On 9/11/10 2:48 PM, Jamie Morken wrote:
Doing the same on my log of the secret channel gives 100903 00:03:40, meaning
it has roughly the same traffic level as #wikimedia-tech over that period.
Anyone who hangs out there can tell you that almost nothing there is secret.
I can't speak for
On 13 September 2010 21:14, emijrp emi...@gmail.com wrote:
I think that Jamie has started an important topic. I don't think that WMF is
going to usurp Wikipedia and the sister projects now or in the future, but
it is statistically possible. If we want to protect us, the human knowledge
and
Also, I think that we need to start mirroring Wiki[mp]edia dumps to other
servers around the globe, as the common GNU/Linux ISOs mirrors do. Also,
Library of Congress said some time ago that they are going to save a copy of
all the tweets sent to Twitter.[6] When are they going to save a copy
On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 1:44 PM, Ryan Kaldari rkald...@wikimedia.org wrote:
Regarding private-l, my
understanding is that that list was originally set up to deal with
real-life wikistalking issues, which obviously requires privacy to
discuss. Please correct me if that is incorrect.
My
On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 6:24 PM, Casey Brown li...@caseybrown.org wrote:
On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 1:44 PM, Ryan Kaldari rkald...@wikimedia.org wrote:
Regarding private-l, my
understanding is that that list was originally set up to deal with
real-life wikistalking issues, which obviously
: [Wikitech-l] Community vs. centralized development
To: Wikimedia developers wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Cc: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List foundatio...@lists.wikimedia.org
Also, I think that we need to start mirroring Wiki[mp]edia
dumps to other
servers around the globe, as the common
On 12.09.2010, 1:48 Jamie wrote:
On 9/8/2010 10:18 AM, Aryeh Gregor wrote:
Well, this is
probably my last post on this subject for now. I think
I've made my points. Those who don't get them yet probably will
continue not to get them, and those who get them but disagree
probably
[...]
On 9/8/2010 10:18 AM, Aryeh Gregor wrote:
Well, this is
probably my last post on this subject for now. I think
I've made my points. Those who don't get them yet probably will
continue not to get them, and those who get them but disagree
probably
will continue to disagree. It looks like
On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 1:58 PM, Roan Kattouw roan.katt...@gmail.com wrote:
2010/9/9 Neil Kandalgaonkar ne...@wikimedia.org:
I need an open source irony detector.
Hint: it starts with this code:
if ( $name === 'domas' ) return true;
fixme: needs curly braces.
-Chad
2010/9/8 David Gerard dger...@gmail.com:
This is something that's been a problem for years now.
I do not think there is any sort of deliberate intent. However,
keeping the data close is a way to proprietise a wiki even if it's
free content, so making it easy to fork is an important attitude
2010/9/9 Jamie Morken jmor...@shaw.ca:
Hi,
I created a yahoo group for people interested in continuing the discussion on
Community vs. centralized development as well as up to date wiki backups.
Please join if you want to help to keep the Wikimedia foundation part of the
community or
Στις 09-09-2010, ημέρα Πεμ, και ώρα 20:08 +0200, ο/η Roan Kattouw
έγραψε:
2010/9/8 David Gerard dger...@gmail.com:
This is something that's been a problem for years now.
I do not think there is any sort of deliberate intent. However,
keeping the data close is a way to proprietise a wiki
2010/9/9 Neil Kandalgaonkar ne...@wikimedia.org:
I need an open source irony detector.
Hint: it starts with this code:
if ( $name === 'domas' ) return true;
Roan Kattouw (Catrope)
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On 2010-09-07, Ryan Kaldari wrote:
I am both a long-time community member and a new WMF paid developer (in
the SF office) so I think I'm in a unique position to clear up some
misconceptions.
First of all, all this talk of secret listservs and IRC channels is
malarkey. Yes, there are
2010/9/7 Robert Leverington rob...@rhl.me.uk:
if so where are the
minutes and notes for these, because MediaWiki.org seems the obvious
place to put them?
Indeed, there are lots of face-to-face meetings / teleconferences
where minutes are currently captured on EtherPad, but I don't think
these
Well, this is probably my last post on this subject for now. I think
I've made my points. Those who don't get them yet probably will
continue not to get them, and those who get them but disagree probably
will continue to disagree. It looks like nothing big is going to
change right now, but I
Hi,
I was involved in an open source project that was usurped by one of the main
developers for the sole reason of making money, and that project continues now
to take advantage of the community to increase the profit of that developer. I
never would have thought such a thing was possible
On 8 September 2010 22:15, Jamie Morken jmor...@shaw.ca wrote:
I was involved in an open source project that was usurped by one of the main
developers for the sole reason of making money, and that project continues
now to take advantage of the community to increase the profit of that
On 8 September 2010 23:00, Ryan Kaldari rkald...@wikimedia.org wrote:
I had no idea that usurping an open source project was as easy as not
providing full history back-ups and image dumps. And here I was trying
to replace all the board members with proxies from Wikia! What a waste
of time ;)
On 9/8/2010 1:45 PM, Ryan Kaldari wrote:
On 9/7/10 11:23 PM, Robert Leverington wrote:
This may well be true for the community in general, but this discussion
is specifically about the volunteer developer community, which is
clearly being left out of the loop in a large respect - otherwise
Hi,
I created a yahoo group for people interested in continuing the discussion on
Community vs. centralized development as well as up to date wiki backups.
Please join if you want to help to keep the Wikimedia foundation part of the
community or just like chatting about it! Here is the group
Hi!
I created a yahoo group
Why not Facebook Page?!!?
Domas
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On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 8:11 PM, Domas Mituzas midom.li...@gmail.com wrote:
Hi!
I created a yahoo group
Why not Facebook Page?!!?
Domas
Or a new mailing list!
Just like wikitext-l, a specialized list :)
-Chad
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On 9 September 2010 01:25, Chad innocentkil...@gmail.com wrote:
Just like wikitext-l, a specialized list :)
Careful there, wikitext-l may have come up with something slightly
useful. You never know what might breed in such a swamp.
- d.
___
On 9/8/10 2:26 PM, Domas Mituzas wrote:
Hi!
... there would now be open source hardware
Do you need open source Enter key?
Open source hardware isn't an inherent absurdity... it usually means
that the hardware designs or other precursors (such as code that can
generate circuit
On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 8:28 PM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote:
On 9 September 2010 01:25, Chad innocentkil...@gmail.com wrote:
Just like wikitext-l, a specialized list :)
Careful there, wikitext-l may have come up with something slightly
useful. You never know what might breed in
On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 8:32 PM, Neil Kandalgaonkar ne...@wikimedia.org wrote:
On 9/8/10 2:26 PM, Domas Mituzas wrote:
Hi!
... there would now be open source hardware
Do you need open source Enter key?
Open source hardware isn't an inherent absurdity... it usually means
that the
On 9/8/10 5:35 PM, Chad wrote:
I think the point was not about hardware, but the OPs
inability to include a single linebreak in the e-mail.
I need an open source irony detector.
--
Neil Kandalgaonkar ne...@wikimedia.org
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Why decentralized discussions even more? And is there a reason you
always seem to spilt your replies to the thread into new treads/topics
instead of just replying to the original one?
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I made seven suggestions. Only one was about actually dissolving the
office, and I acknowledged that it might be extreme. What about the
others? Why does the private IRC chat need to exist, for example?
Why can't we have clear official statements that everything should be
as public as
On 9/7/10 4:15 PM, Robert Stojnic wrote:
The community needs to be nurtured, and I think all new employees of the
WMF need to be aware of it, and at first interview informed that they
will *need* to interact with the community and with volunteer
developers.
Just FYI, this was the
I am both a long-time community member and a new WMF paid developer (in
the SF office) so I think I'm in a unique position to clear up some
misconceptions.
First of all, all this talk of secret listservs and IRC channels is
malarkey. Yes, there are private listservs and IRC channels. All of
2010/9/6 Ryan Lane rlan...@gmail.com:
The chat in those channels isn't anything crucial or even related to
development. If the channels go away, the talk that occurs there will
simply move to private chats on IM. This being on IRC just makes it
slightly easier to broadcast things to staff
2010/9/6 Jamie Morken jmor...@shaw.ca:
So it sounds like respect is also centralized in the wikimedia foundation,
please include me in your email to your underlings Tim, as I would also like
to have respect, maybe it will mean my request for image dumps is taken
seriously! It would be nice
So it sounds like
respect is also centralized in the wikimedia foundation, please
include
me in your email to your underlings Tim, as I would also like to
have
respect, maybe it will mean my request for image dumps is taken
seriously!? It would be nice if respect was earned, but it
Jamie Morken wrote:
Hi,
What do you mean by opening?
enwiki pages-meta-history is hard due to its size, not because
Ariel or
Tomasz being more stupid than any volunteer.
I trust them to do it at least as well as a volunteer would.
Of course, if you can perform better I'm all for giving
On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 9:50 AM, Platonides platoni...@gmail.com wrote:
enwiki has a total of 858979 local files which sum 229 GB (and there's
still commmons). 2357967 unique images (37050694 uses) are in their
articles. Assuming 20Kb per image thumb (is that a good value?), that's
48 Gb, more
On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 2:06 PM, OQ overlo...@gmail.com wrote:
Have to say this is the first I've heard of this channel existing. Yay
for communication.
It was only created very recently.
On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 2:14 PM, Chad innocentkil...@gmail.com wrote:
As I've said elsewhere to people,
Hi,
I think it would be a nice gesture if the wikimedia foundation decentralized
some of the internal projects that have had little success over the last few
years. Two that come to mind are the enwiki pages-meta-history file creation
(1 successful dump in ~3 years), and apparently very
Hi Aryeh,
Thanks for bringing this topic up. It looks like its been a pretty
productive conversation so far, so I hope I don't ruin it. ;-)
Here's where I think you and I are on common ground. We seem to
disagree about magnitude (e.g. more vs all or less vs none),
but I think we can agree on
On 04/09/10 03:39, Aryeh Gregor wrote:
On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 1:20 AM, Tim Starling tstarl...@wikimedia.org wrote:
Your recommendations seem insensitive and unrealistic. What works for
you does not necessarily work for everyone.
It works for many, many open-source projects.
I don't think
Hi,
I can say that despite being a nobody at Mozilla and having gotten
only one (rather trivial) patch accepted, I feel like I'm
taken more
seriously by most of their paid developers than by most of
ours.
I'm sorry to hear that, and I'd like to know (off list) which paid
Στις 03-09-2010, ημέρα Παρ, και ώρα 05:34 -0700, ο/η Conrad Irwin
έγραψε:
On 3 September 2010 00:51, Danese Cooper dcoo...@wikimedia.org wrote:
1. Eliminate single points of failure / bottlenecks
2. Reconfigure into teams designed to encourage faster (shorter
duration) and more accurate
Okay, so here's my take...
First of all I want to thank Aryeh for taking the time to write out the
original mail in the thread. You've obviously done quite a bit of
thinking. I realize there has been discontent and even concern with the
way things have been / are between Foundation tech
On 3 September 2010 00:51, Danese Cooper dcoo...@wikimedia.org wrote:
1. Eliminate single points of failure / bottlenecks
2. Reconfigure into teams designed to encourage faster (shorter
duration) and more accurate projects / deployments
3. Develop programs to encourage / grow volunteers into
On 03.09.2010, 4:40 Roan wrote:
* Shut down #wikimedia-dev (formerly #wikipedia_usability, kind of).
The explicit purpose of the channel is to allow development discussion
with less noise, but noise here means community involvement. In
community development, you do get a lot more discussion,
On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 8:40 PM, Roan Kattouw roan.katt...@gmail.com wrote:
I also think that we already have a fair number of tech employees
outside of San Francisco, and AFAIK we're definitely open to hiring
remote people for tech jobs unless in-person interaction is essential,
say for a CTO
On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 11:54 AM, Max Semenik maxsem.w...@gmail.com wrote:
On 03.09.2010, 4:40 Roan wrote:
* Shut down #wikimedia-dev (formerly #wikipedia_usability, kind of).
The explicit purpose of the channel is to allow development discussion
with less noise, but noise here means community
On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 8:40 PM, Roan Kattouw roan.katt...@gmail.com wrote:
* Shut down #wikimedia-dev (formerly #wikipedia_usability, kind of).
The explicit purpose of the channel is to allow development discussion
with less noise, but noise here means community involvement. In
community
Aryeh Gregor writes,
I'm not assuming that -- I've been idling in the secret channel for a
while now. (I keep almost saying its name, argh. Channels that aren't
access-restricted and rely on secret names are annoying.) Most of it
is just chitchat. But that's exactly something that the
Thanks you Aryeh for your excellent comment (Score: 5, Insightful).
I fully agree that excluding volunteer coders from decision making
processes is a dangerous path, which in the long run could cost WMF more
than the time spent on including the community in a collaborative and
open way.
As an
On 2010-09-02, Aryeh Gregor wrote:
Over the last couple of years, MediaWiki development has moved from
being almost entirely volunteer-based to having a large contingent of
paid developers. A lot of people have noted that this has led to a
lot of work being done without much community
On 9/3/10 4:55 PM, Robert Leverington wrote:
It's very dissapointing to see many of the suggestions discarded almost
immediatley by most of the staff members replying as unrealistic.
I can't speak for others, but I have to say that the idea of having paid
developers without a space for them
On 2010-09-03, Neil Kandalgaonkar wrote:
On 9/3/10 4:55 PM, Robert Leverington wrote:
It's very dissapointing to see many of the suggestions discarded almost
immediatley by most of the staff members replying as unrealistic.
I can't speak for others, but I have to say that the idea of
2010/9/4 Robert Leverington rob...@rhl.me.uk:
In the past all paid developers worked remotely (at least, not in the
same office as one another), and there still are paid developers who
work remotely. Additionally, all volunteers work remotely. Based on my
experience with MediaWiki I would
On 9/3/2010 11:55 PM, Roan Kattouw wrote:
2010/9/4 Robert Leverington rob...@rhl.me.uk:
In the past all paid developers worked remotely (at least, not in the
same office as one another), and there still are paid developers who
work remotely. Additionally, all volunteers work remotely. Based
Over the last couple of years, MediaWiki development has moved from
being almost entirely volunteer-based to having a large contingent of
paid developers. A lot of people have noted that this has led to a
lot of work being done without much community involvement. Just for a
basic statistic, in
On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 9:05 AM, Aryeh Gregor
simetrical+wikil...@gmail.com wrote:
... I scrolled; but agree with the bits I read...
I don't know how seriously these suggestions will be taken in practice
by the powers that be, but I hope I've made a detailed and cogent
enough case to make at
On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 7:05 PM, Aryeh Gregor
simetrical+wikil...@gmail.com wrote:
I don't know how seriously these suggestions will be taken in practice
by the powers that be, but I hope I've made a detailed and cogent
enough case to make at least some impact.
I hope so as well. You managed
2010/9/3 Aryeh Gregor simetrical+wikil...@gmail.com:
* Consider what to do about code review. This is pretty much the
hardest problem on this list, which is why I don't propose a specific
solution here, but there has to be a better solution than assume a
bunch of employees are trusted enough
On 2 September 2010 17:40, Roan Kattouw roan.katt...@gmail.com wrote:
2010/9/3 Aryeh Gregor simetrical+wikil...@gmail.com:
* Shut down the secret staff IRC channel. Development discussion can
take place in #mediawiki, ops in #wikimedia-tech, other stuff in
#wikimedia or whatever. If users
Aryeh Gregor wrote:
I don't know how seriously these suggestions will be taken in practice
by the powers that be, but I hope I've made a detailed and cogent
enough case to make at least some impact.
In large part, the problems and solutions are obvious (you pointed out most
of them, and this
2010/9/3 MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com:
In large part, the problems and solutions are obvious (you pointed out most
of them, and this is hardly the first time this has come up). The issue is
that those in power (those who sign the paychecks and employment contracts)
are deliberately choosing to
Roan Kattouw wrote:
2010/9/3 MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com:
In large part, the problems and solutions are obvious (you pointed out most
of them, and this is hardly the first time this has come up). The issue is
that those in power (those who sign the paychecks and employment contracts)
are
All of us at WMF care and follow discussions like this, especially
clearly laid out and well thought-out analysis like Aryeh's original
post. We don't always agree. :-) I know Danese is planning to weigh
in, so I won't write too much at this time, but will point to this
post from a couple of
Erik Moeller wrote:
All of us at WMF care and follow discussions like this, especially
clearly laid out and well thought-out analysis like Aryeh's original
post. We don't always agree. :-) I know Danese is planning to weigh
in, so I won't write too much at this time, but will point to this
On 9/2/2010 9:04 PM, Roan Kattouw wrote:
Oh really? So I guess we have dozens of people capable of and
available for reviewing and deploying code? We don't. As you have said
yourself and Aryeh has pointed out, review and deployment has been a
problem for a long time, and if one order could
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
On 37-01--10 03:59 PM, Alex wrote:
The foundation now has probably 3 times as many staff
members as then, but from the community's POV seems to get less done.
Seems true to me, except in the case of the Vector project where the red
carpet gets laid
On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 3:05 AM, Aryeh Gregor
simetrical+wikil...@gmail.com wrote:
* Consider what to do about code review. This is pretty much the
hardest problem on this list, which is why I don't propose a specific
solution here, but there has to be a better solution than assume a
bunch of
2010/9/3 Victor Vasiliev vasi...@gmail.com:
Or at least make usabil...@wikimedia.org a publicly logged mailing
list. I see no reason why it should not be (you may create a separate
internal mailing list).
It's not really being used anymore because the Stanton grant is over
now, and the people
The quotes below are illustrative excerpts, my replies are to the
whole post.
On 03/09/10 09:05, Aryeh Gregor wrote:
That's what leads to things like
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:Code/MediaWiki/67299. Some
people said that maybe that could have been phrased better, or
something.
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