Re: [WSG] POSH article question

2007-11-02 Thread Tim White
On 11/1/07, Tom Livingston [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 If you are writing a book title, the you shouldn't use
either, but rather something like a span class=book with your
styling of choice.

And don't forget, for something like a book there is always cite/cite 
(which italicizes by default). 

The overall idea is to add meaning to the text in the HTML and let CSS worry 
about presentation. If there is not an existing element to do what you need, 
that's when classes can come to the rescue. 

 
~ Tim 
tjameswhite.com'http://www.tjameswhite.com;tjameswhite.com





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Re: [WSG] POSH article question

2007-11-02 Thread Tom Livingston
Well, maybe this is better:

pLets make this word bvisually/b called out/p

p b{color:#f00; font-weight:normal;}

-- 

Tom Livingston | Senior Interactive Developer | Media Logic |
ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com


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Re: [WSG] POSH article question

2007-11-02 Thread Rick Lecoat
On 2/11/07 (14:24) David said:

p lang=enWe say yes, but the French say span lang='fr'Oui/ 
span/p

Yes, David, I thought of the lang attribute about 3 seconds after I'd
posted my reply, and in that particular example it is of course the
perfect solution.

Tom, if you use a span with a class assigned then you are able to imply
semantic intention by the name that you give to the class. Hence
class=foreignWord is better than class=italicised because although a
machine will not pick up the meaning (since foreignWord is defined by
me, not an official spec), someone looking at the code will. Seeing
ibonjour/i they would know it was italicised but not necessarily know why.

IMO that means that semantic class names are better than plain bold or
italic. But there may be times when there is no semantic meaning to
convey at all, in which case b and i are there to be used.

HTH
-- 
Rick Lecoat



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Re: [WSG] multilingual website advice

2007-11-02 Thread Stuart Foulstone

Certain Islamic cultures have restrictions on images of any living thing -
not just people.

There are also differences of opinion as to whether this applies to just
drawings or to photographs too.

See:

http://www.muhajabah.com/pictures-fiqh.htm

Whilst some things of these may be unoffensive when present on Western
Websites, for a Website aimed at that community it may be offensive (or at
least seem impolite or uncaring).

As others have said, you really need advice from those who know and
understand the sensibilities of your target audience.



On Fri, November 2, 2007 8:51 am, Michael MD wrote:
 Another issue is graphics... if you've got any stock images of people
 like some sites do, you have to think about what certain cultures
 might think about how people dress.

 There are also sensitivities in some cultures about photos of people who
 have passed away.






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RE: [WSG] POSH article question

2007-11-02 Thread Thierry Koblentz
 Of course, if there was a tag for 'foreign language word' then the best
 choice (for the example above) would be to use that -- but there isn't.
 Perhaps the most semantic solution in the above example would be to wrap
 the word in a span with a class assigned, like so:

 HTML:
 p We say yes, but the French say span class=foreignWordOui/
 span/p

 CSS:
.foreignWord {font-style: italic;}

 Interesting, because I would have marked it up like this:

 pWe say yes, but the French say em lang=frOui/em/p

Oops, I cut and pasted the '  ', but I wouldn't use them at all. Actually
I'd replace them with EM in both cases (for yes and oui):

pWe say emyes/em, but the French say em lang=frOui/em/p

-- 
Regards,
Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com



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RE: [WSG] POSH article question

2007-11-02 Thread Thierry Koblentz
 p lang=enWe say yes, but the French say span lang='fr'Oui/ 
 span/p

 CSS:
 .foreignWord {font-style: italic;}

 [lang] { font-style: italic; }
 [lang=en] { font-style: normal; }

What about:
span[lang] { font-style: italic; }

As a side note, I believe the attribute value should be between quotes
[lang=en]

-- 
Regards,
Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com






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Re: [WSG] POSH article question

2007-11-02 Thread Tom Livingston
q
 The word (probably) does not require any semantic emphasis per se -- ie.
 you are not giving it any enhanced meaning -- and so you would not use the
 em tag but you strongDO/strong want to give it a visual-only 
 enhancement to make
 it render in italics.
 /q

 Hope that helps.


Well done! That was perfect. Thanks.

Although for me personally, I'd prolly use b and i for bold and
italic text, vs. a span with a class and related style. I don't see
how the later is more semantic. Even if the design called for red text
as opposed to bold face, I could attack the b tag to achieve the
color, etc. through the style. And when styles are off, the visual
effect is intact.


pLets make this word bred/b to visually call it out/p

p b{color:#f00; font-weight:normal;}


No? Am I STILL in need of more coffee for this???


-- 

Tom Livingston | Senior Interactive Developer | Media Logic |
ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com


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RE: [WSG] POSH article question

2007-11-02 Thread Thierry Koblentz
 Of course, if there was a tag for 'foreign language word' then the best
 choice (for the example above) would be to use that -- but there isn't.
 Perhaps the most semantic solution in the above example would be to wrap
 the word in a span with a class assigned, like so:

 HTML:
 p We say yes, but the French say span class=foreignWordOui/
 span/p

 CSS:
.foreignWord {font-style: italic;}

Interesting, because I would have marked it up like this:

pWe say yes, but the French say em lang=frOui/em/p

But I'm French, so I may be a bit biased :-)

-- 
Regards,
Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com








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Re: [WSG] POSH article question

2007-11-02 Thread Tim White
On 2/11/07 (12:36) Tom said:

Another question though... do you have an example of proper, semantic
use of strong vs b? Is it just just a tag to allow you to style
your own visual emphasis? How about strong vs. em - what's the
semantic difference?

Rick actually provides a great example in his response. I've marked up his 
sentence below:
q
The word (probably) does not require any semantic emphasis per se -- ie.
you are not giving it any enhanced meaning -- and so you would not use the
em tag but you strongDO/strong want to give it a visual-only enhancement 
to make
it render in italics.
/q

I've added strong /strong around DO. You can see that he is emphasizing a 
point there, so the markup emshould/em reflect that. [Even more emphasis 
for you.]

In other words, listen to the way you speak. You can hear when you add 
emphasis, or really strong emphasis, to what you are saying. In HTML, those 
word(s) would get wrapped in em or strong

As for b and i, well, I don't use them. They have no semantics per se, just 
visual effect. If I need something bolded or italicized I 
1) see what element it is already in
2) look to see if there is an appropriate HTML element I could add
3) If 1 and 2 fail, I'll use a span class= with a semantically rich class 
name. (Or at least I try to make it semantically meaningful : )

Hope that helps.

 
~ Tim 
tjameswhite.com'http://www.tjameswhite.com;tjameswhite.com


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Re: [WSG] POSH article question

2007-11-02 Thread Rick Lecoat
On 2/11/07 (12:36) Tom said:

Another question though... do you have an example of proper, semantic
use of strong vs b? Is it just just a tag to allow you to style
your own visual emphasis? How about strong vs. em - what's the
semantic difference?

Don't have any convenient links to send you, Tom, but let me see if I
can give a verbal example.

When you say just a tag to allow you to style your own visual
emphasis, then THAT is when you should use a b or i. An example
might be a foreign language word -- traditionally styled in italics. The
word (probably) does not require any semantic emphasis per se -- ie. you
are not giving it any enhanced meaning -- and so you would not use the
em tag but you DO want to give it a visual-only enhancement to make it
render in italics. 

The key here is that a device that reads your page by looking at the
code (eg a screen reader or a search engine) should *not* be led to
infer that the word has been emphasised -- because it hasn't, it's just
been italicised so that devices that read the page by looking at the
rendered version (eg. our eyes) can make assumptions based upon our
cultural context (hmm... words in italics are often plucked from
another language).

And I'm starting to get overly-wordy here, sorry.

Of course, if there was a tag for 'foreign language word' then the best
choice (for the example above) would be to use that -- but there isn't.
Perhaps the most semantic solution in the above example would be to wrap
the word in a span with a class assigned, like so:

HTML:
p We say yes, but the French say span class=foreignWordOui/
span/p

CSS:
.foreignWord {font-style: italic;}

Lastly: strong is a more emphatic version of em. As I understand it.
And the above guidelines would apply equally to the bold/strong debate.
Rule of thumb: think to yourself, regardless of how it *looks* on the
screen, what does the text I'm marking up *mean*?

If I'm off base here I'm sure others will correct me.
Best regards; 
-- 
Rick Lecoat



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Re: [WSG] POSH article question

2007-11-02 Thread Tom Livingston
 Case in point, Wordpress doesn't offer i or b in the post editor,
 just em and strong, and yet the buttons for these say i and b!
 Annoying!



Thanks Christian and others,

Another question though... do you have an example of proper, semantic
use of strong vs b? Is it just just a tag to allow you to style
your own visual emphasis? How about strong vs. em - what's the
semantic difference? Here's the shameful confession - I am guilty of
blindly swapping these tags for b and i. Now I have to back up my
argument to go back! :-P

A reference link is fine here people, I don't expect anyone to sit and
write me a lesson! :-) W3C wasn't to clear to me (shocker, I know)...

Thanks!


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Re: [WSG] POSH article question

2007-11-02 Thread Tom Livingston
 Of course, if there was a tag for 'foreign language word' then the best
 choice (for the example above) would be to use that -- but there isn't.
 Perhaps the most semantic solution in the above example would be to wrap
 the word in a span with a class assigned, like so:

 HTML:
 p We say yes, but the French say span class=foreignWordOui/
 span/p

 CSS:
 .foreignWord {font-style: italic;}


Thanks Rick,

Not trying to beat a dead horse here, but two things.

I am not sure why the added code of a span with a class is MORE
semantic than i in your example, but I may still be thinking about
it from a visual standpoint...

Also, can you - or anyone else - give me an example of a semantic use
of em? Emphasized text as opposed to italicized? Around here, bold
text is emphasized text, if you know what I mean. :-P

Thanks for the discussion people!

-- 

Tom Livingston | Senior Interactive Developer | Media Logic |
ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com


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[WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG Digest [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

2007-11-02 Thread Fernando Longo
I will return on Monday 12th of November 2007.

Please contact Trevor Wakely [EMAIL PROTECTED]  if you require assistance. 

All the best.


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Re: [WSG] POSH article question

2007-11-02 Thread Tim White

Well done! That was perfect. Thanks.

You're welcome.


Although for me personally, I'd prolly use b and i for bold and
italic text, vs. a span with a class and related style. I don't see
how the later is more semantic. Even if the design called for red text
as opposed to bold face, I could attack the b tag to achieve the
color, etc. through the style. And when styles are off, the visual
effect is intact.

 
If you just needed to style some text, and not add emphasis, then, yes, you 
could use b and i as you suggest. (And for the reason you suggest -- less 
mark up.) They haven't been deprecated so they are 'legal' to use. I will leave 
it at that. : )


~ Tim 
tjameswhite.com'http://www.tjameswhite.com;tjameswhite.com





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Re: [WSG] multilingual website advice

2007-11-02 Thread Michael MD

Another issue is graphics... if you've got any stock images of people
like some sites do, you have to think about what certain cultures
might think about how people dress.


There are also sensitivities in some cultures about photos of people who 
have passed away.







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Re: [WSG] PHI and YUI Grids

2007-11-02 Thread Maarten Stolte
Hi Paul,

thanks for the links, it's nice that they are also a bit different in
design, so we have different examples.

regards,

Maarten

On Nov 2, 2007 1:07 AM, Paul Minty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Maarten,

 We've done a few, often with a couple of mods.

 www.vssmarthomes.com.au
 www.nyp.com.au (I think)
 www.wwwatertrucks.com

 The smaller the job, the more likely we are to use the YUI Grids as they
 are.

 Cheers
 Paul


 Paul Minty Director

 mintleaf studio
 We design  create stylish websites

 Post: Box 6 108 Flinders Street Melbourne VIC 3000
 Level 2 108 Flinders Street Melbourne
 T. 03 9662 9344
 F. 03 9662 9255
 M. 0418 307 475
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 www.mintleafstudio.com.au


 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 On Behalf Of Maarten Stolte
 Sent: Wednesday, 31 October 2007 7:00 PM
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: Re: [WSG] PHI and YUI Grids

 Hi,

  We've been using the YUI for a while. We wrote our own variant to
  support the proportions that our Art Director likes to use, which
  include the Golden Mean.

 Can you show any examples of sites using it? I'm wanting to show our
 front end designer some examples.

 thanks,

 Maarten


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Re: [WSG] POSH article question

2007-11-02 Thread Kenny Graham
 Tom said:
 pLets make this word bvisually/b called out/p

But that would be a pain to maintain.  Consider this:
pMybStyled/bCompanyName is a really good company.../p
...
pWe offer bwebsite optimization/b services.../p

You want the b in the company name to be red because that's how your
company's name is styled.  You also want the b in the second
paragraph styled red, but for a different reason.  A few months later,
you change your mind and want the company name to be styled with blue.
 If you had them both classed with the reason you wanted them red,
you'd only have to change the stylesheet.


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Re: [WSG] POSH article question

2007-11-02 Thread Christian Montoya
On Nov 2, 2007 8:36 AM, Tom Livingston [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Case in point, Wordpress doesn't offer i or b in the post editor,
  just em and strong, and yet the buttons for these say i and b!
  Annoying!
 


 Thanks Christian and others,

 Another question though... do you have an example of proper, semantic
 use of strong vs b? Is it just just a tag to allow you to style
 your own visual emphasis? How about strong vs. em - what's the
 semantic difference? Here's the shameful confession - I am guilty of
 blindly swapping these tags for b and i. Now I have to back up my
 argument to go back! :-P

I recommend looking at the recommended tags for HTML 5 to see some
more attempts at creating semantic tags for uses of b and i. b
and i have no semantic value, but there are lots of times when
strong and em would be the wrong tag to use. Also, there's
microformats but I don't know if those cover all the bases.

-- 
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.net


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Re: [WSG] multilingual website advice

2007-11-02 Thread Olly Hodgson
On 11/1/07, Andrew Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I'm asking for any gems of wisdom - links or first hand advice, mostly
 technical, but anything that deals with the pitfalls in building
 arabic websites would be great.

I found Richard Ishida's @media07 presentation, Designing for
International Users: Practical Tips rather enlightening. The audio
and slides are available from
http://www.vivabit.com/atmedia2007/europe/schedule/

Cheers,


-- 
Olly Hodgson
http://thinkdrastic.net/


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