Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad

[Dhaval S. Vyas]

Thank you Bence for making this public, as it seems that even I missed to
see that agreement announced here.

Regards,
Dhaval
On 27 Jan 2013 17:04, "Bence Damokos"  wrote:

> Hi Yuvi,
>
> An agreement was reached that the group would first seek recognition  as a
> Wikimedia Chapter SIG and then as a Wikimedia User Group.
>
> Best regards,
> Bence
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 4:40 AM, Yuvi Panda  wrote:
>
>> Seems to have stalled? Any update on this from AffCom / Chapter?
>>
>>
>> --
>> Yuvi Panda T
>> http://yuvi.in/blog
>>
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad

[Bence Damokos]

Hi Yuvi,

An agreement was reached that the group would first seek recognition  as a
Wikimedia Chapter SIG and then as a Wikimedia User Group.

Best regards,
Bence


On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 4:40 AM, Yuvi Panda  wrote:

> Seems to have stalled? Any update on this from AffCom / Chapter?
>
>
> --
> Yuvi Panda T
> http://yuvi.in/blog
>
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>
>
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad

[Yuvi Panda]

Seems to have stalled? Any update on this from AffCom / Chapter?

-- 
Yuvi Panda T
http://yuvi.in/blog
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad

[Pradeep Mohandas]

Dear Harsh, 


I understand that it can be sometimes frustrating to be answering a bunch of 
questions from other Wikipedians (including, perhaps me) however it serves a 
purpose. 


You have suggested the formation, on this list, of a new entity. There are two 
things worth congragulating you here. One, that you are willing to take a lead 
on the formation of an entity. Second, that you have announced it on this list. 

However, this act of creating a new entity comes along with it the 
responsoibility of answering questions and concerns other members of the 
community may have. This helps people who want to join in decide and understand 
what they are getting into. 


It also makes things simpler for the teams and groups following your lead. 
Being a pioneer requires effort because change is resisted. Alternatives will 
be suggested and the group must stand the test of why another entity may not do 
the work that this group does.

Do engage with the community here. It may be frustrating and take your time in 
the beginning but I believe it would be worthwhile in the long run. This has 
been my experience.

 
Pradeep Mohandas
How Pradeep uses email? - http://goo.gl/6v1I9



 From: Arun Ramarathnam 
To: Wikimedia India Community list  
Sent: Sunday, 6 January 2013 6:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group 
Ahmedabad
 

Dear Harsh,

First of all thanks to you and the volunteers in Ahmendabad who are keen to 
contribute to Mediawiki. it is evident from your contributions to Gujarati 
(around Mediawiki) that you and others are very interested to do your bit. 
Please continue to do this with the passion and the enthusiasm some of you have 
show already.



On Sun, Jan 6, 2013 at 12:34 AM, Harsh Kothari  
wrote:

Next is I don't want to get involved in this type of discussion. I just want to 
contribute and code. This is probably the best we can do, since the rest of 
Ahmedabad group members are also more interested in coding than in formal 
discussions like this one. We silently help growing the MediaWiki community 
across India. That is what matters.
>

As a far these "formal discussions" go they are essential to sort out and bring 
clarity to the emerging models proposed by the foundation. There are matters of 
scope of multiple entities at play, overlapping turfs, trademark licensing, 
membership, continuity of activities and funding that are involved.

Building volunteer groups is best done without the need for a registered entity 
as they come with the burden of maintaining and ensuring compliance to the 
regulatory authorities. The focus while bootstrapping these ought to be (as you 
right said) on building the volunteer pool.


Let the chapter and the WMF sort out the larger model while you folks keep the 
focus on the technical work that you are passionate about. I am sure the 
chapter or the WMF would be happen to support if you were to need any help.

Dear All,

For now, it is unclear to me what treating the Ahmedabad Mediawiki user  group 
as a formal wikimedia user group actually means? Does that mean it would be 
non-incorporated entity and have trademark reuse rights (from the chapter?). It 
suppose it would need to depend on funding as needed from the chapter or WMF. 

Can someone clarify?
Is there any other aspect that I may be missing?

To chime in on the observations made earlier on the thread...I for for one also 
believes...

India has been a test bed to test out models without  thinking through the 
ramifications enough. The creation of India programs (first intended as a 
temporary office, then a formal entity, subsequently wound up (which came as a 
huge shock to many) and handed over to CIS (now A2K). I do think some of these 
moves ought to have happened with more chapter involvement. 

If for one don't understand how first a focused Boots-on-the-ground initiative 
is launched and subsequently there is a move to a narrowed focused model (a 
complete change in approach). This move has surely impacted the dynamics at the 
ground in India immensely. We have lost some truly good wikipedians who have 
moved on in disillusionment.
 
I care for the movement and do believe that strengthening chapters to be the 
custodians of the movement in respective countries is the way to go forward. In 
my view, all movement entities should focus on assisting chapters to be 
successful who in term focus on supporting the community and local outreach. If 
there isn't belief in chapters, better to scrap them than run parallel entities 
(I am not referring to the Ahmedabad initiative here).  

What is sad is in the midst of this complexity of organisational entities, we 
perhaps risk losing truly enthusiastic volunteers whose only  interest is in 
contributing to the movement. Catalysing and supporting volunteer enthusiasm 
and interest ought to be  our collective sole purpose and focus.

I request Harsh

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad

[Arun Ramarathnam]

Dear Harsh,

First of all thanks to you and the volunteers in Ahmendabad who are keen to
contribute to Mediawiki. it is evident from your contributions to Gujarati
(around Mediawiki) that you and others are very interested to do your bit.
Please continue to do this with the passion and the enthusiasm some of you
have show already.


On Sun, Jan 6, 2013 at 12:34 AM, Harsh Kothari wrote:

> Next is I don't want to get involved in this type of discussion. I just
> want to contribute and code. This is probably the best we can do, since the
> rest of Ahmedabad group members are also more interested in coding than in
> formal discussions like this one. We silently help growing the MediaWiki
> community across India. That is what matters.
>

As a far these "formal discussions" go they are essential to sort out and
bring clarity to the emerging models proposed by the foundation. There are
matters of scope of multiple entities at play, overlapping turfs, trademark
licensing, membership, continuity of activities and funding that
are involved.

Building volunteer groups is best done without the need for a registered
entity as they come with the burden of maintaining and ensuring compliance
to the regulatory authorities. The focus while bootstrapping these ought to
be (as you right said) on building the volunteer pool.

Let the chapter and the WMF sort out the larger model while you folks keep
the focus on the technical work that you are passionate about. I am sure
the chapter or the WMF would be happen to support if you were to need any
help.

Dear All,

For now, it is unclear to me what treating the Ahmedabad Mediawiki user
 group as a formal wikimedia user group actually means? Does that mean it
would be non-incorporated entity and have trademark reuse rights (from the
chapter?). It suppose it would need to depend on funding as needed from the
chapter or WMF.

Can someone clarify?
Is there any other aspect that I may be missing?

To chime in on the observations made earlier on the thread...I for for one
also believes...

India has been a test bed to test out models without  thinking through the
ramifications enough. The creation of India programs (first intended as a
temporary office, then a formal entity, subsequently wound up (which came
as a huge shock to many) and handed over to CIS (now A2K). I do think some
of these moves ought to have happened with more chapter involvement.

If for one don't understand how first a focused
Boots-on-the-ground initiative is launched and subsequently there is a move
to a narrowed focused model (a complete change in approach). This move has
surely impacted the dynamics at the ground in India immensely. We have lost
some truly good wikipedians who have moved on in disillusionment.

I care for the movement and do believe that strengthening chapters to be
the custodians of the movement in respective countries is the way to go
forward. In my view, all movement entities should focus on assisting
chapters to be successful who in term focus on supporting the community and
local outreach. If there isn't belief in chapters, better to scrap them
than run parallel entities (I am not referring to the Ahmedabad initiative
here).

What is sad is in the midst of this complexity of organisational entities,
we perhaps risk losing truly enthusiastic volunteers whose only  interest
is in contributing to the movement. Catalysing and supporting volunteer
enthusiasm and interest ought to be  our collective sole purpose and focus.

I request Harsh and the other volunteers to keep the focus on the "coding"
and the cool stuff than get caught up in the debate of the organizational
complexity which is best left to the chapter EC and the WMF to sort out
quickly.

regards
Arun
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad

[Harsh Kothari]

Hi All

Since there is long discussion about MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad I am writing 
this mail to give some points to you.

1st and most important point: all the motivation and why I am promoting this 
group is clearcut written in our submission.

http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Groups/Proposals/Ahmedabad

Next is I don't want to get involved in this type of discussion. I just want to 
contribute and code. This is probably the best we can do, since the rest of 
Ahmedabad group members are also more interested in coding than in formal 
discussions like this one. We silently help growing the MediaWiki community 
across India. That is what matters.

Here you can read the point of view of the other members:
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Groups/Proposals/Ahmedabad#As_members

Once the Wikimedia India SIGs are established and we see how they work we will 
consider. In the meantime we are happy being a MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad.

Happy Coding and contributing.

Thanks
Harsh
---
Harsh Kothari
Research Fellow, 
Physical Research Laboratory(PRL).
Ahmedabad.


On 05-Jan-2013, at 12:53 PM, Alolita Sharma wrote:

> My two cents based on two decades of experience in open source and
> growing adoption and contributions in India:
> 
> Mediawiki is an open source project which has community members
> contributing to it globally. Having a technical Mediawiki user group
> with developers gathering together for face-to-face technical
> discussions or coding is a well established norm on all open source
> projects. Having a local user group mailing list is also fine. The
> most important component to maintain a successful technical user group
> is to have active members who find the group useful for learning best
> practices in open source software development, contributing code,
> localizing software interfaces and be active contributors to the
> larger global code base.
> 
> It is irrelevant whether WMF or some staff member or some local
> chapter member blesses this. Open source does not work on the basis of
> needing someone's consent. It works when you have a local problem, bug
> or feature you would like to develop and improve the software
> (Mediawiki in this case) you use or want to improve. And you have more
> than 2 active developers locally :-) The idea is to code not just
> think and talk about it.
> 
> Harsh - if you have more than 3 developers who are serious, local and
> want to learn more about Mediawiki, form your own user group
> informally. It doesn't have to be a formal group (locally registered
> society) unless you start collecting money. Keep the barriers to
> coding and real work as low as possible. I will be happy to help if
> you need it.
> 
> Hope this helps.
> Best,
> Alolita
> 
> On Sat, Jan 5, 2013 at 10:57 AM, Anirudh Bhati  wrote:
>> I don't see the bunch of coders representing their case over on this
>> list.  I see Harsh as an active volunteer, who else is active?
>> 
>> On Sat, Jan 5, 2013 at 12:10 PM, Arun Ganesh  wrote:
>>> Let me (take the effort) to skip through the many lines of diplomacy. What I
>>> understand:
>>> 
>>> Bunch of coders want to form their own group so that the coders can focus
>>> on.. coding and not going through endless email threads like this one.
>>> 
>>> I support!
>>> 
>>> PS: I'm no longer with WMF. But if there's one thing I learnt, creating
>>> things is faster and more fun than trying to get consensus. And we
>>> desperately need more people who can develop, minus the bullshit, or we are
>>> never getting out of this well.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Arun Ganesh
>>> (planemad)
>>> 
>>> ___
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>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
>>> 
>> 
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad

[Alolita Sharma]

My two cents based on two decades of experience in open source and
growing adoption and contributions in India:

Mediawiki is an open source project which has community members
contributing to it globally. Having a technical Mediawiki user group
with developers gathering together for face-to-face technical
discussions or coding is a well established norm on all open source
projects. Having a local user group mailing list is also fine. The
most important component to maintain a successful technical user group
is to have active members who find the group useful for learning best
practices in open source software development, contributing code,
localizing software interfaces and be active contributors to the
larger global code base.

It is irrelevant whether WMF or some staff member or some local
chapter member blesses this. Open source does not work on the basis of
needing someone's consent. It works when you have a local problem, bug
or feature you would like to develop and improve the software
(Mediawiki in this case) you use or want to improve. And you have more
than 2 active developers locally :-) The idea is to code not just
think and talk about it.

Harsh - if you have more than 3 developers who are serious, local and
want to learn more about Mediawiki, form your own user group
informally. It doesn't have to be a formal group (locally registered
society) unless you start collecting money. Keep the barriers to
coding and real work as low as possible. I will be happy to help if
you need it.

Hope this helps.
Best,
Alolita

On Sat, Jan 5, 2013 at 10:57 AM, Anirudh Bhati  wrote:
> I don't see the bunch of coders representing their case over on this
> list.  I see Harsh as an active volunteer, who else is active?
>
> On Sat, Jan 5, 2013 at 12:10 PM, Arun Ganesh  wrote:
>> Let me (take the effort) to skip through the many lines of diplomacy. What I
>> understand:
>>
>> Bunch of coders want to form their own group so that the coders can focus
>> on.. coding and not going through endless email threads like this one.
>>
>> I support!
>>
>> PS: I'm no longer with WMF. But if there's one thing I learnt, creating
>> things is faster and more fun than trying to get consensus. And we
>> desperately need more people who can develop, minus the bullshit, or we are
>> never getting out of this well.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Arun Ganesh
>> (planemad)
>>
>> ___
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>> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
>>
>
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad

[Anirudh Bhati]

I don't see the bunch of coders representing their case over on this
list.  I see Harsh as an active volunteer, who else is active?

On Sat, Jan 5, 2013 at 12:10 PM, Arun Ganesh  wrote:
> Let me (take the effort) to skip through the many lines of diplomacy. What I
> understand:
>
> Bunch of coders want to form their own group so that the coders can focus
> on.. coding and not going through endless email threads like this one.
>
> I support!
>
> PS: I'm no longer with WMF. But if there's one thing I learnt, creating
> things is faster and more fun than trying to get consensus. And we
> desperately need more people who can develop, minus the bullshit, or we are
> never getting out of this well.
>
>
> --
> Arun Ganesh
> (planemad)
>
> ___
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> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
>

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad

[Arun Ganesh]

Let me (take the effort) to skip through the many lines of diplomacy. What
I understand:

   - Bunch of coders want to form their own group so that the coders can
   focus on.. coding and not going through endless email threads like this one.

I support!

PS: I'm no longer with WMF. But if there's one thing I learnt, creating
things is faster and more fun than trying to get consensus. And we
desperately need more people who can develop, minus the bullshit, or we are
never getting out of this well.


-- 
 Arun Ganesh
(planemad) 
 
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad

[Theo10011]

Hi Bence

On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 11:50 PM, Bence Damokos  wrote:

> Hi Theo,
>
> I think the historical context you put the Ahmedabad group in is
> fascinating, but imputing the creation of the proposed group to yet another
> WMF-led half-baked initiative is unfair.
>

It's not about the baking of it, as much as the baker. They start about the
same but these efforts are staff or consultant led most times that run out
of steam when the relevant person leaves. It's just creating this facade of
volunteer momentum doesn't actually create momentum that isn't there
organically.


>
> Wikimedia User Groups are finally getting off the ground; while the page
> might contain edits from me, it is considered official. There have
> been hiccups with getting trademarks sorted out but the first serious user
> group proposed is actually the meetup group of Munich, fully supported by
> Wikimedia DE in their attempt to get recognized. (See the WM DE
> chapter-created newsletter:
> https://blog.wikimedia.de/2012/11/15/wikimediawoche-462012/).
>

Now, back in my day :P .. I just remember smiling with Austin when he
would mention ChapCom approval and official status. The irony of an
unincorporated, unregistered, online body approving a registered,
incorporated one. Anyway, I just thought back then, 'official' didn't mean
as much as it does now. Anyone can go edit that page, remove or change the
majority of it still, something about the essence of that will get lost
soon.

Yes, I am aware of the Munich Group, that's why I said "one of the first".
I'm well aware of most pages and developments on Meta. ;) That was actually
an organic attempt by a meetup group that got support of the national
chapter, they are still active and meeting from what I saw last without
much incentive or push.


>
> User groups are meant to be created and recognized quickly (speed of the
> process will improve as we go on), perhaps even the 1-month timeframe might
> be considered too long if there are no complications; the model is an easy
> and not too risky way to empower a group who wants to conduct _offline_
> activities (the reasons you don't see the hundreds of on-wiki Wikiprojects
> applying for this status is that they are not eligible).
>

I'd differ here a bit. It might be they are not aware surely, or interested
but I'm sure that whatever eligibility that might be put up, can be
questioned, edited, debated or at last just ignored - again, that would be
the organic way.


>
> MediaWiki Groups are indeed a very new concept, but as they fit relatively
> well into the Wikimedia User Group model, which is overseen by a volunteer
> committee incidentally, it was agreed that it is better to have it
> integrated and approved by the volunteer Affiliations Committee.
>
> As for the Indian SIG model, it is understandably specific to the Indian
> chapter. The reason it is being considered is because Wikimedia
> organizations should be good neighbours, and the creation of new ones
> should be a carefully considered step. However, it might be that the final
> recommended best course of action is to 1) make the proposed group merely a
> SIG in this local context 2) make it only a MediaWiki Group 3) make it into
> both 4) continue this discussion in a way that the people behind the group
> simply give up and the problem vanishes.
> In considering the best way forward, one needs to consider the
> requirements of setting up a SIG (which requires Wikimedia India
> membership, and certain other unknown steps that are currently described on
> the closed members wiki of Wikimedia India – with a promise to make them
> public), an MG (which are described on the linked pages, but boil down to
> having at least three interested people with a common goal to do something
> offline and support from the relevant community(ies)) – my guess is that
> not counting prolonged discussions like this, the MG process is quicker so
> a reasonable final action plan would include first getting this status and
> then being recognized as an SIG, if option 3 above was the method chosen by
> the group.
>

As I said I don't much see the point to all of this. There are employees
here employed by WMF indirectly, a partner organization, a chapter. There
are interested volunteers in chapter that can help with those
organizations, there are contractors that answer directly to..someone?
at WMF, and there is a partner organization. I just didn't see the
impediment being faced to any work so far.

Anyway, I just wanted to reply to you. I had some free time to follow up on
this, I don't care much about the final decision beyond the big picture
stuff I've already said. I wish Harsh and this group well, and I hope that
there is something productive out of this.

Regards
Theo
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad

[Bence Damokos]

Hi Theo,

I think the historical context you put the Ahmedabad group in is
fascinating, but imputing the creation of the proposed group to yet another
WMF-led half-baked initiative is unfair.

Wikimedia User Groups are finally getting off the ground; while the page
might contain edits from me, it is considered official. There have
been hiccups with getting trademarks sorted out but the first serious user
group proposed is actually the meetup group of Munich, fully supported by
Wikimedia DE in their attempt to get recognized. (See the WM DE
chapter-created newsletter:
https://blog.wikimedia.de/2012/11/15/wikimediawoche-462012/).

User groups are meant to be created and recognized quickly (speed of the
process will improve as we go on), perhaps even the 1-month timeframe might
be considered too long if there are no complications; the model is an easy
and not too risky way to empower a group who wants to conduct _offline_
activities (the reasons you don't see the hundreds of on-wiki Wikiprojects
applying for this status is that they are not eligible).

MediaWiki Groups are indeed a very new concept, but as they fit relatively
well into the Wikimedia User Group model, which is overseen by a volunteer
committee incidentally, it was agreed that it is better to have it
integrated and approved by the volunteer Affiliations Committee.

As for the Indian SIG model, it is understandably specific to the Indian
chapter. The reason it is being considered is because Wikimedia
organizations should be good neighbours, and the creation of new ones
should be a carefully considered step. However, it might be that the final
recommended best course of action is to 1) make the proposed group merely a
SIG in this local context 2) make it only a MediaWiki Group 3) make it into
both 4) continue this discussion in a way that the people behind the group
simply give up and the problem vanishes.
In considering the best way forward, one needs to consider the requirements
of setting up a SIG (which requires Wikimedia India membership, and certain
other unknown steps that are currently described on the closed members wiki
of Wikimedia India – with a promise to make them public), an MG (which are
described on the linked pages, but boil down to having at least three
interested people with a common goal to do something offline and support
from the relevant community(ies)) – my guess is that not counting prolonged
discussions like this, the MG process is quicker so a reasonable final
action plan would include first getting this status and then being
recognized as an SIG, if option 3 above was the method chosen by the group.

Best regards,
Bence
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad

[Theo10011]

So here's my main concern.

On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 6:33 PM, Quim Gil  wrote:
>
> But the point that keeps me thinking is why the first response from
> Wikimedia India chapter to a new group of volunteers seems to be inquiring
> and resisting more than congratulating and embracing. When the AffCom said
> they wanted to check with the national chapter I thought it was a polite
> move and a way to make sure than nothing was wrong locally in Ahmedabad /
> Gujarat. I didn't expect a full questioning of MediaWiki Groups - or
> Wikimedia User Groups for that matter.
>

WMF's India activities started with a chapter. The chapter jumped through
hoops for over an year to get registered then another year to actually get
a single cent in (FCRA restrictions). Then came the WMF office in India,
Barry was hired, hisham was hired and a team was hired. Then an year later
Hisham and Barry left, the Office idea was thrown out, in exchange for a
grant to another organization, CIS. The staff that was hired are still
there or maybe not all of them. I have no idea what the status is or much
care to inquire, there is however little to no work that is visible. Anyway
then came this, all in the space of a month.

It seems India is being made a test ground for every new idea or
initiative, Erik or whoever has. Looking at the last one, they just seem to
move on after the relevant staff member at WMF leaves. It remains in pieces
without actually focusing on anything productive - no actual development,
no results, little activity.

Now the issue is this will be the 3rd or perhaps the 4th organizational
push associating itself with WMF. There is however, just a single
registered organization in India, which is exposed by law to any activities
befalling it or its members- The chapter. Indian bureaucracy doesn't always
look for the most culpable individuals when a complaint is made, just the
most visible and available one. And trust me, India loves
its bureaucracy and over-reactions (Geoff might fill you in some, if you
care to research).

Just for example, you know people can be locked up for years just for
accepting a grant from WMF? (FCRA and all foreign currencies are very
strictly regulated.) How about the example of Bazee.com (read ebay) where
the Indian CEO was arrested for someone else selling something on their
e-marketplace, or how about just a couple of months ago, someone was
arrested for a facebook comment, and the other for liking the said comment.
Now, given that all your bases are covered, who do you think would be the
most available person when a complain is made?

Anyway, if people want to organize, let them. Don't lead them to volunteer
- that defeats the purpose. I would have preferred if another
equally bureaucratic country with a chapter might have been the test bed
for this, but given how prioritized India is in the WMF strategic plan, it
shouldn't be a surprise. Now, I wonder who came up with that.


>
> Since these groups are new, maybe the problem is caused simply by a
> misunderstanding? Let me clarify some points, just in case:
>
> Wikimedia User Groups are official and well defined at
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/**wiki/Wikimedia_User_Groups


They actually aren't official. Bence wrote most of that copying over from
other pages on Meta a few months ago, which were originally edited from the
pages about Chapters. This was still being formulated and maybe it would
have been refined if it was taken on organically. Your usage of it was one
of the first.


>
> MediaWiki Groups are a category of WUG, also official
> https://www.mediawiki.org/**wiki/Groups


I don't know what you mean by official repeatedly? does it mean they are
endorsed by sports team? or they come with matching wrist-bands?


>
> MediaWiki Groups are almost ad-hoc associations, without any legal
> identity and basically zero bureaucracy once the group is accepted.
>

They are in the quasi legal space between Wikipedia groups that have
existed for a decade on Wikipedia and chapters. The odd thing is not a
single Wikipedia group out of those hundreds, maybe thousands, wanted that
recognition yet.


On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 5:53 PM, Quim Gil  wrote:
>
> PS: just in case you are wondering, Erik is fully supportive of MediaWiki
> Groups as they are part of the WMF Engineering team goals [1]. Have no
> doubt that having several of such groups spread in the Indian territory
> will help you having successful hackathons adding up to the Wikimedia &
> MediaWiki penetration in India.


Erik? OMG, OMG! :P

It seems the engineering dept. wants it more than anyone. There is actually
nothing wrong with that, just don't go through this facade of calling it
volunteer led and volunteer run organizations that people have
been clamoring for. It's a trivial point really, who wants it or who
creates it.

Regards
Theo
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad

[Theo10011]

howdy Quim

I'll reply to your earlier post and state my main objection to this before
stopping. I don't really care as much as I might be leading you to believe,
so I should disengage. I care more for the larger picture. But I just want
to point out some minor discrepancies that might be relevant.

On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 7:13 PM, Quim Gil  wrote:

>
> No, 
> https://www.mediawiki.org/**wiki/Groupswere
>  proposed at the MediaWiki community and wikimedia-l, they were
> discussed also with the Affiliations Committee and they were finally
> approved and announced last month.
>

Ah, there are things like history and diffs to look timelines and
contributions up. That page you link to, was actually created a month ago,
by you.[1] You also made the majority, if not the entirety of the edits to
it. :)

I don't know about ChapCom approval but I seem to have a fleeting
recollection of a hasty timeline that was condensed into a month, close to
half of which were holidays here or in the US. In my opinion, ChapCom didnt
have time to do the due diligence, completely vet this and look at
alternatives like the SIG thing in India, which might be considered now.


>
> Then Harsh and other volunteers in Ahmedabad interested in MediaWiki
> decided to take that route, and announced their proposal in several
> MediaWiki and Wikimedia India channels:
>
> https://www.mediawiki.org/**wiki/Groups/Proposals/**Ahmedabad


Yes, 15 days after you created the page.[2] Fast, how volunteers organize
these days, now back in my day. :P


>
>
> Harsh sent the proposal also to this list on Dec 14 (it didn't raise any
> reply until 15 days later, btw)
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/**pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/**
> 2012-December/009013.html
>
>
>  Second, MediaWiki *is* independent and might have nothing to do with
>> Wikimedia. But then again, why are we on a list of Wikimedia asking
>> Wikipedians to join or create the said group?
>>
>
> The MediaWiki community is a piece of the Wikimedia movement that can have
> ramifications out of it, like in the case of people using MediaWiki for
> their own websites.
>

I can quibble over semantics here, point out how new "Mediawiki Community"
is, and how there is a gigantic overlap between the two. How the highest
established userbase in Wikimedia lends itself to the "Mediawiki community"
but I am trying to avoid long explanations on a general topic, when this
case concerns india for now.


> Still, something like a proposal on a new MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad is
> clearly on-topic in this list. If you don't bother, then an option is just
> delete the email and don't bother.  :)
>
>
>
>  To the extent of my
>> knowledge, Mediawiki is a platform, a piece of software, in terms of
>> real world implications it has no existence. Which would then lead the
>> discussion back in to the circle, that went on the tech list about a
>> MediaWiki foundation and an independent identity, because clearly that's
>> the problem we have right now - shortage of committees, and groups and
>> organizations to conflate a bunch of stuff rather than the actual work
>> they are supposed to do.
>>
>
> I agree with you(r irony) here. And precisely because of this MediaWiki
> Groups are designed to facilitate ad-hoc work without any bureaucratic
> overhead. The paradox is that a thread like this is creating overhead (I
> should be doing other things right now, like the rest of people active in
> this discussion). Still I hope it's worth having the discussion once and
> forever. After this proposing and resolving on MediaWiki Groups should be a
> fast process letting focus the teams of volunteers on the actual work.


Please by all means, do those other pressing things. Don't let this concern
you, it's a volunteer led effort so let the volunteers lead. As you mention
above, if you don't bother you can just delete this thread. ;)


>
>  The simplest question is what would this achieve?
>>
>
> The simplest answer is:
>
> - MediaWiki Group X members are empowered to represent the MediaWiki
> communiy in X.
> - For someone interested in MediaWiki + X it will be easier to find the
> right information and contacts to get involved.
>
> There was a discussion about this at wikitech-l, see the thread starting at
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/**pipermail/wikitech-l/2012-**
> December/065333.html
>
> If after reading the thread you have more observations about MediaWiki
> Groups then please share them at wikitech-l.
>
>
>
>  Thematic organizations are being discussed on Meta and if
>> they should use Wikimedia or even Wiki in their name, I suppose some
>> extension would apply to Mediawiki as well.
>>
>
> Well, no. "MediaWiki" with the sunflower logo are different things. But
> also, them

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad

[Dhaval S. Vyas]

That is exactly what I was wondering as well Konarak.
 On 4 Jan 2013 15:15, "Konarak Ratnakar"  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> A local MediaWiki Group is a nice initiative be it in Ahmedabad or
> anywhere else as long as there are enthusiastic volunteers involved. It'll
> be nice to see this group come to life (MediaWiki group Ahmedabad or
> a chapter SIG).
>
> I must say it's quite awkward not seeing any involvement of Harsh, as
> the proposer of this group, in this discussion while he's been sending
> emails to other lists.
>
> Best,
> --
> Konarak Ratnakar
>
>
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>
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad

[Quim Gil]

On 01/03/2013 08:37 AM, Theo10011 wrote:

So, to summarize again, Quim, a staff member, and you, a


No, https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Groups were proposed at the MediaWiki 
community and wikimedia-l, they were discussed also with the 
Affiliations Committee and they were finally approved and announced last 
month.


Then Harsh and other volunteers in Ahmedabad interested in MediaWiki 
decided to take that route, and announced their proposal in several 
MediaWiki and Wikimedia India channels:


https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Groups/Proposals/Ahmedabad

Harsh sent the proposal also to this list on Dec 14 (it didn't raise any 
reply until 15 days later, btw)
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/2012-December/009013.html 





Second, MediaWiki *is* independent and might have nothing to do with
Wikimedia. But then again, why are we on a list of Wikimedia asking
Wikipedians to join or create the said group?


The MediaWiki community is a piece of the Wikimedia movement that can 
have ramifications out of it, like in the case of people using MediaWiki 
for their own websites.


Still, something like a proposal on a new MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad is 
clearly on-topic in this list. If you don't bother, then an option is 
just delete the email and don't bother.  :)




To the extent of my
knowledge, Mediawiki is a platform, a piece of software, in terms of
real world implications it has no existence. Which would then lead the
discussion back in to the circle, that went on the tech list about a
MediaWiki foundation and an independent identity, because clearly that's
the problem we have right now - shortage of committees, and groups and
organizations to conflate a bunch of stuff rather than the actual work
they are supposed to do.


I agree with you(r irony) here. And precisely because of this MediaWiki 
Groups are designed to facilitate ad-hoc work without any bureaucratic 
overhead. The paradox is that a thread like this is creating overhead (I 
should be doing other things right now, like the rest of people active 
in this discussion). Still I hope it's worth having the discussion once 
and forever. After this proposing and resolving on MediaWiki Groups 
should be a fast process letting focus the teams of volunteers on the 
actual work.



The simplest question is what would this achieve?


The simplest answer is:

- MediaWiki Group X members are empowered to represent the MediaWiki 
communiy in X.
- For someone interested in MediaWiki + X it will be easier to find the 
right information and contacts to get involved.


There was a discussion about this at wikitech-l, see the thread starting at
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2012-December/065333.html

If after reading the thread you have more observations about MediaWiki 
Groups then please share them at wikitech-l.




Thematic organizations are being discussed on Meta and if
they should use Wikimedia or even Wiki in their name, I suppose some
extension would apply to Mediawiki as well.


Well, no. "MediaWiki" with the sunflower logo are different things. But 
also, thematic organizations are meant to be heavier, incorporated 
organizations while MediaWiki Groups are lightweight and not 
incorporated. If a MediaWiki group is repeatedly misbehaving the whole 
problem could be (radically) solved by deleting a wiki page and blocking 
users - applying the (radical) problem resolution in the Wikipedia way. 
As soon as you have an incorporated organization things get more tricky.


But we are getting off-topic. If you want to discuss Wikimedia User 
Groups or MediaWiki Groups as such then the right place to do it is in 
their discussion pages or at wikimedia-l / wikitech-l.


--
Quim Gil
Technical Contributor Coordinator @ Wikimedia Foundation
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Qgil

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad

[Quim Gil]

Are we still stuck in this question? It kept me thinking the whole day 
yesterday.


On 01/03/2013 04:35 AM, Srikanth Ramakrishnan wrote:

However, you still haven't answered my question on what benefit a User
Group has over Chapter SIG.


Summarizing, the answer could be:

- The Wikimedia movement is organized around projects with high levels 
of autonomy e.g. MediaWiki or Wikimedia India. For an Indian group 
focused in MediaWiki it makes sense to align first with MediaWiki, then 
with Wikimedia India.


- MediaWiki Groups are official for the Wikimedia movement and the 
MediaWiki community, and all the discussion and documentation is public. 
Wikimedia India Chapter SIGs are still not official, they have been 
discussed internally, they apply to India only.


- MediaWiki Groups are open source user groups, a type of casual 
organization with plenty of references in India and the World. They are 
all about Getting Things Done. Aspects like membership or planning get 
resolved with edits in a wiki page. Affiliation to Wikimedia India or 
any other organization is not required.



But the point that keeps me thinking is why the first response from 
Wikimedia India chapter to a new group of volunteers seems to be 
inquiring and resisting more than congratulating and embracing. When the 
AffCom said they wanted to check with the national chapter I thought it 
was a polite move and a way to make sure than nothing was wrong locally 
in Ahmedabad / Gujarat. I didn't expect a full questioning of MediaWiki 
Groups - or Wikimedia User Groups for that matter.


Since these groups are new, maybe the problem is caused simply by a 
misunderstanding? Let me clarify some points, just in case:


Wikimedia User Groups are official and well defined at
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_User_Groups

MediaWiki Groups are a category of WUG, also official
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Groups

MediaWiki Groups are almost ad-hoc associations, without any legal 
identity and basically zero bureaucracy once the group is accepted.



While the WUG pages don't make any explicit reference to their 
relationship with chapters, MediaWiki Groups do have explicit 
requirements for collaboration with chapters.


From https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Groups :

"You know you need a group when (...) You want to obtain funding from 
the Wikimedia Foundation or a Wikimedia chapter."


"Local MediaWiki groups collaborate with Wikimedia chapters"

"MediaWiki groups can request support from the Wikimedia Foundation and 
chapters in various forms:"


"If cash is needed then the default funding sources are Wikimedia 
chapters and Funds Dissemination Committee."



For all these reasons I really don't see what is the problem. In fact 
the question posed above could be reverted: has Wikimedia India 
considered the benefits of adopting the already formalized Wikimedia 
User Groups and MediaWiki Groups instead of trying to define an Indian 
specific type of SIG?



But going back to MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad, I hope we get to an 
agreement sooner than later so Harsh and other MediaWiki promoters in 
India get out of this uncomfortable position and focus on their local 
activities.


--
Quim Gil
Technical Contributor Coordinator @ Wikimedia Foundation
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Qgil

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad

[Quim Gil]

On 01/03/2013 10:02 AM, Srikanth Ramakrishnan wrote:

Just to let you all know:
Our Executive Manager Sowmyan met Erik some time back and asked if he
needed any help from the chapter. Erik said we could hold quarterly
hackathons in different parts of India.
We are more than happy to do this and would like the Community to
support us.
We are nothing without the community and volunteers.


This is very good!

But this is a separate discussion than MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad, or 
isn't it?


Please open a new thread to set the basics of the first event. If they 
are meant to be organized quarterly you'd better start planning already 
the first one.


PS: just in case you are wondering, Erik is fully supportive of 
MediaWiki Groups as they are part of the WMF Engineering team goals [1]. 
Have no doubt that having several of such groups spread in the Indian 
territory will help you having successful hackathons adding up to the 
Wikimedia & MediaWiki penetration in India.


[1] 
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Engineering/2012-13_Goals#Milestones_by_quarter_17


--
Quim Gil
Technical Contributor Coordinator @ Wikimedia Foundation
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Qgil

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad

[Konarak Ratnakar]

Hi,

A local MediaWiki Group is a nice initiative be it in Ahmedabad or anywhere
else as long as there are enthusiastic volunteers involved. It'll be nice
to see this group come to life (MediaWiki group Ahmedabad or a chapter SIG).

I must say it's quite awkward not seeing any involvement of Harsh, as
the proposer of this group, in this discussion while he's been sending
emails to other lists.

Best,
-- 
Konarak Ratnakar
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad

[Srikanth Ramakrishnan]

Just to let you all know:
Our Executive Manager Sowmyan met Erik some time back and asked if he
needed any help from the chapter. Erik said we could hold quarterly
hackathons in different parts of India.
We are more than happy to do this and would like the Community to support
us.
We are nothing without the community and volunteers.


On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 10:29 PM, Pradeep Mohandas wrote:

> hi,
>
> Frankly, I don't thing there should be any objections on the formation of
> any groups whether by the Chapter or by individual members in the community
> or by Staff. This just provides people with a variety of options to join
> and participate. The groups formed with reference to the Chapter or under
> WMF need to be formed under procedures laid down under each.
>
> If the chapter wishes to form the group, it can do so. If an individual
> wants to start a MediaWiki group can be left to the individual and the
> processes (once finalised, if it is not?) are followed. I guess the
> choice of choosing which group an individual wants to be belong to can be
> decided best by the individual.
>
> Eventually, either all the groups will die out or people will join the
> more active groups.
>
> just my two cents worth,
> Pradeep
>
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>


-- 
Srikanth Ramakrishnan
Member of the Executive Committee
Wikimedia Chapter [India]
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad

[Pradeep Mohandas]

hi,

Frankly, I don't thing there should be any objections on the formation of any 
groups whether by the Chapter or by individual members in the community or by 
Staff. This just provides people with a variety of options to join and 
participate. The groups formed with reference to the Chapter or under WMF need 
to be formed under procedures laid down under each. 


If the chapter wishes to form the group, it can do so. If an individual wants 
to start a MediaWiki group can be left to the individual and the processes 
(once finalised, if it is not?) are followed. I guess the choice of choosing 
which group an individual wants to be belong to can be decided best by the 
individual. 


Eventually, either all the groups will die out or people will join the more 
active groups. 


just my two cents worth,
Pradeep
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad

[Noopur]

Theo, 

I am not sure where this discussion is going to. Srikanth had specific 
questions on why the MediaWiki user group and why not a technical SIG instead. 
At least that's what I gather from his mail. 
However you seem to be asking why a MediaWiki user group at all. For this you 
will need to rewind to previous mailing list threads where community members, 
oblivious to any possibility of such MediaWiki groups had expressed the desire 
to have some kind of a technical collaborative. In fact on this thread itself, 
I remember a response on the chapter list informing people whom this could 
interest. The mailing list objections don't quite make sense to me. Nor do the 
arguments about dead groups. That is the nature of volunteer communities 
perhaps. People were informed about this proposal on all lists precisely due to 
te absence of an existing tech list. 
I personally don't see why there needs to be any justification to start a 
collaborative group as long as it is not pulling on precious resources. If 
enthusiastic volunteers of Ahmedabad wish to call themselves MediaWiki group 
Ahmedabad and have already localized gadgets and think that formalizing would 
attract more like minded local users, I don't see any harm. 

Did you see the mini hackathon post and the announcement for all interested 
members to have a chat with Sumana? Did you also see sucheta and pratik's 
initiatives in the same vein? Wouldn't it be unfair to term this as an absolute 
staff initiative and undermine their effort? 

Best, 
Noopur 


On Jan 3, 2013, at 10:07 PM, Theo10011  wrote:

> Hi Yuvi
> 
> On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 9:37 PM, Yuvi Panda  wrote:
>> This happened on IRC over a few hours, between me, quim and harsh. Most of 
>> the conversation was quim convincing me that a mediawiki-india list would be 
>> a much better Idea than a MediaWiki India User Group (which he succeeded 
>> in), and Harsh volunteering to start the Ahmedabad one. The logging bot has 
>> been wonky, so no logs. 
> 
> So, to summarize again, Quim, a staff member, and you, a contractor/staff 
> member had a discussion with harsh - I don't know harsh so please forgo any 
> mistaken assumption on my part, had a discussion on IRC, and between the 
> three, it was decided, if a group would be a better option to a list. 
> Unfortunately, there are no logs to even prove the above discussion, which 
> would brig me to reiterate what I said earlier, now confirmed with the 
> explanation above. For the time being, I stand by what I said.
>  
>> 
>> As for 'why User Groups, why not a SIG' - the User Group idea is neither 
>> unique nor novel - it is a very well understood concept. Linux User Groups, 
>> Python User Groups, Ruby User Groups, Java User Groups, etc abound on 
>> per-city levels. This is just another user group for a piece of open source 
>> software. MediaWiki does not run just Wikipedia, but is also (IIRC) the most 
>> popular software used for standalone wikis. Plenty of projects that use 
>> MediaWiki have nothing to do with the Wikimedia movement (An experiment with 
>> using Semantic MediaWiki for Public Transit routing a bunch of us tried a 
>> few years ago, the w3c wiki (w3.org/wiki), lots of internal company's 
>> documentation wikis, lots of open source software wikis, etc). 
> 
> Hmm I have no idea about these user groups, or what levels of formalization 
> they do have, so I'll take your word for it. What I do know is the concept of 
> Wikimedia User groups is a new territory for us, the first group using this 
> approach is being led by the staff, as I said earlier. 
> 
> Second, MediaWiki *is* independent and might have nothing to do with 
> Wikimedia. But then again, why are we on a list of Wikimedia asking 
> Wikipedians to join or create the said group? To the extent of my knowledge, 
> Mediawiki is a platform, a piece of software, in terms of real world 
> implications it has no existence. Which would then lead the discussion back 
> in to the circle, that went on the tech list about a MediaWiki foundation and 
> an independent identity, because clearly that's the problem we have right now 
> - shortage of committees, and groups and organizations to conflate a bunch of 
> stuff rather than the actual work they are supposed to do.  
> 
> The simplest question is what would this achieve? Let's say there is a group 
> or a list, what then? would the work materialize that so far has not? or 
> would we be left with dead organizations in a year or two that will continue 
> to carry the Wikimedia or Mediawiki name till someone realizes the exposure 
> of proliferating these. I can point you to 2 dozen dead lists with no 
> activities, in order to get wider participation they forward important 
> announcements to the major lists like this, so, if you end up forwarding to 
> the India list most of the times, what is the separate list achieving. It's 
> the same people, perhaps more so on the older lists. 
>  
>> 
>> And 'why formalize their a

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad

[Quim Gil]

Hi Theo, I will reply your questions in detail later.

I just want to make sure that anybody engaging in this discussion has 
read https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Groups and understands what a 
MediaWiki Group is. The motivations, process, etc is also explained 
there. If there is something there you don't understand or you think 
it's wrong let's discuss.


About the proposals, check

https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Groups/Proposals

Yes, those of us being MediaWiki community members with full time 
dedication (aka WMF employees) are currently pushing many of the first 
proposals. It makes sense: we can dedicate more time and we are anyway 
leading other MediaWiki activities that would benefit from such groups.


Then again MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad is NOT one of these cases. Harsh is 
a pure MediaWiki volunteer.


https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Groups/Proposals/M%C3%A9xico is another 
example of a proposal pushed entirely by volunteers with no connection 
to the WMF. In their case Wikimedia Mexico explicitly supports the 
creation of the group.


--
Quim Gil
Technical Contributor Coordinator @ Wikimedia Foundation
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Qgil

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad

[Theo10011]

Hi Yuvi

On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 9:37 PM, Yuvi Panda  wrote:

> This happened on IRC over a few hours, between me, quim and harsh. Most of
> the conversation was quim convincing me that a mediawiki-india list would
> be a much better Idea than a MediaWiki India User Group (which he succeeded
> in), and Harsh volunteering to start the Ahmedabad one. The logging bot has
> been wonky, so no logs.
>

So, to summarize again, Quim, a staff member, and you, a contractor/staff
member had a discussion with harsh - I don't know harsh so please forgo any
mistaken assumption on my part, had a discussion on IRC, and between the
three, it was decided, if a group would be a better option to a list.
Unfortunately, there are no logs to even prove the above discussion, which
would brig me to reiterate what I said earlier, now confirmed with the
explanation above. For the time being, I stand by what I said.


>
> As for 'why User Groups, why not a SIG' - the User Group idea is neither
> unique nor novel - it is a very well understood concept. Linux User Groups,
> Python User Groups, Ruby User Groups, Java User Groups, etc abound on
> per-city levels. This is just another user group for a piece of open source
> software. MediaWiki does not run just Wikipedia, but is also (IIRC) the
> most popular software used for standalone wikis. Plenty of projects that
> use MediaWiki have nothing to do with the Wikimedia movement (An experiment
> with using Semantic MediaWiki for Public Transit routing a bunch of us
> tried a few years ago, the w3c wiki (w3.org/wiki), lots of internal
> company's documentation wikis, lots of open source software wikis, etc).
>

Hmm I have no idea about these user groups, or what levels of formalization
they do have, so I'll take your word for it. What I do know is the concept
of Wikimedia User groups is a new territory for us, the first group using
this approach is being led by the staff, as I said earlier.

Second, MediaWiki *is* independent and might have nothing to do with
Wikimedia. But then again, why are we on a list of Wikimedia asking
Wikipedians to join or create the said group? To the extent of my
knowledge, Mediawiki is a platform, a piece of software, in terms of real
world implications it has no existence. Which would then lead the
discussion back in to the circle, that went on the tech list about a
MediaWiki foundation and an independent identity, because clearly that's
the problem we have right now - shortage of committees, and groups and
organizations to conflate a bunch of stuff rather than the actual work they
are supposed to do.

The simplest question is what would this achieve? Let's say there is a
group or a list, what then? would the work materialize that so far has not?
or would we be left with dead organizations in a year or two that will
continue to carry the Wikimedia or Mediawiki name till someone realizes the
exposure of proliferating these. I can point you to 2 dozen dead lists with
no activities, in order to get wider participation they forward important
announcements to the major lists like this, so, if you end up forwarding to
the India list most of the times, what is the separate list achieving. It's
the same people, perhaps more so on the older lists.


>
> And 'why formalize their affiliation'? IIRC you need to go through the
> process to obtain the right to use 'MediaWiki' in your group's title. That
> is all (from my perspective, at least).
>

Actually, the discussion about demarcating the rights to use a term is
still ongoing. Thematic organizations are being discussed on Meta and if
they should use Wikimedia or even Wiki in their name, I suppose some
extension would apply to Mediawiki as well. I hope I don't need to point
out that the 2 words are the same in both organizations, 'Media' and 'Wiki'.

Regards
Theo
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad

[Yuvi Panda]

On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 8:21 PM, Theo10011  wrote:

> Could you provide some URL to point to how this idea of groups came upon
> for India. I only saw the staff leading the way for this instead of this
> coming about organically.
>

This happened on IRC over a few hours, between me, quim and harsh. Most of
the conversation was quim convincing me that a mediawiki-india list would
be a much better Idea than a MediaWiki India User Group (which he succeeded
in), and Harsh volunteering to start the Ahmedabad one. The logging bot has
been wonky, so no logs.

As for 'why User Groups, why not a SIG' - the User Group idea is neither
unique nor novel - it is a very well understood concept. Linux User Groups,
Python User Groups, Ruby User Groups, Java User Groups, etc abound on
per-city levels. This is just another user group for a piece of open source
software. MediaWiki does not run just Wikipedia, but is also (IIRC) the
most popular software used for standalone wikis. Plenty of projects that
use MediaWiki have nothing to do with the Wikimedia movement (An experiment
with using Semantic MediaWiki for Public Transit routing a bunch of us
tried a few years ago, the w3c wiki (w3.org/wiki), lots of internal
company's documentation wikis, lots of open source software wikis, etc).

And 'why formalize their affiliation'? IIRC you need to go through the
process to obtain the right to use 'MediaWiki' in your group's title. That
is all (from my perspective, at least).

-- 
Yuvi Panda T
http://yuvi.in/blog
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad

[samkit...@gmail.com]

Truly said Quim and Noopur. The idea and motivation behind mediawiki 
group is to encourage open source activities, particularly about 
MediaWiki. At the same time, it also brings to gather people who are 
working and can work in this perspective. So every wikimedian should 
welcome this .


Regards,
Samkit
On 03-Jan-13 8:08 PM, Quim Gil wrote:

Hi,

On 01/03/2013 05:11 AM, Srikanth Ramakrishnan wrote:

Hi,
I never mentioned anything about being part of the chapter.
The chapter was set up to promote the movement in India and it has done
so even in cases where a person/participant was NOT a part of the 
chapter..

I merely asked what benefit the Group recieves by taking the User Group
route over the Chapter SIG route.


Harsh,
What are your thoughts on the Chapter-SIG model.


Can you describe this Chapter SIG route / model, or point to a URL 
explaining it? The only thing I could find is 
http://wiki.wikimedia.in/City_and_Language_SIG_subcommittee_chair but 
nothing about process or even group activities can be found there.


In the meantime, let me add a bit more to Noopur's argument and my 
previous reply.


The main motivation of MediaWiki groups is unsurprisingly 
http://mediawiki.org - the open source software and its community 
around. They can be created in Ahmedabad, San Francisco, Mexico City, 
Berlin or wherever, but they share common needs, common activities, 
common materials and so on.


MediaWiki Groups were born at mediawiki.org because they were needed 
to bring this open source community to the physical space. In a formal 
sense they are just wiki pages with registered users signing up for 
them. No non-profit creation, no formal membership... The whole 
identity is based purely on activities organized.


It was a coincidence that the Wikimedia movement was about to approve 
the User Groups while MediaWiki Groups were defined. We discussed with 
the AffCom and we fine tuned the MediaWiki Groups requirements and 
process in order to make them Wikimedia User Groups as well.


Then Harsh, Yuvi and also Sucheta showed up proposing a MediaWiki 
Group India. At the end we decided that MediaWiki Groups need to be 
strictly local, and that MediaWiki activities at a national level 
should be better organized with the chapters, since they have already 
the infrastructure for that. Then Harsh evolved the proposal to 
MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad, Sucheta is already trying to gather 
critical mass for a MediaWiki Group Kolkata, etc.


That's it. You can still argue that such organizations could be 
handled a part of Wikimedia India SIGs, and that their promoters 
wouldn't be required to be chapter members. I don't even disagree with 
the idea, but in the right sequence of events: the motivation of these 
groups is mediawiki.org and therefore good alignment and coordination 
within the MediaWiki community is what matters most. I have no doubt 
that strong MediaWiki Groups will contribute to the strength of the 
Wikimedia community and their related chapters.





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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad

[Theo10011]

On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 8:08 PM, Quim Gil  wrote:

> Can you describe this Chapter SIG route / model, or point to a URL
> explaining it? The only thing I could find is
> http://wiki.wikimedia.in/City_**and_Language_SIG_subcommittee_**chairbut
>  nothing about process or even group activities can be found there.
>
> In the meantime, let me add a bit more to Noopur's argument and my
> previous reply.
>
> The main motivation of MediaWiki groups is unsurprisingly
> http://mediawiki.org - the open source software and its community around.
> They can be created in Ahmedabad, San Francisco, Mexico City, Berlin or
> wherever, but they share common needs, common activities, common materials
> and so on.
>

It seems it's creation is being facilitated by staff members rather than
anyone doing the actual work. I don't know if that's a way of circumventing
other entities and creating a direct relationship model or just because we
need more things carrying Wikimedia or Mediawiki names and risk further
exposure.


>
> MediaWiki Groups were born at mediawiki.org because they were needed to
> bring this open source community to the physical space. In a formal sense
> they are just wiki pages with registered users signing up for them. No
> non-profit creation, no formal membership... The whole identity is based
> purely on activities organized.
>

Could you provide some URL to point to how this idea of groups came upon
for India. I only saw the staff leading the way for this instead of this
coming about organically.


> It was a coincidence that the Wikimedia movement was about to approve the
> User Groups while MediaWiki Groups were defined. We discussed with the
> AffCom and we fine tuned the MediaWiki Groups requirements and process in
> order to make them Wikimedia User Groups as well.
>

Wikimedia Movement approved User groups? hmm I must have missed that. From
my cursory search, I couldn't find the idea of of Mediawiki Groups
predating User Groups, which still aren't very fleshed out.


>
> Then Harsh, Yuvi and also Sucheta showed up proposing a MediaWiki Group
> India. At the end we decided that MediaWiki Groups need to be strictly
> local, and that MediaWiki activities at a national level should be better
> organized with the chapters, since they have already the infrastructure for
> that. Then Harsh evolved the proposal to MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad, Sucheta
> is already trying to gather critical mass for a MediaWiki Group Kolkata,
> etc.
>
> That's it. You can still argue that such organizations could be handled a
> part of Wikimedia India SIGs, and that their promoters wouldn't be required
> to be chapter members. I don't even disagree with the idea, but in the
> right sequence of events: the motivation of these groups is mediawiki.organd 
> therefore good alignment and coordination within the MediaWiki
> community is what matters most. I have no doubt that strong MediaWiki
> Groups will contribute to the strength of the Wikimedia community and their
> related chapters.


I don't understand the pressing need to formalize their affiliation? The
development can go on without groups, committees. I recall the staff
organizing several hackathons and meetings in India in relation to this.
Was there some aspect of that collaboration being held back by an informal
relation model?

Regards
Theo
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad

[Quim Gil]

Hi,

On 01/03/2013 05:11 AM, Srikanth Ramakrishnan wrote:

Hi,
I never mentioned anything about being part of the chapter.
The chapter was set up to promote the movement in India and it has done
so even in cases where a person/participant was NOT a part of the chapter..
I merely asked what benefit the Group recieves by taking the User Group
route over the Chapter SIG route.


Harsh,
What are your thoughts on the Chapter-SIG model.


Can you describe this Chapter SIG route / model, or point to a URL 
explaining it? The only thing I could find is 
http://wiki.wikimedia.in/City_and_Language_SIG_subcommittee_chair but 
nothing about process or even group activities can be found there.


In the meantime, let me add a bit more to Noopur's argument and my 
previous reply.


The main motivation of MediaWiki groups is unsurprisingly 
http://mediawiki.org - the open source software and its community 
around. They can be created in Ahmedabad, San Francisco, Mexico City, 
Berlin or wherever, but they share common needs, common activities, 
common materials and so on.


MediaWiki Groups were born at mediawiki.org because they were needed to 
bring this open source community to the physical space. In a formal 
sense they are just wiki pages with registered users signing up for 
them. No non-profit creation, no formal membership... The whole identity 
is based purely on activities organized.


It was a coincidence that the Wikimedia movement was about to approve 
the User Groups while MediaWiki Groups were defined. We discussed with 
the AffCom and we fine tuned the MediaWiki Groups requirements and 
process in order to make them Wikimedia User Groups as well.


Then Harsh, Yuvi and also Sucheta showed up proposing a MediaWiki Group 
India. At the end we decided that MediaWiki Groups need to be strictly 
local, and that MediaWiki activities at a national level should be 
better organized with the chapters, since they have already the 
infrastructure for that. Then Harsh evolved the proposal to MediaWiki 
Group Ahmedabad, Sucheta is already trying to gather critical mass for a 
MediaWiki Group Kolkata, etc.


That's it. You can still argue that such organizations could be handled 
a part of Wikimedia India SIGs, and that their promoters wouldn't be 
required to be chapter members. I don't even disagree with the idea, but 
in the right sequence of events: the motivation of these groups is 
mediawiki.org and therefore good alignment and coordination within the 
MediaWiki community is what matters most. I have no doubt that strong 
MediaWiki Groups will contribute to the strength of the Wikimedia 
community and their related chapters.


--
Quim Gil
Technical Contributor Coordinator @ Wikimedia Foundation
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Qgil

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad

[Theo10011]

On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 6:25 PM, Noopur  wrote:

> The same question could be asked of any collective with a Wikipedia
> related goal. However, it could also be asked if in the Wikiverse (which
> supremely thrives on the value of collaborative work), it is inappropriate
> or redundant to form new collaboratives (like MediaWiki group or other
> specific focus groups) that are outside the purview of chapters or the
> Foundation for that matter. My hunch is that the formation of such any
> formal/informal group of this nature is welcome as long as it does not
> enter into trademark conflicts with existing entities. However, it beats me
> why there would be a need to consolidate a new collective within a chapter
> if there is no apparent need indicated by the group itself.
>

Errr...this seems at odd what I have been following. If I were to summarize
what you are stating above, is that it's inappropriate and redundant to
form Mediawiki groups and other focused groups. You opinion is, as long as
it doesn't include trademark usage, who cares? which by the way would be
hard to justify since to have any sort of formal affiliation would have to
carry Wikimedia or Mediawiki in their title, and show their relationship to
have any legitimacy, which preserves the essence of representation of a
global brand, and through that, exposure to the existing entities using the
trademark , but I digress.


> I am just wondering whether the ideal approach would be to propose the
> nature of support that the chapter can extend in stead of wondering why the
> group has not been merged or started by/within chapter members. This would
> probably also mislead enthusiastic Indian Wikipedians who are not chapter
> members to understand that they must streamline all their activities with
> existing formal entities.
>


Regards
Theo


BTW will you be Cc'ing Quim on every response? :P
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad

[Srikanth Ramakrishnan]

Hi,
I never mentioned anything about being part of the chapter.
The chapter was set up to promote the movement in India and it has done so
even in cases where a person/participant was NOT a part of the chapter..
I merely asked what benefit the Group recieves by taking the User Group
route over the Chapter SIG route.


Harsh,
What are your thoughts on the Chapter-SIG model.




On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 6:25 PM, Noopur  wrote:

> The same question could be asked of any collective with a Wikipedia
> related goal. However, it could also be asked if in the Wikiverse (which
> supremely thrives on the value of collaborative work), it is inappropriate
> or redundant to form new collaboratives (like MediaWiki group or other
> specific focus groups) that are outside the purview of chapters or the
> Foundation for that matter. My hunch is that the formation of such any
> formal/informal group of this nature is welcome as long as it does not
> enter into trademark conflicts with existing entities. However, it beats me
> why there would be a need to consolidate a new collective within a chapter
> if there is no apparent need indicated by the group itself.
>
> I am just wondering whether the ideal approach would be to propose the
> nature of support that the chapter can extend in stead of wondering why the
> group has not been merged or started by/within chapter members. This would
> probably also mislead enthusiastic Indian Wikipedians who are not chapter
> members to understand that they must streamline all their activities with
> existing formal entities.
>
> Best,
> Noopur
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 6:05 PM, Srikanth Ramakrishnan <
> srik.r...@wikimedia.in> wrote:
>
>> Noopur,
>> Thank you for your response,
>> However, you still haven't answered my question on what benefit a User
>> Group has over Chapter SIG.
>> The Chapter was set up to help promote and streamline Wikimedia related
>> activities in India.
>> We have been asked by affcom and your response would greatly help us
>> understand why direct affiliation is really necessary.
>> It is more important to see what the long term benefits of this would be
>> rather than to just create it because the option exists.
>> --
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 5:46 PM, Noopur  wrote:
>>
>>> Hey Srikanth,
>>>
>>> Just weighing in since I also happen to be supporting this process.
>>> Perhaps a little background is necessary to know why MediaWiki groups have
>>> been started as an initiative. Also copying Quim since he might be able to
>>> shed more light on this issue. As I understand from the proposal page, this
>>> is a part of the new direction taken by the Foundation since the "narrowed
>>> focus..." It was suggested that more impetus be given to help build and
>>> support technical volunteer groups just like all cities and countries have
>>> their Wikipedia, Commons and other communities of interested volunteers.
>>> I am also witness to an IRC conversation where possibilities of setting
>>> up local groups versus national were considered. As the highlighted in the
>>> discussion, I believe that it would be best for volunteers to work in local
>>> proximal groups (like MediaWiki group - Ahmedabad for instance) also with a
>>> language focus possibly (like several gadgets have been added to Gujarati
>>> Wikipedia as a run up to the group and so on). I believe the MediaWiki
>>> India mailing list which hopes to link up communities across the country is
>>> up and running now. As far as I understand forming specific interest groups
>>> doesn't require a formal identity or does not encroach upon other parallel
>>> entities' activities or privileges.
>>>
>>> Just trying to fill the gaps since you might not have the background on
>>> MediaWiki groups conversations. Maybe Quim can correct me if I a mistaken.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Noopur
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 5:24 PM, Srikanth Ramakrishnan <
>>> srik.r...@wikimedia.in> wrote:
>>>
 Hi Harsh,
 I have a few questions.
 Was there any specific reason to go for a Separate MW Group? Is it due
 to legal/trademark issues or funding?
 I'm sure that those two could be sorted if it were taken up by the
 Chapter similar to an SIG model.



 On Fri, Dec 14, 2012 at 3:08 PM, Harsh Kothari <
 harshkothari...@gmail.com> wrote:

> *Dear friends,
>
> This is to inform you all about the creation of the first MediaWiki
> group in India. For the past several days, I’ve been speaking to Quim Gil,
> Sumana and Yuvi Panda. I was informed about the setting up of local groups
> in different countries for technical contributors. With encouragement from
> all of them and with help from Noopur I submitted a proposal for the
> formation of MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad. This proposal has been endorsed by
> 7 people so far.
>
> For those who might be interested in setting up similar groups, I
> think a Wikitech mailing list for India is being set up a

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad

[Noopur]

The same question could be asked of any collective with a Wikipedia related
goal. However, it could also be asked if in the Wikiverse (which supremely
thrives on the value of collaborative work), it is inappropriate or
redundant to form new collaboratives (like MediaWiki group or other
specific focus groups) that are outside the purview of chapters or the
Foundation for that matter. My hunch is that the formation of such any
formal/informal group of this nature is welcome as long as it does not
enter into trademark conflicts with existing entities. However, it beats me
why there would be a need to consolidate a new collective within a chapter
if there is no apparent need indicated by the group itself.

I am just wondering whether the ideal approach would be to propose the
nature of support that the chapter can extend in stead of wondering why the
group has not been merged or started by/within chapter members. This would
probably also mislead enthusiastic Indian Wikipedians who are not chapter
members to understand that they must streamline all their activities with
existing formal entities.

Best,
Noopur


On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 6:05 PM, Srikanth Ramakrishnan <
srik.r...@wikimedia.in> wrote:

> Noopur,
> Thank you for your response,
> However, you still haven't answered my question on what benefit a User
> Group has over Chapter SIG.
> The Chapter was set up to help promote and streamline Wikimedia related
> activities in India.
> We have been asked by affcom and your response would greatly help us
> understand why direct affiliation is really necessary.
> It is more important to see what the long term benefits of this would be
> rather than to just create it because the option exists.
> --
>
>
>
> On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 5:46 PM, Noopur  wrote:
>
>> Hey Srikanth,
>>
>> Just weighing in since I also happen to be supporting this process.
>> Perhaps a little background is necessary to know why MediaWiki groups have
>> been started as an initiative. Also copying Quim since he might be able to
>> shed more light on this issue. As I understand from the proposal page, this
>> is a part of the new direction taken by the Foundation since the "narrowed
>> focus..." It was suggested that more impetus be given to help build and
>> support technical volunteer groups just like all cities and countries have
>> their Wikipedia, Commons and other communities of interested volunteers.
>> I am also witness to an IRC conversation where possibilities of setting
>> up local groups versus national were considered. As the highlighted in the
>> discussion, I believe that it would be best for volunteers to work in local
>> proximal groups (like MediaWiki group - Ahmedabad for instance) also with a
>> language focus possibly (like several gadgets have been added to Gujarati
>> Wikipedia as a run up to the group and so on). I believe the MediaWiki
>> India mailing list which hopes to link up communities across the country is
>> up and running now. As far as I understand forming specific interest groups
>> doesn't require a formal identity or does not encroach upon other parallel
>> entities' activities or privileges.
>>
>> Just trying to fill the gaps since you might not have the background on
>> MediaWiki groups conversations. Maybe Quim can correct me if I a mistaken.
>>
>> Best,
>> Noopur
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 5:24 PM, Srikanth Ramakrishnan <
>> srik.r...@wikimedia.in> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Harsh,
>>> I have a few questions.
>>> Was there any specific reason to go for a Separate MW Group? Is it due
>>> to legal/trademark issues or funding?
>>> I'm sure that those two could be sorted if it were taken up by the
>>> Chapter similar to an SIG model.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Dec 14, 2012 at 3:08 PM, Harsh Kothari <
>>> harshkothari...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
 *Dear friends,

 This is to inform you all about the creation of the first MediaWiki
 group in India. For the past several days, I’ve been speaking to Quim Gil,
 Sumana and Yuvi Panda. I was informed about the setting up of local groups
 in different countries for technical contributors. With encouragement from
 all of them and with help from Noopur I submitted a proposal for the
 formation of MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad. This proposal has been endorsed by
 7 people so far.

 For those who might be interested in setting up similar groups, I think
 a Wikitech mailing list for India is being set up and personally, I would
 be happy to help you write a proposal for your community. I think it’s a
 great idea because with the help of this technical group we intend to make
 good technical infrastructure and editing environment for Gujarati
 Wikipedia easier to contribute to.

 I have already ported HotCat and Popups(on the way) on Gujarati
 Wikipedia. Please have a look at the areas we want to collaborate on:

 Areas of collaboration:

- Localize Gadgets for Gujarati Wikipedia and Wikisourc

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad

[Srikanth Ramakrishnan]

Noopur,
Thank you for your response,
However, you still haven't answered my question on what benefit a User
Group has over Chapter SIG.
The Chapter was set up to help promote and streamline Wikimedia related
activities in India.
We have been asked by affcom and your response would greatly help us
understand why direct affiliation is really necessary.
It is more important to see what the long term benefits of this would be
rather than to just create it because the option exists.
--



On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 5:46 PM, Noopur  wrote:

> Hey Srikanth,
>
> Just weighing in since I also happen to be supporting this process.
> Perhaps a little background is necessary to know why MediaWiki groups have
> been started as an initiative. Also copying Quim since he might be able to
> shed more light on this issue. As I understand from the proposal page, this
> is a part of the new direction taken by the Foundation since the "narrowed
> focus..." It was suggested that more impetus be given to help build and
> support technical volunteer groups just like all cities and countries have
> their Wikipedia, Commons and other communities of interested volunteers.
> I am also witness to an IRC conversation where possibilities of setting up
> local groups versus national were considered. As the highlighted in the
> discussion, I believe that it would be best for volunteers to work in local
> proximal groups (like MediaWiki group - Ahmedabad for instance) also with a
> language focus possibly (like several gadgets have been added to Gujarati
> Wikipedia as a run up to the group and so on). I believe the MediaWiki
> India mailing list which hopes to link up communities across the country is
> up and running now. As far as I understand forming specific interest groups
> doesn't require a formal identity or does not encroach upon other parallel
> entities' activities or privileges.
>
> Just trying to fill the gaps since you might not have the background on
> MediaWiki groups conversations. Maybe Quim can correct me if I a mistaken.
>
> Best,
> Noopur
>
>
> On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 5:24 PM, Srikanth Ramakrishnan <
> srik.r...@wikimedia.in> wrote:
>
>> Hi Harsh,
>> I have a few questions.
>> Was there any specific reason to go for a Separate MW Group? Is it due to
>> legal/trademark issues or funding?
>> I'm sure that those two could be sorted if it were taken up by the
>> Chapter similar to an SIG model.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 14, 2012 at 3:08 PM, Harsh Kothari > > wrote:
>>
>>> *Dear friends,
>>>
>>> This is to inform you all about the creation of the first MediaWiki
>>> group in India. For the past several days, I’ve been speaking to Quim Gil,
>>> Sumana and Yuvi Panda. I was informed about the setting up of local groups
>>> in different countries for technical contributors. With encouragement from
>>> all of them and with help from Noopur I submitted a proposal for the
>>> formation of MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad. This proposal has been endorsed by
>>> 7 people so far.
>>>
>>> For those who might be interested in setting up similar groups, I think
>>> a Wikitech mailing list for India is being set up and personally, I would
>>> be happy to help you write a proposal for your community. I think it’s a
>>> great idea because with the help of this technical group we intend to make
>>> good technical infrastructure and editing environment for Gujarati
>>> Wikipedia easier to contribute to.
>>>
>>> I have already ported HotCat and Popups(on the way) on Gujarati
>>> Wikipedia. Please have a look at the areas we want to collaborate on:
>>>
>>> Areas of collaboration:
>>>
>>>- Localize Gadgets for Gujarati Wikipedia and Wikisource
>>>- Create New Gadgets and extensions
>>>- Bug solving for Gujarati Wikipedia and WikiSource and also other
>>>MediaWiki related Bug solving for all Indian languages
>>>- Translate into Gujarati Language, i.e http://translatewiki.net/
>>>- Wikidata
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You can read the proposal here:
>>> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Groups/Proposals/Ahmedabad
>>>
>>> Your endorsements, improvements and feedback are welcome at the wiki
>>> page. Thank you!
>>>
>>> Harsh Kothari
>>>
>>> PS: see also http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Groups/Proposals
>>>
>>> *
>>>  ---
>>> Harsh Kothari
>>> Research Fellow,
>>> Physical Research Laboratory(PRL).
>>> Ahmedabad.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
>>> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Srikanth Ramakrishnan
>> Member of the Executive Committee
>> Wikimedia Chapter [India]
>>
>>
>> ___
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>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
>>
>>

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad

[Noopur]

Hey Srikanth,

Just weighing in since I also happen to be supporting this process. Perhaps
a little background is necessary to know why MediaWiki groups have been
started as an initiative. Also copying Quim since he might be able to shed
more light on this issue. As I understand from the proposal page, this is a
part of the new direction taken by the Foundation since the "narrowed
focus..." It was suggested that more impetus be given to help build and
support technical volunteer groups just like all cities and countries have
their Wikipedia, Commons and other communities of interested volunteers.
I am also witness to an IRC conversation where possibilities of setting up
local groups versus national were considered. As the highlighted in the
discussion, I believe that it would be best for volunteers to work in local
proximal groups (like MediaWiki group - Ahmedabad for instance) also with a
language focus possibly (like several gadgets have been added to Gujarati
Wikipedia as a run up to the group and so on). I believe the MediaWiki
India mailing list which hopes to link up communities across the country is
up and running now. As far as I understand forming specific interest groups
doesn't require a formal identity or does not encroach upon other parallel
entities' activities or privileges.

Just trying to fill the gaps since you might not have the background on
MediaWiki groups conversations. Maybe Quim can correct me if I a mistaken.

Best,
Noopur


On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 5:24 PM, Srikanth Ramakrishnan <
srik.r...@wikimedia.in> wrote:

> Hi Harsh,
> I have a few questions.
> Was there any specific reason to go for a Separate MW Group? Is it due to
> legal/trademark issues or funding?
> I'm sure that those two could be sorted if it were taken up by the Chapter
> similar to an SIG model.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 14, 2012 at 3:08 PM, Harsh Kothari 
> wrote:
>
>> *Dear friends,
>>
>> This is to inform you all about the creation of the first MediaWiki group
>> in India. For the past several days, I’ve been speaking to Quim Gil, Sumana
>> and Yuvi Panda. I was informed about the setting up of local groups in
>> different countries for technical contributors. With encouragement from all
>> of them and with help from Noopur I submitted a proposal for the formation
>> of MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad. This proposal has been endorsed by 7 people
>> so far.
>>
>> For those who might be interested in setting up similar groups, I think a
>> Wikitech mailing list for India is being set up and personally, I would be
>> happy to help you write a proposal for your community. I think it’s a great
>> idea because with the help of this technical group we intend to make good
>> technical infrastructure and editing environment for Gujarati Wikipedia
>> easier to contribute to.
>>
>> I have already ported HotCat and Popups(on the way) on Gujarati
>> Wikipedia. Please have a look at the areas we want to collaborate on:
>>
>> Areas of collaboration:
>>
>>- Localize Gadgets for Gujarati Wikipedia and Wikisource
>>- Create New Gadgets and extensions
>>- Bug solving for Gujarati Wikipedia and WikiSource and also other
>>MediaWiki related Bug solving for all Indian languages
>>- Translate into Gujarati Language, i.e http://translatewiki.net/
>>- Wikidata
>>
>>
>>
>> You can read the proposal here:
>> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Groups/Proposals/Ahmedabad
>>
>> Your endorsements, improvements and feedback are welcome at the wiki
>> page. Thank you!
>>
>> Harsh Kothari
>>
>> PS: see also http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Groups/Proposals
>>
>> *
>>  ---
>> Harsh Kothari
>> Research Fellow,
>> Physical Research Laboratory(PRL).
>> Ahmedabad.
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
>> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Srikanth Ramakrishnan
> Member of the Executive Committee
> Wikimedia Chapter [India]
>
>
> ___
> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
>
>


-- 
Noopur Raval
Student
Arts and Aesthetics
Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi
Ph: 9650567690
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad

[Srikanth Ramakrishnan]

Hi Harsh,
I have a few questions.
Was there any specific reason to go for a Separate MW Group? Is it due to
legal/trademark issues or funding?
I'm sure that those two could be sorted if it were taken up by the Chapter
similar to an SIG model.



On Fri, Dec 14, 2012 at 3:08 PM, Harsh Kothari wrote:

> *Dear friends,
>
> This is to inform you all about the creation of the first MediaWiki group
> in India. For the past several days, I’ve been speaking to Quim Gil, Sumana
> and Yuvi Panda. I was informed about the setting up of local groups in
> different countries for technical contributors. With encouragement from all
> of them and with help from Noopur I submitted a proposal for the formation
> of MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad. This proposal has been endorsed by 7 people
> so far.
>
> For those who might be interested in setting up similar groups, I think a
> Wikitech mailing list for India is being set up and personally, I would be
> happy to help you write a proposal for your community. I think it’s a great
> idea because with the help of this technical group we intend to make good
> technical infrastructure and editing environment for Gujarati Wikipedia
> easier to contribute to.
>
> I have already ported HotCat and Popups(on the way) on Gujarati Wikipedia.
> Please have a look at the areas we want to collaborate on:
>
> Areas of collaboration:
>
>- Localize Gadgets for Gujarati Wikipedia and Wikisource
>- Create New Gadgets and extensions
>- Bug solving for Gujarati Wikipedia and WikiSource and also other
>MediaWiki related Bug solving for all Indian languages
>- Translate into Gujarati Language, i.e http://translatewiki.net/
>- Wikidata
>
>
>
> You can read the proposal here:
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Groups/Proposals/Ahmedabad
>
> Your endorsements, improvements and feedback are welcome at the wiki
> page. Thank you!
>
> Harsh Kothari
>
> PS: see also http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Groups/Proposals
>
> *
> ---
> Harsh Kothari
> Research Fellow,
> Physical Research Laboratory(PRL).
> Ahmedabad.
>
>
>
> ___
> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
>
>


-- 
Srikanth Ramakrishnan
Member of the Executive Committee
Wikimedia Chapter [India]
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