Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] A campaign for stopping donations to Wikimedia
It is interesting to see that not a single concerned person from WMF is commenting in this thread. WMF has a new ED now. Lets take this opportunity to raise the issues from India to her directly before the WMF staff does her formatting !! Lets flood her mail box zZ On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 1:37 PM, Ravishankar ravidre...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, CIS-A2K has officially stated that it won't fix their erratic salary structure. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2013-2014_round2/The_Centre_for_Internet_and_Society/Proposal_form#Reply_about_salary_structure Why should Wikimedia donors pay for the mistakes of the WMF? I am thinking if we should start campaigning asking people not to donate to WMF citing wasteful expenditures like these. Please point if any such campaign already exists. Ravi ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] A campaign for stopping donations to Wikimedia
Hi, Do you not think that it would be better to ask that donations be used to only fund certain aspects of the movement - for eg to power the servers etc. than to ask for a blanket ban on such donations? Your comments are focused on one aspect of the movement which as Wikimedians we should be able to sort out through dialogue. I know how frustrating this can be - especially being volunteers with other things that demand our time and attention. Losing your cool and venting your frustration achieves little and it puts off other people from contributing to these discussions. I believe this is an important discussion to have for us as a community. By the nature of the Internet, we go beyond physical geographies. I hope we do not restrict this down to one nation. Warm regards, Pradeep On Wednesday, 30 April 2014, Ravishankar ravidre...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, CIS-A2K has officially stated that it won't fix their erratic salary structure. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2013-2014_round2/The_Centre_for_Internet_and_Society/Proposal_form#Reply_about_salary_structure Why should Wikimedia donors pay for the mistakes of the WMF? I am thinking if we should start campaigning asking people not to donate to WMF citing wasteful expenditures like these. Please point if any such campaign already exists. Ravi -- Sent from Gmail Mobile for iPhone ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] A campaign for stopping donations to Wikimedia
On May 1, 2014 6:32 PM, arun vm arunweb...@gmail.com wrote: Why not wikimeedia cant grow without forighn funds. Its foreign fund until you see yourself alienated from the movement. You see it as community fund if you feel you are part of the movement. I see that Ravi and others are worried that funding from WMF is not producing or will not produce adequate results when given in opaque manner to NGO , which gives out minutes of meeting after 2 and half months . The supposedly not for profit NGO is giving its justification for having people on pay roll with disproportionately high salaries . Lets wait for FDC. Jumping into conclusions or sweeping statements won't help any one . Almost all technichal platforms are developed+code is gnu licenced And all most all contents in web is licenced under creative commons licence. and in india we have 110 millions of population.So many indians are trained in global standards. I thinks this is a time to think a complete indian wiki. What do you want to do in a complete Indian Wikipedia ? Write about India ! ? Wikipedia as I know is a global movement. Please don't allow petty interests to be in way of movements . This is what i felt that's all. cheers. On 4/30/14, Kevin Gorman kgor...@gmail.com wrote: I would equally suggest that trying to cut off or limit the flow of funds to the movement because you're upset that someone is being overpaid is putting your personal interest above the movement's interest. I mean, if you were literally successful in your stated goal, the movement would no longer *exist*. I'm sure the FDC will take relevant factors in to consideration when looking at CIS's request, there's no need for hyperbolic calls to start a donation boycott. If this were truly just about profligate spending, there's probably a hundred things in the Wikimedia movement you could latch on to that are more outrageous. --- Kevin Gorman On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 8:57 AM, Ravishankar ravidre...@gmail.com wrote: Kevin, It isn't about the exact numbers and percentages. It is about integrity. You accept that you are getting over paid and yet you won't fix it, then it is putting your personal interest above the movement's interest. You call yourself a non-proft and yet you pay a salary that is far above for-proft standards. And when we ask for results or performance analysis, you say that we can't measure that yet. CIS acknowledges that it is over paying its staff https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2013-2014_round2/The_Centre_for_Internet_and_Society/Proposal_form#Q19 disproportionate to industry standards and their own institution's salary structure. Yet, 51.26% of their budget https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/India_Access_To_Knowledge/Draft_Work_plan_July_2014_-_June_2015/Budget#Budget_as_per_Expenditure_Heads goes to payments towards full time staff, resource persons and consultants (line items 1, 7 and 11.2). This is against the guidelines issued to the FDC http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Minutes/2013-04-18#Guidance_for_the_FDC on rising cost of institutionalization. This inflated structure is a mistake created by WMF and it should own the responsibility of fixing it. Just because movement funds are available in plenty, you don't go around wasting it. Ravi ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] A campaign for stopping donations to Wikimedia
On May 1, 2014 6:32 PM, arun vm arunweb...@gmail.com wrote: HOme work?. I hate it from my school days :) I just want to tell a story about anna hasare that movement is completly based on online acttivitys such peopels are all from india and kejariwalls AAP is completly based on online activitys Being wrong with grammar is absolutely fine . But please take care to mention names properly. Are you peopels are able to accept india is already matured in the case of online activity?. Now think why there is no peopels in WIKI apart from some south indians?. What do you want to say here? On 5/1/14, Kevin Gorman kgor...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Karthik - I'll step back from the conversation after this, but did want to say that although I haven't been active in many discussions on this list, I've read almost every conversation on every public list related to the Wikimedia movement's activities in India for the last several years, as well as those private lists which I have access to, so I'm not coming in completely out of the blue (including a lot of the discussions and frustrations around the catalyst program and how it was split off.) I'm not actively trying to support CIS's practices, or say they should get their entire grant - I haven't evaluated it on anywhere near an adequate basis to have an opinion on it (I'm thoroughly obsessive about evaluating grants.) I do think it's significant that they indicated an active desire to fix them over time while not being unfair to their current employees - WMDC's most recent grant brought up some questions about how Wikimedia movement affiliates should be treating employees, and I think it will probably be necessary to come up with movement wide standards at some point, where CIS may present valuable guidance of a slightly different sort. I understand where Ravi's frustrations are coming from (and I'm pretty sure I've spoken more with WMIN members in my movement work than people affiliated with CIS,) I just wanted to speak up when I saw someone with advanced permissions on multiple projects actively suggest an action that, if successful, would not be good, and even if not successful, won't be good. I would highly encourage people to focus efforts in productive directions, like improving local fundraising ability, or in participating on some of the meta-movement discussions that are happening right now about the FDC and its future, how we should expect movement affiliate employees to be treated, etc. (Although I also can't blame anyone who feels a need to step back out of frustration; the direction of Ravi's email just concerned me.) I think it would even probably to do detailed post-mortems as has started for the Belfer WiR posting to ensure that lessons learned from past mistakes are not repeated (it's worth noting that many of those involved in splitting off the catalyst programs have left the Foundation, and a lot of their knowledge about what went wrong, including what mistakes they may've made, may have left with them without being recorded.) Best, Kevin Gorman On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 12:24 PM, Karthik Nadar karthik...@gmail.comwrote: When its about the Indian Community, I would further appreciate if community members from India write in here. There seems to be more to foreign members defending CIS-A2K grant while it should be more of Indian community either defending or chasing. I think Gerard needs to understand the Indian Community from depth; not keep on defending CIS-A2K just because you were supposed to run a project with them. The volunteer community here can also do that. We have well versed Wikidata contributors. Please see how the volunteer activities have dropped down so tremendously since past two years. Everyone's comment on the discussion is appreciated; doesn't matters in support or in contrast againsy the FDC proposal of CIS-A2K. But, seriously and on first basis, it should be coming from Indian community members not from anyone who doesn't understand the current scenario here. General comments from anyone is welcome, but please do some home-work first. Hi Ravi, I'm sure campaigning against donations to Wikimedia will bring the movement in bad light; but something like campaigning for Wikimedia India and deteriorating its dependency on WMF will be awesome. Wikimedia India currently needs some legal help to initiate after which we believe that this is something needs to be achieved with strong support from the community. WMF has already decided that it wants to create more and more mess here. I'm sure to see that the CIS-A2K will get almost 100% for what they have requested for [maybe more :P]. Things are all scripted and discussions are mere drama. Creation of such a project is itself a great proof for that. Another example is: When first employee of WMIN was hired, WMF
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] A campaign for stopping donations to Wikimedia
Hi Kevin, // Looking at the table, it looks like CIS-A2K's total staff budget is a little shy of $300k a year. The FDC is currently handing out what, $6m USD a year? Even if CIS was entirely funded out of the FDC (and it isn't, their APG request is for less than $300k,) that's pretty much a drop in the bucket of available funds.// Do you suppose that because WMF FDC operate in currency called USD, which has a reasonably high value in Forex market than the currency called INR, in which this grant is going to be utilised, makes it valid to fund in unethical way? I work in a huge company who outsources its work to India and Poland just for the fact that salary structures and costs are quite low in those countries. I can't buy your argument, with all due respect to your experience and knowledge, that because it is insignificant ammount, WMF should not think about unreasonable salaries. If that is the point, when WMIN's grant was reviewed, why was this point forgotten? Or are you advising that at that time WMF did not hand out such huge (6 million USD) a year? Dhaval On 30 Apr 2014 16:36, Kevin Gorman kgor...@gmail.com wrote: Like Gerard, I'm quite confused at the purpose of trying to get people to stop donating to the Wikimedia Foundation, and am a bit disappointed to see such a suggestion coming from someone who holds advanced rights on some of the projects. I also note that the response of CIS-A2K's executive director notes that if it is determined there is a problem in terms of their salary structure, it is one he wants to address, even if it may take some time to do so because he (reasonably, imo) doesn't want to cut the salaries of current employees steeply. Looking at the table, it looks like CIS-A2K's total staff budget is a little shy of $300k a year. The FDC is currently handing out what, $6m USD a year? Even if CIS was entirely funded out of the FDC (and it isn't, their APG request is for less than $300k,) that's pretty much a drop in the bucket of available funds. It's been made clear that just because CIS may be awarded funds doesn't mean that WMIN won't also be awarded funds, and that the entities aren't in direct competition with each other. Trying to do something like get people to boycott donating to the WMF because CIS is asking for a fraction of a percent of WMF's total budget and something like 5% of available FDC funds to be given to them is pointless if you don't succeed and shooting yourself in the foot if you do succeed. If you were partially successful, your own funding in future years would likely be diminished due to less overall availability of funds, and if you were fully successful... well, Wikipedia wouldn't exist. Best, Kevin Gorman On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 1:50 AM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: Hoi, What is unclear in the response of Asaf that there is no relation between the money received by CIS and the Indian chapter? There is no rupee less available to India when either CIS or the Indian chapter gets less money. When you spoil it for CIS, you spoil it for India. When the Indian chapter finds it in itself to cooperate with CIS, the likelyhood is that it will inherit its programs and budget at the end of its run. With your campaign to stop asking people to donate to the WMF, you spoil it for both. It is NOT a zero sum game and you have everything to lose. This is a great way to lose everything.. Ravi what is your motivation, how do you gain? Thanks, GerardM On 30 April 2014 10:07, Ravishankar ravidre...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, CIS-A2K has officially stated that it won't fix their erratic salary structure. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2013-2014_round2/The_Centre_for_Internet_and_Society/Proposal_form#Reply_about_salary_structure Why should Wikimedia donors pay for the mistakes of the WMF? I am thinking if we should start campaigning asking people not to donate to WMF citing wasteful expenditures like these. Please point if any such campaign already exists. Ravi ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] A campaign for stopping donations to Wikimedia
Hi Kevin, You completely took it wrong. The intention was not to stop you, but to get enough people who might be little hesitant to come here and share their words. I would repeat the same that your comments are always welcome. :-) Just to add to more what Dhaval has said and I have indicated the same on the meta discussion page; I would prescribly like to know why the staffs at CIS-A2K are not paid as per Indian standards. You'll never see such a money going out in India at non-profit standards. I will not like to see an example of Reliance or Tata here, as they have sufficient money and resources to back-up everything in worst case situations. Thanks, Karthik Nadar. On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 12:53 PM, Dhaval S. Vyas dsv...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Kevin, // Looking at the table, it looks like CIS-A2K's total staff budget is a little shy of $300k a year. The FDC is currently handing out what, $6m USD a year? Even if CIS was entirely funded out of the FDC (and it isn't, their APG request is for less than $300k,) that's pretty much a drop in the bucket of available funds.// Do you suppose that because WMF FDC operate in currency called USD, which has a reasonably high value in Forex market than the currency called INR, in which this grant is going to be utilised, makes it valid to fund in unethical way? I work in a huge company who outsources its work to India and Poland just for the fact that salary structures and costs are quite low in those countries. I can't buy your argument, with all due respect to your experience and knowledge, that because it is insignificant ammount, WMF should not think about unreasonable salaries. If that is the point, when WMIN's grant was reviewed, why was this point forgotten? Or are you advising that at that time WMF did not hand out such huge (6 million USD) a year? Dhaval On 30 Apr 2014 16:36, Kevin Gorman kgor...@gmail.com wrote: Like Gerard, I'm quite confused at the purpose of trying to get people to stop donating to the Wikimedia Foundation, and am a bit disappointed to see such a suggestion coming from someone who holds advanced rights on some of the projects. I also note that the response of CIS-A2K's executive director notes that if it is determined there is a problem in terms of their salary structure, it is one he wants to address, even if it may take some time to do so because he (reasonably, imo) doesn't want to cut the salaries of current employees steeply. Looking at the table, it looks like CIS-A2K's total staff budget is a little shy of $300k a year. The FDC is currently handing out what, $6m USD a year? Even if CIS was entirely funded out of the FDC (and it isn't, their APG request is for less than $300k,) that's pretty much a drop in the bucket of available funds. It's been made clear that just because CIS may be awarded funds doesn't mean that WMIN won't also be awarded funds, and that the entities aren't in direct competition with each other. Trying to do something like get people to boycott donating to the WMF because CIS is asking for a fraction of a percent of WMF's total budget and something like 5% of available FDC funds to be given to them is pointless if you don't succeed and shooting yourself in the foot if you do succeed. If you were partially successful, your own funding in future years would likely be diminished due to less overall availability of funds, and if you were fully successful... well, Wikipedia wouldn't exist. Best, Kevin Gorman On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 1:50 AM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: Hoi, What is unclear in the response of Asaf that there is no relation between the money received by CIS and the Indian chapter? There is no rupee less available to India when either CIS or the Indian chapter gets less money. When you spoil it for CIS, you spoil it for India. When the Indian chapter finds it in itself to cooperate with CIS, the likelyhood is that it will inherit its programs and budget at the end of its run. With your campaign to stop asking people to donate to the WMF, you spoil it for both. It is NOT a zero sum game and you have everything to lose. This is a great way to lose everything.. Ravi what is your motivation, how do you gain? Thanks, GerardM On 30 April 2014 10:07, Ravishankar ravidre...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, CIS-A2K has officially stated that it won't fix their erratic salary structure. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2013-2014_round2/The_Centre_for_Internet_and_Society/Proposal_form#Reply_about_salary_structure Why should Wikimedia donors pay for the mistakes of the WMF? I am thinking if we should start campaigning asking people not to donate to WMF citing wasteful expenditures like these. Please point if any such campaign already exists. Ravi ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] A campaign for stopping donations to Wikimedia
Kevin, 1. WMF has questioned the salary rationale for WMIN staff. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:PEG/WM_IN/Program_Grant_Quarter_1_2013#Measurement_system_for_outreach_events_and_salary_rationale and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:WM_IN/Bootstrap_Grant#A_clearer_definition_of_the_executive_manager.27s_role before. But, I see no such questions ever asked for CIS. To provide you the context: The annual salary of CIS-A2K program director alone is 2,400,000 INR per year which is 29% more than the WMIN's whole annual budget for last year which is 1,848,736 INR. T. Sowmyan who did a wonderful job as WMIN's executive manager got paid 504,000 INR a year. This is less than the amount CIS-A2K pays to its advisor Dr. Tejaswini Niranjana which is 528,000 INR. She gets this paid a s a distinguished fellow of CIS for which she is not expected to do anything. 2. FDC has commented that WMIN aiming to go from 0.5 staff to 3 staff is 600% growth. But, I have seen no such comments on CIS having 5 full time staff to begin with and planning to add 2 more in the coming year. 3. CIS-A2K has applied for an institutional development fee of 1,673,314 INR which is almost 50% of WMIN's annual budget. And CIS-A2K has the liberty to spend it anyway they want. If this is not discrimination or double standard, then what is this? Ravi ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] A campaign for stopping donations to Wikimedia
Why not wikimeedia cant grow without forighn funds.Almost all technichal platforms are developed+code is gnu licenced And all most all contents in web is licenced under creative commons licence. and in india we have 110 millions of population.So many indians are trained in global standards. I thinks this is a time to think a complete indian wiki. This is what i felt that's all. cheers. On 4/30/14, Kevin Gorman kgor...@gmail.com wrote: I would equally suggest that trying to cut off or limit the flow of funds to the movement because you're upset that someone is being overpaid is putting your personal interest above the movement's interest. I mean, if you were literally successful in your stated goal, the movement would no longer *exist*. I'm sure the FDC will take relevant factors in to consideration when looking at CIS's request, there's no need for hyperbolic calls to start a donation boycott. If this were truly just about profligate spending, there's probably a hundred things in the Wikimedia movement you could latch on to that are more outrageous. --- Kevin Gorman On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 8:57 AM, Ravishankar ravidre...@gmail.com wrote: Kevin, It isn't about the exact numbers and percentages. It is about integrity. You accept that you are getting over paid and yet you won't fix it, then it is putting your personal interest above the movement's interest. You call yourself a non-proft and yet you pay a salary that is far above for-proft standards. And when we ask for results or performance analysis, you say that we can't measure that yet. CIS acknowledges that it is over paying its staffhttps://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2013-2014_round2/The_Centre_for_Internet_and_Society/Proposal_form#Q19disproportionate to industry standards and their own institution's salary structure. Yet, 51.26% of their budgethttps://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/India_Access_To_Knowledge/Draft_Work_plan_July_2014_-_June_2015/Budget#Budget_as_per_Expenditure_Headsgoes to payments towards full time staff, resource persons and consultants (line items 1, 7 and 11.2). This is against the guidelines issued to the FDChttp://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Minutes/2013-04-18#Guidance_for_the_FDCon rising cost of institutionalization. This inflated structure is a mistake created by WMF and it should own the responsibility of fixing it. Just because movement funds are available in plenty, you don't go around wasting it. Ravi ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] A campaign for stopping donations to Wikimedia
HOme work?. I hate it from my school days :) I just want to tell a story about anna hasare that movement is completly based on online acttivitys such peopels are all from india and kejariwalls AAP is completly based on online activitys Are you peopels are able to accept india is already matured in the case of online activity?. Now think why there is no peopels in WIKI apart from some south indians?. On 5/1/14, Kevin Gorman kgor...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Karthik - I'll step back from the conversation after this, but did want to say that although I haven't been active in many discussions on this list, I've read almost every conversation on every public list related to the Wikimedia movement's activities in India for the last several years, as well as those private lists which I have access to, so I'm not coming in completely out of the blue (including a lot of the discussions and frustrations around the catalyst program and how it was split off.) I'm not actively trying to support CIS's practices, or say they should get their entire grant - I haven't evaluated it on anywhere near an adequate basis to have an opinion on it (I'm thoroughly obsessive about evaluating grants.) I do think it's significant that they indicated an active desire to fix them over time while not being unfair to their current employees - WMDC's most recent grant brought up some questions about how Wikimedia movement affiliates should be treating employees, and I think it will probably be necessary to come up with movement wide standards at some point, where CIS may present valuable guidance of a slightly different sort. I understand where Ravi's frustrations are coming from (and I'm pretty sure I've spoken more with WMIN members in my movement work than people affiliated with CIS,) I just wanted to speak up when I saw someone with advanced permissions on multiple projects actively suggest an action that, if successful, would not be good, and even if not successful, won't be good. I would highly encourage people to focus efforts in productive directions, like improving local fundraising ability, or in participating on some of the meta-movement discussions that are happening right now about the FDC and its future, how we should expect movement affiliate employees to be treated, etc. (Although I also can't blame anyone who feels a need to step back out of frustration; the direction of Ravi's email just concerned me.) I think it would even probably to do detailed post-mortems as has started for the Belfer WiR posting to ensure that lessons learned from past mistakes are not repeated (it's worth noting that many of those involved in splitting off the catalyst programs have left the Foundation, and a lot of their knowledge about what went wrong, including what mistakes they may've made, may have left with them without being recorded.) Best, Kevin Gorman On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 12:24 PM, Karthik Nadar karthik...@gmail.comwrote: When its about the Indian Community, I would further appreciate if community members from India write in here. There seems to be more to foreign members defending CIS-A2K grant while it should be more of Indian community either defending or chasing. I think Gerard needs to understand the Indian Community from depth; not keep on defending CIS-A2K just because you were supposed to run a project with them. The volunteer community here can also do that. We have well versed Wikidata contributors. Please see how the volunteer activities have dropped down so tremendously since past two years. Everyone's comment on the discussion is appreciated; doesn't matters in support or in contrast againsy the FDC proposal of CIS-A2K. But, seriously and on first basis, it should be coming from Indian community members not from anyone who doesn't understand the current scenario here. General comments from anyone is welcome, but please do some home-work first. Hi Ravi, I'm sure campaigning against donations to Wikimedia will bring the movement in bad light; but something like campaigning for Wikimedia India and deteriorating its dependency on WMF will be awesome. Wikimedia India currently needs some legal help to initiate after which we believe that this is something needs to be achieved with strong support from the community. WMF has already decided that it wants to create more and more mess here. I'm sure to see that the CIS-A2K will get almost 100% for what they have requested for [maybe more :P]. Things are all scripted and discussions are mere drama. Creation of such a project is itself a great proof for that. Another example is: When first employee of WMIN was hired, WMF created such a mess out of it. When A2K was started, WMIN had to no chance to voice out for or against it. Please note: I don't have any personal intentions against CIS. They have been so open and helpful to WMIN. Its the WMF attitude towards its focus in India that
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] A campaign for stopping donations to Wikimedia
Pradeep's email sums up the scenario pretty well. I completely agree with the points he's put forth. It is a very sad situation. As for Ravi, being a long-time member of Wikimedia community in India, I can understand where he comes from while evidently seeming to obstruct the funding. All I can say seeing him from a distance is that his intentions at the end of it look good. His commitment to the movement seems very strong. He's obviously thinking long term about the movement in India. On 30 April 2014 15:33, Pradeep Mohandas pradeep.mohan...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, I think I should write more bluntly to put this point across. For the quantum of money spent, I'd like to see a WHOLE LOT more than what is on offer now. I differ from the position Ravi has taken of wanting to stop funding etc., We, in India, have been stung once by the work of India Program. What you see here is just a case of once bitten twice shy. We are being extra cautious here because while CIS can walk away from failed programmes (since even did WMF India programs), leaving the community to clean up the mess. No efforts have been made since to rebuild the community that once left the movement after a similar storm. This is the reason why you see no engagement from the community with CIS' early efforts here. Can you see any documented community feedback? All work seem to have happened off-wiki and the low trust environment in which they worked led to differing versions of the same conversations happening. Backstage conversations, undocumented meetings, lack of transparency have only worsened the situation. You see conversations where WMF staff daring WMIN to make certain things public and counter accusations and accusations flying. Gerard is right. The first thing that needs to be done is to build the community - the people. The situation as is inspires no one. Frankly, each individual left on his own home computer and his own passion will have accomplished the same as we have. We all need to become Wikipedians again. Warm regards, Pradeep Mohandas -- Hari Prasad Nadig http://hpnadig.net http://twitter.com/hpnadig http://flickr.com/hpnadig ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] A campaign for stopping donations to Wikimedia
Hoi, What is unclear in the response of Asaf that there is no relation between the money received by CIS and the Indian chapter? There is no rupee less available to India when either CIS or the Indian chapter gets less money. When you spoil it for CIS, you spoil it for India. When the Indian chapter finds it in itself to cooperate with CIS, the likelyhood is that it will inherit its programs and budget at the end of its run. With your campaign to stop asking people to donate to the WMF, you spoil it for both. It is NOT a zero sum game and you have everything to lose. This is a great way to lose everything.. Ravi what is your motivation, how do you gain? Thanks, GerardM On 30 April 2014 10:07, Ravishankar ravidre...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, CIS-A2K has officially stated that it won't fix their erratic salary structure. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2013-2014_round2/The_Centre_for_Internet_and_Society/Proposal_form#Reply_about_salary_structure Why should Wikimedia donors pay for the mistakes of the WMF? I am thinking if we should start campaigning asking people not to donate to WMF citing wasteful expenditures like these. Please point if any such campaign already exists. Ravi ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] A campaign for stopping donations to Wikimedia
Gerard, Thanks for the carrots, sticks and snake oil. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2013-2014_round2/The_Centre_for_Internet_and_Society/Proposal_form#Long-term_organisational_plans.3F makes it clear that CIS-A2K is not going to exit anytime soon and they will compete. Even competition is fine. But compete on level playing grounds. I trust WMIN will grow based on it's stengths and not based on false hopes. We also have communities that keep growing without major institutional support. End of CIS-A2K is not the end of Wikimedia in India. Ravi ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] A campaign for stopping donations to Wikimedia
Like Gerard, I'm quite confused at the purpose of trying to get people to stop donating to the Wikimedia Foundation, and am a bit disappointed to see such a suggestion coming from someone who holds advanced rights on some of the projects. I also note that the response of CIS-A2K's executive director notes that if it is determined there is a problem in terms of their salary structure, it is one he wants to address, even if it may take some time to do so because he (reasonably, imo) doesn't want to cut the salaries of current employees steeply. Looking at the table, it looks like CIS-A2K's total staff budget is a little shy of $300k a year. The FDC is currently handing out what, $6m USD a year? Even if CIS was entirely funded out of the FDC (and it isn't, their APG request is for less than $300k,) that's pretty much a drop in the bucket of available funds. It's been made clear that just because CIS may be awarded funds doesn't mean that WMIN won't also be awarded funds, and that the entities aren't in direct competition with each other. Trying to do something like get people to boycott donating to the WMF because CIS is asking for a fraction of a percent of WMF's total budget and something like 5% of available FDC funds to be given to them is pointless if you don't succeed and shooting yourself in the foot if you do succeed. If you were partially successful, your own funding in future years would likely be diminished due to less overall availability of funds, and if you were fully successful... well, Wikipedia wouldn't exist. Best, Kevin Gorman On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 1:50 AM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.comwrote: Hoi, What is unclear in the response of Asaf that there is no relation between the money received by CIS and the Indian chapter? There is no rupee less available to India when either CIS or the Indian chapter gets less money. When you spoil it for CIS, you spoil it for India. When the Indian chapter finds it in itself to cooperate with CIS, the likelyhood is that it will inherit its programs and budget at the end of its run. With your campaign to stop asking people to donate to the WMF, you spoil it for both. It is NOT a zero sum game and you have everything to lose. This is a great way to lose everything.. Ravi what is your motivation, how do you gain? Thanks, GerardM On 30 April 2014 10:07, Ravishankar ravidre...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, CIS-A2K has officially stated that it won't fix their erratic salary structure. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2013-2014_round2/The_Centre_for_Internet_and_Society/Proposal_form#Reply_about_salary_structure Why should Wikimedia donors pay for the mistakes of the WMF? I am thinking if we should start campaigning asking people not to donate to WMF citing wasteful expenditures like these. Please point if any such campaign already exists. Ravi ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] A campaign for stopping donations to Wikimedia
Kevin, It isn't about the exact numbers and percentages. It is about integrity. You accept that you are getting over paid and yet you won't fix it, then it is putting your personal interest above the movement's interest. You call yourself a non-proft and yet you pay a salary that is far above for-proft standards. And when we ask for results or performance analysis, you say that we can't measure that yet. CIS acknowledges that it is over paying its staffhttps://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2013-2014_round2/The_Centre_for_Internet_and_Society/Proposal_form#Q19disproportionate to industry standards and their own institution's salary structure. Yet, 51.26% of their budgethttps://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/India_Access_To_Knowledge/Draft_Work_plan_July_2014_-_June_2015/Budget#Budget_as_per_Expenditure_Headsgoes to payments towards full time staff, resource persons and consultants (line items 1, 7 and 11.2). This is against the guidelines issued to the FDChttp://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Minutes/2013-04-18#Guidance_for_the_FDCon rising cost of institutionalization. This inflated structure is a mistake created by WMF and it should own the responsibility of fixing it. Just because movement funds are available in plenty, you don't go around wasting it. Ravi ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] A campaign for stopping donations to Wikimedia
I would equally suggest that trying to cut off or limit the flow of funds to the movement because you're upset that someone is being overpaid is putting your personal interest above the movement's interest. I mean, if you were literally successful in your stated goal, the movement would no longer *exist*. I'm sure the FDC will take relevant factors in to consideration when looking at CIS's request, there's no need for hyperbolic calls to start a donation boycott. If this were truly just about profligate spending, there's probably a hundred things in the Wikimedia movement you could latch on to that are more outrageous. --- Kevin Gorman On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 8:57 AM, Ravishankar ravidre...@gmail.com wrote: Kevin, It isn't about the exact numbers and percentages. It is about integrity. You accept that you are getting over paid and yet you won't fix it, then it is putting your personal interest above the movement's interest. You call yourself a non-proft and yet you pay a salary that is far above for-proft standards. And when we ask for results or performance analysis, you say that we can't measure that yet. CIS acknowledges that it is over paying its staffhttps://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2013-2014_round2/The_Centre_for_Internet_and_Society/Proposal_form#Q19disproportionate to industry standards and their own institution's salary structure. Yet, 51.26% of their budgethttps://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/India_Access_To_Knowledge/Draft_Work_plan_July_2014_-_June_2015/Budget#Budget_as_per_Expenditure_Headsgoes to payments towards full time staff, resource persons and consultants (line items 1, 7 and 11.2). This is against the guidelines issued to the FDChttp://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Minutes/2013-04-18#Guidance_for_the_FDCon rising cost of institutionalization. This inflated structure is a mistake created by WMF and it should own the responsibility of fixing it. Just because movement funds are available in plenty, you don't go around wasting it. Ravi ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] A campaign for stopping donations to Wikimedia
When its about the Indian Community, I would further appreciate if community members from India write in here. There seems to be more to foreign members defending CIS-A2K grant while it should be more of Indian community either defending or chasing. I think Gerard needs to understand the Indian Community from depth; not keep on defending CIS-A2K just because you were supposed to run a project with them. The volunteer community here can also do that. We have well versed Wikidata contributors. Please see how the volunteer activities have dropped down so tremendously since past two years. Everyone's comment on the discussion is appreciated; doesn't matters in support or in contrast againsy the FDC proposal of CIS-A2K. But, seriously and on first basis, it should be coming from Indian community members not from anyone who doesn't understand the current scenario here. General comments from anyone is welcome, but please do some home-work first. Hi Ravi, I'm sure campaigning against donations to Wikimedia will bring the movement in bad light; but something like campaigning for Wikimedia India and deteriorating its dependency on WMF will be awesome. Wikimedia India currently needs some legal help to initiate after which we believe that this is something needs to be achieved with strong support from the community. WMF has already decided that it wants to create more and more mess here. I'm sure to see that the CIS-A2K will get almost 100% for what they have requested for [maybe more :P]. Things are all scripted and discussions are mere drama. Creation of such a project is itself a great proof for that. Another example is: When first employee of WMIN was hired, WMF created such a mess out of it. When A2K was started, WMIN had to no chance to voice out for or against it. Please note: I don't have any personal intentions against CIS. They have been so open and helpful to WMIN. Its the WMF attitude towards its focus in India that creates trouble and mess. Thanks to Them! Thanks, Karthik Nadar. On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 10:21 PM, Kevin Gorman kgor...@gmail.com wrote: I would equally suggest that trying to cut off or limit the flow of funds to the movement because you're upset that someone is being overpaid is putting your personal interest above the movement's interest. I mean, if you were literally successful in your stated goal, the movement would no longer *exist*. I'm sure the FDC will take relevant factors in to consideration when looking at CIS's request, there's no need for hyperbolic calls to start a donation boycott. If this were truly just about profligate spending, there's probably a hundred things in the Wikimedia movement you could latch on to that are more outrageous. --- Kevin Gorman On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 8:57 AM, Ravishankar ravidre...@gmail.com wrote: Kevin, It isn't about the exact numbers and percentages. It is about integrity. You accept that you are getting over paid and yet you won't fix it, then it is putting your personal interest above the movement's interest. You call yourself a non-proft and yet you pay a salary that is far above for-proft standards. And when we ask for results or performance analysis, you say that we can't measure that yet. CIS acknowledges that it is over paying its staffhttps://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2013-2014_round2/The_Centre_for_Internet_and_Society/Proposal_form#Q19disproportionate to industry standards and their own institution's salary structure. Yet, 51.26% of their budgethttps://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/India_Access_To_Knowledge/Draft_Work_plan_July_2014_-_June_2015/Budget#Budget_as_per_Expenditure_Headsgoes to payments towards full time staff, resource persons and consultants (line items 1, 7 and 11.2). This is against the guidelines issued to the FDChttp://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Minutes/2013-04-18#Guidance_for_the_FDCon rising cost of institutionalization. This inflated structure is a mistake created by WMF and it should own the responsibility of fixing it. Just because movement funds are available in plenty, you don't go around wasting it. Ravi ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] A campaign for stopping donations to Wikimedia
Hi Karthik - I'll step back from the conversation after this, but did want to say that although I haven't been active in many discussions on this list, I've read almost every conversation on every public list related to the Wikimedia movement's activities in India for the last several years, as well as those private lists which I have access to, so I'm not coming in completely out of the blue (including a lot of the discussions and frustrations around the catalyst program and how it was split off.) I'm not actively trying to support CIS's practices, or say they should get their entire grant - I haven't evaluated it on anywhere near an adequate basis to have an opinion on it (I'm thoroughly obsessive about evaluating grants.) I do think it's significant that they indicated an active desire to fix them over time while not being unfair to their current employees - WMDC's most recent grant brought up some questions about how Wikimedia movement affiliates should be treating employees, and I think it will probably be necessary to come up with movement wide standards at some point, where CIS may present valuable guidance of a slightly different sort. I understand where Ravi's frustrations are coming from (and I'm pretty sure I've spoken more with WMIN members in my movement work than people affiliated with CIS,) I just wanted to speak up when I saw someone with advanced permissions on multiple projects actively suggest an action that, if successful, would not be good, and even if not successful, won't be good. I would highly encourage people to focus efforts in productive directions, like improving local fundraising ability, or in participating on some of the meta-movement discussions that are happening right now about the FDC and its future, how we should expect movement affiliate employees to be treated, etc. (Although I also can't blame anyone who feels a need to step back out of frustration; the direction of Ravi's email just concerned me.) I think it would even probably to do detailed post-mortems as has started for the Belfer WiR posting to ensure that lessons learned from past mistakes are not repeated (it's worth noting that many of those involved in splitting off the catalyst programs have left the Foundation, and a lot of their knowledge about what went wrong, including what mistakes they may've made, may have left with them without being recorded.) Best, Kevin Gorman On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 12:24 PM, Karthik Nadar karthik...@gmail.comwrote: When its about the Indian Community, I would further appreciate if community members from India write in here. There seems to be more to foreign members defending CIS-A2K grant while it should be more of Indian community either defending or chasing. I think Gerard needs to understand the Indian Community from depth; not keep on defending CIS-A2K just because you were supposed to run a project with them. The volunteer community here can also do that. We have well versed Wikidata contributors. Please see how the volunteer activities have dropped down so tremendously since past two years. Everyone's comment on the discussion is appreciated; doesn't matters in support or in contrast againsy the FDC proposal of CIS-A2K. But, seriously and on first basis, it should be coming from Indian community members not from anyone who doesn't understand the current scenario here. General comments from anyone is welcome, but please do some home-work first. Hi Ravi, I'm sure campaigning against donations to Wikimedia will bring the movement in bad light; but something like campaigning for Wikimedia India and deteriorating its dependency on WMF will be awesome. Wikimedia India currently needs some legal help to initiate after which we believe that this is something needs to be achieved with strong support from the community. WMF has already decided that it wants to create more and more mess here. I'm sure to see that the CIS-A2K will get almost 100% for what they have requested for [maybe more :P]. Things are all scripted and discussions are mere drama. Creation of such a project is itself a great proof for that. Another example is: When first employee of WMIN was hired, WMF created such a mess out of it. When A2K was started, WMIN had to no chance to voice out for or against it. Please note: I don't have any personal intentions against CIS. They have been so open and helpful to WMIN. Its the WMF attitude towards its focus in India that creates trouble and mess. Thanks to Them! Thanks, Karthik Nadar. On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 10:21 PM, Kevin Gorman kgor...@gmail.com wrote: I would equally suggest that trying to cut off or limit the flow of funds to the movement because you're upset that someone is being overpaid is putting your personal interest above the movement's interest. I mean, if you were literally successful in your stated goal, the movement would no longer *exist*. I'm sure the FDC will take relevant factors in
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] A campaign for stopping donations to Wikimedia
Kevin, // I just wanted to speak up when I saw someone with advanced permissions on multiple projects actively suggest an action that, if successful, would not be good, and even if not successful, won't be good.// My criticism is not different from what Sue Gardner, WMF Executive director says here: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/10/08/wikipedia_foundation_money_in_wrong_place/ I am speaking on behalf of the community that edits, the people who donate. The community is getting demotivated and the donor money is getting wasted. And my personal interest is to stop that. *What is CIS's personal interest?The more bloated the grant, the more money they get through 10% institutional development fee which they can spend anwyay they want.* *Higher the salary, the current employees of CIS can pay their bank loans. * Huh, organizations down size, resize, fire employees all the time. If CIS-A2K employees are worthy of what they are getting paid, they should have no problem finding a better job. Or, if they are at least 1/10th committed to the movement, they should be able to work under normal salaries too. If this is too much hassle, I welcome all the employees to quit and serve the movement as volunteers instead of giving sermons for us. // I would highly encourage people to focus efforts in productive directions,// This is like asking to plant a tree in your house and stop worrying about the polluting factory nearby. A typical middle class third world sermon. Nevertheless, we are all active community volunteers. So, please be assured that we are all doing positive work. Only issue is that the double standards followed by WMF is demotivating the community heavily. //and a lot of their knowledge about what went wrong, including what mistakes they may've made,// Bloated salaries are a mistake. Fix it now. Programs with low impact and high cost are drafted to justify the existance of current jobs. Fix it now. //If this were truly just about profligate spending, there's probably a hundred things in the Wikimedia movement you could latch on to that are more outrageous.// Asking to let a small mistake go because there are bigger mistakes is the root cause of all corruption and inefficiency. Ravi ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
