Re: [WSG] multilingual website advice

[Olly Hodgson]

On 11/1/07, Andrew Harris <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I'm asking for any gems of wisdom - links or first hand advice, mostly
> technical, but anything that deals with the pitfalls in building
> arabic websites would be great.

I found Richard Ishida's @media07 presentation, "Designing for
International Users: Practical Tips" rather enlightening. The audio
and slides are available from


Cheers,


-- 
Olly Hodgson
http://thinkdrastic.net/


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Re: [WSG] POSH article question

[Christian Montoya]

On Nov 2, 2007 8:36 AM, Tom Livingston <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Case in point, Wordpress doesn't offer  or  in the post editor,
> > just  and , and yet the buttons for these say "i" and "b"!
> > Annoying!
> >
>
>
> Thanks Christian and others,
>
> Another question though... do you have an example of proper, semantic
> use of  vs ? Is it just just a tag to allow you to style
> your own visual emphasis? How about  vs.  - what's the
> semantic difference? Here's the shameful confession - I am guilty of
> blindly swapping these tags for  and . Now I have to back up my
> argument to go back! :-P

I recommend looking at the recommended tags for HTML 5 to see some
more attempts at creating semantic tags for uses of  and . 
and  have no semantic value, but there are lots of times when
 and  would be the wrong tag to use. Also, there's
microformats but I don't know if those cover all the bases.

-- 
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.net


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Re: [WSG] POSH article question

[Kenny Graham]

> Tom said:
> Lets make this word visually called out

But that would be a pain to maintain.  Consider this:
MyStyledCompanyName is a really good company...
...
We offer website optimization services...

You want the  in the company name to be red because that's how your
company's name is styled.  You also want the  in the second
paragraph styled red, but for a different reason.  A few months later,
you change your mind and want the company name to be styled with blue.
 If you had them both classed with the reason you wanted them red,
you'd only have to change the stylesheet.


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Re: [WSG] POSH article question

[Tim White]

>
>Well done! That was perfect. Thanks.

You're welcome.


>Although for me personally, I'd prolly use  and  for bold and
>italic text, vs. a span with a class and related style. I don't see
>how the later is more semantic. Even if the design called for red text
>as opposed to bold face, I could attack the  tag to achieve the
>color, etc. through the style. And when styles are off, the visual
>effect is intact.

 
If you just needed to style some text, and not add emphasis, then, yes, you 
could use  and  as you suggest. (And for the reason you suggest -- less 
mark up.) They haven't been deprecated so they are 'legal' to use. I will leave 
it at that. : )


~ Tim 
tjameswhite.com'>http://www.tjameswhite.com";>tjameswhite.com





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Re: [WSG] multilingual website advice

[Stuart Foulstone]

Certain Islamic cultures have restrictions on images of any living thing -
not just people.

There are also differences of opinion as to whether this applies to just
drawings or to photographs too.

See:

http://www.muhajabah.com/pictures-fiqh.htm

Whilst some things of these may be unoffensive when present on "Western"
Websites, for a Website aimed at that community it may be offensive (or at
least seem impolite or uncaring).

As others have said, you really need advice from those who know and
understand the sensibilities of your target audience.



On Fri, November 2, 2007 8:51 am, Michael MD wrote:
>> Another issue is graphics... if you've got any stock images of people
>> like some sites do, you have to think about what certain cultures
>> might think about how people dress.
>
> There are also sensitivities in some cultures about photos of people who
> have passed away.
>
>
>
>
>
>
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RE: [WSG] POSH article question

[Thierry Koblentz]

>> Of course, if there was a tag for 'foreign language word' then the best
>> choice (for the example above) would be to use that -- but there isn't.
>> Perhaps the most semantic solution in the above example would be to wrap
>> the word in a span with a class assigned, like so:

>> HTML:
>>  We say "yes", but the French say "Oui"> span>

>> CSS:
>>.foreignWord {font-style: italic;}

> Interesting, because I would have marked it up like this:

> We say "yes", but the French say "Oui"

Oops, I cut and pasted the ' "" ', but I wouldn't use them at all. Actually
I'd replace them with EM in both cases (for "yes" and "oui"):

We say yes, but the French say Oui

-- 
Regards,
Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com



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Re: [WSG] POSH article question

[Tom Livingston]

Well, maybe this is better:

Lets make this word visually called out

p b{color:#f00; font-weight:normal;}

-- 

Tom Livingston | Senior Interactive Developer | Media Logic |
ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com


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Re: [WSG] POSH article question

[Rick Lecoat]

On 2/11/07 (14:24) David said:

>We say "yes", but the French say "Oui"span>

Yes, David, I thought of the lang attribute about 3 seconds after I'd
posted my reply, and in that particular example it is of course the
perfect solution.

Tom, if you use a span with a class assigned then you are able to imply
semantic intention by the name that you give to the class. Hence
class="foreignWord" is better than class="italicised" because although a
machine will not pick up the meaning (since foreignWord is defined by
me, not an official spec), someone looking at the code will. Seeing
bonjour they would know it was italicised but not necessarily know why.

IMO that means that semantic class names are better than plain bold or
italic. But there may be times when there is no semantic meaning to
convey at all, in which case  and  are there to be used.

HTH
-- 
Rick Lecoat



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RE: [WSG] POSH article question

[Thierry Koblentz]

> We say "yes", but the French say "Oui" span>

>> CSS:
>> .foreignWord {font-style: italic;}

> [lang] { font-style: italic; }
> [lang=en] { font-style: normal; }

What about:
span[lang] { font-style: italic; }

As a side note, I believe the attribute value should be between quotes
[lang="en"]

-- 
Regards,
Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com






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Re: [WSG] POSH article question

[Tom Livingston]

> The word (probably) does not require any semantic emphasis per se -- ie.
> you are not giving it any enhanced meaning -- and so you would not use the
>  tag but you DO want to give it a visual-only 
> enhancement to make
> it render in italics.
> 
>
> Hope that helps.
>

Well done! That was perfect. Thanks.

Although for me personally, I'd prolly use  and  for bold and
italic text, vs. a span with a class and related style. I don't see
how the later is more semantic. Even if the design called for red text
as opposed to bold face, I could attack the  tag to achieve the
color, etc. through the style. And when styles are off, the visual
effect is intact.


Lets make this word red to visually call it out

p b{color:#f00; font-weight:normal;}


No? Am I STILL in need of more coffee for this???


-- 

Tom Livingston | Senior Interactive Developer | Media Logic |
ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com


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RE: [WSG] POSH article question

[Thierry Koblentz]

> Of course, if there was a tag for 'foreign language word' then the best
> choice (for the example above) would be to use that -- but there isn't.
> Perhaps the most semantic solution in the above example would be to wrap
> the word in a span with a class assigned, like so:

> HTML:
>  We say "yes", but the French say "Oui" span>

> CSS:
>.foreignWord {font-style: italic;}

Interesting, because I would have marked it up like this:

We say "yes", but the French say "Oui"

But I'm French, so I may be a bit biased :-)

-- 
Regards,
Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com








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Re: [WSG] POSH article question

[David Dorward]

On 2 Nov 2007, at 13:29, Rick Lecoat wrote:
Of course, if there was a tag for 'foreign language word' then the  
best
choice (for the example above) would be to use that -- but there  
isn't.


Not a tag, at least.

Perhaps the most semantic solution in the above example would be to  
wrap

the word in a span with a class assigned, like so:

HTML:
 We say "yes", but the French say "Oui"


We say "yes", but the French say "Oui"span>



CSS:
.foreignWord {font-style: italic;}


[lang] { font-style: italic; }
[lang=en] { font-style: normal; }

--
David Dorward
http://dorward.me.uk/
http://blog.dorward.me.uk/




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Re: [WSG] POSH article question

[Tom Livingston]

> Of course, if there was a tag for 'foreign language word' then the best
> choice (for the example above) would be to use that -- but there isn't.
> Perhaps the most semantic solution in the above example would be to wrap
> the word in a span with a class assigned, like so:
>
> HTML:
>  We say "yes", but the French say "Oui" span>
>
> CSS:
> .foreignWord {font-style: italic;}
>

Thanks Rick,

Not trying to beat a dead horse here, but two things.

I am not sure why the added code of a span with a class is MORE
semantic than  in your example, but I may still be thinking about
it from a visual standpoint...

Also, can you - or anyone else - give me an example of a semantic use
of ? Emphasized text as opposed to italicized? Around here, bold
text is emphasized text, if you know what I mean. :-P

Thanks for the discussion people!

-- 

Tom Livingston | Senior Interactive Developer | Media Logic |
ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com


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Re: [WSG] POSH article question

[Tim White]

>On 2/11/07 (12:36) Tom said:
>
>>Another question though... do you have an example of proper, semantic
>>use of  vs ? Is it just just a tag to allow you to style
>>your own visual emphasis? How about  vs.  - what's the
>>semantic difference?

Rick actually provides a great example in his response. I've marked up his 
sentence below:

The word (probably) does not require any semantic emphasis per se -- ie.
you are not giving it any enhanced meaning -- and so you would not use the
 tag but you DO want to give it a visual-only enhancement 
to make
it render in italics.


I've added   around DO. You can see that he is emphasizing a 
point there, so the markup should reflect that. [Even more emphasis 
for you.]

In other words, listen to the way you speak. You can hear when you add 
emphasis, or really strong emphasis, to what you are saying. In HTML, those 
word(s) would get wrapped in  or 

As for  and , well, I don't use them. They have no semantics per se, just 
visual effect. If I need something bolded or italicized I 
1) see what element it is already in
2) look to see if there is an appropriate HTML element I could add
3) If 1 and 2 fail, I'll use a  with a semantically rich class 
name. (Or at least I try to make it semantically meaningful : )

Hope that helps.

 
~ Tim 
tjameswhite.com'>http://www.tjameswhite.com";>tjameswhite.com


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Re: [WSG] POSH article question

[Tim White]

>On 11/1/07, Tom Livingston <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 If you are writing a book title, the you shouldn't use
>either, but rather something like a  with your
>styling of choice.

And don't forget, for something like a book there is always  
(which italicizes by default). 

The overall idea is to add meaning to the text in the HTML and let CSS worry 
about presentation. If there is not an existing element to do what you need, 
that's when classes can come to the rescue. 

 
~ Tim 
tjameswhite.com'>http://www.tjameswhite.com";>tjameswhite.com





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Re: [WSG] POSH article question

[Rick Lecoat]

On 2/11/07 (12:36) Tom said:

>Another question though... do you have an example of proper, semantic
>use of  vs ? Is it just just a tag to allow you to style
>your own visual emphasis? How about  vs.  - what's the
>semantic difference?

Don't have any convenient links to send you, Tom, but let me see if I
can give a verbal example.

When you say "just a tag to allow you to style your own visual
emphasis", then THAT is when you should use a  or . An example
might be a foreign language word -- traditionally styled in italics. The
word (probably) does not require any semantic emphasis per se -- ie. you
are not giving it any enhanced meaning -- and so you would not use the
 tag but you DO want to give it a visual-only enhancement to make it
render in italics. 

The key here is that a device that reads your page by looking at the
code (eg a screen reader or a search engine) should *not* be led to
infer that the word has been emphasised -- because it hasn't, it's just
been italicised so that devices that read the page by looking at the
rendered version (eg. our eyes) can make assumptions based upon our
cultural context ("hmm... words in italics are often plucked from
another language").

And I'm starting to get overly-wordy here, sorry.

Of course, if there was a tag for 'foreign language word' then the best
choice (for the example above) would be to use that -- but there isn't.
Perhaps the most semantic solution in the above example would be to wrap
the word in a span with a class assigned, like so:

HTML:
 We say "yes", but the French say "Oui"

CSS:
.foreignWord {font-style: italic;}

Lastly:  is a more emphatic version of . As I understand it.
And the above guidelines would apply equally to the bold/strong debate.
Rule of thumb: think to yourself, regardless of how it *looks* on the
screen, what does the text I'm marking up *mean*?

If I'm off base here I'm sure others will correct me.
Best regards; 
-- 
Rick Lecoat



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Re: [WSG] POSH article question

[Tom Livingston]

> Case in point, Wordpress doesn't offer  or  in the post editor,
> just  and , and yet the buttons for these say "i" and "b"!
> Annoying!
>


Thanks Christian and others,

Another question though... do you have an example of proper, semantic
use of  vs ? Is it just just a tag to allow you to style
your own visual emphasis? How about  vs.  - what's the
semantic difference? Here's the shameful confession - I am guilty of
blindly swapping these tags for  and . Now I have to back up my
argument to go back! :-P

A reference link is fine here people, I don't expect anyone to sit and
write me a lesson! :-) W3C wasn't to clear to me (shocker, I know)...

Thanks!


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[WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG Digest [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

[Fernando Longo]

I will return on Monday 12th of November 2007.

Please contact Trevor Wakely <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > if you require assistance. 

All the best.


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Re: [WSG] multilingual website advice

[Michael MD]

Another issue is graphics... if you've got any stock images of people
like some sites do, you have to think about what certain cultures
might think about how people dress.


There are also sensitivities in some cultures about photos of people who 
have passed away.







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Re: [WSG] PHI and YUI Grids

[Maarten Stolte]

Hi Paul,

thanks for the links, it's nice that they are also a bit different in
design, so we have different examples.

regards,

Maarten

On Nov 2, 2007 1:07 AM, Paul Minty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Maarten,
>
> We've done a few, often with a couple of mods.
>
> www.vssmarthomes.com.au
> www.nyp.com.au (I think)
> www.wwwatertrucks.com
>
> The smaller the job, the more likely we are to use the YUI Grids as they
> are.
>
> Cheers
> Paul
>
>
> Paul Minty Director
>
> mintleaf studio
> We design & create stylish websites
>
> Post: Box 6 108 Flinders Street Melbourne VIC 3000
> Level 2 108 Flinders Street Melbourne
> T. 03 9662 9344
> F. 03 9662 9255
> M. 0418 307 475
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> www.mintleafstudio.com.au
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Behalf Of Maarten Stolte
> Sent: Wednesday, 31 October 2007 7:00 PM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: Re: [WSG] PHI and YUI Grids
>
> Hi,
>
> > We've been using the YUI for a while. We wrote our own variant to
> > support the proportions that our Art Director likes to use, which
> > include the Golden Mean.
>
> Can you show any examples of sites using it? I'm wanting to show our
> front end designer some examples.
>
> thanks,
>
> Maarten
>
>
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