A Complex Table Inspector
http://juicystudio.com/complextableinspector.asp
sIFR 2.0 release candidate 3
http://www.mikeindustries.com/blog/archive/2004/12/sifr-2.0-release-candidat
e-3
How and when to use sIFR
http://usabletype.com/articles/2004/how-and-when-to-use-sifr/
Text Decoration
Apologies for this unusual post.
There are times when discussions about web development seems totally
insignificant and irrelevant. Like now. In Sri Lanka, India, Thailand,
Indonesia and Malaysia, people are suffering.
Luckily, there is something we can all do - we can give assistance to an aid
WSG members,
It is completely unacceptable to swear/use profane language on the WSG list.
This has been mentioned many times on list including the last time we had
this sort of incident, when Peter Firminger (listdad) wrote:
I can be blue to people I know in person but profanity... is simply not
Now there were some people on-list who thought the last Zen Garden entry I
posted lacked a certain wow factor. Well, how about this entry which seems
to have it all... Style... Class... Wow... and lots of animation!
http://brucelawson.co.uk/zengarden.htm
:)
Russ
Apart from specific classes on alternate rows, it is possible to style
alternate rows without adding markup to the structure using adjacent sibling
selectors. Be aware of IE's lack of support. Here is a sample from older
post on similar question:
http://www.maxdesign.com.au/jobs/css/adjacent2.htm
If an enterprising WSG member had 20 minutes on their hands they could add
all of these tools under a newly formed resource category called Colour
tools.
Then, people would never forget any colour tool - and we would not have to
keep having off-topic posts about colour tools!
:)
Russ
Have a
Ok, enough.
The aim of this list is not to criticise other members but to help and
support them. If we start down this road it will only end in tears.
Russ
Your home page is very attractive.
A bit of humble pie - I validated your home page using your referral
button 'xhtml' and got 15
Web design world cool-down:
http://www.molly.com/2004/12/18/web-design-world-cool-down/
Don¹t Care About Market Share:
http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/20/market-share-dont-care/
HTML tags:
http://lachy.id.au/blogs/log/2004/12/html-tags
ALT attribute (ALT tag, ALT tooltip)
About a month ago, Lachlan Hardy produced a slide show template (based on
Eric Meyers S5) for the WSG.
It is now online for all WSG members to use as they wish:
http://webstandardsgroup.org/go/resource367.cfm
More on S5:
http://meyerweb.com/eric/tools/s5/
Rather than clog the list, if you have
Not quite true; that will only style anchors which have a href
attribute. If, for some reason you have one without a href (although I
can't think of a good reason to have an anchor without a href for which
there isn't a better, more semantic alternative), it *will not* be styled.
Yes,
http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=http://www.css-praxis.de/cssocean/zenoc
ean.css
Make sure you look in a good browser and scroll down!
Russ
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See
Start at the beginning. If you want to style every a element on the page,
you can do:
a:link { color: red;}
If you want to style a particular link, you can do it using a direct id or
class applied within a link like this:
HTML - a class=foo href=#text/a
CSS - a:link.foo { color: green;}
Or
Although the above CSS seems to work, I believe that the more correct
form for this selector is
a.foo:link
Quite correct! Written in a hurry.
My apologies
Russ
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See
Well, John and Maxine must have been busy...
Westciv's Complete CSS Guide is now available as a free CSS podGuide for
the iPod:
http://www.westciv.com/news/podguide.html
Interesting stuff
Russ
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The discussion list for
Clearing floated images in body text:
http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200412/clearing_floated_images_in_body
_text/
Float layouts:
http://www.autisticcuckoo.net/archive.php?id=2004/12/10/floating
Relatively Absolute:
Couldn't find reference to the 255 characters but did find this:
quote
Keep the alt text short. There is no set limit on the length of an alt text,
but as we shall see shortly, a very long alt may not be fully displayed when
image-loading is turned off or when the browser cannot locate the image
Well, last night's Sydney WSG end of year meeting was interesting.
We had 11 people turn up, but considering it was absolutely pouring rain,
the city was in total gridlock, we chose a venue that was absolutely packed
AND was largely an out-door space, we did quite well. We sat around under
I was going to write an explanation about trimming posts, but a quick Google
found exactly what I wanted to say - and probably much better than I could
say it:
Trim, trim, trim. When you are replying to a post, please quote only the
relevant parts of the message you are replying to. Be sure to
Because they are floated objects - their heights are not being recognised by
their parent container, so it does not extend below them. You need to clear
after them so that their container will wrap around them.
More here:
http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/floatsample.htm
Russ
Please
Today, Amit posted a piece of CSS code to the list. I remember when I first
started getting into CSS, code like this would make me freak out:
div.content a[href^=http:] {
background: transparent url('path/to/aoutside.gif') 100% 50% no-repeat;
padding-right: 10px;
}
So, for those that are
Ok, settle in for a lot of light reading. It's been a busy week!
Solving CSS problems for Mozilla Europe
http://www.1976design.com/blog/archive/2004/11/21/solving-css-problems-mozil
la-europe/
Turning the tables using CSS:
http://www.apple.com/pro/words/meyer/
Accessibility on a shoe-string:
Wednesday 08 December, 2004
Brisbane, Australia December Meeting
Now and Zen - CSS, the reality and the fantasy.
http://webstandardsgroup.org/go/event20.cfm
Thursday 09 December, 2004
Wellington New Zealand WSG meeting
Introduction to WSG, Web standards in practice
Browsercam is a great screenshot tool:
http://www.browsercam.com/
Or if absolutely desperate, I can send you screenshots of Mac IE in action,
but don't tell anyone :)
Russ
Hi list,
Is there a program or browser extension you recommend that I can use to see
what
my pages will look like
ADMIN - THREAD CLOSED
Reason:
The mail list does not cover: Discussion of content management/web
publishing system issues beyond those directly involved with Web Standards
http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
So, if you have comments, please answer Marco off-list.
For those
Until the last few months, the Australian Museum had around 80% of staff on
Netscape 4. I know of other New South Wales (a state of Australia)
Government departments who have the same issue.
I guess it comes down to checking out the target audience for the particular
site you are working on, then
Unfortunately I had not the correct arguments why this is not the
right way to do it. On this list, there are many discussions about how
to build the page semantically correct. Is there any info useful
information for starters about this subject available?
I don¹t know about resources, but
For those who are bored, or putting off doing real work, a quick read...
http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/remote/
The relevant CSS example is:
http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/remote/remote.htm
Russ
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Happy Birthday to W3C - ten years old today:
http://www.w3.org/News/2004#item192
One way to design a website
http://www.autisticcuckoo.net/archive.php?id=2004/11/29/one-way-to-design
This article has a very interesting comment:
An important detail, which most people forget, is to add rules for
Sounds like double margin bug:
http://www.positioniseverything.net/explorer/doubled-margin.html
In Firefox, the left nav displays correctly, but in IE, the nav is moved
further to the right than it is supposed to be, so I've had to make the image
narrower than it should be to fit into the
Now, I agree completely about the security risks. That alone is worth
dumping the browser for. Yet, I want to find out how exactly is IE falling
short of the DOM specs for e.g. Apart from some pet complaints about PNG
support, div border width calculation and default styles (which actually is
WSG Sydney is holding our end of year drinks, and have decided to combine it
with a Firefox birthday bash.
What: WSG end of year drinks and Firefox birthday bash
Where: Opera Bar
http://www.operabar.com.au/htmlfiles/index.html
When: Friday 10 December
Time: 6.30pm
Cost: free, pay for your own
And yes, I'd say it's common knowledge with (sighted) users that an
underline signifies a link. That's why it's not recommended to use
underlined styles for other texts. Of course, underlines are not the
only clue as to what is and isn't a link. In most cases, it depends on
context. E.g. in a
Opening a window without navigation elements doesn't
actually stop you from going back in the browser's
history.
You can either:
A. Hit the backspace button to go back
B. Right-click and choose back
This is all when and good, but many users are still only just getting the
concept of
ADMIN
Hi all,
This is probably not the forum for such things, and if not, my apologies,
but...I've been slaving away on a C# project in MS Visual Studio .NET (2002)
and have spent a good couple of hours trying to find out a way to stop the
blasted thing from ruining my lovely XHTML1.0
Bug Report
The Bug Report system is entirely dedicated to finding mending and
publishing CSS and JavaScript browse bugs:
http://www.quirksmode.org/bugreports/
Growing up with web standards:
http://www.boxofchocolates.ca/archives/2004/11/22/growing-up-with-web-standa
rds
Scalable round edges:
Please don't send these requests to the list. To unsubscribe, please go to
http://webstandardsgroup.org/ log in and select Unsubscribe.
There is a password retrieval system on the login screen in case you have
forgotten your password.
If you have trouble or want to comment on the running of the
Cameron Adams, aka the Man in Blue, talks about standards, his amazing site,
design, CSS Scrabble, the Web Standards Awards, accessible forms and more.
http://webstandardsgroup.org/features/cameron-adams.cfm
Russ
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I don't think you understand the issue of accessibility at all. In
many countries, laws have been needed to force people like you to
catch up.
THREAD CLOSED
I have been watching this thread for a while, concerned that it would move
from healthy discussion into abuse. It has.
This list is
THREAD CLOSED
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See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
EDS goes full CSS:
http://www.eds.com/
More on EDS's launch:
http://web-graphics.com/mtarchive/001457.php
The Mobile Web:
http://www.russellbeattie.com/notebook/1008162.html
The CSS Anthology: 101 Essential Tips, Tricks and Hacks, Chapter 2 - Text
Styling and Other Basics:
Roger Johansson talks about web standards, round corners, development
mistakes, ampersands and more:
http://webstandardsgroup.org/features/roger-johansson.cfm
Thanks
Russ
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See
We're pleased to announce the start of Wellington WSG. The first meeting is
about to get underway:
Date: Thursday 9 Dec
Time: 6pm - 8pm
Venue: e-vision Centre, 2 Blair Street Wellington
RSVP: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
At the first meeting there will be a brief introduction to the Web Standards
Group
THREAD CLOSED - WAY OFF TOPIC
Black underpants left in wash chewing-gum grey.
what happens if you mix every color in a standard palette? what is the
result color?
Dirty gray.
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
Uncollapsing Margins:
http://www.complexspiral.com/publications/uncollapsing-margins/
The Sound of the Accessible Title Tag Separators:
http://www.standards-schmandards.com/index.php?2004/11/06/6-the-sound-of-the
-accessible-title-tag-separator
Redesigning a Big Umbrella of Websites: The
Press release from W3C Australia...
The Australian W3C Office presents two key standards events - the Australia
W3C Day and XML Workshop.
Australian W3C Day: The Semantic Web is designed for IT professionals
wanting to learn more about the next step in the evolution of the Web. The
event
John talks about CSS Samuari, standards, Dao, dogs, line-height, font-size
and more:
http://webstandardsgroup.org/features/john-allsopp.cfm
Russ
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The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
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Date:
Thursday 11 November, 2004
Meeting time?
6:30pm - Informal start/Networking
7:00pm - Official start
Speakers:
Scott Parsons: CSS Diagnosis - a detailed breakdown into CSS problem
solving and bug hunting
Where:
Australian Museum
Search Discover Meeting Rooms (Level 2)
6 College Street,
The three city WSG meetings have almost aligned, like some freaky
astrological occurrence:
Brisbane WSG - Wednesday 10 November
Sydney WSG - Thursday 11 November
Melbourne WSG - Monday 15 November
Looks like three good topics will be presented too. Hope you can make it to
at least one of them if
how do you guys tackle image sizes when using liquid layouts? to my
knowledge, you can't really set relative sizes for images without
indirectly cropping the image, right?
Richard Rutter has written about this:
http://www.clagnut.com/sandbox/imagetest/
He also talked about it in his WSG
I have a list, each LI contains some text and an image. Text must be
on the left, image on the right. Also the text must be vertical
aligned middle and the height and width of the images may vary.
Is this possible or not?:)
Try this:
http://www.maxdesign.com.au/jobs/css/lista.htm
Not tested
Lists will be generated from a database. I can't set a class for each
li or image.
That's the biggest problem.
Want a rough-as-guts solution? Write your styles into the li element on the
fly from your database.
Look up the image name and it height. These two bits of info can be used to
And the url?
http://mouseriders.dk/ ?
It seems today is check my page day so I wondered if you would like to
check my page too. The products (produkter) is not done yet but the rest
should work fine.
**
The discussion list for
Bring on the tables - an excellent article by Roger Johansson:
http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200410/bring_on_the_tables/
Roger Hudson's recently launched Accessibility articles:
http://www.usability.com.au/resources/forms.cfm
http://www.usability.com.au/resources/pdf.cfm
Haven't looked closely but have you tried adding a border to the following
rule set to see if it is actually working, just not showing properly:
div#container
{
margin: 10px auto;
width: 600px;
height: 700px;
text-align: left;
background: #5A6995
The red border will highlight the div#container and possibly show that the
margin is working on div#header
I forgot to add that if this is the case, you are seeing margin trapping at
work. Previously discussed on-list:
http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/msg06982.html
R
There are a few ways around it. That is one (although it should be 7.5em?).
Another is to add a 1px border of the same colour as the container - depends
on your need.
Hi,
After removing the border the problem returned. So included a
padding-top of 5em; on the container div, is this the
1. Where can I find a good example of how forms should be laid out for
accessibility.
Try these:
http://www.d.umn.edu/itss/support/Training/Online/webdesign/accessibility.ht
ml#forms
http://www.nils.org.au/ais/web/resources/WSG_Oct_04/toc.html
2. Comment on div tags. If we are not suppose to
What is a standard?:
http://webstandards.org/buzz/archive/2004_10.html#a000463
SiFR - mezzoblue review:
http://www.mezzoblue.com/archives/2004/10/26/sifr/
Clearing Floats - The FnE Method:
http://www.orderedlist.com/articles/clearing_floats_fne
Semantically Correct Knockout Quotes:
Ummm... would that be the scroll bar?
A centred design will shift to the left on pages that are long - 25 pixels
or so, to make room for the scroll bar. If you jump between a long and a
short page... Well you get the idea...
:)
Russ
Hi, group.
I'm having what seems to be a brain block and
er, maybe it's my 'listless' disposition but why would you put a
breadcrumb in a list? The usual gt; seperators seem ideal, and if you
disable styles it is still a breadcrumb; what is the obsession with
putting everything in a list?
OK, I admit it... I am obsessed with lists and I hereby
but it didn't work. Only the last mentioned (#floatimgleft) worked and
(#container) reverted to general background color. Is there a way to
combine them - have I left out commas or something?
As Pat said, the comma is needed. More info here:
A busy time for WSG with three events coming up over the next few weeks.
1.
Melbourne Special WSG meeting
Accessibility and standards for web designers/developers
Date: Monday 25 October, 2004
Agenda: Steve Faulkner (NILS) - Techniques for making forms more
accessible and Brett Jackson (Fairfax
Did you paste it in exactly as you show below? If so, your sample would not
have worked as you had some odd characters in the rule set. Try this
(whitespace and line breaks are up to the individual as they are ignored
anyway):
* { padding:0; margin:0; }
It might be worthwhile reading some basic
I've been thinking on and off all day and I'd like to do an ignominious
about-face on the zeroing margin and padding technique.
My initial concerns were that:
1. could be more verbose
2. could confuse less-savy future developers.
The verbose issue is easy to overcome. You can zero margins and
I remember reading a similar suggestion a while back (I don't remember
where) which included {border : 0; font-site 100.1%; line-height : 1.6;}
(actually, other than being there, I don't remember what the line height
was, but I suppose it doesn't matter for this thread).
You may have been
Validation is being argued about again. It began with this post:
http://www.mikeindustries.com/blog/archive/2004/10/abcnews-redesigns
Which received some interesting comments via WASP:
http://webstandards.org/buzz/archive/2004_10.html#a000460
Then posts followed thick and fast:
Hi Nick,
I think this is very interesting but I have two problems with it:
1. Once you have removed all margin and padding, this method relies on you
specifically styling the margins and padding of each HTML element that you
intend to use. On smaller sites where you may only need to style
Two things.
You can shorten your three background declarations into one (depending on
the browsers you are trying to target):
background: #eee url(xxx.gif) repeat-y;
And you can place a unique id in the body element and then use this id to
change colours on individual pages without having to
Lyn,
Regarding id's and body elements... Here is a quick (and very rough) demo
page showing how an id within the body element to affect various
presentational aspects on three individual pages (click on the page links to
check out each page):
http://www.maxdesign.com.au/jobs/css/page-id/
The css
One of those completely unplanned things...
If you are in Brisbane right now and want to meet Doug Bowman (who is
stopping off for a few hours only), call me on 0403 433 980 or email
offlist.
Russ
**
The discussion list for
Hi all,
I have been noticing more CSS questions coming onto the list. This is all
cool. One of our main aims is to help developers move towards web
standards/best practice.
However, if you are just getting into CSS it might be worth your time
reading a few CSS classic articles:
Position is
Is it something that should be used on every container/wrapper? What
happens if I don't use it? I've seen some CSS on sites that use it
everwhere and then others that don't...
What happens if you don't use it? Depending on the way you lay out your
pages, earlier versions of IE (and the
Can we have a URL?
This will help others to help you!
Just a quick review of best practice when asking for help on any list (not
just WSG):
1. If possible, set up a sample page that shows just the problem in action.
2. Validate your HTML code
3. Validate your CSS code
4. Test the page on a
THREAD CLOSED
Please reply to Ben offlist. This is not on-topic. This mail list does not
cover discussions of server-side scripting beyond that directly involved
with Web Standards:
http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Thanks
Russ
Hi all,
I'm working on my own site at the
If you are using data tables, you need
to use at least table, tr, th and td and then associate the cells
(td's) with headers (th's).
Agree. Would be good to also include summary and caption in that list :)
Russ
**
The discussion list for
The WE04 was great but unfortunately none of the speakers discussed the
issue of making PDF files accessible. I am currently facing this
problem.
You may be after tagged pdf's:
http://www.planetpdf.com/enterprise/article.asp?ContentID=6067
http://www.webaim.org/techniques/acrobat/
(links
Are there any caveats to bear in mind when forcing Hx tags to be inline ?
Yes, but not from a structural point of view, from a visual point of view.
As soon as you convert something to inline you allow other inline elements
to run up beside it - depending on the available space in the parent
A lot of this comes down the the site and its intended audience.
However, you should keep in mind hand-held devices which are on the increase
in a major way. They have tiny screens. This means we really have to think
outside the standards screen sizes. A good mind-shift article is here:
a tiny screen option.
2c
Russ
On 9/24/04 2:39 AM russ - maxdesign [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent this out:
However, you should keep in mind hand-held devices which are on the increase
in a major way. They have tiny screens. This means we really have to think
outside the standards screen sizes
There have been a few comments on-list about meeting for drinks and such on
and around WE04 later this month.
To make things easy, we have added a WE04 blog entry that you can use to set
up whatever social event you want. Plus it frees up the WSG for important
discussions like... um...
Anyway,
Standards Savings:
http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/09/13/standards-savings/
Effect of z-index value to Releative Positioned and Absolute Positioned
blocks:
http://www.aplus.co.yu/CSSdesign/z-pos/
Spread Firefox:
http://www.spreadfirefox.com/
min-height: fixed;
Jon Hicks of Hicks Design talks about standards, his site, IE whitespace,
logo designs and browser resources. Read more:
Ten Questions for Jon Hicks.
http://webstandardsgroup.org/features/jon-hicks.cfm
Thanks
Russ
**
The discussion list for
Thank you all for comments, its worthy really
if you want to help I need
3) more web standards related bloggs,sites
Here are a few...
http://www.nypl.org/styleguide/
http://www.dezwozhere.com/links.html
http://www.unmatchedstyle.com/
http://www.stylegala.com/
http://www.cssbeauty.com/
Last Thursday night was our Adopting Web Standards - Free briefing for
Education and Government.
It was a highly successful night with almost 100 education and government
developers in attendance.
Roger Hudson presented Universal Accessibility - with some very
interesting demonstrations. His
The WSG ten question interviews are marked up as Definition lists:
http://webstandardsgroup.org/features/
More on definition lists here:
http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/definition/
Russ
What is the most semantic way to markup an interview?
Vaska,
Without seeing your problem (to see if other css rules have affected it) it
sounds like the 5 pixels you are talking about is space for characters that
require acutes, umlauts etc. Some browsers allow space for the full height
of these slightly taller characters within the paragraph box,
Sydney WSG meeting
Date: Thursday 16th September
Time: 6.30pm informal start for 7pm start
Where:
Australian Museum
Search Discover meeting room
Level 2
6 College Street Sydney
We have two exciting presentations lined up for the night.
1. Mark Stanton from Gruden will be talking about
Yes please
RSVP: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Keep in mind that we are keen to get other cities up and running with
meetings so contact Peter and I offlist if you want to know about your city
- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Thanks
Russ
on 3/9/04 3:24 PM, Neerav at wrote:
RSVP like normal to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ?
Hi all,
First of all, the Free Briefing for Education and Government next Thursday
night is all but full. We have over 70 people coming to this event which is
absolutely amazing.
We're really pleased that interest in web standards and accessibility has
spread throughout Australia over the last
This thread is now completely off topic.
THREAD CLOSED
Thanks
Russ
WE ARE NOT AUSSIES
WE ARE CLEARLY DIFFERENT/SUPERIOR TO THE AUSSIES
KIWI'S RULE!!!
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Proud presenters of Web
Please reply to Mark directly offlist as this is offtopic
Thanks
Russ
Hi All,
I've just bought the Domain XhtmlandCss.co.uk and wanted to offer
email forwarders to anyone intrested in one?
I know its not what i should really use the list for but i just
wanted to offer it out to y'all
PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of russ - maxdesign
Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 2:49 AM
To: Web Standards Group
Subject: Re: [WSG] Unaccessible - NY Attorney General busts two big name
sites
And of course, Bruce Maguire (the guy who sued SOCOG) will be speaking
about
accessibility and legal implications
BrowseHappy - a Web Standards Project initiative
http://browsehappy.com/
The future of accesskeys
http://www.wats.ca/articles/thefutureofaccesskeys/66
Fitts¹ Law and Text Links:
http://www.dbenton.com/go/chronicles/2004/08/22/fitts-law-and-text-links/
Line length (yet again)
And of course, Bruce Maguire (the guy who sued SOCOG) will be speaking about
accessibility and legal implications for Australian Developers at the
upcoming September WE04 conference.
:)
Russ
Have you forgotten Sydney Olympics web site, it was 4 years ago the Human
Rights Commission awarded
Pete,
This may sound insane but the problem is fixable by floating the ul element.
ul { float: left; }
0r if more specific version is needed:
ul#wrapped-list { float: left; }
This will have a major impact on content that comes after the list (will
appear up beside the list), but this could be
I tried that too, Hugh, but in Safari the background images on the list
items went all the way under the floated image. Each browser seems to have
their own reading on where the background of a list should stop.
Here is a sample page with both options:
Hi John,
Some step-by-step tutorials that may be of help to you:
3 column layout with fixed edge columns:
http://css.maxdesign.com.au/selectutorial/tutorial_intro.htm
3 column liquid layout:
http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/liquid/
3 column semi-liquid layout:
Geoff,
This was sort-of answered a few days ago, but it depends on the degree of
styling needed.
Ideally you could use descendant selectors - depending on your specific
need. With the use of correct table elements like th, thead, tbody, tfoot
etc you can style individual slabs of tables to look
Edd,
Without sounding like fence sitting, the answer would be it depends on the
situation and personal opinion.
You probably should start by separating out images into two categories;
(1) decorative images
(2) content-based images
(1) A decorative image is one that is purely superficial -
Hi Justin,
Not well supported by IE but you can do with adjacent sibling selectors:
td+td+td { background: red;}
Only the third column would display a red background
Sample:
http://www.maxdesign.com.au/jobs/css/adjacent.htm
Russ
Hi Folks,
Is there any way (without ids or classes) to
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