Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] The story of great Indian WMF outsourcing, few blind people and an elephant

[Dhaval S. Vyas]

Hi Gerard,

I hope you had noticed the subject of this email at least before you pushed
the "play" button of your wikidata tape.

I urge you to PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE stick to the topic of discussion, if has
no time to read the email he/she can easily get the topic from looking at
the subject, and not start irrelevant emails with wikidata's development.

If you have anything to say on Ravi's topic in straightforward way, please
do so.

Hi Ravi,

I echo your feelings regarding India being treated as a ground to
experiment. I hope from the discussions we had a couple of years ago on IP,
EduWiki program and recent ones on CIS-A2K would pass this message to WMF
that their experiments in "too big, too diverse, too different" country are
failures and they may decide to utilise the "drop from their ocean"
elsewhere in more productive way for which donors have contributed to the
movement's fund.

Dhaval
On 30 Apr 2014 13:01, "Gerard Meijssen"  wrote:

> Hoi,
> I am a Wikimedian and have been for a very long time. Check my record and
> you will find that I have always been involved in both language support and
> projects like Wiktionary, OmegaWiki, Wikidata, Reasonator.
>
> Today new functionality has gone life on Wikidata that was expected for
> over half a year. Because of this the Marwari language is now supported in
> Wikidata. I blogged about this [1]. Other languages will follow soon. This
> policy was discussed with people from India in the past and they saw it as
> an appropriate strategy to start building information resources in a
> language prior to a Wikipedia or another WMF project.
>
> India is big and it is foolish to forget context and not seek support and
> second opinions when people in India are likely to benefit directly. On the
> other hand, you can bring a horse to water, you cannot make it drink. When
> I blogged about an enhancement to the search functionality on the Telugu
> Wikipedia [2], it should be obvious that added value will only be found
> when people add labels in Telugu to Wikidata. It is gratifying that labels
> have been added. This is not an experiment as traffic details from the
> Tamil and Persian Wikipedia indicate it as a successful strategy.
>
> I am not involved in Indian politics. Obviously. I am however improving
> information about the current members of the Lok Sabha. I  added that Mr
> Modi is the incumbent prime minister of Gujarati state in Wikidata. I have
> blogged about one member of the Lok Sabha and I am likely to do so again.
> My objective is to get labels in all the languages of India for all of them
> and I will not be the one doing that. My hope is that information is
> readily available on Indian politics and its politicians.
>
> What we will gain out of it is a better understanding on how such projects
> work. A much bigger challenge are the elections of South Africa. What we
> may gain out of it is that Wikidata becomes a platform where this type of
> information is available. Much of the information in Wikidata finds its
> origin in Wikipedia. It is because of the hard work in the English
> Wikipedia that we are able to add information. The point however is that
> information can become available in every other language. That is not an
> experiment, it is a fact.
> Thanks,
>  GerardM
>
>
> [1]
> http://ultimategerardm.blogspot.nl/2014/04/wikidata-marwari-language-from-india.html
> [2]
> http://ultimategerardm.blogspot.nl/2014/04/wikipedia-search-for-in-telugu.html
>
>
> On 30 April 2014 10:00, Ravishankar  wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> As I engaged in the discussion regarding CIS grant proposal for the last
>> two weeks, I had this recurring theme echoed from various corners.
>>
>> "India is big. India is diverse. India is unlike other countries. So,
>> experiments (call it innovation) need to be done".
>>
>> For the love of Wiki God, may I request all the global people  to stop
>> experiementing with India?
>>
>> *People from outside have no clue of India. And the people they hire in
>> India have no clue of the Wikimedia movement. *
>>
>> Ultimately, it has become like few blind people describing an elephant.
>>
>> Heck, all the community members know it is an elephant and know it takes
>> time to grow an elephant. The growth of an elephant can only be on par with
>> the ecosystem within which it is present.
>>
>> No amount of systematic intervention is going to change a donkey into an
>> elephant.
>>
>> I am tired of seeing experiments being done in naive and tiny Indic
>> communities and the "lessons learnt" being implemented in Brazil, Egypt and
>> Arab world. Be it Google or be it WMF or its avatars.
>>
>> May I request that you do your experiments elsewhere for a change and
>> implement things that work for sure in India organically?
>>
>> The reason why English Wikipedia community flourishes in India, Tamil /
>> Bengali / Malayalam communities do well relatively are complete socio
>> economic and political. No amount of intervention is going to chan

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] A campaign for stopping donations to Wikimedia

[Ravishankar]

Kevin,

// I just wanted to speak up when I saw someone with advanced permissions
on multiple projects actively suggest an action that, if successful, would
not be good, and even if not successful, won't be good.//

My criticism is not different from what Sue Gardner, WMF Executive director
says here:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/10/08/wikipedia_foundation_money_in_wrong_place/

I am speaking on behalf of the community that edits, the people who donate.
The community is getting demotivated and the donor money is getting wasted.
And my personal interest is to stop that.





*What is CIS's personal interest?The more bloated the grant, the more money
they get through 10% institutional development fee which they can spend
anwyay they want.*
*Higher the salary, the current employees of CIS can pay their bank loans. *

Huh, organizations down size, resize, fire employees all the time.

If CIS-A2K employees are worthy of what they are getting paid, they should
have no problem finding a better job.

Or, if they are at least 1/10th committed to the movement, they should be
able to work under normal salaries too.

If this is too much hassle, I welcome all the employees to quit and serve
the movement as volunteers instead of giving sermons for us.

// I would highly encourage people to focus efforts in productive
directions,//

This is like asking to plant a tree in your house and stop worrying about
the polluting factory nearby. A typical middle class third world sermon.

Nevertheless, we are all active community volunteers. So, please be assured
that we are all doing positive work. Only issue is that the double
standards followed by WMF is demotivating the community heavily.

//and a lot of their knowledge about what went wrong, including what
mistakes they may've made,//

Bloated salaries are a mistake. Fix it now. Programs with low impact and
high cost are drafted to justify the existance of current jobs. Fix it now.

//If this were truly just about profligate spending, there's probably a
hundred things in the Wikimedia movement you could latch on to that are
more outrageous.//

Asking to let a small mistake go because there are bigger mistakes is the
root cause of all corruption and inefficiency.

Ravi
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposed Wiki Data Marathon program by CIS-A2K

[Srikanth Ramakrishnan]

Volunteers are equally dedicated, if not more, than paid employees.
I've known people who have traveled long distances at their own expense to
hold workshopa and other events.
Rarely have I seen a paid employee work with the same efficiency.
On May 1, 2014 1:40 AM, "Gerard Meijssen"  wrote:

> Hoi,
> I am saying neither. When I describe the efforts by the paid staff of the
> Dutch chapter, I find that they are really dedicated and deal with complex
> issues where many people and organisations are involved. It takes a deep
> understanding and availability in time and is very much supportive of what
> the volunteers do.
>
> This does not detract from the volunteers one bit, they are in fact
> supported by the efforts from the Dutch chapter. The efforts by the paid
> staff is very much concentrated on the things that the volunteers do not
> take up. Consequently things get done and, that is what counts.
>
> The volunteers are very dedicated in the things they do. The Dutch
> volunteers brought you "Wiki loves monuments" for instance :)
> Thanks,
>  GerardM
>
>
> On 30 April 2014 21:53, Karthik Nadar  wrote:
>
>> Hi Gerard,
>>
>>
>>> "/ It takes a full time effort of very dedicated people."
>>
>>
>> I understand two points from this: 1. Either you say that the volunteer
>> community here is not dedicated?? 2. Or either the paid community is not
>> dedicated.
>>
>> Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I'm, that's because you are going
>> off-topic.
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Karthik Nadar.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 2:30 PM, Gerard Meijssen <
>> gerard.meijs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Ravi,
>>> When I observe the activities of the Dutch chapter I find that they take
>>> up things that volunteers are not able to.  They are things that are often
>>> complex and take a large network. What the Dutch chapter does for GLAM is
>>> much more than reaching out to individual GLAM institutions. It takes a
>>> full time effort of very dedicated people.
>>>
>>> Your assumption that it is about building a better Wikipedia indicates
>>> to me how limited your notion is about what it takes to "share in the sum
>>> of all knowledge".
>>>
>>> I do not know CIS enough to categorically state that they are in the
>>> same league. What I have seen is however encouraging. What I do know and I
>>> said it before, the challenges to bring the sum of all knowledge to India
>>> is overwhelming. The biggest challenge apparently is people.
>>> Thanks,
>>>   GerardM
>>>
>>>
>>> On 30 April 2014 10:02, Ravishankar  wrote:
>>>
 Vishnu,

 Volunteers come and volunteers go. That is the nature of the movement.

 Do you propose to build a better Wikipedia with paid staff?

 Please try.

 Ravi

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>
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] A campaign for stopping donations to Wikimedia

[Kevin Gorman]

Hi Karthik -

I'll step back from the conversation after this, but did want to say that
although I haven't been active in many discussions on this list, I've read
almost every conversation on every public list related to the Wikimedia
movement's activities in India for the last several years, as well as those
private lists which I have access to, so I'm not coming in completely out
of the blue (including a lot of the discussions and frustrations around the
catalyst program and how it was split off.)  I'm not actively trying to
support CIS's practices, or say they should get their entire grant - I
haven't evaluated it on anywhere near an adequate basis to have an opinion
on it (I'm thoroughly obsessive about evaluating grants.) I do think it's
significant that they indicated an active desire to fix them over time
while not being unfair to their current employees - WMDC's most recent
grant brought up some questions about how Wikimedia movement affiliates
should be treating employees, and I think it will probably be necessary to
come up with movement wide standards at some point, where CIS may present
valuable guidance of a slightly different sort.

I understand where Ravi's frustrations are coming from (and I'm pretty sure
I've spoken more with WMIN members in my movement work than people
affiliated with CIS,) I just wanted to speak up when I saw someone with
advanced permissions on multiple projects actively suggest an action that,
if successful, would not be good, and even if not successful, won't be
good.  I would highly encourage people to focus efforts in productive
directions, like improving local fundraising ability, or in participating
on some of the meta-movement discussions that are happening right now about
the FDC and its future, how we should expect movement affiliate employees
to be treated, etc.  (Although I also can't blame anyone who feels a need
to step back out of frustration; the direction of Ravi's email just
concerned me.)  I think it would even probably to do detailed post-mortems
as has started for the Belfer WiR posting to ensure that lessons learned
from past mistakes are not repeated (it's worth noting that many of those
involved in splitting off the catalyst programs have left the Foundation,
and a lot of their knowledge about what went wrong, including what mistakes
they may've made, may have left with them without being recorded.)

Best,
Kevin Gorman


On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 12:24 PM, Karthik Nadar wrote:

> When its about the Indian Community, I would further appreciate if
> community members from India write in here. There seems to be more to
> foreign members defending CIS-A2K grant while it should be more of Indian
> community either defending or chasing.
>
> I think Gerard needs to understand the Indian Community from depth; not
> keep on defending CIS-A2K just because you were supposed to run a project
> with them. The volunteer community here can also do that. We have well
> versed Wikidata contributors. Please see how the volunteer activities have
> dropped down so tremendously since past two years.
>
> Everyone's comment on the discussion is appreciated; doesn't matters in
> support or in contrast againsy the FDC proposal of CIS-A2K. But, seriously
> and on first basis, it should be coming from Indian community members not
> from anyone who doesn't understand the current scenario here. General
> comments from anyone is welcome, but please do some home-work first.
>
>
> Hi Ravi,
>
> I'm sure campaigning against donations to Wikimedia will bring the
> movement in bad light; but something like campaigning for Wikimedia India
> and deteriorating its dependency on WMF will be awesome. Wikimedia India
> currently needs some legal help to initiate after which we believe
> that this is something needs to be achieved with strong support from the
> community.
>
> WMF has already decided that it wants to create more and more mess here.
> I'm sure to see that the CIS-A2K will get almost 100% for what they have
> requested for [maybe more :P]. Things are all scripted and discussions are
> mere drama. Creation of such a project is itself a great proof for that.
>
> Another example is: When first employee of WMIN was hired, WMF created
> such a mess out of it. When A2K was started, WMIN had to no chance to voice
> out for or against it.
>
>
>
> Please note:  I don't have any personal intentions against CIS. They have
> been so open and helpful to WMIN. Its the WMF attitude towards its focus in
> India that creates trouble and mess. Thanks to Them!
>
>
>
> Thanks,
> Karthik Nadar.
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 10:21 PM, Kevin Gorman  wrote:
>
>> I would equally suggest that trying to cut off or limit the flow of funds
>> to the movement because you're upset that someone is being overpaid is
>> putting your personal interest above the movement's interest. I mean, if
>> you were literally successful in your stated goal, the movement would no
>> longer *exist*.  I'm sure the FDC will tak

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposed Wiki Data Marathon program by CIS-A2K

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
I am saying neither. When I describe the efforts by the paid staff of the
Dutch chapter, I find that they are really dedicated and deal with complex
issues where many people and organisations are involved. It takes a deep
understanding and availability in time and is very much supportive of what
the volunteers do.

This does not detract from the volunteers one bit, they are in fact
supported by the efforts from the Dutch chapter. The efforts by the paid
staff is very much concentrated on the things that the volunteers do not
take up. Consequently things get done and, that is what counts.

The volunteers are very dedicated in the things they do. The Dutch
volunteers brought you "Wiki loves monuments" for instance :)
Thanks,
 GerardM


On 30 April 2014 21:53, Karthik Nadar  wrote:

> Hi Gerard,
>
>
>> "/ It takes a full time effort of very dedicated people."
>
>
> I understand two points from this: 1. Either you say that the volunteer
> community here is not dedicated?? 2. Or either the paid community is not
> dedicated.
>
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I'm, that's because you are going
> off-topic.
>
>
> Regards,
> Karthik Nadar.
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 2:30 PM, Gerard Meijssen <
> gerard.meijs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Ravi,
>> When I observe the activities of the Dutch chapter I find that they take
>> up things that volunteers are not able to.  They are things that are often
>> complex and take a large network. What the Dutch chapter does for GLAM is
>> much more than reaching out to individual GLAM institutions. It takes a
>> full time effort of very dedicated people.
>>
>> Your assumption that it is about building a better Wikipedia indicates to
>> me how limited your notion is about what it takes to "share in the sum of
>> all knowledge".
>>
>> I do not know CIS enough to categorically state that they are in the same
>> league. What I have seen is however encouraging. What I do know and I said
>> it before, the challenges to bring the sum of all knowledge to India is
>> overwhelming. The biggest challenge apparently is people.
>> Thanks,
>>   GerardM
>>
>>
>> On 30 April 2014 10:02, Ravishankar  wrote:
>>
>>> Vishnu,
>>>
>>> Volunteers come and volunteers go. That is the nature of the movement.
>>>
>>> Do you propose to build a better Wikipedia with paid staff?
>>>
>>> Please try.
>>>
>>> Ravi
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposed Wiki Data Marathon program by CIS-A2K

[Karthik Nadar]

Hi Gerard,


> "/ It takes a full time effort of very dedicated people."


I understand two points from this: 1. Either you say that the volunteer
community here is not dedicated?? 2. Or either the paid community is not
dedicated.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I'm, that's because you are going
off-topic.


Regards,
Karthik Nadar.


On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 2:30 PM, Gerard Meijssen
wrote:

> Ravi,
> When I observe the activities of the Dutch chapter I find that they take
> up things that volunteers are not able to.  They are things that are often
> complex and take a large network. What the Dutch chapter does for GLAM is
> much more than reaching out to individual GLAM institutions. It takes a
> full time effort of very dedicated people.
>
> Your assumption that it is about building a better Wikipedia indicates to
> me how limited your notion is about what it takes to "share in the sum of
> all knowledge".
>
> I do not know CIS enough to categorically state that they are in the same
> league. What I have seen is however encouraging. What I do know and I said
> it before, the challenges to bring the sum of all knowledge to India is
> overwhelming. The biggest challenge apparently is people.
> Thanks,
>   GerardM
>
>
> On 30 April 2014 10:02, Ravishankar  wrote:
>
>> Vishnu,
>>
>> Volunteers come and volunteers go. That is the nature of the movement.
>>
>> Do you propose to build a better Wikipedia with paid staff?
>>
>> Please try.
>>
>> Ravi
>>
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>>
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] A campaign for stopping donations to Wikimedia

[Karthik Nadar]

When its about the Indian Community, I would further appreciate if
community members from India write in here. There seems to be more to
foreign members defending CIS-A2K grant while it should be more of Indian
community either defending or chasing.

I think Gerard needs to understand the Indian Community from depth; not
keep on defending CIS-A2K just because you were supposed to run a project
with them. The volunteer community here can also do that. We have well
versed Wikidata contributors. Please see how the volunteer activities have
dropped down so tremendously since past two years.

Everyone's comment on the discussion is appreciated; doesn't matters in
support or in contrast againsy the FDC proposal of CIS-A2K. But, seriously
and on first basis, it should be coming from Indian community members not
from anyone who doesn't understand the current scenario here. General
comments from anyone is welcome, but please do some home-work first.


Hi Ravi,

I'm sure campaigning against donations to Wikimedia will bring the movement
in bad light; but something like campaigning for Wikimedia India and
deteriorating its dependency on WMF will be awesome. Wikimedia India
currently needs some legal help to initiate after which we believe
that this is something needs to be achieved with strong support from the
community.

WMF has already decided that it wants to create more and more mess here.
I'm sure to see that the CIS-A2K will get almost 100% for what they have
requested for [maybe more :P]. Things are all scripted and discussions are
mere drama. Creation of such a project is itself a great proof for that.

Another example is: When first employee of WMIN was hired, WMF created such
a mess out of it. When A2K was started, WMIN had to no chance to voice out
for or against it.



Please note:  I don't have any personal intentions against CIS. They have
been so open and helpful to WMIN. Its the WMF attitude towards its focus in
India that creates trouble and mess. Thanks to Them!



Thanks,
Karthik Nadar.


On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 10:21 PM, Kevin Gorman  wrote:

> I would equally suggest that trying to cut off or limit the flow of funds
> to the movement because you're upset that someone is being overpaid is
> putting your personal interest above the movement's interest. I mean, if
> you were literally successful in your stated goal, the movement would no
> longer *exist*.  I'm sure the FDC will take relevant factors in to
> consideration when looking at CIS's request, there's no need for hyperbolic
> calls to start a donation boycott.  If this were truly just about
> profligate spending, there's probably a hundred things in the Wikimedia
> movement you could latch on to that are more outrageous.
>
> ---
> Kevin Gorman
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 8:57 AM, Ravishankar  wrote:
>
>> Kevin,
>>
>> It isn't about the exact numbers and percentages. It is about integrity.
>>
>> You accept that you are getting over paid and yet you won't fix it, then
>> it is putting your personal interest above the movement's interest.
>>
>> You call yourself a non-proft and yet you pay a salary that is far above
>> for-proft standards.
>>
>> And when we ask for results or performance analysis, you say that we
>> can't measure that yet.
>>
>> CIS acknowledges that it is over paying its 
>> staffdisproportionate
>>  to industry standards and their own institution's salary
>> structure. Yet, 51.26% of their 
>> budgetgoes
>>  to payments towards full time staff, resource persons and consultants
>> (line items 1, 7 and 11.2). This is against the guidelines issued to the
>> FDCon
>>  rising cost of institutionalization.
>>
>> This inflated structure is a mistake created by WMF and it should own the
>> responsibility of fixing it.
>>
>> Just because movement funds are available in plenty, you don't go around
>> wasting it.
>>
>> Ravi
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] WMF-FDC and A2K discussion minutes

[Hari Prasad Nadig]

Nitika,

This seems to be coming in just too late. And the timing does seem to be
questionable.

Regards,


On 30 April 2014 15:21, Nitika Tandon  wrote:

> Dear All,
>
> CIS-A2K had a two day meeting with WMF & FDC visiting team in its
> Bangalore office on 11th & 12th Feb 2014. The main agenda of the meeting
> was:
>
>- Understanding current state of A2K -- basic facts (finance snapshot,
>organizational context within CIS)
>- Financial review of CIS-A2K, per grant agreement
>- Reflection on past year - successes and challenges in activities
>- Reflection on past year - spending vs. plan
>- Discussion of the preparation for funding via the FDC process; Q&A
>- Reflection on relationship with various communities - successes;
>obstacles; gaps
>- Discussion of A2K's current resources: staff, funds, engaged
>volunteers; discuss actual plans; discuss path according to roadmap
>
> Meeting minutes can be found here.[1]
>
> Thanks
> Nitika
>
>
> [1]
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1O7MkN-h1lQC9oRLwX51Q2wusqBCR19e3i6jI6IWockw/edit?usp=sharing
>
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-- 
Hari Prasad Nadig
http://hpnadig.net
http://twitter.com/hpnadig
http://flickr.com/hpnadig
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] A campaign for stopping donations to Wikimedia

[Kevin Gorman]

I would equally suggest that trying to cut off or limit the flow of funds
to the movement because you're upset that someone is being overpaid is
putting your personal interest above the movement's interest. I mean, if
you were literally successful in your stated goal, the movement would no
longer *exist*.  I'm sure the FDC will take relevant factors in to
consideration when looking at CIS's request, there's no need for hyperbolic
calls to start a donation boycott.  If this were truly just about
profligate spending, there's probably a hundred things in the Wikimedia
movement you could latch on to that are more outrageous.

---
Kevin Gorman


On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 8:57 AM, Ravishankar  wrote:

> Kevin,
>
> It isn't about the exact numbers and percentages. It is about integrity.
>
> You accept that you are getting over paid and yet you won't fix it, then
> it is putting your personal interest above the movement's interest.
>
> You call yourself a non-proft and yet you pay a salary that is far above
> for-proft standards.
>
> And when we ask for results or performance analysis, you say that we can't
> measure that yet.
>
> CIS acknowledges that it is over paying its 
> staffdisproportionate
>  to industry standards and their own institution's salary
> structure. Yet, 51.26% of their 
> budgetgoes
>  to payments towards full time staff, resource persons and consultants
> (line items 1, 7 and 11.2). This is against the guidelines issued to the
> FDCon
>  rising cost of institutionalization.
>
> This inflated structure is a mistake created by WMF and it should own the
> responsibility of fixing it.
>
> Just because movement funds are available in plenty, you don't go around
> wasting it.
>
> Ravi
>
>
>
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] A campaign for stopping donations to Wikimedia

[Ravishankar]

Kevin,

It isn't about the exact numbers and percentages. It is about integrity.

You accept that you are getting over paid and yet you won't fix it, then it
is putting your personal interest above the movement's interest.

You call yourself a non-proft and yet you pay a salary that is far above
for-proft standards.

And when we ask for results or performance analysis, you say that we can't
measure that yet.

CIS acknowledges that it is over paying its
staffdisproportionate
to industry standards and their own institution's salary
structure. Yet, 51.26% of their
budgetgoes
to payments towards full time staff, resource persons and consultants
(line items 1, 7 and 11.2). This is against the guidelines issued to
the 
FDCon
rising cost of institutionalization.

This inflated structure is a mistake created by WMF and it should own the
responsibility of fixing it.

Just because movement funds are available in plenty, you don't go around
wasting it.

Ravi
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] A campaign for stopping donations to Wikimedia

[Kevin Gorman]

Like Gerard, I'm quite confused at the purpose of trying to get people to
stop donating to the Wikimedia Foundation, and am a bit disappointed to see
such a suggestion coming from someone who holds advanced rights on some of
the projects. I also note that the response of CIS-A2K's executive director
notes that if it is determined there is a problem in terms of their salary
structure, it is one he wants to address, even if it may take some time to
do so because he (reasonably, imo) doesn't want to cut the salaries of
current employees steeply.  Looking at the table, it looks like CIS-A2K's
total staff budget is a little shy of $300k a year.  The FDC is currently
handing out what, $6m USD a year?  Even if CIS was entirely funded out of
the FDC (and it isn't, their APG request is for less than $300k,) that's
pretty much a drop in the bucket of available funds.

It's been made clear that just because CIS may be awarded funds doesn't
mean that WMIN won't also be awarded funds, and that the entities aren't in
direct competition with each other.  Trying to do something like get people
to boycott donating to the WMF because CIS is asking for a fraction of a
percent of WMF's total budget and something like 5% of available FDC funds
to be given to them is pointless if you don't succeed and shooting yourself
in the foot if you do succeed.  If you were partially successful, your own
funding in future years would likely be diminished due to less overall
availability of funds, and if you were fully successful... well, Wikipedia
wouldn't exist.

Best,
Kevin Gorman


On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 1:50 AM, Gerard Meijssen
wrote:

> Hoi,
> What is unclear in the response of Asaf that there is no relation between
> the money received by CIS and the Indian chapter? There is no rupee less
> available to India when either CIS or the Indian chapter gets less money.
> When you spoil it for CIS, you spoil it for India.
>
> When the Indian chapter finds it in itself to cooperate with CIS, the
> likelyhood is that it will inherit its programs and budget at the end of
> its run. With your campaign to stop asking people to donate to the WMF, you
> spoil it for both. It is NOT a zero sum game and you have everything to
> lose. This is a great way to lose everything..
>
> Ravi what is your motivation, how do you gain?
> Thanks,
>   GerardM
>
>
> On 30 April 2014 10:07, Ravishankar  wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> CIS-A2K has officially stated that it won't fix their erratic salary
>> structure.
>>
>>
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2013-2014_round2/The_Centre_for_Internet_and_Society/Proposal_form#Reply_about_salary_structure
>>
>> Why should Wikimedia donors pay for the mistakes of the WMF?
>>
>> I am thinking if we should start campaigning asking people not to donate
>> to WMF citing wasteful expenditures like these.
>>
>> Please point if any such campaign already exists.
>>
>> Ravi
>>
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>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
>>
>>
>
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] A campaign for stopping donations to Wikimedia

[Ravishankar]

Gerard,

Thanks for the carrots, sticks and snake oil.

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2013-2014_round2/The_Centre_for_Internet_and_Society/Proposal_form#Long-term_organisational_plans.3F

makes it clear that CIS-A2K is not going to exit anytime soon and they will
compete.

Even competition is fine. But compete on level playing grounds.

I trust WMIN will grow based on it's stengths and not based on false hopes.

We also have communities that keep growing without major institutional
support.

End of CIS-A2K is not the end of Wikimedia in India.

Ravi
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] The story of great Indian WMF outsourcing, few blind people and an elephant

[Ravishankar]

Gerard,

I know you from the days of

http://ultimategerardm.blogspot.in/2011/11/freely-licensed-fonts-are-ugly-now-what.html

May I request you to stop hijacking mail threads and conduct your WikiData
sermons elsewhere?

Ravi
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] The story of great Indian WMF outsourcing, few blind people and an elephant

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
I am a Wikimedian and have been for a very long time. Check my record and
you will find that I have always been involved in both language support and
projects like Wiktionary, OmegaWiki, Wikidata, Reasonator.

Today new functionality has gone life on Wikidata that was expected for
over half a year. Because of this the Marwari language is now supported in
Wikidata. I blogged about this [1]. Other languages will follow soon. This
policy was discussed with people from India in the past and they saw it as
an appropriate strategy to start building information resources in a
language prior to a Wikipedia or another WMF project.

India is big and it is foolish to forget context and not seek support and
second opinions when people in India are likely to benefit directly. On the
other hand, you can bring a horse to water, you cannot make it drink. When
I blogged about an enhancement to the search functionality on the Telugu
Wikipedia [2], it should be obvious that added value will only be found
when people add labels in Telugu to Wikidata. It is gratifying that labels
have been added. This is not an experiment as traffic details from the
Tamil and Persian Wikipedia indicate it as a successful strategy.

I am not involved in Indian politics. Obviously. I am however improving
information about the current members of the Lok Sabha. I  added that Mr
Modi is the incumbent prime minister of Gujarati state in Wikidata. I have
blogged about one member of the Lok Sabha and I am likely to do so again.
My objective is to get labels in all the languages of India for all of them
and I will not be the one doing that. My hope is that information is
readily available on Indian politics and its politicians.

What we will gain out of it is a better understanding on how such projects
work. A much bigger challenge are the elections of South Africa. What we
may gain out of it is that Wikidata becomes a platform where this type of
information is available. Much of the information in Wikidata finds its
origin in Wikipedia. It is because of the hard work in the English
Wikipedia that we are able to add information. The point however is that
information can become available in every other language. That is not an
experiment, it is a fact.
Thanks,
 GerardM


[1]
http://ultimategerardm.blogspot.nl/2014/04/wikidata-marwari-language-from-india.html
[2]
http://ultimategerardm.blogspot.nl/2014/04/wikipedia-search-for-in-telugu.html


On 30 April 2014 10:00, Ravishankar  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> As I engaged in the discussion regarding CIS grant proposal for the last
> two weeks, I had this recurring theme echoed from various corners.
>
> "India is big. India is diverse. India is unlike other countries. So,
> experiments (call it innovation) need to be done".
>
> For the love of Wiki God, may I request all the global people  to stop
> experiementing with India?
>
> *People from outside have no clue of India. And the people they hire in
> India have no clue of the Wikimedia movement. *
>
> Ultimately, it has become like few blind people describing an elephant.
>
> Heck, all the community members know it is an elephant and know it takes
> time to grow an elephant. The growth of an elephant can only be on par with
> the ecosystem within which it is present.
>
> No amount of systematic intervention is going to change a donkey into an
> elephant.
>
> I am tired of seeing experiments being done in naive and tiny Indic
> communities and the "lessons learnt" being implemented in Brazil, Egypt and
> Arab world. Be it Google or be it WMF or its avatars.
>
> May I request that you do your experiments elsewhere for a change and
> implement things that work for sure in India organically?
>
> The reason why English Wikipedia community flourishes in India, Tamil /
> Bengali / Malayalam communities do well relatively are complete socio
> economic and political. No amount of intervention is going to change this
> in other parts of the country. This is like providing rice bags to the poor
> of the third world without fixing their primary socio political issues.
>
> Wikipedia doesn't exist in isolation in a web ecosystem. It is the
> culmination of scholarly activity of highest order that you can imagine.
> When languages that are official languages of states and countries, have
> two decades long web presence, have a thriving local print / visual media
> and academic network have a problem growing their Wikipedias, I can't
> understand what the h*ll is being done in Wikipedias that are not even out
> of incubators, Wikipedias that don't even have a writing system in order.
>
> Few years back Google dumped paid translated articles done with the aid
> machine translation tools in many Indic language communities and sermoned
> us that these will bring us a community. Now, WMF's programs are sermoning
> us that their attempt at seeding communities will bring articles for us. I
> am 100% sure that both approaches are futile.
>
> I really miss the once thriving Indian

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] WMF-FDC and A2K discussion minutes

[Subhashish Panigrahi]

Hi everyone,

This is also available on Meta at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/India_Access_To_Knowledge/Meetings/Minutes_of_Meeting_between_CIS,_WMF_%26_FDC 
.


Thanks,
Subha

On 30/04/14 3:21 pm, Nitika Tandon wrote:

Dear All,

CIS-A2K had a two day meeting with WMF & FDC visiting team in its 
Bangalore office on 11th & 12th Feb 2014. The main agenda of the 
meeting was:


  * Understanding current state of A2K -- basic facts (finance
snapshot, organizational context within CIS)
  * Financial review of CIS-A2K, per grant agreement
  * Reflection on past year - successes and challenges in activities
  * Reflection on past year - spending vs. plan
  * Discussion of the preparation for funding via the FDC process; Q&A
  * Reflection on relationship with various communities - successes;
obstacles; gaps
  * Discussion of A2K's current resources: staff, funds, engaged
volunteers; discuss actual plans; discuss path according to roadmap

Meeting minutes can be found here.[1]

Thanks
Nitika


[1] 
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1O7MkN-h1lQC9oRLwX51Q2wusqBCR19e3i6jI6IWockw/edit?usp=sharing



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--
Subhashish Panigrahi
Programme Officer, Access To Knowledge
Centre for Internet and Society
http://cis-india.org
@psubhashish

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[Wikimediaindia-l] WMF-FDC and A2K discussion minutes

[Nitika Tandon]

Dear All,

CIS-A2K had a two day meeting with WMF & FDC visiting team in its Bangalore 
office on 11th & 12th Feb 2014. The main agenda of the meeting was:
Understanding current state of A2K -- basic facts (finance snapshot, 
organizational context within CIS)
Financial review of CIS-A2K, per grant agreement
Reflection on past year - successes and challenges in activities
Reflection on past year - spending vs. plan
Discussion of the preparation for funding via the FDC process; Q&A
Reflection on relationship with various communities - successes; obstacles; gaps
Discussion of A2K's current resources: staff, funds, engaged volunteers; 
discuss actual plans; discuss path according to roadmap
Meeting minutes can be found here.[1]

Thanks
Nitika


[1] 
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1O7MkN-h1lQC9oRLwX51Q2wusqBCR19e3i6jI6IWockw/edit?usp=sharing___
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposed Wiki Data Marathon program by CIS-A2K

[Gerard Meijssen]

Ravi,
When I observe the activities of the Dutch chapter I find that they take up
things that volunteers are not able to.  They are things that are often
complex and take a large network. What the Dutch chapter does for GLAM is
much more than reaching out to individual GLAM institutions. It takes a
full time effort of very dedicated people.

Your assumption that it is about building a better Wikipedia indicates to
me how limited your notion is about what it takes to "share in the sum of
all knowledge".

I do not know CIS enough to categorically state that they are in the same
league. What I have seen is however encouraging. What I do know and I said
it before, the challenges to bring the sum of all knowledge to India is
overwhelming. The biggest challenge apparently is people.
Thanks,
  GerardM


On 30 April 2014 10:02, Ravishankar  wrote:

> Vishnu,
>
> Volunteers come and volunteers go. That is the nature of the movement.
>
> Do you propose to build a better Wikipedia with paid staff?
>
> Please try.
>
> Ravi
>
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] A campaign for stopping donations to Wikimedia

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
What is unclear in the response of Asaf that there is no relation between
the money received by CIS and the Indian chapter? There is no rupee less
available to India when either CIS or the Indian chapter gets less money.
When you spoil it for CIS, you spoil it for India.

When the Indian chapter finds it in itself to cooperate with CIS, the
likelyhood is that it will inherit its programs and budget at the end of
its run. With your campaign to stop asking people to donate to the WMF, you
spoil it for both. It is NOT a zero sum game and you have everything to
lose. This is a great way to lose everything..

Ravi what is your motivation, how do you gain?
Thanks,
  GerardM


On 30 April 2014 10:07, Ravishankar  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> CIS-A2K has officially stated that it won't fix their erratic salary
> structure.
>
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2013-2014_round2/The_Centre_for_Internet_and_Society/Proposal_form#Reply_about_salary_structure
>
> Why should Wikimedia donors pay for the mistakes of the WMF?
>
> I am thinking if we should start campaigning asking people not to donate
> to WMF citing wasteful expenditures like these.
>
> Please point if any such campaign already exists.
>
> Ravi
>
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>
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[Wikimediaindia-l] A campaign for stopping donations to Wikimedia

[Ravishankar]

Hi,

CIS-A2K has officially stated that it won't fix their erratic salary
structure.

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2013-2014_round2/The_Centre_for_Internet_and_Society/Proposal_form#Reply_about_salary_structure

Why should Wikimedia donors pay for the mistakes of the WMF?

I am thinking if we should start campaigning asking people not to donate to
WMF citing wasteful expenditures like these.

Please point if any such campaign already exists.

Ravi
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposed Wiki Data Marathon program by CIS-A2K

[Ravishankar]

Vishnu,

Volunteers come and volunteers go. That is the nature of the movement.

Do you propose to build a better Wikipedia with paid staff?

Please try.

Ravi
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[Wikimediaindia-l] The story of great Indian WMF outsourcing, few blind people and an elephant

[Ravishankar]

Hi,

As I engaged in the discussion regarding CIS grant proposal for the last
two weeks, I had this recurring theme echoed from various corners.

"India is big. India is diverse. India is unlike other countries. So,
experiments (call it innovation) need to be done".

For the love of Wiki God, may I request all the global people  to stop
experiementing with India?

*People from outside have no clue of India. And the people they hire in
India have no clue of the Wikimedia movement. *

Ultimately, it has become like few blind people describing an elephant.

Heck, all the community members know it is an elephant and know it takes
time to grow an elephant. The growth of an elephant can only be on par with
the ecosystem within which it is present.

No amount of systematic intervention is going to change a donkey into an
elephant.

I am tired of seeing experiments being done in naive and tiny Indic
communities and the "lessons learnt" being implemented in Brazil, Egypt and
Arab world. Be it Google or be it WMF or its avatars.

May I request that you do your experiments elsewhere for a change and
implement things that work for sure in India organically?

The reason why English Wikipedia community flourishes in India, Tamil /
Bengali / Malayalam communities do well relatively are complete socio
economic and political. No amount of intervention is going to change this
in other parts of the country. This is like providing rice bags to the poor
of the third world without fixing their primary socio political issues.

Wikipedia doesn't exist in isolation in a web ecosystem. It is the
culmination of scholarly activity of highest order that you can imagine.
When languages that are official languages of states and countries, have
two decades long web presence, have a thriving local print / visual media
and academic network have a problem growing their Wikipedias, I can't
understand what the h*ll is being done in Wikipedias that are not even out
of incubators, Wikipedias that don't even have a writing system in order.

Few years back Google dumped paid translated articles done with the aid
machine translation tools in many Indic language communities and sermoned
us that these will bring us a community. Now, WMF's programs are sermoning
us that their attempt at seeding communities will bring articles for us. I
am 100% sure that both approaches are futile.

I really miss the once thriving Indian Wiki community that organized the
world's biggest Wiki conference.

I really miss the cross-wiki activism like

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:PEG/Tinucherian_and_Shijualex/Wiki_Community_development_in_India_and_newsletter/Report

I really miss the spirit of the Wiki community getting replaced by
confusions brought because of top-down paid interventions.

The only hope I have is that at least few mature communities will take
stock of the situation, stay autonomous and self-sustaining as they were
and continue to enjoy the pleasure of Wiki activity instead of getting
drowned in numbers, goals, targets and dream targets.

Ravi
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposed Wiki Data Marathon program by CIS-A2K

[Vishnu]

Dear Ravi,

On Wednesday 30 April 2014 01:12 PM, Ravishankar wrote:
But, when an unusually high amount is spent on a resource person 
through CIS-A2K, I can't help point out the double standards followed 
for similar programs planned by WMIN.


Please check

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:PEG/Tinucherian_and_Shijualex/Wiki_Community_development_in_India_and_newsletter/Report

a similar pan India outreach program done by two volunteers for 
roughly 13% of this whole Wiki Data Marathon program.


With due respect to what has been done... I don't think this takes into 
account the salary component and if it is only travel expenses then 
after 3 years the proposed travel budget is comparable. I could not but 
notice this in the report // Going forward we will not be able to 
contribute actively in these community building efforts due to our 
current personal and professional priorities.// which requires some 
introspection.


Cheers,
Vishnu

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposed Wiki Data Marathon program by CIS-A2K

[Ravishankar]

Hi Vishnu,

Thanks for identifying the resource person and providing the rationale for
inviting him.

Hoi Gerard,

When I was discussing about a fundamental issue of WMF intervention in
India spoiling community dynamics, you came out of nowhere and questioned
my bias.

Then you went on giving sermons about the need for Wikidata marathon
program which is completely off-topic.

Then, isn't it only appropriate I question what is your bias :) Why should
not I think that you are lobbying for CIS?

As a fellow Wikimedia volunteer, I appreciate your commitment and passion
for the work you do in projects like TranslateWiki and Wiki Data.

I will be glad to welcome you to India if your travel program is assisted
by Individual engagement grant or a travel and participation grant straight
from WMF.

But, when an unusually high amount is spent on a resource person through
CIS-A2K, I can't help point out the double standards followed for similar
programs planned by WMIN.

Please check

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:PEG/Tinucherian_and_Shijualex/Wiki_Community_development_in_India_and_newsletter/Report

a similar pan India outreach program done by two volunteers for roughly 13%
of this whole Wiki Data Marathon program.

Ravi
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Last day for giving comments on CIS-A2K's grant request

[Ravishankar]

Hi,

I welcome the community to place its concluding remarks at

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2013-2014_round2/The_Centre_for_Internet_and_Society/Proposal_form#Concluding_remarks_from_the_community

Ravi
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[Wikimediaindia-l] Revitalising the Wikimedia India chapter

[zada zadti]

Being a silent listner on the list for quite some time.
There are some points Asaf and WMF staff are not talking about.

When it comes to funding the chapter in any way, all kinds of questions are
raised. So much so that the chapter staff member left the organisation. At
the same time, A2K and the previous organisation/mechanism has huge money
without any accountability or publically given targets and its completions.
In simple terms, there is no transperency in this(A2K) regards from WMF.

Both chapter and A2K share the same pool of volunteers. chapter people are
purely volunteers and A2K people are paid staff.

Comparing other chapters -with WMIN- like WMUK or Netherland chapter etc.
for funding mechanism is wrong as WMIN is possibly not even allowed to
become part of global fundraiser.

If any "volunteer" wants to work for some project, there are two simple
options- either to reach to WMIN who apprantly have no funds and will be
asked all kinds of questions by WMF OR reachout to A2K who have absolutely
no restrictions on funding any project and no further hassles also. So, if
Gerard or any "volunteer" can answer where to join for a project, you will
always get a simple and obviously biased (from the facts mentioned above)
answer.

If ultimately eveything is coming to money matters, a team of some 10
people handling 10 milion INR compared to begging to WMF by chapter speaks
out loud and clear.

If WMF wants to see both the organisations working to wards their
objectives, they should not have this kind of discrimination.

I am sorry if I am talking something wrong. Please correct me wherever
needed. All that I have said is after reading the pages for grant requests
and further discussions and A2K reports and future plans and ofcourse this
mail thread.

-ZZ
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