Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas
I could see it ptp George. But not omni to cpe... Unless a guy is using 200mw or higher radio cards. In which case, you did use an amp, it's just built into the radio eh? MY problem with high power radios is that they don't add any rec. gain like an external amp will. We're switching out our amps to three sector solutions when the customer volumes go high enough. marlon - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 8:22 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas I'm not so sure about that Marlon. I put in a 10 mile link the other day just using a pair of cm9's and rootennas. xxx x6:0e x5.688 -74 -66 48 54 C Of course this was A. I try to keep the long shots 5 gig and the short ones 2 gig. The way I figure it, there's a lot of 2 gig out there in all shapes and flavors and when you go 10 - 15 miles it's inevidable that there will be some interference. If we are talking the middle of nowhere, you can easily do 15 miles with cm9 G, no amps. Mark has issues with G because he is using mostly V2 G, I believe. V2 G is a diferent animal, a diferent driver than V3. V3 is the best to date. Marlon K. Schafer wrote: with sites that have 10 users in a 15 mile RADIUS, you have to have an amp marlon - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 11:51 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas Amps? The success of G is less noise and less power. IMHO Never looked for a G amp or tried a G high powered card. Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Has anyone found an amp that'll work CORRECTLY with g AND b? marlon - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 11:21 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas Nothing scientific Mac, but I think lots of G ap's work better than lots of B ap's. Seems when I've seen high powered B ap's in the mix there can be issues. Where as when I see only low powered G things still work. The area I cover is fairly small, so i'm getting densly built out with omni's and sectors all over the place. Mac Dearman wrote: How are y'all running G in so many places? I would love to implement G, but I have so many towers sectored out and then we have so many clients running wireless routers close to the CPE that I feel like there would be trouble in Paradise here!! Are any of you running G on anything but an Omni antenna? (Multiple antennas on one tower?) Mac -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 12:30 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas Totally agree. A bad G link will still give as good as a GOOD B link. G will give 5 mbps even when it is close to not connecting and B requires superb signals to get 5 mbps. Lonnie On 2/4/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have quite abit of G out there. All the clients and ap's I install today are G. 60's is great, 70's work just fine too. 60's get top performance, 70' is still a great very fast connection and even low 80's beat B. B stands for Bad G stands for Good Marlon K. Schafer wrote: It's not about antenna size. It's about signal levels. Most g radios need -60ish signal levels to work well. Use the antennas that you need to make it work right. Find the sensitivity levels of the product you are using, run the calcs, and compute a 10 dB or so fade margin. laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 12:38 PM Subject: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas I wanted to get some feedback from the List. Typically, what Dbi gain antennas are you desiring for OFDM short Near-LOS or Mid-range CPE links? Is 18 dbi enough? I'm well aware that 18dbi will not be good for many applications (long range or noisy), but what percentage of CPE installtions would it be good for? Could 75% of the CPE installs be acheived with 18dbi? I personally, would pick a 21-23db antenna as a preferred choice, but PacWireless Rootennas are 19dbi, and often used with 13-15 dbm CM9 cards. The beamwidth of 18dbi ( 20-30 degrees) is pretty good for interference resilience and OFDM maximized, and if more gain was needed it could be accommodated with higher power radios such Teletronic's 18dbm Atheros cards or Ubiquiti's SR5 18-26db cards. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA
Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas
It's not quite so easy to forklift out entire customer bases when there are hundreds of cpe out there. 50 of them? Paying top dollar? No problem. A hobby wisp, that's not expected to feed a problem. No problem. There are some great new toys out there. We build our new wpops with as many of them as we can. The most important person in our network though is the customer, they are still quite happy with what they get from their b radios. marlon - Original Message - From: Lonnie Nunweiler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 8:46 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas I believe I said we use reduced X2 cloaking for reduced RF spectrum usage, which you do not use because you have older gear or software that does not support it. You even agreed that reduced bandwidth works but that you chose not to use it. G mode does not have to play nice with B gear and that is why the newer drivers have selections for b only, b/g mixed or g only, so you cannot kill a G system with a single B client. If you simply replace that B client with a modern system you'll not have the troubles you do now. In my role of supporting people, I spend the bulk of my time dealing with people trying to make older B only systems work. They have reached the end of life simply due to the amount of B mode use out there. X2 cloaking extends the life of 2.4 GHz and in many cases is simply a software upgrade to get that new capability. It could also require an Atheros card to replace a prism or Orinoco and in more than a few cases it will require outright replacement of the entire system. You can't make a half hearted attempt at doing this. It is all or nothing. Try G mode with X2 cloaking and move over more and more big users to it. They will be happy and you will spend less time doing tech support. Even in a quiet environment X2 cloaking is still the way to go. Having double the number of non overlapping channels means much more spectrum to play with. X2 cloaking gives slightly higher power output, better receive sensitivity and higher digital processing conversion gain due to the reduced number OFDM RF carriers. It is superior. Simple. I do understand why people don't want to hear that. They have been operating on the basis that they were doing the right thing and they were making money, so they had it right. In reality they have been duped by the manufacturers who could not figure out how to do it right, or who made more money flogging last gen technology. So don't get mad at me, get mad at the guys who sold you your current B only client gear. They are the ones who mislead you. I'm just the messenger and the guy with a better system. You want what I have but you are angry that your current gear does not do it. I am on one location that has 7 other Access Points all beaming to the same town site. Nothing works if we use standard 20 MHz channels. X2 cloaking works on pretty much any channel I wish to use and I use 4 of those, so the total is 11 radios in 2.4 GHz from that site and all going to the same general location. My stuff works and I think their stuff works because we are just noise to them, and the whole concept of spread spectrum is not being bothered by noise. This is why I said B is dead and G is the new thing, simply because of the cloaking ability. If more people switched to cloaking then even the standard stuff would be better. This is sort of like the way 900 MHz is rebounding because nobody is using it anymore, plus the new radios and drivers can have 4 channels of 5 MHz RF spectrum. That 5 MHz can deliver a solid 6.5 mbps and up to 12 mbps with compression kicking in. Lonnie On 2/4/07, wispa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 4 Feb 2007 11:59:18 -0800, Lonnie Nunweiler wrote I know this goes farther than the B versus G debate that was started, but the key thing in being able to do this is the cloaking with its reduced RF spectrum use. A B mode AP cannot do cloaking, nor can your AP do it if the AP is not an Atheros with a driver that properly supports the ability. It must be, because running your gear, I cannot get G mode to work acceptably AT ALL. In my area, every channel has SOME noise on it. Even with signal levels in the low '60's, I could never achieve better than 350 to 400 KB / sec throughput for a DEPLOYED AP and client, and B mode could hit 1400 KB/sec using compressible data, about 650-700 wihtout compression. Narrowing channels appears to kill the G characteristic of waiting for completely clear air before it will transmit. Without cloaking, a nearly idle access point in G mode with a G client, will have varying 1 to 400 ms pings as it waits for clear air to transmit in. Switching to B mode gives you rock solid 1 to 7 ms pings on an active AP with a number of clients. B is dead and is holding the Industry back. If you use B mode then you NEED 400 mW radios because
Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas
I won't join into the arguement of B versus G and Amp versus no amp, but I will say I got three links working last week, using Cloaking, that were not able to be made work without Cloaking ability. When I can make a software parameter change and go from bad link to good link, thats something that can not be ignored. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Lonnie Nunweiler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 12:07 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas No you don't. wpci1: atheros100 -73dbm -96dbm 23 2442 sta,U1,x2 00:80:48:39:8e:42 war-platform ~ starutil 10.10.251.1 password -rx rx rate: 1220 KB/sec (Press Ctrl-C to exit) war-platform ~ war-platform ~ traceroute -n 10.10.251.1 traceroute to 10.10.251.1 (10.10.251.1), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets 1 10.10.67.1 5.532 ms 10.319 ms 4.523 ms 2 10.10.12.5 6.805 ms 11.779 ms 4.623 ms 3 10.10.227.1 5.018 ms 6.86 ms 5.174 ms 4 10.10.226.254 5.307 ms 7.747 ms 5.948 ms 5 10.10.251.1 8.279 ms 12.21 ms 5.814 ms This is the client at 13 miles in X2 cloaking. The AP is a 16 dB 60 degree sector and the client is a 24 dB grid. If this were an AP in the middle I could just as easily use a 15 dB omni and achieve almost identical results. Both units have a Compex WLM-54SuperG radio. No high power, no amplifiers. I don't need it and neither do you. An amplifier adds noise and worse, it increases the time to transition from tx to rx, which requires that you use long preamble which slows performance down. The worst thing it adds is signal, which you do not need and which messes up areas outside your coverage. You have been using amps for so long you just believe you always have to use them. A lot of companies have made a lot of money selling unnecessary amplifiers and they prey on the guys who do not know any better. That is fine normally and you would just laugh at the guy for not knowing better, but when that guy is in the same area as you are trying to serve, then it is not funny. Lonnie On 2/4/07, Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: with sites that have 10 users in a 15 mile RADIUS, you have to have an amp marlon - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 11:51 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas Amps? The success of G is less noise and less power. IMHO Never looked for a G amp or tried a G high powered card. Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Has anyone found an amp that'll work CORRECTLY with g AND b? marlon - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 11:21 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas Nothing scientific Mac, but I think lots of G ap's work better than lots of B ap's. Seems when I've seen high powered B ap's in the mix there can be issues. Where as when I see only low powered G things still work. The area I cover is fairly small, so i'm getting densly built out with omni's and sectors all over the place. Mac Dearman wrote: How are y'all running G in so many places? I would love to implement G, but I have so many towers sectored out and then we have so many clients running wireless routers close to the CPE that I feel like there would be trouble in Paradise here!! Are any of you running G on anything but an Omni antenna? (Multiple antennas on one tower?) Mac -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 12:30 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas Totally agree. A bad G link will still give as good as a GOOD B link. G will give 5 mbps even when it is close to not connecting and B requires superb signals to get 5 mbps. Lonnie On 2/4/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have quite abit of G out there. All the clients and ap's I install today are G. 60's is great, 70's work just fine too. 60's get top performance, 70' is still a great very fast connection and even low 80's beat B. B stands for Bad G stands for Good Marlon K. Schafer wrote: It's not about antenna size. It's about signal levels. Most g radios need -60ish signal levels to work well. Use the antennas that you need to make it work right. Find the sensitivity levels of the product you are using, run the calcs, and compute a 10 dB or so fade margin. laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 12:38 PM Subject: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas I wanted to get some feedback from the List. Typically, what Dbi gain
Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas
Forgive my ignorance, but is this 'cloaking' you speak of, a feature of 802.11G, or is it exclusively starOS, or can I find in in Mikrotik as well?? On 2/5/07, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I won't join into the arguement of B versus G and Amp versus no amp, but I will say I got three links working last week, using Cloaking, that were not able to be made work without Cloaking ability. When I can make a software parameter change and go from bad link to good link, thats something that can not be ignored. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Lonnie Nunweiler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 12:07 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas No you don't. wpci1: atheros100 -73dbm -96dbm 23 2442 sta,U1,x2 00:80:48:39:8e:42 war-platform ~ starutil 10.10.251.1 password -rx rx rate: 1220 KB/sec (Press Ctrl-C to exit) war-platform ~ war-platform ~ traceroute -n 10.10.251.1 traceroute to 10.10.251.1 (10.10.251.1), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets 1 10.10.67.1 5.532 ms 10.319 ms 4.523 ms 2 10.10.12.5 6.805 ms 11.779 ms 4.623 ms 3 10.10.227.1 5.018 ms 6.86 ms 5.174 ms 4 10.10.226.254 5.307 ms 7.747 ms 5.948 ms 5 10.10.251.1 8.279 ms 12.21 ms 5.814 ms This is the client at 13 miles in X2 cloaking. The AP is a 16 dB 60 degree sector and the client is a 24 dB grid. If this were an AP in the middle I could just as easily use a 15 dB omni and achieve almost identical results. Both units have a Compex WLM-54SuperG radio. No high power, no amplifiers. I don't need it and neither do you. An amplifier adds noise and worse, it increases the time to transition from tx to rx, which requires that you use long preamble which slows performance down. The worst thing it adds is signal, which you do not need and which messes up areas outside your coverage. You have been using amps for so long you just believe you always have to use them. A lot of companies have made a lot of money selling unnecessary amplifiers and they prey on the guys who do not know any better. That is fine normally and you would just laugh at the guy for not knowing better, but when that guy is in the same area as you are trying to serve, then it is not funny. Lonnie On 2/4/07, Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: with sites that have 10 users in a 15 mile RADIUS, you have to have an amp marlon - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 11:51 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas Amps? The success of G is less noise and less power. IMHO Never looked for a G amp or tried a G high powered card. Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Has anyone found an amp that'll work CORRECTLY with g AND b? marlon - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 11:21 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas Nothing scientific Mac, but I think lots of G ap's work better than lots of B ap's. Seems when I've seen high powered B ap's in the mix there can be issues. Where as when I see only low powered G things still work. The area I cover is fairly small, so i'm getting densly built out with omni's and sectors all over the place. Mac Dearman wrote: How are y'all running G in so many places? I would love to implement G, but I have so many towers sectored out and then we have so many clients running wireless routers close to the CPE that I feel like there would be trouble in Paradise here!! Are any of you running G on anything but an Omni antenna? (Multiple antennas on one tower?) Mac -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 12:30 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas Totally agree. A bad G link will still give as good as a GOOD B link. G will give 5 mbps even when it is close to not connecting and B requires superb signals to get 5 mbps. Lonnie On 2/4/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have quite abit of G out there. All the clients and ap's I install today are G. 60's is great, 70's work just fine too. 60's get top performance, 70' is still a great very fast connection and even low 80's beat B. B stands for Bad G stands for Good Marlon K. Schafer wrote: It's not about antenna size. It's about signal levels. Most g radios need -60ish signal levels to work well. Use the antennas that you need to make it work right. Find the sensitivity levels of the product you are using, run the calcs, and compute a 10 dB or so fade
Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas
Our stategy has been to use high quality AP sector antennas with really good F/B ratio. Cutting out noise is equivellent to adding gain. Not that I'm against hipower cards, I'm just saying so many people forget about F/B radio in their antenna choices and that Noise is accumulative from 360 degrees. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 2:51 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas Amps? The success of G is less noise and less power. IMHO Never looked for a G amp or tried a G high powered card. Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Has anyone found an amp that'll work CORRECTLY with g AND b? marlon - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 11:21 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas Nothing scientific Mac, but I think lots of G ap's work better than lots of B ap's. Seems when I've seen high powered B ap's in the mix there can be issues. Where as when I see only low powered G things still work. The area I cover is fairly small, so i'm getting densly built out with omni's and sectors all over the place. Mac Dearman wrote: How are y'all running G in so many places? I would love to implement G, but I have so many towers sectored out and then we have so many clients running wireless routers close to the CPE that I feel like there would be trouble in Paradise here!! Are any of you running G on anything but an Omni antenna? (Multiple antennas on one tower?) Mac -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 12:30 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas Totally agree. A bad G link will still give as good as a GOOD B link. G will give 5 mbps even when it is close to not connecting and B requires superb signals to get 5 mbps. Lonnie On 2/4/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have quite abit of G out there. All the clients and ap's I install today are G. 60's is great, 70's work just fine too. 60's get top performance, 70' is still a great very fast connection and even low 80's beat B. B stands for Bad G stands for Good Marlon K. Schafer wrote: It's not about antenna size. It's about signal levels. Most g radios need -60ish signal levels to work well. Use the antennas that you need to make it work right. Find the sensitivity levels of the product you are using, run the calcs, and compute a 10 dB or so fade margin. laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 12:38 PM Subject: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas I wanted to get some feedback from the List. Typically, what Dbi gain antennas are you desiring for OFDM short Near-LOS or Mid-range CPE links? Is 18 dbi enough? I'm well aware that 18dbi will not be good for many applications (long range or noisy), but what percentage of CPE installtions would it be good for? Could 75% of the CPE installs be acheived with 18dbi? I personally, would pick a 21-23db antenna as a preferred choice, but PacWireless Rootennas are 19dbi, and often used with 13-15 dbm CM9 cards. The beamwidth of 18dbi ( 20-30 degrees) is pretty good for interference resilience and OFDM maximized, and if more gain was needed it could be accommodated with higher power radios such Teletronic's 18dbm Atheros cards or Ubiquiti's SR5 18-26db cards. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas
If I put my money behind the bet I'd say the RFLinx amps would likely be the winner. We've used their B/G OEM amp successfully. I do not have any real specs to back that opinion up, as I rarely ever use an AMP on the AP side, as it prevents using a high gain sector antenna based on FCC regs. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 2:42 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas Has anyone found an amp that'll work CORRECTLY with g AND b? marlon - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 11:21 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas Nothing scientific Mac, but I think lots of G ap's work better than lots of B ap's. Seems when I've seen high powered B ap's in the mix there can be issues. Where as when I see only low powered G things still work. The area I cover is fairly small, so i'm getting densly built out with omni's and sectors all over the place. Mac Dearman wrote: How are y'all running G in so many places? I would love to implement G, but I have so many towers sectored out and then we have so many clients running wireless routers close to the CPE that I feel like there would be trouble in Paradise here!! Are any of you running G on anything but an Omni antenna? (Multiple antennas on one tower?) Mac -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 12:30 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas Totally agree. A bad G link will still give as good as a GOOD B link. G will give 5 mbps even when it is close to not connecting and B requires superb signals to get 5 mbps. Lonnie On 2/4/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have quite abit of G out there. All the clients and ap's I install today are G. 60's is great, 70's work just fine too. 60's get top performance, 70' is still a great very fast connection and even low 80's beat B. B stands for Bad G stands for Good Marlon K. Schafer wrote: It's not about antenna size. It's about signal levels. Most g radios need -60ish signal levels to work well. Use the antennas that you need to make it work right. Find the sensitivity levels of the product you are using, run the calcs, and compute a 10 dB or so fade margin. laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 12:38 PM Subject: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas I wanted to get some feedback from the List. Typically, what Dbi gain antennas are you desiring for OFDM short Near-LOS or Mid-range CPE links? Is 18 dbi enough? I'm well aware that 18dbi will not be good for many applications (long range or noisy), but what percentage of CPE installtions would it be good for? Could 75% of the CPE installs be acheived with 18dbi? I personally, would pick a 21-23db antenna as a preferred choice, but PacWireless Rootennas are 19dbi, and often used with 13-15 dbm CM9 cards. The beamwidth of 18dbi ( 20-30 degrees) is pretty good for interference resilience and OFDM maximized, and if more gain was needed it could be accommodated with higher power radios such Teletronic's 18dbm Atheros cards or Ubiquiti's SR5 18-26db cards. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas
'Cloaking' is the term used by the StarOS to refer to the functionality that allows for changing channel width from 20Mhz to 10Mhz or 5Mhz. According to http://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php?p=30343sid=d1e41e16905346726003d1f2 b84d7ea2 Mikrotik also has this functionality as of version 2.9.12 Alvarion VL radios also have this ability. However my current understanding is that this functionality may not fully interoperate with another mfg.'s equipment. Faisal Imtiaz SnappyDSL.net -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of rabbtux rabbtux Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 2:37 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas Forgive my ignorance, but is this 'cloaking' you speak of, a feature of 802.11G, or is it exclusively starOS, or can I find in in Mikrotik as well?? On 2/5/07, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I won't join into the arguement of B versus G and Amp versus no amp, but I will say I got three links working last week, using Cloaking, that were not able to be made work without Cloaking ability. When I can make a software parameter change and go from bad link to good link, thats something that can not be ignored. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Lonnie Nunweiler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 12:07 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas No you don't. wpci1: atheros100 -73dbm -96dbm 23 2442 sta,U1,x2 00:80:48:39:8e:42 war-platform ~ starutil 10.10.251.1 password -rx rx rate: 1220 KB/sec (Press Ctrl-C to exit) war-platform ~ war-platform ~ traceroute -n 10.10.251.1 traceroute to 10.10.251.1 (10.10.251.1), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets 1 10.10.67.1 5.532 ms 10.319 ms 4.523 ms 2 10.10.12.5 6.805 ms 11.779 ms 4.623 ms 3 10.10.227.1 5.018 ms 6.86 ms 5.174 ms 4 10.10.226.254 5.307 ms 7.747 ms 5.948 ms 5 10.10.251.1 8.279 ms 12.21 ms 5.814 ms This is the client at 13 miles in X2 cloaking. The AP is a 16 dB 60 degree sector and the client is a 24 dB grid. If this were an AP in the middle I could just as easily use a 15 dB omni and achieve almost identical results. Both units have a Compex WLM-54SuperG radio. No high power, no amplifiers. I don't need it and neither do you. An amplifier adds noise and worse, it increases the time to transition from tx to rx, which requires that you use long preamble which slows performance down. The worst thing it adds is signal, which you do not need and which messes up areas outside your coverage. You have been using amps for so long you just believe you always have to use them. A lot of companies have made a lot of money selling unnecessary amplifiers and they prey on the guys who do not know any better. That is fine normally and you would just laugh at the guy for not knowing better, but when that guy is in the same area as you are trying to serve, then it is not funny. Lonnie On 2/4/07, Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: with sites that have 10 users in a 15 mile RADIUS, you have to have an amp marlon - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 11:51 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas Amps? The success of G is less noise and less power. IMHO Never looked for a G amp or tried a G high powered card. Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Has anyone found an amp that'll work CORRECTLY with g AND b? marlon - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 11:21 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas Nothing scientific Mac, but I think lots of G ap's work better than lots of B ap's. Seems when I've seen high powered B ap's in the mix there can be issues. Where as when I see only low powered G things still work. The area I cover is fairly small, so i'm getting densly built out with omni's and sectors all over the place. Mac Dearman wrote: How are y'all running G in so many places? I would love to implement G, but I have so many towers sectored out and then we have so many clients running wireless routers close to the CPE that I feel like there would be trouble in Paradise here!! Are any of you running G on anything but an Omni antenna? (Multiple antennas on one tower?) Mac -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 12:30 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas Totally
Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas
This thread has changed off its original intent. In case anyone was wondering why I started the thread A top quality 18dbi Dual Polarity antenna enclosure (5.1G-5.8G) is about to hit the market for a reasonable cost (near rootenna costs). I was trying to get a feel for how popular they will be in that configuration. The question is, What percentage of one's installs could be obtained with an 18dbi CPE enclosure? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 11:12 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas It's not about antenna size. It's about signal levels. Most g radios need -60ish signal levels to work well. Use the antennas that you need to make it work right. Find the sensitivity levels of the product you are using, run the calcs, and compute a 10 dB or so fade margin. laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 12:38 PM Subject: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas I wanted to get some feedback from the List. Typically, what Dbi gain antennas are you desiring for OFDM short Near-LOS or Mid-range CPE links? Is 18 dbi enough? I'm well aware that 18dbi will not be good for many applications (long range or noisy), but what percentage of CPE installtions would it be good for? Could 75% of the CPE installs be acheived with 18dbi? I personally, would pick a 21-23db antenna as a preferred choice, but PacWireless Rootennas are 19dbi, and often used with 13-15 dbm CM9 cards. The beamwidth of 18dbi ( 20-30 degrees) is pretty good for interference resilience and OFDM maximized, and if more gain was needed it could be accommodated with higher power radios such Teletronic's 18dbm Atheros cards or Ubiquiti's SR5 18-26db cards. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas
So what's the answer Lonnie? Does Star OS cloaking do anything proprietary, or is it strictly unlocking the Atheros's ability to utilize smaller channels, and likely able to work with any wifi vendor that decides to unlock this Atheros feature? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: rabbtux rabbtux [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 2:37 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas Forgive my ignorance, but is this 'cloaking' you speak of, a feature of 802.11G, or is it exclusively starOS, or can I find in in Mikrotik as well?? On 2/5/07, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I won't join into the arguement of B versus G and Amp versus no amp, but I will say I got three links working last week, using Cloaking, that were not able to be made work without Cloaking ability. When I can make a software parameter change and go from bad link to good link, thats something that can not be ignored. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Lonnie Nunweiler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 12:07 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas No you don't. wpci1: atheros100 -73dbm -96dbm 23 2442 sta,U1,x2 00:80:48:39:8e:42 war-platform ~ starutil 10.10.251.1 password -rx rx rate: 1220 KB/sec (Press Ctrl-C to exit) war-platform ~ war-platform ~ traceroute -n 10.10.251.1 traceroute to 10.10.251.1 (10.10.251.1), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets 1 10.10.67.1 5.532 ms 10.319 ms 4.523 ms 2 10.10.12.5 6.805 ms 11.779 ms 4.623 ms 3 10.10.227.1 5.018 ms 6.86 ms 5.174 ms 4 10.10.226.254 5.307 ms 7.747 ms 5.948 ms 5 10.10.251.1 8.279 ms 12.21 ms 5.814 ms This is the client at 13 miles in X2 cloaking. The AP is a 16 dB 60 degree sector and the client is a 24 dB grid. If this were an AP in the middle I could just as easily use a 15 dB omni and achieve almost identical results. Both units have a Compex WLM-54SuperG radio. No high power, no amplifiers. I don't need it and neither do you. An amplifier adds noise and worse, it increases the time to transition from tx to rx, which requires that you use long preamble which slows performance down. The worst thing it adds is signal, which you do not need and which messes up areas outside your coverage. You have been using amps for so long you just believe you always have to use them. A lot of companies have made a lot of money selling unnecessary amplifiers and they prey on the guys who do not know any better. That is fine normally and you would just laugh at the guy for not knowing better, but when that guy is in the same area as you are trying to serve, then it is not funny. Lonnie On 2/4/07, Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: with sites that have 10 users in a 15 mile RADIUS, you have to have an amp marlon - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 11:51 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas Amps? The success of G is less noise and less power. IMHO Never looked for a G amp or tried a G high powered card. Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Has anyone found an amp that'll work CORRECTLY with g AND b? marlon - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 11:21 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas Nothing scientific Mac, but I think lots of G ap's work better than lots of B ap's. Seems when I've seen high powered B ap's in the mix there can be issues. Where as when I see only low powered G things still work. The area I cover is fairly small, so i'm getting densly built out with omni's and sectors all over the place. Mac Dearman wrote: How are y'all running G in so many places? I would love to implement G, but I have so many towers sectored out and then we have so many clients running wireless routers close to the CPE that I feel like there would be trouble in Paradise here!! Are any of you running G on anything but an Omni antenna? (Multiple antennas on one tower?) Mac -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 12:30 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas Totally agree. A bad G link will still give as good as a GOOD B link. G will give 5 mbps even when it is close to not connecting and B requires superb signals to get 5 mbps. Lonnie On 2/4/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have quite abit of G out there. All the clients
Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas
It's not about antenna size. It's about signal levels. Most g radios need -60ish signal levels to work well. Use the antennas that you need to make it work right. Find the sensitivity levels of the product you are using, run the calcs, and compute a 10 dB or so fade margin. laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 12:38 PM Subject: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas I wanted to get some feedback from the List. Typically, what Dbi gain antennas are you desiring for OFDM short Near-LOS or Mid-range CPE links? Is 18 dbi enough? I'm well aware that 18dbi will not be good for many applications (long range or noisy), but what percentage of CPE installtions would it be good for? Could 75% of the CPE installs be acheived with 18dbi? I personally, would pick a 21-23db antenna as a preferred choice, but PacWireless Rootennas are 19dbi, and often used with 13-15 dbm CM9 cards. The beamwidth of 18dbi ( 20-30 degrees) is pretty good for interference resilience and OFDM maximized, and if more gain was needed it could be accommodated with higher power radios such Teletronic's 18dbm Atheros cards or Ubiquiti's SR5 18-26db cards. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas
Mark, What ap antennas are you using there? marlon - Original Message - From: wispa [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 2:58 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas On Sat, 3 Feb 2007 15:38:04 -0500, Tom DeReggi wrote I wanted to get some feedback from the List. Typically, what Dbi gain antennas are you desiring for OFDM short Near-LOS or Mid-range CPE links? Is 18 dbi enough? I'm well aware that 18dbi will not be good for many applications (long range or noisy), but what percentage of CPE installtions would it be good for? Could 75% of the CPE installs be acheived with 18dbi? I personally, would pick a 21-23db antenna as a preferred choice, but PacWireless Rootennas are 19dbi, and often used with 13-15 dbm CM9 cards. The beamwidth of 18dbi ( 20-30 degrees) is pretty good for interference resilience and OFDM maximized, and if more gain was needed it could be accommodated with higher power radios such Teletronic's 18dbm Atheros cards or Ubiquiti's SR5 18-26db cards. Ok, where do I start... I can't tell that antenna design matters a bit whether you're using OFDM or QAM or... ??? Seems the radio waves propagate the same. I'm using 18 db grids out to well past 20 miles, with no amps and no high powered radios (using CM-9's). I have ONE client with a 24 db grid at 17 miles or so, and he's got like a -60's RSSI. Doesn't even need it, but it was mounted to his house when I hooked him up. So I saved myself 40 bucks and used his. I have one client btween 29 and 30 miles using a 16 db Vagi, from Pacwireless. Again, no high powered cards, and he's got around 12 to 15 db SNR ( -80 to -83). I was going to use a 19 db grid, but my antenna was defective, and that was the only other thing in the van. Star-OS access point, Compex WP54AG client board, running Ikarus. I think our maximum throughput in 11b mode (won't work in G, sorry) was 350KB or so. The customer is a 2M client, and we can get 2M in a speed test any hour of the day or night. My expeirience with G mode (not ofdm specifically) is that much higher RSSI is required to work at all. I've seen OFDM clients work fine for 900 mhz at -85, so long as you weren't hoping to get past 1M throughput in a 5mhz wide channel. My first 40 clients were ALL 18 db grids, be they 1 mile or 23 miles. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ Mark Koskenmaki Neofast, Inc Broadband for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains 541-969-8200 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas
I have quite abit of G out there. All the clients and ap's I install today are G. 60's is great, 70's work just fine too. 60's get top performance, 70' is still a great very fast connection and even low 80's beat B. B stands for Bad G stands for Good Marlon K. Schafer wrote: It's not about antenna size. It's about signal levels. Most g radios need -60ish signal levels to work well. Use the antennas that you need to make it work right. Find the sensitivity levels of the product you are using, run the calcs, and compute a 10 dB or so fade margin. laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 12:38 PM Subject: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas I wanted to get some feedback from the List. Typically, what Dbi gain antennas are you desiring for OFDM short Near-LOS or Mid-range CPE links? Is 18 dbi enough? I'm well aware that 18dbi will not be good for many applications (long range or noisy), but what percentage of CPE installtions would it be good for? Could 75% of the CPE installs be acheived with 18dbi? I personally, would pick a 21-23db antenna as a preferred choice, but PacWireless Rootennas are 19dbi, and often used with 13-15 dbm CM9 cards. The beamwidth of 18dbi ( 20-30 degrees) is pretty good for interference resilience and OFDM maximized, and if more gain was needed it could be accommodated with higher power radios such Teletronic's 18dbm Atheros cards or Ubiquiti's SR5 18-26db cards. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas
I use pretty much all rootennas these days 5gig, 2 gig, and even 900 now. There is times when I may still need a grid, It just does not happen very often. I've got a bunch of them I just took down and I still would rather spend the money and use a rootenna type antenna. The way I figure it is, why mess with cabling and have that much more loss and that much more to go wrong, if you don't have to. I even use them for sector antennas. Wish Pac had a lower gain, higher beamwidth rootenna for ap use. Tom DeReggi wrote: I wanted to get some feedback from the List. Typically, what Dbi gain antennas are you desiring for OFDM short Near-LOS or Mid-range CPE links? Is 18 dbi enough? I'm well aware that 18dbi will not be good for many applications (long range or noisy), but what percentage of CPE installtions would it be good for? Could 75% of the CPE installs be acheived with 18dbi? I personally, would pick a 21-23db antenna as a preferred choice, but PacWireless Rootennas are 19dbi, and often used with 13-15 dbm CM9 cards. The beamwidth of 18dbi ( 20-30 degrees) is pretty good for interference resilience and OFDM maximized, and if more gain was needed it could be accommodated with higher power radios such Teletronic's 18dbm Atheros cards or Ubiquiti's SR5 18-26db cards. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas
Actually G mode works better than that. We have clients with -80 dB and they can pull a steady 10 mbps on a X2 cloaked channel (10 MHz of RF bandwidth). Even at -85 dB they can still pull 5 mbps and burst to 10 mbps. Of course these results are with Atheros cards. I have no idea about other brands of G mode cards. Lonnie On 2/4/07, Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's not about antenna size. It's about signal levels. Most g radios need -60ish signal levels to work well. Use the antennas that you need to make it work right. Find the sensitivity levels of the product you are using, run the calcs, and compute a 10 dB or so fade margin. laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 12:38 PM Subject: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas I wanted to get some feedback from the List. Typically, what Dbi gain antennas are you desiring for OFDM short Near-LOS or Mid-range CPE links? Is 18 dbi enough? I'm well aware that 18dbi will not be good for many applications (long range or noisy), but what percentage of CPE installtions would it be good for? Could 75% of the CPE installs be acheived with 18dbi? I personally, would pick a 21-23db antenna as a preferred choice, but PacWireless Rootennas are 19dbi, and often used with 13-15 dbm CM9 cards. The beamwidth of 18dbi ( 20-30 degrees) is pretty good for interference resilience and OFDM maximized, and if more gain was needed it could be accommodated with higher power radios such Teletronic's 18dbm Atheros cards or Ubiquiti's SR5 18-26db cards. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Lonnie Nunweiler Valemount Networks Corporation http://www.star-os.com/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas
Totally agree. A bad G link will still give as good as a GOOD B link. G will give 5 mbps even when it is close to not connecting and B requires superb signals to get 5 mbps. Lonnie On 2/4/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have quite abit of G out there. All the clients and ap's I install today are G. 60's is great, 70's work just fine too. 60's get top performance, 70' is still a great very fast connection and even low 80's beat B. B stands for Bad G stands for Good Marlon K. Schafer wrote: It's not about antenna size. It's about signal levels. Most g radios need -60ish signal levels to work well. Use the antennas that you need to make it work right. Find the sensitivity levels of the product you are using, run the calcs, and compute a 10 dB or so fade margin. laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 12:38 PM Subject: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas I wanted to get some feedback from the List. Typically, what Dbi gain antennas are you desiring for OFDM short Near-LOS or Mid-range CPE links? Is 18 dbi enough? I'm well aware that 18dbi will not be good for many applications (long range or noisy), but what percentage of CPE installtions would it be good for? Could 75% of the CPE installs be acheived with 18dbi? I personally, would pick a 21-23db antenna as a preferred choice, but PacWireless Rootennas are 19dbi, and often used with 13-15 dbm CM9 cards. The beamwidth of 18dbi ( 20-30 degrees) is pretty good for interference resilience and OFDM maximized, and if more gain was needed it could be accommodated with higher power radios such Teletronic's 18dbm Atheros cards or Ubiquiti's SR5 18-26db cards. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Lonnie Nunweiler Valemount Networks Corporation http://www.star-os.com/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas
How are y'all running G in so many places? I would love to implement G, but I have so many towers sectored out and then we have so many clients running wireless routers close to the CPE that I feel like there would be trouble in Paradise here!! Are any of you running G on anything but an Omni antenna? (Multiple antennas on one tower?) Mac -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 12:30 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas Totally agree. A bad G link will still give as good as a GOOD B link. G will give 5 mbps even when it is close to not connecting and B requires superb signals to get 5 mbps. Lonnie On 2/4/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have quite abit of G out there. All the clients and ap's I install today are G. 60's is great, 70's work just fine too. 60's get top performance, 70' is still a great very fast connection and even low 80's beat B. B stands for Bad G stands for Good Marlon K. Schafer wrote: It's not about antenna size. It's about signal levels. Most g radios need -60ish signal levels to work well. Use the antennas that you need to make it work right. Find the sensitivity levels of the product you are using, run the calcs, and compute a 10 dB or so fade margin. laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 12:38 PM Subject: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas I wanted to get some feedback from the List. Typically, what Dbi gain antennas are you desiring for OFDM short Near-LOS or Mid-range CPE links? Is 18 dbi enough? I'm well aware that 18dbi will not be good for many applications (long range or noisy), but what percentage of CPE installtions would it be good for? Could 75% of the CPE installs be acheived with 18dbi? I personally, would pick a 21-23db antenna as a preferred choice, but PacWireless Rootennas are 19dbi, and often used with 13-15 dbm CM9 cards. The beamwidth of 18dbi ( 20-30 degrees) is pretty good for interference resilience and OFDM maximized, and if more gain was needed it could be accommodated with higher power radios such Teletronic's 18dbm Atheros cards or Ubiquiti's SR5 18-26db cards. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Lonnie Nunweiler Valemount Networks Corporation http://www.star-os.com/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas
But George :-) answer my question: Are you running G mode on towers with multiple broadcasts? Like a tower with 3 120* sectors? Mac Dearman -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Rogato Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 1:22 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas Nothing scientific Mac, but I think lots of G ap's work better than lots of B ap's. Seems when I've seen high powered B ap's in the mix there can be issues. Where as when I see only low powered G things still work. The area I cover is fairly small, so i'm getting densly built out with omni's and sectors all over the place. Mac Dearman wrote: How are y'all running G in so many places? I would love to implement G, but I have so many towers sectored out and then we have so many clients running wireless routers close to the CPE that I feel like there would be trouble in Paradise here!! Are any of you running G on anything but an Omni antenna? (Multiple antennas on one tower?) Mac -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 12:30 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas Totally agree. A bad G link will still give as good as a GOOD B link. G will give 5 mbps even when it is close to not connecting and B requires superb signals to get 5 mbps. Lonnie On 2/4/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have quite abit of G out there. All the clients and ap's I install today are G. 60's is great, 70's work just fine too. 60's get top performance, 70' is still a great very fast connection and even low 80's beat B. B stands for Bad G stands for Good Marlon K. Schafer wrote: It's not about antenna size. It's about signal levels. Most g radios need -60ish signal levels to work well. Use the antennas that you need to make it work right. Find the sensitivity levels of the product you are using, run the calcs, and compute a 10 dB or so fade margin. laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 12:38 PM Subject: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas I wanted to get some feedback from the List. Typically, what Dbi gain antennas are you desiring for OFDM short Near-LOS or Mid-range CPE links? Is 18 dbi enough? I'm well aware that 18dbi will not be good for many applications (long range or noisy), but what percentage of CPE installtions would it be good for? Could 75% of the CPE installs be acheived with 18dbi? I personally, would pick a 21-23db antenna as a preferred choice, but PacWireless Rootennas are 19dbi, and often used with 13-15 dbm CM9 cards. The beamwidth of 18dbi ( 20-30 degrees) is pretty good for interference resilience and OFDM maximized, and if more gain was needed it could be accommodated with higher power radios such Teletronic's 18dbm Atheros cards or Ubiquiti's SR5 18-26db cards. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas
Has anyone found an amp that'll work CORRECTLY with g AND b? marlon - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 11:21 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas Nothing scientific Mac, but I think lots of G ap's work better than lots of B ap's. Seems when I've seen high powered B ap's in the mix there can be issues. Where as when I see only low powered G things still work. The area I cover is fairly small, so i'm getting densly built out with omni's and sectors all over the place. Mac Dearman wrote: How are y'all running G in so many places? I would love to implement G, but I have so many towers sectored out and then we have so many clients running wireless routers close to the CPE that I feel like there would be trouble in Paradise here!! Are any of you running G on anything but an Omni antenna? (Multiple antennas on one tower?) Mac -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 12:30 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas Totally agree. A bad G link will still give as good as a GOOD B link. G will give 5 mbps even when it is close to not connecting and B requires superb signals to get 5 mbps. Lonnie On 2/4/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have quite abit of G out there. All the clients and ap's I install today are G. 60's is great, 70's work just fine too. 60's get top performance, 70' is still a great very fast connection and even low 80's beat B. B stands for Bad G stands for Good Marlon K. Schafer wrote: It's not about antenna size. It's about signal levels. Most g radios need -60ish signal levels to work well. Use the antennas that you need to make it work right. Find the sensitivity levels of the product you are using, run the calcs, and compute a 10 dB or so fade margin. laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 12:38 PM Subject: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas I wanted to get some feedback from the List. Typically, what Dbi gain antennas are you desiring for OFDM short Near-LOS or Mid-range CPE links? Is 18 dbi enough? I'm well aware that 18dbi will not be good for many applications (long range or noisy), but what percentage of CPE installtions would it be good for? Could 75% of the CPE installs be acheived with 18dbi? I personally, would pick a 21-23db antenna as a preferred choice, but PacWireless Rootennas are 19dbi, and often used with 13-15 dbm CM9 cards. The beamwidth of 18dbi ( 20-30 degrees) is pretty good for interference resilience and OFDM maximized, and if more gain was needed it could be accommodated with higher power radios such Teletronic's 18dbm Atheros cards or Ubiquiti's SR5 18-26db cards. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas
Mac Dearman wrote: But George :-) answer my question: Are you running G mode on towers with multiple broadcasts? Like a tower with 3 120* sectors? My Original main tower is 3 sectors of B, too many B clients to swap an AP over and find out at that busy noisy site. Would be the ultimate answer to your question though. I'm slowly moving the clients of to G to do just this. All the other locations are small pops that have either 1 or 2 G ap's and are either fed with A or in some cases G. I have some pops that are cm9 G and 200mw B as ap's and no problem. I do however have many many G omni's that can see/hear each other and work fine. I am not using any cloaking, just straight 20MHz wifi channels. I also understand the concern and opinions of using omni's ;P George -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas
Amps? The success of G is less noise and less power. IMHO Never looked for a G amp or tried a G high powered card. Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Has anyone found an amp that'll work CORRECTLY with g AND b? marlon - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 11:21 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas Nothing scientific Mac, but I think lots of G ap's work better than lots of B ap's. Seems when I've seen high powered B ap's in the mix there can be issues. Where as when I see only low powered G things still work. The area I cover is fairly small, so i'm getting densly built out with omni's and sectors all over the place. Mac Dearman wrote: How are y'all running G in so many places? I would love to implement G, but I have so many towers sectored out and then we have so many clients running wireless routers close to the CPE that I feel like there would be trouble in Paradise here!! Are any of you running G on anything but an Omni antenna? (Multiple antennas on one tower?) Mac -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 12:30 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas Totally agree. A bad G link will still give as good as a GOOD B link. G will give 5 mbps even when it is close to not connecting and B requires superb signals to get 5 mbps. Lonnie On 2/4/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have quite abit of G out there. All the clients and ap's I install today are G. 60's is great, 70's work just fine too. 60's get top performance, 70' is still a great very fast connection and even low 80's beat B. B stands for Bad G stands for Good Marlon K. Schafer wrote: It's not about antenna size. It's about signal levels. Most g radios need -60ish signal levels to work well. Use the antennas that you need to make it work right. Find the sensitivity levels of the product you are using, run the calcs, and compute a 10 dB or so fade margin. laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 12:38 PM Subject: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas I wanted to get some feedback from the List. Typically, what Dbi gain antennas are you desiring for OFDM short Near-LOS or Mid-range CPE links? Is 18 dbi enough? I'm well aware that 18dbi will not be good for many applications (long range or noisy), but what percentage of CPE installtions would it be good for? Could 75% of the CPE installs be acheived with 18dbi? I personally, would pick a 21-23db antenna as a preferred choice, but PacWireless Rootennas are 19dbi, and often used with 13-15 dbm CM9 cards. The beamwidth of 18dbi ( 20-30 degrees) is pretty good for interference resilience and OFDM maximized, and if more gain was needed it could be accommodated with higher power radios such Teletronic's 18dbm Atheros cards or Ubiquiti's SR5 18-26db cards. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas
We run as many as 4 G mode with 16 dB 60 degree sectors. The AP uses WLM54SuperG Atheros radios with X2 cloaking so this means the 4 channels are not overlapping. We are in a valley and the AP sites are typically on the sides, so that we do not require coverage on the back side. Some of my towers use only 2 radios with 16 dB 60 degree sectors pointed straight down the valley and people from the back side can still get a usable -85 dB. We use the WLM54SuperG radios (from Compex) on the AP and client and we are very happy with the performance. The Client is using a 14 dB Rootenna for the case and antenna in one. Just drop the cat5 with POE to the user provided switch and it is online. For a microcell we use 5 GHz to feed the site with one CM9 radio and we then use a 15 dB omni for 2.4 GHz and we use the other two radios for 900 MHz and another 5 GHz feed to another site. Most of my subscribers can now see at least 3 and as many as 6 of my Access Points. This gives me an incredible ability to switch them if I need. This is Mesh, plain and simple. The ability to have multiple choices is what Mesh is all about. If the backbone is Mesh then all sites will have multiple paths to the Internet and a single failure merely has everyone move to another AP and Mesh Routing takes care of the move. I can pull the power plug on an AP and within 1 minute all users are automatically moved to another AP and are back surfing. I know this goes farther than the B versus G debate that was started, but the key thing in being able to do this is the cloaking with its reduced RF spectrum use. A B mode AP cannot do cloaking, nor can your AP do it if the AP is not an Atheros with a driver that properly supports the ability. B is dead and is holding the Industry back. If you use B mode then you NEED 400 mW radios because of the noise. If you use G mode and X2 cloaking then you need less than 100 mW and you'll have WAY better performance. Just to be sure about this point -- I am speaking from EXPERIENCE. This is not some plan I someday hope to try. It is what we use and is what a lot of others use as well. OFDM was invented as an improvement over previous modulation techniques. Why do people have such a hard time accepting that it actually works better? Is it because you have an investment in B only radios and realize you have to reinvest in G radios? It is sort of like the phone companies hanging onto their copper lines. Wireless started to cream them and now you are seeing that G is creaming B, so that the old established operators are in trouble. Lonnie On 2/4/07, Mac Dearman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How are y'all running G in so many places? I would love to implement G, but I have so many towers sectored out and then we have so many clients running wireless routers close to the CPE that I feel like there would be trouble in Paradise here!! Are any of you running G on anything but an Omni antenna? (Multiple antennas on one tower?) Mac -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 12:30 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas Totally agree. A bad G link will still give as good as a GOOD B link. G will give 5 mbps even when it is close to not connecting and B requires superb signals to get 5 mbps. Lonnie On 2/4/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have quite abit of G out there. All the clients and ap's I install today are G. 60's is great, 70's work just fine too. 60's get top performance, 70' is still a great very fast connection and even low 80's beat B. B stands for Bad G stands for Good Marlon K. Schafer wrote: It's not about antenna size. It's about signal levels. Most g radios need -60ish signal levels to work well. Use the antennas that you need to make it work right. Find the sensitivity levels of the product you are using, run the calcs, and compute a 10 dB or so fade margin. laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 12:38 PM Subject: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas I wanted to get some feedback from the List. Typically, what Dbi gain antennas are you desiring for OFDM short Near-LOS or Mid-range CPE links? Is 18 dbi enough? I'm well aware that 18dbi will not be good for many applications (long range or noisy), but what percentage of CPE installtions would it be good for? Could 75% of the CPE installs be acheived with 18dbi? I personally, would pick a 21-23db antenna as a preferred choice, but PacWireless Rootennas are 19dbi, and often used with 13-15 dbm CM9 cards. The beamwidth of 18dbi ( 20-30 degrees) is pretty good for interference resilience and OFDM maximized, and if more gain was needed it could be accommodated with higher power radios
Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas
The days of amplifiers are over. We cover more than 70 miles along our Valley. We build microcells for small pockets of users that are too far to reach with normal antennas or have trees or hills, etc. Blasting more power is the way we used to do it, remember? Attitudes have to change and the first one that needs to change is that amps are good. They are evil and cause nothing but grief for yourself and anybody else wanting to use the spectrum. Lonnie On 2/4/07, Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Has anyone found an amp that'll work CORRECTLY with g AND b? marlon - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 11:21 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas Nothing scientific Mac, but I think lots of G ap's work better than lots of B ap's. Seems when I've seen high powered B ap's in the mix there can be issues. Where as when I see only low powered G things still work. The area I cover is fairly small, so i'm getting densly built out with omni's and sectors all over the place. Mac Dearman wrote: How are y'all running G in so many places? I would love to implement G, but I have so many towers sectored out and then we have so many clients running wireless routers close to the CPE that I feel like there would be trouble in Paradise here!! Are any of you running G on anything but an Omni antenna? (Multiple antennas on one tower?) Mac -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 12:30 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas Totally agree. A bad G link will still give as good as a GOOD B link. G will give 5 mbps even when it is close to not connecting and B requires superb signals to get 5 mbps. Lonnie On 2/4/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have quite abit of G out there. All the clients and ap's I install today are G. 60's is great, 70's work just fine too. 60's get top performance, 70' is still a great very fast connection and even low 80's beat B. B stands for Bad G stands for Good Marlon K. Schafer wrote: It's not about antenna size. It's about signal levels. Most g radios need -60ish signal levels to work well. Use the antennas that you need to make it work right. Find the sensitivity levels of the product you are using, run the calcs, and compute a 10 dB or so fade margin. laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 12:38 PM Subject: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas I wanted to get some feedback from the List. Typically, what Dbi gain antennas are you desiring for OFDM short Near-LOS or Mid-range CPE links? Is 18 dbi enough? I'm well aware that 18dbi will not be good for many applications (long range or noisy), but what percentage of CPE installtions would it be good for? Could 75% of the CPE installs be acheived with 18dbi? I personally, would pick a 21-23db antenna as a preferred choice, but PacWireless Rootennas are 19dbi, and often used with 13-15 dbm CM9 cards. The beamwidth of 18dbi ( 20-30 degrees) is pretty good for interference resilience and OFDM maximized, and if more gain was needed it could be accommodated with higher power radios such Teletronic's 18dbm Atheros cards or Ubiquiti's SR5 18-26db cards. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Lonnie Nunweiler Valemount Networks Corporation http://www.star-os.com/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas
There is nothing wrong with an omni if the users are all around it. You get better signals with a sector but a microcell is the perfect place for an omni. The fact that your current sites can see each other is awesome and you are part way to achieving a Mesh. Lonnie On 2/4/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mac Dearman wrote: But George :-) answer my question: Are you running G mode on towers with multiple broadcasts? Like a tower with 3 120* sectors? My Original main tower is 3 sectors of B, too many B clients to swap an AP over and find out at that busy noisy site. Would be the ultimate answer to your question though. I'm slowly moving the clients of to G to do just this. All the other locations are small pops that have either 1 or 2 G ap's and are either fed with A or in some cases G. I have some pops that are cm9 G and 200mw B as ap's and no problem. I do however have many many G omni's that can see/hear each other and work fine. I am not using any cloaking, just straight 20MHz wifi channels. I also understand the concern and opinions of using omni's ;P George -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Lonnie Nunweiler Valemount Networks Corporation http://www.star-os.com/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas
Right on with the OFDM, I put a 5.5 mile A shot in the other day, that even with my binoculars, I can not see the water tank popping up above the tree line and I have: x1:xf xxx.94 99 -76 -72 48 48 C ** I would call that shot a Near LOS shot. Reason I don't cloak G is because I want the laptop connectivity option. I for see a day when I may offer a laptop service for a lower price. I've tried it early on, and it worked well. But for what I'm doing I won't cloak G. A is cloakable, but with reduced speed. Right now I want as much speed as possible. Low powered is key here. Every time we hear about or experience issues it's noise related. Why poison the spectrum? Lonnie Nunweiler wrote: We run as many as 4 G mode with 16 dB 60 degree sectors. The AP uses WLM54SuperG Atheros radios with X2 cloaking so this means the 4 channels are not overlapping. We are in a valley and the AP sites are typically on the sides, so that we do not require coverage on the back side. Some of my towers use only 2 radios with 16 dB 60 degree sectors pointed straight down the valley and people from the back side can still get a usable -85 dB. We use the WLM54SuperG radios (from Compex) on the AP and client and we are very happy with the performance. The Client is using a 14 dB Rootenna for the case and antenna in one. Just drop the cat5 with POE to the user provided switch and it is online. For a microcell we use 5 GHz to feed the site with one CM9 radio and we then use a 15 dB omni for 2.4 GHz and we use the other two radios for 900 MHz and another 5 GHz feed to another site. Most of my subscribers can now see at least 3 and as many as 6 of my Access Points. This gives me an incredible ability to switch them if I need. This is Mesh, plain and simple. The ability to have multiple choices is what Mesh is all about. If the backbone is Mesh then all sites will have multiple paths to the Internet and a single failure merely has everyone move to another AP and Mesh Routing takes care of the move. I can pull the power plug on an AP and within 1 minute all users are automatically moved to another AP and are back surfing. I know this goes farther than the B versus G debate that was started, but the key thing in being able to do this is the cloaking with its reduced RF spectrum use. A B mode AP cannot do cloaking, nor can your AP do it if the AP is not an Atheros with a driver that properly supports the ability. B is dead and is holding the Industry back. If you use B mode then you NEED 400 mW radios because of the noise. If you use G mode and X2 cloaking then you need less than 100 mW and you'll have WAY better performance. Just to be sure about this point -- I am speaking from EXPERIENCE. This is not some plan I someday hope to try. It is what we use and is what a lot of others use as well. OFDM was invented as an improvement over previous modulation techniques. Why do people have such a hard time accepting that it actually works better? Is it because you have an investment in B only radios and realize you have to reinvest in G radios? It is sort of like the phone companies hanging onto their copper lines. Wireless started to cream them and now you are seeing that G is creaming B, so that the old established operators are in trouble. Lonnie On 2/4/07, Mac Dearman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How are y'all running G in so many places? I would love to implement G, but I have so many towers sectored out and then we have so many clients running wireless routers close to the CPE that I feel like there would be trouble in Paradise here!! Are any of you running G on anything but an Omni antenna? (Multiple antennas on one tower?) Mac -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 12:30 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas Totally agree. A bad G link will still give as good as a GOOD B link. G will give 5 mbps even when it is close to not connecting and B requires superb signals to get 5 mbps. Lonnie On 2/4/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have quite abit of G out there. All the clients and ap's I install today are G. 60's is great, 70's work just fine too. 60's get top performance, 70' is still a great very fast connection and even low 80's beat B. B stands for Bad G stands for Good Marlon K. Schafer wrote: It's not about antenna size. It's about signal levels. Most g radios need -60ish signal levels to work well. Use the antennas that you need to make it work right. Find the sensitivity levels of the product you are using, run the calcs, and compute a 10 dB or so fade margin. laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 12:38 PM Subject: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas I
Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas
Mac Dearman wrote: See inline please my noise floor is as I live in Louisiana and my noise floor is just that - -MINE. I created the noise and I live with I have created. That's one of the purposes for the sectors. Maybe part of the difference is the city and the woods. I serve both and understand the complexity. I used to have lots of amps and even still have too many 200mw B cpe's getting the job done. What I've found out and experienced is that when I started removing the high powered stuff, everything worked better. Self interference disappeared. I caused a lot of noise. Only way to get rid of a high powered shot is to build a closer in ap. or use 900, which hasn't been so appealing to me. If this can't be done, high powered B is the answer and stay. Thats why my main site stays the way it is. there's no use swapping to G and having a few 200mw B cards yelling at it, it won't work well. I think it's an evolving process, myself. George -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas
Mac, You said: -- **This sounds like the answer I was looking for, but you failed horribly in announcing that all the CPE would have to be StarOS as well. Why don't you make something that will work with what we already have so many of? I am not now nor will I ever be an ISP that is totally dependant on one mans gear or software. All my eggs are never in one basket :-) --- Lonnie, described a configuration, which can be achieved by using a number of devices, and not necessarily tied with StarOS. Yes, all of this functionality is very conveniently built into StarOS, and may offer the highest leverage of the monies spent. But what I am curious about is why would you say that using StarOS would be totally dependent on one man's gear. Using Motorola Canopy, Trango, Alvarion, would be using one company's gear that does not interoperate. Using StarOS on a Wrap/Soekris/PC board with Atheros/Ubiquity Wireless modems is more like building your own PC hardware and putting on whatever operating system one wants. 802.11 a/b/g are standards developed to have different vendor's gear interoperate with each other, and yes, each vendor is free to use/create additional enhancements which may not be compatible with other vendors, but this is nothing different from all the existing practice. Moto claims, P7,P8,P9 hardware from the same product line may not interoperate unless you use a particular firmware or change hardware.. ( I am not speaking specifics, more a of general statement) Trango, has gone thru the cycle where the original 5380AP's would need to be replaced so as to upgrade... Heck even in the routing world, there are feature on a Cisco Router, which does not work with any other router or might not even work with some of their own product. StarOS is more of a 'Router' operating system like CISCO IOS or Juniper OS, which just happens to be highly tuned for wireless networks , and less of a 'Wireless Radio' (e.g like Moto Canopy, Trango, Alvarion etc). I would have thought that if not being tied to any one mans' gear was important, ( my personal thoughts are that this is a Utopian Goal, heavily promoted by folks who sell product branding), you would be much more open to embracing something like StarOS (which is built on Linux, open source !) and offer the greatest amount of flexibility than otherwise. My personal experience is that this is more like the Windows vs Linux/*Nix debate. It really does not matter what one says and how one justifies it, at the end of the day it is all about How Comfortable does one feel? with one product vs the other. Respectfully, Faisal Imtiaz SnappyDSL.net -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mac Dearman Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 3:31 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas See inline please Mac Dearman -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 1:59 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas We run as many as 4 G mode with 16 dB 60 degree sectors. The AP uses WLM54SuperG Atheros radios with X2 cloaking so this means the 4 channels are not overlapping. We are in a valley and the AP sites are typically on the sides, so that we do not require coverage on the back side. Some of my towers use only 2 radios with 16 dB 60 degree sectors pointed straight down the valley and people from the back side can still get a usable -85 dB. We use the WLM54SuperG radios (from Compex) on the AP and client and we are very happy with the performance. The Client is using a 14 dB Rootenna for the case and antenna in one. Just drop the cat5 with POE to the user provided switch and it is online. **This sounds like the answer I was looking for, but you failed horribly in announcing that all the CPE would have to be StarOS as well. Why don't you make something that will work with what we already have so many of? I am not now nor will I ever be an ISP that is totally dependant on one mans gear or software. All my eggs are never in one basket :-) big snip B is dead and is holding the Industry back. If you use B mode then you NEED 400 mW radios because of the noise. **Now you are talking outside your arena and insulting the majority on this list. You don't know what my noise floor is as I live in Louisiana and my noise floor is just that - -MINE. I created the noise and I live with I have created. That's one of the purposes for the sectors. Furthermore - B is not dead. I might as well say unless you live a new house and drive a new car, own a crew cab truck with a big diesel engine in it then you aren't a successful in life. Do you have a new home, car and a big truck Lonnie? You need to learn to NOT be so radical with what you say as well as take into account
Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas
Mac, nothing I said should have been even remotely insulting. I have read you trading insults with people and my post was quite tame in comparison. Your response was actually quite insulting and shows you can dish it out. Methinks you do this to get your way. I did not say anything about X2 cloaking requiring any particular brand of software and I will not even mention what we use. There are lots of systems that now support 5 10 MHz RF bandwidths. If you put your head back in the sand I hope you know what is exposed. The phone company ignored technology for years too, and then new guys who embraced technology jumped in and showed them up. At one time you embraced new technology, now you just want to sit back and make money from the investment you have already made. We develop new techniques to solve old problems using technology. Nobody says you have to use it. You maybe should but hey, that is up to you. Lonnie Lonnie On 2/4/07, Mac Dearman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: See inline please Mac Dearman -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 1:59 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas We run as many as 4 G mode with 16 dB 60 degree sectors. The AP uses WLM54SuperG Atheros radios with X2 cloaking so this means the 4 channels are not overlapping. We are in a valley and the AP sites are typically on the sides, so that we do not require coverage on the back side. Some of my towers use only 2 radios with 16 dB 60 degree sectors pointed straight down the valley and people from the back side can still get a usable -85 dB. We use the WLM54SuperG radios (from Compex) on the AP and client and we are very happy with the performance. The Client is using a 14 dB Rootenna for the case and antenna in one. Just drop the cat5 with POE to the user provided switch and it is online. **This sounds like the answer I was looking for, but you failed horribly in announcing that all the CPE would have to be StarOS as well. Why don't you make something that will work with what we already have so many of? I am not now nor will I ever be an ISP that is totally dependant on one mans gear or software. All my eggs are never in one basket :-) big snip B is dead and is holding the Industry back. If you use B mode then you NEED 400 mW radios because of the noise. **Now you are talking outside your arena and insulting the majority on this list. You don't know what my noise floor is as I live in Louisiana and my noise floor is just that - -MINE. I created the noise and I live with I have created. That's one of the purposes for the sectors. Furthermore - B is not dead. I might as well say unless you live a new house and drive a new car, own a crew cab truck with a big diesel engine in it then you aren't a successful in life. Do you have a new home, car and a big truck Lonnie? You need to learn to NOT be so radical with what you say as well as take into account that not everyone owns a software company and runs 100% Mikrotik or StarOS which is what it would take to cut the spectrum up in chunks as you are doing. I can bet I would never hear Tully make the comment that B is dead!! That really Galls my Grapes and scorches my Tater patch! If B were dead - - I guess I would be buried. You know what they say - - opinions are like # holes - - some of us just don't mind exposing ourselves in public places. If you use G mode and X2 cloaking then you need less than 100 mW and you'll have WAY better performance. Just to be sure about this point -- I am speaking from EXPERIENCE. This is not some plan I someday hope to try. It is what we use and is what a lot of others use as well. **I know a bunch of folks on this list PERSONALLY and don't know of even 1 that is all G unless they have only a couple APs out. As far as the old hands at wireless - - we are using a menagerie of different gear as so many vendors and software writers stuff was not suitable or they had more bugs than good drivers. We still have to tolerate different screw ups from you software writers from time to time. OFDM was invented as an improvement over previous modulation techniques. Why do people have such a hard time accepting that it actually works better? Is it because you have an investment in B only radios and realize you have to reinvest in G radios? **I have about 70 MikroTik (as well as Proxim, Trango, and others) APs/routers in the air today. I have G capable radios in every AP and is the reason for my asking my original non insulting question. I hate I feel like a June bug and you are the Duck! You really crack me up Lonnie - - Get off that box! It is sort of like the phone companies hanging onto their copper lines. Wireless started to cream them and now you are seeing that G is creaming B, so that the old established operators are in trouble
Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas
On Sun, 4 Feb 2007 11:59:18 -0800, Lonnie Nunweiler wrote I know this goes farther than the B versus G debate that was started, but the key thing in being able to do this is the cloaking with its reduced RF spectrum use. A B mode AP cannot do cloaking, nor can your AP do it if the AP is not an Atheros with a driver that properly supports the ability. It must be, because running your gear, I cannot get G mode to work acceptably AT ALL. In my area, every channel has SOME noise on it. Even with signal levels in the low '60's, I could never achieve better than 350 to 400 KB / sec throughput for a DEPLOYED AP and client, and B mode could hit 1400 KB/sec using compressible data, about 650-700 wihtout compression. Narrowing channels appears to kill the G characteristic of waiting for completely clear air before it will transmit. Without cloaking, a nearly idle access point in G mode with a G client, will have varying 1 to 400 ms pings as it waits for clear air to transmit in. Switching to B mode gives you rock solid 1 to 7 ms pings on an active AP with a number of clients. B is dead and is holding the Industry back. If you use B mode then you NEED 400 mW radios because of the noise. Nonsense. My highest power radios are CM9's and I have have few to no noise issues in B mode. B has limited throughput and yet it has it's uses. It is certainly NOT holding industry back. I believe that investing in B only technology is dumb, though. I thought it was dumb when I started a little less than 3 years ago, which is why I tried not to. I've found that 11a is actually a bit more friendly, in that it's easier to target your ap's and clients, and exclude noise sources outside the pattern. If you use G mode and X2 cloaking then you need less than 100 mW and you'll have WAY better performance. Just to be sure about this point -- I am speaking from EXPERIENCE. This is not some plan I someday hope to try. It is what we use and is what a lot of others use as well. Sub 100 MW works awesome in B mode, too, so long as the writers of the drivers dont' disable the awesome enhanced features available in Atheros based radios. ( HINT HINT ) OFDM was invented as an improvement over previous modulation techniques. Why do people have such a hard time accepting that it actually works better? Is it because you have an investment in B only radios and realize you have to reinvest in G radios? It is sort of like the phone companies hanging onto their copper lines. Wireless started to cream them and now you are seeing that G is creaming B, so that the old established operators are in trouble. That's a lotta hype. I put YOUR gear in place, as per YOUR instructions, and YOUR predictions don't work out that way. I've found that there's caveats to all this. OFDM makes great RF links, but it takes a little bit more signal to maintain low retransmissions or errors. On the other hand, OFDM is dramatically better when it comes to surviving multipath issues and fresnel encroachment. G mode is simply not workable in a busy environment, unless you can force the radio to abandon listening to non ofdm noise, or narrow your channels enough to get away from it. By design, standard 11g can have it's performance killed by even a single B client attempting to associate to the AP. Not explaining this to people wanting to implement is irresponsible, in my view. Lonnie -- Lonnie Nunweiler Valemount Networks Corporation http://www.star-os.com/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ Mark Koskenmaki Neofast, Inc Broadband for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains 541-969-8200 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas
with sites that have 10 users in a 15 mile RADIUS, you have to have an amp marlon - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 11:51 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas Amps? The success of G is less noise and less power. IMHO Never looked for a G amp or tried a G high powered card. Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Has anyone found an amp that'll work CORRECTLY with g AND b? marlon - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 11:21 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas Nothing scientific Mac, but I think lots of G ap's work better than lots of B ap's. Seems when I've seen high powered B ap's in the mix there can be issues. Where as when I see only low powered G things still work. The area I cover is fairly small, so i'm getting densly built out with omni's and sectors all over the place. Mac Dearman wrote: How are y'all running G in so many places? I would love to implement G, but I have so many towers sectored out and then we have so many clients running wireless routers close to the CPE that I feel like there would be trouble in Paradise here!! Are any of you running G on anything but an Omni antenna? (Multiple antennas on one tower?) Mac -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 12:30 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas Totally agree. A bad G link will still give as good as a GOOD B link. G will give 5 mbps even when it is close to not connecting and B requires superb signals to get 5 mbps. Lonnie On 2/4/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have quite abit of G out there. All the clients and ap's I install today are G. 60's is great, 70's work just fine too. 60's get top performance, 70' is still a great very fast connection and even low 80's beat B. B stands for Bad G stands for Good Marlon K. Schafer wrote: It's not about antenna size. It's about signal levels. Most g radios need -60ish signal levels to work well. Use the antennas that you need to make it work right. Find the sensitivity levels of the product you are using, run the calcs, and compute a 10 dB or so fade margin. laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 12:38 PM Subject: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas I wanted to get some feedback from the List. Typically, what Dbi gain antennas are you desiring for OFDM short Near-LOS or Mid-range CPE links? Is 18 dbi enough? I'm well aware that 18dbi will not be good for many applications (long range or noisy), but what percentage of CPE installtions would it be good for? Could 75% of the CPE installs be acheived with 18dbi? I personally, would pick a 21-23db antenna as a preferred choice, but PacWireless Rootennas are 19dbi, and often used with 13-15 dbm CM9 cards. The beamwidth of 18dbi ( 20-30 degrees) is pretty good for interference resilience and OFDM maximized, and if more gain was needed it could be accommodated with higher power radios such Teletronic's 18dbm Atheros cards or Ubiquiti's SR5 18-26db cards. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas
I'm not so sure about that Marlon. I put in a 10 mile link the other day just using a pair of cm9's and rootennas. xxx x6:0e x5.688 -74 -66 48 54 C Of course this was A. I try to keep the long shots 5 gig and the short ones 2 gig. The way I figure it, there's a lot of 2 gig out there in all shapes and flavors and when you go 10 - 15 miles it's inevidable that there will be some interference. If we are talking the middle of nowhere, you can easily do 15 miles with cm9 G, no amps. Mark has issues with G because he is using mostly V2 G, I believe. V2 G is a diferent animal, a diferent driver than V3. V3 is the best to date. Marlon K. Schafer wrote: with sites that have 10 users in a 15 mile RADIUS, you have to have an amp marlon - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 11:51 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas Amps? The success of G is less noise and less power. IMHO Never looked for a G amp or tried a G high powered card. Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Has anyone found an amp that'll work CORRECTLY with g AND b? marlon - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 11:21 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas Nothing scientific Mac, but I think lots of G ap's work better than lots of B ap's. Seems when I've seen high powered B ap's in the mix there can be issues. Where as when I see only low powered G things still work. The area I cover is fairly small, so i'm getting densly built out with omni's and sectors all over the place. Mac Dearman wrote: How are y'all running G in so many places? I would love to implement G, but I have so many towers sectored out and then we have so many clients running wireless routers close to the CPE that I feel like there would be trouble in Paradise here!! Are any of you running G on anything but an Omni antenna? (Multiple antennas on one tower?) Mac -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 12:30 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas Totally agree. A bad G link will still give as good as a GOOD B link. G will give 5 mbps even when it is close to not connecting and B requires superb signals to get 5 mbps. Lonnie On 2/4/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have quite abit of G out there. All the clients and ap's I install today are G. 60's is great, 70's work just fine too. 60's get top performance, 70' is still a great very fast connection and even low 80's beat B. B stands for Bad G stands for Good Marlon K. Schafer wrote: It's not about antenna size. It's about signal levels. Most g radios need -60ish signal levels to work well. Use the antennas that you need to make it work right. Find the sensitivity levels of the product you are using, run the calcs, and compute a 10 dB or so fade margin. laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 12:38 PM Subject: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas I wanted to get some feedback from the List. Typically, what Dbi gain antennas are you desiring for OFDM short Near-LOS or Mid-range CPE links? Is 18 dbi enough? I'm well aware that 18dbi will not be good for many applications (long range or noisy), but what percentage of CPE installtions would it be good for? Could 75% of the CPE installs be acheived with 18dbi? I personally, would pick a 21-23db antenna as a preferred choice, but PacWireless Rootennas are 19dbi, and often used with 13-15 dbm CM9 cards. The beamwidth of 18dbi ( 20-30 degrees) is pretty good for interference resilience and OFDM maximized, and if more gain was needed it could be accommodated with higher power radios such Teletronic's 18dbm Atheros cards or Ubiquiti's SR5 18-26db cards. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe
Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas
I believe I said we use reduced X2 cloaking for reduced RF spectrum usage, which you do not use because you have older gear or software that does not support it. You even agreed that reduced bandwidth works but that you chose not to use it. G mode does not have to play nice with B gear and that is why the newer drivers have selections for b only, b/g mixed or g only, so you cannot kill a G system with a single B client. If you simply replace that B client with a modern system you'll not have the troubles you do now. In my role of supporting people, I spend the bulk of my time dealing with people trying to make older B only systems work. They have reached the end of life simply due to the amount of B mode use out there. X2 cloaking extends the life of 2.4 GHz and in many cases is simply a software upgrade to get that new capability. It could also require an Atheros card to replace a prism or Orinoco and in more than a few cases it will require outright replacement of the entire system. You can't make a half hearted attempt at doing this. It is all or nothing. Try G mode with X2 cloaking and move over more and more big users to it. They will be happy and you will spend less time doing tech support. Even in a quiet environment X2 cloaking is still the way to go. Having double the number of non overlapping channels means much more spectrum to play with. X2 cloaking gives slightly higher power output, better receive sensitivity and higher digital processing conversion gain due to the reduced number OFDM RF carriers. It is superior. Simple. I do understand why people don't want to hear that. They have been operating on the basis that they were doing the right thing and they were making money, so they had it right. In reality they have been duped by the manufacturers who could not figure out how to do it right, or who made more money flogging last gen technology. So don't get mad at me, get mad at the guys who sold you your current B only client gear. They are the ones who mislead you. I'm just the messenger and the guy with a better system. You want what I have but you are angry that your current gear does not do it. I am on one location that has 7 other Access Points all beaming to the same town site. Nothing works if we use standard 20 MHz channels. X2 cloaking works on pretty much any channel I wish to use and I use 4 of those, so the total is 11 radios in 2.4 GHz from that site and all going to the same general location. My stuff works and I think their stuff works because we are just noise to them, and the whole concept of spread spectrum is not being bothered by noise. This is why I said B is dead and G is the new thing, simply because of the cloaking ability. If more people switched to cloaking then even the standard stuff would be better. This is sort of like the way 900 MHz is rebounding because nobody is using it anymore, plus the new radios and drivers can have 4 channels of 5 MHz RF spectrum. That 5 MHz can deliver a solid 6.5 mbps and up to 12 mbps with compression kicking in. Lonnie On 2/4/07, wispa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 4 Feb 2007 11:59:18 -0800, Lonnie Nunweiler wrote I know this goes farther than the B versus G debate that was started, but the key thing in being able to do this is the cloaking with its reduced RF spectrum use. A B mode AP cannot do cloaking, nor can your AP do it if the AP is not an Atheros with a driver that properly supports the ability. It must be, because running your gear, I cannot get G mode to work acceptably AT ALL. In my area, every channel has SOME noise on it. Even with signal levels in the low '60's, I could never achieve better than 350 to 400 KB / sec throughput for a DEPLOYED AP and client, and B mode could hit 1400 KB/sec using compressible data, about 650-700 wihtout compression. Narrowing channels appears to kill the G characteristic of waiting for completely clear air before it will transmit. Without cloaking, a nearly idle access point in G mode with a G client, will have varying 1 to 400 ms pings as it waits for clear air to transmit in. Switching to B mode gives you rock solid 1 to 7 ms pings on an active AP with a number of clients. B is dead and is holding the Industry back. If you use B mode then you NEED 400 mW radios because of the noise. Nonsense. My highest power radios are CM9's and I have have few to no noise issues in B mode. B has limited throughput and yet it has it's uses. It is certainly NOT holding industry back. I believe that investing in B only technology is dumb, though. I thought it was dumb when I started a little less than 3 years ago, which is why I tried not to. I've found that 11a is actually a bit more friendly, in that it's easier to target your ap's and clients, and exclude noise sources outside the pattern. If you use G mode and X2 cloaking then you need less than 100 mW and you'll have WAY better performance. Just to be sure about this point -- I am
Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas
No you don't. wpci1: atheros100 -73dbm -96dbm 23 2442 sta,U1,x200:80:48:39:8e:42 war-platform ~ starutil 10.10.251.1 password -rx rx rate: 1220 KB/sec (Press Ctrl-C to exit) war-platform ~ war-platform ~ traceroute -n 10.10.251.1 traceroute to 10.10.251.1 (10.10.251.1), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets 1 10.10.67.1 5.532 ms 10.319 ms 4.523 ms 2 10.10.12.5 6.805 ms 11.779 ms 4.623 ms 3 10.10.227.1 5.018 ms 6.86 ms 5.174 ms 4 10.10.226.254 5.307 ms 7.747 ms 5.948 ms 5 10.10.251.1 8.279 ms 12.21 ms 5.814 ms This is the client at 13 miles in X2 cloaking. The AP is a 16 dB 60 degree sector and the client is a 24 dB grid. If this were an AP in the middle I could just as easily use a 15 dB omni and achieve almost identical results. Both units have a Compex WLM-54SuperG radio. No high power, no amplifiers. I don't need it and neither do you. An amplifier adds noise and worse, it increases the time to transition from tx to rx, which requires that you use long preamble which slows performance down. The worst thing it adds is signal, which you do not need and which messes up areas outside your coverage. You have been using amps for so long you just believe you always have to use them. A lot of companies have made a lot of money selling unnecessary amplifiers and they prey on the guys who do not know any better. That is fine normally and you would just laugh at the guy for not knowing better, but when that guy is in the same area as you are trying to serve, then it is not funny. Lonnie On 2/4/07, Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: with sites that have 10 users in a 15 mile RADIUS, you have to have an amp marlon - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 11:51 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas Amps? The success of G is less noise and less power. IMHO Never looked for a G amp or tried a G high powered card. Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Has anyone found an amp that'll work CORRECTLY with g AND b? marlon - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 11:21 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas Nothing scientific Mac, but I think lots of G ap's work better than lots of B ap's. Seems when I've seen high powered B ap's in the mix there can be issues. Where as when I see only low powered G things still work. The area I cover is fairly small, so i'm getting densly built out with omni's and sectors all over the place. Mac Dearman wrote: How are y'all running G in so many places? I would love to implement G, but I have so many towers sectored out and then we have so many clients running wireless routers close to the CPE that I feel like there would be trouble in Paradise here!! Are any of you running G on anything but an Omni antenna? (Multiple antennas on one tower?) Mac -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 12:30 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas Totally agree. A bad G link will still give as good as a GOOD B link. G will give 5 mbps even when it is close to not connecting and B requires superb signals to get 5 mbps. Lonnie On 2/4/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have quite abit of G out there. All the clients and ap's I install today are G. 60's is great, 70's work just fine too. 60's get top performance, 70' is still a great very fast connection and even low 80's beat B. B stands for Bad G stands for Good Marlon K. Schafer wrote: It's not about antenna size. It's about signal levels. Most g radios need -60ish signal levels to work well. Use the antennas that you need to make it work right. Find the sensitivity levels of the product you are using, run the calcs, and compute a 10 dB or so fade margin. laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 12:38 PM Subject: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas I wanted to get some feedback from the List. Typically, what Dbi gain antennas are you desiring for OFDM short Near-LOS or Mid-range CPE links? Is 18 dbi enough? I'm well aware that 18dbi will not be good for many applications (long range or noisy), but what percentage of CPE installtions would it be good for? Could 75% of the CPE installs be acheived with 18dbi? I personally, would pick a 21-23db antenna as a preferred choice, but PacWireless Rootennas are 19dbi, and often used with 13-15 dbm CM9 cards. The beamwidth of 18dbi ( 20-30 degrees) is pretty good for interference resilience and OFDM maximized, and if more gain was needed it could be accommodated with higher power radios
[WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas
I wanted to get some feedback from the List. Typically, what Dbi gain antennas are you desiring for OFDM short Near-LOS or Mid-range CPE links? Is 18 dbi enough? I'm well aware that 18dbi will not be good for many applications (long range or noisy), but what percentage of CPE installtions would it be good for? Could 75% of the CPE installs be acheived with 18dbi? I personally, would pick a 21-23db antenna as a preferred choice, but PacWireless Rootennas are 19dbi, and often used with 13-15 dbm CM9 cards. The beamwidth of 18dbi ( 20-30 degrees) is pretty good for interference resilience and OFDM maximized, and if more gain was needed it could be accommodated with higher power radios such Teletronic's 18dbm Atheros cards or Ubiquiti's SR5 18-26db cards. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas
On Sat, 3 Feb 2007 15:38:04 -0500, Tom DeReggi wrote I wanted to get some feedback from the List. Typically, what Dbi gain antennas are you desiring for OFDM short Near-LOS or Mid-range CPE links? Is 18 dbi enough? I'm well aware that 18dbi will not be good for many applications (long range or noisy), but what percentage of CPE installtions would it be good for? Could 75% of the CPE installs be acheived with 18dbi? I personally, would pick a 21-23db antenna as a preferred choice, but PacWireless Rootennas are 19dbi, and often used with 13-15 dbm CM9 cards. The beamwidth of 18dbi ( 20-30 degrees) is pretty good for interference resilience and OFDM maximized, and if more gain was needed it could be accommodated with higher power radios such Teletronic's 18dbm Atheros cards or Ubiquiti's SR5 18-26db cards. Ok, where do I start... I can't tell that antenna design matters a bit whether you're using OFDM or QAM or... ??? Seems the radio waves propagate the same. I'm using 18 db grids out to well past 20 miles, with no amps and no high powered radios (using CM-9's). I have ONE client with a 24 db grid at 17 miles or so, and he's got like a -60's RSSI. Doesn't even need it, but it was mounted to his house when I hooked him up. So I saved myself 40 bucks and used his. I have one client btween 29 and 30 miles using a 16 db Vagi, from Pacwireless. Again, no high powered cards, and he's got around 12 to 15 db SNR ( -80 to -83). I was going to use a 19 db grid, but my antenna was defective, and that was the only other thing in the van. Star-OS access point, Compex WP54AG client board, running Ikarus. I think our maximum throughput in 11b mode (won't work in G, sorry) was 350KB or so. The customer is a 2M client, and we can get 2M in a speed test any hour of the day or night. My expeirience with G mode (not ofdm specifically) is that much higher RSSI is required to work at all. I've seen OFDM clients work fine for 900 mhz at -85, so long as you weren't hoping to get past 1M throughput in a 5mhz wide channel. My first 40 clients were ALL 18 db grids, be they 1 mile or 23 miles. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ Mark Koskenmaki Neofast, Inc Broadband for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains 541-969-8200 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
