Thank you Ryosuke. This is a good demo. 5px is only barely legible and I agree it is too small. 6px is legible but not fun to read. 7px looks reasonable lower bound to me.
12pt text with 96dpi would translates to 16px, 50% ruby would be 8px. 10.5pt which is often used by printed books is 14px, 50% ruby would be 7px. I do not think we should make the limit larger than 8px. The larger the ruby size gets the more often you need to put extra gaps in the base text, which makes the base text harder to read. See the example. - kida On 2010/11/03, at 14:01, David Hyatt wrote: > Yeah, that demo makes me think maybe 9px is fine after all. :) > > dave > > On Nov 3, 2010, at 3:56 PM, Ryosuke Niwa wrote: > >> I think 5px is way too small. Maybe 7 or 8 at least but even those are >> really hard to read in high-resolution displays. See demo. >> >> - Ryosuke >> >> On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 12:47 PM, David Hyatt <hy...@apple.com> wrote: >> That document also states: >> >> "When the size of base characters is very small (for e.g. smaller than seven >> points), ruby which is half the size, will be even more small and illegible. >> In such cases where the size of base characters is very small, ruby is not a >> suitable method of annotation. In those cases, consider other annotation >> methods such as adding the reading in parenthesis immediately after the base >> character. >> >> It also sounds like we need to special case Ruby elements and allow their >> font sizes to go down to about 5px instead of 9px. Anything lower, and >> you're getting to the point where ruby was unsuitable (according to the text >> above) anyway, since the base text was so small. >> >> I filed: >> >> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=48942 >> >> dave >> (hy...@apple.com) >> >> On Nov 3, 2010, at 2:29 PM, Yasuo Kida wrote: >> >>> In printing the standard is 50% of the base text. For larger point sizes >>> like headings, the size of ruby is often smaller than 50%. >>> >>> http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/NOTE-jlreq-20090604/#en-subheading2_3_3 >>> >>> So, how about we default to 50% and see how they come out. Glyphs designed >>> for ruby are optimized for those small point sizes. It is possible on some >>> screen resolutions we might want to make it a bit bigger but as screen >>> resolution gets higher I think it makes more sense to stick to 50% >>> following the standard in printing. >>> >>> - kida >>> >>> On 2010/11/03, at 12:05, Eric Mader wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> On Nov 3, 2010, at 8:56 AM, David Hyatt wrote: >>>> >>>>> WebKit enforces a minimum font size of 9px when no explicit font size is >>>>> specified. This means that the font for <rt> cannot fall below 9px if it >>>>> is relative to the user agent default. It may be that we want to >>>>> consider modifying this minimum for ruby text and allow it to go below >>>>> 9px though. I'm not sure. >>>> >>>> Yes, that's probably what I'm seeing. I'm using default font size, which >>>> is probably 12pt. >>>> >>>>> If you make a really big Ruby (e.g., <ruby style="font-size:96px"> and >>>>> then modify the font-size percentage on the <rt>, you should be able to >>>>> see it take effect. >>>>> >>>>> We should probably just study real-world Japanese examples to see how >>>>> small Ruby typically is allowed to get. If it can go below 9px and still >>>>> be readable, we should perhaps consider allowing that. >>>> >>>> I'm sure the detailed spec. addresses this issue. I'll review it. >>>> >>>>> In terms of excluding Ruby text from the overall line height, I don't >>>>> think the font-size of the <rt> is particularly relevant. You just want >>>>> to hack the Ruby to turn the ruby text into overflow rather than having >>>>> it be part of the overall height of the inline-block. >>>> >>>> Of course. The website I was using has the line height set too tight for >>>> correct display this way, and I just wanted to try a smaller size to see >>>> if it looked better. OTOH, that site loads a style sheet that overrides >>>> the ruby text font-size to 6pt, so I can't easily override it, and its' >>>> probably displaying as 9pt anyhow. >>>> >>>>> dave >>>>> (hy...@apple.com) >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Eric >>>> >>>>> On Nov 3, 2010, at 1:20 PM, Eric Mader wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi, >>>>>> >>>>>> As part of my work on ruby text enhancements, I'm implementing the >>>>>> option of not counting the height of the ruby text in the overall line >>>>>> height. As part of this, I wanted to play with changing the size of the >>>>>> ruby text. I'm trying to do this by changing the following lines in >>>>>> <WebKit>/WebCore/css/html.css: >>>>>> >>>>>> ruby > rt { >>>>>> display: block; >>>>>> font-size: 60%; /* make slightly larger than 50% for better >>>>>> readability */ >>>>>> text-align: center; >>>>>> text-decoration: none; >>>>>> } >>>>>> >>>>>> However, when I change the font-size: attribute to, say, 50%, I don't >>>>>> see any difference in the size of the ruby text. (I even tried 25% just >>>>>> to be sure). Is this value being set somewhere else? >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> Eric Mader >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> webkit-dev mailing list >>>>>> webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org >>>>>> http://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/webkit-dev >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> webkit-dev mailing list >>>> webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org >>>> http://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/webkit-dev >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> webkit-dev mailing list >>> webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org >>> http://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/webkit-dev >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> webkit-dev mailing list >> webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org >> http://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/webkit-dev >> >> >
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