Re: Re; Re: [WSG] the correct use.

[Lachlan Hunt]

Peter Firminger wrote:
The much maligned  element is essential in our work. Sometimes we're not 
just doing poetry and addresses.


Take for example the archive page of this very message (the one I'm replying 
to).

http://webstandardsgroup.org/manage/archive.cfm?uid=C69ACE78-BB9A-910B-E6CC1A4A59BDF099

How else would I accurately display Lachlan's example below without . I 
don't agree that  is the answer because this may well force the 
page into breaking due to width. Pre is pretty powerful and can break a layout 
very quickly if something unexpected is forced into it.


For plain-text e-mails which are sent by behaving mail clients with 
lines wrapped between 72 and 80 characters (preferably with 
format=flowed set as well), then pre is perfectly safe.  Although, 
unfortunately, because not all mail clients are well behaved (in fact, 
some are broken beyond belief), I agree it can be problematic in some cases.


However, there are various solutions you could try.

---

1. Process the e-mail before it's output so that line breaks are 
automatically inserted into long lines, being careful not to break lines 
wrongly, such as a really long URI, for example.


In other words, process it according to the algorithm in section 4.1 of 
RFC 3676 and then wrap lines as though you were outputting to a viewport 
80 characters wide.  You could even markup things like the signature, 
quoted text, etc. and render them in different colours, add excerpt bars 
to the quotes, etc.


If format=flowed isn't specified, then you could either process it 
according to the same algorithm and just hope it doesn't break anything, 
or just assume the lines would be wrapped relatively short already 
(which, in my experience, is usually the case) and output as-is.


---

2. Take the approach that the W3C have with their mailing list archives.
http://www.w3.org/StyleSheets/Mail/message.css

pre {
  white-space: pre-wrap;   /* css-3 */
  white-space: -moz-pre-wrap;  /* Mozilla, since 1999 */
  white-space: -pre-wrap;  /* Opera 4-6 */
  white-space: -o-pre-wrap;/* Opera 7 */
  word-wrap: break-word;   /* Internet Explorer 5.5+; makes the CSS 
invalid :( */

 }

This is an example of an e-mail sent by a mail client that isn't 
well-behaved.

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2006Jan/
(take a look at the source and notice how there are extremely long lines 
in there that should have been wrapped by the sender's mail client, but 
weren't)


Of all the Windows and Mac browsers I tested, OmniWeb is the only one 
that didn't wrap the text and Safari did something strange by wrapping 
it anywhere in the line, not just whitespace (and other allowed 
line-breaking points), but it was still readable.


---

There may even be other solutions I haven't thought of.  #2 would be the 
easiest to implement, but suffers from some browser limitations.  #1 is 
more difficult, but doesn't suffer from any browser limitations because 
the line wrapping is done server side.


But, one thing I'm sure of is that  is the most semantically 
correct choice for marking up plain-text formatted e-mails.  It also 
defaults to a monospace font, which really should be used for plain-text 
e-mails and solves the problems with multiple consecutive spaces, often 
used for indentation.


Take the e-mail you linked to in the archive above.  I used spaces to 
indent the markup in the street address markup, yet it does not appear 
indented in the archive.  That's particularly important for mailing 
lists like this where markup examples are quite common and indentation 
increases readability, which is currently lost in the archive pages.


--
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/

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Re: Re; Re: [WSG] the correct use.

[Joshua Street]

Nope. Only, I'd add that there are existing apps out there that will
fall into various server-side languages to do intelligent replacement
of linebreaks -> paragraphs, smart quotes, etc. KSES, used by
WordPress (or at least it used to be) is one such for the PHP langauge
( http://sourceforge.net/projects/kses ) -- and I'm sure there are
others. I don't think we should excuse server-side pages in that
respect altogether, but generally agree with your sentiment.

Josh

On 1/14/06, Peter Firminger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The much maligned  element is essential in our work. Sometimes we're not
> just doing poetry and addresses.
>
> Take for example the archive page of this very message (the one I'm replying
> to).
> http://webstandardsgroup.org/manage/archive.cfm?uid=C69ACE78-BB9A-910B-E6CC1A4A59BDF099
>
> How else would I accurately display Lachlan's example below without . I
> don't agree that  is the answer because this may well force the
> page into breaking due to width. Pre is pretty powerful and can break a layout
> very quickly if something unexpected is forced into it.
>
> _
>
> The common usage to separate paragraphs like this is wrong:
>
> 
> paragraph 1
> 
> paragraph 2
> 
> paragraph 3
> 
>
> In most cases, if you ever get the feeling to use 2 consecutive s,
> _
>
>
> (here it is in case you don't want to look at the archive)
>
> _
>
> The common usage to separate paragraphs like this is wrong:
> 
> 

> paragraph 1

> 

> paragraph 2

> 

> paragraph 3
> 
> 
> In most cases, if you ever get the feeling to use 2 consecutive 
> 
s,
> 
> _
>
> I could replace  with  (and I usually do... There was a
> reason I didn't in this case but I can't recall now)
>
> Remember, we are not marking this up by hand, we have to make sure it always
> works no matter what is thrown into it as content. I get the feeling that a
> lot of the time people focus too much on what is hand coded in static HTML
> pages (and therefore very predictable) when making assumptions like " is
> bad" and even including  as bad.
>
> Broaden your view to what may be churned out of a CMS or other server-based
> system (a web-mail interface etc.)
>
> A line break is semantic in my view. In the case of the aformentioned page, I
> believe it is very much like the poetry example. I'm expected to display the
> email the same as it was written (within the limitations of the page
> boundaries).
>
> In this context, any arguments?
>
> P
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RE: Re; Re: [WSG] the correct use.

[Peter Firminger]

The much maligned  element is essential in our work. Sometimes we're not 
just doing poetry and addresses.

Take for example the archive page of this very message (the one I'm replying 
to).
http://webstandardsgroup.org/manage/archive.cfm?uid=C69ACE78-BB9A-910B-E6CC1A4A59BDF099

How else would I accurately display Lachlan's example below without . I 
don't agree that  is the answer because this may well force the 
page into breaking due to width. Pre is pretty powerful and can break a layout 
very quickly if something unexpected is forced into it.

_

The common usage to separate paragraphs like this is wrong:


paragraph 1

paragraph 2

paragraph 3


In most cases, if you ever get the feeling to use 2 consecutive s,
_


(here it is in case you don't want to look at the archive)

_

The common usage to separate paragraphs like this is wrong:


paragraph 1



paragraph 2



paragraph 3


In most cases, if you ever get the feeling to use 2 consecutive 

s, 

_

I could replace  with  (and I usually do... There was a 
reason I didn't in this case but I can't recall now)

Remember, we are not marking this up by hand, we have to make sure it always 
works no matter what is thrown into it as content. I get the feeling that a 
lot of the time people focus too much on what is hand coded in static HTML 
pages (and therefore very predictable) when making assumptions like " is 
bad" and even including  as bad.

Broaden your view to what may be churned out of a CMS or other server-based 
system (a web-mail interface etc.)

A line break is semantic in my view. In the case of the aformentioned page, I 
believe it is very much like the poetry example. I'm expected to display the 
email the same as it was written (within the limitations of the page 
boundaries).

In this context, any arguments?

P


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Re: Re; Re: [WSG] the correct use.

[Kat]

I want to ask something that's on the same line as the original poster, 
but a little bit in another direction.

Sorry!




But, for example, marking up a postal address, a poem or something 
where line breaks are semantically important, then the use of  is ok.



   123 George Street,
   Sydney NSW 2000
   Australia




For poems and addresses, wouldn't the  element be OK as well? 
Particularly for poems where the use of space both before and after is 
important?


so:

  123 George Street,
  Sydney NSW 2000
  Australia


?

Kat

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Re: Tabluar forms WAS: Re: [WSG] the correct use.

[Joshua Street]

Yep, the fieldset is an appropriate way of grouping, but doesn't (so
far as I'm aware) allow for the kind of visual styling that is
required (by designers who don't think in terms of markup) for some
forms.


Excuse the following ASCII art:
 
| Please select  |   |
| yes or no from | X Yes |
| the adjacent   | X No  |
| radio buttons  |   |
 

That's obviously different from
Name: , which
could be styled as

 
| Name:   [INPUT]|
 

without too much difficulty.

If you're following the ASCII (try pasting into Notepad if you have a
webmail client that doesn't like fixed-width text!), the text is
aligning but floating off to the side: fairly easy with a label, as it
may contain the input field, but harder with
notoriously-difficult-to-style fieldset elements containing multiple
options -- because, as you rightly say, it is not only impossible, but
also illogical for a label element to contain two input fields --, as
with the radio buttons example.

Tables simplify the whole procedure remarkably, I'm just wary of using
a table anywhere that it's impossible to use , which seems a
fair benchmark of what is most definitely a table. Maybe not... your
example's use of the scope attribute makes it all seem remarkably
sensible!

Thanks,
Josh

On 1/14/06, Patrick H. Lauke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Joshua Street wrote:
>
> > This one has always confused me. There is a linear relationship
> > between a field's label and the field proper, yes, but how does one
> > mark that up as a table?
>
> I believe Lachlan was referring to a construct like
>
> 
>  Name
>  
> 
>
>  > SHOULD that be marked up as a table?
>
> That's one of those debatable subjects...mostly comes down to your
> particular interpretation of the structural/semantic nature of tables
> and forms.
> For my own part, I sit on the fence on this one...
>
> > I consider, in that case,  to be mostly adequate, but
> > there are situations where it is not (for example, where is the
> > semantic sense in associating one label with two fields, as is the
> > case wherever input type="radio" is used).
>
> You've lost me there. Do you mean in general, or when using a table to
> lay out a form? In general, the correct markup would be along the lines of:
>
> 
>  What's your favourite colour?
>
>  
>  black
>
>  
>  white
> 
>
> or variations where you can, for instance, wrap the input inside the
> label itself...but, for "belt and braces", also keep the label's for
> attribute and the input's id in there:
>
>  id="colour_black" value="black" /> black
>
> A label can't be associated with more than one form control (though a
> form control may be targetted by separate, discrete label elements, all
> with the same for attribute pointing at the form control's id).
>
> --
> Patrick H. Lauke
> __
> re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
> [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
> www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
> http://redux.deviantart.com
> __
> Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
> http://webstandards.org/
> __
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Re: Tabluar forms WAS: Re: [WSG] the correct use.

[Patrick H. Lauke]

Joshua Street wrote:


This one has always confused me. There is a linear relationship
between a field's label and the field proper, yes, but how does one
mark that up as a table?


I believe Lachlan was referring to a construct like


Name



> SHOULD that be marked up as a table?

That's one of those debatable subjects...mostly comes down to your 
particular interpretation of the structural/semantic nature of tables 
and forms.

For my own part, I sit on the fence on this one...


I consider, in that case,  to be mostly adequate, but
there are situations where it is not (for example, where is the
semantic sense in associating one label with two fields, as is the
case wherever input type="radio" is used).


You've lost me there. Do you mean in general, or when using a table to
lay out a form? In general, the correct markup would be along the lines of:


What's your favourite colour?


black


white


or variations where you can, for instance, wrap the input inside the 
label itself...but, for "belt and braces", also keep the label's for 
attribute and the input's id in there:


id="colour_black" value="black" /> black


A label can't be associated with more than one form control (though a 
form control may be targetted by separate, discrete label elements, all 
with the same for attribute pointing at the form control's id).


--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__
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Tabluar forms WAS: Re: [WSG] the correct use.

[Joshua Street]

On 1/14/06, Lachlan Hunt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Tables for forms is ok in some cases, forms can be considered tabular.

This one has always confused me. There is a linear relationship
between a field's label and the field proper, yes, but how does one
mark that up as a table? SHOULD that be marked up as a table?

I consider, in that case,  to be mostly adequate, but
there are situations where it is not (for example, where is the
semantic sense in associating one label with two fields, as is the
case wherever input type="radio" is used). Recently, I've used a
definition list (as this defines a relationship between two items
better than most other element combinations could), but it feels
hackish and is horrendously difficult to style consistently.

Because I was trying to style it to appear as a table would.

If I were to style it as a table, then I'd consider the key to be
, and the value to be ... but of course, this doesn't work
terribly well.

Has anyone created (or does anyone know of) a resource that explains
the relationship between/best practices for forms/tables?

Regards,
Josh Street
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Re: Re; Re: [WSG] the correct use.

[Lachlan Hunt]

Alvaro Mouriño wrote:

So many people think that  should be avoided, but only for text
layout or for the entire document?


It's important not to get confused, nor put weight into such statements, 
they're usually either stated too broadly just plain wrong.   can be 
used for explicit line breaks in text where it is semantically relevant, 
but it should not be used, for example, to increase vertical whitespace 
between paragraphs or other sections of content.


The common usage to separate paragraphs like this is wrong:


paragraph 1

paragraph 2

paragraph 3


In most cases, if you ever get the feeling to use 2 consecutive s, 
then you're most likely using it wrongly.


But, for example, marking up a postal address, a poem or something where 
line breaks are semantically important, then the use of  is ok.



   123 George Street,
   Sydney NSW 2000
   Australia



Because I've been so tempted to use tables when formatting a form, and
now I read that br tags should not be used...


Tables for forms is ok in some cases, forms can be considered tabular.


And I think that creating a unique CSS class with the absolute position for each
control is as not-right as using tables.


Using a class name to describe presentation is no better than using 
presentational elements and using absolute positioning for each form 
field and label would be overkill.  However, I'm not sure what this has 
to do with the discussion of  elements.


--
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/

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Re: Re; Re: [WSG] the correct use.

[Alvaro Mouriño]

So many people think that  should be avoided, but only for text
layout or for the entire document?
Because I've been so tempted to use tables when formatting a form, and
now I read that br tags should not be used... And I think that
creating a unique CSS class with the absolute position for each
control is as not-right as using tables.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Clarify this for me please.

AlvAro

-
2006/1/13, denAnden.dk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>  Hi,
>
> Paul  Wrote.
> > 
> > Just
> > get
> > over
> > it
> > and
> > break
> > the
> > damn
> > lines
> > !
> > 
>
> :)
>
> As long at the use of the br- tag is included in the standards, and it
> works, i can se no reason not to use it.
>
> But can anyone think of an argument not to remove the tag, if the goal is a
> pure semantical mark up language?
>
> W/R
> Jes
>
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>
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Re: Re; Re: [WSG] the correct use.

[denAnden.dk]

Hi,

Paul  Wrote.


Just
get
over
it
and
break
the
damn
lines
!



:)

As long at the use of the br- tag is included in the standards, and it 
works, i can se no reason not to use it.


But can anyone think of an argument not to remove the tag, if the goal is a 
pure semantical mark up language?


W/R
Jes

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Re: Re; Re: [WSG] the correct use.

[Paul Novitski]

At 01:26 PM 1/13/2006, denAnden.dk wrote:
in the sence that in address example,  the meaning a Br-tag would 
carrie could instead be carried by commas or seperate p tags, which 
would be more correct and should be used?



This is one of those points we'll never all agree on but love to 
argue.  Personally I think the use of BR to separate address lines is 
problematic, is functioning as a presentational element, and should 
Most Properly be replaced by 
individually tagged elements.


This becomes most clear when presenting addresses from a variety of nations:

name
address
city  province
postal code
or:
name
address
city  province  postal code
or:
name
address
county
city  postal code
or:
name
address
city  county  postal code
or:
name
address
postal code  city  province
or:
name
address
postal code  city
province
or:
province
postal code  city
address
name

It's not merely where the lines break but also the sequence of 
address elements that varies from place to place, clarifying the fact 
that an address is an ordered sequence of semantically unique 
elements and isn't just some kind of postal blank verse.


I suspect that most of us who still mark up addresses with BR tags do 
so because we feel silly adding so much bloody markup to what's 
ordinarily a very spare text block.



Just
get
over
it
and
break
the
damn
lines
!


Paul 


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RE: [WSG] Active Links

[Helmut Granda]

1)
I am using DW Templates and I have locked the menu to avoid having to
recreate every time there is a menu update.

Also the site will be updated with Contribute so the user will be able to
add/delete items from the menu and they might not know how to apply a
class/id attribute to the item they are adding.

2)
That sounds like a good solution, I definitely will look into that, that way
I don't have to worry about the user forgetting to add the class/id
attribute.

Thanks!


...helmut

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Justin Carter
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 4:17 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Active Links

On 1/14/06, Helmut Granda <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Thanks for the tips, unfortunately no Server Side technology can be used,
> just static HTML files.

If the pages must be static then you only have two options that I can
think of...

1) Use a "current" class (or id) on the navigation element that
corresponds to the current page (something that you already said you
dont want to do). If you're maintaining all these pages by hand then
why is one extra attribute going to hurt?
2) Use JavaScript to traverse the element containing the navigation to
find the achor tags href attribute which matches the page which is
currently being viewed (this would be done unobtrusively of course,
and will do nothing for browsers without JavaScript enabled, leaving
non-JavaScript enabled browsers without a solution for the problem
you're trying to solve).

Hope that helps. Maybe someone else can suggest another idea...

--carter
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Re: [WSG] Active Links

[Justin Carter]

On 1/14/06, Helmut Granda <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Thanks for the tips, unfortunately no Server Side technology can be used,
> just static HTML files.

If the pages must be static then you only have two options that I can
think of...

1) Use a "current" class (or id) on the navigation element that
corresponds to the current page (something that you already said you
dont want to do). If you're maintaining all these pages by hand then
why is one extra attribute going to hurt?
2) Use JavaScript to traverse the element containing the navigation to
find the achor tags href attribute which matches the page which is
currently being viewed (this would be done unobtrusively of course,
and will do nothing for browsers without JavaScript enabled, leaving
non-JavaScript enabled browsers without a solution for the problem
you're trying to solve).

Hope that helps. Maybe someone else can suggest another idea...

--carter
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Re; Re: [WSG] the correct use.

[denAnden.dk]

Thank you Christian and Kenny,

Just one clarification,

Kenny Wrote "In these cases
(especially poems), the line break is important to the content itself,
not just how you would like it to be displayed."

so everything can be argued to be correct semantical use of the -tag, if 
we claim it to carrie meaning?


in the sence that in address example,  the meaning a Br-tag would carrie 
could instead be carried by commas or seperate p tags, which would be more 
correct and should be used?


the poem example is interesting, (arts meet logic), then it becomes even 
more fuzzy,

(the poem would also allow the use of invisible text to do the job)

But got I working with CSS.  (thank you)

It seems to me, the solution, like you say Kenny,  is to avoid all use of 
the br tag in all but the poem case.?


W/R

Jes. 


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Re: [WSG] the correct use.

[Kenny Graham]

> is it recomended outside p-tags for extra lineshifts?

This is best done by adding margins or padding to the paragraphs.
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Re: [WSG] the correct use.

[Kenny Graham]

Most common uses of  can and should be replaced by CSS, as
they're presentational.  Some examples of semantic use of  are to
seperate lines of a poem, lines of an address, etc.  In these cases
(especially poems), the line break is important to the content itself,
not just how you would like it to be displayed.
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Re: [WSG] Safari Lightening Entire Background Image

[Jack Kennard]

Nick Would also happen if there was no-repeat of the image ?

Nick Cowie wrote:

My suggestion it has something to do with the two background images 
involved:

html {
min-height:100%;
margin-bottom:1px;
background:url(../_images/bg2.jpg);
}
body {
background:url(../_images/bg.jpg) repeat-x top;
position:relative;
(snip)
}

Safari has a bug which can cause background images to behave badly (if 
the background image is  larger than the container or set to repeat), 
the background image will overflow the container they are the 
background for.


I describe here - halfway down the page - see trouble with safari
http://nickcowie.com/2005/elastic-faux-columns/

I would remove background:url(../_images/bg.jpg) repeat-x top; from 
body  and see if that resolves the issue





--
Nick Cowie
http://nickcowie.com



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Web Designer
http://www.WebSailingDesigns.com
770 437-1267
770 933-2000 x233

Stay up to date with the latest travel
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Re: [WSG] the correct use.

[Christian Montoya]

On 1/13/06, denAnden.dk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> what is the correct use of the br-tag?
>
> is it permitted inside p-tags to break lines?
> is it recomended outside p-tags for extra lineshifts?
>
> what are the semantical issues with the br-tag?

br can be used in both cases.

The semantic issues are that the br tag possesses no semantics at all.
It doesn't mean anything, and so it is purely presentational markup.

The only places I use br are:

- in forms, where you need a line break always between labels and inputs
- after floated divs so you can apply "clear:both" to force the divs
to be contained

Neither of these are similar to your examples. I think if you find
yourself using br's inside paragraphs, then you probably need to
rethink the semantics of the text. Maybe you should make two
paragraphs, or wrap the text in < pre > if it is preformatted, like a
poem.

Outside of paragraphs you can use margins in css to add more whitespace.

--
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com
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[WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org

[Monica Berko]

I am on leave, returning on the 23rd January.

Please contact David Wong ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) if the matter is urgent.
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[WSG] the correct use.

[denAnden.dk]

Hallo sweet people. 

a question; 


what is the correct use of the br-tag?

is it permitted inside p-tags to break lines?
is it recomended outside p-tags for extra lineshifts?

what are the semantical issues with the br-tag?


Thank you,  in advance, 


Jes

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Re: [WSG] Safari Lightening Entire Background Image - FIXED

[Mani Sheriar]

> So the problem was resolved with the re-saved images alone, 
>or in concert with changes to the CSS?

No change to the CSS.  This has me baffled as I had already tried resaving
all the images but I don't really have the time to figure it all out - I'm
just thanking the web design gods that it all worked out and going about my
merry way.  ;o)

Mani Sheriar
Founder, Sheriar Designs
www.ManiSheriar.com  | 925.914.0741
 


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Re: [WSG] pdf graphics

[Peter J. Farrell]

Marilyn Langfeld said the following on 1/13/2006 9:37 AM:

> Yes, the latest version of Photoshop saves to .jpg, .gif. png .ico 
> (if you install a plug-in, one of which is donationware), as well as 
> having a Save for web export in .jpg, .gif, .png-8, .png-24 and WBMP 
> that helps you to optimize the result for the Web).

I find it funny that almost everyone forgot Macromedia Fireworks - as a
full-time programmer and not a very good graphic artistthis program
is invaluable!

-- 
Peter J. Farrell :: Maestro Publishing
http://blog.maestropublishing.com

Rooibos Generator - Version 2.1
Create boilerplate beans and transfer objects for ColdFusion!
http://rooibos.maestropublishing.com/

- Member Team Mach-II
- Member Team Fusion

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Re: [WSG] semantic way to use subscript or superscript

[dszady]

Thank you.

Patrick H. Lauke wrote:

dszady wrote:

I also remember a post saying not to use the two elements but it 
didn't mention why.



In my opinion, sub and sup have a primarily visual/presentational 
nature, rather than a semantic one. I'm still puzzled as to why they're 
still included in the specs, which does nothing to clarify the *meaning* 
of superscript and subscript...only their visual rendering.

http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/text.html#h-9.2.3

Even the three examples given are flawed, IMHO: the first two should 
arguably not be marked up in HTML at all, but via a more appropriate 
(though admittedly not universally supported) one like CML and MathML, 
respectively; the third is also just a matter of presentation, and could 
possibly be marked up a lot better via


Mlle (with an 
appropriate style defined for the span to make it visually render as 
superscript).


It's the same as bold and italic still being included in the spec...

P




--
°¿° dszady; a.k.a. Daryl A. Szady
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Re: [WSG] pdf graphics

[Marilyn Langfeld]

On Jan 13, 2006, at 10:14 AM, Conyers, Dwayne, Mr [C] wrote:


You can export JPG out of Adobe right?



Yes, the latest version of Photoshop saves to .jpg, .gif. png .ico  
(if you install a plug-in, one of which is donationware), as well as  
having a Save for web export in .jpg, .gif, .png-8, .png-24 and WBMP  
that helps you to optimize the result for the Web).


The newest Illustrator also has a Save for Web, but I prefer to use  
Photoshop. You can also open and save to .svg from Illustrator. I've  
been working with Textorizer ( http://www.flickr.com/photos/ 
langfeldesigns/sets/1691963/ ) which is outputs .svg which I've  
opened and manipulated in Illustrator.


Best regards,

Marilyn Langfeld
Langfeldesigns
http://www.langfeldesigns.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
+1.301.598.3300 business phone
+1.301.598.0532 fax
+1.202.390.8847 mobile



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Re: [WSG] Safari Lightening Entire Background Image - FIXED

[Chris Kennon]

Hi,

So the problem was resolved with the re-saved images alone, or in  
concert with changes to the CSS?


Respectfully,
Christopher Kennon
Principal & Creative Director -Bushidodeep
www.bushidodeep.com


On Jan 12, 2006, at 6:35 PM, Mani Sheriar wrote:

Thanks all, especially Nick Cowie who seemed to really look into  
this thing!


I don’t know how I did it … but it’s fixed.  I just resaved all the  
images

AGAIN and somehow the problem went away.  What a strange experience.

Anyway … many thanks again.  =)

Mani Sheriar
Founder, Sheriar Designs
www.ManiSheriar.com  | 925.914.0741



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Re: [WSG] pdf graphics

[Bruce]

Thanks all who answered.
I have to admit I never knew photoshop would open pdf.
Unbelievable perhaps, but nontheless...
Even version 5.5 opened tham and I was able to save as jpg.
Thanks!

Bruce Prochnau
BKDesign
- Original Message - 
From: "Mark Desmet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 9:56 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] pdf graphics


> On Friday 13 January 2006 08:50 am, Joseph R. B. Taylor wrote:
> GIMP is a fine program, but no replacement for Photoshop, it is just not
as
> robust.
>
> Mark Desmet
>
> > This may be a bit off-topic, but I saw a few people mentioning GIMP.
> > I'm a long time Photoshop user (since version 5.0), and Photoshop has
> > been one of the excuses for staying a Windows user.
> >
> > Has anyone been a longtime Photoshop user and switched to GIMP, and not
> > looked back?
> >
> > Maybe just email me if this is the case rather than pollute the list
> > anymore than I just have.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Joseph R. B. Taylor
> > Sites by Joe, LLC
> > http://sitesbyjoe.com
> > (609)335-3076
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > Marilyn Langfeld wrote:
> > > On Jan 13, 2006, at 6:59 AM, kvnmcwebn wrote:
> > >> are the graphics vectors?
> > >> Opening from Adobe illustrator would
> > >> keep everything nice and editable.
> > >> -kvnmcwebn
> > >
> > > I second trying Illustrator first, Photoshop next. Recent versions of
> > > both will open the files. Illustrator's underlying format is pdf, so
> > > you can almost always open a pdf with Illustrator, then reestablish
> > > layers yourself if you have to and change measurements to pixels and
> > > make the size 100% or an even multiple of the pixel size you want--
> > > fonts may be a problem if you don't have the same ones on your
machine
> > > that were used in the pdf.
> > >
> > > Photoshop has a pdf import dialog box that allows you to decide on
the
> > > page if it's multipage pdf, ppi, rgb vs cmyk, size. There's no  layer
> > > support if the original was made in InDesign or Quark, but  layers may
> > > transfer if the graphic was made in a new version of  Illustrator.
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > >
> > > Marilyn Langfeld
> > > Langfeldesigns
> > > http://www.langfeldesigns.com
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >
> > > **
> > > The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> > >
> > > See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> > > for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> > > **
> >
> > **
> > The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> >
> >  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> >  for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> > **
> **
> The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
>
>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>  for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> **
>
>

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RE: [WSG] pdf graphics

[Conyers, Dwayne, Mr [C]]

Marilyn Langfeld wrote:

> Photoshop has a pdf import dialog box that allows you to decide on  
> the page if it's multipage pdf, ppi, rgb vs cmyk, size. 


You can export JPG out of Adobe right?

Worst case -- do an  +  and paste into Photoshop.  Or,
perhaps a utility like SnagIt?




--
Dwacon
http://dwacon.blogspot.com
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RE: [WSG] Active Links

[Helmut Granda]

Thanks for the tips, unfortunately no Server Side technology can be used,
just static HTML files.

Thanks for the thought though.

...helmut
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Terrence Wood
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 3:45 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] Active Links


Helmut Granda said:
> What I am trying to achieve is this:
> http://www.alistapart.com/articles/keepingcurrent/
> but without using an ID or a class.

What server side language do you have support for? Creating navigation
like the php example and including it with your pages is the best way to
achieve what you want.

If you don't have PHP, then you will probably at least have SSI as part of
the server. Let us know and we can proced from there.


kind regards
Terrence Wood.

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Re: [WSG] pdf graphics

[Mark Desmet]

On Friday 13 January 2006 08:50 am, Joseph R. B. Taylor wrote:
GIMP is a fine program, but no replacement for Photoshop, it is just not as 
robust.

Mark Desmet

> This may be a bit off-topic, but I saw a few people mentioning GIMP.
> I'm a long time Photoshop user (since version 5.0), and Photoshop has
> been one of the excuses for staying a Windows user.
>
> Has anyone been a longtime Photoshop user and switched to GIMP, and not
> looked back?
>
> Maybe just email me if this is the case rather than pollute the list
> anymore than I just have.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Joseph R. B. Taylor
> Sites by Joe, LLC
> http://sitesbyjoe.com
> (609)335-3076
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Marilyn Langfeld wrote:
> > On Jan 13, 2006, at 6:59 AM, kvnmcwebn wrote:
> >> are the graphics vectors?
> >> Opening from Adobe illustrator would
> >> keep everything nice and editable.
> >> -kvnmcwebn
> >
> > I second trying Illustrator first, Photoshop next. Recent versions of
> > both will open the files. Illustrator's underlying format is pdf, so
> > you can almost always open a pdf with Illustrator, then reestablish
> > layers yourself if you have to and change measurements to pixels and
> > make the size 100% or an even multiple of the pixel size you want--
> > fonts may be a problem if you don't have the same ones on your  machine
> > that were used in the pdf.
> >
> > Photoshop has a pdf import dialog box that allows you to decide on  the
> > page if it's multipage pdf, ppi, rgb vs cmyk, size. There's no  layer
> > support if the original was made in InDesign or Quark, but  layers may
> > transfer if the graphic was made in a new version of  Illustrator.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Marilyn Langfeld
> > Langfeldesigns
> > http://www.langfeldesigns.com
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > **
> > The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> >
> > See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> > for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> > **
>
> **
> The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
>
>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>  for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> **
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Re: [WSG] pdf graphics

[Joseph R. B. Taylor]

This may be a bit off-topic, but I saw a few people mentioning GIMP. 
I'm a long time Photoshop user (since version 5.0), and Photoshop has 
been one of the excuses for staying a Windows user.


Has anyone been a longtime Photoshop user and switched to GIMP, and not 
looked back?


Maybe just email me if this is the case rather than pollute the list 
anymore than I just have.


Thanks,

Joseph R. B. Taylor
Sites by Joe, LLC
http://sitesbyjoe.com
(609)335-3076
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Marilyn Langfeld wrote:

On Jan 13, 2006, at 6:59 AM, kvnmcwebn wrote:


are the graphics vectors?
Opening from Adobe illustrator would
keep everything nice and editable.
-kvnmcwebn




I second trying Illustrator first, Photoshop next. Recent versions of  
both will open the files. Illustrator's underlying format is pdf, so  
you can almost always open a pdf with Illustrator, then reestablish  
layers yourself if you have to and change measurements to pixels and  
make the size 100% or an even multiple of the pixel size you want-- 
fonts may be a problem if you don't have the same ones on your  machine 
that were used in the pdf.


Photoshop has a pdf import dialog box that allows you to decide on  the 
page if it's multipage pdf, ppi, rgb vs cmyk, size. There's no  layer 
support if the original was made in InDesign or Quark, but  layers may  
transfer if the graphic was made in a new version of  Illustrator.


Best regards,

Marilyn Langfeld
Langfeldesigns
http://www.langfeldesigns.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [WSG] pdf graphics

[Marilyn Langfeld]

On Jan 13, 2006, at 6:59 AM, kvnmcwebn wrote:

are the graphics vectors?
Opening from Adobe illustrator would
keep everything nice and editable.
-kvnmcwebn



I second trying Illustrator first, Photoshop next. Recent versions of  
both will open the files. Illustrator's underlying format is pdf, so  
you can almost always open a pdf with Illustrator, then reestablish  
layers yourself if you have to and change measurements to pixels and  
make the size 100% or an even multiple of the pixel size you want-- 
fonts may be a problem if you don't have the same ones on your  
machine that were used in the pdf.


Photoshop has a pdf import dialog box that allows you to decide on  
the page if it's multipage pdf, ppi, rgb vs cmyk, size. There's no  
layer support if the original was made in InDesign or Quark, but  
layers may  transfer if the graphic was made in a new version of  
Illustrator.


Best regards,

Marilyn Langfeld
Langfeldesigns
http://www.langfeldesigns.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [WSG] pdf graphics

[���]

Christian Peper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  Bruce wrote:> Hi all,> > I was pleased recently to get a rather large project. It was also nice that> they were sending the graphics for the site design.> Today I got them, in pdf format!> > What do you do in a situation like this? I need them for the design, menu> items and backgrounds...What about PDF2HTML convertors?http://sourceforge.net/projects/pdftohtml/free, open source but there are many more.Hope this helps,Chris.**The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmfor some hints on posting to the list & getting
 help**dont send to me any masseges again 
		Yahoo! Photos 
Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever.

Re: [WSG] Site Check - ShetlandCoffee.com

[���]

Christian Peper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  David Nicol wrote:> I'd appreciate it very much if you could take a quick look at:> http://www.shetlandcoffee.com/If you're on the home page, hovering above the top left logo won't do anything.If you go to About Us, both the top *and* bottom section of the logo link you back to the home page. But the middle section is clear. That's weird but not disturbing. It's the same on all pages I checked.I'm using FF 1.0.7 on OpenSUSE 10.0 stable (Linux).Very nice site otherwise. Clean, crisp design that makes me want to have a cup of the black gold. :)Chris.**The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmfor some
 hints on posting to the list & getting help**dont send to me any masseges again 
	
		Yahoo! Photos 
Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP.

RE: [WSG] pdf graphics

[kvnmcwebn]

are the graphics vectors?
Opening from Adobe illustrator would 
keep everything nice and editable.
-kvnmcwebn


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Re: [WSG] pdf graphics

[Christian Peper]

Bruce wrote:

Hi all,

I was pleased recently to get a rather large project. It was also nice that
they were sending the graphics for the site design.
Today I got them, in pdf format!

What do you do in a situation like this? I need them for the design, menu
items and backgrounds...

What about PDF2HTML convertors?
http://sourceforge.net/projects/pdftohtml/

free, open source but there are many more.
Hope this helps,
Chris.
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Re: [WSG] Site Check - ShetlandCoffee.com

[Christian Peper]

David Nicol wrote:
 > I'd appreciate it very much if you could take a quick look at:

http://www.shetlandcoffee.com/


If you're on the home page, hovering above the top left logo won't do 
anything.
If you go to About Us, both the top *and* bottom section of the logo 
link you back to the home page. But the middle section is clear. That's 
weird but not disturbing. It's the same on all pages I checked.


I'm using FF 1.0.7 on OpenSUSE 10.0 stable (Linux).

Very nice site otherwise. Clean, crisp design that makes me want to have 
a cup of the black gold. :)

Chris.
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Re: [WSG] pdf graphics

[Lachlan Hunt]

Bruce wrote:

I was pleased recently to get a rather large project. It was also nice that
they were sending the graphics for the site design.
Today I got them, in pdf format!


LOL!


I wish all pdf files would get lost, feel they have no place on the web.


They do have their place on the web, but they're certainly not for 
sending graphics.



What do you do in a situation like this? I need them for the design, menu
items and backgrounds...


I've recieved the wrong file format from clients previously, it usually 
just takes a quick e-mail to get the right ones from them.  Just ask for 
the original image files, they should have them in a format like 
suitable for Photoshop, Fireworks, CorelDraw, GIMP, or whatever app they 
used to create them.


--
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/

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RE: [WSG] pdf graphics

[Web Man Walking]

You could always screen grab if you have to? 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Nic
Sent: 13 January 2006 10:17
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] pdf graphics

If you don't have the full version of Acrobat, you're probably SOL...

In a case like this, you ought to ask the client again for a USABLE file.
If you didn't specify the file formats required in the contract, then you
may be in for trouble.

I've had a nightmare deal with someone on a project like that a few months
back.  

I wish you luck!

Nic

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Re: [WSG] pdf graphics

[Joshua Street]

Well, if Photoshop won't open them, the GIMP certainly can. Then it's
just cutting it apart like you would had you received any other flat
file, I suppose! Of course, if you need backgrounds then a kindly
worded email to the client requesting the source file with layers,
etc., would probably be the best move.

I've had designers send me flat files all the time, because they think
that web design is just a matter of duplicating what they've created,
like we were printers or something ;-).
More often than not it's a misconception stemming from exposure to
'professional' graphics applications' "web export"/splice tools.

Josh

On 1/13/06, Bruce <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I was pleased recently to get a rather large project. It was also nice that
> they were sending the graphics for the site design.
> Today I got them, in pdf format!
> Now, perhaps I live on another planet, or a rank amature, but in the last
> ten years online I have known no-one who uses pdf for graphics.
> I have no clue what to do with them, especially after client stating the
> time he put into making them.
> I wish all pdf files would get lost, feel they have no place on the web.
> I really hope that standards aren't moving in this direction!!!
>
> What do you do in a situation like this? I need them for the design, menu
> items and backgrounds...
>
> Bruce Prochnau
> BKDesign
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RE: [WSG] pdf graphics

[Nic]

If you don't have the full version of Acrobat, you're probably SOL...

In a case like this, you ought to ask the client again for a USABLE file.
If you didn't specify the file formats required in the contract, then you
may be in for trouble.

I've had a nightmare deal with someone on a project like that a few months
back.  

I wish you luck!

Nic

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[WSG] pdf graphics

[Bruce]

Hi all,

I was pleased recently to get a rather large project. It was also nice that
they were sending the graphics for the site design.
Today I got them, in pdf format!
Now, perhaps I live on another planet, or a rank amature, but in the last
ten years online I have known no-one who uses pdf for graphics.
I have no clue what to do with them, especially after client stating the
time he put into making them.
I wish all pdf files would get lost, feel they have no place on the web.
I really hope that standards aren't moving in this direction!!!

What do you do in a situation like this? I need them for the design, menu
items and backgrounds...

Bruce Prochnau
BKDesign

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Re: [WSG] Safari Lightening Entire Background Image

[Jan Brasna]

FYI - it's described here:





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Jan Brasna :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com | www.wdnews.net
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