Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fwd: [Wikimediauk-l] visual Editor is now worth using in outreach editathons

2015-08-09 Thread Andy Mabbett 
On 30 July 2015 at 15:36, Arnau Duran  wrote:

> especially for older (+40) people

What like Jimmy Wales, Tim Berners-Lee and Vint Cerf?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fwd: [Wikimediauk-l] visual Editor is now worth using in outreach editathons

2015-07-30 Thread Sam Klein 
Strongly seconded.

This makes copyedits and typo correction - the first step of editing - 15
seconds rather than 150.
(It could be much faster still if the edit summary process weren't so
elaborate :)  just let anyone doubleclick to edit a single word, and
autosave it as a minor edit without asking...)

The joy of seeing citations autocomplete is immediate and lasting.

In my experience, the main problem with using VE for everything is still
the inability to sign talk page comments!  That's very confusing even for
me when I have to switch b/t editors.

SJ
(helping run another editathon for chemists at the upcoming American
Chemical Society's 250th anniversary :)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Meetup/Boston/American_Chemical_Society_Wikipedia_Edit-a-thon:_Notable_Chemists_and_Chemistry

On Thu, Jul 30, 2015 at 8:00 AM, David Gerard  wrote:

> -- Forwarded message --
> From: WereSpielChequers 
> Date: 30 July 2015 at 12:57
> Subject: [Wikimediauk-l] visual Editor is now worth using in outreach
> editathons
> To:
>
>
> If anyone is still running outreach editathons to try and recruit new
> editors, you might want to consider using visual editor. I spoke to
> some of the WMF people at Wikimania and apparently the issue of it
> running very very slowly on old kit has recently been largely
> addressed. I've pointed out in the past that as long as that bug was a
> "won't fix" you couldn't promote Visual Editor at outreach editathons
> because even if all the laptops look pretty new, there could well be
> someone present using a borrowed laptop and intending to use an old PC
> at home. Since we really can't start an editathon asking the attendees
> if they all use new computers at home, and then reverting to the
> classic editor if someone says their machine was bought in 2010 I and
> several others have been ignoring the Visual Editor for the last
> couple of years.
>
> I have just run a quick test on this myself using a friend's old PC
> and V/E does now work, though it is still a little slower than the
> classic editor.
>
> Regards
>
> Jonathan / WereSpielChequers
>
>
> ___
> Wikimedia UK mailing list
> wikimediau...@wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
> WMUK: https://wikimedia.org.uk
>
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-- 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fwd: [Wikimediauk-l] visual Editor is now worth using in outreach editathons

2015-07-30 Thread Benoît Evellin 
Hello

Same experience in France: workshops/editathons are VE oriented, because VE
is easier to grasp. We also introduce wikitext, but without details. We
have experienced withshops with only wikitext or both technologies, but
they were less successful than VE-only workshops (people are afraid of
code/syntax and the more you say it is easy, the more they doubt of it :)).

Benoît Evellin
Wikimédia France volunteer
Rennes' local group
www.wikimedia.fr/rennes

2015-07-30 16:36 GMT+02:00 Arnau Duran :

> We (in Amical) always try to teach editing using the visual editor, it's
> much easier for newbies, especially for older (+40) people or non-techies.
> Obviously we also mention "that other tab which leads to some weird code"
> but we almost never dig into it, it's not necessary for them to know
> wikicode in order to successfully contribute to wikipedia. Everything is
> easier with VE.
>
> *Arnau Duran Ferrero*
> www.arnauduran.net
>
> [image: Facebook]  [image: Twitter]
>  [image: LinkedIn]
> 
>
> 2015-07-30 15:51 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen :
>
> > Hoi,
> > was happy to learn that we made progress. Now I learn that there is
> always
> > another rationalisation why "it is not good enough for me and for
> newbies".
> >
> > I am past the phase of "it is not good enough for me" and I stopped
> editing
> > Wikipedia.  Just a thought to reconsider assumptions.
> > Thanks,
> >   GerardM
> >
> > On 30 July 2015 at 15:09, Andy Mabbett 
> wrote:
> >
> > > [copy of my reply on the original list]
> > >
> > > I've considered it; and decided not to.
> > >
> > > For one thing, when a new user sees a diff, either via a link on a
> > > talk page, an article's history, a user's contributions, or their own
> > > watchlist they are exposed to Wikicode, and so need a basic
> > > understanding of how it works.
> > >
> > >
> > > On 30 July 2015 at 13:00, David Gerard  wrote:
> > > > -- Forwarded message --
> > > > From: WereSpielChequers 
> > > > Date: 30 July 2015 at 12:57
> > > > Subject: [Wikimediauk-l] visual Editor is now worth using in outreach
> > > editathons
> > > > To:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > If anyone is still running outreach editathons to try and recruit new
> > > > editors, you might want to consider using visual editor. I spoke to
> > > > some of the WMF people at Wikimania and apparently the issue of it
> > > > running very very slowly on old kit has recently been largely
> > > > addressed. I've pointed out in the past that as long as that bug was
> a
> > > > "won't fix" you couldn't promote Visual Editor at outreach editathons
> > > > because even if all the laptops look pretty new, there could well be
> > > > someone present using a borrowed laptop and intending to use an old
> PC
> > > > at home. Since we really can't start an editathon asking the
> attendees
> > > > if they all use new computers at home, and then reverting to the
> > > > classic editor if someone says their machine was bought in 2010 I and
> > > > several others have been ignoring the Visual Editor for the last
> > > > couple of years.
> > > >
> > > > I have just run a quick test on this myself using a friend's old PC
> > > > and V/E does now work, though it is still a little slower than the
> > > > classic editor.
> > > >
> > > > Regards
> > > >
> > > > Jonathan / WereSpielChequers
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ___
> > > > Wikimedia UK mailing list
> > > > wikimediau...@wikimedia.org
> > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
> > > > WMUK: https://wikimedia.org.uk
> > > >
> > > > ___
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> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > 
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Andy Mabbett
> > > @pigsonthewing
> > > http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
> > >
> > > ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fwd: [Wikimediauk-l] visual Editor is now worth using in outreach editathons

2015-07-30 Thread Arnau Duran 
We (in Amical) always try to teach editing using the visual editor, it's
much easier for newbies, especially for older (+40) people or non-techies.
Obviously we also mention "that other tab which leads to some weird code"
but we almost never dig into it, it's not necessary for them to know
wikicode in order to successfully contribute to wikipedia. Everything is
easier with VE.

*Arnau Duran Ferrero*
www.arnauduran.net

[image: Facebook]  [image: Twitter]
 [image: LinkedIn]


2015-07-30 15:51 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen :

> Hoi,
> was happy to learn that we made progress. Now I learn that there is always
> another rationalisation why "it is not good enough for me and for newbies".
>
> I am past the phase of "it is not good enough for me" and I stopped editing
> Wikipedia.  Just a thought to reconsider assumptions.
> Thanks,
>   GerardM
>
> On 30 July 2015 at 15:09, Andy Mabbett  wrote:
>
> > [copy of my reply on the original list]
> >
> > I've considered it; and decided not to.
> >
> > For one thing, when a new user sees a diff, either via a link on a
> > talk page, an article's history, a user's contributions, or their own
> > watchlist they are exposed to Wikicode, and so need a basic
> > understanding of how it works.
> >
> >
> > On 30 July 2015 at 13:00, David Gerard  wrote:
> > > -- Forwarded message --
> > > From: WereSpielChequers 
> > > Date: 30 July 2015 at 12:57
> > > Subject: [Wikimediauk-l] visual Editor is now worth using in outreach
> > editathons
> > > To:
> > >
> > >
> > > If anyone is still running outreach editathons to try and recruit new
> > > editors, you might want to consider using visual editor. I spoke to
> > > some of the WMF people at Wikimania and apparently the issue of it
> > > running very very slowly on old kit has recently been largely
> > > addressed. I've pointed out in the past that as long as that bug was a
> > > "won't fix" you couldn't promote Visual Editor at outreach editathons
> > > because even if all the laptops look pretty new, there could well be
> > > someone present using a borrowed laptop and intending to use an old PC
> > > at home. Since we really can't start an editathon asking the attendees
> > > if they all use new computers at home, and then reverting to the
> > > classic editor if someone says their machine was bought in 2010 I and
> > > several others have been ignoring the Visual Editor for the last
> > > couple of years.
> > >
> > > I have just run a quick test on this myself using a friend's old PC
> > > and V/E does now work, though it is still a little slower than the
> > > classic editor.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > > Jonathan / WereSpielChequers
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia UK mailing list
> > > wikimediau...@wikimedia.org
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
> > > WMUK: https://wikimedia.org.uk
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Andy Mabbett
> > @pigsonthewing
> > http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
> >
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> >
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fwd: [Wikimediauk-l] visual Editor is now worth using in outreach editathons

2015-07-30 Thread Amir E. Aharoni 
> Yes, I recall a blog post explaining bidirectional and mixed-script
> issues, and that basically VE would have to become the first
> mixed-script editor to be any good at all at handling this stuff :-)
> So, how usable is it for you mixing up RTL and LTR?

Until summer 2013 it was totally unusable in right-to-left languages. In
left-to-right languages it was very buggy, but usable.

These days it's totally usable in right-to-left. Very roughly, the average
is about 250 edits out of 2500 in the main space every day. (Did I say that
these are super-rough numbers? Maybe Moriel or James have something better.)

There are some bugs in RTL support, but they are all minor. Largely, it's
as usable now as in left-to-right.


--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
‪“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬

2015-07-30 16:48 GMT+03:00 David Gerard :

> On 30 July 2015 at 14:43, Amir E. Aharoni 
> wrote:
>
> > I've been doing this in Israel for a while already. (In Hebrew! From
> right
> > to left! Thanks to User:Mooeypoo [cced], she is awesome!)
> > It's pretty successful.
>
>
>
> Yes, I recall a blog post explaining bidirectional and mixed-script
> issues, and that basically VE would have to become the first
> mixed-script editor to be any good at all at handling this stuff :-)
> So, how usable is it for you mixing up RTL and LTR?
>
>
> - d.
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fwd: [Wikimediauk-l] visual Editor is now worth using in outreach editathons

2015-07-30 Thread Gerard Meijssen 
Hoi,
was happy to learn that we made progress. Now I learn that there is always
another rationalisation why "it is not good enough for me and for newbies".

I am past the phase of "it is not good enough for me" and I stopped editing
Wikipedia.  Just a thought to reconsider assumptions.
Thanks,
  GerardM

On 30 July 2015 at 15:09, Andy Mabbett  wrote:

> [copy of my reply on the original list]
>
> I've considered it; and decided not to.
>
> For one thing, when a new user sees a diff, either via a link on a
> talk page, an article's history, a user's contributions, or their own
> watchlist they are exposed to Wikicode, and so need a basic
> understanding of how it works.
>
>
> On 30 July 2015 at 13:00, David Gerard  wrote:
> > -- Forwarded message --
> > From: WereSpielChequers 
> > Date: 30 July 2015 at 12:57
> > Subject: [Wikimediauk-l] visual Editor is now worth using in outreach
> editathons
> > To:
> >
> >
> > If anyone is still running outreach editathons to try and recruit new
> > editors, you might want to consider using visual editor. I spoke to
> > some of the WMF people at Wikimania and apparently the issue of it
> > running very very slowly on old kit has recently been largely
> > addressed. I've pointed out in the past that as long as that bug was a
> > "won't fix" you couldn't promote Visual Editor at outreach editathons
> > because even if all the laptops look pretty new, there could well be
> > someone present using a borrowed laptop and intending to use an old PC
> > at home. Since we really can't start an editathon asking the attendees
> > if they all use new computers at home, and then reverting to the
> > classic editor if someone says their machine was bought in 2010 I and
> > several others have been ignoring the Visual Editor for the last
> > couple of years.
> >
> > I have just run a quick test on this myself using a friend's old PC
> > and V/E does now work, though it is still a little slower than the
> > classic editor.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Jonathan / WereSpielChequers
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Wikimedia UK mailing list
> > wikimediau...@wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
> > WMUK: https://wikimedia.org.uk
> >
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>
>
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
> ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fwd: [Wikimediauk-l] visual Editor is now worth using in outreach editathons

2015-07-30 Thread David Gerard 
On 30 July 2015 at 14:43, Amir E. Aharoni  wrote:

> I've been doing this in Israel for a while already. (In Hebrew! From right
> to left! Thanks to User:Mooeypoo [cced], she is awesome!)
> It's pretty successful.



Yes, I recall a blog post explaining bidirectional and mixed-script
issues, and that basically VE would have to become the first
mixed-script editor to be any good at all at handling this stuff :-)
So, how usable is it for you mixing up RTL and LTR?


- d.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fwd: [Wikimediauk-l] visual Editor is now worth using in outreach editathons

2015-07-30 Thread Amir E. Aharoni 
I've been doing this in Israel for a while already. (In Hebrew! From right
to left! Thanks to User:Mooeypoo [cced], she is awesome!)

It's pretty successful.

Basic formatting, headings, and citations are far, far easier to explain
using VE.

I do *mention* the source editor, because it's inevitable for understanding
talk pages and diffs, but I dedicate far less time to it than I did at
workshops three years ago. This leaves more time to do actual article
writing. Some people actually stay as editors afterwards (sorry, I don't
have a precise number).

I'm doing this every three or four months or so, and it's amazing to see
the progress and the bug-fixing. A year ago writing an image description
was broken in Hebrew - now it works. A year ago it was impossible to add
tables - now it's not just possible, but easy. A year ago it was weird to
add footnotes - now it's much nicer; not perfect, but already better than
explaining  tags (for a lot of newbies seeing ANY tags at all is an
immediate showstopper that renders the whole workshop useless). Using VE in
workshops is also great for finding and reporting useful bugs - looking at
new users always is.

Wikimedia Israel also uses VE for most of the training materials that it
produces in the last year or so.


--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
‪“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬

2015-07-30 15:00 GMT+03:00 David Gerard :

> -- Forwarded message --
> From: WereSpielChequers 
> Date: 30 July 2015 at 12:57
> Subject: [Wikimediauk-l] visual Editor is now worth using in outreach
> editathons
> To:
>
>
> If anyone is still running outreach editathons to try and recruit new
> editors, you might want to consider using visual editor. I spoke to
> some of the WMF people at Wikimania and apparently the issue of it
> running very very slowly on old kit has recently been largely
> addressed. I've pointed out in the past that as long as that bug was a
> "won't fix" you couldn't promote Visual Editor at outreach editathons
> because even if all the laptops look pretty new, there could well be
> someone present using a borrowed laptop and intending to use an old PC
> at home. Since we really can't start an editathon asking the attendees
> if they all use new computers at home, and then reverting to the
> classic editor if someone says their machine was bought in 2010 I and
> several others have been ignoring the Visual Editor for the last
> couple of years.
>
> I have just run a quick test on this myself using a friend's old PC
> and V/E does now work, though it is still a little slower than the
> classic editor.
>
> Regards
>
> Jonathan / WereSpielChequers
>
>
> ___
> Wikimedia UK mailing list
> wikimediau...@wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
> WMUK: https://wikimedia.org.uk
>
> ___
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> 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fwd: [Wikimediauk-l] visual Editor is now worth using in outreach editathons

2015-07-30 Thread Andy Mabbett 
[copy of my reply on the original list]

I've considered it; and decided not to.

For one thing, when a new user sees a diff, either via a link on a
talk page, an article's history, a user's contributions, or their own
watchlist they are exposed to Wikicode, and so need a basic
understanding of how it works.


On 30 July 2015 at 13:00, David Gerard  wrote:
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: WereSpielChequers 
> Date: 30 July 2015 at 12:57
> Subject: [Wikimediauk-l] visual Editor is now worth using in outreach 
> editathons
> To:
>
>
> If anyone is still running outreach editathons to try and recruit new
> editors, you might want to consider using visual editor. I spoke to
> some of the WMF people at Wikimania and apparently the issue of it
> running very very slowly on old kit has recently been largely
> addressed. I've pointed out in the past that as long as that bug was a
> "won't fix" you couldn't promote Visual Editor at outreach editathons
> because even if all the laptops look pretty new, there could well be
> someone present using a borrowed laptop and intending to use an old PC
> at home. Since we really can't start an editathon asking the attendees
> if they all use new computers at home, and then reverting to the
> classic editor if someone says their machine was bought in 2010 I and
> several others have been ignoring the Visual Editor for the last
> couple of years.
>
> I have just run a quick test on this myself using a friend's old PC
> and V/E does now work, though it is still a little slower than the
> classic editor.
>
> Regards
>
> Jonathan / WereSpielChequers
>
>
> ___
> Wikimedia UK mailing list
> wikimediau...@wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
> WMUK: https://wikimedia.org.uk
>
> ___
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> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
> 



-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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[Wikimedia-l] Fwd: [Wikimediauk-l] visual Editor is now worth using in outreach editathons

2015-07-30 Thread David Gerard 
-- Forwarded message --
From: WereSpielChequers 
Date: 30 July 2015 at 12:57
Subject: [Wikimediauk-l] visual Editor is now worth using in outreach editathons
To:


If anyone is still running outreach editathons to try and recruit new
editors, you might want to consider using visual editor. I spoke to
some of the WMF people at Wikimania and apparently the issue of it
running very very slowly on old kit has recently been largely
addressed. I've pointed out in the past that as long as that bug was a
"won't fix" you couldn't promote Visual Editor at outreach editathons
because even if all the laptops look pretty new, there could well be
someone present using a borrowed laptop and intending to use an old PC
at home. Since we really can't start an editathon asking the attendees
if they all use new computers at home, and then reverting to the
classic editor if someone says their machine was bought in 2010 I and
several others have been ignoring the Visual Editor for the last
couple of years.

I have just run a quick test on this myself using a friend's old PC
and V/E does now work, though it is still a little slower than the
classic editor.

Regards

Jonathan / WereSpielChequers


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