Re: [WISPA] Topic change - Trade Association Was: Report: FCCtoPunishComcast Over Web Blocking
insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Frank Muto [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 9:06 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Topic change - Trade Association Was: Report: FCCtoPunishComcast Over Web Blocking You don't get it. CALEA was a good thing for WISPA and its members. No, of course I don't get it. This has got to be one of the dumbest thing I have ever heard in my life. I can find NO benefit to it of ANY kind. Nor has anyone I know of explained a single benefit, ever. It is a mandate on how a network must function, a limitation to equipment, software, topology, and redundancy, and an absurd notion in the first place. It is a direct requirement to dumb-down and overbuild bandwidth, with NO return of ANY kind, financial or otherwise. A good thing? Obviously, you're in the camp that expecting to get money ripped out of someone else's pockets and headed your way. Or, just try to explain it. Nobody has till now. They make the statement, but the logic used is an insult to our intelligence. You need to understand that you pick the battles you feel you can win. WISPA has gained a good amount of respect from the FCC, but this is only one of many battle fronts WISP's are up against. Gained respect? Please. This is imaginary nonsense. We're forgotten faster than styrofoam cup in a hurricane. We haven't got the millions to bribe them with, so there is no amount of positive influence we can have. The FIGHT for US battle cry you comment on takes money, time and a good amount off leg work to make things work. No kidding. I agree entirely. But when people start the comments like CALEA is good for us, whatever agenda they have in mind is NOT the well being of WISP's, but some kind of other agenda. You are dealing with a bureau that has many different levels of staffing, it can take weeks to know who to talk to, when and if they will talk to you, will it be ex-parte or not, etc, etc, etc. Like any other organization. Understand that the RBOCs and other companies are clamoring for the eyes and ears of those a the FCC, as WISPs need to get to.The fight is not only on the federal level, but also at the state and local levels as well. I'm still not sure exactly what your point is here. I understand the need to talk to all levels of government, but if we're going to take the mindset that all mandates and rules are Holy and Untouchable, then what is the point? 95% of what WISPA should be doing should be DEFENSIVE from an overreaching government agency of some kind. And it seems the present leadership has absolutely NO interest in defense at all, just playing looky, I got to talk to the Holy Ones in DC game, some kind of hat in hand subservence... WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Topic change - Trade Association Was: Report: FCCtoPunishComcast Over Web Blocking
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote, in relation to a previous statement about CALEA being good for WISPA: I can find NO benefit to it of ANY kind. Nor has anyone I know of explained a single benefit, ever. It is a mandate on how a network must function, a limitation to equipment, software, topology, and redundancy, and an absurd notion in the first place. It is a direct requirement to dumb-down and overbuild bandwidth, with NO return of ANY kind, financial or otherwise. From my perspective, almost everyone in the WISP industry got broadsided by the whole CALEA thing... But by the time everyone was aware of the requirements, it was too late to do anything meaningful as far as the rules themselves. What WISPA did was diffuse a potentially very bad and very expensive situation for WISP's. In short, the standards which WISPA developed and got approved basically says that you have to be able to packet sniff the data and provide it to the LEA. One actual statement in the APPROVED standard says: In unusual cases it may be impossible to perform one or more of these functions. The WISP is expected to make a best effort attempt to satisfy these requirements. It doesn't say you have to redesign your network. It doesn't say you have to dumb down a network. It doesn't say you have to overbuild bandwidth. Go ahead read the standard.. and realize that the ability to comply with this very easy to comply with standard is your safe harbor all thanks to the hard work provided by WISPA. You can choose how much you want to do to prepare. True, you may have to go put a packet sniffer at an AP site in response to a intercept request, but I suspect that would have been the case before CALEA as well. -forrest WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Topic change - Trade Association Was: Report:FCCtoPunishComcast Over Web Blocking
Frank can speak for himself, but IMO CALEA is a pain in the rear for every service provider. It is not, and was not, optional. What Wispa did was give operators (members or not) the ability to comply with the law without spending fortunes to do it. You don't need a TTP and you don't need a $100K mediation box. ImageStream and Mikrotik both will support the new standard, so if you have one of those vendors all you will need is a collection server (and some expertise from the manufacturer or consultant). Wispa also was able to get a year grace (from May 2008) for WISPs who cannot comply because of network design. IIRC, you are in that boat. In short, you don't have to like CALEA (it's way less onerous and intrusive than Carnvore), but it is a fact of life. Another fact...whether or not you ever give a dime to Wispa they have helped you immensely. The CALEA committee put in countless hours to get this done. Join or don't, but don't say that there is no value in membership. CALEA is just one reason. Jeff -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 2:04 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Topic change - Trade Association Was: Report:FCCtoPunishComcast Over Web Blocking insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Frank Muto [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 9:06 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Topic change - Trade Association Was: Report: FCCtoPunishComcast Over Web Blocking You don't get it. CALEA was a good thing for WISPA and its members. No, of course I don't get it. This has got to be one of the dumbest thing I have ever heard in my life. I can find NO benefit to it of ANY kind. Nor has anyone I know of explained a single benefit, ever. It is a mandate on how a network must function, a limitation to equipment, software, topology, and redundancy, and an absurd notion in the first place. It is a direct requirement to dumb-down and overbuild bandwidth, with NO return of ANY kind, financial or otherwise. A good thing? Obviously, you're in the camp that expecting to get money ripped out of someone else's pockets and headed your way. Or, just try to explain it. Nobody has till now. They make the statement, but the logic used is an insult to our intelligence. You need to understand that you pick the battles you feel you can win. WISPA has gained a good amount of respect from the FCC, but this is only one of many battle fronts WISP's are up against. Gained respect? Please. This is imaginary nonsense. We're forgotten faster than styrofoam cup in a hurricane. We haven't got the millions to bribe them with, so there is no amount of positive influence we can have. The FIGHT for US battle cry you comment on takes money, time and a good amount off leg work to make things work. No kidding. I agree entirely. But when people start the comments like CALEA is good for us, whatever agenda they have in mind is NOT the well being of WISP's, but some kind of other agenda. You are dealing with a bureau that has many different levels of staffing, it can take weeks to know who to talk to, when and if they will talk to you, will it be ex-parte or not, etc, etc, etc. Like any other organization. Understand that the RBOCs and other companies are clamoring for the eyes and ears of those a the FCC, as WISPs need to get to.The fight is not only on the federal level, but also at the state and local levels as well. I'm still not sure exactly what your point is here. I understand the need to talk to all levels of government, but if we're going to take the mindset that all mandates and rules are Holy and Untouchable, then what is the point? 95% of what WISPA should be doing should be DEFENSIVE from an overreaching government agency of some kind. And it seems the present leadership has absolutely NO interest in defense at all, just playing looky, I got to talk to the Holy Ones in DC game, some kind of hat in hand subservence... WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Topic change - Trade Association Was:Report:FCCtoPunishComcast Over Web Blocking
We have had the CALEA pain in the telco side for a decade. Believe me, it was much more expensive to become compliant if you were a LEC. Fact of the matter is that the internet is becoming the defacto alternate PSTN network and when you are a public utility you become beholden to the public you serve and the greater good. If a bad guy is hiding behind your network, being a good corporate citizen of this nation, it is your duty to help law enforcement do their job. Telcos did not like CALEA any more than the ISPs. Actually, the FBI and CALEA vendors are the only ones that liked CALEA. An analogy would be, if we discovered a way to transport water over the internet, and people started using IP water than the city water lines, don't you think that the health department ought to then become interested in the quality of the water you sell? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 2:04 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Topic change - Trade Association Was: Report:FCCtoPunishComcast Over Web Blocking insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Frank Muto [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 9:06 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Topic change - Trade Association Was: Report: FCCtoPunishComcast Over Web Blocking You don't get it. CALEA was a good thing for WISPA and its members. No, of course I don't get it. This has got to be one of the dumbest thing I have ever heard in my life. I can find NO benefit to it of ANY kind. Nor has anyone I know of explained a single benefit, ever. It is a mandate on how a network must function, a limitation to equipment, software, topology, and redundancy, and an absurd notion in the first place. It is a direct requirement to dumb-down and overbuild bandwidth, with NO return of ANY kind, financial or otherwise. A good thing? Obviously, you're in the camp that expecting to get money ripped out of someone else's pockets and headed your way. Or, just try to explain it. Nobody has till now. They make the statement, but the logic used is an insult to our intelligence. You need to understand that you pick the battles you feel you can win. WISPA has gained a good amount of respect from the FCC, but this is only one of many battle fronts WISP's are up against. Gained respect? Please. This is imaginary nonsense. We're forgotten faster than styrofoam cup in a hurricane. We haven't got the millions to bribe them with, so there is no amount of positive influence we can have. The FIGHT for US battle cry you comment on takes money, time and a good amount off leg work to make things work. No kidding. I agree entirely. But when people start the comments like CALEA is good for us, whatever agenda they have in mind is NOT the well being of WISP's, but some kind of other agenda. You are dealing with a bureau that has many different levels of staffing, it can take weeks to know who to talk to, when and if they will talk to you, will it be ex-parte or not, etc, etc, etc. Like any other organization. Understand that the RBOCs and other companies are clamoring for the eyes and ears of those a the FCC, as WISPs need to get to.The fight is not only on the federal level, but also at the state and local levels as well. I'm still not sure exactly what your point is here. I understand the need to talk to all levels of government, but if we're going to take the mindset that all mandates and rules are Holy and Untouchable, then what is the point? 95% of what WISPA should be doing should be DEFENSIVE from an overreaching government agency of some kind. And it seems the present leadership has absolutely NO interest in defense at all, just playing looky, I got to talk to the Holy Ones in DC game, some kind of hat in hand subservence... WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/
Re: [WISPA] Topic change - Trade Association Was:Report:FCCtoPunishComcast Over Web Blocking
On Sun, 13 Jul 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: We have had the CALEA pain in the telco side for a decade. Believe me, it was much more expensive to become compliant if you were a LEC. This is correct. There was some money available to assist, but not enough for 100% of the cost involved. I'm not going into the politics involved here, but I can imagine the logistical nightmare of trying to oversee moneys to assist ISPs with doing the same thing. Either way, WISPA's standard makes this a moot point, as the real cost is VERY minimal (actually, nearly $0) for MOST WISPs to become compliant. Fact of the matter is that the internet is becoming the defacto alternate PSTN network and when you are a public utility you become beholden to the public you serve and the greater good. Good point. I think the real problem with this discussion is that we are trying to answer a question that is based on a false premise. CALEA is NOT about forcing ISPs to provide data. We were always in that boat, given that LEA could ask for subpoenas and get them. CALEA is about protecting the innocent. What CALEA actually does is only 3 things: 1. It forces the industry to decide on an industry standard method for delivering the data. The WISPA CALEA Standard does this. 2. It places requirements on LEA for proving to a judge the need for the data. This means that there are limits to the types of data, as well as the volume of the data that an LEA can get. 3. Because of number 2, it protects the consumer. LEA cannot willy-nilly ask for data captures or records from an ISP just because they want to go on a witch hunt. They must provide information to the judge that tells that judge specifically what they are looking for. If you come into this discussion with the notion that CALEA is about forcing ISPs to do anything, then you are looking at it in the wrong way. If a bad guy is hiding behind your network, being a good corporate citizen of this nation, it is your duty to help law enforcement do their job. This was not something that came along just with CALEA. It's ALWAYS been that way. I've been in this industry long enough to have fulfilled MANY subpoena requests. Telcos did not like CALEA any more than the ISPs. Actually, the FBI and CALEA vendors are the only ones that liked CALEA. There are politics and a LOT of money to back this statement up. There are a handful of (former) FCC employees that are very wealthy as a result of the CALEA laws being applied to data networks. I won't go further into this, because it just raises my blood pressure. -- *Butch Evans*Professional Network Consultation * *Network Engineering*MikroTik RouterOS * *573-276-2879 *ImageStream * *http://www.butchevans.com/ *StarOS and MORE * *http://blog.butchevans.com/*Wired or wireless Networks* *Mikrotik Certified Consultant *Professional Technical Trainer* WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Topic change - Trade Association Was: Report: FCCtoPunishComcast Over Web Blocking
Thank You , Forrest. Concise and to the point. Ron Wallace Hahnron, Inc. 220 S. Jackson Dt. Addison, MI 49220 Phone: (517)547-8410 Mobile: (517)270-2410 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Forrest W Christian [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 02:52 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Topic change - Trade Association Was: Report: FCCtoPunishComcast Over Web Blocking [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote, in relation to a previous statement about CALEA being good for WISPA: I can find NO benefit to it of ANY kind. Nor has anyone I know of explained a single benefit, ever. It is a mandate on how a network must function, a limitation to equipment, software, topology, and redundancy, and an absurd notion in the first place. It is a direct requirement to dumb-down and overbuild bandwidth, with NO return of ANY kind, financial or otherwise. From my perspective, almost everyone in the WISP industry got broadsided by the whole CALEA thing... But by the time everyone was aware of the requirements, it was too late to do anything meaningful as far as the rules themselves. What WISPA did was diffuse a potentially very bad and very expensive situation for WISP's. In short, the standards which WISPA developed and got approved basically says that you have to be able to packet sniff the data and provide it to the LEA. One actual statement in the APPROVED standard says: In unusual cases it may be impossible to perform one or more of these functions. The WISP is expected to make a best effort attempt to satisfy these requirements. It doesn't say you have to redesign your network. It doesn't say you have to dumb down a network. It doesn't say you have to overbuild bandwidth. Go ahead read the standard.. and realize that the ability to comply with this very easy to comply with standard is your safe harbor all thanks to the hard work provided by WISPA. You can choose how much you want to do to prepare. True, you may have to go put a packet sniffer at an AP site in response to a intercept request, but I suspect that would have been the case before CALEA as well. -forrest WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: [EMAIL PROTECTED] pa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Topic change - Trade Association Was: Report: FCCtoPunishComcast Over Web Blocking
Forrest, the notion that some networks can't be sniffed was certainly given some time back when and somewhat addressed - although more along the lines of why on earth would you NOT have a single point of failure network?, as if that's a good thing. I'd like to note that according to recent commentary by WISPA leadership, you WILL either fully comply... Or else. That was only a temporary stop-gap, and you were expected to make your system fully compliant over time. BTW, where's the This network topology cannot be made compliant option on the filing you're required to do? Oh, wait, no such LEGAL provision exists for reporting purposes. Again, you have not made the case that CALEA is good in any way. insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Forrest W Christian [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 11:52 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Topic change - Trade Association Was: Report: FCCtoPunishComcast Over Web Blocking [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote, in relation to a previous statement about CALEA being good for WISPA: I can find NO benefit to it of ANY kind. Nor has anyone I know of explained a single benefit, ever. It is a mandate on how a network must function, a limitation to equipment, software, topology, and redundancy, and an absurd notion in the first place. It is a direct requirement to dumb-down and overbuild bandwidth, with NO return of ANY kind, financial or otherwise. From my perspective, almost everyone in the WISP industry got broadsided by the whole CALEA thing... But by the time everyone was aware of the requirements, it was too late to do anything meaningful as far as the rules themselves. What WISPA did was diffuse a potentially very bad and very expensive situation for WISP's. In short, the standards which WISPA developed and got approved basically says that you have to be able to packet sniff the data and provide it to the LEA. One actual statement in the APPROVED standard says: In unusual cases it may be impossible to perform one or more of these functions. The WISP is expected to make a best effort attempt to satisfy these requirements. It doesn't say you have to redesign your network. It doesn't say you have to dumb down a network. It doesn't say you have to overbuild bandwidth. Go ahead read the standard.. and realize that the ability to comply with this very easy to comply with standard is your safe harbor all thanks to the hard work provided by WISPA. You can choose how much you want to do to prepare. True, you may have to go put a packet sniffer at an AP site in response to a intercept request, but I suspect that would have been the case before CALEA as well. -forrest WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Topic change - Trade AssociationWas:Report:FCCtoPunishComcast Over Web Blocking
I still don't get it. I really don't. CALEA was designed for a telco network. It is simply NOT APPLICABLE in design or function to a multi-homed IP network. I keep hearing how so much time and effort was put into this... But I can explain in plain, clear, and unmistakeable language to any reasonably intelligent person how it is simply not the way to intercept IP communications. Yet nobody has claimed they attempted to even explain this, nor even object, much less state this is impossible in a properly designed wireless IP network. Didn't anyone even try? It appears not. Rather, it looks to me like all WISPA did was get some lubrication for the square peg to go into the round hole. Obligation to help law enforcement? This is stated up front, in my sales contract, LONG BEFORE CALEA WAS EVER HEARD OF, that I will assist law enforcement any way I can in criminal investigation. No matter how many times you try to change the subject to you need to help law enforcment, which has NEVER been the issue, it still fails to address the fact that no properly designed and operating wireless network can be CALEA compliant. insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 11:10 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Topic change - Trade AssociationWas:Report:FCCtoPunishComcast Over Web Blocking We have had the CALEA pain in the telco side for a decade. Believe me, it was much more expensive to become compliant if you were a LEC. Fact of the matter is that the internet is becoming the defacto alternate PSTN network and when you are a public utility you become beholden to the public you serve and the greater good. If a bad guy is hiding behind your network, being a good corporate citizen of this nation, it is your duty to help law enforcement do their job. Telcos did not like CALEA any more than the ISPs. Actually, the FBI and CALEA vendors are the only ones that liked CALEA. An analogy would be, if we discovered a way to transport water over the internet, and people started using IP water than the city water lines, don't you think that the health department ought to then become interested in the quality of the water you sell? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 2:04 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Topic change - Trade Association Was: Report:FCCtoPunishComcast Over Web Blocking insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Frank Muto [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 9:06 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Topic change - Trade Association Was: Report: FCCtoPunishComcast Over Web Blocking You don't get it. CALEA was a good thing for WISPA and its members. No, of course I don't get it. This has got to be one of the dumbest thing I have ever heard in my life. I can find NO benefit to it of ANY kind. Nor has anyone I know of explained a single benefit, ever. It is a mandate on how a network must function, a limitation to equipment, software, topology, and redundancy, and an absurd notion in the first place. It is a direct requirement to dumb-down and overbuild bandwidth, with NO return of ANY kind, financial or otherwise. A good thing? Obviously, you're in the camp that expecting to get money ripped out of someone else's pockets and headed your way. Or, just try to explain it. Nobody has till now. They make the statement, but the logic used is an insult to our intelligence. You need to understand that you pick the battles you feel you can win. WISPA has gained a good amount of respect from the FCC, but this is only one of many battle fronts WISP's are up against. Gained respect? Please. This is imaginary nonsense. We're forgotten faster than styrofoam cup in a hurricane. We haven't got the millions to bribe them with, so there is no amount of positive influence we can have. The FIGHT for US battle cry you comment on takes money, time and a good amount off leg work to make things work. No kidding. I agree entirely. But when people start the comments like CALEA is good for us, whatever agenda they have in mind is NOT the well being of WISP's, but some kind of other agenda. You are dealing with a bureau that has many different levels of staffing, it can take weeks to know who to talk to, when and if they will talk to you, will it be ex-parte or not, etc, etc, etc. Like any other organization. Understand that the RBOCs and other companies are clamoring for the eyes and ears of those a the FCC, as WISPs need to get to.The fight is not only on the federal level, but also at the state and local levels as well. I'm still not sure exactly
Re: [WISPA] Topic change - Trade Association Was:Report:FCCtoPunishComcast Over Web Blocking
insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 11:54 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Topic change - Trade Association Was:Report:FCCtoPunishComcast Over Web Blocking On Sun, 13 Jul 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: This is correct. There was some money available to assist, but not enough for 100% of the cost involved. I'm not going into the politics involved here, but I can imagine the logistical nightmare of trying to oversee moneys to assist ISPs with doing the same thing. Either way, WISPA's standard makes this a moot point, as the real cost is VERY minimal (actually, nearly $0) for MOST WISPs to become compliant. I can't imagine how this is true. Are you attempting to tell me that all of you operate with a single point of failure? Fact of the matter is that the internet is becoming the defacto alternate PSTN network and when you are a public utility you become beholden to the public you serve and the greater good. Good point. I think the real problem with this discussion is that we are trying to answer a question that is based on a false premise. CALEA is NOT about forcing ISPs to provide data. We were always in that boat, given that LEA could ask for subpoenas and get them. CALEA is about protecting the innocent. What CALEA actually does is only 3 things: 1. It forces the industry to decide on an industry standard method for delivering the data. The WISPA CALEA Standard does this. This is completely broken, unrepairable. The methodology is simply not compatible with intelligent network design. 2. It places requirements on LEA for proving to a judge the need for the data. This means that there are limits to the types of data, as well as the volume of the data that an LEA can get. This has always been the case, and has nothing to do with technical mandates on network design and function. 3. Because of number 2, it protects the consumer. LEA cannot willy-nilly ask for data captures or records from an ISP just because they want to go on a witch hunt. They must provide information to the judge that tells that judge specifically what they are looking for. This is established law clear back to the signing of the Constitution. Can't figure out what CALEA has to do with this, other than it mentions this again. If you come into this discussion with the notion that CALEA is about forcing ISPs to do anything, then you are looking at it in the wrong way. No, it is just one more nail in our coffin, removing what I consider to be the single greatest advantage to using wireless WAN's. Telcos did not like CALEA any more than the ISPs. Actually, the FBI and CALEA vendors are the only ones that liked CALEA. There are politics and a LOT of money to back this statement up. There are a handful of (former) FCC employees that are very wealthy as a result of the CALEA laws being applied to data networks. I won't go further into this, because it just raises my blood pressure. Let 'er rip, Butch... repressed anger raises blood pressure more than expressed anger :) -- *Butch Evans *Professional Network Consultation * *Network Engineering *MikroTik RouterOS* *573-276-2879 *ImageStream * *http://www.butchevans.com/ *StarOS and MORE * *http://blog.butchevans.com/*Wired or wireless Networks* *Mikrotik Certified Consultant *Professional Technical Trainer* WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Topic change - Trade AssociationWas:Report:FCCtoPunishComcast Over Web Blocking
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No matter how many times you try to change the subject to you need to help law enforcment, which has NEVER been the issue, it still fails to address the fact that no properly designed and operating wireless network can be CALEA compliant. Explain how your network is designed such that you can't go to an AP site and insert a packet sniffer and gather all of the internet traffic for a specific customer attached to that AP - excluding traffic between two customers on the same AP. That is all that is required for CALEA compliance, thanks to WISPA. -forrest WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Topic change - Trade AssociationWas:Report:FCCtoPunishComcast Over Web Blocking
Let us know when that coffin is nailed shut. I am sure there will be a wisp ready to step up and take over your customers. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] No, it is just one more nail in our coffin, removing what I consider to be the single greatest advantage to using wireless WAN's. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Topic change - Trade AssociationWas:Report:FCCtoPunishComcast Over Web Blocking
w00t - Original Message - From: Forrest W Christian [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 6:50 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Topic change - Trade AssociationWas:Report:FCCtoPunishComcast Over Web Blocking [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No matter how many times you try to change the subject to you need to help law enforcment, which has NEVER been the issue, it still fails to address the fact that no properly designed and operating wireless network can be CALEA compliant. Explain how your network is designed such that you can't go to an AP site and insert a packet sniffer and gather all of the internet traffic for a specific customer attached to that AP - excluding traffic between two customers on the same AP. That is all that is required for CALEA compliance, thanks to WISPA. -forrest WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Topic change - Trade AssociationWas:Report: FCCtoPunishComcast Over Web Blocking
For telcos, that assistance was in the form of CALEA complaint software upgrades for a very few brands of switches. If you were Nortel you were OK. I think the same thing with GTE but the switches we had did not have an FBI supplied software load so we got zero assistance for CALEA. - Original Message - From: Frank Muto [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 7:04 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Topic change - Trade AssociationWas:Report: FCCtoPunishComcast Over Web Blocking Since when is the discussion about CALEA been about whether it is good? Are you even in the same thread? The key take away from WISPA's involvement was a useable standard that LEA can work with, as each WISP can then provide the LEA with the information as is available within their network, as provided for within the statue of CALEA. The wire-line side, e.g., telcos, dealt with CALEA on a different level because of the amount of information readily available through standards already in existence and others made available since 1994 and updated again in August of 1999 for cellular and personal communications services. Unfortunately the telcos, i.e., telecommunications carriers were provided with greater assistance in their efforts to become compliant, where as the WISP's and VOIP providers were not afforded the same. Compliance with CALEA is available in 3 ways, 1. A service provider may develop its own compliance solution for its unique network, e.g, a WISP. 2. may purchase a compliance solution from vendors, or 3. purchase a compliance solution from a trusted third party, (TTP). What WISPA did was developed a compliance standard that LEA can work with, as an industry it is responsible for setting CALEA standards, pursuant to the statues of CALEA. Not to rehash the whole CALEA ordeal, which certainly was the case, this is just one example of how WISPA got involved and took on the initiative to do something about it, with or without your help. IMO, CALEA was the most important issue to deal with at the time and it got done. Frank - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 8:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Topic change - Trade Association Was:Report: FCCtoPunishComcast Over Web Blocking Forrest, the notion that some networks can't be sniffed was certainly given some time back when and somewhat addressed - although more along the lines of why on earth would you NOT have a single point of failure network?, as if that's a good thing. I'd like to note that according to recent commentary by WISPA leadership, you WILL either fully comply... Or else. That was only a temporary stop-gap, and you were expected to make your system fully compliant over time. BTW, where's the This network topology cannot be made compliant option on the filing you're required to do? Oh, wait, no such LEGAL provision exists for reporting purposes. Again, you have not made the case that CALEA is good in any way. insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Forrest W Christian [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 11:52 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Topic change - Trade Association Was: Report: FCCtoPunishComcast Over Web Blocking [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote, in relation to a previous statement about CALEA being good for WISPA: I can find NO benefit to it of ANY kind. Nor has anyone I know of explained a single benefit, ever. It is a mandate on how a network must function, a limitation to equipment, software, topology, and redundancy, and an absurd notion in the first place. It is a direct requirement to dumb-down and overbuild bandwidth, with NO return of ANY kind, financial or otherwise. From my perspective, almost everyone in the WISP industry got broadsided by the whole CALEA thing... But by the time everyone was aware of the requirements, it was too late to do anything meaningful as far as the rules themselves. What WISPA did was diffuse a potentially very bad and very expensive situation for WISP's. In short, the standards which WISPA developed and got approved basically says that you have to be able to packet sniff the data and provide it to the LEA. One actual statement in the APPROVED standard says: In unusual cases it may be impossible to perform one or more of these functions. The WISP is expected to make a best effort attempt to satisfy these requirements. It doesn't say you have to redesign your network. It doesn't say you have to dumb down a network. It doesn't say you have to overbuild bandwidth. Go ahead read the standard.. and realize that the ability to comply with this very easy to comply with standard is your safe harbor all thanks to the hard work provided by WISPA. You can
Re: [WISPA] Topic change - Trade Association Was:Report:FCCtoPunishComcast Over Web Blocking
On Sun, 13 Jul 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: Upon reading some of the original requirements, I decided that etherreal would do the trick. (That was after about a half dozen consulting, hardware and software vendors tried to convince me to buy their solutions that ranged from $9K to $50K) Etherreal/wireshark/tcpdump will NOT be sufficient. There is currently a void in the area of software for a COMPLETE solution to CALEA. These will work in a pinch until a solution that follows the WCS is finished (I know that Mikrotik and ImageStream are both working on a solution as we speak), however these utilities do not work for the XML requirements for the OOB messages. Combinations of these utilites and various log scrapers and some work in perl may get you closer, but still no complete solution exists at this time. -- *Butch Evans*Professional Network Consultation * *Network Engineering*MikroTik RouterOS * *573-276-2879 *ImageStream * *http://www.butchevans.com/ *StarOS and MORE * *http://blog.butchevans.com/*Wired or wireless Networks* *Mikrotik Certified Consultant *Professional Technical Trainer* WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] Election Results
I just wanted to go on record and thank all the members who ran for the Board this year. I was impressed by the quality of the nominee field this year. If I can give on word of advice to those that ran against a full slate of incumbents it would be that many of you were not as visible as many of the board members have been. Many people tend to vote for names they recognize the most, whether they know the people or not. They have a feeling about the person from the list posts they make and other information they draw from the website. We are off to a good year so far and there is a lot happening. Many of those who ran unsuccessfully this year, have already stepped up to the plate to take on committee task assignments and other offers of help. That tells me that they are not bitter, but have recognized what I have said above. It is truly grand to see people offering assistance daily these days. Our board is very thankful for those offers. NOW this is how we get things moving in the right direction. Keep up the good work! Rick WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Topic change - Trade Association Was:Report:FCCtoPunishComcast Over Web Blocking
On Sun, 13 Jul 2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is correct. There was some money available to assist, but not enough for 100% of the cost involved. I'm not going into the politics involved here, but I can imagine the logistical nightmare of trying to oversee moneys to assist ISPs with doing the same thing. Either way, WISPA's standard makes this a moot point, as the real cost is VERY minimal (actually, nearly $0) for MOST WISPs to become compliant. I can't imagine how this is true. Are you attempting to tell me that all of you operate with a single point of failure? Where do you get single point of failure from what I said? Either way, I can tell you if you are using (for example) Mikrotik as your AP solution, then your cost to become CALEA compliant is EXACTLY $0 other than any legal fees you may incur if you have someone assist you with that part. Same is true for ImageStream routers. Also, there is work afoot in the Linux community. I still don't see the single point of failure in any of this. 1. It forces the industry to decide on an industry standard method for delivering the data. The WISPA CALEA Standard does this. This is completely broken, unrepairable. The methodology is simply not compatible with intelligent network design. Tell me what is broken about it. What intelligent design do you use that makes it so hard to capture the data required? I can't imagine ANY professionally built system that CAN'T be EASILY made compliant under the WCS. Of course, you probably know more than I do, being that I only helped write the danged thing. 2. It places requirements on LEA for proving to a judge the need for the data. This means that there are limits to the types of data, as well as the volume of the data that an LEA can get. This has always been the case, and has nothing to do with technical mandates on network design and function. This is precisely correct (to a point). The truth of the matter is that CALEA by itself is NOT a technical mandate. It is simply what I told you it was. The WCS defines some technical requirements, but that is because CALEA requires an INDUSTRY STANDARD. Perhaps it is the industry standard that you have a problem with. I know that the 9 or 10 of us that spent HUNDREDS OF HOURS of our time building the standard would have appreciated your technical input (being a guru on network design and all) but you were simply not around to help. You had decided that ignoring the LAW was a better approach. I certainly hope for your sake that you are never served...the attitude you display here virtually guarantees the steepest of fines, then your self-fulfilling prophecy will be true. This is established law clear back to the signing of the Constitution. Can't figure out what CALEA has to do with this, other than it mentions this again. Then you haven't done enough research. You are too busy thinking that ANY government is bad government to see what the law says. If you come into this discussion with the notion that CALEA is about forcing ISPs to do anything, then you are looking at it in the wrong way. No, it is just one more nail in our coffin, removing what I consider to be the single greatest advantage to using wireless WAN's. Ok..what exactly IS that advantage to wireless that CALEA removes? I see very few posts from you that are anything other than complaints about the government overstepping it's bounds and WISPA didn't stop them, so a new approach from you would be of interest. Let 'er rip, Butch... repressed anger raises blood pressure more than expressed anger :) I have no repressed anger over this. Like you, I expressed my disdain about the FCC decision to include us under the CALEA umbrella. The only difference is that I don't think pissing in the wind is a good way of life, so I moved on to the make my life and work function within the law I don't like phase. Have you ever lived there? -- *Butch Evans*Professional Network Consultation * *Network Engineering*MikroTik RouterOS * *573-276-2879 *ImageStream * *http://www.butchevans.com/ *StarOS and MORE * *http://blog.butchevans.com/*Wired or wireless Networks* *Mikrotik Certified Consultant *Professional Technical Trainer* WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] Rapid Link Press Release
http://www.wispa.org/?p=258 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Topic change - Trade AssociationWas:Report:FCCtoPunishComcast Over Web Blocking
I have a better idea. Explain how you do that. insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Forrest W Christian [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 5:50 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Topic change - Trade AssociationWas:Report:FCCtoPunishComcast Over Web Blocking [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No matter how many times you try to change the subject to you need to help law enforcment, which has NEVER been the issue, it still fails to address the fact that no properly designed and operating wireless network can be CALEA compliant. Explain how your network is designed such that you can't go to an AP site and insert a packet sniffer and gather all of the internet traffic for a specific customer attached to that AP - excluding traffic between two customers on the same AP. That is all that is required for CALEA compliance, thanks to WISPA. -forrest WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Topic change - Trade AssociationWas:Report:FCCtoPunishComcast Over Web Blocking
Are you deliberately being obtuse? Or at least acting obtuse? Any competent network engineer is capable of inserting a packet sniffer at the AP site. Especially one who is capable of engineering a properly engineered network, as you obviously know so much about. Most of the time it involves a hub (or a managed switch capable of mirroring a port - but a dumb ethernet switch) placed between the AP and the rest of the network. If you are using the same physical hardware for the AP and the BH, you may need to separate these functions out into two separate pieces of hardware so you can sniff the traffic between them - but like I said, any decent network engineer should be able to understand the concepts of how to make this work. -forrest [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have a better idea. Explain how you do that. insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Forrest W Christian [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 5:50 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Topic change - Trade AssociationWas:Report:FCCtoPunishComcast Over Web Blocking [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No matter how many times you try to change the subject to you need to help law enforcment, which has NEVER been the issue, it still fails to address the fact that no properly designed and operating wireless network can be CALEA compliant. Explain how your network is designed such that you can't go to an AP site and insert a packet sniffer and gather all of the internet traffic for a specific customer attached to that AP - excluding traffic between two customers on the same AP. That is all that is required for CALEA compliance, thanks to WISPA. -forrest WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Topic change - Trade AssociationWas:Report:FCCtoPunishComcast Over Web Blocking
On Sun, 13 Jul 2008, Forrest W Christian wrote: but like I said, any decent network engineer should be able to understand the concepts of how to make this work. I think you nailed it right there! ;-) -- *Butch Evans*Professional Network Consultation * *Network Engineering*MikroTik RouterOS * *573-276-2879 *ImageStream * *http://www.butchevans.com/ *StarOS and MORE * *http://blog.butchevans.com/*Wired or wireless Networks* *Mikrotik Certified Consultant *Professional Technical Trainer* WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
