Re: [webkit-dev] Size Of Ruby Text?
WebKit enforces a minimum font size of 9px when no explicit font size is
specified. This means that the font for rt cannot fall below 9px if it is
relative to the user agent default. It may be that we want to consider
modifying this minimum for ruby text and allow it to go below 9px though. I'm
not sure.
If you make a really big Ruby (e.g., ruby style=font-size:96px and then
modify the font-size percentage on the rt, you should be able to see it take
effect.
We should probably just study real-world Japanese examples to see how small
Ruby typically is allowed to get. If it can go below 9px and still be
readable, we should perhaps consider allowing that.
In terms of excluding Ruby text from the overall line height, I don't think the
font-size of the rt is particularly relevant. You just want to hack the Ruby
to turn the ruby text into overflow rather than having it be part of the
overall height of the inline-block.
dave
(hy...@apple.com)
On Nov 3, 2010, at 1:20 PM, Eric Mader wrote:
Hi,
As part of my work on ruby text enhancements, I'm implementing the option of
not counting the height of the ruby text in the overall line height. As part
of this, I wanted to play with changing the size of the ruby text. I'm trying
to do this by changing the following lines in WebKit/WebCore/css/html.css:
ruby rt {
display: block;
font-size: 60%; /* make slightly larger than 50% for better readability */
text-align: center;
text-decoration: none;
}
However, when I change the font-size: attribute to, say, 50%, I don't see any
difference in the size of the ruby text. (I even tried 25% just to be sure).
Is this value being set somewhere else?
Regards,
Eric Mader
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Re: [webkit-dev] Size Of Ruby Text?
On Nov 3, 2010, at 8:56 AM, David Hyatt wrote:
WebKit enforces a minimum font size of 9px when no explicit font size is
specified. This means that the font for rt cannot fall below 9px if it is
relative to the user agent default. It may be that we want to consider
modifying this minimum for ruby text and allow it to go below 9px though.
I'm not sure.
Yes, that's probably what I'm seeing. I'm using default font size, which is
probably 12pt.
If you make a really big Ruby (e.g., ruby style=font-size:96px and then
modify the font-size percentage on the rt, you should be able to see it
take effect.
We should probably just study real-world Japanese examples to see how small
Ruby typically is allowed to get. If it can go below 9px and still be
readable, we should perhaps consider allowing that.
I'm sure the detailed spec. addresses this issue. I'll review it.
In terms of excluding Ruby text from the overall line height, I don't think
the font-size of the rt is particularly relevant. You just want to hack
the Ruby to turn the ruby text into overflow rather than having it be part of
the overall height of the inline-block.
Of course. The website I was using has the line height set too tight for
correct display this way, and I just wanted to try a smaller size to see if it
looked better. OTOH, that site loads a style sheet that overrides the ruby text
font-size to 6pt, so I can't easily override it, and its' probably displaying
as 9pt anyhow.
dave
(hy...@apple.com)
Regards,
Eric
On Nov 3, 2010, at 1:20 PM, Eric Mader wrote:
Hi,
As part of my work on ruby text enhancements, I'm implementing the option of
not counting the height of the ruby text in the overall line height. As part
of this, I wanted to play with changing the size of the ruby text. I'm
trying to do this by changing the following lines in
WebKit/WebCore/css/html.css:
ruby rt {
display: block;
font-size: 60%; /* make slightly larger than 50% for better readability
*/
text-align: center;
text-decoration: none;
}
However, when I change the font-size: attribute to, say, 50%, I don't see
any difference in the size of the ruby text. (I even tried 25% just to be
sure). Is this value being set somewhere else?
Regards,
Eric Mader
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Re: [webkit-dev] Size Of Ruby Text?
On Nov 3, 2010, at 2:05 PM, Eric Mader wrote: Of course. The website I was using has the line height set too tight for correct display this way, and I just wanted to try a smaller size to see if it looked better. OTOH, that site loads a style sheet that overrides the ruby text font-size to 6pt, so I can't easily override it, and its' probably displaying as 9pt anyhow. We honor small explicitly set font sizes. The 9px minimum is only enforced when it's impossible for the site to know what the real font size would have been, i.e., if you are relative to the user agent default. dave ___ webkit-dev mailing list webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org http://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/webkit-dev
Re: [webkit-dev] Size Of Ruby Text?
In printing the standard is 50% of the base text. For larger point sizes like
headings, the size of ruby is often smaller than 50%.
http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/NOTE-jlreq-20090604/#en-subheading2_3_3
So, how about we default to 50% and see how they come out. Glyphs designed for
ruby are optimized for those small point sizes. It is possible on some screen
resolutions we might want to make it a bit bigger but as screen resolution gets
higher I think it makes more sense to stick to 50% following the standard in
printing.
- kida
On 2010/11/03, at 12:05, Eric Mader wrote:
On Nov 3, 2010, at 8:56 AM, David Hyatt wrote:
WebKit enforces a minimum font size of 9px when no explicit font size is
specified. This means that the font for rt cannot fall below 9px if it is
relative to the user agent default. It may be that we want to consider
modifying this minimum for ruby text and allow it to go below 9px though.
I'm not sure.
Yes, that's probably what I'm seeing. I'm using default font size, which is
probably 12pt.
If you make a really big Ruby (e.g., ruby style=font-size:96px and then
modify the font-size percentage on the rt, you should be able to see it
take effect.
We should probably just study real-world Japanese examples to see how small
Ruby typically is allowed to get. If it can go below 9px and still be
readable, we should perhaps consider allowing that.
I'm sure the detailed spec. addresses this issue. I'll review it.
In terms of excluding Ruby text from the overall line height, I don't think
the font-size of the rt is particularly relevant. You just want to hack
the Ruby to turn the ruby text into overflow rather than having it be part
of the overall height of the inline-block.
Of course. The website I was using has the line height set too tight for
correct display this way, and I just wanted to try a smaller size to see if
it looked better. OTOH, that site loads a style sheet that overrides the ruby
text font-size to 6pt, so I can't easily override it, and its' probably
displaying as 9pt anyhow.
dave
(hy...@apple.com)
Regards,
Eric
On Nov 3, 2010, at 1:20 PM, Eric Mader wrote:
Hi,
As part of my work on ruby text enhancements, I'm implementing the option
of not counting the height of the ruby text in the overall line height. As
part of this, I wanted to play with changing the size of the ruby text. I'm
trying to do this by changing the following lines in
WebKit/WebCore/css/html.css:
ruby rt {
display: block;
font-size: 60%; /* make slightly larger than 50% for better readability
*/
text-align: center;
text-decoration: none;
}
However, when I change the font-size: attribute to, say, 50%, I don't see
any difference in the size of the ruby text. (I even tried 25% just to be
sure). Is this value being set somewhere else?
Regards,
Eric Mader
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Re: [webkit-dev] Size Of Ruby Text?
That document also states:
When the size of base characters is very small (for e.g. smaller than seven
points), ruby which is half the size, will be even more small and illegible. In
such cases where the size of base characters is very small, ruby is not a
suitable method of annotation. In those cases, consider other annotation
methods such as adding the reading in parenthesis immediately after the base
character.
It also sounds like we need to special case Ruby elements and allow their font
sizes to go down to about 5px instead of 9px. Anything lower, and you're
getting to the point where ruby was unsuitable (according to the text above)
anyway, since the base text was so small.
I filed:
https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=48942
dave
(hy...@apple.com)
On Nov 3, 2010, at 2:29 PM, Yasuo Kida wrote:
In printing the standard is 50% of the base text. For larger point sizes like
headings, the size of ruby is often smaller than 50%.
http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/NOTE-jlreq-20090604/#en-subheading2_3_3
So, how about we default to 50% and see how they come out. Glyphs designed
for ruby are optimized for those small point sizes. It is possible on some
screen resolutions we might want to make it a bit bigger but as screen
resolution gets higher I think it makes more sense to stick to 50% following
the standard in printing.
- kida
On 2010/11/03, at 12:05, Eric Mader wrote:
On Nov 3, 2010, at 8:56 AM, David Hyatt wrote:
WebKit enforces a minimum font size of 9px when no explicit font size is
specified. This means that the font for rt cannot fall below 9px if it
is relative to the user agent default. It may be that we want to consider
modifying this minimum for ruby text and allow it to go below 9px though.
I'm not sure.
Yes, that's probably what I'm seeing. I'm using default font size, which is
probably 12pt.
If you make a really big Ruby (e.g., ruby style=font-size:96px and then
modify the font-size percentage on the rt, you should be able to see it
take effect.
We should probably just study real-world Japanese examples to see how small
Ruby typically is allowed to get. If it can go below 9px and still be
readable, we should perhaps consider allowing that.
I'm sure the detailed spec. addresses this issue. I'll review it.
In terms of excluding Ruby text from the overall line height, I don't think
the font-size of the rt is particularly relevant. You just want to hack
the Ruby to turn the ruby text into overflow rather than having it be part
of the overall height of the inline-block.
Of course. The website I was using has the line height set too tight for
correct display this way, and I just wanted to try a smaller size to see if
it looked better. OTOH, that site loads a style sheet that overrides the
ruby text font-size to 6pt, so I can't easily override it, and its' probably
displaying as 9pt anyhow.
dave
(hy...@apple.com)
Regards,
Eric
On Nov 3, 2010, at 1:20 PM, Eric Mader wrote:
Hi,
As part of my work on ruby text enhancements, I'm implementing the option
of not counting the height of the ruby text in the overall line height. As
part of this, I wanted to play with changing the size of the ruby text.
I'm trying to do this by changing the following lines in
WebKit/WebCore/css/html.css:
ruby rt {
display: block;
font-size: 60%; /* make slightly larger than 50% for better
readability */
text-align: center;
text-decoration: none;
}
However, when I change the font-size: attribute to, say, 50%, I don't see
any difference in the size of the ruby text. (I even tried 25% just to be
sure). Is this value being set somewhere else?
Regards,
Eric Mader
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Re: [webkit-dev] Size Of Ruby Text?
I think 5px is way too small. Maybe 7 or 8 at least but even those are
really hard to read in high-resolution displays. See
demohttp://plexode.com/eval3/#ht=5px%3A%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E今日%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20style%3D%22font-size%3A5px%3B%22%3Eきょう%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3Eは%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E良%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20style%3D%22font-size%3A5px%3B%22%3Eよ%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3Eい%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E天気%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20%20style%3D%22font-size%3A5px%3B%22%3Eてんき%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3E%3Cbr%3E%0A6px%3A%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E今日%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20style%3D%22font-size%3A6px%3B%22%3Eきょう%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3Eは%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E良%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20style%3D%22font-size%3A6px%3B%22%3Eよ%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3Eい%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E天気%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20%20style%3D%22font-size%3A6px%3B%22%3Eてんき%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3E%3Cbr%3E%0A7px%3A%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E今日%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20style%3D%22font-size%3A7px%3B%22%3Eきょう%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3Eは%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E良%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20style%3D%22font-size%3A7px%3B%22%3Eよ%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3Eい%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E天気%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20%20style%3D%22font-size%3A7px%3B%22%3Eてんき%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3E%3Cbr%3E%0A8px%3A%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E今日%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20style%3D%22font-size%3A8px%3B%22%3Eきょう%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3Eは%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E良%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20style%3D%22font-size%3A8px%3B%22%3Eよ%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3Eい%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E天気%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20%20style%3D%22font-size%3A8px%3B%22%3Eてんき%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3E%3Cbr%3E%3C%2Fdiv%3Eohh=1ohj=1jt=ojh=1ojj=1ms=100oth=0otj=0cex=1
.
- Ryosuke
On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 12:47 PM, David Hyatt hy...@apple.com wrote:
That document also states:
When the size of base characters is very small (for e.g. smaller than
seven points), ruby which is half the size, will be even more small and
illegible. In such cases where the size of base characters is very small,
ruby is not a suitable method of annotation. In those cases, consider other
annotation methods such as adding the reading in parenthesis immediately
after the base character.
It also sounds like we need to special case Ruby elements and allow their
font sizes to go down to about 5px instead of 9px. Anything lower, and
you're getting to the point where ruby was unsuitable (according to the text
above) anyway, since the base text was so small.
I filed:
https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=48942
dave
(hy...@apple.com)
On Nov 3, 2010, at 2:29 PM, Yasuo Kida wrote:
In printing the standard is 50% of the base text. For larger point sizes
like headings, the size of ruby is often smaller than 50%.
http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/NOTE-jlreq-20090604/#en-subheading2_3_3
So, how about we default to 50% and see how they come out. Glyphs designed
for ruby are optimized for those small point sizes. It is possible on some
screen resolutions we might want to make it a bit bigger but as screen
resolution gets higher I think it makes more sense to stick to 50% following
the standard in printing.
- kida
On 2010/11/03, at 12:05, Eric Mader wrote:
On Nov 3, 2010, at 8:56 AM, David Hyatt wrote:
WebKit enforces a minimum font size of 9px when no explicit font size is
specified. This means that the font for rt cannot fall below 9px if it is
relative to the user agent default. It may be that we want to consider
modifying this minimum for ruby text and allow it to go below 9px though.
I'm not sure.
Yes, that's probably what I'm seeing. I'm using default font size, which is
probably 12pt.
If you make a really big Ruby (e.g., ruby style=font-size:96px and then
modify the font-size percentage on the rt, you should be able to see it
take effect.
We should probably just study real-world Japanese examples to see how small
Ruby typically is allowed to get. If it can go below 9px and still be
readable, we should perhaps consider allowing that.
I'm sure the detailed spec. addresses this issue. I'll review it.
In terms of excluding Ruby text from the overall line height, I don't think
the font-size of the rt is particularly relevant. You just want to hack
the Ruby to turn the ruby text into overflow rather than having it be part
of the overall height of the inline-block.
Of course. The website I was using has the line height set too tight for
correct display this way, and I just wanted to try a smaller size to see if
it looked better. OTOH, that site loads a style sheet that overrides the
ruby text font-size to 6pt, so I can't easily override it, and its' probably
displaying as 9pt anyhow.
dave
(hy...@apple.com)
Regards,
Eric
On Nov 3, 2010, at 1:20 PM, Eric Mader wrote:
Hi,
As part of my work on ruby text enhancements, I'm implementing the option
of not counting the height of the ruby text in the overall line height. As
part of this, I wanted to play with changing the size of the ruby text. I'm
trying to do this by changing the following lines in
WebKit/WebCore/css/html.css:
ruby rt {
display: block;
font-size: 60%; /* make slightly larger than
Re: [webkit-dev] Size Of Ruby Text?
Yeah, that demo makes me think maybe 9px is fine after all. :)
dave
On Nov 3, 2010, at 3:56 PM, Ryosuke Niwa wrote:
I think 5px is way too small. Maybe 7 or 8 at least but even those are
really hard to read in high-resolution displays. See demo.
- Ryosuke
On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 12:47 PM, David Hyatt hy...@apple.com wrote:
That document also states:
When the size of base characters is very small (for e.g. smaller than seven
points), ruby which is half the size, will be even more small and illegible.
In such cases where the size of base characters is very small, ruby is not a
suitable method of annotation. In those cases, consider other annotation
methods such as adding the reading in parenthesis immediately after the base
character.
It also sounds like we need to special case Ruby elements and allow their
font sizes to go down to about 5px instead of 9px. Anything lower, and
you're getting to the point where ruby was unsuitable (according to the text
above) anyway, since the base text was so small.
I filed:
https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=48942
dave
(hy...@apple.com)
On Nov 3, 2010, at 2:29 PM, Yasuo Kida wrote:
In printing the standard is 50% of the base text. For larger point sizes
like headings, the size of ruby is often smaller than 50%.
http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/NOTE-jlreq-20090604/#en-subheading2_3_3
So, how about we default to 50% and see how they come out. Glyphs designed
for ruby are optimized for those small point sizes. It is possible on some
screen resolutions we might want to make it a bit bigger but as screen
resolution gets higher I think it makes more sense to stick to 50% following
the standard in printing.
- kida
On 2010/11/03, at 12:05, Eric Mader wrote:
On Nov 3, 2010, at 8:56 AM, David Hyatt wrote:
WebKit enforces a minimum font size of 9px when no explicit font size is
specified. This means that the font for rt cannot fall below 9px if it
is relative to the user agent default. It may be that we want to consider
modifying this minimum for ruby text and allow it to go below 9px though.
I'm not sure.
Yes, that's probably what I'm seeing. I'm using default font size, which is
probably 12pt.
If you make a really big Ruby (e.g., ruby style=font-size:96px and
then modify the font-size percentage on the rt, you should be able to
see it take effect.
We should probably just study real-world Japanese examples to see how
small Ruby typically is allowed to get. If it can go below 9px and still
be readable, we should perhaps consider allowing that.
I'm sure the detailed spec. addresses this issue. I'll review it.
In terms of excluding Ruby text from the overall line height, I don't
think the font-size of the rt is particularly relevant. You just want
to hack the Ruby to turn the ruby text into overflow rather than having it
be part of the overall height of the inline-block.
Of course. The website I was using has the line height set too tight for
correct display this way, and I just wanted to try a smaller size to see if
it looked better. OTOH, that site loads a style sheet that overrides the
ruby text font-size to 6pt, so I can't easily override it, and its'
probably displaying as 9pt anyhow.
dave
(hy...@apple.com)
Regards,
Eric
On Nov 3, 2010, at 1:20 PM, Eric Mader wrote:
Hi,
As part of my work on ruby text enhancements, I'm implementing the option
of not counting the height of the ruby text in the overall line height.
As part of this, I wanted to play with changing the size of the ruby
text. I'm trying to do this by changing the following lines in
WebKit/WebCore/css/html.css:
ruby rt {
display: block;
font-size: 60%; /* make slightly larger than 50% for better
readability */
text-align: center;
text-decoration: none;
}
However, when I change the font-size: attribute to, say, 50%, I don't see
any difference in the size of the ruby text. (I even tried 25% just to be
sure). Is this value being set somewhere else?
Regards,
Eric Mader
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Re: [webkit-dev] Size Of Ruby Text?
Thank you Ryosuke. This is a good demo. 5px is only barely legible and I agree
it is too small. 6px is legible but not fun to read. 7px looks reasonable lower
bound to me.
12pt text with 96dpi would translates to 16px, 50% ruby would be 8px. 10.5pt
which is often used by printed books is 14px, 50% ruby would be 7px.
I do not think we should make the limit larger than 8px. The larger the ruby
size gets the more often you need to put extra gaps in the base text, which
makes the base text harder to read. See the example.
- kida
On 2010/11/03, at 14:01, David Hyatt wrote:
Yeah, that demo makes me think maybe 9px is fine after all. :)
dave
On Nov 3, 2010, at 3:56 PM, Ryosuke Niwa wrote:
I think 5px is way too small. Maybe 7 or 8 at least but even those are
really hard to read in high-resolution displays. See demo.
- Ryosuke
On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 12:47 PM, David Hyatt hy...@apple.com wrote:
That document also states:
When the size of base characters is very small (for e.g. smaller than seven
points), ruby which is half the size, will be even more small and illegible.
In such cases where the size of base characters is very small, ruby is not a
suitable method of annotation. In those cases, consider other annotation
methods such as adding the reading in parenthesis immediately after the base
character.
It also sounds like we need to special case Ruby elements and allow their
font sizes to go down to about 5px instead of 9px. Anything lower, and
you're getting to the point where ruby was unsuitable (according to the text
above) anyway, since the base text was so small.
I filed:
https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=48942
dave
(hy...@apple.com)
On Nov 3, 2010, at 2:29 PM, Yasuo Kida wrote:
In printing the standard is 50% of the base text. For larger point sizes
like headings, the size of ruby is often smaller than 50%.
http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/NOTE-jlreq-20090604/#en-subheading2_3_3
So, how about we default to 50% and see how they come out. Glyphs designed
for ruby are optimized for those small point sizes. It is possible on some
screen resolutions we might want to make it a bit bigger but as screen
resolution gets higher I think it makes more sense to stick to 50%
following the standard in printing.
- kida
On 2010/11/03, at 12:05, Eric Mader wrote:
On Nov 3, 2010, at 8:56 AM, David Hyatt wrote:
WebKit enforces a minimum font size of 9px when no explicit font size is
specified. This means that the font for rt cannot fall below 9px if it
is relative to the user agent default. It may be that we want to
consider modifying this minimum for ruby text and allow it to go below
9px though. I'm not sure.
Yes, that's probably what I'm seeing. I'm using default font size, which
is probably 12pt.
If you make a really big Ruby (e.g., ruby style=font-size:96px and
then modify the font-size percentage on the rt, you should be able to
see it take effect.
We should probably just study real-world Japanese examples to see how
small Ruby typically is allowed to get. If it can go below 9px and still
be readable, we should perhaps consider allowing that.
I'm sure the detailed spec. addresses this issue. I'll review it.
In terms of excluding Ruby text from the overall line height, I don't
think the font-size of the rt is particularly relevant. You just want
to hack the Ruby to turn the ruby text into overflow rather than having
it be part of the overall height of the inline-block.
Of course. The website I was using has the line height set too tight for
correct display this way, and I just wanted to try a smaller size to see
if it looked better. OTOH, that site loads a style sheet that overrides
the ruby text font-size to 6pt, so I can't easily override it, and its'
probably displaying as 9pt anyhow.
dave
(hy...@apple.com)
Regards,
Eric
On Nov 3, 2010, at 1:20 PM, Eric Mader wrote:
Hi,
As part of my work on ruby text enhancements, I'm implementing the
option of not counting the height of the ruby text in the overall line
height. As part of this, I wanted to play with changing the size of the
ruby text. I'm trying to do this by changing the following lines in
WebKit/WebCore/css/html.css:
ruby rt {
display: block;
font-size: 60%; /* make slightly larger than 50% for better
readability */
text-align: center;
text-decoration: none;
}
However, when I change the font-size: attribute to, say, 50%, I don't
see any difference in the size of the ruby text. (I even tried 25% just
to be sure). Is this value being set somewhere else?
Regards,
Eric Mader
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Re: [webkit-dev] Size Of Ruby Text?
Does this work? http://plexode.com/eval3/#ht=%3Cdiv%20style%3D%22font-size%3A16px%3B%22%3E%0A16px-8px%3A%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E国%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20style%3D%22font-size%3A8px%3B%22%3Eくに%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3Eの%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E象徴%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20style%3D%22font-size%3A8px%3B%22%3Eしょうちょう%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3E%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E鬼門%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20style%3D%22font-size%3A8px%3B%22%3Eきもん%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3Eの%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E方角%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20style%3D%22font-size%3A8px%3B%22%3Eほうがく%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3Eを%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E凝視%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20%20style%3D%22font-size%3A8px%3B%22%3Eぎょうし%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3Eする。%3Cbr%3E%0A16px-9px%3A%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E国%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20style%3D%22font-size%3A9px%3B%22%3Eくに%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3Eの%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E象徴%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20style%3D%22font-size%3A9px%3B%22%3Eしょうちょう%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3E%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E鬼門%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20style%3D%22font-size%3A9px%3B%22%3Eきもん%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3Eの%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E方角%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20style%3D%22font-size%3A9px%3B%22%3Eほうがく%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3Eを%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E凝視%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20%20style%3D%22font-size%3A9px%3B%22%3Eぎょうし%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3Eする。%3Cbr%3E%3Cbr%3E%0A%3C%2Fdiv%3E%0A%0A%3Cdiv%20style%3D%22font-size%3A14px%3B%22%3E%0A14px-7px%3A%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E国%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20style%3D%22font-size%3A7px%3B%22%3Eくに%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3Eの%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E象徴%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20style%3D%22font-size%3A7px%3B%22%3Eしょうちょう%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3E%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E鬼門%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20style%3D%22font-size%3A7px%3B%22%3Eきもん%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3Eの%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E方角%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20style%3D%22font-size%3A7px%3B%22%3Eほうがく%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3Eを%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E凝視%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20%20style%3D%22font-size%3A7px%3B%22%3Eぎょうし%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3Eする。%3Cbr%3E%0A14px-9px%3A%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E国%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20style%3D%22font-size%3A8px%3B%22%3Eくに%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3Eの%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E象徴%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20style%3D%22font-size%3A8px%3B%22%3Eしょうちょう%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3E%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E鬼門%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20style%3D%22font-size%3A8px%3B%22%3Eきもん%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3Eの%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E方角%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20style%3D%22font-size%3A8px%3B%22%3Eほうがく%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3Eを%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E凝視%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20%20style%3D%22font-size%3A8px%3B%22%3Eぎょうし%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3Eする。%3Cbr%3E%0A%3C%2Fdiv%3E%0Aohh=1ohj=1jt=ojh=1ojj=1ms=100oth=0otj=0cex=1 According to Choice of Size for Ruby Characters in Requirements for Japanese Text Layout: (note 2) When the size of base characters is very small (for e.g. smaller than seven points), ruby which is half the size, will be even more small and illegible. In such cases where the size of base characters is very small, ruby is not a suitable method of annotation. In those cases, consider other annotation methods such as adding the reading in parenthesis immediately after the base character. - kida On 2010/11/03, at 15:21, Ryosuke Niwa wrote: Hi Yasuko, Somehow your example isn't working. Could you copy paste the HTML? - Ryosuke On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 3:11 PM, Yasuo Kida k...@apple.com wrote: Thank you Ryosuke. This is a good demo. 5px is only barely legible and I agree it is too small. 6px is legible but not fun to read. 7px looks reasonable lower bound to me. 12pt text with 96dpi would translates to 16px, 50% ruby would be 8px. 10.5pt which is often used by printed books is 14px, 50% ruby would be 7px. I do not think we should make the limit larger than 8px. The larger the ruby size gets the more often you need to put extra gaps in the base text, which makes the base text harder to read. See the example. - kida On 2010/11/03, at 14:01, David Hyatt wrote: Yeah, that demo makes me think maybe 9px is fine after all. :) dave On Nov 3, 2010, at 3:56 PM, Ryosuke Niwa wrote: I think 5px is way too small. Maybe 7 or 8 at least but even those are really hard to read in high-resolution displays. See demo. - Ryosuke On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 12:47 PM, David Hyatt hy...@apple.com wrote: That document also states: When the size of base characters is very small (for e.g. smaller than seven points), ruby which is half the size, will be even more small and illegible. In such cases where the size of base characters is very small, ruby is not a suitable method of annotation. In those cases, consider other annotation methods such as adding the reading in parenthesis immediately after the base character. It also sounds like we need to special case Ruby elements and allow their font sizes to go down to about 5px instead of 9px. Anything lower, and you're getting to the point where ruby was unsuitable (according to the text above) anyway, since the base text was so small. I filed: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=48942 dave (hy...@apple.com) On Nov 3, 2010, at 2:29 PM, Yasuo Kida wrote: In printing the standard is 50% of the base text. For larger point sizes like headings,
Re: [webkit-dev] Size Of Ruby Text?
Right. It is partly because webkit currently does not use glyphs that are designed for ruby. I would not worry this too much as with 14px many kanjis are only barely legible in anyway without the context. The lower bound for ruby can be 8px for base 16px = 12pt in 96dpi. I am reluctant to raise it to 9 px. It would be more important to keep the 50% ratio until we hit the threshold to avoid too many white spaces between base characters. - kida On 2010/11/03, at 15:49, Ryosuke Niwa wrote: Yes that works. With anything below 9px, it's really hard to differentiate 濁音 (ばびぶべぼ) 半濁音 (ぱぴぷぺぼ). - Ryosuke 2010/11/3 Yasuo Kida k...@apple.com Does this work? http://plexode.com/eval3/#ht=%3Cdiv%20style%3D%22font-size%3A16px%3B%22%3E%0A16px-8px%3A%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E国%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20style%3D%22font-size%3A8px%3B%22%3Eくに%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3Eの%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E象徴%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20style%3D%22font-size%3A8px%3B%22%3Eしょうちょう%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3E%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E鬼門%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20style%3D%22font-size%3A8px%3B%22%3Eきもん%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3Eの%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E方角%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20style%3D%22font-size%3A8px%3B%22%3Eほうがく%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3Eを%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E凝視%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20%20style%3D%22font-size%3A8px%3B%22%3Eぎょうし%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3Eする。%3Cbr%3E%0A16px-9px%3A%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E国%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20style%3D%22font-size%3A9px%3B%22%3Eくに%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3Eの%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E象徴%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20style%3D%22font-size%3A9px%3B%22%3Eしょうちょう%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3E%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E鬼門%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20style%3D%22font-size%3A9px%3B%22%3Eきもん%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3Eの%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E方角%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20style%3D%22font-size%3A9px%3B%22%3Eほうがく%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3Eを%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E凝視%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20%20style%3D%22font-size%3A9px%3B%22%3Eぎょうし%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3Eする。%3Cbr%3E%3Cbr%3E%0A%3C%2Fdiv%3E%0A%0A%3Cdiv%20style%3D%22font-size%3A14px%3B%22%3E%0A14px-7px%3A%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E国%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20style%3D%22font-size%3A7px%3B%22%3Eくに%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3Eの%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E象徴%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20style%3D%22font-size%3A7px%3B%22%3Eしょうちょう%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3E%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E鬼門%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20style%3D%22font-size%3A7px%3B%22%3Eきもん%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3Eの%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E方角%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20style%3D%22font-size%3A7px%3B%22%3Eほうがく%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3Eを%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E凝視%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20%20style%3D%22font-size%3A7px%3B%22%3Eぎょうし%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3Eする。%3Cbr%3E%0A14px-9px%3A%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E国%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20style%3D%22font-size%3A8px%3B%22%3Eくに%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3Eの%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E象徴%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20style%3D%22font-size%3A8px%3B%22%3Eしょうちょう%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3E%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E鬼門%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20style%3D%22font-size%3A8px%3B%22%3Eきもん%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3Eの%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E方角%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20style%3D%22font-size%3A8px%3B%22%3Eほうがく%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3Eを%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E凝視%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20%20style%3D%22font-size%3A8px%3B%22%3Eぎょうし%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3Eする。%3Cbr%3E%0A%3C%2Fdiv%3E%0Aohh=1ohj=1jt=ojh=1ojj=1ms=100oth=0otj=0cex=1 According to Choice of Size for Ruby Characters in Requirements for Japanese Text Layout: (note 2) When the size of base characters is very small (for e.g. smaller than seven points), ruby which is half the size, will be even more small and illegible. In such cases where the size of base characters is very small, ruby is not a suitable method of annotation. In those cases, consider other annotation methods such as adding the reading in parenthesis immediately after the base character. - kida On 2010/11/03, at 15:21, Ryosuke Niwa wrote: Hi Yasuko, Somehow your example isn't working. Could you copy paste the HTML? - Ryosuke On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 3:11 PM, Yasuo Kida k...@apple.com wrote: Thank you Ryosuke. This is a good demo. 5px is only barely legible and I agree it is too small. 6px is legible but not fun to read. 7px looks reasonable lower bound to me. 12pt text with 96dpi would translates to 16px, 50% ruby would be 8px. 10.5pt which is often used by printed books is 14px, 50% ruby would be 7px. I do not think we should make the limit larger than 8px. The larger the ruby size gets the more often you need to put extra gaps in the base text, which makes the base text harder to read. See the example. - kida On 2010/11/03, at 14:01, David Hyatt wrote: Yeah, that demo makes me think maybe 9px is fine after all. :) dave On Nov 3, 2010, at 3:56 PM, Ryosuke Niwa wrote: I think 5px is way too small. Maybe 7 or 8 at least but even those are really hard to read in high-resolution displays. See demo. - Ryosuke On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 12:47 PM, David Hyatt hy...@apple.com wrote: That document also states: When the size of base characters is very small (for e.g. smaller than seven points), ruby which is half the size, will be even more small and illegible. In such cases where the size of base characters is very small, ruby is not a suitable
