Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Krishna Chaitanya Velaga]

Thanks Satdeep, for the heads-up. This is important

Hi Rahul,

I really urge you to speak yourself about this issue here, provide
reasoning and explain your line for thought regarding your participation at
Wikimania 2018. Members from the Chapter and others as well tried to
explain, whatsoever. But being the President of Wikimedia Chapter *(India)*,
I strongly believe that you need voice your thoughts on this matter and
explain it to the community. When the issue has been (still unanswered)
directly pointed out and had been referred to you by several people at
several instances, you should answer it yourself. By the virtue of your
position, you are required to respond, because the President of WMIN is a
community-elected position.

In the past of this conversation, there was a point where the President of
Wikimedia Chapter *(India) *is not subscribed to this mailing list. But I
strongly feel and you should be subscribed
 as the
Leader of a national entity, and be answerable with due respect. I am Ccing
you with your WMIN email to make sure that, even though you aren't
subscribed, you receive the previous emails and mine as well.

Let me know if you need any clarification on things.

--Krishna C V.

On Fri, Mar 8, 2019 at 1:13 AM Satdeep Gill  wrote:

> Hi Rahul,
>
> This is a reminder for you to reply on this email thread. It's been more
> than 5 months and I was expecting a reply from you and I am guessing others
> were expecting it too. Kindly refer to my email dated 13th September 2018
> in this thread.
>
> - Satdeep
>
> On Sun, 16 Sep, 2018, 4:27 PM Abhinav srivastava, 
> wrote:
>
>> Good Evening!
>>
>> Firstly, no attempts to deviate or dismantle the principal problem or
>> replying with impulse. Yes, I am a public-spirited community member and
>> this is truer for India Chapter. The reason I asked Asaf to revert on
>> privacy because many issues like contracts are not disclosed to the general
>> community and instead of we debating endlessly it is better to speak advice
>> from an outside observer and speed up the process.
>>
>> Post-Asaf’s response, I inquired with the Affiliates committee myself. *This
>> is not to say Mr. Deshmukh should not reply, he indeed should to any
>> concerns whatever community seeks to know*. Again, my public spirit
>> asked me to do it, nothing else at all. I am not trying to bring deviations.
>>
>> Mr. Frans Grijzenhout, Chair, The Netherland Chapter informs me that he
>> invited Mr. Deshmukh for the meetup. He informed me that conflict
>> management is a serious issue in the context such as Wikimedia France 2017.
>> All information is already present on Wikimedia Meta. Here's the page with
>> links to the minutes of the meetings, the discussion papers, and some
>> statements in issues that concerns the global affiliate.
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Affiliate_Chairpersons_meetings.
>> Yohann has already shared this with the community on this thread before.
>>
>> I did not realize that it was the same person who wrote on the Wikimania
>> mailing list when this issue was raised. He had written,
>>
>> “Hi Bodhisattewa, Please take into consideration that Rahul did more than
>>
>> speaking for a few minutes during the chairs' meeting in Cape Town.
>>
>> - He prepared a discussion note for this meeting about a sensitive topic.
>>
>> - Rahul and me had several discussions (per skype and in person) in the
>>
>> weeks preceding the actual meeting.
>>
>> - Rahul presented his ideas during the meeting and was actively engaged in
>>
>> the discussion.
>>
>> - And in the end he got some home work as well: enhancing his note with
>> the
>>
>> outcomes of the discussion.
>>
>> The contribution of Rahul was much appreciated.
>>
>> Regards, Frans
>>
>> “
>>
>> Now one more concern that I find as being raised by a few community
>> members when two EC members were present what was the need to send Mr.
>> Deshmukh himself. On Wednesday, 8th August 2018 at 12:42 Indian Standard
>> Time, Yohann had replied on behalf of the Chapter, “ The chapter has
>> full faith and belief in all its board members in both, individual and
>> collective levels. This invitation was to the particular individual based
>> on his expertise in the chapter and in the movement. The chapter has never
>> considered any of its board members unfit to represent it*.**”*
>>
>> I further inquired about this issue with the Affiliates Committee. While
>> Mr. Deshmukh was invited to speak on the Conflict Management the rules say,
>> “The session is for *chairs* of chapters and thematic organizations
>> *only*. You can delegate another member of your board if you cannot make
>> it yourself”
>>
>> So yes, the rules do say that some other board member can be delegated
>> this responsibility. To my understanding, the sentiments of the community
>> were not recorded here. This blunder of not informing the community has
>> perhaps turned in Mahatma 

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Satdeep Gill]

Hi Rahul,

This is a reminder for you to reply on this email thread. It's been more
than 5 months and I was expecting a reply from you and I am guessing others
were expecting it too. Kindly refer to my email dated 13th September 2018
in this thread.

- Satdeep

On Sun, 16 Sep, 2018, 4:27 PM Abhinav srivastava, 
wrote:

> Good Evening!
>
> Firstly, no attempts to deviate or dismantle the principal problem or
> replying with impulse. Yes, I am a public-spirited community member and
> this is truer for India Chapter. The reason I asked Asaf to revert on
> privacy because many issues like contracts are not disclosed to the general
> community and instead of we debating endlessly it is better to speak advice
> from an outside observer and speed up the process.
>
> Post-Asaf’s response, I inquired with the Affiliates committee myself. *This
> is not to say Mr. Deshmukh should not reply, he indeed should to any
> concerns whatever community seeks to know*. Again, my public spirit asked
> me to do it, nothing else at all. I am not trying to bring deviations.
>
> Mr. Frans Grijzenhout, Chair, The Netherland Chapter informs me that he
> invited Mr. Deshmukh for the meetup. He informed me that conflict
> management is a serious issue in the context such as Wikimedia France 2017.
> All information is already present on Wikimedia Meta. Here's the page with
> links to the minutes of the meetings, the discussion papers, and some
> statements in issues that concerns the global affiliate.
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Affiliate_Chairpersons_meetings.
> Yohann has already shared this with the community on this thread before.
>
> I did not realize that it was the same person who wrote on the Wikimania
> mailing list when this issue was raised. He had written,
>
> “Hi Bodhisattewa, Please take into consideration that Rahul did more than
>
> speaking for a few minutes during the chairs' meeting in Cape Town.
>
> - He prepared a discussion note for this meeting about a sensitive topic.
>
> - Rahul and me had several discussions (per skype and in person) in the
>
> weeks preceding the actual meeting.
>
> - Rahul presented his ideas during the meeting and was actively engaged in
>
> the discussion.
>
> - And in the end he got some home work as well: enhancing his note with the
>
> outcomes of the discussion.
>
> The contribution of Rahul was much appreciated.
>
> Regards, Frans
>
> “
>
> Now one more concern that I find as being raised by a few community
> members when two EC members were present what was the need to send Mr.
> Deshmukh himself. On Wednesday, 8th August 2018 at 12:42 Indian Standard
> Time, Yohann had replied on behalf of the Chapter, “ The chapter has full
> faith and belief in all its board members in both, individual and
> collective levels. This invitation was to the particular individual based
> on his expertise in the chapter and in the movement. The chapter has never
> considered any of its board members unfit to represent it*.**”*
>
> I further inquired about this issue with the Affiliates Committee. While
> Mr. Deshmukh was invited to speak on the Conflict Management the rules say,
> “The session is for *chairs* of chapters and thematic organizations *only*.
> You can delegate another member of your board if you cannot make it yourself
> ”
>
> So yes, the rules do say that some other board member can be delegated
> this responsibility. To my understanding, the sentiments of the community
> were not recorded here. This blunder of not informing the community has
> perhaps turned in Mahatma Gandhi’s word, ‘*A Himalayan Blunder’*. While
> Yohann on behalf of Chapter has written that they make a note and would
> engage more effectively with the community in future and also assurance by
> CIS-A2K but we shouldn’t stop here. Discussions should be made on how to
> bring this transparency much more effectively. At last, if the community
> believes and required that Chapter should write a 7 letter word, ‘apology’
> they shouldn’t be hesitant and write it straightaway.
>
>
>
> Now not to deviate the topic but I also wanted to know from CIS-A2K, the
> sponsor myself. Which ledger were the funds allocated, whether from
> affiliates travel ledger or volunteers travel? Bodhisattwa had asked why
> the subsequent travel scholarship was not allocated to those in waiting
> subsequently. The Affiliates body could not provide clarity on this. 2016
> Wiki Conference India editors had asked for the scholarship from CIS-A2K
> and they were awarded not keeping the waiting list criteria, also. I wish
> to propose a simple step suggestion if the waiting list members decline to
> attend Wikimania, cases for those invited to speak for a session (like Dr
> Manavpreet in 2017) can be provided the scholarship. Of course! on each
> such case merit of the visit needs to be quantified beforehand. Similarly,
> for steward meetings amongst others. I can float a white paper on how to
> quantify such metrics (not on this thread, 

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh -take

[Mallikarjuna S J]

Dear All,

I'm a newbie user.

On Wiki Mania Travel Issue:

I fear, what can get solved with a Hangout/IRC is draining us all for more
than a month.
We're washing dirty linen over community list, assuming

   1. each person who receives it, is reading the same with interest


Purely in the interest of resolution,

3-4 point Agenda & a Calendar Hit seems best way to sort this..

We're all in this together.
we must all hang together or most assuredly we will all hang separately.

Can the community elders, facilitate one, to crease out differences?

With all the grace, benevolence & emotions being displayed over emails,
surely, this issue can be sorted out.

--
With Regards,
Mallikarjuna S J,

Confusion is Happiness.
  - Yogaraja Bhat in Paramaathma.

On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 3:33 PM, Asaf Bartov  wrote:

> Wikimedia India is an Indian organization, and the Wikimedia Foundation
> does not have a say in its internal governance.  It does, of course, have
> great *influence*, insofar as it is historically its biggest funder, and in
> that it can revoke its recognition as a Wikimedia affiliate.  I state this
> just for clarity, so that no one is confused about WMF's role in this
> discussion.  This is a matter for Wikimedia India and the communities in
> India which it exists to serve, and not a WMF matter.
>
> However, since you ask me directly, Abhinav, yes, I think this public
> inquiry (which was brought up respectfully and patiently, and only became
> shrill because of *your* ad hominem responses) is perfectly acceptable, and
> an office bearer's accountability is a duty that cannot be argued away by
> invoking "privacy". Rahul's travel was not private, but made *as* an office
> bearer, and there can be no privacy concern about it.
>
> I agree with Srikar: your repeated tactic of attempting to discredit the
> people who raised concerns is inappropriate, aggressive, uncollegial,
> unhelpful, and for those not convinced of your good faith, also probably
> suggesting an attempt to cover something up or change the subject by any
> means necessary.
>
> Now, *I myself* trust there is no reason to cover anything up. As I
> already said earlier in this thread, if a mistake was made, it can be
> openly admitted; in my experience Wikimedians are exceptionally open and
> forgiving when faced with honest admission of error or bad judgment. And if
> no mistake was made, then clarifications can be offered and understanding
> and trust regained.
>
> Rahul has now explained the circumstances of his non-responsiveness, and
> people have expressed understanding and patience, while declining his
> suggestion that this should be discussed privately.  Rahul now can take the
> time he needs to explain his actions to the community, which is the
> constituency he is to serve.
>
> Cheers,
>
>A.
>
> On Thu, Sep 13, 2018, 20:44 Abhinav srivastava 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Perhaps it would be advisable to hear from Mr Asaf Bartov and if we can
>> throw some light.
>>
>> Whether best practices call for taking name publicly or should the
>> concerned persons approach CIS and WMIN and get the details.
>>
>> Abhinav
>> On Thursday, September 13, 2018, Abhinav srivastava 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> It is necessary my friend. Name game business is no sign of maturity.
>>> Rest, report has already been shared.
>>>
>>> Affcom member who is selected and not elected showing biases concerns
>>> me. This chapter only made him a featured wikimedians and assisted him and
>>> his friends. His friend has also acknowledged the help on this thread when
>>> EC members paid from their pocket to support him. He still hasn't finished
>>> the report but we don't do sensationalism.
>>>
>>>
>>> http://wiki.wikimedia.in/Equipment_Lending_and_
>>> Community_Support/Report/2016/Bodhisattwa
>>>
>>> Post Script : Just a general though based on today morning newspapers.
>>> India has become a hub of online trolling where one asks the other to
>>> respond. I am happy they are restricted to social media and not us here.
>>>
>>> I personally respect you for your work on en Wikipedia and also helping
>>> the chapter. I will not reply if you feel so. Suggestion taken.
>>>
>>> Abhinav
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu 13 Sep, 2018, 10:34 PM Srikar Kashyap Pulipaka, <
>>> srikar.kash...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
 

 Dear Abhinav,

 I feel you have been overly enthusiastic in responding to the mails in
 this thread. I clearly don't find *anything* personal and offensive in
 Satdeep's email. That was a totally uncalled for attack on him. It is
 indeed true that Rahul must answer a few questions raised in this thread
 *himself*. I strongly suggest that we let Rahul address all the concerns
 himself in this thread once and for all. I don't expect your reply to this
 mail and hope you don't too. It's not necessary.

 Thanks
 Srikar

 On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 10:19 PM Abhinav srivastava <
 abhinav...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Comrade Satdeep,

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Abhinav srivastava]

Thank You Asaf Bartov for writing back!


On Fri 14 Sep, 2018, 3:33 PM Asaf Bartov,  wrote:

> Wikimedia India is an Indian organization, and the Wikimedia Foundation
> does not have a say in its internal governance.  It does, of course, have
> great *influence*, insofar as it is historically its biggest funder, and in
> that it can revoke its recognition as a Wikimedia affiliate.  I state this
> just for clarity, so that no one is confused about WMF's role in this
> discussion.  This is a matter for Wikimedia India and the communities in
> India which it exists to serve, and not a WMF matter.
>
> However, since you ask me directly, Abhinav, yes, I think this public
> inquiry (which was brought up respectfully and patiently, and only became
> shrill because of *your* ad hominem responses) is perfectly acceptable, and
> an office bearer's accountability is a duty that cannot be argued away by
> invoking "privacy". Rahul's travel was not private, but made *as* an office
> bearer, and there can be no privacy concern about it.
>
> I agree with Srikar: your repeated tactic of attempting to discredit the
> people who raised concerns is inappropriate, aggressive, uncollegial,
> unhelpful, and for those not convinced of your good faith, also probably
> suggesting an attempt to cover something up or change the subject by any
> means necessary.
>
> Now, *I myself* trust there is no reason to cover anything up. As I
> already said earlier in this thread, if a mistake was made, it can be
> openly admitted; in my experience Wikimedians are exceptionally open and
> forgiving when faced with honest admission of error or bad judgment. And if
> no mistake was made, then clarifications can be offered and understanding
> and trust regained.
>
> Rahul has now explained the circumstances of his non-responsiveness, and
> people have expressed understanding and patience, while declining his
> suggestion that this should be discussed privately.  Rahul now can take the
> time he needs to explain his actions to the community, which is the
> constituency he is to serve.
>
> Cheers,
>
>A.
>
> On Thu, Sep 13, 2018, 20:44 Abhinav srivastava 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Perhaps it would be advisable to hear from Mr Asaf Bartov and if we can
>> throw some light.
>>
>> Whether best practices call for taking name publicly or should the
>> concerned persons approach CIS and WMIN and get the details.
>>
>> Abhinav
>> On Thursday, September 13, 2018, Abhinav srivastava 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> It is necessary my friend. Name game business is no sign of maturity.
>>> Rest, report has already been shared.
>>>
>>> Affcom member who is selected and not elected showing biases concerns
>>> me. This chapter only made him a featured wikimedians and assisted him and
>>> his friends. His friend has also acknowledged the help on this thread when
>>> EC members paid from their pocket to support him. He still hasn't finished
>>> the report but we don't do sensationalism.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> http://wiki.wikimedia.in/Equipment_Lending_and_Community_Support/Report/2016/Bodhisattwa
>>>
>>> Post Script : Just a general though based on today morning newspapers.
>>> India has become a hub of online trolling where one asks the other to
>>> respond. I am happy they are restricted to social media and not us here.
>>>
>>> I personally respect you for your work on en Wikipedia and also helping
>>> the chapter. I will not reply if you feel so. Suggestion taken.
>>>
>>> Abhinav
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu 13 Sep, 2018, 10:34 PM Srikar Kashyap Pulipaka, <
>>> srikar.kash...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
 

 Dear Abhinav,

 I feel you have been overly enthusiastic in responding to the mails in
 this thread. I clearly don't find *anything* personal and offensive in
 Satdeep's email. That was a totally uncalled for attack on him. It is
 indeed true that Rahul must answer a few questions raised in this thread
 *himself*. I strongly suggest that we let Rahul address all the concerns
 himself in this thread once and for all. I don't expect your reply to this
 mail and hope you don't too. It's not necessary.

 Thanks
 Srikar

 On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 10:19 PM Abhinav srivastava <
 abhinav...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Comrade Satdeep,
>
> Respect one's personal privacy. You can approach CIS-A2K or Mr
> Deshmukh and WMIN and know who invited. Rest, report and documentation has
> already been shared. You can also write on the discussion page on Meta
> where report has been shared and find out, if you really want an
> individual's name public. I am not convinced why an international
> volunteers name need to be called.
>
> You are not even an elected member at Affcom, if my memory serves me
> correctly. You did not hold any work experience which was written as
> mandatory for the office you are holding. I am not sure if you shared any
> report for the Hindi contractual job. You want to discuss 

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Asaf Bartov]

Wikimedia India is an Indian organization, and the Wikimedia Foundation
does not have a say in its internal governance.  It does, of course, have
great *influence*, insofar as it is historically its biggest funder, and in
that it can revoke its recognition as a Wikimedia affiliate.  I state this
just for clarity, so that no one is confused about WMF's role in this
discussion.  This is a matter for Wikimedia India and the communities in
India which it exists to serve, and not a WMF matter.

However, since you ask me directly, Abhinav, yes, I think this public
inquiry (which was brought up respectfully and patiently, and only became
shrill because of *your* ad hominem responses) is perfectly acceptable, and
an office bearer's accountability is a duty that cannot be argued away by
invoking "privacy". Rahul's travel was not private, but made *as* an office
bearer, and there can be no privacy concern about it.

I agree with Srikar: your repeated tactic of attempting to discredit the
people who raised concerns is inappropriate, aggressive, uncollegial,
unhelpful, and for those not convinced of your good faith, also probably
suggesting an attempt to cover something up or change the subject by any
means necessary.

Now, *I myself* trust there is no reason to cover anything up. As I already
said earlier in this thread, if a mistake was made, it can be openly
admitted; in my experience Wikimedians are exceptionally open and forgiving
when faced with honest admission of error or bad judgment. And if no
mistake was made, then clarifications can be offered and understanding and
trust regained.

Rahul has now explained the circumstances of his non-responsiveness, and
people have expressed understanding and patience, while declining his
suggestion that this should be discussed privately.  Rahul now can take the
time he needs to explain his actions to the community, which is the
constituency he is to serve.

Cheers,

   A.

On Thu, Sep 13, 2018, 20:44 Abhinav srivastava  wrote:

>
> Perhaps it would be advisable to hear from Mr Asaf Bartov and if we can
> throw some light.
>
> Whether best practices call for taking name publicly or should the
> concerned persons approach CIS and WMIN and get the details.
>
> Abhinav
> On Thursday, September 13, 2018, Abhinav srivastava 
> wrote:
>
>> It is necessary my friend. Name game business is no sign of maturity.
>> Rest, report has already been shared.
>>
>> Affcom member who is selected and not elected showing biases concerns me.
>> This chapter only made him a featured wikimedians and assisted him and his
>> friends. His friend has also acknowledged the help on this thread when EC
>> members paid from their pocket to support him. He still hasn't finished the
>> report but we don't do sensationalism.
>>
>>
>>
>> http://wiki.wikimedia.in/Equipment_Lending_and_Community_Support/Report/2016/Bodhisattwa
>>
>> Post Script : Just a general though based on today morning newspapers.
>> India has become a hub of online trolling where one asks the other to
>> respond. I am happy they are restricted to social media and not us here.
>>
>> I personally respect you for your work on en Wikipedia and also helping
>> the chapter. I will not reply if you feel so. Suggestion taken.
>>
>> Abhinav
>>
>>
>> On Thu 13 Sep, 2018, 10:34 PM Srikar Kashyap Pulipaka, <
>> srikar.kash...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> 
>>>
>>> Dear Abhinav,
>>>
>>> I feel you have been overly enthusiastic in responding to the mails in
>>> this thread. I clearly don't find *anything* personal and offensive in
>>> Satdeep's email. That was a totally uncalled for attack on him. It is
>>> indeed true that Rahul must answer a few questions raised in this thread
>>> *himself*. I strongly suggest that we let Rahul address all the concerns
>>> himself in this thread once and for all. I don't expect your reply to this
>>> mail and hope you don't too. It's not necessary.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Srikar
>>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 10:19 PM Abhinav srivastava <
>>> abhinav...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
 Comrade Satdeep,

 Respect one's personal privacy. You can approach CIS-A2K or Mr Deshmukh
 and WMIN and know who invited. Rest, report and documentation has already
 been shared. You can also write on the discussion page on Meta where report
 has been shared and find out, if you really want an individual's name
 public. I am not convinced why an international volunteers name need to be
 called.

 You are not even an elected member at Affcom, if my memory serves me
 correctly. You did not hold any work experience which was written as
 mandatory for the office you are holding. I am not sure if you shared any
 report for the Hindi contractual job. You want to discuss everything about
 you on a personal mail.

 Why the difference?

 Abhinav



 On Thu 13 Sep, 2018, 9:35 PM Satdeep Gill, 
 wrote:

> Hi Rahul,
>
> It's very sad to hear about your 

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Abhinav srivastava]

Dear All,

I have spoken to Satdeep and listened to his concerns. Regret for any
inconveniences stemmed at my end last night. Thank you Srikar and
Subhashish for writing.

Abhinav


On Fri 14 Sep, 2018, 12:09 AM Subhashish Panigrahi, 
wrote:

> As Rahul is going through a huge personal crisis, it is humane to give him
> time to recover. Rahul, sorry for your loss and deepest condolences to the
> close ones.
>
> That said, it is important to discuss a few things publicly that would
> help clear some air and strengthen the transparency. Not everything needs
> to be discussed privately though some should be. This discussion can be
> parked for sometime until Rahul recovers from grief. But the impulsive
> reaction to Satdeep's email is uncalled for. No need to discuss what his
> role is in different organizations/groups that he works for in whatsoever
> capacity. Such discussions could not just dilute the real matter of this
> thread but also potentially create bad breath between members of the
> community. Rahul is a president of a national-level chapter that represents
> the Indian Wikimedia community. So, it is important that he responds in
> that capacity when he is ready. There is nothing personal here (though many
> discussions have been dragged that way).
>
> Abhinav, as a fellow Wikipedian and a friend, my humble request to you
> would be to treat other members in the list respectfully (and the same
> request to all others). You are a Wikipedian and a former office bearer so
> none knows about this better than you.
>
> Subhashish
>
> On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 11:14 PM, Abhinav srivastava  > wrote:
>
>>
>> Perhaps it would be advisable to hear from Mr Asaf Bartov and if we can
>> throw some light.
>>
>> Whether best practices call for taking name publicly or should the
>> concerned persons approach CIS and WMIN and get the details.
>>
>> Abhinav
>>
>> On Thursday, September 13, 2018, Abhinav srivastava 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> It is necessary my friend. Name game business is no sign of maturity.
>>> Rest, report has already been shared.
>>>
>>> Affcom member who is selected and not elected showing biases concerns
>>> me. This chapter only made him a featured wikimedians and assisted him and
>>> his friends. His friend has also acknowledged the help on this thread when
>>> EC members paid from their pocket to support him. He still hasn't finished
>>> the report but we don't do sensationalism.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> http://wiki.wikimedia.in/Equipment_Lending_and_Community_Support/Report/2016/Bodhisattwa
>>>
>>> Post Script : Just a general though based on today morning newspapers.
>>> India has become a hub of online trolling where one asks the other to
>>> respond. I am happy they are restricted to social media and not us here.
>>>
>>> I personally respect you for your work on en Wikipedia and also helping
>>> the chapter. I will not reply if you feel so. Suggestion taken.
>>>
>>> Abhinav
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu 13 Sep, 2018, 10:34 PM Srikar Kashyap Pulipaka, <
>>> srikar.kash...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
 

 Dear Abhinav,

 I feel you have been overly enthusiastic in responding to the mails in
 this thread. I clearly don't find *anything* personal and offensive in
 Satdeep's email. That was a totally uncalled for attack on him. It is
 indeed true that Rahul must answer a few questions raised in this thread
 *himself*. I strongly suggest that we let Rahul address all the concerns
 himself in this thread once and for all. I don't expect your reply to this
 mail and hope you don't too. It's not necessary.

 Thanks
 Srikar

 On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 10:19 PM Abhinav srivastava <
 abhinav...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Comrade Satdeep,
>
> Respect one's personal privacy. You can approach CIS-A2K or Mr
> Deshmukh and WMIN and know who invited. Rest, report and documentation has
> already been shared. You can also write on the discussion page on Meta
> where report has been shared and find out, if you really want an
> individual's name public. I am not convinced why an international
> volunteers name need to be called.
>
> You are not even an elected member at Affcom, if my memory serves me
> correctly. You did not hold any work experience which was written as
> mandatory for the office you are holding. I am not sure if you shared any
> report for the Hindi contractual job. You want to discuss everything about
> you on a personal mail.
>
> Why the difference?
>
> Abhinav
>
>
>
> On Thu 13 Sep, 2018, 9:35 PM Satdeep Gill, 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Rahul,
>>
>> It's very sad to hear about your loss. I totally understand how
>> difficult it must have been for you and rest of your family.
>>
>> Thanks a lot responding to this thread. I understand your request to
>> personally email you but there are many unanswered questions such as
>> information about the 

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Subhashish Panigrahi]

As Rahul is going through a huge personal crisis, it is humane to give him
time to recover. Rahul, sorry for your loss and deepest condolences to the
close ones.

That said, it is important to discuss a few things publicly that would help
clear some air and strengthen the transparency. Not everything needs to be
discussed privately though some should be. This discussion can be parked
for sometime until Rahul recovers from grief. But the impulsive reaction to
Satdeep's email is uncalled for. No need to discuss what his role is in
different organizations/groups that he works for in whatsoever capacity.
Such discussions could not just dilute the real matter of this thread but
also potentially create bad breath between members of the community. Rahul
is a president of a national-level chapter that represents the Indian
Wikimedia community. So, it is important that he responds in that capacity
when he is ready. There is nothing personal here (though many discussions
have been dragged that way).

Abhinav, as a fellow Wikipedian and a friend, my humble request to you
would be to treat other members in the list respectfully (and the same
request to all others). You are a Wikipedian and a former office bearer so
none knows about this better than you.

Subhashish

On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 11:14 PM, Abhinav srivastava 
wrote:

>
> Perhaps it would be advisable to hear from Mr Asaf Bartov and if we can
> throw some light.
>
> Whether best practices call for taking name publicly or should the
> concerned persons approach CIS and WMIN and get the details.
>
> Abhinav
>
> On Thursday, September 13, 2018, Abhinav srivastava 
> wrote:
>
>> It is necessary my friend. Name game business is no sign of maturity.
>> Rest, report has already been shared.
>>
>> Affcom member who is selected and not elected showing biases concerns me.
>> This chapter only made him a featured wikimedians and assisted him and his
>> friends. His friend has also acknowledged the help on this thread when EC
>> members paid from their pocket to support him. He still hasn't finished the
>> report but we don't do sensationalism.
>>
>>
>> http://wiki.wikimedia.in/Equipment_Lending_and_Community_
>> Support/Report/2016/Bodhisattwa
>>
>> Post Script : Just a general though based on today morning newspapers.
>> India has become a hub of online trolling where one asks the other to
>> respond. I am happy they are restricted to social media and not us here.
>>
>> I personally respect you for your work on en Wikipedia and also helping
>> the chapter. I will not reply if you feel so. Suggestion taken.
>>
>> Abhinav
>>
>>
>> On Thu 13 Sep, 2018, 10:34 PM Srikar Kashyap Pulipaka, <
>> srikar.kash...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> 
>>>
>>> Dear Abhinav,
>>>
>>> I feel you have been overly enthusiastic in responding to the mails in
>>> this thread. I clearly don't find *anything* personal and offensive in
>>> Satdeep's email. That was a totally uncalled for attack on him. It is
>>> indeed true that Rahul must answer a few questions raised in this thread
>>> *himself*. I strongly suggest that we let Rahul address all the concerns
>>> himself in this thread once and for all. I don't expect your reply to this
>>> mail and hope you don't too. It's not necessary.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Srikar
>>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 10:19 PM Abhinav srivastava <
>>> abhinav...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
 Comrade Satdeep,

 Respect one's personal privacy. You can approach CIS-A2K or Mr Deshmukh
 and WMIN and know who invited. Rest, report and documentation has already
 been shared. You can also write on the discussion page on Meta where report
 has been shared and find out, if you really want an individual's name
 public. I am not convinced why an international volunteers name need to be
 called.

 You are not even an elected member at Affcom, if my memory serves me
 correctly. You did not hold any work experience which was written as
 mandatory for the office you are holding. I am not sure if you shared any
 report for the Hindi contractual job. You want to discuss everything about
 you on a personal mail.

 Why the difference?

 Abhinav



 On Thu 13 Sep, 2018, 9:35 PM Satdeep Gill, 
 wrote:

> Hi Rahul,
>
> It's very sad to hear about your loss. I totally understand how
> difficult it must have been for you and rest of your family.
>
> Thanks a lot responding to this thread. I understand your request to
> personally email you but there are many unanswered questions such as
> information about the inviting organization, reporting etc. in this thread
> and it would be better if you can answer all the questions one by one in
> one email on this thread itself.
>
> Let me know if you need any help in collecting all the questions in
> one email. I am available to help you. Otherwise, just go through the 
> whole
> thread (which will provide you 

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Abhinav srivastava]

Perhaps it would be advisable to hear from Mr Asaf Bartov and if we can
throw some light.

Whether best practices call for taking name publicly or should the
concerned persons approach CIS and WMIN and get the details.

Abhinav
On Thursday, September 13, 2018, Abhinav srivastava 
wrote:

> It is necessary my friend. Name game business is no sign of maturity.
> Rest, report has already been shared.
>
> Affcom member who is selected and not elected showing biases concerns me.
> This chapter only made him a featured wikimedians and assisted him and his
> friends. His friend has also acknowledged the help on this thread when EC
> members paid from their pocket to support him. He still hasn't finished the
> report but we don't do sensationalism.
>
>
> http://wiki.wikimedia.in/Equipment_Lending_and_
> Community_Support/Report/2016/Bodhisattwa
>
> Post Script : Just a general though based on today morning newspapers.
> India has become a hub of online trolling where one asks the other to
> respond. I am happy they are restricted to social media and not us here.
>
> I personally respect you for your work on en Wikipedia and also helping
> the chapter. I will not reply if you feel so. Suggestion taken.
>
> Abhinav
>
>
> On Thu 13 Sep, 2018, 10:34 PM Srikar Kashyap Pulipaka, <
> srikar.kash...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> 
>>
>> Dear Abhinav,
>>
>> I feel you have been overly enthusiastic in responding to the mails in
>> this thread. I clearly don't find *anything* personal and offensive in
>> Satdeep's email. That was a totally uncalled for attack on him. It is
>> indeed true that Rahul must answer a few questions raised in this thread
>> *himself*. I strongly suggest that we let Rahul address all the concerns
>> himself in this thread once and for all. I don't expect your reply to this
>> mail and hope you don't too. It's not necessary.
>>
>> Thanks
>> Srikar
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 10:19 PM Abhinav srivastava 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Comrade Satdeep,
>>>
>>> Respect one's personal privacy. You can approach CIS-A2K or Mr Deshmukh
>>> and WMIN and know who invited. Rest, report and documentation has already
>>> been shared. You can also write on the discussion page on Meta where report
>>> has been shared and find out, if you really want an individual's name
>>> public. I am not convinced why an international volunteers name need to be
>>> called.
>>>
>>> You are not even an elected member at Affcom, if my memory serves me
>>> correctly. You did not hold any work experience which was written as
>>> mandatory for the office you are holding. I am not sure if you shared any
>>> report for the Hindi contractual job. You want to discuss everything about
>>> you on a personal mail.
>>>
>>> Why the difference?
>>>
>>> Abhinav
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu 13 Sep, 2018, 9:35 PM Satdeep Gill, 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Hi Rahul,

 It's very sad to hear about your loss. I totally understand how
 difficult it must have been for you and rest of your family.

 Thanks a lot responding to this thread. I understand your request to
 personally email you but there are many unanswered questions such as
 information about the inviting organization, reporting etc. in this thread
 and it would be better if you can answer all the questions one by one in
 one email on this thread itself.

 Let me know if you need any help in collecting all the questions in one
 email. I am available to help you. Otherwise, just go through the whole
 thread (which will provide you with enough context as well).

 I agree with you that this discussion will help WMIN and the larger
 wikimedia community as well. It will also help us ensure more transparency
 in our processes.

 Looking forward to hear from you! Thank you once again for taking out
 some time to reply here. I believe you must not be fully available yet. So,
 take your time and respond whenever you can in the coming weeks.

 Best
 Satdeep


 On Thu, Sep 13, 2018, 7:09 PM Rahul Deshmukh <
 rahuldeshmukh...@wikimedia.in> wrote:

> *Dear all,*
>
> *I am extremely sorry to inform you that my younger cousin brother
> passed away last Friday from severe medical complications. He was just 38
> and had been hospitalised for several weeks in critical stage. *
>
> *Being engrossed in the family issue I was not able to reply the
> thread for which I am extremely sorry.*
>
> *Regarding the issue as discussed in the thread I had requested for
> sponsorship with all needful information from external funding agency CIS,
> and CIS agreed to it.  Wikimedia India did not spend any fund from its
> account. *
>
> *However this discussion will be helpful for Wikimedia India while
> disseminating WMIN’s funds in future.  *
>
> *In case someone wants any other information  in this regard I would
> request community members to personally email me.*

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Srikar Kashyap Pulipaka]

Dear Abhinav,

It is quite sad that I'm having this conversation with a wikimedian of your
stature. Satdeep is not the only one waiting for Rahul's responses. Please
use your diversionary tactics elsewhere. If you truly believe Satdeep's
credentials are dubious, use the appropriate forum to get it solved. This
mail thread is *exclusively *about this discrepancy. Isn't it surprising
that whenever a person (be it Bodhi, Satdeep) raises a genuine question
about this issue, you suddenly start talking about their history and
actions. You might think that it's an intelligent movie aimed at shutting
them down, but you are only enhancing the suspicions of the community.

I really don't care if you respect my work or not. This thread neither
deals with my contribs nor Satdeep's credentials. This is clearly getting
out of hand Abhinav. You are only making a fool out of yourself by
repeatedly threatening everyone aggressively. I repeat, bringing up a
volunteer's history or actions in this thread is not acceptable. I sense
you will continue to do so despite so many people already advising you to
do otherwise, I leave the decision to you.

Thanks,
Srikar

On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 10:49 PM Abhinav srivastava 
wrote:

> It is necessary my friend. Name game business is no sign of maturity.
> Rest, report has already been shared.
>
> Affcom member who is selected and not elected showing biases concerns me.
> This chapter only made him a featured wikimedians and assisted him and his
> friends. His friend has also acknowledged the help on this thread when EC
> members paid from their pocket to support him. He still hasn't finished the
> report but we don't do sensationalism.
>
>
>
> http://wiki.wikimedia.in/Equipment_Lending_and_Community_Support/Report/2016/Bodhisattwa
>
> Post Script : Just a general though based on today morning newspapers.
> India has become a hub of online trolling where one asks the other to
> respond. I am happy they are restricted to social media and not us here.
>
> I personally respect you for your work on en Wikipedia and also helping
> the chapter. I will not reply if you feel so. Suggestion taken.
>
> Abhinav
>
>
> On Thu 13 Sep, 2018, 10:34 PM Srikar Kashyap Pulipaka, <
> srikar.kash...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> 
>>
>> Dear Abhinav,
>>
>> I feel you have been overly enthusiastic in responding to the mails in
>> this thread. I clearly don't find *anything* personal and offensive in
>> Satdeep's email. That was a totally uncalled for attack on him. It is
>> indeed true that Rahul must answer a few questions raised in this thread
>> *himself*. I strongly suggest that we let Rahul address all the concerns
>> himself in this thread once and for all. I don't expect your reply to this
>> mail and hope you don't too. It's not necessary.
>>
>> Thanks
>> Srikar
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 10:19 PM Abhinav srivastava 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Comrade Satdeep,
>>>
>>> Respect one's personal privacy. You can approach CIS-A2K or Mr Deshmukh
>>> and WMIN and know who invited. Rest, report and documentation has already
>>> been shared. You can also write on the discussion page on Meta where report
>>> has been shared and find out, if you really want an individual's name
>>> public. I am not convinced why an international volunteers name need to be
>>> called.
>>>
>>> You are not even an elected member at Affcom, if my memory serves me
>>> correctly. You did not hold any work experience which was written as
>>> mandatory for the office you are holding. I am not sure if you shared any
>>> report for the Hindi contractual job. You want to discuss everything about
>>> you on a personal mail.
>>>
>>> Why the difference?
>>>
>>> Abhinav
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu 13 Sep, 2018, 9:35 PM Satdeep Gill, 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Hi Rahul,

 It's very sad to hear about your loss. I totally understand how
 difficult it must have been for you and rest of your family.

 Thanks a lot responding to this thread. I understand your request to
 personally email you but there are many unanswered questions such as
 information about the inviting organization, reporting etc. in this thread
 and it would be better if you can answer all the questions one by one in
 one email on this thread itself.

 Let me know if you need any help in collecting all the questions in one
 email. I am available to help you. Otherwise, just go through the whole
 thread (which will provide you with enough context as well).

 I agree with you that this discussion will help WMIN and the larger
 wikimedia community as well. It will also help us ensure more transparency
 in our processes.

 Looking forward to hear from you! Thank you once again for taking out
 some time to reply here. I believe you must not be fully available yet. So,
 take your time and respond whenever you can in the coming weeks.

 Best
 Satdeep


 On Thu, Sep 13, 2018, 7:09 PM Rahul Deshmukh <
 

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Abhinav srivastava]

It is necessary my friend. Name game business is no sign of maturity. Rest,
report has already been shared.

Affcom member who is selected and not elected showing biases concerns me.
This chapter only made him a featured wikimedians and assisted him and his
friends. His friend has also acknowledged the help on this thread when EC
members paid from their pocket to support him. He still hasn't finished the
report but we don't do sensationalism.


http://wiki.wikimedia.in/Equipment_Lending_and_Community_Support/Report/2016/Bodhisattwa

Post Script : Just a general though based on today morning newspapers.
India has become a hub of online trolling where one asks the other to
respond. I am happy they are restricted to social media and not us here.

I personally respect you for your work on en Wikipedia and also helping the
chapter. I will not reply if you feel so. Suggestion taken.

Abhinav


On Thu 13 Sep, 2018, 10:34 PM Srikar Kashyap Pulipaka, <
srikar.kash...@gmail.com> wrote:

> 
>
> Dear Abhinav,
>
> I feel you have been overly enthusiastic in responding to the mails in
> this thread. I clearly don't find *anything* personal and offensive in
> Satdeep's email. That was a totally uncalled for attack on him. It is
> indeed true that Rahul must answer a few questions raised in this thread
> *himself*. I strongly suggest that we let Rahul address all the concerns
> himself in this thread once and for all. I don't expect your reply to this
> mail and hope you don't too. It's not necessary.
>
> Thanks
> Srikar
>
> On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 10:19 PM Abhinav srivastava 
> wrote:
>
>> Comrade Satdeep,
>>
>> Respect one's personal privacy. You can approach CIS-A2K or Mr Deshmukh
>> and WMIN and know who invited. Rest, report and documentation has already
>> been shared. You can also write on the discussion page on Meta where report
>> has been shared and find out, if you really want an individual's name
>> public. I am not convinced why an international volunteers name need to be
>> called.
>>
>> You are not even an elected member at Affcom, if my memory serves me
>> correctly. You did not hold any work experience which was written as
>> mandatory for the office you are holding. I am not sure if you shared any
>> report for the Hindi contractual job. You want to discuss everything about
>> you on a personal mail.
>>
>> Why the difference?
>>
>> Abhinav
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu 13 Sep, 2018, 9:35 PM Satdeep Gill,  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Rahul,
>>>
>>> It's very sad to hear about your loss. I totally understand how
>>> difficult it must have been for you and rest of your family.
>>>
>>> Thanks a lot responding to this thread. I understand your request to
>>> personally email you but there are many unanswered questions such as
>>> information about the inviting organization, reporting etc. in this thread
>>> and it would be better if you can answer all the questions one by one in
>>> one email on this thread itself.
>>>
>>> Let me know if you need any help in collecting all the questions in one
>>> email. I am available to help you. Otherwise, just go through the whole
>>> thread (which will provide you with enough context as well).
>>>
>>> I agree with you that this discussion will help WMIN and the larger
>>> wikimedia community as well. It will also help us ensure more transparency
>>> in our processes.
>>>
>>> Looking forward to hear from you! Thank you once again for taking out
>>> some time to reply here. I believe you must not be fully available yet. So,
>>> take your time and respond whenever you can in the coming weeks.
>>>
>>> Best
>>> Satdeep
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 13, 2018, 7:09 PM Rahul Deshmukh <
>>> rahuldeshmukh...@wikimedia.in> wrote:
>>>
 *Dear all,*

 *I am extremely sorry to inform you that my younger cousin brother
 passed away last Friday from severe medical complications. He was just 38
 and had been hospitalised for several weeks in critical stage. *

 *Being engrossed in the family issue I was not able to reply the thread
 for which I am extremely sorry.*

 *Regarding the issue as discussed in the thread I had requested for
 sponsorship with all needful information from external funding agency CIS,
 and CIS agreed to it.  Wikimedia India did not spend any fund from its
 account. *

 *However this discussion will be helpful for Wikimedia India while
 disseminating WMIN’s funds in future.  *

 *In case someone wants any other information  in this regard I would
 request community members to personally email me.*

 *Thanks*

 *Rahul Deshmukh*




 On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 2:06 PM, Sudhanwa Jogalekar <
 sudhanwa@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, Sep 9, 2018 at 3:47 PM Subhashish Panigrahi <
> psubhash...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Just a technical clarification - Asaf copied Rahul in his first emai
>> so he must have received the email. I have copied Rahul again. In 

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Srikar Kashyap Pulipaka]

Dear Abhinav,

I feel you have been overly enthusiastic in responding to the mails in this
thread. I clearly don't find *anything* personal and offensive in Satdeep's
email. That was a totally uncalled for attack on him. It is indeed true
that Rahul must answer a few questions raised in this thread *himself*. I
strongly suggest that we let Rahul address all the concerns himself in this
thread once and for all. I don't expect your reply to this mail and hope
you don't too. It's not necessary.

Thanks
Srikar

On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 10:19 PM Abhinav srivastava 
wrote:

> Comrade Satdeep,
>
> Respect one's personal privacy. You can approach CIS-A2K or Mr Deshmukh
> and WMIN and know who invited. Rest, report and documentation has already
> been shared. You can also write on the discussion page on Meta where report
> has been shared and find out, if you really want an individual's name
> public. I am not convinced why an international volunteers name need to be
> called.
>
> You are not even an elected member at Affcom, if my memory serves me
> correctly. You did not hold any work experience which was written as
> mandatory for the office you are holding. I am not sure if you shared any
> report for the Hindi contractual job. You want to discuss everything about
> you on a personal mail.
>
> Why the difference?
>
> Abhinav
>
>
>
> On Thu 13 Sep, 2018, 9:35 PM Satdeep Gill,  wrote:
>
>> Hi Rahul,
>>
>> It's very sad to hear about your loss. I totally understand how difficult
>> it must have been for you and rest of your family.
>>
>> Thanks a lot responding to this thread. I understand your request to
>> personally email you but there are many unanswered questions such as
>> information about the inviting organization, reporting etc. in this thread
>> and it would be better if you can answer all the questions one by one in
>> one email on this thread itself.
>>
>> Let me know if you need any help in collecting all the questions in one
>> email. I am available to help you. Otherwise, just go through the whole
>> thread (which will provide you with enough context as well).
>>
>> I agree with you that this discussion will help WMIN and the larger
>> wikimedia community as well. It will also help us ensure more transparency
>> in our processes.
>>
>> Looking forward to hear from you! Thank you once again for taking out
>> some time to reply here. I believe you must not be fully available yet. So,
>> take your time and respond whenever you can in the coming weeks.
>>
>> Best
>> Satdeep
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 13, 2018, 7:09 PM Rahul Deshmukh <
>> rahuldeshmukh...@wikimedia.in> wrote:
>>
>>> *Dear all,*
>>>
>>> *I am extremely sorry to inform you that my younger cousin brother
>>> passed away last Friday from severe medical complications. He was just 38
>>> and had been hospitalised for several weeks in critical stage. *
>>>
>>> *Being engrossed in the family issue I was not able to reply the thread
>>> for which I am extremely sorry.*
>>>
>>> *Regarding the issue as discussed in the thread I had requested for
>>> sponsorship with all needful information from external funding agency CIS,
>>> and CIS agreed to it.  Wikimedia India did not spend any fund from its
>>> account. *
>>>
>>> *However this discussion will be helpful for Wikimedia India while
>>> disseminating WMIN’s funds in future.  *
>>>
>>> *In case someone wants any other information  in this regard I would
>>> request community members to personally email me.*
>>>
>>> *Thanks*
>>>
>>> *Rahul Deshmukh*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 2:06 PM, Sudhanwa Jogalekar <
>>> sudhanwa@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>


 On Sun, Sep 9, 2018 at 3:47 PM Subhashish Panigrahi <
 psubhash...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Just a technical clarification - Asaf copied Rahul in his first emai
> so he must have received the email. I have copied Rahul again. In worst
> case scenario (if he is not there in the mailing list), others from the
> chapter board would have informed him. It’s very hard to believe that the
> discussion has gone so far without Rahul not being aware Also, it’s
> important for movement partner reps to be on mailing lists of their own
> country.
>

 My bad. Haven't noticed Rahul is also marked in the mails.


>
> Sorry, I don’t find the argument — that Rahul hasn’t replied back
> because he isn’t there in the mailing list — a strong one.
>

 Completely agree that he should reply.

 Regards
 -Sudhanwa



 ___
 Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
 Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
 To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
 https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l


>>> ___
>>> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
>>> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> To unsubscribe from the list / change 

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Abhinav srivastava]

Comrade Satdeep,

Respect one's personal privacy. You can approach CIS-A2K or Mr Deshmukh and
WMIN and know who invited. Rest, report and documentation has already been
shared. You can also write on the discussion page on Meta where report has
been shared and find out, if you really want an individual's name public. I
am not convinced why an international volunteers name need to be called.

You are not even an elected member at Affcom, if my memory serves me
correctly. You did not hold any work experience which was written as
mandatory for the office you are holding. I am not sure if you shared any
report for the Hindi contractual job. You want to discuss everything about
you on a personal mail.

Why the difference?

Abhinav



On Thu 13 Sep, 2018, 9:35 PM Satdeep Gill,  wrote:

> Hi Rahul,
>
> It's very sad to hear about your loss. I totally understand how difficult
> it must have been for you and rest of your family.
>
> Thanks a lot responding to this thread. I understand your request to
> personally email you but there are many unanswered questions such as
> information about the inviting organization, reporting etc. in this thread
> and it would be better if you can answer all the questions one by one in
> one email on this thread itself.
>
> Let me know if you need any help in collecting all the questions in one
> email. I am available to help you. Otherwise, just go through the whole
> thread (which will provide you with enough context as well).
>
> I agree with you that this discussion will help WMIN and the larger
> wikimedia community as well. It will also help us ensure more transparency
> in our processes.
>
> Looking forward to hear from you! Thank you once again for taking out some
> time to reply here. I believe you must not be fully available yet. So, take
> your time and respond whenever you can in the coming weeks.
>
> Best
> Satdeep
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 13, 2018, 7:09 PM Rahul Deshmukh <
> rahuldeshmukh...@wikimedia.in> wrote:
>
>> *Dear all,*
>>
>> *I am extremely sorry to inform you that my younger cousin brother passed
>> away last Friday from severe medical complications. He was just 38 and had
>> been hospitalised for several weeks in critical stage. *
>>
>> *Being engrossed in the family issue I was not able to reply the thread
>> for which I am extremely sorry.*
>>
>> *Regarding the issue as discussed in the thread I had requested for
>> sponsorship with all needful information from external funding agency CIS,
>> and CIS agreed to it.  Wikimedia India did not spend any fund from its
>> account. *
>>
>> *However this discussion will be helpful for Wikimedia India while
>> disseminating WMIN’s funds in future.  *
>>
>> *In case someone wants any other information  in this regard I would
>> request community members to personally email me.*
>>
>> *Thanks*
>>
>> *Rahul Deshmukh*
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 2:06 PM, Sudhanwa Jogalekar <
>> sudhanwa@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Sep 9, 2018 at 3:47 PM Subhashish Panigrahi <
>>> psubhash...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
 Just a technical clarification - Asaf copied Rahul in his first emai so
 he must have received the email. I have copied Rahul again. In worst case
 scenario (if he is not there in the mailing list), others from the chapter
 board would have informed him. It’s very hard to believe that the
 discussion has gone so far without Rahul not being aware Also, it’s
 important for movement partner reps to be on mailing lists of their own
 country.

>>>
>>> My bad. Haven't noticed Rahul is also marked in the mails.
>>>
>>>

 Sorry, I don’t find the argument — that Rahul hasn’t replied back
 because he isn’t there in the mailing list — a strong one.

>>>
>>> Completely agree that he should reply.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> -Sudhanwa
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
>>> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
>>>
>>>
>> ___
>> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
>> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
>
>
>
>
>> ___
> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
>
___
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit 
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Satdeep Gill]

Hi Rahul,

It's very sad to hear about your loss. I totally understand how difficult
it must have been for you and rest of your family.

Thanks a lot responding to this thread. I understand your request to
personally email you but there are many unanswered questions such as
information about the inviting organization, reporting etc. in this thread
and it would be better if you can answer all the questions one by one in
one email on this thread itself.

Let me know if you need any help in collecting all the questions in one
email. I am available to help you. Otherwise, just go through the whole
thread (which will provide you with enough context as well).

I agree with you that this discussion will help WMIN and the larger
wikimedia community as well. It will also help us ensure more transparency
in our processes.

Looking forward to hear from you! Thank you once again for taking out some
time to reply here. I believe you must not be fully available yet. So, take
your time and respond whenever you can in the coming weeks.

Best
Satdeep


On Thu, Sep 13, 2018, 7:09 PM Rahul Deshmukh 
wrote:

> *Dear all,*
>
> *I am extremely sorry to inform you that my younger cousin brother passed
> away last Friday from severe medical complications. He was just 38 and had
> been hospitalised for several weeks in critical stage. *
>
> *Being engrossed in the family issue I was not able to reply the thread
> for which I am extremely sorry.*
>
> *Regarding the issue as discussed in the thread I had requested for
> sponsorship with all needful information from external funding agency CIS,
> and CIS agreed to it.  Wikimedia India did not spend any fund from its
> account. *
>
> *However this discussion will be helpful for Wikimedia India while
> disseminating WMIN’s funds in future.  *
>
> *In case someone wants any other information  in this regard I would
> request community members to personally email me.*
>
> *Thanks*
>
> *Rahul Deshmukh*
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 2:06 PM, Sudhanwa Jogalekar <
> sudhanwa@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Sep 9, 2018 at 3:47 PM Subhashish Panigrahi <
>> psubhash...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Just a technical clarification - Asaf copied Rahul in his first emai so
>>> he must have received the email. I have copied Rahul again. In worst case
>>> scenario (if he is not there in the mailing list), others from the chapter
>>> board would have informed him. It’s very hard to believe that the
>>> discussion has gone so far without Rahul not being aware Also, it’s
>>> important for movement partner reps to be on mailing lists of their own
>>> country.
>>>
>>
>> My bad. Haven't noticed Rahul is also marked in the mails.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Sorry, I don’t find the argument — that Rahul hasn’t replied back
>>> because he isn’t there in the mailing list — a strong one.
>>>
>>
>> Completely agree that he should reply.
>>
>> Regards
>> -Sudhanwa
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
>> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
>>
>>
> ___
> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l




>
___
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit 
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Rahul Deshmukh]

*Dear all,*

*I am extremely sorry to inform you that my younger cousin brother passed
away last Friday from severe medical complications. He was just 38 and had
been hospitalised for several weeks in critical stage. *

*Being engrossed in the family issue I was not able to reply the thread for
which I am extremely sorry.*

*Regarding the issue as discussed in the thread I had requested for
sponsorship with all needful information from external funding agency CIS,
and CIS agreed to it.  Wikimedia India did not spend any fund from its
account. *

*However this discussion will be helpful for Wikimedia India while
disseminating WMIN’s funds in future.  *

*In case someone wants any other information  in this regard I would
request community members to personally email me.*

*Thanks*

*Rahul Deshmukh*




On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 2:06 PM, Sudhanwa Jogalekar 
wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, Sep 9, 2018 at 3:47 PM Subhashish Panigrahi 
> wrote:
>
>> Just a technical clarification - Asaf copied Rahul in his first emai so
>> he must have received the email. I have copied Rahul again. In worst case
>> scenario (if he is not there in the mailing list), others from the chapter
>> board would have informed him. It’s very hard to believe that the
>> discussion has gone so far without Rahul not being aware Also, it’s
>> important for movement partner reps to be on mailing lists of their own
>> country.
>>
>
> My bad. Haven't noticed Rahul is also marked in the mails.
>
>
>>
>> Sorry, I don’t find the argument — that Rahul hasn’t replied back because
>> he isn’t there in the mailing list — a strong one.
>>
>
> Completely agree that he should reply.
>
> Regards
> -Sudhanwa
>
>
>
> ___
> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
>
>
___
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit 
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Sudhanwa Jogalekar]

On Sun, Sep 9, 2018 at 3:47 PM Subhashish Panigrahi 
wrote:

> Just a technical clarification - Asaf copied Rahul in his first emai so he
> must have received the email. I have copied Rahul again. In worst case
> scenario (if he is not there in the mailing list), others from the chapter
> board would have informed him. It’s very hard to believe that the
> discussion has gone so far without Rahul not being aware Also, it’s
> important for movement partner reps to be on mailing lists of their own
> country.
>

My bad. Haven't noticed Rahul is also marked in the mails.


>
> Sorry, I don’t find the argument — that Rahul hasn’t replied back because
> he isn’t there in the mailing list — a strong one.
>

Completely agree that he should reply.

Regards
-Sudhanwa
___
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit 
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Subhashish Panigrahi]

Just a technical clarification - Asaf copied Rahul in his first emai so he must 
have received the email. I have copied Rahul again. In worst case scenario (if 
he is not there in the mailing list), others from the chapter board would have 
informed him. It’s very hard to believe that the discussion has gone so far 
without Rahul not being aware Also, it’s important for movement partner reps to 
be on mailing lists of their own country. 

Sorry, I don’t find the argument — that Rahul hasn’t replied back because he 
isn’t there in the mailing list — a strong one.

S

> On Sep 9, 2018, at 3:01 PM, Sudhanwa Jogalekar  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> In spite of so many mails, if he(Rahul) is not responding, It is obvious that 
> he is not on this mailing list. 
> 
> I found Bodhisattwa's initial query was in the right spirit but later on 
> tones got changed on the thread and it has almost become 
> scrutiny/interrogation !! 
> I completely understand/respect/agree that we are all volunteers and we do 
> have concerns about the activities happening around. But in this case, things 
> are probably not taken "In good faith" which is a base of a Wikipedian. 
> Any volunteer is always free to apply/ask for scholarship for any reason 
> towards the cause of Wikipedia and no one can deny that freedom. In this 
> case, it happens to be a office bearer of the organisation. (I am not taking 
> any names here and making it generic) If a volunteer feels that the reason 
> for asking for scholarship is valid, he/she should ask for it. 
> 
> It is the duty of the person/organisation sanctioning such 
> scholarships/funding to judge if the justification for the same is valid or 
> not. If the justification is not right, sponsorship can be easily rejected. 
> Nothing wrong in it. In this case, CIS-A2K has already replied to the query. 
> Somehow, people are still asking the sponsored volunteer for justification 
> and not the sponsoring authorities. It should be the other way round as the 
> sponsors have the authority to accept or reject any proposal. I believe, in 
> the past WMF has also spend money on similar sponsorships without even 
> informing the community. Lot of money has been spent in various projects 
> without much visibility and actual numbers in achieving the target. But then 
> very few people are raising alerts about it. 
> 
> So, if at all people want to raise their concern, find the right target to 
> ask questions/get answers and not just another volunteer !! 
> Hope people will take up things in the right spirit.
> 
> Disclaimer: I have not met/talked to anyone from WMIN/WMF after this thread 
> has started. Just had a 1-2 minute casual discussion with Tito about the mail 
> thread itself.
> 
> Regards
> -Sudhanwa
> 
> 
> 
>> On Tue, Sep 4, 2018 at 11:15 AM Karthik Nadar  wrote:
>> Dear WMIN EC/Rahul,
>> 
>> I think the community is still waiting for an answer.
>> 
>> My further points:
>> 
>> 1. I appreciate Abhinav for defending the Chapter. Having been in the seat, 
>> I would personally incline to defend too, however it really has to make 
>> sense. 
>> 
>> 2. CIS has done it's role of helping WMIN as always. Perhaps request of 
>> support upto this scale should be available to public even before it is 
>> accepted. I think CIS should also have analysed that there were two members 
>> from WMIN EC were attending Wikimania.
>> 
>> Would not like to deviate more. In complete sync with Asaf. WMIN is 
>> answerable to the community and to its members. No doubt here and it's been 
>> just too long, way too long.
>> 
>> Dear WMIN, the only way to gain community confidence is to engage with them. 
>> Really surprised with activities like Wiki Loves Monuments which was always 
>> a Chapter supported activity is not supported by Chapter this year or 
>> correct me if I'm wrong. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Karthik Nadar
>> Ignore types, sent using my OnePlus
>> 
>>> On Fri 24 Aug, 2018, 1:22 AM Asaf Bartov,  wrote:
>>> Dear Rahul,
>>> 
>>> It's been 10 days since I've explicitly invited you to respond yourself and 
>>> to take responsibility for this -- whether a mistake or a misunderstanding. 
>>>  It would be good if you could make time to do so.  If you are unable to 
>>> put in the time, please at least drop a line acknowledging you intend to, 
>>> and suggest a date by which you'd be able to respond.
>>> 
>>> It seems to me people have been trying to assume good faith despite 
>>> concerns about the way this was handled, but this assumption of good faith 
>>> should not be abused indefinitely.  WMIN's EC and its president should be 
>>> accountable to the membership and the broader communities it exists to 
>>> support.  You agreed with this statement when I made it in our meeting in 
>>> Mumbai last year.  Do please show you meant it.
>>> 
>>> Thank you,
>>> 
>>> A.
>>> 
 On Mon, Aug 13, 2018 at 11:04 PM Asaf Bartov  wrote:
 Perhaps also helpful would be to hear some response from Mr. Deshmukh 
 

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Sudhanwa Jogalekar]

Hi,

In spite of so many mails, if he(Rahul) is not responding, It is obvious
that he is not on this mailing list.

I found Bodhisattwa's initial query was in the right spirit but later on
tones got changed on the thread and it has almost become
scrutiny/interrogation !!
I completely understand/respect/agree that we are all volunteers and we do
have concerns about the activities happening around. But in this case,
things are probably not taken "In good faith" which is a base of a
Wikipedian.
Any volunteer is always free to apply/ask for scholarship for any reason
towards the cause of Wikipedia and no one can deny that freedom. In this
case, it happens to be a office bearer of the organisation. (I am not
taking any names here and making it generic) If a volunteer feels that the
reason for asking for scholarship is valid, he/she should ask for it.

It is the duty of the person/organisation sanctioning such
scholarships/funding to judge if the justification for the same is valid or
not. If the justification is not right, sponsorship can be easily rejected.
Nothing wrong in it. In this case, CIS-A2K has already replied to the
query. Somehow, people are still asking the sponsored volunteer for
justification and not the sponsoring authorities. It should be the other
way round as the sponsors have the authority to accept or reject any
proposal. I believe, in the past WMF has also spend money on similar
sponsorships without even informing the community. Lot of money has been
spent in various projects without much visibility and actual numbers in
achieving the target. But then very few people are raising alerts about it.

So, if at all people want to raise their concern, find the right target to
ask questions/get answers and not just another volunteer !!
Hope people will take up things in the right spirit.

Disclaimer: I have not met/talked to anyone from WMIN/WMF after this thread
has started. Just had a 1-2 minute casual discussion with Tito about the
mail thread itself.

Regards
-Sudhanwa



On Tue, Sep 4, 2018 at 11:15 AM Karthik Nadar  wrote:

> Dear WMIN EC/Rahul,
>
> I think the community is still waiting for an answer.
>
> My further points:
>
> 1. I appreciate Abhinav for defending the Chapter. Having been in the
> seat, I would personally incline to defend too, however it really has to
> make sense.
>
> 2. CIS has done it's role of helping WMIN as always. Perhaps request of
> support upto this scale should be available to public even before it is
> accepted. I think CIS should also have analysed that there were two members
> from WMIN EC were attending Wikimania.
>
> Would not like to deviate more. In complete sync with Asaf. WMIN is
> answerable to the community and to its members. No doubt here and it's been
> just too long, way too long.
>
> Dear WMIN, the only way to gain community confidence is to engage with
> them. Really surprised with activities like Wiki Loves Monuments which was
> always a Chapter supported activity is not supported by Chapter this year
> or correct me if I'm wrong.
>
>
>
> Regards,
> Karthik Nadar
> Ignore types, sent using my OnePlus
>
> On Fri 24 Aug, 2018, 1:22 AM Asaf Bartov,  wrote:
>
>> Dear Rahul,
>>
>> It's been 10 days since I've explicitly invited you to respond yourself
>> and to take responsibility for this -- whether a mistake or a
>> misunderstanding.  It would be good if you could make time to do so.  If
>> you are unable to put in the time, please at least drop a line
>> acknowledging you intend to, and suggest a date by which you'd be able to
>> respond.
>>
>> It seems to me people have been trying to assume good faith despite
>> concerns about the way this was handled, but this assumption of good faith
>> should not be abused indefinitely.  WMIN's EC and its president should be
>> accountable to the membership and the broader communities it exists to
>> support.  You agreed with this statement when I made it in our meeting in
>> Mumbai last year.  Do please show you meant it.
>>
>> Thank you,
>>
>> A.
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 13, 2018 at 11:04 PM Asaf Bartov 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Perhaps also helpful would be to hear some response from Mr. Deshmukh
>>> himself.
>>>
>>> Rahul, I think the concerns raised here at least merit your attention,
>>> and it's been two weeks. I encourage you to show up and discuss the
>>> concerns -- ideally, with a forthright description of what did and didn't
>>> happen around your travel to Wikimania, and with a forward-looking
>>> perspective of what might change to prevent such concerns in the future.
>>>
>>> Thank you.
>>>
>>>A.
>>>
>>> On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 7:06 AM, Bodhisattwa Mandal <
>>> bodhisattwa.rg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
 Hi Yohann,

 As I and Satdeep requested, it would be great if you share the
 invitation letter with all of us, so that we can know who invited WMIN
 president to attend the meeting.

 Thanks,
 Bodhisattwa


 On Wed, 8 Aug 2018, 14:58 Bodhisattwa Mandal, <

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Karthik Nadar]

Dear WMIN EC/Rahul,

I think the community is still waiting for an answer.

My further points:

1. I appreciate Abhinav for defending the Chapter. Having been in the seat,
I would personally incline to defend too, however it really has to make
sense.

2. CIS has done it's role of helping WMIN as always. Perhaps request of
support upto this scale should be available to public even before it is
accepted. I think CIS should also have analysed that there were two members
from WMIN EC were attending Wikimania.

Would not like to deviate more. In complete sync with Asaf. WMIN is
answerable to the community and to its members. No doubt here and it's been
just too long, way too long.

Dear WMIN, the only way to gain community confidence is to engage with
them. Really surprised with activities like Wiki Loves Monuments which was
always a Chapter supported activity is not supported by Chapter this year
or correct me if I'm wrong.



Regards,
Karthik Nadar
Ignore types, sent using my OnePlus

On Fri 24 Aug, 2018, 1:22 AM Asaf Bartov,  wrote:

> Dear Rahul,
>
> It's been 10 days since I've explicitly invited you to respond yourself
> and to take responsibility for this -- whether a mistake or a
> misunderstanding.  It would be good if you could make time to do so.  If
> you are unable to put in the time, please at least drop a line
> acknowledging you intend to, and suggest a date by which you'd be able to
> respond.
>
> It seems to me people have been trying to assume good faith despite
> concerns about the way this was handled, but this assumption of good faith
> should not be abused indefinitely.  WMIN's EC and its president should be
> accountable to the membership and the broader communities it exists to
> support.  You agreed with this statement when I made it in our meeting in
> Mumbai last year.  Do please show you meant it.
>
> Thank you,
>
> A.
>
> On Mon, Aug 13, 2018 at 11:04 PM Asaf Bartov 
> wrote:
>
>> Perhaps also helpful would be to hear some response from Mr. Deshmukh
>> himself.
>>
>> Rahul, I think the concerns raised here at least merit your attention,
>> and it's been two weeks. I encourage you to show up and discuss the
>> concerns -- ideally, with a forthright description of what did and didn't
>> happen around your travel to Wikimania, and with a forward-looking
>> perspective of what might change to prevent such concerns in the future.
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>>A.
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 7:06 AM, Bodhisattwa Mandal <
>> bodhisattwa.rg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Yohann,
>>>
>>> As I and Satdeep requested, it would be great if you share the
>>> invitation letter with all of us, so that we can know who invited WMIN
>>> president to attend the meeting.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Bodhisattwa
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, 8 Aug 2018, 14:58 Bodhisattwa Mandal, <
>>> bodhisattwa.rg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
 Hi Yohann,

 Thanks for the detailed reply. Much appreciated.

 So, to summarize your mail, WMIN president got written invitation to
 speak in the informal meeting of chairpersons during Wikimania and WMIN
 officially requested CIS-A2K to fund him to attend the meeting without
 depriving any Wikimedian in waiting list for scholarship and CIS-A2K funded
 him to attend the entire Wikimania. Right? So, according to WMIN, this was
 a valid request from WMIN to CIS-A2K, I presume, as you are defending about
 what WMIN did.

 Assuming good faith, I am believing all your words. Still, I don't
 understand, why only 1 volunteer in the waiting list attended the
 conference and next 2 in the queue were not funded. I am not talking about
 Jayanta Nath and Aliva Sahoo, they both declined, I am talking about the
 next 2 people in the queue.

 Also, can you please share the letter of invitation, so that we know,
 who sent the letter and everything becomes transparent.

 By the way, I never said, chairpersons meeting was any random meeting,
 I said it was informal meeting, like stewards meeting, asian meeting etc.
 Informal means which is not related to Wikimania official program, there is
 a difference between random and informal.

 Echoing Manavpreet's valid query, can a Wikimedia volunteer with no
 attachment to the chapter get similar special treatment of getting full
 funds to attend Wikimania even if he/she doesn't get a Wikimania
 scholarship but his/her presentation is selected and/or he/she gets
 official invitation to speak in an informal meeting during Wikimania. Now,
 from your answer, I hope there is no doubt about that volunteers will
 receive such special treatment, because after all, the chapter does not
 distinguish between board members and the volunteer community and we have a
 prior example of WMIN president to cite. That is a great news for the
 volunteer community as it opens up new opportunity for the communities to
 participate in the conference. 

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Asaf Bartov]

Dear Rahul,

It's been 10 days since I've explicitly invited you to respond yourself and
to take responsibility for this -- whether a mistake or a
misunderstanding.  It would be good if you could make time to do so.  If
you are unable to put in the time, please at least drop a line
acknowledging you intend to, and suggest a date by which you'd be able to
respond.

It seems to me people have been trying to assume good faith despite
concerns about the way this was handled, but this assumption of good faith
should not be abused indefinitely.  WMIN's EC and its president should be
accountable to the membership and the broader communities it exists to
support.  You agreed with this statement when I made it in our meeting in
Mumbai last year.  Do please show you meant it.

Thank you,

A.

On Mon, Aug 13, 2018 at 11:04 PM Asaf Bartov  wrote:

> Perhaps also helpful would be to hear some response from Mr. Deshmukh
> himself.
>
> Rahul, I think the concerns raised here at least merit your attention, and
> it's been two weeks. I encourage you to show up and discuss the concerns --
> ideally, with a forthright description of what did and didn't happen around
> your travel to Wikimania, and with a forward-looking perspective of what
> might change to prevent such concerns in the future.
>
> Thank you.
>
>A.
>
> On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 7:06 AM, Bodhisattwa Mandal <
> bodhisattwa.rg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Yohann,
>>
>> As I and Satdeep requested, it would be great if you share the invitation
>> letter with all of us, so that we can know who invited WMIN president to
>> attend the meeting.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Bodhisattwa
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 8 Aug 2018, 14:58 Bodhisattwa Mandal, <
>> bodhisattwa.rg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Yohann,
>>>
>>> Thanks for the detailed reply. Much appreciated.
>>>
>>> So, to summarize your mail, WMIN president got written invitation to
>>> speak in the informal meeting of chairpersons during Wikimania and WMIN
>>> officially requested CIS-A2K to fund him to attend the meeting without
>>> depriving any Wikimedian in waiting list for scholarship and CIS-A2K funded
>>> him to attend the entire Wikimania. Right? So, according to WMIN, this was
>>> a valid request from WMIN to CIS-A2K, I presume, as you are defending about
>>> what WMIN did.
>>>
>>> Assuming good faith, I am believing all your words. Still, I don't
>>> understand, why only 1 volunteer in the waiting list attended the
>>> conference and next 2 in the queue were not funded. I am not talking about
>>> Jayanta Nath and Aliva Sahoo, they both declined, I am talking about the
>>> next 2 people in the queue.
>>>
>>> Also, can you please share the letter of invitation, so that we know,
>>> who sent the letter and everything becomes transparent.
>>>
>>> By the way, I never said, chairpersons meeting was any random meeting, I
>>> said it was informal meeting, like stewards meeting, asian meeting etc.
>>> Informal means which is not related to Wikimania official program, there is
>>> a difference between random and informal.
>>>
>>> Echoing Manavpreet's valid query, can a Wikimedia volunteer with no
>>> attachment to the chapter get similar special treatment of getting full
>>> funds to attend Wikimania even if he/she doesn't get a Wikimania
>>> scholarship but his/her presentation is selected and/or he/she gets
>>> official invitation to speak in an informal meeting during Wikimania. Now,
>>> from your answer, I hope there is no doubt about that volunteers will
>>> receive such special treatment, because after all, the chapter does not
>>> distinguish between board members and the volunteer community and we have a
>>> prior example of WMIN president to cite. That is a great news for the
>>> volunteer community as it opens up new opportunity for the communities to
>>> participate in the conference. Alas! this we didn't knew earlier, we could
>>> have sent more Wikimedians this year, but it's ok, the community will be
>>> informed for next year and I hope, more such requests will be sent to WMIN
>>> and CIS-A2K from volunteers in future. Of course, we will keep everything
>>> open and transparent, unlike this time.
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Bodhisattwa
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, 8 Aug 2018, 12:42 Yohann Thomas,  wrote:
>>>
 Dear Bodhi

 I still feel, you haven't read my email word to word. I would request
 you to go by the 24 hr email rule (if not more).. which I personally do
 many times.

 Pardon my grammar & also my line to line reply, as I'm relying on my
 phone.. Since I'm traveling..

 I will again try to explain point wise (where ever possible) & try my
 best to clear all doubts.

 1) Mr Rahul Deshmukh, did not visit Wikimania, on scholarship, or to
 simply attend a random meeting. He was invited to be one of the speakers.
 You can find this on the agenda of it, during Wikimania.. followed by notes
 which carry a description. The ‘Conflict Resolution’ theme on 

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Asaf Bartov]

Perhaps also helpful would be to hear some response from Mr. Deshmukh
himself.

Rahul, I think the concerns raised here at least merit your attention, and
it's been two weeks. I encourage you to show up and discuss the concerns --
ideally, with a forthright description of what did and didn't happen around
your travel to Wikimania, and with a forward-looking perspective of what
might change to prevent such concerns in the future.

Thank you.

   A.

On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 7:06 AM, Bodhisattwa Mandal <
bodhisattwa.rg...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Yohann,
>
> As I and Satdeep requested, it would be great if you share the invitation
> letter with all of us, so that we can know who invited WMIN president to
> attend the meeting.
>
> Thanks,
> Bodhisattwa
>
>
> On Wed, 8 Aug 2018, 14:58 Bodhisattwa Mandal, 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Yohann,
>>
>> Thanks for the detailed reply. Much appreciated.
>>
>> So, to summarize your mail, WMIN president got written invitation to
>> speak in the informal meeting of chairpersons during Wikimania and WMIN
>> officially requested CIS-A2K to fund him to attend the meeting without
>> depriving any Wikimedian in waiting list for scholarship and CIS-A2K funded
>> him to attend the entire Wikimania. Right? So, according to WMIN, this was
>> a valid request from WMIN to CIS-A2K, I presume, as you are defending about
>> what WMIN did.
>>
>> Assuming good faith, I am believing all your words. Still, I don't
>> understand, why only 1 volunteer in the waiting list attended the
>> conference and next 2 in the queue were not funded. I am not talking about
>> Jayanta Nath and Aliva Sahoo, they both declined, I am talking about the
>> next 2 people in the queue.
>>
>> Also, can you please share the letter of invitation, so that we know, who
>> sent the letter and everything becomes transparent.
>>
>> By the way, I never said, chairpersons meeting was any random meeting, I
>> said it was informal meeting, like stewards meeting, asian meeting etc.
>> Informal means which is not related to Wikimania official program, there is
>> a difference between random and informal.
>>
>> Echoing Manavpreet's valid query, can a Wikimedia volunteer with no
>> attachment to the chapter get similar special treatment of getting full
>> funds to attend Wikimania even if he/she doesn't get a Wikimania
>> scholarship but his/her presentation is selected and/or he/she gets
>> official invitation to speak in an informal meeting during Wikimania. Now,
>> from your answer, I hope there is no doubt about that volunteers will
>> receive such special treatment, because after all, the chapter does not
>> distinguish between board members and the volunteer community and we have a
>> prior example of WMIN president to cite. That is a great news for the
>> volunteer community as it opens up new opportunity for the communities to
>> participate in the conference. Alas! this we didn't knew earlier, we could
>> have sent more Wikimedians this year, but it's ok, the community will be
>> informed for next year and I hope, more such requests will be sent to WMIN
>> and CIS-A2K from volunteers in future. Of course, we will keep everything
>> open and transparent, unlike this time.
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Bodhisattwa
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 8 Aug 2018, 12:42 Yohann Thomas,  wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Bodhi
>>>
>>> I still feel, you haven't read my email word to word. I would request
>>> you to go by the 24 hr email rule (if not more).. which I personally do
>>> many times.
>>>
>>> Pardon my grammar & also my line to line reply, as I'm relying on my
>>> phone.. Since I'm traveling..
>>>
>>> I will again try to explain point wise (where ever possible) & try my
>>> best to clear all doubts.
>>>
>>> 1) Mr Rahul Deshmukh, did not visit Wikimania, on scholarship, or to
>>> simply attend a random meeting. He was invited to be one of the speakers.
>>> You can find this on the agenda of it, during Wikimania.. followed by notes
>>> which carry a description. The ‘Conflict Resolution’ theme on which he was
>>> a speaker. This is generally a very long topic, on which Wikimedia
>>> Affiliates intends to discuss and deliberate over a period of time. This
>>> theme would be subsequently carried forward in upcoming Chairpersons Meetup
>>> as well, as mentioned on the Meta.
>>>
>>> If your memory serves you right.. During the Wiki Conference India 2016,
>>> where you were also one of the organizers (& the both of us deliberated on
>>> various topics quite extensively) , several community members who had not
>>> applied for the scholarship but had later approached CIS-A2K for the same
>>> were awarded appropriately.
>>>
>>> CIS-A2K had later informed the community about this decision.
>>>
>>> In good faith, we assumed that, CIS-A2K did not inform the community
>>> without having any specific interest in the exercise. Wikimedia India would
>>> also like to place on record, that it could have initiated the process of
>>> informing on its own. Wikimedia India would like to 

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Bodhisattwa Mandal]

Hi Yohann,

As I and Satdeep requested, it would be great if you share the invitation
letter with all of us, so that we can know who invited WMIN president to
attend the meeting.

Thanks,
Bodhisattwa


On Wed, 8 Aug 2018, 14:58 Bodhisattwa Mandal, 
wrote:

> Hi Yohann,
>
> Thanks for the detailed reply. Much appreciated.
>
> So, to summarize your mail, WMIN president got written invitation to speak
> in the informal meeting of chairpersons during Wikimania and WMIN
> officially requested CIS-A2K to fund him to attend the meeting without
> depriving any Wikimedian in waiting list for scholarship and CIS-A2K funded
> him to attend the entire Wikimania. Right? So, according to WMIN, this was
> a valid request from WMIN to CIS-A2K, I presume, as you are defending about
> what WMIN did.
>
> Assuming good faith, I am believing all your words. Still, I don't
> understand, why only 1 volunteer in the waiting list attended the
> conference and next 2 in the queue were not funded. I am not talking about
> Jayanta Nath and Aliva Sahoo, they both declined, I am talking about the
> next 2 people in the queue.
>
> Also, can you please share the letter of invitation, so that we know, who
> sent the letter and everything becomes transparent.
>
> By the way, I never said, chairpersons meeting was any random meeting, I
> said it was informal meeting, like stewards meeting, asian meeting etc.
> Informal means which is not related to Wikimania official program, there is
> a difference between random and informal.
>
> Echoing Manavpreet's valid query, can a Wikimedia volunteer with no
> attachment to the chapter get similar special treatment of getting full
> funds to attend Wikimania even if he/she doesn't get a Wikimania
> scholarship but his/her presentation is selected and/or he/she gets
> official invitation to speak in an informal meeting during Wikimania. Now,
> from your answer, I hope there is no doubt about that volunteers will
> receive such special treatment, because after all, the chapter does not
> distinguish between board members and the volunteer community and we have a
> prior example of WMIN president to cite. That is a great news for the
> volunteer community as it opens up new opportunity for the communities to
> participate in the conference. Alas! this we didn't knew earlier, we could
> have sent more Wikimedians this year, but it's ok, the community will be
> informed for next year and I hope, more such requests will be sent to WMIN
> and CIS-A2K from volunteers in future. Of course, we will keep everything
> open and transparent, unlike this time.
>
>
> Thanks,
> Bodhisattwa
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, 8 Aug 2018, 12:42 Yohann Thomas,  wrote:
>
>> Dear Bodhi
>>
>> I still feel, you haven't read my email word to word. I would request you
>> to go by the 24 hr email rule (if not more).. which I personally do many
>> times.
>>
>> Pardon my grammar & also my line to line reply, as I'm relying on my
>> phone.. Since I'm traveling..
>>
>> I will again try to explain point wise (where ever possible) & try my
>> best to clear all doubts.
>>
>> 1) Mr Rahul Deshmukh, did not visit Wikimania, on scholarship, or to
>> simply attend a random meeting. He was invited to be one of the speakers.
>> You can find this on the agenda of it, during Wikimania.. followed by notes
>> which carry a description. The ‘Conflict Resolution’ theme on which he was
>> a speaker. This is generally a very long topic, on which Wikimedia
>> Affiliates intends to discuss and deliberate over a period of time. This
>> theme would be subsequently carried forward in upcoming Chairpersons Meetup
>> as well, as mentioned on the Meta.
>>
>> If your memory serves you right.. During the Wiki Conference India 2016,
>> where you were also one of the organizers (& the both of us deliberated on
>> various topics quite extensively) , several community members who had not
>> applied for the scholarship but had later approached CIS-A2K for the same
>> were awarded appropriately.
>>
>> CIS-A2K had later informed the community about this decision.
>>
>> In good faith, we assumed that, CIS-A2K did not inform the community
>> without having any specific interest in the exercise. Wikimedia India would
>> also like to place on record, that it could have initiated the process of
>> informing on its own. Wikimedia India would like to put on record, in times
>> to come not only it would inform the community but also engage with its
>> community members on decision making for such exercises.
>>
>> 2)   Mr Rahul deshmukh had received an on record written invitation to
>> attend the meeting and be a speaker on ‘Conflict Resolution’. The above
>> said invitation was shown to CIS-A2K, when requesting them for travel
>> assistance.
>>
>> *I have not stated anywhere that he received an invitation during the
>> Chairpersons meeting at WMCON18*. He had attended Wikimedia Conference
>> 2018 & in it had participated in the movement strategy discussion. It was
>> during the movement 

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Bodhisattwa Mandal]

Hi Yohann,

Thanks for the detailed reply. Much appreciated.

So, to summarize your mail, WMIN president got written invitation to speak
in the informal meeting of chairpersons during Wikimania and WMIN
officially requested CIS-A2K to fund him to attend the meeting without
depriving any Wikimedian in waiting list for scholarship and CIS-A2K funded
him to attend the entire Wikimania. Right? So, according to WMIN, this was
a valid request from WMIN to CIS-A2K, I presume, as you are defending about
what WMIN did.

Assuming good faith, I am believing all your words. Still, I don't
understand, why only 1 volunteer in the waiting list attended the
conference and next 2 in the queue were not funded. I am not talking about
Jayanta Nath and Aliva Sahoo, they both declined, I am talking about the
next 2 people in the queue.

Also, can you please share the letter of invitation, so that we know, who
sent the letter and everything becomes transparent.

By the way, I never said, chairpersons meeting was any random meeting, I
said it was informal meeting, like stewards meeting, asian meeting etc.
Informal means which is not related to Wikimania official program, there is
a difference between random and informal.

Echoing Manavpreet's valid query, can a Wikimedia volunteer with no
attachment to the chapter get similar special treatment of getting full
funds to attend Wikimania even if he/she doesn't get a Wikimania
scholarship but his/her presentation is selected and/or he/she gets
official invitation to speak in an informal meeting during Wikimania. Now,
from your answer, I hope there is no doubt about that volunteers will
receive such special treatment, because after all, the chapter does not
distinguish between board members and the volunteer community and we have a
prior example of WMIN president to cite. That is a great news for the
volunteer community as it opens up new opportunity for the communities to
participate in the conference. Alas! this we didn't knew earlier, we could
have sent more Wikimedians this year, but it's ok, the community will be
informed for next year and I hope, more such requests will be sent to WMIN
and CIS-A2K from volunteers in future. Of course, we will keep everything
open and transparent, unlike this time.


Thanks,
Bodhisattwa




On Wed, 8 Aug 2018, 12:42 Yohann Thomas,  wrote:

> Dear Bodhi
>
> I still feel, you haven't read my email word to word. I would request you
> to go by the 24 hr email rule (if not more).. which I personally do many
> times.
>
> Pardon my grammar & also my line to line reply, as I'm relying on my
> phone.. Since I'm traveling..
>
> I will again try to explain point wise (where ever possible) & try my best
> to clear all doubts.
>
> 1) Mr Rahul Deshmukh, did not visit Wikimania, on scholarship, or to
> simply attend a random meeting. He was invited to be one of the speakers.
> You can find this on the agenda of it, during Wikimania.. followed by notes
> which carry a description. The ‘Conflict Resolution’ theme on which he was
> a speaker. This is generally a very long topic, on which Wikimedia
> Affiliates intends to discuss and deliberate over a period of time. This
> theme would be subsequently carried forward in upcoming Chairpersons Meetup
> as well, as mentioned on the Meta.
>
> If your memory serves you right.. During the Wiki Conference India 2016,
> where you were also one of the organizers (& the both of us deliberated on
> various topics quite extensively) , several community members who had not
> applied for the scholarship but had later approached CIS-A2K for the same
> were awarded appropriately.
>
> CIS-A2K had later informed the community about this decision.
>
> In good faith, we assumed that, CIS-A2K did not inform the community
> without having any specific interest in the exercise. Wikimedia India would
> also like to place on record, that it could have initiated the process of
> informing on its own. Wikimedia India would like to put on record, in times
> to come not only it would inform the community but also engage with its
> community members on decision making for such exercises.
>
> 2)   Mr Rahul deshmukh had received an on record written invitation to
> attend the meeting and be a speaker on ‘Conflict Resolution’. The above
> said invitation was shown to CIS-A2K, when requesting them for travel
> assistance.
>
> *I have not stated anywhere that he received an invitation during the
> Chairpersons meeting at WMCON18*. He had attended Wikimedia Conference
> 2018 & in it had participated in the movement strategy discussion. It was
> during the movement strategy discussion that he received the invitation.
>
> 3)The chapter has full faith and belief in all its board members
> in both, individual and collective levels. This invitation was to the
> particular individual based on his expertise in the chapter and in
> the movement. Chapter has never considered any of its board members unfit
> to represent it. Personally, I feel Bodhi, it 

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Jayantilal Kothari]

Hello,
I edit on Telugu Wikipedia & Wikidata. I generally only read and not write
on mails.
Why so much negativity taking place?
Earlier it was about reports. When reports are there the issue is about
meeting was not important. Let us is good faith assume that note has been
taken and transparency in future will be maintained.

Thanks,
జయంతిలాల్

On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 12:42 PM, Yohann Thomas  wrote:

> Dear Bodhi
>
> I still feel, you haven't read my email word to word. I would request you
> to go by the 24 hr email rule (if not more).. which I personally do many
> times.
>
> Pardon my grammar & also my line to line reply, as I'm relying on my
> phone.. Since I'm traveling..
>
> I will again try to explain point wise (where ever possible) & try my best
> to clear all doubts.
>
> 1) Mr Rahul Deshmukh, did not visit Wikimania, on scholarship, or to
> simply attend a random meeting. He was invited to be one of the speakers.
> You can find this on the agenda of it, during Wikimania.. followed by notes
> which carry a description. The ‘Conflict Resolution’ theme on which he was
> a speaker. This is generally a very long topic, on which Wikimedia
> Affiliates intends to discuss and deliberate over a period of time. This
> theme would be subsequently carried forward in upcoming Chairpersons Meetup
> as well, as mentioned on the Meta.
>
> If your memory serves you right.. During the Wiki Conference India 2016,
> where you were also one of the organizers (& the both of us deliberated on
> various topics quite extensively) , several community members who had not
> applied for the scholarship but had later approached CIS-A2K for the same
> were awarded appropriately.
>
> CIS-A2K had later informed the community about this decision.
>
> In good faith, we assumed that, CIS-A2K did not inform the community
> without having any specific interest in the exercise. Wikimedia India would
> also like to place on record, that it could have initiated the process of
> informing on its own. Wikimedia India would like to put on record, in times
> to come not only it would inform the community but also engage with its
> community members on decision making for such exercises.
>
> 2)   Mr Rahul deshmukh had received an on record written invitation to
> attend the meeting and be a speaker on ‘Conflict Resolution’. The above
> said invitation was shown to CIS-A2K, when requesting them for travel
> assistance.
>
> *I have not stated anywhere that he received an invitation during the
> Chairpersons meeting at WMCON18*. He had attended Wikimedia Conference
> 2018 & in it had participated in the movement strategy discussion. It was
> during the movement strategy discussion that he received the invitation.
>
> 3)The chapter has full faith and belief in all its board members
> in both, individual and collective levels. This invitation was to the
> particular individual based on his expertise in the chapter and in
> the movement. Chapter has never considered any of its board members unfit
> to represent it. Personally, I feel Bodhi, it is very unfair on your part,
> to even make such allegation that the chapter would even, consider such
> a scenario. A well wisher of the chapter would never make such comments.
>
> 4)   The Chapter is not of an opinion that the community members should be
> deprived of scholarship. Wikimedia India would like to put emphasis that
> during its grant tenure, Wikimedia India used to provide two sponsorship to
> its community members & we value the joy, which a volunteer gets, when he
> is informed that, he is going to Wikimania.
>
> However, in this scenario , none was deprived on anything. As I have
> repeatedly said, Mr Rahul Deshmukh was invited to attend and give a talk on
> conflict resolution. Since it was about the affiliates & partnerships
> amongst them, the chapter approached another affiliate CIS-A2K and CCing
> the chapter board members
>
> 5) The Chapter does not make any distinction between its board members and
> its community members. Unlike CIS-A2K, Wikimedia India board members are
> unpaid volunteers, similar to its community members, who give their time &
> effort towards the community.
>
> To Sum the entire email, the chapter has made a valuable learning, of
> engaging the community in a more effective way in the future.
>
> Regards,
> Yohann Thomas
> Secretary
> Wikimedia India
>
> P.S. - Neither your previous email, or any other email can affect our
> friendship, Bodhi .Our passion & commitment towards the movement, is what
> binds us :)
>
> 
> On Sun 5 Aug, 2018, 12:27 Bodhisattwa Mandal, 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Yohann,
>>
>> Thanks for your reply, much appreciated.
>>
>>
>> I have read your previous e-mail very carefully, without missing a single
>> word.
>>
>> My question still stands. Many apologies, if I have not been able to make
>> it clear in my previous mails, so I am adding some more perspective.
>>
>> 1) Chairpersons meeting in Wikimania is informal. It's not related to 

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Yohann Thomas]

Dear Bodhi

I still feel, you haven't read my email word to word. I would request you
to go by the 24 hr email rule (if not more).. which I personally do many
times.

Pardon my grammar & also my line to line reply, as I'm relying on my
phone.. Since I'm traveling..

I will again try to explain point wise (where ever possible) & try my best
to clear all doubts.

1) Mr Rahul Deshmukh, did not visit Wikimania, on scholarship, or to simply
attend a random meeting. He was invited to be one of the speakers. You can
find this on the agenda of it, during Wikimania.. followed by notes which
carry a description. The ‘Conflict Resolution’ theme on which he was a
speaker. This is generally a very long topic, on which Wikimedia Affiliates
intends to discuss and deliberate over a period of time. This theme would
be subsequently carried forward in upcoming Chairpersons Meetup as well, as
mentioned on the Meta.

If your memory serves you right.. During the Wiki Conference India 2016,
where you were also one of the organizers (& the both of us deliberated on
various topics quite extensively) , several community members who had not
applied for the scholarship but had later approached CIS-A2K for the same
were awarded appropriately.

CIS-A2K had later informed the community about this decision.

In good faith, we assumed that, CIS-A2K did not inform the community
without having any specific interest in the exercise. Wikimedia India would
also like to place on record, that it could have initiated the process of
informing on its own. Wikimedia India would like to put on record, in times
to come not only it would inform the community but also engage with its
community members on decision making for such exercises.

2)   Mr Rahul deshmukh had received an on record written invitation to
attend the meeting and be a speaker on ‘Conflict Resolution’. The above
said invitation was shown to CIS-A2K, when requesting them for travel
assistance.

*I have not stated anywhere that he received an invitation during the
Chairpersons meeting at WMCON18*. He had attended Wikimedia Conference 2018
& in it had participated in the movement strategy discussion. It was during
the movement strategy discussion that he received the invitation.

3)The chapter has full faith and belief in all its board members
in both, individual and collective levels. This invitation was to the
particular individual based on his expertise in the chapter and in
the movement. Chapter has never considered any of its board members unfit
to represent it. Personally, I feel Bodhi, it is very unfair on your part,
to even make such allegation that the chapter would even, consider such
a scenario. A well wisher of the chapter would never make such comments.

4)   The Chapter is not of an opinion that the community members should be
deprived of scholarship. Wikimedia India would like to put emphasis that
during its grant tenure, Wikimedia India used to provide two sponsorship to
its community members & we value the joy, which a volunteer gets, when he
is informed that, he is going to Wikimania.

However, in this scenario , none was deprived on anything. As I have
repeatedly said, Mr Rahul Deshmukh was invited to attend and give a talk on
conflict resolution. Since it was about the affiliates & partnerships
amongst them, the chapter approached another affiliate CIS-A2K and CCing
the chapter board members

5) The Chapter does not make any distinction between its board members and
its community members. Unlike CIS-A2K, Wikimedia India board members are
unpaid volunteers, similar to its community members, who give their time &
effort towards the community.

To Sum the entire email, the chapter has made a valuable learning, of
engaging the community in a more effective way in the future.

Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India

P.S. - Neither your previous email, or any other email can affect our
friendship, Bodhi .Our passion & commitment towards the movement, is what
binds us :)


On Sun 5 Aug, 2018, 12:27 Bodhisattwa Mandal, 
wrote:

> Hi Yohann,
>
> Thanks for your reply, much appreciated.
>
>
> I have read your previous e-mail very carefully, without missing a single
> word.
>
> My question still stands. Many apologies, if I have not been able to make
> it clear in my previous mails, so I am adding some more perspective.
>
> 1) Chairpersons meeting in Wikimania is informal. It's not related to the
> main program of Wikimania. For example, like many other informal meetups,
> there happens to be a steward meetup every year in Wikimania. Now, if one
> steward, who have not received scholarship, is invited in the meetup, then
> he/she will have to spend his own money to attend the meeting. Same
> principle lies here, participation for chairpersons meetup is not
> eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal meetup. Can
> you please provide some documentation, where it is written that scholarship
> would be provided to attend informal meetups? 

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Bodhisattwa Mandal]

Thanks Yohann for creating separate thread for discussion other than the
main topic of this thread.

Sticking to the thread topic, I am more eager to get a reply from WMIN for
my 5 questions, which I have put in this thread yesterday. I hope you will
find them among the diverted, off-topic and unrelated discussions going on.

My questions were pretty straightforward, and I do expect straightforward
answers for them, not receiving them till now is obviously frustrating.

Eagerly waiting for your reply
Bodhisattwa

On Mon, 6 Aug 2018, 09:17 Yohann Thomas,  wrote:

> Dear Manavpreet
>
> You have been part of the Indian community for a few years. But I'm not
> surprised, you don't know, why the chapter is not giving as much  support
> or training to the community, as CIS-A2K does.
>
> I will answer this question on a separate thread on the India Mailing list
> which should be informative for you & other community members who have such
> doubts.
>
> Regards,
> Yohann
>
> On Fri 3 Aug, 2018, 16:54 Dr. Manavpreet Kaur, <
> dr.manavpreetk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Asaf, Wikimedia India community members and CIS A2K Team,
>>
>> I am sorry for intervening in this whole discussion but I feel the
>> discussion is deviating from the primary concern as we have received
>> another mail where a number of concerns have been raised in response to the
>> primary issue raised by Bodhi. My subscription was faulty and thanks to
>> Sailesh who fixed it and I got a digest of emails. From what I've learned
>> through the emails, Wikimedia India representatives are usually sent to
>> attend the annual wiki gatherings like Wikimedia Conference and this time
>> it was Wikimania. I am sorry to state that we (community) have never been
>> approached by anyone from the Chapter to discuss issues, events, Training
>> or to offer some assistance.  We have only one point of contact for all our
>> issues and plans and that is CIS A2K Team. When Wikimedia India Chapter is
>> not taking initiatives to bring the communities together or to take the
>> movement ahead, then what is the purpose of their representatives attending
>> these events, what do they have to impart to other wikimedians there?  and
>> how are they using the learnings in progressing the movement?
>> Can someone please clearly address these questions and then we can
>> discuss the other issues raised in the different thread.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Manavpreet Kaur
>>
>> On Fri, 3 Aug 2018 at 3:42 PM, Amritasya Putra <
>> iamamritasyapu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Why doesn’t my email reach this list? I have been a member for, like
>>> three years.
>>>
>>> On Fri, 3 Aug 2018 at 10:00 AM, Asaf Bartov 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Certainly, we can wait. But please understand I did not assert WMIN (or
 anyone) needs to apologize. Please reread and you'll find I posed it in a
 conditional, as *one* possible outcome of resolving Bodhisattwa's concern.
 I also described another possible scenario.

 A.

 On Aug 3, 2018 06:21, "Abhinav srivastava" 
 wrote:

 Hello Asaf,

 In consent with my last mail on the thread, please be assured, no
 discussion whatsoever will take place until WMIN replies to the concerns,
 the community takes its time to question, inspect and interrogate the
 matter. Yes, all other issues will be raised on a separate thread and in
 good spirit only after this matter is resolved. As Subhashish pointed out,
 the issue is not about one person or an institution but bettering the
 process. That is essentially the reason they had been brought up.

 Asaf, It is always nice to hear from you. You have always followed the
 Indian community closely and helped it in whatever way. We all appreciate
 that.  I would look forward to hearing about the better methodological
 processes of debates and discussions on resolving community matter. This
 would also help us in the future course. The Indian community is
 progressing in resolving its disputes in a peaceful and coherent manner and
 we wish to learn more of this.

 In continuity with my second paragraph, it would be great if you guide
 us on this. This would make the community inclusive and self-sustaining. I
 am not very happy that when the matter is sub-judice in the people's court,
 you holding WMF office, is talking about on ways WMIN can apologize. To
 re-iterate, provide us with methodological solutions and leave the
 community to decide.

 Also, I am not sure since you holding WMF office should advise about
 distractions.concerning the second point clearly deals with conflicts in
 Wikimedia Foundation policy. Of course, the platform could be a reason and
 for that, we will make sure we do not jump across topics. In fact, when we
 move ahead on those issues (only after resolving the principal problem) I
 would encourage you to be a participant (representing WMF). There 

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Yohann Thomas]

Dear Manavpreet

You have been part of the Indian community for a few years. But I'm not
surprised, you don't know, why the chapter is not giving as much  support
or training to the community, as CIS-A2K does.

I will answer this question on a separate thread on the India Mailing list
which should be informative for you & other community members who have such
doubts.

Regards,
Yohann

On Fri 3 Aug, 2018, 16:54 Dr. Manavpreet Kaur, 
wrote:

> Hi Asaf, Wikimedia India community members and CIS A2K Team,
>
> I am sorry for intervening in this whole discussion but I feel the
> discussion is deviating from the primary concern as we have received
> another mail where a number of concerns have been raised in response to the
> primary issue raised by Bodhi. My subscription was faulty and thanks to
> Sailesh who fixed it and I got a digest of emails. From what I've learned
> through the emails, Wikimedia India representatives are usually sent to
> attend the annual wiki gatherings like Wikimedia Conference and this time
> it was Wikimania. I am sorry to state that we (community) have never been
> approached by anyone from the Chapter to discuss issues, events, Training
> or to offer some assistance.  We have only one point of contact for all our
> issues and plans and that is CIS A2K Team. When Wikimedia India Chapter is
> not taking initiatives to bring the communities together or to take the
> movement ahead, then what is the purpose of their representatives attending
> these events, what do they have to impart to other wikimedians there?  and
> how are they using the learnings in progressing the movement?
> Can someone please clearly address these questions and then we can discuss
> the other issues raised in the different thread.
>
> Regards,
> Manavpreet Kaur
>
> On Fri, 3 Aug 2018 at 3:42 PM, Amritasya Putra <
> iamamritasyapu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Why doesn’t my email reach this list? I have been a member for, like
>> three years.
>>
>> On Fri, 3 Aug 2018 at 10:00 AM, Asaf Bartov 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Certainly, we can wait. But please understand I did not assert WMIN (or
>>> anyone) needs to apologize. Please reread and you'll find I posed it in a
>>> conditional, as *one* possible outcome of resolving Bodhisattwa's concern.
>>> I also described another possible scenario.
>>>
>>> A.
>>>
>>> On Aug 3, 2018 06:21, "Abhinav srivastava"  wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello Asaf,
>>>
>>> In consent with my last mail on the thread, please be assured, no
>>> discussion whatsoever will take place until WMIN replies to the concerns,
>>> the community takes its time to question, inspect and interrogate the
>>> matter. Yes, all other issues will be raised on a separate thread and in
>>> good spirit only after this matter is resolved. As Subhashish pointed out,
>>> the issue is not about one person or an institution but bettering the
>>> process. That is essentially the reason they had been brought up.
>>>
>>> Asaf, It is always nice to hear from you. You have always followed the
>>> Indian community closely and helped it in whatever way. We all appreciate
>>> that.  I would look forward to hearing about the better methodological
>>> processes of debates and discussions on resolving community matter. This
>>> would also help us in the future course. The Indian community is
>>> progressing in resolving its disputes in a peaceful and coherent manner and
>>> we wish to learn more of this.
>>>
>>> In continuity with my second paragraph, it would be great if you guide
>>> us on this. This would make the community inclusive and self-sustaining. I
>>> am not very happy that when the matter is sub-judice in the people's court,
>>> you holding WMF office, is talking about on ways WMIN can apologize. To
>>> re-iterate, provide us with methodological solutions and leave the
>>> community to decide.
>>>
>>> Also, I am not sure since you holding WMF office should advise about
>>> distractions.concerning the second point clearly deals with conflicts in
>>> Wikimedia Foundation policy. Of course, the platform could be a reason and
>>> for that, we will make sure we do not jump across topics. In fact, when we
>>> move ahead on those issues (only after resolving the principal problem) I
>>> would encourage you to be a participant (representing WMF). There are few
>>> essentially questions concerning few community members regarding WMF
>>> policies which I may share with you personally, whatever you find
>>> appropriate can be further asked on the community mailing list.
>>>
>>> At last, I have spoken to different EC members. Two EC members have also
>>> written to me stating that they will reply about WMIN stand. They have
>>> assured me that they will reply as soon as possible. As a past EC member, I
>>> would like to tell, finalizing a WMIN stand takes some time since EC
>>> members need to discuss, deliberate and then provide to their consent. As
>>> you all are aware unlike CIS-A2K or WMF, Wikimedia India is a voluntary
>>> organization, EC 

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Dr. Manavpreet Kaur]

Hi Abhinav
Thanks for the clarification. It’s not in other list because we emailed
them about the scholarship status and requested to withdraw the submission.
Again, this wasn’t a complaint, just a concern about lack of information on
such financial assistance program. Anyhow, we had many other active
Wikimedians in the group who are working on the plans and taking the
movement ahead :)
Thanks
Manav

On Mon, 6 Aug 2018 at 12:26 AM, Abhinav srivastava 
wrote:

> Hi Dr Manavpreet,
>
> It is unfortunate that you couldn’t present. Yes ! Transparency and
> effective messaging that one can approach affiliates for grants, in cases
> has been lacking in our community. It is not about any office bearer, I am
> sure CIS would have been neutral in making this judgement.
>
> Also, let’s take your SAARC idea ahead.
>
> Is this your submission ?
>
> https://wikimania2017.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submissions/Past,_present_and_Future_of_Wiki_Movement_in_Developing_countries:_A_SAARC_perspective
>
>
> I am not sure because it says submission under review. For selected
> submissions you can find another category. Maybe, I am wrong on this one.
> The way they have designed and put out categories it is difficult to sort.
> It could be that you didn’t receive the scholarship hence they didn’t put a
> tick mark.
>
> Dr Manavpreet Kaur, No special benefits for any office bearer. Your case
> should have been considered.
>
> Abhinav
>
> On Sunday, August 5, 2018, Dr. Manavpreet Kaur <
> dr.manavpreetk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi everyone,
>> First of all, why is everyone else other than the one being questioned
>> addressing the mail?
>> As Abhinav said, If this is about voicing our opinions and concerns on a
>> public mailing list, I’d like to bring something to your notice and seek
>> your opinions on the same. In 2017, I and Stalinjeet went to Wikimedia
>> Conference, Berlin. There we had an informal SAARC MEETUP and later we were
>> all in the Strategy Discussion Team (as team no. 17), we discussed the
>> issues SAARC Communities are facing and the kind of practices which might
>> work well for the growth of our communities. Based on the discussions and
>> inputs from the members from different communities (SAARC as well as global
>> communities), we prepared a report and proposed the same for presentation
>> at Wikimania, 2017. The presentation was shortlisted, but as both of us
>> were not selected for the scholarship, we had to withdraw our submission as
>> we were not aware of any such funding assistance being offered by CIS-A2K.
>> This is not a complaint but a question that is this financial assistance
>> available only for some specific position holders or is open to all the
>> Wikimedians? and If this assistance is being offered to the Wikimedians,
>> why there was no formal notice about the same?
>>
> ___
> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
>
___
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit 
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Dr. Manavpreet Kaur]

Hi everyone,
First of all, why is everyone else other than the one being questioned
addressing the mail?
As Abhinav said, If this is about voicing our opinions and concerns on a
public mailing list, I’d like to bring something to your notice and seek
your opinions on the same. In 2017, I and Stalinjeet went to Wikimedia
Conference, Berlin. There we had an informal SAARC MEETUP and later we were
all in the Strategy Discussion Team (as team no. 17), we discussed the
issues SAARC Communities are facing and the kind of practices which might
work well for the growth of our communities. Based on the discussions and
inputs from the members from different communities (SAARC as well as global
communities), we prepared a report and proposed the same for presentation
at Wikimania, 2017. The presentation was shortlisted, but as both of us
were not selected for the scholarship, we had to withdraw our submission as
we were not aware of any such funding assistance being offered by CIS-A2K.
This is not a complaint but a question that is this financial assistance
available only for some specific position holders or is open to all the
Wikimedians? and If this assistance is being offered to the Wikimedians,
why there was no formal notice about the same?
___
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit 
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Subhashish Panigrahi]

Subhashish

> On Aug 5, 2018, at 8:40 PM, Abhinav srivastava  wrote:
> 
> Hello Bodhisattwa, 
> 
> I won't be available from tomorrow onwards as stated in my previous mail. I 
> would like to reply to Subhashish, this evening. 
> 
> I am a bit surprised because of I when I wrote a clarification you simply 
> discarded and wrote, "Let WMIN reply". As advised to you on Wikimania mailing 
> list, it would have been better if you had raised these directly with the EC. 
> Since it is on a public mailing list, I am free to voice my opinion. 
> 
> Responses to Subhashish in line. 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 8:13 PM Bodhisattwa Mandal 
>>  wrote:
>> Hi Abhinav,
>> 
>> Please stop diverting the topic. If those other discussions are important 
>> for you, please start separate new threads. My questions were directed to 
>> WMIN, please let them respond.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Bodhisattwa
>> 
>>> On Sun, 5 Aug 2018, 19:55 Subhashish Panigrahi,  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Subhashish
>>> 
 On Aug 5, 2018, at 7:06 PM, Abhinav srivastava  
 wrote:
 
 Hello Subhashish, 
 
 I would put a few of my reflections. Responses in line. 
 
> On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 6:15 PM Subhashish Panigrahi 
>  wrote:
> Just to clarify, my responses below are not about Rahul at all but in 
> general -
 Yes ! The issue is much larger.  
> 
> What Bodhi wrote earlier makes sense, “participation for chairpersons 
> meetup is not eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an 
> informal meetup”. A Wikimania participant gets to attend many such 
> informal meetups, and I’d like to believe that they certainly add value 
> to the movement. But participation in such small little occasion (not 
> small as less worthy but small as compared to a large formal event) does 
> not really justify a 3-4 day-long travel which affects one’s 
> personal/work life (as you rightly put it).
 I believe judgements should only be made based on objectivity.  I am not 
 too sure if being a speaker on a global platform can be called upon as a 
 'such small little occassion'. Then, how do we make judgements ?
>>> No judgements. Still stand by my words. Speaking slot in an ‘informal 
>>> meetup’ that is attended by a small set of people is smaller than a formal 
>>> talk in a formal event. But then, many Wikimedians whose talks and 
>>> workshops get selected at Wikimania don’t get a chance to attend Wikimania 
>>> in the first place for various reasons.
> I would like to hear and learn more about what calls this an informal meetup.
Something that is not in the main Wikimania schedule as an open event for all 
during the three days during the scheduled sessions. Being in a physical space 
gives communities an opportunity to get together and discuss. It’s no less 
valuable though. But arguing that someone’s travel is valid for participation 
in one such meeting is a bit too much.

Just because it is an Affiliate Meetup, it begins to hold little relevance. I 
am not of this opinion. 
> 
> This is the first time  Wikimedia India person was called to speak and so 
> much controversy over it. While the International Mailing List largely calls 
> this issue 'not-required', our very own Indians have an issue with it. 
> 
> I would like to place on record, when Wikimedia India had funds, the Chapter 
> annual plans endorsed by community stated one individual from the community 
> and one executive commitee member. But the Chapter stayed firm in recognising 
> the importance of the community and used to sponser both spots to its 
> community members. 
>  
> On an invitation, executive commitee member visited and so much issues. 
> 
 Through reports, learning patterns, minutes of the meeting etc. In fact, 
 we all such contemplate on the reports and learning patterns as found on 
 the Meta Page. It clearly states how this agenda would be further worked 
 upon and then taken up in the next meeting. We all should give 
 suggestions. Thank You, Subhashish for bringing up the issue of reporting. 
 
 Also, Subhashish, now that you have appropriate bandwidth, I believe 
 refelctions on the Bengaluru meetup can be done.
>>> I never said I have the appropriate bandwidth now. :) In fact, I’m trying 
>>> to reflect on something that is recent - Wikimania - with the community. 
>>> The Bangalore meeting is no longer a priority for me at the moment. I 
>>> shared the notes with the community right after the meeting.
> 
> Yes ! You did not said so. I apologise for that. Since you were voicing over 
> the Internet I though so. Sorry Agian, about that. 
> Thank You for recognising that Bengaluru meeting is no longer a priority. 
> Being a party to one episode and simultaneously voicing your concerns on 
> another episode. I am confused on this. 
I was a participant. There was an Etherpad (I can search it when online from 
computer but others who were there in 

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Abhinav srivastava]

Hello Bodhisattwa,

I won't be available from tomorrow onwards as stated in my previous mail. I
would like to reply to Subhashish, this evening.

I am a bit surprised because of I when I wrote a clarification you simply
discarded and wrote, "Let WMIN reply". As advised to you on Wikimania
mailing list, it would have been better if you had raised these directly
with the EC. Since it is on a public mailing list, I am free to voice my
opinion.

Responses to Subhashish in line.



On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 8:13 PM Bodhisattwa Mandal <
bodhisattwa.rg...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Abhinav,
>
> Please stop diverting the topic. If those other discussions are important
> for you, please start separate new threads. My questions were directed to
> WMIN, please let them respond.
>
> Thanks,
> Bodhisattwa
>
> On Sun, 5 Aug 2018, 19:55 Subhashish Panigrahi, 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Subhashish
>>
>> On Aug 5, 2018, at 7:06 PM, Abhinav srivastava 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hello Subhashish,
>>
>> I would put a few of my reflections. Responses in line.
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 6:15 PM Subhashish Panigrahi <
>> psubhash...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Just to clarify, my responses below are not about Rahul at all but in
>>> general -
>>>
>> Yes ! The issue is much larger.
>>
>>>
>>> What Bodhi wrote earlier makes sense, “participation for chairpersons
>>> meetup is not eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an
>>> informal meetup”. A Wikimania participant gets to attend many such informal
>>> meetups, and I’d like to believe that they certainly add value to the
>>> movement. But participation in such small little occasion (not small as
>>> less worthy but small as compared to a large formal event) does not really
>>> justify a 3-4 day-long travel which affects one’s personal/work life (as
>>> you rightly put it).
>>>
>> I believe judgements should only be made based on objectivity.  I am not
>> too sure if being a speaker on a global platform can be called upon as a
>> 'such small little occassion'. Then, how do we make judgements ?
>>
>> No judgements. Still stand by my words. Speaking slot in an ‘informal
>> meetup’ that is attended by a small set of people is smaller than a formal
>> talk in a formal event. But then, many Wikimedians whose talks and
>> workshops get selected at Wikimania don’t get a chance to attend Wikimania
>> in the first place for various reasons.
>>
> I would like to hear and learn more about what calls this an informal
meetup. Just because it is an Affiliate Meetup, it begins to hold little
relevance. I am not of this opinion.
This is the first time  Wikimedia India person was called to speak and so
much controversy over it. While the International Mailing List largely
calls this issue 'not-required', our very own Indians have an issue with
it.

I would like to place on record, when Wikimedia India had funds, the
Chapter annual plans endorsed by community stated one individual from the
community and one executive commitee member. But the Chapter stayed firm in
recognising the importance of the community and used to sponser both spots
to its community members.

On an invitation, executive commitee member visited and so much issues.

Through reports, learning patterns, minutes of the meeting etc. In fact, we
>> all such contemplate on the reports and learning patterns as found on the
>> Meta Page. It clearly states how this agenda would be further worked upon
>> and then taken up in the next meeting. We all should give suggestions.
>> Thank You, Subhashish for bringing up the issue of reporting.
>>
>> Also, Subhashish, now that you have appropriate bandwidth, I believe
>> refelctions on the Bengaluru meetup can be done.
>>
>> I never said I have the appropriate bandwidth now. :) In fact, I’m trying
>> to reflect on something that is recent - Wikimania - with the community.
>> The Bangalore meeting is no longer a priority for me at the moment. I
>> shared the notes with the community right after the meeting.
>>
>
Yes ! You did not said so. I apologise for that. Since you were voicing
over the Internet I though so. Sorry Agian, about that.
Thank You for recognising that Bengaluru meeting is no longer a priority.
Being a party to one episode and simultaneously voicing your concerns on
another episode. I am confused on this.

Don't mind but can you please share relevant links

>
>> I thought I shared the fact that I had shared the discussions with my own
>> community.
>>
>> It would be a great learning experience for delegrates attending next
>> year Wikimedia Conference. :) .   Please Note : No Attempts to deviate
>> from the topic.
>>
>> It’s clearly deviating from the main topic. Better to start a new thread
>> instead.
>>
> Okay. Your Concerns Understood.

>
>>> Also, I personally think that if a question is directed towards an
>>> organization, it’s better to wait for sometime until they get back. We, as
>>> a community, have quite some time now until next Wikimania to set a better
>>> standard and fix if 

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Bodhisattwa Mandal]

Hi Abhinav,

Please stop diverting the topic. If those other discussions are important
for you, please start separate new threads. My questions were directed to
WMIN, please let them respond.

Thanks,
Bodhisattwa

On Sun, 5 Aug 2018, 19:55 Subhashish Panigrahi, 
wrote:

>
>
> Subhashish
>
> On Aug 5, 2018, at 7:06 PM, Abhinav srivastava 
> wrote:
>
> Hello Subhashish,
>
> I would put a few of my reflections. Responses in line.
>
> On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 6:15 PM Subhashish Panigrahi 
> wrote:
>
>> Just to clarify, my responses below are not about Rahul at all but in
>> general -
>>
> Yes ! The issue is much larger.
>
>>
>> What Bodhi wrote earlier makes sense, “participation for chairpersons
>> meetup is not eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an
>> informal meetup”. A Wikimania participant gets to attend many such informal
>> meetups, and I’d like to believe that they certainly add value to the
>> movement. But participation in such small little occasion (not small as
>> less worthy but small as compared to a large formal event) does not really
>> justify a 3-4 day-long travel which affects one’s personal/work life (as
>> you rightly put it).
>>
> I believe judgements should only be made based on objectivity.  I am not
> too sure if being a speaker on a global platform can be called upon as a
> 'such small little occassion'. Then, how do we make judgements ?
>
> No judgements. Still stand by my words. Speaking slot in an ‘informal
> meetup’ that is attended by a small set of people is smaller than a formal
> talk in a formal event. But then, many Wikimedians whose talks and
> workshops get selected at Wikimania don’t get a chance to attend Wikimania
> in the first place for various reasons.
>
> Through reports, learning patterns, minutes of the meeting etc. In fact,
> we all such contemplate on the reports and learning patterns as found on
> the Meta Page. It clearly states how this agenda would be further worked
> upon and then taken up in the next meeting. We all should give suggestions.
> Thank You, Subhashish for bringing up the issue of reporting.
>
> Also, Subhashish, now that you have appropriate bandwidth, I believe
> refelctions on the Bengaluru meetup can be done.
>
> I never said I have the appropriate bandwidth now. :) In fact, I’m trying
> to reflect on something that is recent - Wikimania - with the community.
> The Bangalore meeting is no longer a priority for me at the moment. I
> shared the notes with the community right after the meeting.
>
> I thought I shared the fact that I had shared the discussions with my own
> community.
>
> It would be a great learning experience for delegrates attending next year
> Wikimedia Conference. :) .   Please Note : No Attempts to deviate from
> the topic.
>
> It’s clearly deviating from the main topic. Better to start a new thread
> instead.
>
>
>> Also, I personally think that if a question is directed towards an
>> organization, it’s better to wait for sometime until they get back. We, as
>> a community, have quite some time now until next Wikimania to set a better
>> standard and fix if something is broken. :)
>>
> Of Course  ! Both Wikimedia India and CIS-A2K are responsive and this is a
> welcome step. I would like to bring to attention, once the Wikimedia India
> Program Director had initiated an idea that particular volunteer to attend
> only two Wikimania and in turn leave space for other volunteers.
>
> It was a suggestion from Ravi and not something set in stone.
>
>
> Some of our community members have been visiting Wikimania like from Hong
> Kong Wikimania in 2013, United Kingdom Wikimania in 2014, Mexico Wikimania
> in 2015, Italy Wikimania in 2016, Canadan Wikimania in 2017 and now South
> Afrcia.
>
> What’s the point here? Wikimedians from India are a subset of a much
> larger community and there are Wikimedians who have attended all the
> Wikimanias. Where you’re going with this statement?
>
>
> This is just a suggestion floated since the idea of next year Wikimania is
> discussed.  Wikimedia Projects are about the art of giving and making space
> for other volunteers could just be one step.
>
> Still not sure. I don’t remember very well but I probably will check again
> from the archives - Phoebe shared a long note earlier. If one Wikimedian
> from India does not apply for a scholarship it doesn’t mean that another
> Wikimedian from India would receive it. Not sure if it works that way.
>
>
>> A2K providing support to the community (Wikimedia India included) in
>> general is a good practice. Maybe this is the right time for the community
>> to come forward to share what they feel should be the right way (or ways)
>> A2K could follow while supporting someone from Wikimedia India. The way
>> they support the individual Wikimedians (from the scholarship waitlist)
>> seems fairly simple and straightforward. Supporting WMIN lies in a grey
>> area because one individual from 7 people gets selected. The consensus
>> process 

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Subhashish Panigrahi]

Subhashish

> On Aug 5, 2018, at 7:06 PM, Abhinav srivastava  wrote:
> 
> Hello Subhashish, 
> 
> I would put a few of my reflections. Responses in line. 
> 
>> On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 6:15 PM Subhashish Panigrahi  
>> wrote:
>> Just to clarify, my responses below are not about Rahul at all but in 
>> general -
> Yes ! The issue is much larger.  
>> 
>> What Bodhi wrote earlier makes sense, “participation for chairpersons meetup 
>> is not eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal 
>> meetup”. A Wikimania participant gets to attend many such informal meetups, 
>> and I’d like to believe that they certainly add value to the movement. But 
>> participation in such small little occasion (not small as less worthy but 
>> small as compared to a large formal event) does not really justify a 3-4 
>> day-long travel which affects one’s personal/work life (as you rightly put 
>> it).
> I believe judgements should only be made based on objectivity.  I am not too 
> sure if being a speaker on a global platform can be called upon as a 'such 
> small little occassion'. Then, how do we make judgements ?
No judgements. Still stand by my words. Speaking slot in an ‘informal meetup’ 
that is attended by a small set of people is smaller than a formal talk in a 
formal event. But then, many Wikimedians whose talks and workshops get selected 
at Wikimania don’t get a chance to attend Wikimania in the first place for 
various reasons.
> Through reports, learning patterns, minutes of the meeting etc. In fact, we 
> all such contemplate on the reports and learning patterns as found on the 
> Meta Page. It clearly states how this agenda would be further worked upon and 
> then taken up in the next meeting. We all should give suggestions. Thank You, 
> Subhashish for bringing up the issue of reporting. 
> 
> Also, Subhashish, now that you have appropriate bandwidth, I believe 
> refelctions on the Bengaluru meetup can be done.
I never said I have the appropriate bandwidth now. :) In fact, I’m trying to 
reflect on something that is recent - Wikimania - with the community. The 
Bangalore meeting is no longer a priority for me at the moment. I shared the 
notes with the community right after the meeting.

I thought I shared the fact that I had shared the discussions with my own 
community.
> It would be a great learning experience for delegrates attending next year 
> Wikimedia Conference. :) .   Please Note : No Attempts to deviate from the 
> topic. 
It’s clearly deviating from the main topic. Better to start a new thread 
instead.
>> 
>> Also, I personally think that if a question is directed towards an 
>> organization, it’s better to wait for sometime until they get back. We, as a 
>> community, have quite some time now until next Wikimania to set a better 
>> standard and fix if something is broken. :)
> Of Course  ! Both Wikimedia India and CIS-A2K are responsive and this is a 
> welcome step. I would like to bring to attention, once the Wikimedia India 
> Program Director had initiated an idea that particular volunteer to attend 
> only two Wikimania and in turn leave space for other volunteers. 
It was a suggestion from Ravi and not something set in stone.
> 
> Some of our community members have been visiting Wikimania like from Hong 
> Kong Wikimania in 2013, United Kingdom Wikimania in 2014, Mexico Wikimania in 
> 2015, Italy Wikimania in 2016, Canadan Wikimania in 2017 and now South 
> Afrcia. 
What’s the point here? Wikimedians from India are a subset of a much larger 
community and there are Wikimedians who have attended all the Wikimanias. Where 
you’re going with this statement?
> 
> This is just a suggestion floated since the idea of next year Wikimania is 
> discussed.  Wikimedia Projects are about the art of giving and making space 
> for other volunteers could just be one step. 
Still not sure. I don’t remember very well but I probably will check again from 
the archives - Phoebe shared a long note earlier. If one Wikimedian from India 
does not apply for a scholarship it doesn’t mean that another Wikimedian from 
India would receive it. Not sure if it works that way.
>> 
>> A2K providing support to the community (Wikimedia India included) in general 
>> is a good practice. Maybe this is the right time for the community to come 
>> forward to share what they feel should be the right way (or ways) A2K could 
>> follow while supporting someone from Wikimedia India. The way they support 
>> the individual Wikimedians (from the scholarship waitlist) seems fairly 
>> simple and straightforward. Supporting WMIN lies in a grey area because one 
>> individual from 7 people gets selected. The consensus process involved in 
>> that process need to be more transparent.
> 
> Yes ! Definitely. Transparency is the key.  I am glad that CIS-A2K stood firm 
> in apologising. This is a very welcome step. However as pointed out in my 
> previous mail, supporting a scholarship reciepient in waiting and a 

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Abhinav srivastava]

Hello Subhashish,

I would put a few of my reflections. Responses in line.

On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 6:15 PM Subhashish Panigrahi 
wrote:

> Just to clarify, my responses below are not about Rahul at all but in
> general -
>
Yes ! The issue is much larger.

>
> What Bodhi wrote earlier makes sense, “participation for chairpersons
> meetup is not eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an
> informal meetup”. A Wikimania participant gets to attend many such informal
> meetups, and I’d like to believe that they certainly add value to the
> movement. But participation in such small little occasion (not small as
> less worthy but small as compared to a large formal event) does not really
> justify a 3-4 day-long travel which affects one’s personal/work life (as
> you rightly put it).
>
I believe judgements should only be made based on objectivity.  I am not
too sure if being a speaker on a global platform can be called upon as a
'such small little occassion'. Then, how do we make judgements ? Through
reports, learning patterns, minutes of the meeting etc. In fact, we all
such contemplate on the reports and learning patterns as found on the Meta
Page. It clearly states how this agenda would be further worked upon and
then taken up in the next meeting. We all should give suggestions. Thank
You, Subhashish for bringing up the issue of reporting.

Also, Subhashish, now that you have appropriate bandwidth, I believe
refelctions on the Bengaluru meetup can be done. It would be a great
learning experience for delegrates attending next year Wikimedia
Conference. :) .   Please Note : No Attempts to deviate from the topic.

>
> Also, I personally think that if a question is directed towards an
> organization, it’s better to wait for sometime until they get back. We, as
> a community, have quite some time now until next Wikimania to set a better
> standard and fix if something is broken. :)
>
Of Course  ! Both Wikimedia India and CIS-A2K are responsive and this is a
welcome step. I would like to bring to attention, once the Wikimedia India
Program Director had initiated an idea that particular volunteer to attend
only two Wikimania and in turn leave space for other volunteers.

Some of our community members have been visiting Wikimania like from Hong
Kong Wikimania in 2013, United Kingdom Wikimania in 2014, Mexico Wikimania
in 2015, Italy Wikimania in 2016, Canadan Wikimania in 2017 and now South
Afrcia.

This is just a suggestion floated since the idea of next year Wikimania is
discussed.  Wikimedia Projects are about the art of giving and making space
for other volunteers could just be one step.

>
> A2K providing support to the community (Wikimedia India included) in
> general is a good practice. Maybe this is the right time for the community
> to come forward to share what they feel should be the right way (or ways)
> A2K could follow while supporting someone from Wikimedia India. The way
> they support the individual Wikimedians (from the scholarship waitlist)
> seems fairly simple and straightforward. Supporting WMIN lies in a grey
> area because one individual from 7 people gets selected. The consensus
> process involved in that process need to be more transparent.
>

Yes ! Definitely. Transparency is the key.  I am glad that CIS-A2K stood
firm in apologising. This is a very welcome step. However as pointed out in
my previous mail, supporting a scholarship reciepient in waiting and a
speaker are two different subjects. I am not sure if judgements such as
'grey areas' should be made but Yes it calls for a discussion on how things
should work upon.

The consensus process is also something that calls for a discussion. From
informing the team members to taking consensus, the community's will on
this should be recorded with the Chapter. It is nice to hear that EC was
copied in the request mail and aderance to transparecy is being made.

>
> Subhashish
>

P.S : I may be slow in responses to future mails for the next 6 days. I am
no travel.

Abhinav

>
> On Aug 5, 2018, at 2:27 PM, Bodhisattwa Mandal <
> bodhisattwa.rg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I was expecting a reply from WMIN.
>
> Thanks,
> Bodhisattwa
>
> On Sun, 5 Aug 2018, 14:25 Abhinav srivastava, 
> wrote:
>
>> Hello Bodhisattva,
>>
>> Please allow me to respond to your confusions. Responses in line.
>>
>> Again, as stated in my first mail on the thread, you are making too many
>> value-judgments with un-friendly tone.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 12:27 PM Bodhisattwa Mandal <
>> bodhisattwa.rg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Yohann,
>>>
>>> Thanks for your reply, much appreciated.
>>>
>>>
>>> I have read your previous e-mail very carefully, without missing a
>>> single word.
>>>
>>> My question still stands. Many apologies, if I have not been able to
>>> make it clear in my previous mails, so I am adding some more perspective.
>>>
>>> 1) Chairpersons meeting in Wikimania is informal. It's not related to
>>> the main program of Wikimania. For 

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Subhashish Panigrahi]

Just to clarify, my responses below are not about Rahul at all but in general -

What Bodhi wrote earlier makes sense, “participation for chairpersons meetup is 
not eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal meetup”. A 
Wikimania participant gets to attend many such informal meetups, and I’d like 
to believe that they certainly add value to the movement. But participation in 
such small little occasion (not small as less worthy but small as compared to a 
large formal event) does not really justify a 3-4 day-long travel which affects 
one’s personal/work life (as you rightly put it).

Also, I personally think that if a question is directed towards an 
organization, it’s better to wait for sometime until they get back. We, as a 
community, have quite some time now until next Wikimania to set a better 
standard and fix if something is broken. :)

A2K providing support to the community (Wikimedia India included) in general is 
a good practice. Maybe this is the right time for the community to come forward 
to share what they feel should be the right way (or ways) A2K could follow 
while supporting someone from Wikimedia India. The way they support the 
individual Wikimedians (from the scholarship waitlist) seems fairly simple and 
straightforward. Supporting WMIN lies in a grey area because one individual 
from 7 people gets selected. The consensus process involved in that process 
need to be more transparent.

Subhashish

> On Aug 5, 2018, at 2:27 PM, Bodhisattwa Mandal  
> wrote:
> 
> I was expecting a reply from WMIN.
> 
> Thanks,
> Bodhisattwa
> 
>> On Sun, 5 Aug 2018, 14:25 Abhinav srivastava,  wrote:
>> Hello Bodhisattva, 
>> 
>> Please allow me to respond to your confusions. Responses in line. 
>> 
>> Again, as stated in my first mail on the thread, you are making too many 
>> value-judgments with un-friendly tone. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 12:27 PM Bodhisattwa Mandal 
>>>  wrote:
>>> Hi Yohann,
>>> 
>>> Thanks for your reply, much appreciated.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I have read your previous e-mail very carefully, without missing a single 
>>> word.
>>> 
>>> My question still stands. Many apologies, if I have not been able to make 
>>> it clear in my previous mails, so I am adding some more perspective.
>>> 
>>> 1) Chairpersons meeting in Wikimania is informal. It's not related to the 
>>> main program of Wikimania. For example, like many other informal meetups, 
>>> there happens to be a steward meetup every year in Wikimania. Now, if one 
>>> steward, who have not received scholarship, is invited in the meetup, then 
>>> he/she will have to spend his own money to attend the meeting. Same 
>>> principle lies here, participation for chairpersons meetup is not 
>>> eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal meetup. Can 
>>> you please provide some documentation, where it is written that scholarship 
>>> would be provided to attend informal meetups? Because if that is true, 
>>> everyone will find someone to invite themselves to attend informal meetups 
>>> in Wikimania and ask for scholarship from WMIN from next year.
>>  
>> If you check the agenda section, WMIN President gave a talk on Conflict 
>> Resolution, this is followed my summary in the notes.  When there are so 
>> many conflicts in Wikimedia communities across the globle, someone from 
>> India is invited to put this theories towards resolution. This is a welcome 
>> step. From Notes to his Summary Talk to how this will be carried forward for 
>> future course, every thing is documented. 
>> 
>> He did not simply attend the meeting as a participant or representing 
>> Wikimedia India, he was a lead on the 3rd point of the Agenda which is 
>> Conflcit Resolution. Everything on it is documented. 
>> 
>>> 
>>> 2) I have checked and rechecked the minute[1] and event page[2] of 
>>> chairpersons meeting of Wikimedia Conference, Berlin. Nowhere there is a 
>>> proof that he has attended that meeting. So, I have doubt that he was 
>>> invited at all because there is no point to invite someone who didn't 
>>> attend the meeting previously even he was present there. Can you provide 
>>> the documentation of his invitation?
>>> 
>>> [1] https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/chairpersons_meeting_April_20%2C_2018
>>> [2] 
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_April_20_2018
>>> 
>> I am sure when Wikimedia India President is invited to give a talk on a 
>> defined Agenda, 'Conflict Resolution' and CIS-A2K is approving his request, 
>> he must on record have recieved an invitation. 
>> 
>> It cannot be that without an invitation someone would travel so far.  Also, 
>> please remember, unlike WMF staff or CIS-A2K, when someone from Wikimedia 
>> India has to travel, he has to forgoe his personal paid holidays. WMF staff 
>> or CIS-A2K travel abroad calling it 'On Work'. 
>>> 3) As I said earlier, even if I believe that he was invited, already there 
>>> were 2 EC members 

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Bodhisattwa Mandal]

I was expecting a reply from WMIN.

Thanks,
Bodhisattwa

On Sun, 5 Aug 2018, 14:25 Abhinav srivastava,  wrote:

> Hello Bodhisattva,
>
> Please allow me to respond to your confusions. Responses in line.
>
> Again, as stated in my first mail on the thread, you are making too many
> value-judgments with un-friendly tone.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 12:27 PM Bodhisattwa Mandal <
> bodhisattwa.rg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Yohann,
>>
>> Thanks for your reply, much appreciated.
>>
>>
>> I have read your previous e-mail very carefully, without missing a single
>> word.
>>
>> My question still stands. Many apologies, if I have not been able to make
>> it clear in my previous mails, so I am adding some more perspective.
>>
>> 1) Chairpersons meeting in Wikimania is informal. It's not related to the
>> main program of Wikimania. For example, like many other informal meetups,
>> there happens to be a steward meetup every year in Wikimania. Now, if one
>> steward, who have not received scholarship, is invited in the meetup, then
>> he/she will have to spend his own money to attend the meeting. Same
>> principle lies here, participation for chairpersons meetup is not
>> eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal meetup. Can
>> you please provide some documentation, where it is written that scholarship
>> would be provided to attend informal meetups? Because if that is true,
>> everyone will find someone to invite themselves to attend informal meetups
>> in Wikimania and ask for scholarship from WMIN from next year.
>>
>
> If you check the agenda section, WMIN President gave a talk on Conflict
> Resolution, this is followed my summary in the notes.  When there are so
> many conflicts in Wikimedia communities across the globle, someone from
> India is invited to put this theories towards resolution. This is a welcome
> step. From Notes to his Summary Talk to how this will be carried forward
> for future course, every thing is documented.
>
> He did not simply attend the meeting as a participant or representing
> Wikimedia India, he was a lead on the 3rd point of the Agenda which is
> Conflcit Resolution. Everything on it is documented.
>
>
>> 2) I have checked and rechecked the minute[1] and event page[2] of
>> chairpersons meeting of Wikimedia Conference, Berlin. Nowhere there is a
>> proof that he has attended that meeting. So, I have doubt that he was
>> invited at all because there is no point to invite someone who didn't
>> attend the meeting previously even he was present there. Can you provide
>> the documentation of his invitation?
>>
>> [1]
>> https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/chairpersons_meeting_April_20%2C_2018
>>
>> [2]
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_April_20_2018
>>
> I am sure when Wikimedia India President is invited to give a talk on a
> defined Agenda, 'Conflict Resolution' and CIS-A2K is approving his request,
> he must on record have recieved an invitation.
>
> It cannot be that without an invitation someone would travel so far.
> Also, please remember, unlike WMF staff or CIS-A2K, when someone from
> Wikimedia India has to travel, he has to forgoe his personal paid holidays.
> WMF staff or CIS-A2K travel abroad calling it 'On Work'.
>
>> 3) As I said earlier, even if I believe that he was invited, already
>> there were 2 EC members (Viswa and Krishna) present in Wikimania who went
>> there with full scholarship. You can check that president's participation
>> is not at all mandatory. Why WMIN didn't told them to attend the
>> informal meeting of chairpersons on behalf of the Chapter? Are they
>> considered unfit or incapable to attend the meeting, if yes, why so?
>>
> This is about merit of the particular individual. This has nothing to do
> with the other Two EC.
>
> Secondly, stating this again, he didn't travel simply to attend the
> meeting, he was given a set agenda to speak that is 'Conflict Resolution'.
> It was a subject of one's personal merit on which the organising committee
> invited him, this cannot be passed to other members of the same affiliate.
>
>> 4) Lastly, Wikimania and Wikimedia Conference are not the same. Whereas
>> Wikimedia Conference is for affiliates, Wikimania is for volunteers. So,
>> sending an affiliate representative with the donation money, depriving a
>> Wikimedia volunteer who was in the waiting list and supposed to attend the
>> conference, is utter misuse of power and money. Can you please explain
>> that?
>>
> I do not think that if Wikimedia India President didn't go someone else
> would have been promoted. CIS-A2K should give a clarification on this.
>
> Simply stating it once again, he didn't just travel to attend the
> conference, he was a speaker. This is entirely a different subject.
>
>> 5) Lastly, did WMIN inform the volunteer who was supposed to attend the
>> conference, that Rahul Desmukh has been sent instead of him, because Rahul
>> is the president of WMIN whereas he is just a 

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Abhinav srivastava]

Hello Bodhisattva,

Please allow me to respond to your confusions. Responses in line.

Again, as stated in my first mail on the thread, you are making too many
value-judgments with un-friendly tone.





On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 12:27 PM Bodhisattwa Mandal <
bodhisattwa.rg...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Yohann,
>
> Thanks for your reply, much appreciated.
>
>
> I have read your previous e-mail very carefully, without missing a single
> word.
>
> My question still stands. Many apologies, if I have not been able to make
> it clear in my previous mails, so I am adding some more perspective.
>
> 1) Chairpersons meeting in Wikimania is informal. It's not related to the
> main program of Wikimania. For example, like many other informal meetups,
> there happens to be a steward meetup every year in Wikimania. Now, if one
> steward, who have not received scholarship, is invited in the meetup, then
> he/she will have to spend his own money to attend the meeting. Same
> principle lies here, participation for chairpersons meetup is not
> eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal meetup. Can
> you please provide some documentation, where it is written that scholarship
> would be provided to attend informal meetups? Because if that is true,
> everyone will find someone to invite themselves to attend informal meetups
> in Wikimania and ask for scholarship from WMIN from next year.
>

If you check the agenda section, WMIN President gave a talk on Conflict
Resolution, this is followed my summary in the notes.  When there are so
many conflicts in Wikimedia communities across the globle, someone from
India is invited to put this theories towards resolution. This is a welcome
step. From Notes to his Summary Talk to how this will be carried forward
for future course, every thing is documented.

He did not simply attend the meeting as a participant or representing
Wikimedia India, he was a lead on the 3rd point of the Agenda which is
Conflcit Resolution. Everything on it is documented.


> 2) I have checked and rechecked the minute[1] and event page[2] of
> chairpersons meeting of Wikimedia Conference, Berlin. Nowhere there is a
> proof that he has attended that meeting. So, I have doubt that he was
> invited at all because there is no point to invite someone who didn't
> attend the meeting previously even he was present there. Can you provide
> the documentation of his invitation?
>
> [1] https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/chairpersons_meeting_April_20%2C_2018
>
> [2]
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_April_20_2018
>
I am sure when Wikimedia India President is invited to give a talk on a
defined Agenda, 'Conflict Resolution' and CIS-A2K is approving his request,
he must on record have recieved an invitation.

It cannot be that without an invitation someone would travel so far.  Also,
please remember, unlike WMF staff or CIS-A2K, when someone from Wikimedia
India has to travel, he has to forgoe his personal paid holidays. WMF staff
or CIS-A2K travel abroad calling it 'On Work'.

> 3) As I said earlier, even if I believe that he was invited, already there
> were 2 EC members (Viswa and Krishna) present in Wikimania who went there
> with full scholarship. You can check that president's participation is not
> at all mandatory. Why WMIN didn't told them to attend the informal
> meeting of chairpersons on behalf of the Chapter? Are they considered unfit
> or incapable to attend the meeting, if yes, why so?
>
This is about merit of the particular individual. This has nothing to do
with the other Two EC.

Secondly, stating this again, he didn't travel simply to attend the
meeting, he was given a set agenda to speak that is 'Conflict Resolution'.
It was a subject of one's personal merit on which the organising committee
invited him, this cannot be passed to other members of the same affiliate.

> 4) Lastly, Wikimania and Wikimedia Conference are not the same. Whereas
> Wikimedia Conference is for affiliates, Wikimania is for volunteers. So,
> sending an affiliate representative with the donation money, depriving a
> Wikimedia volunteer who was in the waiting list and supposed to attend the
> conference, is utter misuse of power and money. Can you please explain
> that?
>
I do not think that if Wikimedia India President didn't go someone else
would have been promoted. CIS-A2K should give a clarification on this.

Simply stating it once again, he didn't just travel to attend the
conference, he was a speaker. This is entirely a different subject.

> 5) Lastly, did WMIN inform the volunteer who was supposed to attend the
> conference, that Rahul Desmukh has been sent instead of him, because Rahul
> is the president of WMIN whereas he is just a volunteer?
>
In response to statement 4.

>
> I am sure, you will read my e-mail carefully as I did to yours. Also, I
> hope this mail won't affect the friendship between us and you won't take it
> personally.
>
> Waiting for your detailed reply,
>
> 

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Bodhisattwa Mandal]

Hi Yohann,

Thanks for your reply, much appreciated.


I have read your previous e-mail very carefully, without missing a single
word.

My question still stands. Many apologies, if I have not been able to make
it clear in my previous mails, so I am adding some more perspective.

1) Chairpersons meeting in Wikimania is informal. It's not related to the
main program of Wikimania. For example, like many other informal meetups,
there happens to be a steward meetup every year in Wikimania. Now, if one
steward, who have not received scholarship, is invited in the meetup, then
he/she will have to spend his own money to attend the meeting. Same
principle lies here, participation for chairpersons meetup is not
eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal meetup. Can
you please provide some documentation, where it is written that scholarship
would be provided to attend informal meetups? Because if that is true,
everyone will find someone to invite themselves to attend informal meetups
in Wikimania and ask for scholarship from WMIN from next year.

2) I have checked and rechecked the minute[1] and event page[2] of
chairpersons meeting of Wikimedia Conference, Berlin. Nowhere there is a
proof that he has attended that meeting. So, I have doubt that he was
invited at all because there is no point to invite someone who didn't
attend the meeting previously even he was present there. Can you provide
the documentation of his invitation?

[1] https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/chairpersons_meeting_April_20%2C_2018

[2]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_April_20_2018

3) As I said earlier, even if I believe that he was invited, already there
were 2 EC members (Viswa and Krishna) present in Wikimania who went there
with full scholarship. You can check that president's participation is not
at all mandatory. Why WMIN didn't told them to attend the informal meeting
of chairpersons on behalf of the Chapter? Are they considered unfit or
incapable to attend the meeting, if yes, why so?

4) Lastly, Wikimania and Wikimedia Conference are not the same. Whereas
Wikimedia Conference is for affiliates, Wikimania is for volunteers. So,
sending an affiliate representative with the donation money, depriving a
Wikimedia volunteer who was in the waiting list and supposed to attend the
conference, is utter misuse of power and money. Can you please explain
that?

5) Lastly, did WMIN inform the volunteer who was supposed to attend the
conference, that Rahul Desmukh has been sent instead of him, because Rahul
is the president of WMIN whereas he is just a volunteer?

I am sure, you will read my e-mail carefully as I did to yours. Also, I
hope this mail won't affect the friendship between us and you won't take it
personally.

Waiting for your detailed reply,

Bodhisattwa

On Sun, 5 Aug 2018, 11:08 Yohann Thomas,  wrote:

> (sorry for the delay, just following the 24hrs email rule)
>
> Hi Bodhi
>
> I would request you to please read my email completely. If you want, I can
> give you an excerpt of my email, which should answer your questions.
>
> //In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended
> the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then
> subsequently was *invited* to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's
> meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.
>
>
> https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_2018
>
> With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its
> trip & they accepted his proposal. //
>
>
> Regards,
> Yohann Thomas
> Secretary
> Wikimedia India
>
>
> On Fri 3 Aug, 2018, 18:33 Bodhisattwa Mandal, 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Yohann,
>>
>> Thanks for your mail.
>>
>> If you check the link of chairperson's meeting, you can see, that many
>> participants were not president of any affiliates, they attended the
>> meeting on behalf of the president. For example, Nahid Sultan attended the
>> meeting on behalf of Wikipedia Bangladesh (WMBD) as the General Secretary
>> of WMBD. It is not mandatory to join the meeting as a President of any
>> affiliates, usually, if one representative of an affiliate is present in
>> that conference, he can represent the affiliate.
>>
>> In Wikimania 2018, 2 EC members, Viswa Prabha and Krishna Chaitanya
>> Velaga, were present and one of them could have attended the meeting on
>> behalf of WMIN. Can you please explain, why WMIN decided to spend a huge
>> amount of donation money to send WMIN president to attend a meeting, where
>> his presence is not at all mandatory. Does WMIN consider these two members
>> unfit to attend such meeting?
>>
>> Waiting for your reply,
>> Bodhisattwa
>>
>>
>> On 3 Aug 2018 6:05 pm, "Yohann Thomas"  wrote:
>>
>> Dear Bodhi & other community members
>>
>> First of all, I would apologise for the delay in reply. Wikimedia India
>> is run by 7 board members(as you are already aware) & any discussion on any
>> topic, requires 

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Yohann Thomas]

(sorry for the delay, just following the 24hrs email rule)

Hi Bodhi

I would request you to please read my email completely. If you want, I can
give you an excerpt of my email, which should answer your questions.

//In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended
the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then
subsequently was *invited* to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's
meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.

https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_2018

With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its
trip & they accepted his proposal. //


Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India


On Fri 3 Aug, 2018, 18:33 Bodhisattwa Mandal, 
wrote:

> Hi Yohann,
>
> Thanks for your mail.
>
> If you check the link of chairperson's meeting, you can see, that many
> participants were not president of any affiliates, they attended the
> meeting on behalf of the president. For example, Nahid Sultan attended the
> meeting on behalf of Wikipedia Bangladesh (WMBD) as the General Secretary
> of WMBD. It is not mandatory to join the meeting as a President of any
> affiliates, usually, if one representative of an affiliate is present in
> that conference, he can represent the affiliate.
>
> In Wikimania 2018, 2 EC members, Viswa Prabha and Krishna Chaitanya
> Velaga, were present and one of them could have attended the meeting on
> behalf of WMIN. Can you please explain, why WMIN decided to spend a huge
> amount of donation money to send WMIN president to attend a meeting, where
> his presence is not at all mandatory. Does WMIN consider these two members
> unfit to attend such meeting?
>
> Waiting for your reply,
> Bodhisattwa
>
>
> On 3 Aug 2018 6:05 pm, "Yohann Thomas"  wrote:
>
> Dear Bodhi & other community members
>
> First of all, I would apologise for the delay in reply. Wikimedia India is
> run by 7 board members(as you are already aware) & any discussion on any
> topic, requires inputs from all of them.. Since all are unpaid volunteers &
> have their own professional lives apart from Wikimedia India, there was a
> delay in drafting a reply.
>
> As it is a well known fact, Wikimedia India is a volunteer run
> organisation. There are board members, who discharge their duties towards
> the chapter, as well as serve their regional communities (as well as user
> groups) in their volunteer roles.
>
> Another well known fact is that, Wikimedia India still isn't financially
> independent & is still dependent on external funding which is fraught with
> regulatory hurdles, including obstacles related to FCRA.
>
> Having said that, many community members juggle their different roles in
> community, affiliates, committees & in personal & professional roles to
> attend different conferences run by the Wikimedia & its volunteers around
> the world.
> In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended the
> Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then
> subsequently was invited to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's meeting
> at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.
>
>
> https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_2018
>
> With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its
> trip & they accepted his proposal.
>
> Going a little off topic & concluding my email, I would really want to
> appreciate & acknowledge the work done by Abhinav on & offline in relation
> to the chapter. Eventhough Abhinav, prematurely left the chapter before his
> term expired, he still continues to support the chapter on different
> issues, inspite of us still battling with all our regulatory hurdles. I
> wish there were more such vocal well wishers, when the chapter is going
> through a difficult time.
>
> Regards,
> Yohann Thomas
> Secretary
> Wikimedia India
>
> 
> On Fri 27 Jul, 2018, 12:32 Bodhisattwa Mandal, <
> bodhisattwa.rg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> WMIN chapter president Rahul Deshmukh attended Wikimania 2018 in Cape
>> Town without being selected for any type of scholarship. My question is why
>> was he sent to the conference depriving other community members from India
>> who were in the waiting list.
>>
>> He spoke in the informal chairpersons' meetup for few minutes. The
>> meeting doesn't require president of the organization's presence, and
>> already there were 2 EC member of WMIN present, who could have attended the
>> meeting.
>>
>> To me, this is utter misuse of power and abuse of donation money.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Bodhisattwa
>> ___
>> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
>> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
>>
>
>
___
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Bodhisattwa Mandal]

Hi Yohann,

Thanks for your mail.

If you check the link of chairperson's meeting, you can see, that many
participants were not president of any affiliates, they attended the
meeting on behalf of the president. For example, Nahid Sultan attended the
meeting on behalf of Wikipedia Bangladesh (WMBD) as the General Secretary
of WMBD. It is not mandatory to join the meeting as a President of any
affiliates, usually, if one representative of an affiliate is present in
that conference, he can represent the affiliate.

In Wikimania 2018, 2 EC members, Viswa Prabha and Krishna Chaitanya Velaga,
were present and one of them could have attended the meeting on behalf of
WMIN. Can you please explain, why WMIN decided to spend a huge amount of
donation money to send WMIN president to attend a meeting, where his
presence is not at all mandatory. Does WMIN consider these two members
unfit to attend such meeting?

Waiting for your reply,
Bodhisattwa


On 3 Aug 2018 6:05 pm, "Yohann Thomas"  wrote:

Dear Bodhi & other community members

First of all, I would apologise for the delay in reply. Wikimedia India is
run by 7 board members(as you are already aware) & any discussion on any
topic, requires inputs from all of them.. Since all are unpaid volunteers &
have their own professional lives apart from Wikimedia India, there was a
delay in drafting a reply.

As it is a well known fact, Wikimedia India is a volunteer run
organisation. There are board members, who discharge their duties towards
the chapter, as well as serve their regional communities (as well as user
groups) in their volunteer roles.

Another well known fact is that, Wikimedia India still isn't financially
independent & is still dependent on external funding which is fraught with
regulatory hurdles, including obstacles related to FCRA.

Having said that, many community members juggle their different roles in
community, affiliates, committees & in personal & professional roles to
attend different conferences run by the Wikimedia & its volunteers around
the world.
In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended the
Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then
subsequently was invited to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's meeting
at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.

https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_2018

With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its
trip & they accepted his proposal.

Going a little off topic & concluding my email, I would really want to
appreciate & acknowledge the work done by Abhinav on & offline in relation
to the chapter. Eventhough Abhinav, prematurely left the chapter before his
term expired, he still continues to support the chapter on different
issues, inspite of us still battling with all our regulatory hurdles. I
wish there were more such vocal well wishers, when the chapter is going
through a difficult time.

Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India


On Fri 27 Jul, 2018, 12:32 Bodhisattwa Mandal, 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> WMIN chapter president Rahul Deshmukh attended Wikimania 2018 in Cape Town
> without being selected for any type of scholarship. My question is why was
> he sent to the conference depriving other community members from India who
> were in the waiting list.
>
> He spoke in the informal chairpersons' meetup for few minutes. The meeting
> doesn't require president of the organization's presence, and already there
> were 2 EC member of WMIN present, who could have attended the meeting.
>
> To me, this is utter misuse of power and abuse of donation money.
>
> Thanks,
> Bodhisattwa
> ___
> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
>
___
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit 
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Yohann Thomas]

Dear Bodhi & other community members

First of all, I would apologise for the delay in reply. Wikimedia India is
run by 7 board members(as you are already aware) & any discussion on any
topic, requires inputs from all of them.. Since all are unpaid volunteers &
have their own professional lives apart from Wikimedia India, there was a
delay in drafting a reply.

As it is a well known fact, Wikimedia India is a volunteer run
organisation. There are board members, who discharge their duties towards
the chapter, as well as serve their regional communities (as well as user
groups) in their volunteer roles.

Another well known fact is that, Wikimedia India still isn't financially
independent & is still dependent on external funding which is fraught with
regulatory hurdles, including obstacles related to FCRA.

Having said that, many community members juggle their different roles in
community, affiliates, committees & in personal & professional roles to
attend different conferences run by the Wikimedia & its volunteers around
the world.
In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended the
Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then
subsequently was invited to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's meeting
at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.

https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_2018

With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its
trip & they accepted his proposal.

Going a little off topic & concluding my email, I would really want to
appreciate & acknowledge the work done by Abhinav on & offline in relation
to the chapter. Eventhough Abhinav, prematurely left the chapter before his
term expired, he still continues to support the chapter on different
issues, inspite of us still battling with all our regulatory hurdles. I
wish there were more such vocal well wishers, when the chapter is going
through a difficult time.

Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India


On Fri 27 Jul, 2018, 12:32 Bodhisattwa Mandal, 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> WMIN chapter president Rahul Deshmukh attended Wikimania 2018 in Cape Town
> without being selected for any type of scholarship. My question is why was
> he sent to the conference depriving other community members from India who
> were in the waiting list.
>
> He spoke in the informal chairpersons' meetup for few minutes. The meeting
> doesn't require president of the organization's presence, and already there
> were 2 EC member of WMIN present, who could have attended the meeting.
>
> To me, this is utter misuse of power and abuse of donation money.
>
> Thanks,
> Bodhisattwa
> ___
> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
>
___
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit 
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Dr. Manavpreet Kaur]

Hi Asaf, Wikimedia India community members and CIS A2K Team,

I am sorry for intervening in this whole discussion but I feel the
discussion is deviating from the primary concern as we have received
another mail where a number of concerns have been raised in response to the
primary issue raised by Bodhi. My subscription was faulty and thanks to
Sailesh who fixed it and I got a digest of emails. From what I've learned
through the emails, Wikimedia India representatives are usually sent to
attend the annual wiki gatherings like Wikimedia Conference and this time
it was Wikimania. I am sorry to state that we (community) have never been
approached by anyone from the Chapter to discuss issues, events, Training
or to offer some assistance.  We have only one point of contact for all our
issues and plans and that is CIS A2K Team. When Wikimedia India Chapter is
not taking initiatives to bring the communities together or to take the
movement ahead, then what is the purpose of their representatives attending
these events, what do they have to impart to other wikimedians there?  and
how are they using the learnings in progressing the movement?
Can someone please clearly address these questions and then we can discuss
the other issues raised in the different thread.

Regards,
Manavpreet Kaur

On Fri, 3 Aug 2018 at 3:42 PM, Amritasya Putra 
wrote:

> Why doesn’t my email reach this list? I have been a member for, like three
> years.
>
> On Fri, 3 Aug 2018 at 10:00 AM, Asaf Bartov  wrote:
>
>> Certainly, we can wait. But please understand I did not assert WMIN (or
>> anyone) needs to apologize. Please reread and you'll find I posed it in a
>> conditional, as *one* possible outcome of resolving Bodhisattwa's concern.
>> I also described another possible scenario.
>>
>> A.
>>
>> On Aug 3, 2018 06:21, "Abhinav srivastava"  wrote:
>>
>> Hello Asaf,
>>
>> In consent with my last mail on the thread, please be assured, no
>> discussion whatsoever will take place until WMIN replies to the concerns,
>> the community takes its time to question, inspect and interrogate the
>> matter. Yes, all other issues will be raised on a separate thread and in
>> good spirit only after this matter is resolved. As Subhashish pointed out,
>> the issue is not about one person or an institution but bettering the
>> process. That is essentially the reason they had been brought up.
>>
>> Asaf, It is always nice to hear from you. You have always followed the
>> Indian community closely and helped it in whatever way. We all appreciate
>> that.  I would look forward to hearing about the better methodological
>> processes of debates and discussions on resolving community matter. This
>> would also help us in the future course. The Indian community is
>> progressing in resolving its disputes in a peaceful and coherent manner and
>> we wish to learn more of this.
>>
>> In continuity with my second paragraph, it would be great if you guide us
>> on this. This would make the community inclusive and self-sustaining. I am
>> not very happy that when the matter is sub-judice in the people's court,
>> you holding WMF office, is talking about on ways WMIN can apologize. To
>> re-iterate, provide us with methodological solutions and leave the
>> community to decide.
>>
>> Also, I am not sure since you holding WMF office should advise about
>> distractions.concerning the second point clearly deals with conflicts in
>> Wikimedia Foundation policy. Of course, the platform could be a reason and
>> for that, we will make sure we do not jump across topics. In fact, when we
>> move ahead on those issues (only after resolving the principal problem) I
>> would encourage you to be a participant (representing WMF). There are few
>> essentially questions concerning few community members regarding WMF
>> policies which I may share with you personally, whatever you find
>> appropriate can be further asked on the community mailing list.
>>
>> At last, I have spoken to different EC members. Two EC members have also
>> written to me stating that they will reply about WMIN stand. They have
>> assured me that they will reply as soon as possible. As a past EC member, I
>> would like to tell, finalizing a WMIN stand takes some time since EC
>> members need to discuss, deliberate and then provide to their consent. As
>> you all are aware unlike CIS-A2K or WMF, Wikimedia India is a voluntary
>> organization, EC has his/her own personal life (own office work etc), hence
>> at times, it takes some time. However, a reply will follow-up very shortly.
>>
>> To sum up, no more discussions please, let's stick on the principal
>> query, please.
>>
>> Abhinav
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 3, 2018 at 2:33 AM Asaf Bartov  wrote:
>>
>>> Folks,
>>>
>>> As an outside observer, may I encourage everyone to try to keep this one
>>> thread about its one, original topic?  Abhinav, I found your responses
>>> defensive and distracting -- listing other issues and other groups about
>>> which concerns can be 

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Subhashish Panigrahi]

(@Amritasya: please note, your's an off-topic discussion here)
It does, and those who are subscribers to the list can see your mail. You
can always check the archive (
https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/) to check if your
mail has made it to the discussion or not.

You can write to the mailing list moderators (
wikimediaindia-l-ow...@lists.wikimedia.org) if you sent something to the
list and it never made it to a discussion on time.

Subhashish


On Fri, Aug 3, 2018 at 3:42 PM Amritasya Putra 
wrote:

> Why doesn’t my email reach this list? I have been a member for, like three
> years.
>
> On Fri, 3 Aug 2018 at 10:00 AM, Asaf Bartov  wrote:
>
>> Certainly, we can wait. But please understand I did not assert WMIN (or
>> anyone) needs to apologize. Please reread and you'll find I posed it in a
>> conditional, as *one* possible outcome of resolving Bodhisattwa's concern.
>> I also described another possible scenario.
>>
>> A.
>>
>> On Aug 3, 2018 06:21, "Abhinav srivastava"  wrote:
>>
>> Hello Asaf,
>>
>> In consent with my last mail on the thread, please be assured, no
>> discussion whatsoever will take place until WMIN replies to the concerns,
>> the community takes its time to question, inspect and interrogate the
>> matter. Yes, all other issues will be raised on a separate thread and in
>> good spirit only after this matter is resolved. As Subhashish pointed out,
>> the issue is not about one person or an institution but bettering the
>> process. That is essentially the reason they had been brought up.
>>
>> Asaf, It is always nice to hear from you. You have always followed the
>> Indian community closely and helped it in whatever way. We all appreciate
>> that.  I would look forward to hearing about the better methodological
>> processes of debates and discussions on resolving community matter. This
>> would also help us in the future course. The Indian community is
>> progressing in resolving its disputes in a peaceful and coherent manner and
>> we wish to learn more of this.
>>
>> In continuity with my second paragraph, it would be great if you guide us
>> on this. This would make the community inclusive and self-sustaining. I am
>> not very happy that when the matter is sub-judice in the people's court,
>> you holding WMF office, is talking about on ways WMIN can apologize. To
>> re-iterate, provide us with methodological solutions and leave the
>> community to decide.
>>
>> Also, I am not sure since you holding WMF office should advise about
>> distractions.concerning the second point clearly deals with conflicts in
>> Wikimedia Foundation policy. Of course, the platform could be a reason and
>> for that, we will make sure we do not jump across topics. In fact, when we
>> move ahead on those issues (only after resolving the principal problem) I
>> would encourage you to be a participant (representing WMF). There are few
>> essentially questions concerning few community members regarding WMF
>> policies which I may share with you personally, whatever you find
>> appropriate can be further asked on the community mailing list.
>>
>> At last, I have spoken to different EC members. Two EC members have also
>> written to me stating that they will reply about WMIN stand. They have
>> assured me that they will reply as soon as possible. As a past EC member, I
>> would like to tell, finalizing a WMIN stand takes some time since EC
>> members need to discuss, deliberate and then provide to their consent. As
>> you all are aware unlike CIS-A2K or WMF, Wikimedia India is a voluntary
>> organization, EC has his/her own personal life (own office work etc), hence
>> at times, it takes some time. However, a reply will follow-up very shortly.
>>
>> To sum up, no more discussions please, let's stick on the principal
>> query, please.
>>
>> Abhinav
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 3, 2018 at 2:33 AM Asaf Bartov  wrote:
>>
>>> Folks,
>>>
>>> As an outside observer, may I encourage everyone to try to keep this one
>>> thread about its one, original topic?  Abhinav, I found your responses
>>> defensive and distracting -- listing other issues and other groups about
>>> which concerns can be raised is a very poor response to *this* concern
>>> raised on this thread.  By all means, raise those concerns if you want to
>>> pursue them (rather than merely use them as distraction on this thread),
>>> *in a separate thread*.
>>>
>>> I encourage the WMIN EC, which is the body accountable to its membership
>>> and to the broader communities in India, to address Bodhisattwa's concern
>>> directly and politely, as befits an organization aiming to be
>>> representative of the entire movement in India.  *Please* don't respond
>>> with bluster, nor with [[whataboutism]].  If there was some poor governance
>>> or inappropriate decision-making involved here, just own up to it,
>>> apologize[1], and commit to doing better.  Everybody would appreciate you
>>> for doing the right thing.
>>>
>>> If the appearance 

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Amritasya Putra]

Why doesn’t my email reach this list? I have been a member for, like three
years.

On Fri, 3 Aug 2018 at 10:00 AM, Asaf Bartov  wrote:

> Certainly, we can wait. But please understand I did not assert WMIN (or
> anyone) needs to apologize. Please reread and you'll find I posed it in a
> conditional, as *one* possible outcome of resolving Bodhisattwa's concern.
> I also described another possible scenario.
>
> A.
>
> On Aug 3, 2018 06:21, "Abhinav srivastava"  wrote:
>
> Hello Asaf,
>
> In consent with my last mail on the thread, please be assured, no
> discussion whatsoever will take place until WMIN replies to the concerns,
> the community takes its time to question, inspect and interrogate the
> matter. Yes, all other issues will be raised on a separate thread and in
> good spirit only after this matter is resolved. As Subhashish pointed out,
> the issue is not about one person or an institution but bettering the
> process. That is essentially the reason they had been brought up.
>
> Asaf, It is always nice to hear from you. You have always followed the
> Indian community closely and helped it in whatever way. We all appreciate
> that.  I would look forward to hearing about the better methodological
> processes of debates and discussions on resolving community matter. This
> would also help us in the future course. The Indian community is
> progressing in resolving its disputes in a peaceful and coherent manner and
> we wish to learn more of this.
>
> In continuity with my second paragraph, it would be great if you guide us
> on this. This would make the community inclusive and self-sustaining. I am
> not very happy that when the matter is sub-judice in the people's court,
> you holding WMF office, is talking about on ways WMIN can apologize. To
> re-iterate, provide us with methodological solutions and leave the
> community to decide.
>
> Also, I am not sure since you holding WMF office should advise about
> distractions.concerning the second point clearly deals with conflicts in
> Wikimedia Foundation policy. Of course, the platform could be a reason and
> for that, we will make sure we do not jump across topics. In fact, when we
> move ahead on those issues (only after resolving the principal problem) I
> would encourage you to be a participant (representing WMF). There are few
> essentially questions concerning few community members regarding WMF
> policies which I may share with you personally, whatever you find
> appropriate can be further asked on the community mailing list.
>
> At last, I have spoken to different EC members. Two EC members have also
> written to me stating that they will reply about WMIN stand. They have
> assured me that they will reply as soon as possible. As a past EC member, I
> would like to tell, finalizing a WMIN stand takes some time since EC
> members need to discuss, deliberate and then provide to their consent. As
> you all are aware unlike CIS-A2K or WMF, Wikimedia India is a voluntary
> organization, EC has his/her own personal life (own office work etc), hence
> at times, it takes some time. However, a reply will follow-up very shortly.
>
> To sum up, no more discussions please, let's stick on the principal query,
> please.
>
> Abhinav
>
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 3, 2018 at 2:33 AM Asaf Bartov  wrote:
>
>> Folks,
>>
>> As an outside observer, may I encourage everyone to try to keep this one
>> thread about its one, original topic?  Abhinav, I found your responses
>> defensive and distracting -- listing other issues and other groups about
>> which concerns can be raised is a very poor response to *this* concern
>> raised on this thread.  By all means, raise those concerns if you want to
>> pursue them (rather than merely use them as distraction on this thread),
>> *in a separate thread*.
>>
>> I encourage the WMIN EC, which is the body accountable to its membership
>> and to the broader communities in India, to address Bodhisattwa's concern
>> directly and politely, as befits an organization aiming to be
>> representative of the entire movement in India.  *Please* don't respond
>> with bluster, nor with [[whataboutism]].  If there was some poor governance
>> or inappropriate decision-making involved here, just own up to it,
>> apologize[1], and commit to doing better.  Everybody would appreciate you
>> for doing the right thing.
>>
>> If the appearance Bodhisattwa's concern responds to is *incorrect*, by
>> all means, calmly respond with the facts as they are and demonstrate to the
>> community that there is nothing to be concerned about.  Also reflect on how
>> that appearance was created despite everything being okay, and what can,
>> and should, be done to prevent such appearances in the future. Thinking
>> about this, and sharing your conclusions, would also, I dare say, be
>> welcomed by the community on this mailing list.
>>
>> I look forward to this matter resolving peacefully one way or another,
>> but please, let us stick to the substance of *this* thread on 

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Abhinav srivastava]

Hello Asaf, Tito, Bodhi and others,



Bodhisattwa: Although Wikimedia India is yet to reply it would be in the
best interest that Wikimedia India also incorporates the question put up by
Bodhisattwa.

Tito: Coming out publicly is a welcome step and also apologizing.  The
point 3 and 4 effectively concerns CIS-A2K in the different capacity. I
have asked about it on a separate mail thread. It would be great if we can
listen from your team.

Asaf: Indeed, you did point out about many different scenarios. Most of
them caution about being appropriate and maintaining friendly space policy
simultaneously. In the recent past, Wikimedia India has remained friendly
and I am sure they will continue to remain so. Thank You for the caution
and reminding though.

I was also expecting to hear on Point 2 which concerns resolving disputes
in the organizational process and resolving the conflict. While I did
provide a suggestion, I would like to hear from you.

What methods can the community adopt?

A suggestion in this regard would be highly advisable.

Thanks,

Abhinav

On Fri, Aug 3, 2018 at 1:21 PM Bodhisattwa Mandal <
bodhisattwa.rg...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Tito,
>
> Thanks for the clarification from the part of CIS-A2K.
>
> It is clear now from your reply, that the WMIN president sent a request to
> CIS-A2K to support for his participation in Wikimania and CIS-A2K responded
> positively as this was an official request from an affiliate
> representative, I guess.
>
> By the way, did he mention the cause of his participation as an WMIN
> representative in the same conference, where already 2 EC members got full
> scholarship to attend. Like my first mail, I am still having the question,
> what extra value was targeted to be added in the conference by WMIN
> president, which could not have been achieved by the 2 EC members and and
> thus came the dire necessity to send another member with donation money?
>
> Thanks,
> Bodhisattwa
>
>
> On Fri, 3 Aug 2018, 12:42 Tito Dutta,  wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>> I, on behalf of CIS-A2K would like to clarify our position regarding Mr.
>> Rahul Deshmukh/WMIN representative's  participation in Wikimania 2018.
>>
>> We unconditionally apologise for not sending out information to community
>> and mailing lists about this support extended by A2K.
>>
>> We received an official email from WMIN representative requesting support
>> towards participation.  This email thread was addressed to Program Manager
>> of A2K, and was copied to WMIN EC. CIS-A2K extended its support based on
>> this request.
>>
>> We assure that we will maintain transparency with our future
>> communication.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>> Tito Dutta
>> Note: If I don't reply to your email in 2 days, please feel free to
>> remind me over email or phone call.
>>
>>
>> On Fri, 3 Aug 2018 at 10:00, Asaf Bartov  wrote:
>>
>>> Certainly, we can wait. But please understand I did not assert WMIN (or
>>> anyone) needs to apologize. Please reread and you'll find I posed it in a
>>> conditional, as *one* possible outcome of resolving Bodhisattwa's concern.
>>> I also described another possible scenario.
>>>
>>> A.
>>>
>>> On Aug 3, 2018 06:21, "Abhinav srivastava"  wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello Asaf,
>>>
>>> In consent with my last mail on the thread, please be assured, no
>>> discussion whatsoever will take place until WMIN replies to the concerns,
>>> the community takes its time to question, inspect and interrogate the
>>> matter. Yes, all other issues will be raised on a separate thread and in
>>> good spirit only after this matter is resolved. As Subhashish pointed out,
>>> the issue is not about one person or an institution but bettering the
>>> process. That is essentially the reason they had been brought up.
>>>
>>> Asaf, It is always nice to hear from you. You have always followed the
>>> Indian community closely and helped it in whatever way. We all appreciate
>>> that.  I would look forward to hearing about the better methodological
>>> processes of debates and discussions on resolving community matter. This
>>> would also help us in the future course. The Indian community is
>>> progressing in resolving its disputes in a peaceful and coherent manner and
>>> we wish to learn more of this.
>>>
>>> In continuity with my second paragraph, it would be great if you guide
>>> us on this. This would make the community inclusive and self-sustaining. I
>>> am not very happy that when the matter is sub-judice in the people's court,
>>> you holding WMF office, is talking about on ways WMIN can apologize. To
>>> re-iterate, provide us with methodological solutions and leave the
>>> community to decide.
>>>
>>> Also, I am not sure since you holding WMF office should advise about
>>> distractions.concerning the second point clearly deals with conflicts in
>>> Wikimedia Foundation policy. Of course, the platform could be a reason and
>>> for that, we will make sure we do not jump across topics. In fact, when we
>>> move ahead on those issues (only 

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Bodhisattwa Mandal]

Hi Tito,

Thanks for the clarification from the part of CIS-A2K.

It is clear now from your reply, that the WMIN president sent a request to
CIS-A2K to support for his participation in Wikimania and CIS-A2K responded
positively as this was an official request from an affiliate
representative, I guess.

By the way, did he mention the cause of his participation as an WMIN
representative in the same conference, where already 2 EC members got full
scholarship to attend. Like my first mail, I am still having the question,
what extra value was targeted to be added in the conference by WMIN
president, which could not have been achieved by the 2 EC members and and
thus came the dire necessity to send another member with donation money?

Thanks,
Bodhisattwa


On Fri, 3 Aug 2018, 12:42 Tito Dutta,  wrote:

> Hello,
> I, on behalf of CIS-A2K would like to clarify our position regarding Mr.
> Rahul Deshmukh/WMIN representative's  participation in Wikimania 2018.
>
> We unconditionally apologise for not sending out information to community
> and mailing lists about this support extended by A2K.
>
> We received an official email from WMIN representative requesting support
> towards participation.  This email thread was addressed to Program Manager
> of A2K, and was copied to WMIN EC. CIS-A2K extended its support based on
> this request.
>
> We assure that we will maintain transparency with our future communication.
>
>
>
>
> Thanks
> Tito Dutta
> Note: If I don't reply to your email in 2 days, please feel free to remind
> me over email or phone call.
>
>
> On Fri, 3 Aug 2018 at 10:00, Asaf Bartov  wrote:
>
>> Certainly, we can wait. But please understand I did not assert WMIN (or
>> anyone) needs to apologize. Please reread and you'll find I posed it in a
>> conditional, as *one* possible outcome of resolving Bodhisattwa's concern.
>> I also described another possible scenario.
>>
>> A.
>>
>> On Aug 3, 2018 06:21, "Abhinav srivastava"  wrote:
>>
>> Hello Asaf,
>>
>> In consent with my last mail on the thread, please be assured, no
>> discussion whatsoever will take place until WMIN replies to the concerns,
>> the community takes its time to question, inspect and interrogate the
>> matter. Yes, all other issues will be raised on a separate thread and in
>> good spirit only after this matter is resolved. As Subhashish pointed out,
>> the issue is not about one person or an institution but bettering the
>> process. That is essentially the reason they had been brought up.
>>
>> Asaf, It is always nice to hear from you. You have always followed the
>> Indian community closely and helped it in whatever way. We all appreciate
>> that.  I would look forward to hearing about the better methodological
>> processes of debates and discussions on resolving community matter. This
>> would also help us in the future course. The Indian community is
>> progressing in resolving its disputes in a peaceful and coherent manner and
>> we wish to learn more of this.
>>
>> In continuity with my second paragraph, it would be great if you guide us
>> on this. This would make the community inclusive and self-sustaining. I am
>> not very happy that when the matter is sub-judice in the people's court,
>> you holding WMF office, is talking about on ways WMIN can apologize. To
>> re-iterate, provide us with methodological solutions and leave the
>> community to decide.
>>
>> Also, I am not sure since you holding WMF office should advise about
>> distractions.concerning the second point clearly deals with conflicts in
>> Wikimedia Foundation policy. Of course, the platform could be a reason and
>> for that, we will make sure we do not jump across topics. In fact, when we
>> move ahead on those issues (only after resolving the principal problem) I
>> would encourage you to be a participant (representing WMF). There are few
>> essentially questions concerning few community members regarding WMF
>> policies which I may share with you personally, whatever you find
>> appropriate can be further asked on the community mailing list.
>>
>> At last, I have spoken to different EC members. Two EC members have also
>> written to me stating that they will reply about WMIN stand. They have
>> assured me that they will reply as soon as possible. As a past EC member, I
>> would like to tell, finalizing a WMIN stand takes some time since EC
>> members need to discuss, deliberate and then provide to their consent. As
>> you all are aware unlike CIS-A2K or WMF, Wikimedia India is a voluntary
>> organization, EC has his/her own personal life (own office work etc), hence
>> at times, it takes some time. However, a reply will follow-up very shortly.
>>
>> To sum up, no more discussions please, let's stick on the principal
>> query, please.
>>
>> Abhinav
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 3, 2018 at 2:33 AM Asaf Bartov  wrote:
>>
>>> Folks,
>>>
>>> As an outside observer, may I encourage everyone to try to keep this one
>>> thread about its one, original topic?  Abhinav, I found 

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Tito Dutta]

Hello,
I, on behalf of CIS-A2K would like to clarify our position regarding Mr.
Rahul Deshmukh/WMIN representative's  participation in Wikimania 2018.

We unconditionally apologise for not sending out information to community
and mailing lists about this support extended by A2K.

We received an official email from WMIN representative requesting support
towards participation.  This email thread was addressed to Program Manager
of A2K, and was copied to WMIN EC. CIS-A2K extended its support based on
this request.

We assure that we will maintain transparency with our future communication.




Thanks
Tito Dutta
Note: If I don't reply to your email in 2 days, please feel free to remind
me over email or phone call.


On Fri, 3 Aug 2018 at 10:00, Asaf Bartov  wrote:

> Certainly, we can wait. But please understand I did not assert WMIN (or
> anyone) needs to apologize. Please reread and you'll find I posed it in a
> conditional, as *one* possible outcome of resolving Bodhisattwa's concern.
> I also described another possible scenario.
>
> A.
>
> On Aug 3, 2018 06:21, "Abhinav srivastava"  wrote:
>
> Hello Asaf,
>
> In consent with my last mail on the thread, please be assured, no
> discussion whatsoever will take place until WMIN replies to the concerns,
> the community takes its time to question, inspect and interrogate the
> matter. Yes, all other issues will be raised on a separate thread and in
> good spirit only after this matter is resolved. As Subhashish pointed out,
> the issue is not about one person or an institution but bettering the
> process. That is essentially the reason they had been brought up.
>
> Asaf, It is always nice to hear from you. You have always followed the
> Indian community closely and helped it in whatever way. We all appreciate
> that.  I would look forward to hearing about the better methodological
> processes of debates and discussions on resolving community matter. This
> would also help us in the future course. The Indian community is
> progressing in resolving its disputes in a peaceful and coherent manner and
> we wish to learn more of this.
>
> In continuity with my second paragraph, it would be great if you guide us
> on this. This would make the community inclusive and self-sustaining. I am
> not very happy that when the matter is sub-judice in the people's court,
> you holding WMF office, is talking about on ways WMIN can apologize. To
> re-iterate, provide us with methodological solutions and leave the
> community to decide.
>
> Also, I am not sure since you holding WMF office should advise about
> distractions.concerning the second point clearly deals with conflicts in
> Wikimedia Foundation policy. Of course, the platform could be a reason and
> for that, we will make sure we do not jump across topics. In fact, when we
> move ahead on those issues (only after resolving the principal problem) I
> would encourage you to be a participant (representing WMF). There are few
> essentially questions concerning few community members regarding WMF
> policies which I may share with you personally, whatever you find
> appropriate can be further asked on the community mailing list.
>
> At last, I have spoken to different EC members. Two EC members have also
> written to me stating that they will reply about WMIN stand. They have
> assured me that they will reply as soon as possible. As a past EC member, I
> would like to tell, finalizing a WMIN stand takes some time since EC
> members need to discuss, deliberate and then provide to their consent. As
> you all are aware unlike CIS-A2K or WMF, Wikimedia India is a voluntary
> organization, EC has his/her own personal life (own office work etc), hence
> at times, it takes some time. However, a reply will follow-up very shortly.
>
> To sum up, no more discussions please, let's stick on the principal query,
> please.
>
> Abhinav
>
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 3, 2018 at 2:33 AM Asaf Bartov  wrote:
>
>> Folks,
>>
>> As an outside observer, may I encourage everyone to try to keep this one
>> thread about its one, original topic?  Abhinav, I found your responses
>> defensive and distracting -- listing other issues and other groups about
>> which concerns can be raised is a very poor response to *this* concern
>> raised on this thread.  By all means, raise those concerns if you want to
>> pursue them (rather than merely use them as distraction on this thread),
>> *in a separate thread*.
>>
>> I encourage the WMIN EC, which is the body accountable to its membership
>> and to the broader communities in India, to address Bodhisattwa's concern
>> directly and politely, as befits an organization aiming to be
>> representative of the entire movement in India.  *Please* don't respond
>> with bluster, nor with [[whataboutism]].  If there was some poor governance
>> or inappropriate decision-making involved here, just own up to it,
>> apologize[1], and commit to doing better.  Everybody would appreciate you
>> for doing the right thing.
>>
>> If the 

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Asaf Bartov]

Certainly, we can wait. But please understand I did not assert WMIN (or
anyone) needs to apologize. Please reread and you'll find I posed it in a
conditional, as *one* possible outcome of resolving Bodhisattwa's concern.
I also described another possible scenario.

A.

On Aug 3, 2018 06:21, "Abhinav srivastava"  wrote:

Hello Asaf,

In consent with my last mail on the thread, please be assured, no
discussion whatsoever will take place until WMIN replies to the concerns,
the community takes its time to question, inspect and interrogate the
matter. Yes, all other issues will be raised on a separate thread and in
good spirit only after this matter is resolved. As Subhashish pointed out,
the issue is not about one person or an institution but bettering the
process. That is essentially the reason they had been brought up.

Asaf, It is always nice to hear from you. You have always followed the
Indian community closely and helped it in whatever way. We all appreciate
that.  I would look forward to hearing about the better methodological
processes of debates and discussions on resolving community matter. This
would also help us in the future course. The Indian community is
progressing in resolving its disputes in a peaceful and coherent manner and
we wish to learn more of this.

In continuity with my second paragraph, it would be great if you guide us
on this. This would make the community inclusive and self-sustaining. I am
not very happy that when the matter is sub-judice in the people's court,
you holding WMF office, is talking about on ways WMIN can apologize. To
re-iterate, provide us with methodological solutions and leave the
community to decide.

Also, I am not sure since you holding WMF office should advise about
distractions.concerning the second point clearly deals with conflicts in
Wikimedia Foundation policy. Of course, the platform could be a reason and
for that, we will make sure we do not jump across topics. In fact, when we
move ahead on those issues (only after resolving the principal problem) I
would encourage you to be a participant (representing WMF). There are few
essentially questions concerning few community members regarding WMF
policies which I may share with you personally, whatever you find
appropriate can be further asked on the community mailing list.

At last, I have spoken to different EC members. Two EC members have also
written to me stating that they will reply about WMIN stand. They have
assured me that they will reply as soon as possible. As a past EC member, I
would like to tell, finalizing a WMIN stand takes some time since EC
members need to discuss, deliberate and then provide to their consent. As
you all are aware unlike CIS-A2K or WMF, Wikimedia India is a voluntary
organization, EC has his/her own personal life (own office work etc), hence
at times, it takes some time. However, a reply will follow-up very shortly.

To sum up, no more discussions please, let's stick on the principal query,
please.

Abhinav



On Fri, Aug 3, 2018 at 2:33 AM Asaf Bartov  wrote:

> Folks,
>
> As an outside observer, may I encourage everyone to try to keep this one
> thread about its one, original topic?  Abhinav, I found your responses
> defensive and distracting -- listing other issues and other groups about
> which concerns can be raised is a very poor response to *this* concern
> raised on this thread.  By all means, raise those concerns if you want to
> pursue them (rather than merely use them as distraction on this thread),
> *in a separate thread*.
>
> I encourage the WMIN EC, which is the body accountable to its membership
> and to the broader communities in India, to address Bodhisattwa's concern
> directly and politely, as befits an organization aiming to be
> representative of the entire movement in India.  *Please* don't respond
> with bluster, nor with [[whataboutism]].  If there was some poor governance
> or inappropriate decision-making involved here, just own up to it,
> apologize[1], and commit to doing better.  Everybody would appreciate you
> for doing the right thing.
>
> If the appearance Bodhisattwa's concern responds to is *incorrect*, by all
> means, calmly respond with the facts as they are and demonstrate to the
> community that there is nothing to be concerned about.  Also reflect on how
> that appearance was created despite everything being okay, and what can,
> and should, be done to prevent such appearances in the future. Thinking
> about this, and sharing your conclusions, would also, I dare say, be
> welcomed by the community on this mailing list.
>
> I look forward to this matter resolving peacefully one way or another, but
> please, let us stick to the substance of *this* thread on this thread, and
> let us be fair and honest and avoid manipulative arguments and insinuations.
>
> Warmly,
>
> Asaf
>
> [1] may I humble offer an essay I once wrote on the power of apologies for
> our movement? it is here:
>
> 

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Abhinav srivastava]

Hello Asaf,

In consent with my last mail on the thread, please be assured, no
discussion whatsoever will take place until WMIN replies to the concerns,
the community takes its time to question, inspect and interrogate the
matter. Yes, all other issues will be raised on a separate thread and in
good spirit only after this matter is resolved. As Subhashish pointed out,
the issue is not about one person or an institution but bettering the
process. That is essentially the reason they had been brought up.

Asaf, It is always nice to hear from you. You have always followed the
Indian community closely and helped it in whatever way. We all appreciate
that.  I would look forward to hearing about the better methodological
processes of debates and discussions on resolving community matter. This
would also help us in the future course. The Indian community is
progressing in resolving its disputes in a peaceful and coherent manner and
we wish to learn more of this.

In continuity with my second paragraph, it would be great if you guide us
on this. This would make the community inclusive and self-sustaining. I am
not very happy that when the matter is sub-judice in the people's court,
you holding WMF office, is talking about on ways WMIN can apologize. To
re-iterate, provide us with methodological solutions and leave the
community to decide.

Also, I am not sure since you holding WMF office should advise about
distractions.concerning the second point clearly deals with conflicts in
Wikimedia Foundation policy. Of course, the platform could be a reason and
for that, we will make sure we do not jump across topics. In fact, when we
move ahead on those issues (only after resolving the principal problem) I
would encourage you to be a participant (representing WMF). There are few
essentially questions concerning few community members regarding WMF
policies which I may share with you personally, whatever you find
appropriate can be further asked on the community mailing list.

At last, I have spoken to different EC members. Two EC members have also
written to me stating that they will reply about WMIN stand. They have
assured me that they will reply as soon as possible. As a past EC member, I
would like to tell, finalizing a WMIN stand takes some time since EC
members need to discuss, deliberate and then provide to their consent. As
you all are aware unlike CIS-A2K or WMF, Wikimedia India is a voluntary
organization, EC has his/her own personal life (own office work etc), hence
at times, it takes some time. However, a reply will follow-up very shortly.

To sum up, no more discussions please, let's stick on the principal query,
please.

Abhinav



On Fri, Aug 3, 2018 at 2:33 AM Asaf Bartov  wrote:

> Folks,
>
> As an outside observer, may I encourage everyone to try to keep this one
> thread about its one, original topic?  Abhinav, I found your responses
> defensive and distracting -- listing other issues and other groups about
> which concerns can be raised is a very poor response to *this* concern
> raised on this thread.  By all means, raise those concerns if you want to
> pursue them (rather than merely use them as distraction on this thread),
> *in a separate thread*.
>
> I encourage the WMIN EC, which is the body accountable to its membership
> and to the broader communities in India, to address Bodhisattwa's concern
> directly and politely, as befits an organization aiming to be
> representative of the entire movement in India.  *Please* don't respond
> with bluster, nor with [[whataboutism]].  If there was some poor governance
> or inappropriate decision-making involved here, just own up to it,
> apologize[1], and commit to doing better.  Everybody would appreciate you
> for doing the right thing.
>
> If the appearance Bodhisattwa's concern responds to is *incorrect*, by all
> means, calmly respond with the facts as they are and demonstrate to the
> community that there is nothing to be concerned about.  Also reflect on how
> that appearance was created despite everything being okay, and what can,
> and should, be done to prevent such appearances in the future. Thinking
> about this, and sharing your conclusions, would also, I dare say, be
> welcomed by the community on this mailing list.
>
> I look forward to this matter resolving peacefully one way or another, but
> please, let us stick to the substance of *this* thread on this thread, and
> let us be fair and honest and avoid manipulative arguments and insinuations.
>
> Warmly,
>
> Asaf
>
> [1] may I humble offer an essay I once wrote on the power of apologies for
> our movement? it is here:
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/So_you%27ve_made_a_mistake_and_it%27s_public...
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 2, 2018 at 3:01 PM Abhinav srivastava 
> wrote:
>
>> Hello Bodhisattwa,
>>
>> The first line of the mail which at 12:02 by Indian Standard Time, you
>> stated, "I understand you are felling bad with my toneI am sorry" .
>>
>> Apologies for getting this statement wrong, 

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Asaf Bartov]

Folks,

As an outside observer, may I encourage everyone to try to keep this one
thread about its one, original topic?  Abhinav, I found your responses
defensive and distracting -- listing other issues and other groups about
which concerns can be raised is a very poor response to *this* concern
raised on this thread.  By all means, raise those concerns if you want to
pursue them (rather than merely use them as distraction on this thread),
*in a separate thread*.

I encourage the WMIN EC, which is the body accountable to its membership
and to the broader communities in India, to address Bodhisattwa's concern
directly and politely, as befits an organization aiming to be
representative of the entire movement in India.  *Please* don't respond
with bluster, nor with [[whataboutism]].  If there was some poor governance
or inappropriate decision-making involved here, just own up to it,
apologize[1], and commit to doing better.  Everybody would appreciate you
for doing the right thing.

If the appearance Bodhisattwa's concern responds to is *incorrect*, by all
means, calmly respond with the facts as they are and demonstrate to the
community that there is nothing to be concerned about.  Also reflect on how
that appearance was created despite everything being okay, and what can,
and should, be done to prevent such appearances in the future. Thinking
about this, and sharing your conclusions, would also, I dare say, be
welcomed by the community on this mailing list.

I look forward to this matter resolving peacefully one way or another, but
please, let us stick to the substance of *this* thread on this thread, and
let us be fair and honest and avoid manipulative arguments and insinuations.

Warmly,

Asaf

[1] may I humble offer an essay I once wrote on the power of apologies for
our movement? it is here:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/So_you%27ve_made_a_mistake_and_it%27s_public...


On Thu, Aug 2, 2018 at 3:01 PM Abhinav srivastava 
wrote:

> Hello Bodhisattwa,
>
> The first line of the mail which at 12:02 by Indian Standard Time, you
> stated, "I understand you are felling bad with my toneI am sorry" .
>
> Apologies for getting this statement wrong, If I have.
>
> I would say, let us first address the point 1 which concerns response from
> WMIN. Other things can be put on *hold* and discussed, subsequently. I
> hope you would be in consent with this.
>
> I have received your mail concerning your Wikimania trip and allegations.
> I would like to re-iterate, neither then nor today, Wikimedia India pays
> any attention to those allegations. To my understanding (since I am not EC)
> Wikimedia India continues to have full faith in you.
>
> Rest assured, please be cautious, you are sending a little too many
> emails. I understand at times such issues happen but try and address them
> together. This would otherwise lead to spamming.
>
> Abhinav
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 2, 2018 at 5:15 PM Bodhisattwa Mandal <
> bodhisattwa.rg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi Abhinav,
>>
>>
>>
>> 1.   Now that Bodhisattwa has acknowledged on his inappropriate tone
>>> and it can be believed he would be a caution for future onwards and since
>>> the issue is in public domain, I would urge Wikimedia India to respond on
>>> this.
>>>
>>
>> Sorry missed this part,
>>
>> Where have I acknowledged that my tone was inappropriate? I only said
>> that, if you feel that the tone was not approprate, then I am sorry. To me,
>> my tone and my question are absolutely ok. Along with many others, I have
>> noticed a discrepancy and asked about the reason it in open mailing list,
>> so that everything remains transparent. I had to name the person involved,
>> otherwise the question seemed to be vague and meaningless. Everything I
>> said in my first e-mail was hard fact, almost everyone from India
>> participating in the conference knew about it and had the same question in
>> mind. If my (and others) question is invalid, then why there is no response
>> from WMIN, refuting everything after 6 days?
>>
>> So, instead of diverting the topic, if we stick to and discuss the topic
>> in which the thread was initiated, that would be great.
>>
>> Thanks
>> Bodhisattwa
>>
>> ___
>> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
>> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
>>
> ___
> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
>
___
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit 
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Abhinav srivastava]

Hello Bodhisattwa,

The first line of the mail which at 12:02 by Indian Standard Time, you
stated, "I understand you are felling bad with my toneI am sorry" .

Apologies for getting this statement wrong, If I have.

I would say, let us first address the point 1 which concerns response from
WMIN. Other things can be put on *hold* and discussed, subsequently. I hope
you would be in consent with this.

I have received your mail concerning your Wikimania trip and allegations. I
would like to re-iterate, neither then nor today, Wikimedia India pays any
attention to those allegations. To my understanding (since I am not EC)
Wikimedia India continues to have full faith in you.

Rest assured, please be cautious, you are sending a little too many emails.
I understand at times such issues happen but try and address them together.
This would otherwise lead to spamming.

Abhinav


On Thu, Aug 2, 2018 at 5:15 PM Bodhisattwa Mandal <
bodhisattwa.rg...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Hi Abhinav,
>
>
>
> 1.   Now that Bodhisattwa has acknowledged on his inappropriate tone
>> and it can be believed he would be a caution for future onwards and since
>> the issue is in public domain, I would urge Wikimedia India to respond on
>> this.
>>
>
> Sorry missed this part,
>
> Where have I acknowledged that my tone was inappropriate? I only said
> that, if you feel that the tone was not approprate, then I am sorry. To me,
> my tone and my question are absolutely ok. Along with many others, I have
> noticed a discrepancy and asked about the reason it in open mailing list,
> so that everything remains transparent. I had to name the person involved,
> otherwise the question seemed to be vague and meaningless. Everything I
> said in my first e-mail was hard fact, almost everyone from India
> participating in the conference knew about it and had the same question in
> mind. If my (and others) question is invalid, then why there is no response
> from WMIN, refuting everything after 6 days?
>
> So, instead of diverting the topic, if we stick to and discuss the topic
> in which the thread was initiated, that would be great.
>
> Thanks
> Bodhisattwa
>
> ___
> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
>
___
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit 
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Bodhisattwa Mandal]

Hi Abhinav,



1.   Now that Bodhisattwa has acknowledged on his inappropriate tone
> and it can be believed he would be a caution for future onwards and since
> the issue is in public domain, I would urge Wikimedia India to respond on
> this.
>

Sorry missed this part,

Where have I acknowledged that my tone was inappropriate? I only said that,
if you feel that the tone was not approprate, then I am sorry. To me, my
tone and my question are absolutely ok. Along with many others, I have
noticed a discrepancy and asked about the reason it in open mailing list,
so that everything remains transparent. I had to name the person involved,
otherwise the question seemed to be vague and meaningless. Everything I
said in my first e-mail was hard fact, almost everyone from India
participating in the conference knew about it and had the same question in
mind. If my (and others) question is invalid, then why there is no response
from WMIN, refuting everything after 6 days?

So, instead of diverting the topic, if we stick to and discuss the topic in
which the thread was initiated, that would be great.

Thanks
Bodhisattwa
___
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit 
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Subhashish Panigrahi]

Thanks Abhinav for all of this.

About #3: I indeed reached out to A2K staff and asked about the same questions 
that you asked me. I cannot day for them and I’d like to assume good faith, but 
I myself received the venue details late. I personally wanted everything to be 
done publicly, and discussed widely. But I was a participant rather than an 
organizer. The way and means of a meeting are not in my hands.

Secondly, I prefer in an approach of reflecting on the past and focus only on 
the learning. For me as a Wikimedian, sharing something useful with the 
community is important, and I believe I did that with my home community. Could 
I have done better? For sure, yes. I just didn’t have the bandwidth to write a 
blog post, or create a learning pattern at that point of time. I had my own 
disagreements as well. But I think there were valuable takeaways and I want to 
congratulate A2K for bringing those people for two days. I’d personally try 
(and have tried to do some in the last couple of engagements with the 
community) to fill the gaps that I experienced there.

Similarly, the points that I shared earlier were not to blame A2K or Rahul or 
WMIN, but to see the possibility of bettering the process. Maybe we all messed 
up small or big, and there is a way to better in our future work.

I’m committing to engage more openly and transparently as a long time 
Wikimedian, and a representative of the Odia Wikimedians User Group.

Cheers!
Subhashish

> On Aug 2, 2018, at 12:06 PM, Amritasya Putra  
> wrote:
> 
> My opinion: The sermonising-in-public-tone is also unfriendly.
> 
> Regards.
> 
>> On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 at 11:13 AM, Abhinav srivastava  
>> wrote:
>> Hello Satdeep, Bodhisattwa and All,
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> I believe the response to the first statement put by Satdeep, on having 
>> expected more discussions, stands firm, Indian community has advanced from 
>> the notion of “Constantly enduring in fights amongst themselves”. The 
>> mailing list have largely remained positive and most importantly friendly in 
>> nature for some time now. Indian community needs this kind of a behaviour.
>> 
>> While Bodhisattwa was absolutely democratic and correct in inquiring, 
>> debating or in fact questioning this issue, his tone could have been better. 
>> When the issue requires clarity of information, putting value judgements 
>> along with taking names, I believe this could have been put in a better 
>> manner. Otherwise, we haven’t progressed at all.
>> 
>> As far as Wikimania mailing list is concerned, I too subsequently inquired 
>> and I find response has been provided for the same, two days back. 
>> Bodhisattwa has been subsequently replying. Also, the respective mailing 
>> list advises that the issue is a different matter and not relevant for the 
>> mailing list. Satdeep, you did not inform about this information in your 
>> mail.
>> 
>> Bodhisattwa, as a past executive committee member of the Wikimedia India, I 
>> would like to say Wikimedia India always believes in the will of the 
>> community being the will of the executive committee. I can personally say, 
>> Chapter having no money, the Executive committee members have paid from 
>> their pockets to provide all the necessary support. You were also one of its 
>> recipients for Internet scholarship until some telecom companies started 
>> providing very pocket friendly price internet services and we requested you 
>> to shift (Reliance Jio). The several executive committee members did not 
>> earn still they paid from their pocket to support you and others. We did it 
>> because we always believed in you, your work has been fantastic even 
>> community members used to express their happiness to us for on having 
>> supported Bodhisattwa.
>> 
>> Like the allegation today, even two years back on Wikimania there happened 
>> to be an allegation on an Indian language village pump, concerning you and 
>> your travel. The Chapter paid no heed and remained firm in supporting you. 
>> Unnamed and unmentioned, I would say the editor who questioned then is also 
>> a very senior member and having been associated as a staff in few of the 
>> institutions which concerns us. Today, you seem to be in a very similar 
>> position, an experienced community who is questioning with no so proper tone 
>> and taking names. Bodhisattwa, you should lead the community members in 
>> promoting friendly space not doing the opposites.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Now, coming to responses made by Satdeep and Subhashish on the other thread. 
>> This issue requires much more gravity.  A lot of things have been happening 
>> without community being informed anything. This just not concerns one 
>> person.  Correct me if I am wrong, but this summer an affiliates conference 
>> was organised in Bengaluru, just before the Berlin Wikimedia Conference. To 
>> my understanding, all delegates were supposed to attend the conference were 
>> invited and others who reside in Bengaluru. But then, what 

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Bodhisattwa Mandal]

sorry again, few corrections from my side about the numbering,

Hi Abhinav,

1) I already said, I am sorry if you find my tone appropriate, but
attacking someone personally was never my intention. I question about the
non-transparent and undocumented process which happened and its a fact. I
still find my question extremely relevant and valid, which still remains
unanswered.

5) Got your personal mail and the link. I never knew that and amazed to see
that discussion was going on behind my back in another language Wiki where
i am not even part of. And although I didn't have to justify myself to
anyone, still I opened few glimpse of my personal life to you, hoping it
will remain between us.

6) I dont have hard evidence now, but if what we heard in Wikimania were
true, time will tell everything. By the way, some of the participants have
first-hand hearsay experience about those plans, but as those are not
revealed publicly by anyone, I am also not interested to discuss any of
that. Lets wait and see if they were bluff or had any truth in it..

Thanks,



On 2 August 2018 at 14:31, Bodhisattwa Mandal 
wrote:

> sorry, few corrections,
>
> Hi Abhinav,
>
> 1) I already said, I am sorry if you find my tone appropriate, but
> attacking someone personally was never my intention. I question about the
> non-transparent and undocumented process which happened and its a fact. I
> still find my question extremely relevant and valid, which still remains
> unanswered.
>
> 5) Got your personal mail and the link. I never knew that and amazed to
> see that discussion was going on behind my back in another language Wiki
> where i am not even part of. And although I didn't have to justify myself
> to anyone, still I opened few glimpse of my personal life to you, hoping it
> will remain between us.
>
> 6) I dont have hard evidence now, but if what we heard in Wikimania were
> true, time will tell everything. By the way, some of the participants have
> first-hand hearsay experience about those plans, but as those are not
> revealed publicly by anyone, I am also not interested to discuss any of
> that. Lets wait and see if they were bluff or had any truth in it..
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> On 2 August 2018 at 14:30, Bodhisattwa Mandal  > wrote:
>
>> Hi Abhinav,
>>
>> 1) Got your personal mail and the link. I never knew that and amazed to
>> see that discussion was going on behind my back in another language Wiki
>> where i am not even part of. And although I didn't have to justify myself
>> to anyone, still I opened few glimpse of my personal life to you, hoping it
>> will remain between us. I already said, I am sorry if you find my tone
>> appropriate, but attacking someone personally was never my intention. I
>> question about the non-transparent and undocumented process which happened
>> and its a fact. I still find my question extremely relevant and valid,
>> which still remains unanswered.
>>
>> 6) I dont have hard evidence now, but if what we heard in Wikimania were
>> true, time will tell everything. By the way, some of the participants have
>> first-hand hearsay experience about those plans, but as those are not
>> revealed publicly by anyone, I am also not interested to discuss any of
>> that. Lets wait and see if they were bluff or had any truth in it..
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> On 2 August 2018 at 12:06, Amritasya Putra 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> My opinion: The sermonising-in-public-tone is also unfriendly.
>>>
>>> Regards.
>>>
>>> On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 at 11:13 AM, Abhinav srivastava 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Hello Satdeep, Bodhisattwa and All,



 I believe the response to the first statement put by Satdeep, on having
 expected more discussions, stands firm, Indian community has advanced from
 the notion of “Constantly enduring in fights amongst themselves”. The
 mailing list have largely remained positive and most importantly friendly
 in nature for some time now. Indian community needs this kind of a
 behaviour.

 While Bodhisattwa was absolutely democratic and correct in inquiring,
 debating or in fact questioning this issue, his tone could have been
 better. When the issue requires clarity of information, putting value
 judgements along with taking names, I believe this could have been put in a
 better manner. Otherwise, we haven’t progressed at all.

 As far as Wikimania mailing list is concerned, I too subsequently
 inquired and I find response has been provided for the same, two days back.
 Bodhisattwa has been subsequently replying. Also, the respective mailing
 list advises that the issue is a different matter and not relevant for the
 mailing list. Satdeep, you did not inform about this information in your
 mail.

 Bodhisattwa, as a past executive committee member of the Wikimedia
 India, I would like to say Wikimedia India always believes in the will of
 the community being the will of the executive committee. I can personally
 

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Bodhisattwa Mandal]

sorry, few corrections,

Hi Abhinav,

1) I already said, I am sorry if you find my tone appropriate, but
attacking someone personally was never my intention. I question about the
non-transparent and undocumented process which happened and its a fact. I
still find my question extremely relevant and valid, which still remains
unanswered.

5) Got your personal mail and the link. I never knew that and amazed to see
that discussion was going on behind my back in another language Wiki where
i am not even part of. And although I didn't have to justify myself to
anyone, still I opened few glimpse of my personal life to you, hoping it
will remain between us.

6) I dont have hard evidence now, but if what we heard in Wikimania were
true, time will tell everything. By the way, some of the participants have
first-hand hearsay experience about those plans, but as those are not
revealed publicly by anyone, I am also not interested to discuss any of
that. Lets wait and see if they were bluff or had any truth in it..

Thanks,


On 2 August 2018 at 14:30, Bodhisattwa Mandal 
wrote:

> Hi Abhinav,
>
> 1) Got your personal mail and the link. I never knew that and amazed to
> see that discussion was going on behind my back in another language Wiki
> where i am not even part of. And although I didn't have to justify myself
> to anyone, still I opened few glimpse of my personal life to you, hoping it
> will remain between us. I already said, I am sorry if you find my tone
> appropriate, but attacking someone personally was never my intention. I
> question about the non-transparent and undocumented process which happened
> and its a fact. I still find my question extremely relevant and valid,
> which still remains unanswered.
>
> 6) I dont have hard evidence now, but if what we heard in Wikimania were
> true, time will tell everything. By the way, some of the participants have
> first-hand hearsay experience about those plans, but as those are not
> revealed publicly by anyone, I am also not interested to discuss any of
> that. Lets wait and see if they were bluff or had any truth in it..
>
> Thanks,
>
> On 2 August 2018 at 12:06, Amritasya Putra 
> wrote:
>
>> My opinion: The sermonising-in-public-tone is also unfriendly.
>>
>> Regards.
>>
>> On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 at 11:13 AM, Abhinav srivastava 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello Satdeep, Bodhisattwa and All,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I believe the response to the first statement put by Satdeep, on having
>>> expected more discussions, stands firm, Indian community has advanced from
>>> the notion of “Constantly enduring in fights amongst themselves”. The
>>> mailing list have largely remained positive and most importantly friendly
>>> in nature for some time now. Indian community needs this kind of a
>>> behaviour.
>>>
>>> While Bodhisattwa was absolutely democratic and correct in inquiring,
>>> debating or in fact questioning this issue, his tone could have been
>>> better. When the issue requires clarity of information, putting value
>>> judgements along with taking names, I believe this could have been put in a
>>> better manner. Otherwise, we haven’t progressed at all.
>>>
>>> As far as Wikimania mailing list is concerned, I too subsequently
>>> inquired and I find response has been provided for the same, two days back.
>>> Bodhisattwa has been subsequently replying. Also, the respective mailing
>>> list advises that the issue is a different matter and not relevant for the
>>> mailing list. Satdeep, you did not inform about this information in your
>>> mail.
>>>
>>> Bodhisattwa, as a past executive committee member of the Wikimedia
>>> India, I would like to say Wikimedia India always believes in the will of
>>> the community being the will of the executive committee. I can personally
>>> say, Chapter having no money, the Executive committee members have paid
>>> from their pockets to provide all the necessary support. You were also one
>>> of its recipients for Internet scholarship until some telecom companies
>>> started providing very pocket friendly price internet services and we
>>> requested you to shift (Reliance Jio). The several executive committee
>>> members did not earn still they paid from their pocket to support you and
>>> others. We did it because we always believed in you, your work has been
>>> fantastic even community members used to express their happiness to us for
>>> on having supported Bodhisattwa.
>>>
>>> Like the allegation today, even two years back on Wikimania there
>>> happened to be an allegation on an Indian language village pump, concerning
>>> you and your travel. The Chapter paid no heed and remained firm in
>>> supporting you. Unnamed and unmentioned, I would say the editor who
>>> questioned then is also a very senior member and having been associated as
>>> a staff in few of the institutions which concerns us. Today, you seem to be
>>> in a very similar position, an experienced community who is questioning
>>> with no so proper tone and taking names. 

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Bodhisattwa Mandal]

Hi Abhinav,

1) Got your personal mail and the link. I never knew that and amazed to see
that discussion was going on behind my back in another language Wiki where
i am not even part of. And although I didn't have to justify myself to
anyone, still I opened few glimpse of my personal life to you, hoping it
will remain between us. I already said, I am sorry if you find my tone
appropriate, but attacking someone personally was never my intention. I
question about the non-transparent and undocumented process which happened
and its a fact. I still find my question extremely relevant and valid,
which still remains unanswered.

6) I dont have hard evidence now, but if what we heard in Wikimania were
true, time will tell everything. By the way, some of the participants have
first-hand hearsay experience about those plans, but as those are not
revealed publicly by anyone, I am also not interested to discuss any of
that. Lets wait and see if they were bluff or had any truth in it..

Thanks,

On 2 August 2018 at 12:06, Amritasya Putra 
wrote:

> My opinion: The sermonising-in-public-tone is also unfriendly.
>
> Regards.
>
> On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 at 11:13 AM, Abhinav srivastava 
> wrote:
>
>> Hello Satdeep, Bodhisattwa and All,
>>
>>
>>
>> I believe the response to the first statement put by Satdeep, on having
>> expected more discussions, stands firm, Indian community has advanced from
>> the notion of “Constantly enduring in fights amongst themselves”. The
>> mailing list have largely remained positive and most importantly friendly
>> in nature for some time now. Indian community needs this kind of a
>> behaviour.
>>
>> While Bodhisattwa was absolutely democratic and correct in inquiring,
>> debating or in fact questioning this issue, his tone could have been
>> better. When the issue requires clarity of information, putting value
>> judgements along with taking names, I believe this could have been put in a
>> better manner. Otherwise, we haven’t progressed at all.
>>
>> As far as Wikimania mailing list is concerned, I too subsequently
>> inquired and I find response has been provided for the same, two days back.
>> Bodhisattwa has been subsequently replying. Also, the respective mailing
>> list advises that the issue is a different matter and not relevant for the
>> mailing list. Satdeep, you did not inform about this information in your
>> mail.
>>
>> Bodhisattwa, as a past executive committee member of the Wikimedia India,
>> I would like to say Wikimedia India always believes in the will of the
>> community being the will of the executive committee. I can personally say,
>> Chapter having no money, the Executive committee members have paid from
>> their pockets to provide all the necessary support. You were also one of
>> its recipients for Internet scholarship until some telecom companies
>> started providing very pocket friendly price internet services and we
>> requested you to shift (Reliance Jio). The several executive committee
>> members did not earn still they paid from their pocket to support you and
>> others. We did it because we always believed in you, your work has been
>> fantastic even community members used to express their happiness to us for
>> on having supported Bodhisattwa.
>>
>> Like the allegation today, even two years back on Wikimania there
>> happened to be an allegation on an Indian language village pump, concerning
>> you and your travel. The Chapter paid no heed and remained firm in
>> supporting you. Unnamed and unmentioned, I would say the editor who
>> questioned then is also a very senior member and having been associated as
>> a staff in few of the institutions which concerns us. Today, you seem to be
>> in a very similar position, an experienced community who is questioning
>> with no so proper tone and taking names. Bodhisattwa, you should lead the
>> community members in promoting friendly space not doing the opposites.
>>
>>
>>
>> Now, coming to responses made by Satdeep and Subhashish on the other
>> thread. This issue requires much more gravity.  A lot of things have been
>> happening without community being informed anything. This just not concerns
>> one person.  Correct me if I am wrong, but this summer an affiliates
>> conference was organised in Bengaluru, just before the Berlin Wikimedia
>> Conference. To my understanding, all delegates were supposed to attend the
>> conference were invited and others who reside in Bengaluru. But then, what
>> was the need to make this exercise secret in nature. Again, only to my
>> understanding, this was organised by Centre for Internet and Society. Like
>> Subhashish has mentioned, need for a consensus, share it on Wiki for
>> transparency or not, participants create Learning Patterns and write report
>> etc. Such things should happen here too. Also, is there an event page on
>> Meta about this meeting?
>>
>>
>>
>> To my CIS friends, nothing personal here, the argument on transparency
>> has been happening so I though of voicing 

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Amritasya Putra]

My opinion: The sermonising-in-public-tone is also unfriendly.

Regards.

On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 at 11:13 AM, Abhinav srivastava 
wrote:

> Hello Satdeep, Bodhisattwa and All,
>
>
>
> I believe the response to the first statement put by Satdeep, on having
> expected more discussions, stands firm, Indian community has advanced from
> the notion of “Constantly enduring in fights amongst themselves”. The
> mailing list have largely remained positive and most importantly friendly
> in nature for some time now. Indian community needs this kind of a
> behaviour.
>
> While Bodhisattwa was absolutely democratic and correct in inquiring,
> debating or in fact questioning this issue, his tone could have been
> better. When the issue requires clarity of information, putting value
> judgements along with taking names, I believe this could have been put in a
> better manner. Otherwise, we haven’t progressed at all.
>
> As far as Wikimania mailing list is concerned, I too subsequently inquired
> and I find response has been provided for the same, two days back.
> Bodhisattwa has been subsequently replying. Also, the respective mailing
> list advises that the issue is a different matter and not relevant for the
> mailing list. Satdeep, you did not inform about this information in your
> mail.
>
> Bodhisattwa, as a past executive committee member of the Wikimedia India,
> I would like to say Wikimedia India always believes in the will of the
> community being the will of the executive committee. I can personally say,
> Chapter having no money, the Executive committee members have paid from
> their pockets to provide all the necessary support. You were also one of
> its recipients for Internet scholarship until some telecom companies
> started providing very pocket friendly price internet services and we
> requested you to shift (Reliance Jio). The several executive committee
> members did not earn still they paid from their pocket to support you and
> others. We did it because we always believed in you, your work has been
> fantastic even community members used to express their happiness to us for
> on having supported Bodhisattwa.
>
> Like the allegation today, even two years back on Wikimania there happened
> to be an allegation on an Indian language village pump, concerning you and
> your travel. The Chapter paid no heed and remained firm in supporting you.
> Unnamed and unmentioned, I would say the editor who questioned then is also
> a very senior member and having been associated as a staff in few of the
> institutions which concerns us. Today, you seem to be in a very similar
> position, an experienced community who is questioning with no so proper
> tone and taking names. Bodhisattwa, you should lead the community members
> in promoting friendly space not doing the opposites.
>
>
>
> Now, coming to responses made by Satdeep and Subhashish on the other
> thread. This issue requires much more gravity.  A lot of things have been
> happening without community being informed anything. This just not concerns
> one person.  Correct me if I am wrong, but this summer an affiliates
> conference was organised in Bengaluru, just before the Berlin Wikimedia
> Conference. To my understanding, all delegates were supposed to attend the
> conference were invited and others who reside in Bengaluru. But then, what
> was the need to make this exercise secret in nature. Again, only to my
> understanding, this was organised by Centre for Internet and Society. Like
> Subhashish has mentioned, need for a consensus, share it on Wiki for
> transparency or not, participants create Learning Patterns and write report
> etc. Such things should happen here too. Also, is there an event page on
> Meta about this meeting?
>
>
>
> To my CIS friends, nothing personal here, the argument on transparency has
> been happening so I though of voicing my views. I would advise you to keep
> informing the community of your activities, I cannot find any monthly work
> reports which used to be shared earlier. In fact, the meta page does not
> even provide a 2018 section for reports. Please look into this, we are in
> the 8th month of the year. My piece of advice would be let someone
> volunteer and create your reports, if you do not have staff at the moment.
> Just like Wikimedia India were reports are created by volunteers.
>
>
>
> At last, Bodhisattwa, my friend, like Satdeep and Subhashish raise your
> voice but maintain friendly spirt.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 2, 2018 at 12:26 AM Satdeep Gill 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I expected more discussion on this. Although, Subhashish reposted this on
>> Wikimania mailing list and asked some really good questions.
>>
>> I agree with Subha that if an affiliate decides to send someone to
>> Wikimania then the whole selection process should be transparent and also
>> some reporting guidelines should be established similar to Wikimania.
>>
>> All this can help ensure trust of the 

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Abhinav srivastava]

Hello Bodhisattwa, Subhashish, Satdeep and All,

Thanks for Writing Back!

To avoid the jumping up of issues, I have listed them point-wise, in case I
have missed any please feel free to add.

1.   Now that Bodhisattwa has acknowledged on his inappropriate tone
and it can be believed he would be a caution for future onwards and since
the issue is in public domain, I would urge Wikimedia India to respond on
this.



2.  As highlighted by Subhashish, it is essentially the problem of
organizational process. I would like to add that the role is essentially
not restricted to Wikimedia India or CIS-A2K but also User Groups and
Wikimedia Foundation Staff. All need to look coherent and work together.
For instance, Satdeep is often questioned for being part-time WMF employee,
being AffCom Committee member (attending the Berlin Conference in this
capacity) and then Wikimania (attending as a volunteer). Not only the
Indian community but also foundation needs to reflect on this. Having a say
in recognizing User Groups in India and simultaneously being holding India
Outreach Office. Satdeep, my friend, nothing personal, but better
understanding can be made here.



3.  Bengaluru Meetings: Subhashish, my question is why is community
made ignorant about such meeting. Your previous message only tells me that
you were part of it. Like the healthy bullet points you have shared, you
should have initiated the same process out there. You knew about the
meeting and attended it. The amount of experience you carry, you should be
more careful and lead other fellow community members.



4.  I believe there is nothing bounding CIS-A2K staff from hiring
someone to do their reports. I believe they could have already done that.
All I meant, CIS-A2K has such a big staff base still someone cannot find
time to share it on the mailing list and even if someone visits their
official Meta page – Report Section, one does not even find 2018 listed.





Additional Comments –

5.  Bodhisattwa, the details on your Wikimania trip have been shared on
your personal email address. I would request you to acknowledge the same
here.

6.  Bodhisattwa, last time I voted in Indian General Elections 2014, I
had come to know that Rs 15 lakh would come in my bank account. Neither did
I vote for that person, nor it has reached me. I am putting this on the
official record, the day I receive it, I will donate entire money to
Wikimedia projects 

Is there a substance to what you are hearing? I do not know what is this
about, but if there is any paperwork please share it. Otherwise, no
speculative talk on the mailing list, please. A strict No!

 (Can Drop Additional Comments )


Abhinav













On Thu, Aug 2, 2018 at 12:02 PM Bodhisattwa Mandal <
bodhisattwa.rg...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Abhinav,
>
> Thanks for your mail.
>
>
> On Thu, 2 Aug 2018, 11:13 Abhinav srivastava, 
> wrote:
>
>> Hello Satdeep, Bodhisattwa and All,
>>
>>
>>
>> I believe the response to the first statement put by Satdeep, on having
>> expected more discussions, stands firm, Indian community has advanced from
>> the notion of “Constantly enduring in fights amongst themselves”. The
>> mailing list have largely remained positive and most importantly friendly
>> in nature for some time now. Indian community needs this kind of a
>> behaviour.
>>
>> While Bodhisattwa was absolutely democratic and correct in inquiring,
>> debating or in fact questioning this issue, his tone could have been
>> better. When the issue requires clarity of information, putting value
>> judgements along with taking names, I believe this could have been put in a
>> better manner. Otherwise, we haven’t progressed at all.
>>
>
> I understand, as a past EC member of WMIN, you are feeling bad with my
> tone, for that I am sorry. I request you to ignore my tone and discuss
> about my question. How can a non-scholarship recipient and not in the
> waiting list be selected to attend Wikimania with donation money depriving
> those who were in the waiting list. I just want to know about the
> documentation, so that everything becomes clear to me.
>
>
>> As far as Wikimania mailing list is concerned, I too subsequently
>> inquired and I find response has been provided for the same, two days back.
>> Bodhisattwa has been subsequently replying. Also, the respective mailing
>> list advises that the issue is a different matter and not relevant for the
>> mailing list. Satdeep, you did not inform about this information in your
>> mail.
>>
>> Bodhisattwa, as a past executive committee member of the Wikimedia India,
>> I would like to say Wikimedia India always believes in the will of the
>> community being the will of the executive committee. I can personally say,
>> Chapter having no money, the Executive committee members have paid from
>> their pockets to provide all the necessary support. You were also one of
>> its recipients for Internet scholarship until some telecom companies
>> started providing 

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Bodhisattwa Mandal]

Hi Abhinav,

Thanks for your mail.


On Thu, 2 Aug 2018, 11:13 Abhinav srivastava,  wrote:

> Hello Satdeep, Bodhisattwa and All,
>
>
>
> I believe the response to the first statement put by Satdeep, on having
> expected more discussions, stands firm, Indian community has advanced from
> the notion of “Constantly enduring in fights amongst themselves”. The
> mailing list have largely remained positive and most importantly friendly
> in nature for some time now. Indian community needs this kind of a
> behaviour.
>
> While Bodhisattwa was absolutely democratic and correct in inquiring,
> debating or in fact questioning this issue, his tone could have been
> better. When the issue requires clarity of information, putting value
> judgements along with taking names, I believe this could have been put in a
> better manner. Otherwise, we haven’t progressed at all.
>

I understand, as a past EC member of WMIN, you are feeling bad with my
tone, for that I am sorry. I request you to ignore my tone and discuss
about my question. How can a non-scholarship recipient and not in the
waiting list be selected to attend Wikimania with donation money depriving
those who were in the waiting list. I just want to know about the
documentation, so that everything becomes clear to me.


> As far as Wikimania mailing list is concerned, I too subsequently inquired
> and I find response has been provided for the same, two days back.
> Bodhisattwa has been subsequently replying. Also, the respective mailing
> list advises that the issue is a different matter and not relevant for the
> mailing list. Satdeep, you did not inform about this information in your
> mail.
>
> Bodhisattwa, as a past executive committee member of the Wikimedia India,
> I would like to say Wikimedia India always believes in the will of the
> community being the will of the executive committee. I can personally say,
> Chapter having no money, the Executive committee members have paid from
> their pockets to provide all the necessary support. You were also one of
> its recipients for Internet scholarship until some telecom companies
> started providing very pocket friendly price internet services and we
> requested you to shift (Reliance Jio). The several executive committee
> members did not earn still they paid from their pocket to support you and
> others. We did it because we always believed in you, your work has been
> fantastic even community members used to express their happiness to us for
> on having supported Bodhisattwa.
>
For that, I am always thankful to WMIN, specially Yohann and you, as I got
support when it was badly needed. I have never forgotten that and will
never forget. But things have changed now in WMIN. I along with other
patricipants in the conference from India have heard of future plans and
incidents related to present WMIN president, which are not in the spirit of
the Wikimedia movement. If you want to know about those, I can tell, others
can confirm, if they are true or not.


> Like the allegation today, even two years back on Wikimania there happened
> to be an allegation on an Indian language village pump, concerning you and
> your travel. The Chapter paid no heed and remained firm in supporting you.
> Unnamed and unmentioned, I would say the editor who questioned then is also
> a very senior member and having been associated as a staff in few of the
> institutions which concerns us. Today, you seem to be in a very similar
> position, an experienced community who is questioning with no so proper
> tone and taking names. Bodhisattwa, you should lead the community members
> in promoting friendly space not doing the opposites.
>

It is completely new for me, or may be I have completely forgotten, when
did that happen that some senior member objected against my Wikimania
participation on an Indian language village pump. Can you please send me
the link of that discussion, so that I can remember everything. Pardon my
retrograde amnesia, may be I am getting old and my memory cells are not
working as before. As it was my second Wikimania and luckily I got a full
scholarship to attend the conference, I am really interested to see that
discussion and comprehend from the point of objection again. Please send me
the link, dont forget, please.


> At last, Bodhisattwa, my friend, like Satdeep and Subhashish raise your
> voice but maintain friendly spirt.
>
As I said before, please, my friend, ignore my tone and stick to the
question I asked.

Waiting for your reply,

Bodhisattwa
___
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit 
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Subhashish Panigrahi]

Totally agree, Abhinav. Much appreciate for highlighting the friendly space
aspect as that is very important (and is a very difficult balancing act).

For some context, esp. those who are not in the Wikimania list, sharing
below what I wrote there earlier.


Though I’m not sure if it’d be right to take names here, but this is
probably an opportunity to discuss about:

- if there is a need for consensus when a Wikimedia affiliate provides
support to one person from another affiliate
- if an affiliate provides support if they share it on wiki for
transparency or not
- Wikimania scholarship recipients generally create Learning Patterns and
write reports. These are good practices in general but making it mandatory
for the scholarship recipients brings out a really valuable pool of
knowledge which otherwise might not be the case because of the post-
Wikimania fatigue. There is a need for more clarity if non-Wikimania
participants (individual/affiliate reps) who travel because of support from
another affiliate should also produce the same
- If an affiliate decides to provide support, should they announce publicly
(on regional mailman lists and meta/village pumps) if there is any
conflict. If there was a rationale that the former used to identify certain
individuals, should they share that as well?

I think discussing these above would be useful in general.



I'd reiterate that it is important to discuss about issues because the
larger problem is about organizational processes (and open and transparent
nature of the same) rather than an individual. So IMO the subject of
discussion is is not Rahul but how organizational supports are provided.

I generally agree with Abhinav's points. Also, much appreciate Wikimedia
India leadership for their contribution to the movement in difficult times.

That said, there is a need to discuss about the issues that concern the
larger Indian community, and both Wikimedia India and CIS-A2K are two major
stakeholders. It would be great to hear from each side how they see this.

About the Bangalore meeting prior to WMCON, I joined as an Odia Wikimedians
UG rep, and shared the outcomes of the same with my community in serveral
occasions. I didn't create an LP and I still hold myself accountable for
the same.

On the last bit about CIS-A2K's reporting, I personally don't think a team
that is paid can be compared to an organization that is run by volunteers.
Maybe an intern can do it, but the community might be interested to
volunteer to write CIS-A2K's reports. Again, my personal view.

Subhashish

On Thu, Aug 2, 2018 at 11:13 AM, Abhinav srivastava 
wrote:

> Hello Satdeep, Bodhisattwa and All,
>
>
>
> I believe the response to the first statement put by Satdeep, on having
> expected more discussions, stands firm, Indian community has advanced from
> the notion of “Constantly enduring in fights amongst themselves”. The
> mailing list have largely remained positive and most importantly friendly
> in nature for some time now. Indian community needs this kind of a
> behaviour.
>
> While Bodhisattwa was absolutely democratic and correct in inquiring,
> debating or in fact questioning this issue, his tone could have been
> better. When the issue requires clarity of information, putting value
> judgements along with taking names, I believe this could have been put in a
> better manner. Otherwise, we haven’t progressed at all.
>
> As far as Wikimania mailing list is concerned, I too subsequently inquired
> and I find response has been provided for the same, two days back.
> Bodhisattwa has been subsequently replying. Also, the respective mailing
> list advises that the issue is a different matter and not relevant for the
> mailing list. Satdeep, you did not inform about this information in your
> mail.
>
> Bodhisattwa, as a past executive committee member of the Wikimedia India,
> I would like to say Wikimedia India always believes in the will of the
> community being the will of the executive committee. I can personally say,
> Chapter having no money, the Executive committee members have paid from
> their pockets to provide all the necessary support. You were also one of
> its recipients for Internet scholarship until some telecom companies
> started providing very pocket friendly price internet services and we
> requested you to shift (Reliance Jio). The several executive committee
> members did not earn still they paid from their pocket to support you and
> others. We did it because we always believed in you, your work has been
> fantastic even community members used to express their happiness to us for
> on having supported Bodhisattwa.
>
> Like the allegation today, even two years back on Wikimania there happened
> to be an allegation on an Indian language village pump, concerning you and
> your travel. The Chapter paid no heed and remained firm in supporting you.
> Unnamed and unmentioned, I would say the editor who questioned then is also
> a very senior member and having been 

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Satdeep Gill]

Hi all,

I expected more discussion on this. Although, Subhashish reposted this on
Wikimania mailing list and asked some really good questions.

I agree with Subha that if an affiliate decides to send someone to
Wikimania then the whole selection process should be transparent and also
some reporting guidelines should be established similar to Wikimania.

All this can help ensure trust of the wider Wikimedia community in our
processes and decisions.

I do want to hear why was it deemed necessary for the WMIN President to be
present at that informal meetup during Wikimania.

I do know that for some other Chapters whose chairperson's were not
attending Wikimania, some editor Board/EC member attended the meetup on
their behalf.

I expect to hear more about this.

Regards
Satdeep Gill

Community Outreach Coordinator, Wikimedia Foundation

Co-founder, Punjabi Wikimedians

Member, Affiliations Committee

Member, Language Committee



On Fri, 27 Jul 2018 at 17:30,  Bodhisattwa Mandal <
bodhisattwa.rg...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> WMIN chapter president Rahul Deshmukh attended Wikimania 2018 in Cape Town
> without being selected for any type of scholarship. My question is why was
> he sent to the conference depriving other community members from India who
> were in the waiting list.
>
> He spoke in the informal chairpersons' meetup for few minutes. The meeting
> doesn't require president of the organization's presence, and already there
> were 2 EC member of WMIN present, who could have attended the meeting.
>
> To me, this is utter misuse of power and abuse of donation money.
>
> Thanks,
> Bodhisattwa
> -- next part --
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/attachments/20180727/0bc24b91/attachment-0001.html
> >
>
> --
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> ___
> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
>
>
> --
>
> End of Wikimediaindia-l Digest, Vol 1465, Issue 1
> *
>
___
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit 
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l