Re: SPAM-LOW: Re: [WSG] semantics of a simple "form"
> The aspx programmer is open to standards and may be receptive to my advice. > > > how about this: > > > > Room Search > > Check-in Date: > > 01 > .. > > > Check-out Date: > > . > > > > > > > ...allthough when i look at it this nearly feels like a list to me... > -best > kevin > Reading slow these days. An explicit label has two parts: the label with its "for" attribute and the "id" attribute in the control. Your example need to have the id attribut equal to the "for" attribute of the label added to the select: Or use the implicit form which includes the select in the label and therefore doesn't need the "for" or id attributes: Check-in Date: 01 Most form look like lists, don't they? What makes them different is you are collecting data with which something is done. drew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] semantics of a simple "form"
On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 4:28 PM, kevin mcmonagle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > im not an expert on this but should there be a fieldset or legend around > this? > not even sure if it qualifies as a form, although it has a submit button. > > The reference about forms is: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/interact/forms.html If you are going to see this as a form you are goping to have to rewrite it to include labels and other requirements. All in the specs. The basic purpose of the form element, as found in the above cited Chapt 17 "Form", is "The FORM element acts as a container for controls. It specifies: * The layout of the form (given by the contents of the element). * The program that will handle the completed and submitted form (the action attribute). The receiving program must be able to parse name/value pairs in order to make use of them. * The method by which user data will be sent to the server (the method attribute). * A character encoding that must be accepted by the server in order to handle this form (the accept-charset attribute). User agents may advise the user of the value of the accept-charset attribute and/or restrict the user's ability to enter unrecognized characters. A form can contain text and markup (paragraphs, lists, etc.) in addition to form controls." While it is possible that the check-in-check-out is truly a header, it seems unlikely. It feels like a text sizing issue and that should be done through css not mangled headers. I realize you may have no control over that but it seems worth mentioning. drew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] ibm's adesigner says....
On 8/28/08, dwain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > i've been working on the accessibility of a page. i have added > longdesc inside the tag with the page where the information is > found. according to what i've read the "d" link is deprecated. > > adesigner says that i need the "d" link in addition to the longdesc. > i feel that i can safely ignore the errors since the "d" link is > deprecated. > > any thoughts on the matter? > In a sense the longdesc is functionally the equivalent of the old "d" link. The specs define a longdesc as: This attribute specifies a link to a long description of the image. This description should supplement the short description provided using the alt attribute. When the image has an associated image map, this attribute should provide information about the image map's contents. This is particularly important for server-side image maps. Since an IMG element may be within the content of an A element, the user agent's mechanism in the user interface for accessing the "longdesc" resource of the former must be different than the mechanism for accessing the href resource of the latter. http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/objects.html#adef-longdesc-IMG Hence it appears not as text but as a link in the example found in the specs: I suppose you could be very careful about the length of an alt description and try to fit the material in that. drew. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Removing space from division between header and content wasWhy css settings a background image in the body tag wouldn't work
> Now here is my question someone mentioned starting to use em instead of > pixels for all of this. How does this work? > > Michael Horowitz em's are somewhat like cubits and leagues. The typographers will give you a full discourse, or six, about them. (A lot of the discourse will even be interesting. )Consider an em to be 15px or 16px if you think size matters. And actually size does matter since an em will scale. As font settings are changed, em sizes with the changes. So 16 at 100% (unless you, the end user, redefine 100%) and 32ish at 200%. Being somewhat mystical is an advantage. And is furthermore part and parcel of the advantages of fluid designs implicit in separating presentation and content. Amazingly it all does fit together. andy *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Re: Form (layout/accessibiity)
On 7/9/08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Is it appropriate that I have one label for two inputs or does anyone > know of a surefire way to hide second label I have tried this but it does not > seem cross browser > Only one input per label according to the fine manual "The LABEL element may be used to attach information to controls. Each LABEL element is associated with exactly one form control." http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/interact/forms.html#edef-LABEL One alternative is to use the implicit association format which would allow you to have the two necessary labels and use an expected separator between them. A dash? A blank space? In the States it would be Zip 5+4 with two input boxes and a space between them. Something like this: Postcode - drew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo
On Sat, May 31, 2008 at 9:06 AM, Jens Brueckmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> I said it may explain ALA's approach, but that doesn't mean I like the idea >> ;) >> fwiw, I never use more than one H1 per document since I'm using it for site >> title. imho, if H1 is used for site title it can't be used again in the >> page. > > I agree. Two level-1 headings seem somewhat confusing to me. > Why is it confusing? Unusual perhaps. What's the basis in the specs for this kind of argument? The specs discuss sections not pages or documents -- just sections. If an author is comfortable defining a section as a page or a document, that's fine. But saying that once an h1 is used as a page title it can't be used again on the page, or that ALA has "the" right way simply can't be supported. These are simply alternate interpretations of the term section. Indeed again it is worth pointing out that in the specs h1 is wrapped in a div to help define the section not the other way around. Even the discussion of skipping numbered headers isn't definitive. The note says "some people" not "you must not". Granted that the some people is as I recall having this discussion a few years back, IEEE, it is still not normative.. Again, if you want to read the tea leaves, look at the html5 specs. There h1-h6 are clearly subordinate to sections and site headers. So within rather broad guidelines it is a matter of choice. When and if 5 is implemented the choices are more confined and proper semantic use of elements will go much further towards making it possible for UA's to more fruitfully interpret author intent which is the point of css and xhtml in enhancing usability and accessibility. drew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo
> > I'd say when it comes to "news" the source is very important, so imho the > publisher is key. > > Imaging this: > > The Times > There is water on Mars > > or this: > > The Sun > There is water on Mars > > versus: > > There is water on Mars > > -- So following the specs that a " heading element briefly describes the topic of the section it introduces. Heading information may be used by user agents, for example, to construct a table of contents for a document automatically" you now have: I. The Times A. There is water on Mars Or I. The Sun A. There is water on Mars Or 1. There is water on Mars Perhaps this might work: 1. The Sun II. There is water on mars. drew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo
On 5/28/08, Chris Pearce <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > For a few years now I've been marking up a clients company logo as a . I > just wanted to get an idea of how many people actually do this compared to > using a html image tag? I believe a is more semantically correct > however I'd be interested in seeing what other people on this list think. > Headers and particularly h1 headers are not "the" most important item on a page. Headers introduce sections of which there can be more than one on a page and which can run more than one page. This is what the html 4.01 specs say about headers: "A heading element briefly describes the topic of the section it introduces. Heading information may be used by user agents, for example, to construct a table of contents for a document automatically. There are six levels of headings in HTML with H1 as the most important and H6 as the least. Visual browsers usually render more important headings in larger fonts than less important ones. The following example shows how to use the DIV element to associate a heading with the document section that follows it. Doing so allows you to define a style for the section (color the background, set the font, etc.) with style sheets. Forest elephants In this section, we discuss the lesser known forest elephants. ...this section continues... Habitat Forest elephants do not live in trees but among them. ...this subsection continues... " http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#edef-H1 HTML5 is perhaps even clearer on the sectioning nature of headings since it also calls for the specific use of section tags to work with headers: "The h1–h6 elements and the header element are headings. The first element of heading content in an element of sectioning content gives the header for that section. Subsequent headers of equal or higher rank start new (implied) sections, headers of lower rank start subsections that are part of the previous one. Sectioning content elements are always considered subsections of their nearest ancestor element of sectioning content, regardless of what implied sections other headings may have created. Certain elements are said to be sectioning roots, including blockquote and td elements. These elements can have their own outlines, but the sections and headers inside these elements do not contribute to the outlines of their ancestors. " http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#headings0 Discussions of sections and articles and outlines seem to further confirm that headers are for sections not sites. Site headers are discussed under articles and outlines which include and seem to superceed headers in 5. In other words, it seems completely plausible to have an h1 for the logo and an h1 for the page topic if both of those seem to the author to constitute separate sections in 4.01 and obligatory in 5. drew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Making Video Accessible
On 4/3/08, Viable Design <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hello. I recently found a video embedder plugin that works well with > WordPress and validates perfectly with a strict doctype. But I realize > validation does not equal accessibility, so what exactly needs to be done to > make video accessible? Is it a matter of adding a subtitle track? > Captions synchronized to the actions and dialogue. That is, tell the story in words as it happens including the dialogue, if any. drew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Site Check/Launch: Edentiti.com
On 3/2/06, Lachlan Hunt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi Everyone, >A new site I recently developed the front-end for over the past few > months, called Edentiti [1], has just officially launched and I wanted > to get some feedback about the usability, accessibility and over > functionality in whatever browsers you can get your hands on. I've > tested in various Windows and Mac browsers during development, but as is > always the case, bugs tend to sneak in wherever they can and something > may have been missed. > Leaving aside all of the technical issues, the site is innocuous without being understated. But since that is what they want -- good job. drew ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Overflow and inheritance problems with a 2-column layout
On 2/16/06, John Latter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> http://evomech2.blogspot.com/2006/02/re-evomech-re-peer-review-and-genetic.html
>
> Its a 2 column layout and I think the relevant css code is:
>
> div#mainClm{float:right;width:66%;padding:30px 7% 10px
> 3%;border-left:dotted 1px #E0AD12;}
> div#sideBar{margin:20px 0px 0px 1em;padding:0px;text-align:left;width:100%;}
>
> The first problem (which occurs on Firefox but not IE6) can be seen at
> the bottom of the above page where the sidebar text overflows into main
> content area. I have tried to fix it myself but with many other things
> to do I'm really stumbling about in the dark.
>
> The second problem isn't readily apparent because I've tidied the main
> column content up:
>
> Entries in the main column are auto-added from a yahoo group and contain
> "tt" tags which are then carried over into the sidebar and change the
> text font. A similar effect is caused by posters using a variety of
> composing programs. Is there any code I can add to the end of the main
> div to stop _anything_ being inherited by the sidebar div?
>
It isn't an overflow problem. The right element floats, the left
element flows around the float. That's what the rules provide for. IE
is wrong; making erroneous columns where none exist. Have a look at
http://www.positioniseverything.net for examples and discussions of
floats and IE's excentricities.
Second problem -- haven't looked closely. It sounds like you need to
reexamine the function that converts the "tt" tags and be sure it only
is applied to the division you want it applied to.
drew
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**
Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site
> Legally courts can and will regulate companies. It's been happening > for years! We tell them the required minimum wage, the maximum working > hours, we regulate overtime, we tell them to put wheelchair ramps in > front of their doors, we zone their buildings, we make them get > permits, we do health inspections, etc. etc. etc. We have all these > laws in place to protect people. People are guaranteed freedom, not > companies. > > No, the courts cannot force me to make my website accessible, but they > can force Target Inc. Co. TM (R) to make their website accessible, > just like they can force Target to do a lot of other things, because > Target is not a person. It is a seperate entity. It is subject to the > rule of the courts. And hopefully the courts are interpreting the laws > correctly and deciding what the people want, in applying it to their > decisions. I know it gets sketchy after that, but that is how things > are supposed to work. > > We need to stop arguing with each other about the legal basis of this > case and just wait and see whether or not the courts will apply the > ADA to this website. It's that simple, and hopefully we can now get to > what we should be discussing here, that is, the technical reasons why > Target.com is not accessible and identifying other company websites > that are also making the same mistakes. That's all. > Courts adjudicate, not regulate. Regulation is a legislative function in the United State. Courts can and do discerne previously unkown rights. But it is the legislative branch which sets limits on the exercise of those rights with the court's subsequent agreement. And since Santa Clara County vs Southern Pacific in 1886, corporations have been granted personhood in the United States. In some senses then, this is a question of balancing competing personal rights. Drew ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Fieldset/legend semantics
On 12/28/05, Jonathan Carter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I have recently been re-evaluating my thinking on the subject of > designing semantic forms and the use of fieldsets has raised a few > questions for me. What I'd like to know is: at what point does it become > semantically correct to include a fieldset? (Presentational effects > aside) My first thought is that any time you have two or more related > fields, a fieldset could be effectively used to group them together so > that the browser knows what goes with what, therefore making it more > accessible for future cases. If this assumption is true, does that mean > a fieldset element should ALWAYS be used anytime two or more form fields > exist in association? That seems slightly overkill, but if it's semantic > benefits are as aforementioned, then the extra work would be merited and > certainly not in vain. > > This leads into my next question: should a legend always be included > inside a fieldset, even if it's not going to be displayed While reading the specs is often problematic for answering questions, in this case it seems fairly straightforward: "The FIELDSET element allows authors to group thematically related controls and labels. Grouping controls makes it easier for users to understand their purpose while simultaneously facilitating tabbing navigation for visual user agents and speech navigation for speech-oriented user agents. The proper use of this element makes documents more accessible."[1] As for legend: "The LEGEND element allows authors to assign a caption to a FIELDSET. The legend improves accessibility when the FIELDSET is rendered non-visually."[1] The example shows legend within the appropriate fieldset (which makes intuitive sense). So put it inside the fieldset it describes. The language used in this section describes fieldset and legend as options which improve usability and accessibility. Along with label; fieldset and legend help to make the overall purpose of the form and the themes of its sections clear(er). That is to say, if you think it will help make the form clear, do it; otherwise you can skip it. All leading me to the conclusion that it is probably better to do it than not; while also avoiding making it into a fetish. [1]http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/interact/forms.html#edef-FIELDSET drew ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Yet Another Float Problem
On 12/26/05, Paula Petrik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Well, the problem is solved--for the time being. It still does not work on Win98 with IE4, but I think that I have to draw the line. As Drew suggested, it was a rounding problem, but I did get a lot of practice writing if statement for the IE family. I do have question. Drew, when you say "you will clear to get height," what will I be clearing? I have a 3-column page coming up and want to forestall any further angst. Paula PetrikPaula PetrikProfessorDepartment of History & Art HistoryAssociate DirectorCenter for History & New Media George Mason Universityhttp://www.archiva.net What to clear. That's always the question with IE. If you are using a multiple float, the clear usually works best after the last float. If the floats are in a container that would be after the last float and before the container is closed. Sometimes an additional clear is necessary within the last float. And additional clears as always necessary in nested floats. Looking at a copy of a 3 column template I did when learning css, there is a header, container with 3 columns, footer structure. The clear is between the container and footer. Be glad to send it to you off list if you like. In diagnosing these kinds of problems, it works best for me to give the main elements a visible border. It shows me where in fact things don't fit right, which if often different than where I think they shouldn't fit when it doesn't work right the first time. If you use a fair number of clears you may well get accused of divitis. Just weigh having to change nothing against having to rework all of the clever hacks for IE should IE7 contain even a small portion of the rumored changes in support for css and xhtml. drew
Re: [WSG] Yet Another Float Problem
On 12/26/05, Paula Petrik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I'm being driven nuts. Pulling out my hair. I cannot get this to workin IE and can't figure out where I'm going wrong. If I float:leftthe #maincontent, I lose my background image because #wrapper has noheight. IE does not want to honor something. The #mainecontent should move up around the floated #nav. Do I need a :clear? Hoping someoneis working away somewhere.XHTML and CSS validates and have browsercammed.http://www.archiva.net/hist697ay06/ http://www.archiva.net/hist697ay06/hist697ay06_screen.css Forgot to add that if you do want to float both you will need the clear to get height. drew
Re: [WSG] Yet Another Float Problem
On 12/26/05, Paula Petrik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I'm being driven nuts. Pulling out my hair. I cannot get this to workin IE and can't figure out where I'm going wrong. If I float:leftthe #maincontent, I lose my background image because #wrapper has noheight. IE does not want to honor something. The #mainecontent should move up around the floated #nav. Do I need a :clear? Hoping someoneis working away somewhere.XHTML and CSS validates and have browsercammed.http://www.archiva.net/hist697ay06/ http://www.archiva.net/hist697ay06/hist697ay06_screen.css It seems to be a width problem. I reduced the #maincontent to 480px and it fits on IE. You might be able to increase the size some, the 480 was a first attempt. Given the mix of px and em for various margins, paddings, etc there is likely a rounding difference which makes one fit and the other not. This is done without the man in the suite. image. I'm curious as to why if you want 2 columns you just don't make 2 columns and float both nav and maincontent. The layout doesn't seem to call for the margin-left approach but the margin vs float choice is often personal. drew
Re: [WSG] Float Left Problem
On 12/25/05, Jeff D. Reid <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Thanks for the reply Jorge. I have posted a jpg of the eps file I have to work with from the designer. In Firefox the text column sits closer to the left margin of the page than in IE. IE renders the page as close to the jpg file as I can get. I am trying to understand why Firefox does not push the text column to the right as it should. I am also trying to understand how to add the bottom graphic to the text column as well. Here is the url to the jpg of the eps file: http://www.romdev.com/olp/olp_home_01.jpg On my system FF shows no difference in the right margin for sidebar compared to IE. There are still problems with the header and now with the left margin of sidebar. To late for me to deal with this tonite.
Re: [WSG] Float Left Problem
On 12/25/05, Jeff D. Reid <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Thanks for the reply Drew. The html and css both now validate. Changing the clear to clear:both did not help though. Jeff On my FF the sidebar footer is now in the right place. The header image still has problems. drew
Re: [WSG] Float Left Problem
On 12/25/05, Jeff D. Reid <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: In IE 6, I have managed to get this page to lineup somewhat "right" in visual appearance from the graphic designers overall printout. But in Firefox, the left text column is not aligning in the same visual placement as in IE. Also second issue...how to I add the end of column graphic that can be seen in IE at the bottom of the text column but appears under the main graphics in Firefox. Also in IE, the final position of this graphic is not correct, as it should but up against the bottom of the text column. Here is the url to a temp page: http://www.romdev.com/olp/index2.htm CSS is here: http://www.romdev.com/olp/css/main.css Run the css through the validator. There are a lot of minor points but the main one is that your value fro clear is incorrect. The values are none, left, right, both. There is no all. Also the script tag needs to be fixed up. use type not language. Haven't run the page with the corrections. But visually it makes sense as the cause of the error. Try it and see drew
Re: [WSG] Re: digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
On 12/21/05, Barrie North <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hey Drew, Well, I tried min-width 300px and then removed the min-width completely and it still didn't work :/ Barrie Only way I was able to eliminate the scroll is to make the headerimg a background image (as someone previously suggested). The image has a width so when it is used in the foreground that width becomes the minimum width the page can be reduced to. A page will only shrink to the size of the smallest irreducible element -- the headerimg in this case. You can see how this works by taking out the wrapper width and then seeing where the scroll starts. If your eyes and sense of proportion are better than mine, you can see this even with the wrapper width left in place.
Re: [WSG] Re: digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
On 12/21/05, Barrie North <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hey Drew, Well, I tried min-width 300px and then removed the min-width completely and it still didn't work :/ Barrie That's what I get for not trying the solution before profoundly pronouncing it. This one is better. If I remove the absolute positioning of the #headerbanner the headerimg clips. I didn't take all the images just the headerimg. There is still a scroll bar but the img clips. Haven't played with min-max or other absolutes to see if that affects the scroll. drew
[WSG] re: overflow
Barrie North wrote: Hi all, I have a fluid layout and for the life of me can't get the image to be "cropped" as the screen adjusts. Here is the link: http://www.compassdesigns.net/joomlashack/ If you resize the window the image will stay on top. I have played with z-index, overflow:hidden. I can't for the life of me get this to work. Anyone fancy jumping in and pointing out the obvious thing I am missing J ? You have a wrapper with a min-width of 760px so the container is never in an overflow situation. drew
[WSG] Re: digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Barrie North wrote: Hi all, I have a fluid layout and for the life of me can't get the image to be "cropped" as the screen adjusts. Here is the link: http://www.compassdesigns.net/joomlashack/ If you resize the window the image will stay on top. I have played with z-index, overflow:hidden. I can't for the life of me get this to work. Anyone fancy jumping in and pointing out the obvious thing I am missing J ? Barrie North You've set the wrapper at min-width of 760px. The containing box for the image won't be in overflow condition at lesser widths. drew
[WSG] re:talking points for standards
Bert wrote:When it comes to search engines, can anyone prove that lean codeis better? Has anyone done research on this claim? Google is fullof tagsoup sites that are highly ranked.I searched for "web design" in Google (pages from Australia only). The top 3 (non sponsored) sites used tables for layout,none of them validated and only one had a doctype. They all usedsome CSS but only in addition to the tagsoup.So where are the benefits? =As a digest reader I don't respond much since most things are settled or overworked by the time I read them. This may fit the later category but even so every now and then it's good to ask "why bother?". Bert's been at it long enough to know the answer but sometime it's good to hear it. For standards the answer to why bother isn't really found in page size, bandwidth savings or even ease of reconfiguration. The answer is in the purpose of the semantic web. Berners-Lee, Hendler and Lassila were clear about their goal in their seminal The Semantic Web. The target is a decentralized, data driven web. That's the goal of the w3c: "a common framework that allows data to be shared and reused across application, enterprise, and community boundaries."[1] To make that vision work, data has to be accessible and understandable. Web standards are focused on making that possible. Page design is a part of those standards but is not the extent of those standards. The reason we follow standards should be to create pages which offer data that can be searched by User Agents in a reliable way. That is, the content is presented in accordance with a declared set of rules which clearly define what elements are and what their usage means. Furthermore, standards means presentation can be safely ignored since it in no way affects the content. With known elements and no concern about presentational inference, data becomes the focus. Some of the data can be even be extracted from the semantics of the page: proper use of headers, lists as dialogue, etc. A good start but only a start. What we need to remember is that standards go way beyond this. What we need to remember is that a fully semantic web revolves around the rdf framework;employing uri's, taking advantage of the sparql and owl for data manipulation, making use of daml+oil for establishing data equivalence.--- bringing the flexibility of the web to fruition: "RDF is a flexible and extensible way to represent information about World Wide Web resources. It is used to represent, among other things, personal information, social networks, metadata about digital artifacts, as well as provide a means of integration over disparate sources of information. A standardized query language for RDF data with multiple implementations offers developers and end users a way to write and to consume the results of queries across this wide range of information. Used with a common protocol, applications can access and combine information from across the Web." [2]This is a vision that moves well beyond the electronic. Uri's are conceived of as representing not just links but also places and people. The rdf framework of grahps provides a way to establish the links in a chain by which a person acquires and evaluates knowledge and resources in a,hopefully, evolving process. The problem is that the data upon which such a web depends is in incompatible and likely mutually incomprehensible formats. Making that data interchangeable is what standards do. Various forms of xml derived technologies as OWL[3] and daml+oil[4] help to establish an equivalence of data; making it possible for machines and people to trust that the data they are receiving is understood as it was meant to be. So that "zip" is understood as intended by the original author be that meaning as "zip code", "nothing", or "zipper type". The translation is accurate. In the end, a user, including all of us, will shape their own experience with the web. Trust, the feeling that the data is accurate, will come with a combination of electronic signature verification and the slower process of building a set of uri's individuals find reliable. It's not an absolute standard of trust, it's a personal and relative standard as varied as the web. Will this matter to large commercial sites? Probably not; nor necessarily should it. Their version of the web is proscribed by their concern with brand name recognition and frankly sales. People maintaining such sites won't worry about truples and how daml classes are written. A web authoring tool which is wysiwyg, with nested tables and tag soup, will work fine for them unless and until it becomes a compelling business reason to do pages in another form. You can bet that if standards compliant pages lead to new and different search methodologies, commercial sites will follow along. Business didn't invent the web, it just changed it. Other groups can do the same thing. Y
