Re: [Vo]:Inexpensive steam/water calorimeter
On Sep 27, 2011, at 9:27 PM, Peter Gluck wrote: Dear Horace, The missing variable is cooling water flow- to be established by Rossi- water that carries the excess heat generated by the 52 (?) Fat Cats and is partially transformed in steam- F1. To achieve accuracy in delta T measuring the condensing water flow rate should be adjusted to the flow rate of the steam. If the flow is too high the delta T is small and even very small errors in measuring T translate into very large errors in delta T. If the device enthalpy varies rapidly then it is much easier to adjust the cooling water flow to a longer term moving average than to instantaneous measurements. The flow of mixing water- condensing the steam is say, 5-10 times greater than F1 see please the formula given in my paper. Like most people I don't generally go looking for a URL if it is not provided in a reference. What matters is not the mixer cooling water flow rate but its combined temperature and flow rate. The flow has to be matched to the steam thermal power, mass flow, and cooling water temperature in order to achieve a significant delta T. This problem does not exist when the steam is condensed into a very large thermal mass of water - provided the large mass is kept in a useful temperature range, and the thermal power from the secondary cooling circuit is matched to the device thermal power. If the thermal mass is large enough such matching can take place gradually and even manually, provided it is properly recorded. No peristaltic but other types of positive displacement pumps to be used, I said, Unfortunately my two peristaltic pumps are too small for this power range. This does not imply that I would even consider trying to buy large peristaltic pumps. Perhaps we have a language barrier. Also, the flow rate for the cooling water should ideally be adjustable to the thermal power output of the device if that is variable and unpredictable. An adjustable flow rate pump, or a selection of pumps, would thus be useful for driving the secondary cooling circuit. e,g. gear pumps- for which the flow is not influenced by counterpressure. The flow rate of gear pumps is influenced by a pumping into a large pressure head, both due to rpm loss (slip) for AC induction motors under load, and due to rotor seal leakage under high pressure. In the case of the new Rossi device, it looked like perhaps the water flow was entirely blocked towards the end of the test. This would create as large a pump pressure head as required to terminate flow. The evidence for flow blockage was the high pressure the device was under at the end. This system measures the enthalpy in any moment, Including the start up period and possibly the heat after death. The mass flow measurement depends on measuring the mixer exit mass flow. This flow likely contains bubbles, is not well thermally mixed, and has fast dynamics requiring fast sampling times. Some degree of smoothing increases reliability of the numbers and reduces the required sampling rate. A large degree of smoothing provides a first principle check on the flow calorimetry numbers. Of course, in the case of Rossi's device any even low precision mass flow calorimetry is an improvement. In the case of my own work I would like some degree of consistency checking. A hybrid method provides this consistency check. The formula for efficiency is actually O/3I because electrical energy is at least 3 times more valuable or expensive than thermal energy That is not a formula for efficiency but relative value. Peter On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 7:38 AM, Horace Heffner hheff...@mtaonline.net wrote: On Sep 27, 2011, at 9:35 AM, Jouni Valkonen wrote: 2011/9/27 Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com: The simplest solution is to use a Steam Water mixing valve,in which the heated mixture coming out from the demo is mixed with a constant flow of cold water, you can know the enthalpy performance in any moment. Indeed, continuous experiments easiest way is to use enthalpy sensors, that gives as total enthalpy for any given moment. Even more simple is to measure the steam pressure inside E-Cat, because it gives directly the total enthalpy, but of course we need to first calibrate this kind of enthalpy sensors. –Jouni You have again not specified the precise method you would use. It would appear you have a case of missing variables. The principle missing variable is mass flow, m dot, which is best to isolate and measure directly. Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/ -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
Re: [Vo]:Inexpensive steam/water calorimeter
When I say precise method I mean the inclusion of the specific data to be obtained, where it is obtained, and the formulas applied. You wrote: Indeed, continuous experiments easiest way is to use enthalpy sensors, that gives as total enthalpy for any given moment. Even more simple is to measure the steam pressure inside E-Cat, because it gives directly the total enthalpy, but of course we need to first calibrate this kind of enthalpy sensors. There is no such thing as an actual enthalpy sensor. Only specific enthalpy is sensed. Only incremental enthalpies (delta H) of a system can be measured. To obtain energy of a mass of steam, relative to that mass at some temperature, you need to know the mass of the steam. The mass of an army tank differs from the mass of a small car. Measuring only pressure, or specific enthalpy, provides an insufficient amount of information. To obtain thermal power you need to know the mass flow. The water overflow is a significant part of the flow by volume, more than 2% in some cases by volume. This means the specific enthalpy of the steam is almost insignificant in those cases. If x is the liquid portion by volume, then x/((x+(1-x)*0.0006)) is the portion by mass. This gives the following table which I posted here last January: Liquid LiquidGas PortionPortion Portion by Volume by Mass by Mass - --- --- 0.000 0. 100.00 0.001 0.6252 0.3747 0.002 0.7695 0.2304 0.003 0.8337 0.1662 0.004 0.8700 0.1299 0.005 0.8933 0.1066 0.006 0.9095 0.0904 0.007 0.9215 0.0784 0.008 0.9307 0.0692 0.009 0.9380 0.0619 0.010 0.9439 0.0560 0.011 0.9488 0.0511 0.012 0.9529 0.0470 0.013 0.9564 0.0435 0.014 0.9594 0.0405 I consider the big deal about the definition of steam quality to be a red herring, a diversion from the important issues of measurement of the thermal power carried by the mass flow of a water steam mixture. Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/ On Sep 27, 2011, at 9:16 PM, Jouni Valkonen wrote: First I would add to my previous message, that I think that Peter's method is more accurate than measuring pressure. That is because in order to find out correlation between pressure and enthalpy we need to do very careful calibration. In short run high accuracy may be difficult to archieve, but if experiment lasts for example 10 years continuously, then of course calibrating pressure sensor for enthalpy calculations will give great pay off. Horace wrote: « You have again not specified the precise method you would use. It would appear you have a case of missing variables. The principle missing variable is mass flow, m dot, which is best to isolate and measure directly. » Actually I have defined but it is so simple that you have probably missed it. First of course, we need to know that system is at equilibrium, i.e. water massflow in and massflow out are both matching. If water inflow rate varies a lot then calculations and calibrations are difficult, if system is overflowing. That means that for sure massflow must be known and it must be measured in calibration. But if system is a kettle boiler that does not overflow, then calibration is very easy. In industrial water boilers this is the most reasonable situation because this ensures high steam quality because we can easily superheat steam to remove that 1-2% natural wettness of steam. This reduces the corrosion. Superheating can also be considered in calculations so this does not reduce the accuracy of method. Pressure can be measured either directly with pressure sensor (easiest and most reliable and it is always available in pressure boilers.) or in kettle boilers boiling water temperature can be measured or last method is to measure steam temperature (this works only if steam is not superheated and is thus wet. I.e. steam quality must be measured, therefore this method is not universal). —Jouni On Sep 28, 2011 7:41 AM, Horace Heffner hheff...@mtaonline.net wrote: On Sep 27, 2011, at 9:35 AM, Jouni Valkonen wrote: 2011/9/27 Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com: The simplest solution is to use a Steam Water mixing valve,in which the heated mixture coming out from the demo is mixed with a constant flow of cold water, you can know the enthalpy performance in any moment. Indeed, continuous experiments easiest way is to use enthalpy sensors, that gives as total enthalpy for any given moment. Even more simple is to measure the steam pressure inside E-Cat, because it gives directly the total enthalpy, but of course we need to first calibrate this kind of enthalpy sensors. –Jouni You have again not specified the precise method you would use. It would appear you have a case
Re: [Vo]:Inexpensive steam/water calorimeter
The simplest solution is to use a *Steam Water mixing* *valve*,in which the heated mixture coming out from the demo is mixed with a constant flow of cold water, you can know the enthalpy performance in any moment. Peter On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 7:41 PM, Horace Heffner hheff...@mtaonline.netwrote: A simple inexpensive continuously operating steam/water calorimeter can be obtained using a combined barrel and flow calorimetry. A water container, a barrel, or perhaps a trash can which is silicone sealed for leaks, can be used to condense steam via a submerged copper coil, preferably mostly located near the top of the barrel to avoid imposing a steam pressure head on the tested device. This water container can be insulated cheaply using construction foam board and fiberglass. A stirrer can be driven via a shaft through the foam board. A secondary coil can be used for pumped coolant. A fixed flow rate pump can be used to deliver the coolant flow. The coolant flow circuit can be open or closed. A closed secondary coolant temperature can be maintained via either water or air heat exchange or ice heat exchange. The source of the coolant energy is not important if the Tin and Tout are measured close to the water container, and any tubing between the temperature measuring stations and the water container is insulated. Ideally the secondary flow rate would be measured by a digital flow meter, and driven by a variable speed pump. The coolant flow rate can then be adjusted to suit the coolant delta T and the thermal power of the device under test. Alternatively, an accurate fixed flow rate pump can be chosen with a flow rate approximately matching the expected thermal power of the device under test given the expected coolant delta T. A reasonable goal for the water container temperature is the range 50°C to 70°C. Use of a large water container provides some degree of momentary heat pulse energy integration and confidence in the device thermal power measurements. It applies a significant time constant to the thermal data that reduces the frequency temperature data must be taken. It even permits manual temperature reading if a modestly stable condition is established. This is at the cost of being able to see instant response thermal and energy output curves. There is no need to see such fast response curves if the primary goal is to measure total energy in vs total energy out for a long run. The primary circuit water flow can be pumped directly from the water container. Ideally the primary water flow should be measured by digital flow meter. If a low pressure head is presented to the primary circuit flow pump, then a precision fixed flow rate pump can be used. If precision digital flow meters are not used, and reliance is placed on precision flow rate pumps, then at minimum simple (flow integrating) water meters should be monitored periodically to verify assumed pump mean flow rates. Calibration runs on dummy devices should be used to verify the calorimeter over the thermal range expected. A calibration control run should be used with the device under test to determine the water capacity of the device so the volume of water in the barrel is known in order to provide improved intermediate time thermal power measurements. At the conclusion of a run, the circuits should continue to be driven until thermal equilibrium is obtained and essentially all thermal energy is drained form the device under test. A water depth gage for the barrel may be of use, calibrated to depth vs volume, in order to keep track of the amount of water in the device under test. The secondary circuit input and output temperature should be recorded frequently. Alternatively, a direct delta T can be measured frequently using an appropriate dual thermocouple arrangement, thus providing improved data quality and reducing data acquisition required. Flow stirrers should be used, if feasible, in the secondary circuit prior to the thermometer wells. Barrel water temperature should be monitored. Ideally primary circuit water input temperature and room temperature should be monitored as well. A thermal decline curve should be measured for the water container when there is no primary circuit flow, and the water is stirred. The calorimeter constant C(dT) as a function of the difference between room temperature and water contained temperature (dT) should be determined. The curve C(dT) can be fit to a polynomial using regression analysis for convenient use in data analysis. Experience shows this method is not very accurate if the water container is not well insulated. This is due to room drafts, variations in humidity and temperature during the day, etc. Ideally active insulation could be used, whereby an extra envelope surrounds the water container insulation and the temperature there is maintained at the temperature of the water, thereby producing a dT = 0, and no heat loss.
Re: [Vo]:Inexpensive steam/water calorimeter
2011/9/27 Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com: The simplest solution is to use a Steam Water mixing valve,in which the heated mixture coming out from the demo is mixed with a constant flow of cold water, you can know the enthalpy performance in any moment. Indeed, continuous experiments easiest way is to use enthalpy sensors, that gives as total enthalpy for any given moment. Even more simple is to measure the steam pressure inside E-Cat, because it gives directly the total enthalpy, but of course we need to first calibrate this kind of enthalpy sensors. –Jouni
Re: [Vo]:Inexpensive steam/water calorimeter
It might be nice to know the metal mass and temps as well. - Original Message - From: Horace Heffner hheff...@mtaonline.net To: Vortex-L vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2011 12:41 PM Subject: [Vo]:Inexpensive steam/water calorimeter A simple inexpensive continuously operating steam/water calorimeter can be obtained using a combined barrel and flow calorimetry. A water container, a barrel, or perhaps a trash can which is silicone sealed for leaks, can be used to condense steam via a submerged copper coil, preferably mostly located near the top of the barrel to avoid imposing a steam pressure head on the tested device. This water container can be insulated cheaply using construction foam board and fiberglass. A stirrer can be driven via a shaft through the foam board. A secondary coil can be used for pumped coolant. A fixed flow rate pump can be used to deliver the coolant flow. The coolant flow circuit can be open or closed. A closed secondary coolant temperature can be maintained via either water or air heat exchange or ice heat exchange. The source of the coolant energy is not important if the Tin and Tout are measured close to the water container, and any tubing between the temperature measuring stations and the water container is insulated. Ideally the secondary flow rate would be measured by a digital flow meter, and driven by a variable speed pump. The coolant flow rate can then be adjusted to suit the coolant delta T and the thermal power of the device under test. Alternatively, an accurate fixed flow rate pump can be chosen with a flow rate approximately matching the expected thermal power of the device under test given the expected coolant delta T. A reasonable goal for the water container temperature is the range 50°C to 70°C. Use of a large water container provides some degree of momentary heat pulse energy integration and confidence in the device thermal power measurements. It applies a significant time constant to the thermal data that reduces the frequency temperature data must be taken. It even permits manual temperature reading if a modestly stable condition is established. This is at the cost of being able to see instant response thermal and energy output curves. There is no need to see such fast response curves if the primary goal is to measure total energy in vs total energy out for a long run. The primary circuit water flow can be pumped directly from the water container. Ideally the primary water flow should be measured by digital flow meter. If a low pressure head is presented to the primary circuit flow pump, then a precision fixed flow rate pump can be used. If precision digital flow meters are not used, and reliance is placed on precision flow rate pumps, then at minimum simple (flow integrating) water meters should be monitored periodically to verify assumed pump mean flow rates. Calibration runs on dummy devices should be used to verify the calorimeter over the thermal range expected. A calibration control run should be used with the device under test to determine the water capacity of the device so the volume of water in the barrel is known in order to provide improved intermediate time thermal power measurements. At the conclusion of a run, the circuits should continue to be driven until thermal equilibrium is obtained and essentially all thermal energy is drained form the device under test. A water depth gage for the barrel may be of use, calibrated to depth vs volume, in order to keep track of the amount of water in the device under test. The secondary circuit input and output temperature should be recorded frequently. Alternatively, a direct delta T can be measured frequently using an appropriate dual thermocouple arrangement, thus providing improved data quality and reducing data acquisition required. Flow stirrers should be used, if feasible, in the secondary circuit prior to the thermometer wells. Barrel water temperature should be monitored. Ideally primary circuit water input temperature and room temperature should be monitored as well. A thermal decline curve should be measured for the water container when there is no primary circuit flow, and the water is stirred. The calorimeter constant C(dT) as a function of the difference between room temperature and water contained temperature (dT) should be determined. The curve C(dT) can be fit to a polynomial using regression analysis for convenient use in data analysis. Experience shows this method is not very accurate if the water container is not well insulated. This is due to room drafts, variations in humidity and temperature during the day, etc. Ideally active insulation could be used, whereby an extra envelope surrounds the water container insulation and the temperature there is maintained at the temperature of the water, thereby producing a dT = 0, and no heat loss. This is excessive for this approach, however, the goals of which are cheap, simple, and good enough.
Re: [Vo]:Inexpensive steam/water calorimeter
Dear Jouni, I have described this method long ago, for individual e-Cats e.g. here: http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com/2011/05/call-for-perfect-e-cat-experiment.html See please: http://www.onlineconversion.com/mixing_water.htm I have asked Rossii to use this method but he has ignored it with hostility- I could never understand why he don't want good correct measurements Peter On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 8:35 PM, Jouni Valkonen jounivalko...@gmail.comwrote: 2011/9/27 Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com: The simplest solution is to use a Steam Water mixing valve,in which the heated mixture coming out from the demo is mixed with a constant flow of cold water, you can know the enthalpy performance in any moment. Indeed, continuous experiments easiest way is to use enthalpy sensors, that gives as total enthalpy for any given moment. Even more simple is to measure the steam pressure inside E-Cat, because it gives directly the total enthalpy, but of course we need to first calibrate this kind of enthalpy sensors. –Jouni -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
Re: [Vo]:Inexpensive steam/water calorimeter
On Sep 27, 2011, at 10:49 AM, Peter Gluck wrote: Dear Jouni, I have described this method long ago, for individual e-Cats A key part of this idea is the reliability obtained by the averaging performed by the large thermal mass of the water container. I am suggesting a hybrid design, a hybrid flow and partial isoperibolic method. It would of course be feasible to employ a mixer and extra thermometer just prior to the water container which does the averaging, but that would also require an extra pump, and flow meter. I should also note this idea was initially largely for my own use. I have a potential use for calorimetry in the multiple kW range. I optimize the cheap variable when designing for my own purposes, with some constraints regarding reliability and accuracy. This is because I am so tight with money the little birdies say cheep cheep when they fly over me. 8^) I have a 5 thermometer system that should work OK with this approach even with manual recording and spreadsheet analysis. In winter I have the advantage of practically unlimited cooling capacity here in Alaska. Unfortunately my two peristaltic pumps are too small for this power range. I can readily afford the barrel, blue board insulation, copper pipe and hose, fittings etc. Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
Re: [Vo]:Inexpensive steam/water calorimeter
On Sep 27, 2011, at 9:35 AM, Jouni Valkonen wrote: 2011/9/27 Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com: The simplest solution is to use a Steam Water mixing valve,in which the heated mixture coming out from the demo is mixed with a constant flow of cold water, you can know the enthalpy performance in any moment. Indeed, continuous experiments easiest way is to use enthalpy sensors, that gives as total enthalpy for any given moment. Even more simple is to measure the steam pressure inside E-Cat, because it gives directly the total enthalpy, but of course we need to first calibrate this kind of enthalpy sensors. –Jouni You have again not specified the precise method you would use. It would appear you have a case of missing variables. The principle missing variable is mass flow, m dot, which is best to isolate and measure directly. Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
Re: [Vo]:Inexpensive steam/water calorimeter
First I would add to my previous message, that I think that Peter's method is more accurate than measuring pressure. That is because in order to find out correlation between pressure and enthalpy we need to do very careful calibration. In short run high accuracy may be difficult to archieve, but if experiment lasts for example 10 years continuously, then of course calibrating pressure sensor for enthalpy calculations will give great pay off. Horace wrote: « You have again not specified the precise method you would use. It would appear you have a case of missing variables. The principle missing variable is mass flow, m dot, which is best to isolate and measure directly. » Actually I have defined but it is so simple that you have probably missed it. First of course, we need to know that system is at equilibrium, i.e. water massflow in and massflow out are both matching. If water inflow rate varies a lot then calculations and calibrations are difficult, if system is overflowing. That means that for sure massflow must be known and it must be measured in calibration. But if system is a kettle boiler that does not overflow, then calibration is very easy. In industrial water boilers this is the most reasonable situation because this ensures high steam quality because we can easily superheat steam to remove that 1-2% natural wettness of steam. This reduces the corrosion. Superheating can also be considered in calculations so this does not reduce the accuracy of method. Pressure can be measured either directly with pressure sensor (easiest and most reliable and it is always available in pressure boilers.) or in kettle boilers boiling water temperature can be measured or last method is to measure steam temperature (this works only if steam is not superheated and is thus wet. I.e. steam quality must be measured, therefore this method is not universal). —Jouni On Sep 28, 2011 7:41 AM, Horace Heffner hheff...@mtaonline.net wrote: On Sep 27, 2011, at 9:35 AM, Jouni Valkonen wrote: 2011/9/27 Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com: The simplest solution is to use a Steam Water mixing valve,in which the heated mixture coming out from the demo is mixed with a constant flow of cold water, you can know the enthalpy performance in any moment. Indeed, continuous experiments easiest way is to use enthalpy sensors, that gives as total enthalpy for any given moment. Even more simple is to measure the steam pressure inside E-Cat, because it gives directly the total enthalpy, but of course we need to first calibrate this kind of enthalpy sensors. –Jouni You have again not specified the precise method you would use. It would appear you have a case of missing variables. The principle missing variable is mass flow, m dot, which is best to isolate and measure directly. Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
Re: [Vo]:Inexpensive steam/water calorimeter
Dear Horace, The missing variable is cooling water flow- to be established by Rossi- water that carries the excess heat generated by the 52 (?) Fat Cats and is partially transformed in steam- F1. The flow of mixing water- condensing the steam is say, 5-10 times greater than F1 see please the formula given in my paper. No peristaltic but other types of positive displacement pumps to be used, e,g. gear pumps- for which the flow is not influenced by counterpressure. This system measures the enthalpy in any moment, Including the start up period and possibly the heat after death. The formula for efficiency is actually O/3I because electrical energy is at least 3 times more valuable or expensive than thermal energy Peter On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 7:38 AM, Horace Heffner hheff...@mtaonline.netwrote: On Sep 27, 2011, at 9:35 AM, Jouni Valkonen wrote: 2011/9/27 Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com: The simplest solution is to use a Steam Water mixing valve,in which the heated mixture coming out from the demo is mixed with a constant flow of cold water, you can know the enthalpy performance in any moment. Indeed, continuous experiments easiest way is to use enthalpy sensors, that gives as total enthalpy for any given moment. Even more simple is to measure the steam pressure inside E-Cat, because it gives directly the total enthalpy, but of course we need to first calibrate this kind of enthalpy sensors. –Jouni You have again not specified the precise method you would use. It would appear you have a case of missing variables. The principle missing variable is mass flow, m dot, which is best to isolate and measure directly. Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~**hheffner/http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/ -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
Re: [Vo]:Inexpensive steam/water calorimeter
We have to measure HEAT OUT (enthalpy) and this is the unique relevant variable, steam, water, pressure, dryness, even F1 (this HAS to be measured anyway) are not relevant. When I speak about steam water mixing it is because I have used the method many times many years ago. But I bet that Rossi who is attracted by complications will not use this simplissim clear method. Peter On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 8:16 AM, Jouni Valkonen jounivalko...@gmail.comwrote: First I would add to my previous message, that I think that Peter's method is more accurate than measuring pressure. That is because in order to find out correlation between pressure and enthalpy we need to do very careful calibration. In short run high accuracy may be difficult to archieve, but if experiment lasts for example 10 years continuously, then of course calibrating pressure sensor for enthalpy calculations will give great pay off. Horace wrote: « You have again not specified the precise method you would use. It would appear you have a case of missing variables. The principle missing variable is mass flow, m dot, which is best to isolate and measure directly. » Actually I have defined but it is so simple that you have probably missed it. First of course, we need to know that system is at equilibrium, i.e. water massflow in and massflow out are both matching. If water inflow rate varies a lot then calculations and calibrations are difficult, if system is overflowing. That means that for sure massflow must be known and it must be measured in calibration. But if system is a kettle boiler that does not overflow, then calibration is very easy. In industrial water boilers this is the most reasonable situation because this ensures high steam quality because we can easily superheat steam to remove that 1-2% natural wettness of steam. This reduces the corrosion. Superheating can also be considered in calculations so this does not reduce the accuracy of method. Pressure can be measured either directly with pressure sensor (easiest and most reliable and it is always available in pressure boilers.) or in kettle boilers boiling water temperature can be measured or last method is to measure steam temperature (this works only if steam is not superheated and is thus wet. I.e. steam quality must be measured, therefore this method is not universal). —Jouni On Sep 28, 2011 7:41 AM, Horace Heffner hheff...@mtaonline.net wrote: On Sep 27, 2011, at 9:35 AM, Jouni Valkonen wrote: 2011/9/27 Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com: The simplest solution is to use a Steam Water mixing valve,in which the heated mixture coming out from the demo is mixed with a constant flow of cold water, you can know the enthalpy performance in any moment. Indeed, continuous experiments easiest way is to use enthalpy sensors, that gives as total enthalpy for any given moment. Even more simple is to measure the steam pressure inside E-Cat, because it gives directly the total enthalpy, but of course we need to first calibrate this kind of enthalpy sensors. –Jouni You have again not specified the precise method you would use. It would appear you have a case of missing variables. The principle missing variable is mass flow, m dot, which is best to isolate and measure directly. Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/ -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
