Re: [Wikitech-l] Recommending Firefox to users using legacy browsers?

2017-09-08 Thread Petr Bena 
Are we running same firefox? I have same experience like you, but with
Chrome. Firefox is best performing and rock solid compared to anything else
to me and I run it on all my computers including virtual boxes, with ~100
tabs I achieved months of uptime with no crash. Can't say this about chrome
or others.

On Tue, 5 Sep 2017 at 02:08, Risker  wrote:

> Gonna be honest...after using Firefox almost exclusively for the last 10
> years whenever I had a choice, I'm ready to give up on it. I don't expect
> all the bells and whistles (and privacy compromises) of the big commercial
> browsers, but Firefox has decided to take a path that is actively awful.
> It's not just awful on Wikipedia (where I know logged-in users with lots of
> preferences and scripts are always going to be slow), it is awful on every
> website I go to, and it crashes on a multiple-times-a-day basis.  It does
> this on all three of my computers.  I've been trying to stay loyal and look
> at the bigger "free knowledge" bit...but I have had six crashes today and
> I'm done.  I hear this a lot from people I know outside of Wikimedia, and
> I've been told its unreliability is why several companies have decided
> against adding it (or have removed it) as an acceptable alternate browser.
>
> So no, I do not think it would be a good idea for anyone, let alone the
> Wikimedia Foundation, to advocate on behalf of this software.
>
> Risker/Anne
>
> On 3 September 2017 at 03:22, Stas Malyshev 
> wrote:
>
> > Hi!
> >
> > > After Firefox and Chromium, there's a bunch of open source web browsers
> > > listed on [2], but a brief spot check showed many as being Linux only
> > > (or outdated Mac builds). One that looked promising was Brave[3],
> though
> > > it's a relatively new browser and I would need to do more research
> > > regarding #3.
> >
> > I've been using Brave for a couple of months occasionally, and it seems
> > to work pretty well. It has (some) adblocking in default config, and
> > some other privacy-enhancing settings, which are probably not very
> > important for Wikimedia sites but may either break some other sites or
> > make them bearable :)
> > It's pretty young, so I don't think we can say much about security
> > record yet - IIRC it's based on Chromium, and it's updated pretty
> > frequently, and it's easy to use (though the UI might be a bit more
> > spartan then others for now, and not many extensions available - but for
> > ex-IE users it may not be an issue).
> >
> > --
> > Stas Malyshev
> > smalys...@wikimedia.org
> >
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> >
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Recommending Firefox to users using legacy browsers?

2017-09-07 Thread Pere Orga 
On Tue, Sep 5, 2017 at 11:27 AM, Joaquin Oltra Hernandez
 wrote:
> I think that people using old browsers on desktop, are most surely doing it
> because they have to (company policy on locked down computers) and showing
> them a banner or similar is only going to detract from their experience
> with information they don't neither want nor need.

They may not be allowed to upgrade, but they must know they *should*
upgrade, if they are using an insecure browser.

>
> In mobile the situation is a lot different, grade C doesn't mean old crappy
> browser, but it means HTML only browser, and there are millions of people
> opting in to those experiences to get a faster and more data constrained
> experience, because of the cost of mobile data on their countries, or the
> speeds of the network.
> Those people are using Opera mini or UC browser at will, because it is
> actually a better experience for them, and showing them a banner about
> changing to a different browser when their browser is neither old, nor
> outdated, is only going to be a negative experience for them on the sites.
>
> I personally don't think it is worth doing generally for all grade C. Maybe
> it is worth identifying specific UA or UA ranges of browsers that are
> specially problematic and that we know are usually used by choice and not
> forced upon the user, and showing a message to those only. That way we
> could avoid degrading the experience to users that are using a grade C by
> choice, like the Opera mini ones.
>

Yes, these cases are different. From the original message I understood
that this was to target old browsers only, but perhaps multiple
banners could be displayed depending whether the user is browsing with
an insecure browser or with one that has reduced functionality.

> My 2 cents.
>
> On Tue, Sep 5, 2017 at 7:40 AM Gergo Tisza  wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 6:13 PM, Bryan Davis  wrote:
>>
>> > In my personal past experience,
>> > Firefox crashes were almost always correlated with buggy user
>> > installed, community developed extensions.
>> >
>>
>> Which are going to be axed in the next release and replaced with a
>> Chrome-like limited-but-safe API for extensions, and that has everyone up
>> in arms. It's hard to please users :)
>>
>> In any case I would care more about linking to a user-friendly and
>> well-maintained landing page (e.g. does it offer useful choices if you
>> visit it from a mobile device?) than the specific selection of browsers
>> offered - given the relatively small ratio of grade C visits, we are
>> unlikely to alter the browser landscape much either way. And I doubt we
>> want to deal with maintaining such a page ourselves.
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-- 
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Recommending Firefox to users using legacy browsers?

2017-09-06 Thread Chad 
On Wed, Sep 6, 2017 at 2:31 AM Antoine Musso  wrote:

> On 05/09/2017 17:47, Chad wrote:
> > On Tue, Sep 5, 2017 at 2:28 AM Joaquin Oltra Hernandez <
> > jhernan...@wikimedia.org> wrote:
> >
> >> I think that people using old browsers on desktop, are most surely
> doing it
> >> because they have to (company policy on locked down computers) and
> showing
> >> them a banner or similar is only going to detract from their experience
> >> with information they don't neither want nor need.
> >>
> >>
> > To be honest, bugging these users means hopefully they'll bug their IT
> > managers to finally get their fucking asses in the 2010s and stop being
> > irresponsible. I won't lose any sleep over annoying them...
>
> That is not how it works in a big company. To deploy a new browser you
> gotta:
> * update the base images used to deploy the workstations
> * revalidate all the applications
> * revalidate all the web apps with that new browser (cough ActiveX,
> Java, Flash, obsolete js etc)
> * roll it incrementally to the ten or hundred of thousands of workstation
>
> That is a 12-18 months project and you don't do it "just" to upgrade a
> browser that is however working fine for your business applications.
>
> In the end the IT managers cant do it as easily as they would want due
> to time/cost.  I got your point for sure, and I am pretty sure web
> compatibility has forced them to update their browser already, they are
> just lagging by a few years.
>
>
I'm well aware of how corporate IT works. A 12-18 month projectthat
should've been started in May 2010 when Microsoft announced the end of XP
support. That's like 80+ months and counting. I'm sorry, but if you're the
IT executive who thinks that is acceptable then you should resign in
absolute shame and leave the field IT.

I never said it was cheap, or easy, but that it has to be done. Maybe if we
annoy the CEO of a company a directive will magically come down from on
high ;-)


>
> I am pretty sure the popup would be annoying to a lot of users.
> Hopefully when most websites no more work in their browser, they would
> eventually switch to a new computer. But that can take a decade+ to
> achieve :-(
>
>
The internet is quickly disappearing from these browsers. Warning them
beforehand is better than just one day going dark with no explanation.


> If we crafted nice tutorials as to how to install and use the few
> browsers we offer, that might help.  Chrome and Firefox most probably
> already have such tutorials for all the OSes they support.
>
>
Link to their sites. They typically have nice big INSTALL ME buttons on
their homepages :)

-Chad
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Recommending Firefox to users using legacy browsers?

2017-09-06 Thread Antoine Musso 

On 05/09/2017 17:47, Chad wrote:

On Tue, Sep 5, 2017 at 2:28 AM Joaquin Oltra Hernandez <
jhernan...@wikimedia.org> wrote:


I think that people using old browsers on desktop, are most surely doing it
because they have to (company policy on locked down computers) and showing
them a banner or similar is only going to detract from their experience
with information they don't neither want nor need.



To be honest, bugging these users means hopefully they'll bug their IT
managers to finally get their fucking asses in the 2010s and stop being
irresponsible. I won't lose any sleep over annoying them...


That is not how it works in a big company. To deploy a new browser you 
gotta:

* update the base images used to deploy the workstations
* revalidate all the applications
* revalidate all the web apps with that new browser (cough ActiveX, 
Java, Flash, obsolete js etc)

* roll it incrementally to the ten or hundred of thousands of workstation

That is a 12-18 months project and you don't do it "just" to upgrade a 
browser that is however working fine for your business applications.


In the end the IT managers cant do it as easily as they would want due 
to time/cost.  I got your point for sure, and I am pretty sure web 
compatibility has forced them to update their browser already, they are 
just lagging by a few years.



However, there's two other groups who would be annoyed/confused by such
banners:

* Parents/grandparents who got their Windows XP laptop 12 years ago and
don't know how to upgrade--nor do they care, as long as they can check
their e-mail and print pictures :)
* People in lower-income locales for whom upgrading is a cost-prohibitive
endeavor

-Chad


I am pretty sure the popup would be annoying to a lot of users. 
Hopefully when most websites no more work in their browser, they would 
eventually switch to a new computer. But that can take a decade+ to 
achieve :-(


If we crafted nice tutorials as to how to install and use the few 
browsers we offer, that might help.  Chrome and Firefox most probably 
already have such tutorials for all the OSes they support.


--
Antoine "hashar" Musso


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Re: [Wikitech-l] Recommending Firefox to users using legacy browsers?

2017-09-05 Thread Melody Kramer 
Just to throw in some other datasets to look at:

The US .gov publishes all browser/traffic information in csv/json [1]. The
gov.uk publishes similar data [2]. I realize this is centered mainly on
people who live in those countries, but it may be helpful to look at other
large traffic-getting domains and see similarities and differences to the
browser usage on Wikipedia [3].



[1] https://analytics.usa.gov/data/, Code:
https://github.com/18F/analytics.usa.gov
[2] https://data.gov.uk/data/site-usage#browsers_names
[3]
https://analytics.wikimedia.org/dashboards/browsers/#desktop-site-by-browser/browser-family-and-major-tabular-view


On Tue, Sep 5, 2017 at 11:47 AM, Chad  wrote:

> On Tue, Sep 5, 2017 at 2:28 AM Joaquin Oltra Hernandez <
> jhernan...@wikimedia.org> wrote:
>
> > I think that people using old browsers on desktop, are most surely doing
> it
> > because they have to (company policy on locked down computers) and
> showing
> > them a banner or similar is only going to detract from their experience
> > with information they don't neither want nor need.
> >
> >
> To be honest, bugging these users means hopefully they'll bug their IT
> managers to finally get their fucking asses in the 2010s and stop being
> irresponsible. I won't lose any sleep over annoying them...
>
> However, there's two other groups who would be annoyed/confused by such
> banners:
>
> * Parents/grandparents who got their Windows XP laptop 12 years ago and
> don't know how to upgrade--nor do they care, as long as they can check
> their e-mail and print pictures :)
> * People in lower-income locales for whom upgrading is a cost-prohibitive
> endeavor
>
> -Chad
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-- 
Melody Kramer 
Senior Audience Development Manager
Read a random featured article from Wikipedia!


mkra...@wikimedia.org
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Recommending Firefox to users using legacy browsers?

2017-09-05 Thread Chad 
On Tue, Sep 5, 2017 at 2:28 AM Joaquin Oltra Hernandez <
jhernan...@wikimedia.org> wrote:

> I think that people using old browsers on desktop, are most surely doing it
> because they have to (company policy on locked down computers) and showing
> them a banner or similar is only going to detract from their experience
> with information they don't neither want nor need.
>
>
To be honest, bugging these users means hopefully they'll bug their IT
managers to finally get their fucking asses in the 2010s and stop being
irresponsible. I won't lose any sleep over annoying them...

However, there's two other groups who would be annoyed/confused by such
banners:

* Parents/grandparents who got their Windows XP laptop 12 years ago and
don't know how to upgrade--nor do they care, as long as they can check
their e-mail and print pictures :)
* People in lower-income locales for whom upgrading is a cost-prohibitive
endeavor

-Chad
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Recommending Firefox to users using legacy browsers?

2017-09-05 Thread Joaquin Oltra Hernandez 
I think that people using old browsers on desktop, are most surely doing it
because they have to (company policy on locked down computers) and showing
them a banner or similar is only going to detract from their experience
with information they don't neither want nor need.

In mobile the situation is a lot different, grade C doesn't mean old crappy
browser, but it means HTML only browser, and there are millions of people
opting in to those experiences to get a faster and more data constrained
experience, because of the cost of mobile data on their countries, or the
speeds of the network.
Those people are using Opera mini or UC browser at will, because it is
actually a better experience for them, and showing them a banner about
changing to a different browser when their browser is neither old, nor
outdated, is only going to be a negative experience for them on the sites.

I personally don't think it is worth doing generally for all grade C. Maybe
it is worth identifying specific UA or UA ranges of browsers that are
specially problematic and that we know are usually used by choice and not
forced upon the user, and showing a message to those only. That way we
could avoid degrading the experience to users that are using a grade C by
choice, like the Opera mini ones.

My 2 cents.

On Tue, Sep 5, 2017 at 7:40 AM Gergo Tisza  wrote:

> On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 6:13 PM, Bryan Davis  wrote:
>
> > In my personal past experience,
> > Firefox crashes were almost always correlated with buggy user
> > installed, community developed extensions.
> >
>
> Which are going to be axed in the next release and replaced with a
> Chrome-like limited-but-safe API for extensions, and that has everyone up
> in arms. It's hard to please users :)
>
> In any case I would care more about linking to a user-friendly and
> well-maintained landing page (e.g. does it offer useful choices if you
> visit it from a mobile device?) than the specific selection of browsers
> offered - given the relatively small ratio of grade C visits, we are
> unlikely to alter the browser landscape much either way. And I doubt we
> want to deal with maintaining such a page ourselves.
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Recommending Firefox to users using legacy browsers?

2017-09-04 Thread Gergo Tisza 
On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 6:13 PM, Bryan Davis  wrote:

> In my personal past experience,
> Firefox crashes were almost always correlated with buggy user
> installed, community developed extensions.
>

Which are going to be axed in the next release and replaced with a
Chrome-like limited-but-safe API for extensions, and that has everyone up
in arms. It's hard to please users :)

In any case I would care more about linking to a user-friendly and
well-maintained landing page (e.g. does it offer useful choices if you
visit it from a mobile device?) than the specific selection of browsers
offered - given the relatively small ratio of grade C visits, we are
unlikely to alter the browser landscape much either way. And I doubt we
want to deal with maintaining such a page ourselves.
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Recommending Firefox to users using legacy browsers?

2017-09-04 Thread Bináris 
2017-09-05 2:08 GMT+02:00 Risker :

> Firefox has decided to take a path that is actively awful.
>
Which is?
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Recommending Firefox to users using legacy browsers?

2017-09-04 Thread Bryan Davis 
On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 6:08 PM, Risker  wrote:
> Gonna be honest...after using Firefox almost exclusively for the last 10
> years whenever I had a choice, I'm ready to give up on it. I don't expect
> all the bells and whistles (and privacy compromises) of the big commercial
> browsers, but Firefox has decided to take a path that is actively awful.
> It's not just awful on Wikipedia (where I know logged-in users with lots of
> preferences and scripts are always going to be slow), it is awful on every
> website I go to, and it crashes on a multiple-times-a-day basis.  It does
> this on all three of my computers.  I've been trying to stay loyal and look
> at the bigger "free knowledge" bit...but I have had six crashes today and
> I'm done.  I hear this a lot from people I know outside of Wikimedia, and
> I've been told its unreliability is why several companies have decided
> against adding it (or have removed it) as an acceptable alternate browser.
>
> So no, I do not think it would be a good idea for anyone, let alone the
> Wikimedia Foundation, to advocate on behalf of this software.

As long as we are going on anecdotal evidence, I run Firefox ESR
52.3.0 on an OSX laptop all day every day and can not remember the
last crash I had. I do shutdown the browser every evening which may or
may not avoid serious memory leaks. In my personal past experience,
Firefox crashes were almost always correlated with buggy user
installed, community developed extensions.

Bryan
-- 
Bryan Davis  Wikimedia Foundation
[[m:User:BDavis_(WMF)]] Manager, Cloud Services  Boise, ID USA
irc: bd808v:415.839.6885 x6855

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Recommending Firefox to users using legacy browsers?

2017-09-04 Thread Risker 
Gonna be honest...after using Firefox almost exclusively for the last 10
years whenever I had a choice, I'm ready to give up on it. I don't expect
all the bells and whistles (and privacy compromises) of the big commercial
browsers, but Firefox has decided to take a path that is actively awful.
It's not just awful on Wikipedia (where I know logged-in users with lots of
preferences and scripts are always going to be slow), it is awful on every
website I go to, and it crashes on a multiple-times-a-day basis.  It does
this on all three of my computers.  I've been trying to stay loyal and look
at the bigger "free knowledge" bit...but I have had six crashes today and
I'm done.  I hear this a lot from people I know outside of Wikimedia, and
I've been told its unreliability is why several companies have decided
against adding it (or have removed it) as an acceptable alternate browser.

So no, I do not think it would be a good idea for anyone, let alone the
Wikimedia Foundation, to advocate on behalf of this software.

Risker/Anne

On 3 September 2017 at 03:22, Stas Malyshev  wrote:

> Hi!
>
> > After Firefox and Chromium, there's a bunch of open source web browsers
> > listed on [2], but a brief spot check showed many as being Linux only
> > (or outdated Mac builds). One that looked promising was Brave[3], though
> > it's a relatively new browser and I would need to do more research
> > regarding #3.
>
> I've been using Brave for a couple of months occasionally, and it seems
> to work pretty well. It has (some) adblocking in default config, and
> some other privacy-enhancing settings, which are probably not very
> important for Wikimedia sites but may either break some other sites or
> make them bearable :)
> It's pretty young, so I don't think we can say much about security
> record yet - IIRC it's based on Chromium, and it's updated pretty
> frequently, and it's easy to use (though the UI might be a bit more
> spartan then others for now, and not many extensions available - but for
> ex-IE users it may not be an issue).
>
> --
> Stas Malyshev
> smalys...@wikimedia.org
>
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Recommending Firefox to users using legacy browsers?

2017-09-03 Thread Stas Malyshev 
Hi!

> After Firefox and Chromium, there's a bunch of open source web browsers
> listed on [2], but a brief spot check showed many as being Linux only
> (or outdated Mac builds). One that looked promising was Brave[3], though
> it's a relatively new browser and I would need to do more research
> regarding #3.

I've been using Brave for a couple of months occasionally, and it seems
to work pretty well. It has (some) adblocking in default config, and
some other privacy-enhancing settings, which are probably not very
important for Wikimedia sites but may either break some other sites or
make them bearable :)
It's pretty young, so I don't think we can say much about security
record yet - IIRC it's based on Chromium, and it's updated pretty
frequently, and it's easy to use (though the UI might be a bit more
spartan then others for now, and not many extensions available - but for
ex-IE users it may not be an issue).

-- 
Stas Malyshev
smalys...@wikimedia.org

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Recommending Firefox to users using legacy browsers?

2017-09-02 Thread Legoktm 
Hi,

On 09/01/2017 07:06 PM, Chad wrote:
> (3) I would *really* like to have 2--maybe 3--browsers to list. There's
> zero reason to make users think there's only one option when there's a
> couple of valid ones.

I think Neil hit my goals on the head, and ideally there would be
multiple browsers we could recommend. Skipping the "support a like
minded organization" part for a bit, here's the criterion I would want
to see for a web browser we recommend:

1. Free software/open source
2. Privacy friendly
3. Good security track record and active security team
4. Easy for non-technical users to use

Firefox and Chromium both clear 1-3 pretty easily.

For #4 I think Firefox also meets it - I know people have concerns with
Firefox dropping legacy XUL addons or other changes to defaults, but I
don't think people coming from IE 8 would really care or even notice.

According to the "Download Chromium" page[1], their builds are based on
the current master, and don't auto update. So I don't think that would
meet the criteria for #4 since users would need to download updates
manually. And Google Chrome, which does have auto updating, doesn't meet
#1 or #2.

After Firefox and Chromium, there's a bunch of open source web browsers
listed on [2], but a brief spot check showed many as being Linux only
(or outdated Mac builds). One that looked promising was Brave[3], though
it's a relatively new browser and I would need to do more research
regarding #3.

Ultimately I think Firefox is the best and probably only choice for us
to recommend to users. Given that Mozilla is an organization that is
aligned with us ideologically, I feel comfortable recommending their
product on Wikimedia sites, and trust they're not suddenly going to add
privacy invasive features. That said, if there's another browser that
also meets the criterion listed above, I would be totally open to
recommending it well.


[1] https://www.chromium.org/getting-involved/download-chromium
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_web_browsers
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brave_(web_browser)

-- Legoktm

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Recommending Firefox to users using legacy browsers?

2017-09-01 Thread Kaartic Sivaraam 

On Sat, 02 Sep 2017 02:06:09 +, Chad  wrote,

(3) I would*really*  like to have 2--maybe 3--browsers to list. There's
zero reason to make users think there's only one option when there's a
couple of valid ones.


I would love that too. Imagine that we do take the step and start promoting 
Firefox
"alone" to legacy users. I "suspect" the first reaction of a user who doesn't
take the time to realise we're promoting an open-source movement while trying to
help them get rid of their legacy browser to be,

   "I thought Wikipedia doesn't show ads/promotions. Seems they have
   changed their motive of "Not showing ads for revenue"! May be they'll
   be showing more ads in the future. ARRRGGHHH!"

That might be a little over boasted, though! In order to avoid such reactions 
how about
recommending Firefox in the pop-up/central notice and linking to a list of 
other good
browsers to show we aren't promoting /advertising browsers. For the list of 
other browsers
we could link to https://browsehappy.com

To address this,

On Fri Sep 1 13:55:19 UTC 2017, Federico Leva (Nemo)  wrote,

-1 to linking any resource which is not itself free software,
translatable with free software and managed by a privacy-compliant org.


I guess browsehappy is at least open source.

https://github.com/WordPress/browsehappy


---
Kaartic


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Re: [Wikitech-l] Recommending Firefox to users using legacy browsers?

2017-09-01 Thread Chad 
On Fri, Sep 1, 2017 at 3:57 PM Neil Patel Quinn 
wrote:

> I understand the desire to avoid playing favorites by directing users to a
> list of browsers rather than a single one, but I think that cuts against
> *both
> *the goals of doing this in the first place.
>
> The first goal is to nudge users to upgrade from an insecure, less-capable
> browser to a modern one. But if we present them a list of 10 alternatives
> (or even 2), they're far more likely to get stuck in choice paralysis [1]
> and far less likely to actually do what we want and upgrade.
>
>
Indeed. A big list of "HEY PICK ONE OF THESE" means we'll end up fracturing
our users over a bunch of browsers that most of us would never even use
ourselves. I merely suggested Chromium alongside Firefox because it's also
free/open, even if driven by the BIG EVIL GOOGLE.


> The second goal is to strengthen non-profit, open-web-focused browser
> makers by increasing their market share. As I see it, the best way to do
> this is to nudge all our users towards a single, high-quality browser which
> already has significant market share, rather than distributing them across
> many different browsers with tiny market shares.
>
>
Indeed, like I said above. However high quality is subjective...my
experiences with Firefox have been horrible the last several years, which
is why I stick to Chromium/Chrome mostly. That's why I'd suggest like
basically 2-3 options tops so we don't play favorites :)


> I'd suggest that the best areas for debate are (1) whether these are good
> goals, (2) whether their benefits justify interrupting users' browsing, and
> (3) which single browser would be the best destination
>
> Obviously, my answers are (1) yes, (2) yes, and (3) Firefox, but some will
> disagree :)
>
>
(1) Eh, maybe. I care mostly because these older platforms are horribly
insecure and if we can get people on a half-decent browser on those
platforms then that's a win (cf: T118181 and all its various linked tasks).
Javascript is way down the list of why I care here :)

(2) We already interrupt some of these users anyway per the TLS migration
stuff I mentioned in (1) above. I think the rollout there--start with small
percentages and slowly ramp up prior to there being a deadline is a good
route to go.

(3) I would *really* like to have 2--maybe 3--browsers to list. There's
zero reason to make users think there's only one option when there's a
couple of valid ones.

-Chad
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Recommending Firefox to users using legacy browsers?

2017-09-01 Thread zppix e 
I personally use firefox on desktop and safari on my mobile (im lazy to install 
an web browser on mobile lol) but I don't think we should make users feel like 
we're pushing them towards a certain browser because someone(s) agree the 
browser is recommended. While yes people may see the list and get overwhelmed 
and not update but at the same time not showing them more than one option can 
cause the same thing because they feel we support one thing over another. All 
in all I have no issue recommending firefox i just have an issue not giving the 
user a feeling of choice of modern browsers.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 1, 2017, at 5:56 PM, Neil Patel Quinn  wrote:
> 
> I understand the desire to avoid playing favorites by directing users to a
> list of browsers rather than a single one, but I think that cuts against *both
> *the goals of doing this in the first place.
> 
> The first goal is to nudge users to upgrade from an insecure, less-capable
> browser to a modern one. But if we present them a list of 10 alternatives
> (or even 2), they're far more likely to get stuck in choice paralysis [1]
> and far less likely to actually do what we want and upgrade.
> 
> The second goal is to strengthen non-profit, open-web-focused browser
> makers by increasing their market share. As I see it, the best way to do
> this is to nudge all our users towards a single, high-quality browser which
> already has significant market share, rather than distributing them across
> many different browsers with tiny market shares.
> 
> I'd suggest that the best areas for debate are (1) whether these are good
> goals, (2) whether their benefits justify interrupting users' browsing, and
> (3) which single browser would be the best destination
> 
> Obviously, my answers are (1) yes, (2) yes, and (3) Firefox, but some will
> disagree :)
> 
> [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analysis_paralysis
> 
>> On 1 September 2017 at 12:15, zppix e  wrote:
>> 
>> Why dont we link to an list of web browsers compatible with wmf projects
>> and let the user decide
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Sep 1, 2017, at 12:09 PM, Chad  wrote:
>>> 
>>> On Fri, Sep 1, 2017 at 6:55 AM Federico Leva (Nemo) 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
 At least until a proper resource exists, just directing people to the
 latest Firefox is probably the most reasonable option (we certainly
 can't support the incumbent).
 
 
>>> Is linking to Firefox and Chromium an option?
>>> 
>>> -Chad
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>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>> 
>> ___
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> 
> 
> 
> -- 
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Recommending Firefox to users using legacy browsers?

2017-09-01 Thread Neil Patel Quinn 
I understand the desire to avoid playing favorites by directing users to a
list of browsers rather than a single one, but I think that cuts against *both
*the goals of doing this in the first place.

The first goal is to nudge users to upgrade from an insecure, less-capable
browser to a modern one. But if we present them a list of 10 alternatives
(or even 2), they're far more likely to get stuck in choice paralysis [1]
and far less likely to actually do what we want and upgrade.

The second goal is to strengthen non-profit, open-web-focused browser
makers by increasing their market share. As I see it, the best way to do
this is to nudge all our users towards a single, high-quality browser which
already has significant market share, rather than distributing them across
many different browsers with tiny market shares.

I'd suggest that the best areas for debate are (1) whether these are good
goals, (2) whether their benefits justify interrupting users' browsing, and
(3) which single browser would be the best destination

Obviously, my answers are (1) yes, (2) yes, and (3) Firefox, but some will
disagree :)

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analysis_paralysis

On 1 September 2017 at 12:15, zppix e  wrote:

> Why dont we link to an list of web browsers compatible with wmf projects
> and let the user decide
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Sep 1, 2017, at 12:09 PM, Chad  wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, Sep 1, 2017 at 6:55 AM Federico Leva (Nemo) 
> > wrote:
> >
> >> At least until a proper resource exists, just directing people to the
> >> latest Firefox is probably the most reasonable option (we certainly
> >> can't support the incumbent).
> >>
> >>
> > Is linking to Firefox and Chromium an option?
> >
> > -Chad
> > ___
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> > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Recommending Firefox to users using legacy browsers?

2017-09-01 Thread zppix e 
Why dont we link to an list of web browsers compatible with wmf projects and 
let the user decide

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 1, 2017, at 12:09 PM, Chad  wrote:
> 
> On Fri, Sep 1, 2017 at 6:55 AM Federico Leva (Nemo) 
> wrote:
> 
>> At least until a proper resource exists, just directing people to the
>> latest Firefox is probably the most reasonable option (we certainly
>> can't support the incumbent).
>> 
>> 
> Is linking to Firefox and Chromium an option?
> 
> -Chad
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Recommending Firefox to users using legacy browsers?

2017-09-01 Thread Chad 
On Fri, Sep 1, 2017 at 6:55 AM Federico Leva (Nemo) 
wrote:

> At least until a proper resource exists, just directing people to the
> latest Firefox is probably the most reasonable option (we certainly
> can't support the incumbent).
>
>
Is linking to Firefox and Chromium an option?

-Chad
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Recommending Firefox to users using legacy browsers?

2017-09-01 Thread Federico Leva (Nemo) 
-1 to linking any resource which is not itself free software, 
translatable with free software and managed by a privacy-compliant org.


Positive example of what I mean: https://pdfreaders.org/ .

At least until a proper resource exists, just directing people to the 
latest Firefox is probably the most reasonable option (we certainly 
can't support the incumbent).


Nemo

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Recommending Firefox to users using legacy browsers?

2017-09-01 Thread Dan Garry 
On 1 September 2017 at 01:58, Gergo Tisza  wrote:
>
> We could send them to something like https://whatbrowser.org/ or
> https://browsehappy.com/


whatbrowser.org is definitely a nice experience, but it does require JS to
work; it fails to load both your current browser and suggestions for others
without JS. A lot of older browsers do have Javascript support, so that
might not be a problem, but perhaps it could be for some browsers.

Speaking of neutrality, it's important to note that whatbrowser.org is
owned and run by Google. I don't think that's a problem, since the site is
fairly neutral in its assessment and recommendations.

Dan

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Recommending Firefox to users using legacy browsers?

2017-09-01 Thread Katie Chan 

On 01/09/2017 01:58, Gergo Tisza wrote:

On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 1:37 PM, bawolff  wrote:


I'm concerned this would be seen as an inapropriate bias.



We could send them to something like https://whatbrowser.org/ or
https://browsehappy.com/
Motivating users to update their outdated browsers would definitely be a
good idea.


+1

Tell people to update very old browser, sure. Advertise a specific one, 
no no.


KTC


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Re: [Wikitech-l] Recommending Firefox to users using legacy browsers?

2017-08-31 Thread Comet styles 
The recent update of Firefox has made it worse, it basically kills
most of the extensions, deletes your browser bookmark cache and make
nearly all legacy addons useless, so yeah no, unless Firefox stop
making things worse, they should not be the alternative, most would
rather stick with Google Chrome...It has become a danger to even try
to update your browser cause something else breaks after every
update..

On 9/1/17, Legoktm  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On 08/31/2017 02:20 PM, Fæ wrote:
>> +1 on appearing to be a slippery slope and benefiting from wider,
>> political, discussion.
>
> Just to clarify, I fully plan on turning this into a wider discussion on
> Meta or alternative venue if/when pursuing this further. I was just
> trying to use wikitech-l as a place to gauge initial reactions from.
>
> Where do you think the slippery slope would lead us to? I don't think
> we're ever going to tell our users to start using GNU/Linux or something.
>
>> I've promoted Wikimedia and projects as being deliberately agnostic.
>
> I think we aim for this, but this isn't the actual case when it comes to
> browser support. For some time Chromium users had better load
> performance than Firefox users due to how localStorage was used, and in
> another case Opera 12 users couldn't access some pages with apostrophes
> in them.
>
> In this case, I'm deliberately proposing that we do take a side and
> align ourselves with Mozilla/Firefox. The main takeaway I got from the
> Wikimania session I mentioned earlier was that all of us free software
> and open content projects need to work together and support each other.
>
> We've already seen the open web lose when Mozilla gave into EME, simply
> because it didn't have enough market share to actually make a
> difference[1]. I'm afraid of the future where we no longer have an ally
> who can defend and push the shared Wikimedian ideals in the web browser
> space.
>
>> Strategically, locking Wikimedia into fixed relationships with other
>> organizations with their own drives and timelines, is going to
>> increase risks downstream.
>
> I do agree this adds risks to us, like in terms of public image if
> something bad happens regarding Firefox. But I don't think it should be
> a locked/fixed relationship, it should be something that we can say "no
> this isn't working" and turn off whenever we need to.
>
> [1]
> https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2014/05/14/drm-and-the-challenge-of-serving-users/
>
> -- Legoktm
>
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Recommending Firefox to users using legacy browsers?

2017-08-31 Thread Legoktm 
Hi,

On 08/31/2017 02:20 PM, Fæ wrote:
> +1 on appearing to be a slippery slope and benefiting from wider,
> political, discussion.

Just to clarify, I fully plan on turning this into a wider discussion on
Meta or alternative venue if/when pursuing this further. I was just
trying to use wikitech-l as a place to gauge initial reactions from.

Where do you think the slippery slope would lead us to? I don't think
we're ever going to tell our users to start using GNU/Linux or something.

> I've promoted Wikimedia and projects as being deliberately agnostic.

I think we aim for this, but this isn't the actual case when it comes to
browser support. For some time Chromium users had better load
performance than Firefox users due to how localStorage was used, and in
another case Opera 12 users couldn't access some pages with apostrophes
in them.

In this case, I'm deliberately proposing that we do take a side and
align ourselves with Mozilla/Firefox. The main takeaway I got from the
Wikimania session I mentioned earlier was that all of us free software
and open content projects need to work together and support each other.

We've already seen the open web lose when Mozilla gave into EME, simply
because it didn't have enough market share to actually make a
difference[1]. I'm afraid of the future where we no longer have an ally
who can defend and push the shared Wikimedian ideals in the web browser
space.

> Strategically, locking Wikimedia into fixed relationships with other
> organizations with their own drives and timelines, is going to
> increase risks downstream.

I do agree this adds risks to us, like in terms of public image if
something bad happens regarding Firefox. But I don't think it should be
a locked/fixed relationship, it should be something that we can say "no
this isn't working" and turn off whenever we need to.

[1]
https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2014/05/14/drm-and-the-challenge-of-serving-users/

-- Legoktm

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Recommending Firefox to users using legacy browsers?

2017-08-31 Thread Gergo Tisza 
On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 1:37 PM, bawolff  wrote:

> I'm concerned this would be seen as an inapropriate bias.
>

We could send them to something like https://whatbrowser.org/ or
https://browsehappy.com/
Motivating users to update their outdated browsers would definitely be a
good idea. It has the usual problem of notifications though: prompting the
user repeatedly with the same message gets annoying quickly, and we cannot
easily rely on the browser to remember whether it has already seen the
message in the past as the browser could have cookies disabled etc.
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Recommending Firefox to users using legacy browsers?

2017-08-31 Thread Legoktm 
Hi,

On 08/31/2017 01:51 PM, Max Semenik wrote:
> +1 to that. Additionally, the proposed method wouldn't even work because we
> blacklist crappy browsers from receiving JS.

This isn't strictly true, we give legacy browsers some JS to make new
HTML5 elements work using html5shiv[1]. And I think the specific
implementation can be fleshed out a little later, that was just a
concept/idea. :)

[1] https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/369991/

-- Legoktm

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Recommending Firefox to users using legacy browsers?

2017-08-31 Thread David Gerard 
There's a pile of minor open source browsers too ... maybe redirect to a
page with a list.


- d.

On 31 August 2017 at 22:48, Neil Patel Quinn  wrote:

> Personally (because I have no expertise in thing kind of thing in my WMF
> capacity), I'd very much support this. It *would *be showing a bias towards
> Mozilla and Firefox, but I think it's entirely reasonable for us to be
> biased towards non-profit, open technology. A web with Firefox as a strong
> player is considerably more hospitable to us than one without.
>
> I agree this should be discussed in a wider forum like on Meta, but I look
> forward to supporting it there too :)
>
> On 31 August 2017 at 14:20, Fæ  wrote:
>
> > On 31 August 2017 at 21:37, bawolff  wrote:
> > > On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 8:14 PM, Legoktm 
> > wrote:
> > >> Hello,
> > >>
> > >> This was something that came up during "The Big Open" at Wikimania,
> when
> > >> Katherine Maher talked with Ryan Merkley (CEO of Creative Commons) and
> > >> Mark Surman (ED of Mozilla Foundation). One of the themes mentioned
> was
> > >> that our projects need to work together and support each other.
> > >>
> > >> In that vein, I'm interested in what people think about promoting
> > >> Firefox to users who are using legacy browsers that we don't support
> at
> > >> Grade A (or some other criteria). As part of the "drop IE8 on XP"
> > >> project[1] we're already promoting Firefox as the alternative option.
> I
> > >> was imagining it could be a small and unobtrusive bubble
> > >> notification[2], similar to those that Google pushes Chrome on people
> > with.
> > >>
> > >> If users use modern browsers, they're going to have better security
> > >> support, and most likely a better experience browsing Wikimedia sites
> > >> too. We'd be improving the web by reducing legacy browsers, and
> allowing
> > >> us to move forward with newer technology sooner (ideally).
> > >>
> > >> And we'd be supporting a project that is ideologically aligned with
> us:
> > >> Mozilla.
> > >>
> > >> Thoughts, opinions?
> > >>
> > >> [1] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T147199
> > >> [2] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Bubble_notifications
> > >>
> > >> Thanks,
> > >> -- Legoktm
> > >>
> > >> ___
> > >> Wikitech-l mailing list
> > >> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> > >
> > > I'm concerned this would be seen as an inapropriate bias.
> > >
> > > Suggesting Firefox for IE8 on XP makes sense because it is basically
> > > the only option for that platform that is reasonably secure and not
> > > super obscure. Promoting firefox is general for legacy browsers seems
> > > like a slippery slope to me.
> > >
> > > Additionally, I think this is more a political than a technical
> > > decision, and one that would require consultation with the general
> > > Wikimedia community (e.g. Meta RFC).
> > >
> > > --
> > > Brian
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >
> > +1 on appearing to be a slippery slope and benefiting from wider,
> > political, discussion.
> >
> > I've promoted Wikimedia and projects as being deliberately agnostic.
> > Strategically, locking Wikimedia into fixed relationships with other
> > organizations with their own drives and timelines, is going to
> > increase risks downstream.
> >
> > Fae
> > --
> > fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> >
> > ___
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> > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >
>
>
>
> --
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> product analyst
> Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Recommending Firefox to users using legacy browsers?

2017-08-31 Thread Neil Patel Quinn 
Personally (because I have no expertise in thing kind of thing in my WMF
capacity), I'd very much support this. It *would *be showing a bias towards
Mozilla and Firefox, but I think it's entirely reasonable for us to be
biased towards non-profit, open technology. A web with Firefox as a strong
player is considerably more hospitable to us than one without.

I agree this should be discussed in a wider forum like on Meta, but I look
forward to supporting it there too :)

On 31 August 2017 at 14:20, Fæ  wrote:

> On 31 August 2017 at 21:37, bawolff  wrote:
> > On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 8:14 PM, Legoktm 
> wrote:
> >> Hello,
> >>
> >> This was something that came up during "The Big Open" at Wikimania, when
> >> Katherine Maher talked with Ryan Merkley (CEO of Creative Commons) and
> >> Mark Surman (ED of Mozilla Foundation). One of the themes mentioned was
> >> that our projects need to work together and support each other.
> >>
> >> In that vein, I'm interested in what people think about promoting
> >> Firefox to users who are using legacy browsers that we don't support at
> >> Grade A (or some other criteria). As part of the "drop IE8 on XP"
> >> project[1] we're already promoting Firefox as the alternative option. I
> >> was imagining it could be a small and unobtrusive bubble
> >> notification[2], similar to those that Google pushes Chrome on people
> with.
> >>
> >> If users use modern browsers, they're going to have better security
> >> support, and most likely a better experience browsing Wikimedia sites
> >> too. We'd be improving the web by reducing legacy browsers, and allowing
> >> us to move forward with newer technology sooner (ideally).
> >>
> >> And we'd be supporting a project that is ideologically aligned with us:
> >> Mozilla.
> >>
> >> Thoughts, opinions?
> >>
> >> [1] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T147199
> >> [2] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Bubble_notifications
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> -- Legoktm
> >>
> >> ___
> >> Wikitech-l mailing list
> >> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >
> > I'm concerned this would be seen as an inapropriate bias.
> >
> > Suggesting Firefox for IE8 on XP makes sense because it is basically
> > the only option for that platform that is reasonably secure and not
> > super obscure. Promoting firefox is general for legacy browsers seems
> > like a slippery slope to me.
> >
> > Additionally, I think this is more a political than a technical
> > decision, and one that would require consultation with the general
> > Wikimedia community (e.g. Meta RFC).
> >
> > --
> > Brian
> >
> > ___
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
> +1 on appearing to be a slippery slope and benefiting from wider,
> political, discussion.
>
> I've promoted Wikimedia and projects as being deliberately agnostic.
> Strategically, locking Wikimedia into fixed relationships with other
> organizations with their own drives and timelines, is going to
> increase risks downstream.
>
> Fae
> --
> fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Recommending Firefox to users using legacy browsers?

2017-08-31 Thread Fæ 
On 31 August 2017 at 21:37, bawolff  wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 8:14 PM, Legoktm  wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> This was something that came up during "The Big Open" at Wikimania, when
>> Katherine Maher talked with Ryan Merkley (CEO of Creative Commons) and
>> Mark Surman (ED of Mozilla Foundation). One of the themes mentioned was
>> that our projects need to work together and support each other.
>>
>> In that vein, I'm interested in what people think about promoting
>> Firefox to users who are using legacy browsers that we don't support at
>> Grade A (or some other criteria). As part of the "drop IE8 on XP"
>> project[1] we're already promoting Firefox as the alternative option. I
>> was imagining it could be a small and unobtrusive bubble
>> notification[2], similar to those that Google pushes Chrome on people with.
>>
>> If users use modern browsers, they're going to have better security
>> support, and most likely a better experience browsing Wikimedia sites
>> too. We'd be improving the web by reducing legacy browsers, and allowing
>> us to move forward with newer technology sooner (ideally).
>>
>> And we'd be supporting a project that is ideologically aligned with us:
>> Mozilla.
>>
>> Thoughts, opinions?
>>
>> [1] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T147199
>> [2] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Bubble_notifications
>>
>> Thanks,
>> -- Legoktm
>>
>> ___
>> Wikitech-l mailing list
>> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
> I'm concerned this would be seen as an inapropriate bias.
>
> Suggesting Firefox for IE8 on XP makes sense because it is basically
> the only option for that platform that is reasonably secure and not
> super obscure. Promoting firefox is general for legacy browsers seems
> like a slippery slope to me.
>
> Additionally, I think this is more a political than a technical
> decision, and one that would require consultation with the general
> Wikimedia community (e.g. Meta RFC).
>
> --
> Brian
>
> ___
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

+1 on appearing to be a slippery slope and benefiting from wider,
political, discussion.

I've promoted Wikimedia and projects as being deliberately agnostic.
Strategically, locking Wikimedia into fixed relationships with other
organizations with their own drives and timelines, is going to
increase risks downstream.

Fae
-- 
fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Recommending Firefox to users using legacy browsers?

2017-08-31 Thread Jon Robson 
The best way we can invest in Firefox is via open web technology such as
push notifications imo.

On Thu, 31 Aug 2017 at 16:51 Max Semenik  wrote:

> +1 to that. Additionally, the proposed method wouldn't even work because we
> blacklist crappy browsers from receiving JS.
>
> On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 1:37 PM, bawolff  wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 8:14 PM, Legoktm 
> > wrote:
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > > This was something that came up during "The Big Open" at Wikimania,
> when
> > > Katherine Maher talked with Ryan Merkley (CEO of Creative Commons) and
> > > Mark Surman (ED of Mozilla Foundation). One of the themes mentioned was
> > > that our projects need to work together and support each other.
> > >
> > > In that vein, I'm interested in what people think about promoting
> > > Firefox to users who are using legacy browsers that we don't support at
> > > Grade A (or some other criteria). As part of the "drop IE8 on XP"
> > > project[1] we're already promoting Firefox as the alternative option. I
> > > was imagining it could be a small and unobtrusive bubble
> > > notification[2], similar to those that Google pushes Chrome on people
> > with.
> > >
> > > If users use modern browsers, they're going to have better security
> > > support, and most likely a better experience browsing Wikimedia sites
> > > too. We'd be improving the web by reducing legacy browsers, and
> allowing
> > > us to move forward with newer technology sooner (ideally).
> > >
> > > And we'd be supporting a project that is ideologically aligned with us:
> > > Mozilla.
> > >
> > > Thoughts, opinions?
> > >
> > > [1] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T147199
> > > [2] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Bubble_notifications
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > -- Legoktm
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >
> > I'm concerned this would be seen as an inapropriate bias.
> >
> > Suggesting Firefox for IE8 on XP makes sense because it is basically
> > the only option for that platform that is reasonably secure and not
> > super obscure. Promoting firefox is general for legacy browsers seems
> > like a slippery slope to me.
> >
> > Additionally, I think this is more a political than a technical
> > decision, and one that would require consultation with the general
> > Wikimedia community (e.g. Meta RFC).
> >
> > --
> > Brian
> >
> > ___
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Max Semenik ([[User:MaxSem]])
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Recommending Firefox to users using legacy browsers?

2017-08-31 Thread Max Semenik 
+1 to that. Additionally, the proposed method wouldn't even work because we
blacklist crappy browsers from receiving JS.

On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 1:37 PM, bawolff  wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 8:14 PM, Legoktm 
> wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > This was something that came up during "The Big Open" at Wikimania, when
> > Katherine Maher talked with Ryan Merkley (CEO of Creative Commons) and
> > Mark Surman (ED of Mozilla Foundation). One of the themes mentioned was
> > that our projects need to work together and support each other.
> >
> > In that vein, I'm interested in what people think about promoting
> > Firefox to users who are using legacy browsers that we don't support at
> > Grade A (or some other criteria). As part of the "drop IE8 on XP"
> > project[1] we're already promoting Firefox as the alternative option. I
> > was imagining it could be a small and unobtrusive bubble
> > notification[2], similar to those that Google pushes Chrome on people
> with.
> >
> > If users use modern browsers, they're going to have better security
> > support, and most likely a better experience browsing Wikimedia sites
> > too. We'd be improving the web by reducing legacy browsers, and allowing
> > us to move forward with newer technology sooner (ideally).
> >
> > And we'd be supporting a project that is ideologically aligned with us:
> > Mozilla.
> >
> > Thoughts, opinions?
> >
> > [1] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T147199
> > [2] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Bubble_notifications
> >
> > Thanks,
> > -- Legoktm
> >
> > ___
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
> I'm concerned this would be seen as an inapropriate bias.
>
> Suggesting Firefox for IE8 on XP makes sense because it is basically
> the only option for that platform that is reasonably secure and not
> super obscure. Promoting firefox is general for legacy browsers seems
> like a slippery slope to me.
>
> Additionally, I think this is more a political than a technical
> decision, and one that would require consultation with the general
> Wikimedia community (e.g. Meta RFC).
>
> --
> Brian
>
> ___
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>



-- 
Best regards,
Max Semenik ([[User:MaxSem]])
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Recommending Firefox to users using legacy browsers?

2017-08-31 Thread bawolff 
On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 8:14 PM, Legoktm  wrote:
> Hello,
>
> This was something that came up during "The Big Open" at Wikimania, when
> Katherine Maher talked with Ryan Merkley (CEO of Creative Commons) and
> Mark Surman (ED of Mozilla Foundation). One of the themes mentioned was
> that our projects need to work together and support each other.
>
> In that vein, I'm interested in what people think about promoting
> Firefox to users who are using legacy browsers that we don't support at
> Grade A (or some other criteria). As part of the "drop IE8 on XP"
> project[1] we're already promoting Firefox as the alternative option. I
> was imagining it could be a small and unobtrusive bubble
> notification[2], similar to those that Google pushes Chrome on people with.
>
> If users use modern browsers, they're going to have better security
> support, and most likely a better experience browsing Wikimedia sites
> too. We'd be improving the web by reducing legacy browsers, and allowing
> us to move forward with newer technology sooner (ideally).
>
> And we'd be supporting a project that is ideologically aligned with us:
> Mozilla.
>
> Thoughts, opinions?
>
> [1] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T147199
> [2] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Bubble_notifications
>
> Thanks,
> -- Legoktm
>
> ___
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

I'm concerned this would be seen as an inapropriate bias.

Suggesting Firefox for IE8 on XP makes sense because it is basically
the only option for that platform that is reasonably secure and not
super obscure. Promoting firefox is general for legacy browsers seems
like a slippery slope to me.

Additionally, I think this is more a political than a technical
decision, and one that would require consultation with the general
Wikimedia community (e.g. Meta RFC).

--
Brian

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[Wikitech-l] Recommending Firefox to users using legacy browsers?

2017-08-31 Thread Legoktm 
Hello,

This was something that came up during "The Big Open" at Wikimania, when
Katherine Maher talked with Ryan Merkley (CEO of Creative Commons) and
Mark Surman (ED of Mozilla Foundation). One of the themes mentioned was
that our projects need to work together and support each other.

In that vein, I'm interested in what people think about promoting
Firefox to users who are using legacy browsers that we don't support at
Grade A (or some other criteria). As part of the "drop IE8 on XP"
project[1] we're already promoting Firefox as the alternative option. I
was imagining it could be a small and unobtrusive bubble
notification[2], similar to those that Google pushes Chrome on people with.

If users use modern browsers, they're going to have better security
support, and most likely a better experience browsing Wikimedia sites
too. We'd be improving the web by reducing legacy browsers, and allowing
us to move forward with newer technology sooner (ideally).

And we'd be supporting a project that is ideologically aligned with us:
Mozilla.

Thoughts, opinions?

[1] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T147199
[2] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Bubble_notifications

Thanks,
-- Legoktm

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