out of power will be stranded. There may be charging stations along major highways, because all drivers will run out there. These cars will need a good warning system for low power conditions. Maybe it could incorporate a GPS and voice saying you may not have enough power to reach your destination [return home] [reach your office]. I think readers here failed to understand the point I made yesterday about partial recharging. It is a little difficult to imagine how this works unless you have experience using electric vehicles. (I am one of the few people in the U.S. who does.) A 5-minute partial recharge is almost as good as a full charge for many purposes. As I said, if the low charge warning is flashing and you need to go to the grocery store, a five-minute recharge would be fine, whereas a one-hour recharge would be annoying. Many urban trips are short. After you get back from the grocery store, you can fully charge the car at your leisure. We tend to think of refueling as an all or nothing process, because it is a nuisance to go to the gas station, pay with a credit card and so on, but there is no particular need to fill 'er up every time with an electric vehicle. (I am assuming the power supply is conveniently located near where you park the car.) Furthermore, with the price of energy from a roadside station likely to be at a premium, most people will likely opt for home charging over night, and save. The price would have to include a premium to cover rent, personnel and equipment. This is why there will be few dedicated charging stations. On the other hand, it would not cost McDonald's much to add one or two chargers to their parking lot. Some people who driving a long distanced in the city will go there only because they need power, and since it is likely to take 15 or 20 minutes even with a fast recharge battery, they are likely to stick around and eat something. McDonald's might limit the amperage to stretch out the visit. - Jed
Re: Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes
Partial recharging is OK for town use, but if we want full electric for the road too we do need full and fast recharging, which as Robin said is already possible with current Lithium batteries but a bit long: 8mn is a hell of a lot. 2 or 3mn as claimed by EEstor would be more like it. A person driving a pure electric vehicle in the city who runs out of power will be stranded. Or maybe on the contrary unmanned slow recharging stations will be ubiquitous because they require very little investment and real estate compared to gas stations, and they will allow one to recharge enough to get home or to the next real power station. Michel - Original Message - From: Jed Rothwell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 4:12 PM Subject: Re: Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes Robin van Spaandonk wrote: My argument holds in town too Robin. It's OK not to be able to fast recharge an electric bicycle because you can switch to another source of power (your muscles) Actually this can be challenging for older people, because electric bicycles tend to be heavy. But many things about bicycles are challenging, such as thunderstorms. We won't have The Really Good Battery as Chris calls it until we have fast recharge plus other characteristics such as acceptable lifetime, cost, weight and volume for the required kWh value. [snip] But the new Lithium batteries *do* have fast recharge capability, so a quick stopover at a roadside charging station shouldn't be a problem. Such charging stations *do* need to have heavy duty power supplies . . . I think this would be a problem. Not because of technical limitations, but because of commercial limitations. If people can recharge cars at home conveniently at the same price (or less) than as a charging station, people will seldom use charging stations. So there will be few stations. I expect you would find only a few scattered around at shopping malls or McDonald's. You will have to pay to use them, but the stores will install them mainly as a way to attract customers. Swank office parks may have them. Some swank malls and offices already do have charging stations, in fact. A person driving a pure electric vehicle in the city who runs out of power will be stranded. There may be charging stations along major highways, because all drivers will run out there. These cars will need a good warning system for low power conditions. Maybe it could incorporate a GPS and voice saying you may not have enough power to reach your destination [return home] [reach your office]. I think readers here failed to understand the point I made yesterday about partial recharging. It is a little difficult to imagine how this works unless you have experience using electric vehicles. (I am one of the few people in the U.S. who does.) A 5-minute partial recharge is almost as good as a full charge for many purposes. As I said, if the low charge warning is flashing and you need to go to the grocery store, a five-minute recharge would be fine, whereas a one-hour recharge would be annoying. Many urban trips are short. After you get back from the grocery store, you can fully charge the car at your leisure. We tend to think of refueling as an all or nothing process, because it is a nuisance to go to the gas station, pay with a credit card and so on, but there is no particular need to fill 'er up every time with an electric vehicle. (I am assuming the power supply is conveniently located near where you park the car.) Furthermore, with the price of energy from a roadside station likely to be at a premium, most people will likely opt for home charging over night, and save. The price would have to include a premium to cover rent, personnel and equipment. This is why there will be few dedicated charging stations. On the other hand, it would not cost McDonald's much to add one or two chargers to their parking lot. Some people who driving a long distanced in the city will go there only because they need power, and since it is likely to take 15 or 20 minutes even with a fast recharge battery, they are likely to stick around and eat something. McDonald's might limit the amperage to stretch out the visit. - Jed
Re: Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes
Michel Jullian wrote: A person driving a pure electric vehicle in the city who runs out of power will be stranded. Or maybe on the contrary unmanned slow recharging stations will be ubiquitous because they require very little investment and real estate compared to gas stations . . . It is a little difficult to imagine how they would pay for themselves, except as a means of attracting customers to places like McDonald's, as I said. (Actually, someone else here suggested that first.) Perhaps that would suffice. I suppose if they were many of the stations at fast food restaurants, shopping mall parking lots, public libraries and the like, a person running low on power might have little trouble finding a place to stop and recharge on the way home. If they were as ubiquitous as bank automatic teller machines (ATMs) there will be little danger of being stranded. The thing is, they would not be used as frequently as ATMs are. Even if you charge a premium of several dollars to recharge at one, I doubt that a stand-alone recharging machine would ever pay for itself. Problems like this have a way of sorting themselves out. Our ancestors would be astounded at how many gas stations there are. When they first became widespread in the 1920s, magazines such as the New Yorker often made fun of the trend. Large capacity rapid-recharge stations on highways and busy urban roads would make tons of money. Perhaps there would be enough of them to avoid problems while traveling around urban areas. If there were one rapid recharge station in every major highway exit in Atlanta, I suppose I could go just about anywhere and be within a few miles of one if the car ran low. As I said, you would want a couple the system with a sophisticated GPS navigation system. Even now, the Prius GPS guidance system can tell you where the nearest gas station or hospital is. If you travel in an electric vehicle and the charge falls to dangerously low levels, the car will warn you and tell you where the nearest charging station is. Or, if you inform car beforehand where you are going, the car might tell you that you will need to recharge along the way, and suggest several alternative recharging station locations and itineraries. This would be particularly useful in the early days when there are not many public recharging stations. The Prius GPS turn-by-turn guidance system is superb, by the way. I have no sense of direction and I get nervous when I am lost (which is nearly always). But thanks to the GPS system I have successfully driven to many new places with aplomb panache. The computer has a woman's voice. She sounds like a Midwestern schoolteacher with an attitude, who takes no guff from students -- from you, the driver, that is -- although in fact she will take any amount of guff without losing her temper. I rode in a Japanese Toyota recently, in Tokyo, which was equipped with the same kind of GPS system. It also has a woman's voice, but she sounded like a mincing bubblegum-pop high school girl, or one of these women who used to operate the automatic elevators in Japanese department stores. The American voice commands more respect and attention. - Jed
Re: Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes
In reply to Michel Jullian's message of Wed, 3 May 2006 19:14:20 +0200: Hi, [snip] Partial recharging is OK for town use, but if we want full electric for the road too we do need full and fast recharging, which as Robin said is already possible with current Lithium batteries but a bit long: 8mn is a hell of a lot. 2 or 3mn as claimed by EEstor would be more like it. A person driving a pure electric vehicle in the city who runs out of power will be stranded. Or maybe on the contrary unmanned slow recharging stations will be ubiquitous because they require very little investment and real estate compared to gas stations, and they will allow one to recharge enough to get home or to the next real power station. They will require no real estate at all, and there will be one about every 10-20 meters. Since they will exist in almost every private home and business. IOW if you run low you won't have to go far till you find someone at home willing to make a fast buck by letting you use his private charging station for half an hour or so at an exorbitant price. (...and it will teach you to pay more attention to the fuel gage in future). ;) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means.
Re: Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes
Or more likely all that will be needed is somebody willing to lend/rent you a wall socket as you will probably have an emergency low power battery charger and an extension cord in the car itself :) Michel - Original Message - From: Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 12:11 AM Subject: Re: Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes In reply to Michel Jullian's message of Wed, 3 May 2006 19:14:20 +0200: Hi, [snip] Partial recharging is OK for town use, but if we want full electric for the road too we do need full and fast recharging, which as Robin said is already possible with current Lithium batteries but a bit long: 8mn is a hell of a lot. 2 or 3mn as claimed by EEstor would be more like it. A person driving a pure electric vehicle in the city who runs out of power will be stranded. Or maybe on the contrary unmanned slow recharging stations will be ubiquitous because they require very little investment and real estate compared to gas stations, and they will allow one to recharge enough to get home or to the next real power station. They will require no real estate at all, and there will be one about every 10-20 meters. Since they will exist in almost every private home and business. IOW if you run low you won't have to go far till you find someone at home willing to make a fast buck by letting you use his private charging station for half an hour or so at an exorbitant price. (...and it will teach you to pay more attention to the fuel gage in future). ;) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means.
Re: Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes
-Original Message- From: Michel Jullian Or more likely all that will be needed is somebody willing to lend/rent you a wall socket as you will probably have an emergency low power battery charger and an extension cord in the car itself :) Wall outlet charging: 120 VAC x 15 A x safety factor 0.8 = 1.44 kW instantaneous. @ 15 hp/60 mph = 11.25 kW/60 mph = 0.1875 kw/mph IOW every .1875/1.44 minutes (7.8 seconds) of charge time will take you one mile. Assuming 100% efficiency. I think. Not bad. T ___ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com
Re: Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes
In reply to [EMAIL PROTECTED]'s message of Wed, 03 May 2006 20:20:48 -0400: Hi, [snip] -Original Message- From: Michel Jullian Or more likely all that will be needed is somebody willing to lend/rent you a wall socket as you will probably have an emergency low power battery charger and an extension cord in the car itself :) Wall outlet charging: 120 VAC x 15 A x safety factor 0.8 = 1.44 kW instantaneous. @ 15 hp/60 mph = 11.25 kW/60 mph = 0.1875 kw/mph IOW every .1875/1.44 minutes (7.8 seconds) of charge time will take you one mile. .1855 *kWh / 1.44 kW = 7.8 minutes (not seconds) :( Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means.
Re: Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes
Zell, Chris wrote: The Really Good Battery: the one invention that will change everything from global warming to Arab governments. This one may be too good! I hope it does not solve so many problems that it discourages research into cold fusion. In the history of technology, there are many examples of machines that worked so well, for so long, they ended up blocking the development of better technology. Three important modern examples are the internal combustion engine, IBM PC architecture, and Microsoft Windows. They are obsolete, but they have so much developmental momentum behind them, they keep improving just enough to remain commercially viable and prevent effective competition. If we were to start over from scratch today, no one would select these technologies, but you never start over from scratch. Human institutions and technology are strongly influenced by contingency and incumbency, just as biological evolution is. (This is not surprising, since our institutions and technology are a direct result of evolution; they are governed by it as much as our endocrine system is. They tend to borrow the same mechanisms and operate along the same lines.) - Jed
Re: Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes
Zell, Chris wrote: The Really Good Battery: the one invention that will change everything from global warming to Arab governments. Chris, be just a bit careful about fully believing all that Altair nanotechnologies say. They have a bit of a history of exaggerating the significance of what they are doing but they seem to be becoming a bit more respectable these days (they started out as a Canadian registered mining company - take from that what you will...) Nick Palmer
Re: Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes
-Original Message- From: Zell, Chris ... Recharging the new lithium-ion battery only takes six to eight minutes Hmmm, to deliver 500 kWhr in 8 minutes at 240 V . . . 500 kWhr x 60 = 30 MWmin 30 MWmin / 8 min = 3.75 MW instantaneous 15,625 Amps? Buy copper futures! Terry ___ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com
Re: Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes
No ! Terry, Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain, The great and terrible wizard of oz can solve any problem. You just shot down a sure fire IPO. Or as the wicked witch of the west said... you destroyed my beautiful wickedness.. I hate you and your dog toto too!!. Richard -Original Message- From: Zell, Chris ... Recharging the new lithium-ion battery only takes six to eight minutes Hmmm, to deliver 500 kWhr in 8 minutes at 240 V . . . 500 kWhr x 60 = 30 MWmin 30 MWmin / 8 min = 3.75 MW instantaneous 15,625 Amps? Buy copper futures! Terry ___ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com
Re: Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes
At 03:48 pm 02/05/2006 -0400, you wrote: -Original Message- From: Zell, Chris ... Recharging the new lithium-ion battery only takes six to eight minutes Hmmm, to deliver 500 kWhr in 8 minutes at 240 V . . . 500 kWhr x 60 = 30 MWmin 30 MWmin / 8 min = 3.75 MW instantaneous 15,625 Amps? Buy copper futures! Terry Presumably one would have two battery packs. One on slow charge and one in use. In garages you would drop one pack and pick up another. A bit like using bottled gas. Frank
Re: Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes
Terry wrote: Hmmm, to deliver 500 kWhr in 8 minutes at 240 V . . . 500 kWhr x 60 = 30 MWmin 30 MWmin / 8 min = 3.75 MW instantaneous 15,625 Amps? Buy copper futures! Yup. We have discussed that here before. Various solutions have been floated, such as swapping the battery pack (as Fred just mentioned) or using a large pack of batteries at the charging station. Actually, if you are going to swap a battery pack you might as well use one of today's slow charge batteries. Still, it would be a big advantage to be able to recharge at the highest amperage your house can support. As quickly as possible, in other words. Even a rapid partial recharge would be convenient. If you had to drive 5 miles round trip to the grocery store but your battery was almost dead, it would be great to quickly recharge 1/6th before setting off. I know this would be convenient based on my experience riding the electric bicycle. I think this battery would have immediate value in other ways: In hybrid vehicles, reducing the need for a capacitor. (I assume they use one?) For things like cell phones and electrically powered lawn clippers and mowers. It would be great for my electric bicycle! There are thousands of electric bicycles and scooters in Beijing, so this could be a big help. Chris has listed many other ways a good battery would help. - Jed
Re: Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes
-Original Message- From: RC Macaulay No ! Terry, Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain, The great and terrible wizard of oz can solve any problem. You just shot down a sure fire IPO. Or as the wicked witch of the west said... you destroyed my beautiful wickedness.. I hate you and your dog toto too!!. Okay, here's the ruby slippers. I have 100 A 240 v service into my home. It can deliver 24 kW instantaneous. Using all my capacity, I can charge a 500 kWHr bettery in a little less than 21 hours. Screw the air conditioning. Terry ___ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com
Re: Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes
I wrote: Even a rapid partial recharge would be convenient. If you had to drive 5 miles round trip to the grocery store but your battery was almost dead, it would be great to quickly recharge 1/6th before setting off. Imagine this scenario. You hop in the car to go grocery shopping. You press the start button and a flashing red light on the dashboard tells you the battery is almost out. With a standard battery you say: Woops. We need a partial recharge. Let us reschedule an hour from now. How annoying! With a rapid recharge battery: Woops. We better plug in for 5 minutes. Let's make a shopping list. As I said, I have experienced this kind of thing with the electric bicycle, which recharges much slower than it discharges. I can easily travel 4 miles in 15 minutes (16 mph), but before I leave I may need to wait an hour for an exhausted battery to charge up enough. 16 mph, by the way, is plenty fast for urban transportation. A lot of urban drivers wish they could keep up with that. - Jed
Re: Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes
In reply to [EMAIL PROTECTED]'s message of Tue, 02 May 2006 15:48:58 -0400: Hi, [snip] My car has a 40 L gas tank (only 1500 cc engine). At 14 kWh/kg for gasoline that equates to 420 kWh. However an ICE probably uses on average no better than 20% of this, hence for the purposes of comparison, we get 84 kWh. Since electrical systems can be much more efficient, let's say 75%, we would only need 112 kWh stored in the bettery. At 24 kW mentioned in another post, total recharge is accomplished in 4.7 hours. IOW during the early hours of the morning while you sleep...and you start each day with a full gas tank, which certainly isn't the case currently (no pun intended). Perhaps more to the point, since cruising requires less than 24 kW of power, one needs to recharge less hours each day than one drives. A simple rule of thumb, taking inefficiencies into account would be recharging time = driving time. Hmmm, to deliver 500 kWhr in 8 minutes at 240 V . . . 500 kWhr x 60 = 30 MWmin 30 MWmin / 8 min = 3.75 MW instantaneous 15,625 Amps? [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means.
Re: Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes
-Original Message- From: Robin van Spaandonk My car has a 40 L gas tank (only 1500 cc engine). At 14 kWh/kg for gasoline that equates to 420 kWh. Yeah, mate; but, that isn't an American SUV. g Terry ___ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com
Re: Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes
Robin, your calculation is right: we don't need 500 kWh stored in the battery, but only 100 kWh. Even 50kWh would be enough for most purposes (the EEstor battery stores 52kWh). You're also right that a few hours recharge is fine at home, but this is not true on the road, where you will be happy not to spend several hours at the filling station, that's where fast recharge ability shines. The alternative is battery swapping as was mentioned, but this may not be very practical: batteries are heavy and bulky, not necessarily easy to access, and cost a lot so one may be reluctant to swap a brand new battery pack with one in an unknown state. Michel - Original Message - From: Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 12:15 AM Subject: Re: Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes In reply to [EMAIL PROTECTED]'s message of Tue, 02 May 2006 15:48:58 -0400: Hi, [snip] My car has a 40 L gas tank (only 1500 cc engine). At 14 kWh/kg for gasoline that equates to 420 kWh. However an ICE probably uses on average no better than 20% of this, hence for the purposes of comparison, we get 84 kWh. Since electrical systems can be much more efficient, let's say 75%, we would only need 112 kWh stored in the bettery. At 24 kW mentioned in another post, total recharge is accomplished in 4.7 hours. IOW during the early hours of the morning while you sleep...and you start each day with a full gas tank, which certainly isn't the case currently (no pun intended). Perhaps more to the point, since cruising requires less than 24 kW of power, one needs to recharge less hours each day than one drives. A simple rule of thumb, taking inefficiencies into account would be recharging time = driving time. Hmmm, to deliver 500 kWhr in 8 minutes at 240 V . . . 500 kWhr x 60 = 30 MWmin 30 MWmin / 8 min = 3.75 MW instantaneous 15,625 Amps? [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means.
Re: Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes
Robin van Spaandonk writes: comparison, we get 84 kWh. Since electrical systems can be much more efficient, let's say 75%, we would only need 112 kWh stored in the bettery. It is 60% from power mains to vehicle propulsion with current technology circa 1990. See: http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/NRELenergyover.pdf I'll bet it is 70% today; see exhibit A3. Regenerative braking is a big plus. A simple rule of thumb, taking inefficiencies into account would be recharging time = driving time. The electric bicycle with lead-acid batteries does not meet this test. However, there are now better batteries and specially made chargers that can speed things up. A bicycle is the most efficient means of transportation on earth (better than any other machine or animal), so you can see this charger is not adequate. - Jed
Re: Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes
In reply to [EMAIL PROTECTED]'s message of Tue, 02 May 2006 19:15:40 -0400: Hi, [snip] Yeah, mate; but, that isn't an American SUV. g SUV's are a passing fad. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means.
Re: Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes
In reply to Michel Jullian's message of Wed, 3 May 2006 01:44:02 +0200: Hi, [snip] You're also right that a few hours recharge is fine at home, but this is not true on the road, where you will be happy not to spend several hours at the filling station, that's where fast recharge ability shines. [snip] Keep the ICE vehicles for long trips, and use the electric vehicle for the daily commute. Most km's are traveled during the daily commute anyway, so overall the savings would still be huge. (Most US households are two car families (at least) anyway). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means.
