[WSG] Drop down menu, JavaScript accessibility
Hello all, We have been operating a drop down menu system on http://www.salford.gov.uk for around a year now and in that time, the menu has changed from a pure JavaScript version to the more accessible and semantic UDM4 (http://www.udm4.com). As a local government site, we get tested for accessibility regularly, both internally and by external parties, together with our own tests. Our CMS is still in the dark ages as regards web standards and producing accessible code, but I've managed to get much of the site valid as possible (Google currently indexes 33,700 pages, minus .pdf and .doc files). However one of the more recent external tests indicated that the drop down menu was failing the site due to the way the menu appears if JavaScript is disabled. I'd be interested in any opinions on the menu, with JavaScript enabled and disabled. Also, any alternative script or recommendations would be very useful. Antony (attending @media 2005) Antony Golding Principal e-Government Services Officer Salford City Council E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Telephone: 0161 793 2232 DISCLAIMER: The information in this message is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this message by anyone else is unauthorised. If you are not the intended recipient,any disclosure, copying, or distribution of the message, or any action or omission taken by you in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be unlawful. Please immediately contact the sender if you have received this message in error. For the full disclaimer please access http://www.salford.gov.uk/e-mail Thank you. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Drop down menu, JavaScript accessibility
Hi Antony, Take a look at the suckerfish dropdowns, which have been improved by htmldog at http://www.htmldog.com/articles/suckerfish/dropdowns/example/ Fully unobtrusive, accessible and still a nice look and feel! Succes, Marc van den Dobbelsteen (WebbForce - The Netherlands) -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Golding, Antony Verzonden: vrijdag 28 januari 2005 8:59 Aan: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Onderwerp: [WSG] Drop down menu, JavaScript accessibility Hello all, We have been operating a drop down menu system on http://www.salford.gov.uk for around a year now and in that time, the menu has changed from a pure JavaScript version to the more accessible and semantic UDM4 (http://www.udm4.com). As a local government site, we get tested for accessibility regularly, both internally and by external parties, together with our own tests. Our CMS is still in the dark ages as regards web standards and producing accessible code, but I've managed to get much of the site valid as possible (Google currently indexes 33,700 pages, minus .pdf and .doc files). However one of the more recent external tests indicated that the drop down menu was failing the site due to the way the menu appears if JavaScript is disabled. I'd be interested in any opinions on the menu, with JavaScript enabled and disabled. Also, any alternative script or recommendations would be very useful. Antony (attending @media 2005) Antony Golding Principal e-Government Services Officer Salford City Council E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Telephone: 0161 793 2232 DISCLAIMER: The information in this message is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this message by anyone else is unauthorised. If you are not the intended recipient,any disclosure, copying, or distribution of the message, or any action or omission taken by you in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be unlawful. Please immediately contact the sender if you have received this message in error. For the full disclaimer please access http://www.salford.gov.uk/e-mail Thank you. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** De informatie opgenomen in dit bericht kan vertrouwelijk zijn en is uitsluitend bestemd voor de geadresseerde. Indien u dit bericht onterecht ontvangt, wordt u verzocht de inhoud niet te gebruiken en de afzender direct te informeren door het bericht te retourneren. The information contained in this message may be confidential and is intended to be exclusively for the addressee. Should you receive this message unintentionally, please do not use the contents herein and notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Drop down menu, JavaScript accessibility
Is there anything wrong with using css and adding a js to 'enable' :hover for everything in ie? Golding, Antony wrote: Hello all, We have been operating a drop down menu system on http://www.salford.gov.uk for around a year now and in that time, the menu has changed from a pure JavaScript version to the more accessible and semantic UDM4 (http://www.udm4.com). As a local government site, we get tested for accessibility regularly, both internally and by external parties, together with our own tests. Our CMS is still in the dark ages as regards web standards and producing accessible code, but I've managed to get much of the site valid as possible (Google currently indexes 33,700 pages, minus .pdf and .doc files). However one of the more recent external tests indicated that the drop down menu was failing the site due to the way the menu appears if JavaScript is disabled. ... ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Search Engines and CSS
On 28 Jan 2005, at 01:28, Mike Pepper wrote: Take a look at some fought over keyphrases like 'website development' in Google UK. You'll find many sites spamming with irrelevant noscript, off-screen absolute positioned text, minute text, hidden layers, even some cretins with WOW (white-on-white) text. And you know what? Google doesn't do a damn thing about it. I think that's a bit unfair. It's a bit like complaining that the police do nothing about crime in your area when none of the residents can be bothered to report it. If you see a site which use dubious methods to gain a ranking advantage, contact Google and complain. I've a friend who's a professional SEO and one of the main things he and many of his colleagues do is report dubious sites. If after a month or so nothing has been done about it, then complain about it. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Drop down menu, JavaScript accessibility
Nope, nothing at all. Just bung it in an IE conditional clause calling a
stylesheet containing an HTC behaviour call.
Like : !--[if IE]link rel=stylesheet href=css/cw_ie.css
type=text/css media=all /![endif]--
with cs_ie.css containing whatever:
#menubar li {
behavior: url(css/iehover.htc);
}
and the HTC file:
attach event=onmouseover handler=mouseover /
attach event=onmouseout handler=mouseout /
script type=text/javascript
function mouseover() {
for( var x = 0; element.childNodes[x]; x++ ){
if(element.childNodes[x].tagName == 'UL') {
element.childNodes[x].style.display = 'block';
}
}
}
function mouseout() {
for( var x = 0; element.childNodes[x]; x++ ){
if(element.childNodes[x].tagName == 'UL') {
element.childNodes[x].style.display = 'none';
}
}
}
/script
HTH,
Mike Pepper
Accessible Web Developer
Internet SEO and Marketing Analyst
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.visidigm.com
Administrator
Guild of Accessible Web Designers
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.gawds.org
Jixor wrote:
Is there anything wrong with using css and adding a js to 'enable'
:hover for everything in ie?
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
RE: [WSG] Search Engines and CSS
Andy, I have sent literally hundreds of mails to Google illustrating exactly what the miscreants are doing and how. I take SEO seriously and know most if not all the techniques. They have never responded in any way other than their automated responders. I eventually gave up in the knowledge that I was wasting my time and energy. Whenever I tackle a new market arena demanding fresh keyphrase analysis I always vet the competition to see what I'm up against. The volume of spam is extraordinary. Yahoo! and MSN are better. They at least make an effort to respond and deal with alerts. I have zero tolerance for spammers in any shape or form but as far as Google goes, they're a waste of space when it comes to fighting spam. It's not unfair; it's my experience over the past 3 years. Mike Pepper Accessible Web Developer Internet SEO and Marketing Analyst [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.visidigm.com Administrator Guild of Accessible Web Designers [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.gawds.org -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Andy Budd Sent: 28 January 2005 09:53 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Search Engines and CSS On 28 Jan 2005, at 01:28, Mike Pepper wrote: Take a look at some fought over keyphrases like 'website development' in Google UK. You'll find many sites spamming with irrelevant noscript, off-screen absolute positioned text, minute text, hidden layers, even some cretins with WOW (white-on-white) text. And you know what? Google doesn't do a damn thing about it. I think that's a bit unfair. It's a bit like complaining that the police do nothing about crime in your area when none of the residents can be bothered to report it. If you see a site which use dubious methods to gain a ranking advantage, contact Google and complain. I've a friend who's a professional SEO and one of the main things he and many of his colleagues do is report dubious sites. If after a month or so nothing has been done about it, then complain about it. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.1 - Release Date: 27/01/05 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Drop down menu, JavaScript accessibility
Yeah this is what I would do. Just make sure that the site is also
navigable via the top level navigation. Or make different styles for ie
with no js enabled.
Mike Pepper wrote:
Nope, nothing at all. Just bung it in an IE conditional clause calling a
stylesheet containing an HTC behaviour call.
Like : !--[if IE]link rel=stylesheet href=css/cw_ie.css
type=text/css media=all /![endif]--
with cs_ie.css containing whatever:
#menubar li {
behavior: url(css/iehover.htc);
}
and the HTC file:
attach event=onmouseover handler=mouseover /
attach event=onmouseout handler=mouseout /
script type=text/javascript
function mouseover() {
for( var x = 0; element.childNodes[x]; x++ ){
if(element.childNodes[x].tagName == 'UL') {
element.childNodes[x].style.display = 'block';
}
}
}
function mouseout() {
for( var x = 0; element.childNodes[x]; x++ ){
if(element.childNodes[x].tagName == 'UL') {
element.childNodes[x].style.display = 'none';
}
}
}
/script
HTH,
Mike Pepper
Accessible Web Developer
Internet SEO and Marketing Analyst
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.visidigm.com
Administrator
Guild of Accessible Web Designers
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.gawds.org
Jixor wrote:
Is there anything wrong with using css and adding a js to 'enable'
:hover for everything in ie?
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] Drop down menu, JavaScript accessibility
With java disabled in FF1 the drop downs appear as a long bulleted list and of course everthing else get moved around. Doesn't look like the same site at all. On 1/28/2005 2:59:06 AM, wsg@webstandardsgroup.org wrote: Hello all, We have been operating a drop down menu system on http://www.salford.gov. uk for around a year now and in that time, the menu has changed from a pure JavaScript version to the more accessible and semantic UDM4 (http://www. udm4.com). As a local government site, we get tested for accessibility regularly, both internally and by external parties, together with our own tests. Our CMS is still in the dark ages as regards web standards and producing accessible code, but I've managed to get much of the site valid as possible (Google currently indexes 33,700 pages, minus .pdf and .doc files). However one of the more recent external tests indicated that the drop down menu was failing the site due to the way the menu appears if JavaScript is disabled. I'd be interested in any opinions on the menu, with JavaScript enabled and disabled. Also, any alternative script or recommendations would be very useful. Antony (attending @media 2005) Antony Golding Principal e-Government Services Officer Salford City Council E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Telephone: 0161 793 2232 DISCLAIMER: The information in this message is confidential and may be ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] how to mark up h3 header for list
Paul Novitski wrote: Or, for that matter: dl dtHeading/dt dditem1/dd dditem2/dd dditem3/dd /dl Rene, I don't quite understand your comment about heading level. How can you know that the list heading isn't a valid level without seeing its context in the page? Well, I just thought in some general way that it's probably going to be a navigation bar (ul class=navlist) and somewhere before or after that is going to be the main content with it's headings. The navigation probably always remains quite the same, but the main content changes. And if you strongly don't limit yourself to - let's say - only one level of headings (I wouldn't like to limit myself this way) then you newer know if you one day will need headings that are on the same or even on lower level than your nevigation heading - and this could make things quite fuzzy... ...but thats only what I think (actually 'thought', because this thread gave me many new viewpoints to consider). Also, you have made a strong point - without seeing the whole picture (of the site), the advice we give is more like what I usually do in similar situation. Regards, Rene ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Drop down menu, JavaScript accessibility
We have been operating a drop down menu system on http://www.salford.gov.uk for around a year now and in that time, the menu has changed from a pure JavaScript version to the more accessible and semantic UDM4 (http://www.udm4.com). However one of the more recent external tests indicated that the drop down menu was failing the site due to the way the menu appears if JavaScript is disabled. I'd be interested in any opinions on the menu, with JavaScript enabled and disabled. Also, any alternative script or recommendations would be very useful. Antony (attending @media 2005) Anthony- I've not checked your site and am not familiar with that menu system, but it appears they have just updated their menus to be more accessible. How or in what way, I have no clue. This is from their home page: quote Latest Update Saturday 15th January 2005 This release is a signficant update in terms of accessibility, usability, and cross-browser support. Existing users are encouraged to read these release notes carefully, as the changes may affect your current configuration... And the menu's accessibility to screenreaders is greatly improved, so it no longer relies on scripting, and includes any browser-based reader using Opera, Mozilla, Safari or Konqueror (as well as Win/IE). endquote Regards, Ron application/ms-tnef
RE: [WSG] Drop down menu, JavaScript accessibility
Thanks for the responses, guys. The main problem with the script is when JavaScript is disabled, as Bennie mentioned. I thought I had the perfect workaround by only displaying the top level links if JavaScript was disabled, and it looked and worked perfectly, stopping the corruption of the page. Unfortunately I did this by using an additional style sheet that was embedded in a noscript tag in the head... noscriptstyle type=text/css@import url(noscript.css);/style/noscript The new CSS replaced the styles that would have been setup by the JS to make the static menu appear similar to the dropdown. However, the W3C validator reported it was invalid to embed style in noscript, so if anyone has any suggestions to get around this issue, I'd be very grateful. Antony DISCLAIMER: The information in this message is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this message by anyone else is unauthorised. If you are not the intended recipient,any disclosure, copying, or distribution of the message, or any action or omission taken by you in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be unlawful. Please immediately contact the sender if you have received this message in error. For the full disclaimer please access http://www.salford.gov.uk/e-mail Thank you. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Search Engines and CSS - Not the real story.
Darren, That's not the real story. It's all well and good to have an honest web site that people link to and like. In all probably you will then do well in Google. But you know and I know folks who actively do good SEO work can do well in Google too. And not only that, but you can do SEO work and be honest! They are not mutually exclusive. Many successful sites will be, IMHO, a combination of both. So SEO does matter, and CSS and SEO may matter too. Not to get into an SEO debate here, but let's be fair. To address the question of whether Google will appreciate CSS, I don't have facts but the logic goes that Google and other engines like text, and anything but text gets in the way. So when you use CSS and move your content to HTML ratio in favor of content you make your site more SEO friendly. I'll bet others here will have some similar thoughts. However, in my estimation CSS isn't so important to SEO. I'd like to be proven wrong though. Chris -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Darren Wood Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 6:34 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Search Engines and CSS I'm not sure if they do. But what I can tell you is that there is no point at all to try and fool search engines. Search engines (google) will give you more rank if your site is honest, well built and on topic. You can try all the tricks in the world...but the fact remains: if your site is good then people will link to it, if lots of people link to it then google will be more inclined to like your site too. Cheers D Ryan Sabir wrote: Hey all, Does anyone have a definitive answer on whether search engines take any notice of CSS? We have known for a long time that is you have a text coloured the same as its background then search engines will consider this as an attempt to fool them, and lower your pages ranking... but what about doing the same thing with CSS? There would be so many ways to hide text with css, setting display to none, setting the background colour, pushing the padding up so the text gets pushed out of the element, etc... Someone could develop their page full of H1's with dodgy keywords, and simply not display the content of those H1's. We are always told the search engines pay respect to markup, so then this H1 content would be given high relevance. I've been searching around for an answer to this and many people are saying 'maybe' Google does read your css. Does anyone know this for a fact? thanks all, bye! --- Ryan Sabir Newgency Pty Ltd 2a Broughton St Paddington 2021 Sydney, Australia Ph (02) 9331 2133 Fax (02) 9331 5199 Mobile: 0411 512 454 http://www.newgency.com/index.cfm?referer=rysig ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Search Engines and CSS
Mike Pepper wrote: I have sent literally hundreds of mails to Google illustrating exactly what the miscreants are doing and how. I take SEO seriously and know most if not all the techniques. They have never responded in any way other than their automated responders. I eventually gave up in the knowledge that I was wasting my time and energy. It's not unfair; it's my experience over the past 3 years. Sorry Mike, I got the wrong end of the stick there. I thought you were complaining about them not automagically picking up on spamdexing. While I'm not surprised that you didn't get a personal response I am a little surprised that the sites in question haven't been penalised. I wonder if you report your competition to Google and they do nothing about it, you'd have a case for suing them for loss of earnings? This lack of responsiveness gives unscrupulous SEO's an good incentive to spam Google while hurting the more honest SEO's out there. Now where did I put my list of keywords, my doorway pages and my cloaking scripts? Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Drop down menu, JavaScript accessibility
The point is that the site is still usable... if it looks slightly (or extremely) different that's OK. It is highly unlikly that people will visit a site in more than one browser so what they see is how they think the site should look. Also java, and javascript or not the same thing. Java is a programming language that is complied and delivered as an application, Javascript is a scripting language that is interpreted on the fly by web browsers. Terrence Wood. Bennie Shepherd wrote: With java disabled in FF1 the drop downs appear as a long bulleted list and of course everthing else get moved around. Doesn't look like the same site at all. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] cover me, I have a flash question
Hello all Our marketing department sent me a postcard with fancy fonts and wanted to put the entire image in one of the web pages, after shaking and breaking into a cold sweat, I remembered there was a technique to replace text dynamically with flash. I thought this would be better than throwing up ... a large image into the page. It was featured on the ESPN site. I could only find a reference to the php version on alistapart. Does anyone know where I could find this? Has anyone had any experience using it? Any feedback or suggestions? Thanks Ted Drake Web Content Editor CSA Travel Protection http://www.csatravelprotection.com
Re: [WSG] Building with scaling in mind
On 28 Jan 2005, at 00:22, Paul Novitski wrote: At 01:30 PM 1/27/2005, Tom Livingston wrote: I was admiring stopdesign.com. I think it's a beautiful layout. But I am having a problem wrapping my head around the concept behind building a page like that so that when text is scaled, the containers don't get all messed up. On stopdesign.com, the containers get deeper as needed but the layout (i.e, the positions of one container next to another) stays solid. Tom, Looks like stopdesign is using fixed width containers, so when the text enlarges the page stretches vertically but not horizontally. You need to check the various layouts that he uses. There is an option to change the style to Liquid Bleach (I think). You will find that he does have a fluid layout. You just have to enable it. http://stopdesign.com/about/prefs/ There you go -- Paul Connolley SQL/Systems Programmer Egocentric - http://egocentric.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] cover me, I have a flash question
Ted Drake wrote: Does anyone know where I could find this? http://www.mikeindustries.com/blog/archive/2004/12/sifr-2.0-release-candidate-3 Or you may just turn the entire postcard into an image with meaningful ALT attribute, if there's not too much text... -- Patrick H. Lauke _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Drop down menu, JavaScript accessibility
Do it the other way around... put the CSS for no javascript support in a
file and attach via a link in the head of your document. Use js to
disable it - thanks to themaninblue for the stylesheet script.
link rel=stylesheet type=text/css href=noscript.css
title=noscript /
script type=text/javascript
// see: http://www.themaninblue.com/writing/perspective/2004/09/21/
function setStylesheet(styleTitle)
{
var currTag;
if (document.getElementsByTagName)
{
for (var i = 0; (currTag =
document.getElementsByTagName(link)[i]); i++)
{
if (currTag.getAttribute(rel).indexOf(style) != -1
currTag.getAttribute(title))
{
currTag.disabled = true;
if(currTag.getAttribute(title) == styleTitle)
{
currTag.disabled = true;
}
}
}
}
return true;
}
setStylesheet('noscript')
/script
Terrence Wood.
Golding, Antony wrote:
The new CSS replaced the styles that would have been setup by the JS to make
the static menu appear similar to the dropdown. However, the W3C validator
reported it was invalid to embed style in noscript, so if anyone has any
suggestions to get around this issue, I'd be very grateful.
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] Drop down menu, JavaScript accessibility
Golding, Antony wrote: Unfortunately I did this by using an additional style sheet that was embedded in a noscript tag in the head... noscriptstyle type=text/css@import url(noscript.css);/style/noscript The new CSS replaced the styles that would have been setup by the JS to make the static menu appear similar to the dropdown. However, the W3C validator reported it was invalid to embed style in noscript, so if anyone has any suggestions to get around this issue, I'd be very grateful. Don't use noscript...switch to using DOM manipulation: have the style block there, and use JS to dynamically remove the style node (which it obviously only does when it's enabled...so when JS is off, the style block remain where it is). If I find some time, I may even make a little demo experiment on this on splintered this weekend... -- Patrick H. Lauke _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] cover me, I have a flash question
Ted Drake wrote: Hello all I could only find a reference to the php version on alistapart. Does anyone know where I could find this? Has anyone had any experience using it? Any feedback or suggestions? Shaun Inman (http://www.shauninman.com) uses it a lot, he's got an article or two about it on his site AFAIK/IIRC -- -David R ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] cover me, I have a flash question
Take a look here, at Mike Industries, http://www.mikeindustries.com/blog/archive/2004/08/sifr Best regards, Marilyn Langfeld http://www.langfeldesigns.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] +1.301.598.3300 business phone +1.301.598.0532 fax +1.202.390.8847 mobile On Jan 28, 2005, at 12:45 PM, Ted Drake wrote: x-tad-smallerHello all/x-tad-smaller x-tad-smallerOur marketing department sent me a postcard with fancy fonts and wanted to put the entire image in one of the web pages, after shaking and breaking into a cold sweat, I remembered there was a technique to replace text dynamically with flash. I thought this would be better than throwing up ... a large image into the page. It was featured on the ESPN site./x-tad-smallerx-tad-smaller /x-tad-smaller x-tad-smallerI could only find a reference to the php version on alistapart. Does anyone know where I could find this? Has anyone had any experience using it? Any feedback or suggestions?/x-tad-smaller x-tad-smallerThanks/x-tad-smaller x-tad-smallerTed Drake/x-tad-smallerx-tad-smallerWeb Content Editor/x-tad-smallerx-tad-smallerCSA Travel Protection/x-tad-smallerx-tad-smallerhttp://www.csatravelprotection.com/x-tad-smaller
Re: [WSG] cover me, I have a flash question
Take a look at sIFR http://www.mikeindustries.com/blog/archive/2004/08/sifr or look a flash satay: http://allinthehead.com/retro/234/embedding-macromedia-flash-in-xhtml Terrence Wood. Ted Drake wrote: Our marketing department sent me a postcard with fancy fonts and wanted to put the entire image in one of the web pages, after shaking and breaking into a cold sweat, I remembered there was a technique to replace text dynamically with flash. I thought this would be better than throwing up ... a large image into the page. It was featured on the ESPN site. I could only find a reference to the php version on alistapart. Does anyone know where I could find this? Has anyone had any experience using it? Any feedback or suggestions? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] need explanation on this css element please
Can someone explain exactly what using * in front of something does such as
*html li {padding:0;margin:0;}
also, I noticed this doesn't validate by w3c, but I see it a lot
--
::Bruce::
**
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Re: [WSG] need explanation on this css element please
On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 15:04:52 -0500, Bruce Gilbert [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
*html li {padding:0;margin:0;}
It's the 'star html' hack, which is only parsed by IE. IE thinks
there's another element 'above' html. There isn't, but hey.
also, I noticed this doesn't validate by w3c, but I see it a lot
It should validate. Get rid of the space.
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[WSG] What's up with Mac IE and floats?
Hello Everyone. I'm not sure if I made myself clear enough in the last email. This may help better. What's up with Mac IE and floats? This page works in PC IE and FF and all the browsers on Mac except IE. Please view this page http://sonze.com/dvre/who.html for me. It works fine on Mac Safari, Netscape, Firefox but in IE the right column float is falling below that previous div> instead of to the right of it. Does anyone know what the problem is and the solution to fix it? The CSS file is here http://sonze.com/dvre/css/internal.css Notice anything wrong in my coding? The CSS XHTML validate. XHTML Page: http://sonze.com/dvre/who.html CSS: http://sonze.com/dvre/css/internal.css Thank you! Shane Helm sonzeDesignStudio www.sonze.com
[WSG] Gap in IE
This is a very general response to your first problem (the gap in ie). I havent looked at your code, and there is very likely a better way to solve it, however I often find that I run into some small rendering difference such as this one in IE and on no other browser. In these kinds of cases, if I cant easily solve the problem, I often resort to a little targeting hack that looks something like this: margin:0 !important; margin:-2px 0 0 0; IE ignores the !important declaration and obeys the second margin declaration. More compliant browsers give a top-margin of 0 and IE moves the block up 2 pixels. Hope this helps. Mani Sheriar Sheriar Designs | www.ManiSheriar.com 925|914.0741
Re: [WSG] Search Engines and CSS
On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 10:14:04 +1100, Ryan Sabir wrote: Does anyone have a definitive answer on whether search engines take any notice of CSS? If you examine your log files, you will find that Googlebot et al never call for your css file. Thus they are not viewing it, and not using it to determine the site. We have known for a long time that is you have a text coloured the same as its background then search engines will consider this as an attempt to fool them, and lower your pages ranking... but what about doing the same thing with CSS? They are reliant on people reporting sites for this. We are always told the search engines pay respect to markup, so then this H1 content would be given high relevance. No, not particularly - the search engines dont seem to be semantic at all. I've been searching around for an answer to this and many people are saying 'maybe' Google does read your css. Does anyone know this for a fact? If the log files dont show them loading it then they dont have the data to analyse it. Simple. Lea -- Lea de Groot Elysian Systems - I Understand the Internet http://elysiansystems.com/ Search Engine Optimisation, Usability, Information Architecture, Web Design Brisbane, Australia ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] What's up with Mac IE and floats?
On 29 Jan 2005, at 8:44 am, Shane Helm wrote: I'm not sure if I made myself clear enough in the last email. This may help better. What's up with Mac IE and floats? This page works in PC IE and FF and all the browsers on Mac except IE. Please view this page http://sonze.com/dvre/who.html for me. It works fine on Mac Safari, Netscape, Firefox but in IE the right column float is falling below that previous div instead of to the right of it. Does anyone know what the problem is and the solution to fix it? The CSS file is here http://sonze.com/dvre/css/internal.css Notice anything wrong in my coding? The CSS XHTML validate. the problem is the clear:left on you #container which is kind of inherited in IE Mac See http://www.l-c-n.com/IE5tests/float2misc/#fm002 Philippe ---/--- Philippe Wittenbergh now live : http://emps.l-c-n.com/ code | design | web projects : http://www.l-c-n.com/ IE5 Mac bugs and oddities : http://www.l-c-n.com/IE5tests/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Any ASP.Net standards people here?
That's just wrong. I am an ASP.NET developer and I am ALSO a web standards and CSS fan. I try as hard as possible to keep my code compliant. I don't think it's 100% possible, but I do manage to keep my code at least 90% standards-compliant. The only offenders you can't easily get rid of are the weird ViewState tags (which you can choose NOT to use, if you don't use post-back forms) and .NET's weird FORM tags. I do not use the non-compliant and bloated Controls like DataGrids, and instead output tabular data using Repeaters which allow you to even avoid using tables if you wish. I think I should write an article on writing standards-compliant .NET code since so many people ask about it and can't seem to find the right resources. Francesco On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 10:29:08 -, Kornel Lesinski [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 10:06:12 -, Peter Goddard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've recently had a task to write stylesheet for ASP.Net page and I was really shocked how BAD that code is. Coder that wrote that didn't have any idea of web standards and he said that it's generally impossible to make this code cleaner. Is it really? Can DataGrids have th for headers? Do labels have to be span class=label? Does it have to insert nbsp; everywhere? Does it have to make javascript: urls? Most asp.net+standards articles describe lengthy and hacky ways to force ASP to output XHTML, but maybe there is a simple way just to make it semantic HTML4 Strict? Francesco Sanfilippo --- Blackcoil Productions - http://blackcoil.com URL123 Link Service - http://url123.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] The Designer Is Dead, Long Live The Designer!
Hey All, I thought this was an interesting article from Digital Web Magazine: http://www.digital-web.com/articles/the_designer_is_dead/ It speaks of the importance of design and its effects on usability and *perceived* usability. Mani Sheriar Sheriar Designs | www.ManiSheriar.com 925|914.0741 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] What's up with Mac IE and floats?
Philippe Wittenbergh wrote: the problem is the clear:left on you #container which is kind of inherited in IE Mac See http://www.l-c-n.com/IE5tests/float2misc/#fm002 Awesome! That did it. Thanks a ton! No need for other responses. I'm not even quite sure why I had the clear:left on the container anyway. Thanks for the article. I'll study it this weekend. Happy Member, Shane Helm sonzeDesignStudio www.sonze.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] need explanation on this css element please
On 29 Jan 2005, at 5:12 am, Rob Mientjes wrote:
*html li {padding:0;margin:0;}
It's the 'star html' hack, which is only parsed by IE. IE thinks
there's another element 'above' html. There isn't, but hey.
also, I noticed this doesn't validate by w3c, but I see it a lot
It should validate. Get rid of the space.
It should be * html rest-of-selector {property:value}
Note the space between the * and html.
Philippe
---/---
Philippe Wittenbergh
now live : http://emps.l-c-n.com/
code | design | web projects : http://www.l-c-n.com/
IE5 Mac bugs and oddities : http://www.l-c-n.com/IE5tests/
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[WSG] CSS / JavaScript Problem
Anybody have a solution for the following:
I have a default style for a element:
#s1 {height: 215px;}
In some of the pages I need to update this value to auto, and I use
!important setting to enforce this, via a updates.css file:
#s1 {height: auto !important;}
Now here is the problem:
I now have to look at 2 elements, via JavaScript, in the doc, check which
has the highest high value and assign that value to both elements. No matter
what value I assign to both elements, the previous !important setting
overrides the new values.
Is there any way I can override the !important setting via JavaScript?
I need a solution quite urgent, and will keep digging into this myself, but
if anybody knows how, I would really appreciate this.
Thanks in advance!
Kind Regards
Jacobus van Niekerk
Creative Consultant
web: http://www.catics.com/ | http://www.freelancecontractors.com
tel: + 27 21 982 7805
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