Re: [WSG] Re: Searching for standards information
On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 18:49, tee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Oct 25, 2008, at 11:35 PM, Elizabeth Spiegel wrote: In Australia, HREOC is responsible for administering various anti-discrimination legislation, including the Disability Discrimination Act. [...] One form of discrimination is offering a service to one group and refusing to offer it, or offering on less advantageous terms, to another group. I am very curious how is it possible to enforce this law. I don't really know about this so I am just making assumption that assistive software have not been caught up with the latest W3C recommendation, and the fact the W3C calls it a 'recommendation' instead of 'regulation/rule'. How the law draws the line? The law doesn't require you to follow WCAG or do anything like that. What it requires is that you don't provide a lesser service to people with a disability because they have that disability. The onus is on you to show that to provide an identical service would impose an undue hardship. In reality the law doesn't get touched very often when it comes to web accessibility (or even many other things). There was the famous SOCOG case (Sydney Olympics website was inaccessible and the committee was fined significantly for that) but that was nearly a decade ago now. If you were to be prosecuted the court (or more likely HREOC/Administrative Appeals Tribunal before it got to court) would consider what measures could be taken without imposing undue hardship upon the service provider to ensure that equitable access is available to people regardless of their disability. This will ultimately be a question of law (i.e. for the judge), though an argument can be put forward by either side as to what this would constitute. Often standard industry practice can be considered, but it is by no means conclusive. Regards, Michael -- http://mine.mjec.net/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Marking Up Poems
I would suggest that this is pre. Poetry is generally so display-specific that you couldn't hope to mark it up, I'd say. Michael On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 19:08, James Jeffery [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A question was raised at work today 'How do you mark up a poem'. I looked into it but found nothing worthy. My original thought was to use P's and class names, but one article I read said XML is perfect for this case. Whats your views on this, anyone actually did it before? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] NoScript Help Please!
Hey, My suggestion would be td class=..a href=...img src=.. alt=.. //a/td And attaching the onclick event to a with return false; to stop it executing when there is javascript. The alternative is to have an onload function that puts the image outside the a and deletes the a element. Both of these will degrade gracefully without needing that ugly noscript Regards, Michael On Wed, May 21, 2008 at 4:11 PM, IceKat [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I'm totally hoping that someone can help me with this. I'm trying to use noscript tags but I CANNOT get my page to validate. Below is the section which is giving me trouble. Please can someone tell me what the trouble is. td class=delete_filenoscripta href=a_link.htm/noscript img src=pics/delete.gif alt=Delete File /noscript/a/noscript/td I know it looks odd but this version does exactly what I need. However it refuses to validate. I use XHTML 1.0 strict and do not want to step down to transitional. Unless someone can tell me how to give javascript priority then I need to work this out because if I put the link in on it's own it does the javascript part and then does the link and I only want the link to be activated if javascript is turned off. Please someone help. I'm going crazy! IceKat. -- http://mine.mjec.net/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] MSIE causing trouble
Hi guys, I've got a page at http://youth.afairerworld.org/ which comes up with a 4em space above the div.content despite me doing everything imaginable to get rid of it. IE Web Dev Toolbar shows a 4em margin-top in the DOM Explorer, despite me not putting that in anywhere. Any assistance would be massively appreciated - I'm stuck. Thanks, Michael Cordover -- http://mine.mjec.net/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] MSIE causing trouble
There is a file: default.ie.css, linked from an IE conditional comment
and contains exactly that rule already.
Further suggestions?
Thanks,
Michael
On 3/4/07, Gunlaug Sørtun [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Michael Cordover wrote:
I've got a page at http://youth.afairerworld.org/ which comes up with
a 4em space above the div.content despite me doing everything
imaginable to get rid of it.
Not sure since I didn't bother to deconstruct everything, but a copy
shows that the margin on h1#banner is present and is just being covered
up by those IE corrections.
The addition of...
h1#banner {margin: 0;}
...seems to be all that's needed.
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Re: [WSG] MSIE causing trouble
I am the world's biggest fool. Thankyou for saving me. Regards, Michael On 3/5/07, Gunlaug Sørtun [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Michael Cordover wrote: There is a file: default.ie.css, linked from an IE conditional comment and contains exactly that rule already. Well, I didn't use that - or any other - conditionally commented stylesheet, and it all lined up just fine in IE/win. _If_ I use default.ie.css, then the ul.menu and .content is overlapping h1#banner, because you're using offsets with 'position: relative' and margins. What becomes apparent is that you are permanently serving IE/win a cascade of styles from all 4 stylesheets, because you have established a 'rel=stylesheet' instead of 'rel=alternate stylesheet' for _all_ of them in the conditional comments. Better check that. Georg -- http://mine.mjec.net/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] unobtrusive js help
On 3/2/07, Paul Novitski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please generate the notice server-side -- or hard-code it into the html -- so it shows up for everyone viewing the content. In addition to Paul's technically valid note (with which I, a noscript user, wholeheartedly agree), there's also a legal one. The year in a copyright notice should be the year of last revision. Coding it in with JavaScript will keep it up to date when it may not be, which would be a false copyright claim. Not so good. Make it the year of last modification of the page - either the data presented by a server-side script, or hard-coded when the page is changed. Regards, Michael *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] *Why* doesn't Google validate? was New logo scheme was talking points for standards
I think that Google's failure to validate may be due to the simple issue of bandwidth. Certainly on the main page, the whole source is compressed and effectively minimised. Bandwidth is expensive these days. Inserting a doctype, separating style data, that sort of thing, takes a lot of additional bandwidth when you're dealing with hits in the quantities that they do. Plus I don't think there's been a *code* change in there for years - apathy beats everything again. -mjec -- http://mine.mjec.net/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Will HTML be nicer to PHP than XHTML?
On 6/28/05, Collin Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
PHP can go hand in hand with Content Negotiation!
As a PHP developer first and a web designer second (sorry, I just
don't have design flare) let me say that PHP goes brilliantly for
XHTML. If you use output buffering then you can indeed convert
between XHTML 1.0 Strict and HTML 4.01 Strict automagically using
str_replace('/', '', $output); in your output buffer callback.
I also use HTTP Accept: scanning to determine whether to send as
application/xhtml+xml or text/html. I'm too lazy to run an output
buffer over most of my sites and do the naughty XHTML as text/html
thing then. I figure if a browser doesn't see application/xhtml+xml
it's probably not going to notice that I'm going with something
recommended against ;)
The biggest difficulty you're likely to encounter is your ?xml
declaration - this can be confused for a php open tag if
short_open_tag is on. Which it, in my opinion, should never be. But
in case it is (as it is by default), turn it off in php.ini or with a
.htaccess directive:
php_flag short_open_tag Off
If you need any help with php, especially coding good php to make a
standards-conformant website, I'd recommend you look on IRC,
specifically irc.freenode.net channel ##php.
Regards,
Michael Cordover
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Re: [WSG] there is no attribute name
Hi Thomas, On 5/15/05, Thomas Ditmars [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 14-May-05 13:47, Patrick H. Lauke wrote: a href=#contentgo to content/a ... div id=content ... Does this also apply to HTML 4.01 Strict? I guess my actual question is: What is the proper way of coding '#anchor-name' links in HTML 4.01 Strict? Yup, same mechanism. The #anchor has *always* refered to an id in the spec, referring to a name as a bit of an extra feature (read: incompatibility included for fun). HTH, mjec -- http://mine.mjec.net/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS3.0
CSS 3 Backgrounds and Borders module is in Working Draft stage. http://w3.org/Style/CSS/current-work#contribute details the mailing list which will allow you to make suggestions. HTH, Michael On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 23:31:20 +, David R [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just out of curiosity... Is the CSS3.0 Spec finalised, or are they still accepting suggestions and comments? Because I really want to suggest multiple background images for CSS3.0 (provided it isn't suggested already) Where do I find the Suggestion Box for the W3C? ;) Regards -- -David R ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- http://mine.mjec.net/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] XHTML Strict alternative to ol start=11
See, I'd say a table or a definition list. I think I'm one of the
very few people who actually supports the loss of the start=
attribute.
An ordered list means there is an order, *not* that there is anything
particular assocated with that order. So, think about it in terms of
set theory, if you will. An unordered list is like a set: {1, 2, 3}
which is the same as {3, 1, 2}. An ordered list, like an ordered set
- (1,2,3) which is distinct from (3, 1, 2). But a definition list is
like a mapping:
{ (1, 1), (2, 5), (3, 6) } which, in set theory, is just a subset of
{1, 2, 3} x {1, 5, 6}.
Apologies to those amongst you who don't do set theory. It'd be
better with diagrams. But the point is that if you want a starting
attribute in an ordered list you're actually setting up an assocation
between the number and the content of the list item. So you need a
definition list. Because an ordered list is just a way of defining a
relationship between the parts of the ordered list, not between the
parts of the ordered list and something outside.
So, i'd go with dl. My two cents.
Regards,
mjec
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On Mon, 07 Feb 2005 11:53:32 -, Kornel Lesinski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 23:19:02 +, Ian Fenn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Had I been doing it with HTML Transitional or similar, I would have
displayed a second page of results as follows:
ol start=11liFirst result/li
liSecond.../li
...
/ol
Do you have any suggestions as to how I could achieve a similar effect
with XHTML Strict?
I suggest to ignore specs and continue using start attribute,
because -- as you see -- specs are wrong.
Start belongs to content, and not (only) presentation.
You may create your own DTD if you care about validation.
--
regards, Kornel Lesiski
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Re: [WSG] Default state of radio buttons. (Maybe OT?)
IIRC though, while RFC 1866 says exactly one the checked attribute is optional in W3C guidelines. HTML 4.01 (and thus also the XHTML 1 series) state: [http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/interact/forms.html#radio] If no radio button in a set sharing the same control name is initially on, user agent behavior for choosing which control is initially on is undefined. So if you leave them both undefined, some UAs will select the first, some will select neither. I can't see many doing anything else. It's not standards aversion and I can't see why that's not ok. HTML4.01 spec goes on to say that authors should ensure one is selected by default but I'm not sure why you need consistant behavior in this case. If worst comes to worst, just have whichever one comes first in the page checked=checked. You'll be inconveniancing roughly half the people no matter which is checked by default. If neither are then it's the same inconvenience for everyone. I guess I'm saying that I'd consider this a moot point - check whichever you'd like and the user will deal with it. Regards, mjec On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 08:54:31 +1100, Wybrow, Mark [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Or pass hidden parameters onto the action page ... these then can be over ridden if the radio is selected From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Kear Sent: Wednesday, 2 February 2005 2:51 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Default state of radio buttons. (Maybe OT?) With radio buttons, no value is passed to the form's action page unless one of the options is selected. This will normally cause an error in the processing page unless special consideration is given to this possibility. Normally if there are radio buttons on the form, it is best to ensure that at least one option is selected. Cheers Mike Kear AFP Webworks Pty Ltd Windsor, NSW, Australia http://afpwebworks.com Industrial strength coldfusion, .asp, .asp.net, php hosting from A$15/month - Original Message From: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Default state of radio buttons. (Maybe OT?) Date: 01/02/05 20:56 I think this is like FAQs - my FAQ is never there. Likewise, pre-set a control to option A and I'm equally likely to want option B. IMHO pre-setting options for the user (unless they're VERY obvious) is like making assumptions about them. That said, RFC1866 says 'CHECKED' is optional but then says At all times, exactly one of the radio buttons in a set is checked. If none of the INPUT elements of a set of radio buttons specifies 'CHECKED', then the user agent must check the first radio button of the set initially. Does anybody know why one button has to be checked at all times in a circumstance like Chris referred to? Thanks Rowan Quoting Iain Gardiner [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Oops, sorry I didn't really read your question thoroughly. Surely an e-mail address will be either a personal or a business address. Personally I'd set the default to personal as this seems to me the most likely option. Iain -- Iain Gardiner http://www.firelightning.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris W. Parker Sent: 01 February 2005 19:12 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Default state of radio buttons. (Maybe OT?) Hello, Not sure if this is off topic or not, but let me know if it is. I'm wondering what the suggested default state of a group of radio buttons is? Let me use a current, specific example. In a form I'm writing I have one set of radio buttons. The current options are 'Home', or 'Agency'. The radio button is meant to designate what type of mailing address the customer has provided. Right now I've got neither option being defaulted to. I know that radio buttons should have exactly one option chosen at all times, but in this case it doesn't make sense to add a third option of 'None', or have the group default to one option or the other. How should I handle this? Should I bite the bullet and have the options default to one of the options (both options will probably be chosen an equal amount of times, as has been the case in the past)? Or maybe I should go to a drop down list with three options? 1. '-', 2. 'Home', 3. 'Agency' Your feedback is appreciated. Chris. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See
Re: [WSG] standards in local government
Hi, I was even more surprised to find an entire Australian government department website not only uses an effective table-free design, not only has a website which is at least partially accessible, not only does it collapse well when styling is removed, it is also XHTML 1.0 conformant! http://www.dfat.gov.au/ Incredible. Unfortunately they've got *one* CSS error. Ahh well, they're not doing too shabbily... Regards, mjec On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 21:05:31 -, designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi All, I was surprised to find a local government web site (English) using standards and accessibility: http://www.oldham.gov.uk/ It doesn't quite validate, but it's a determined start! Bob McClelland, Cornwall (U.K.) www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- http://mine.mjec.net/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] First Thoughts On Layout...
Hi Chris, Looks pretty good to me. Looks very good in fact. Just one tiny niggle. If images are turned off but style sheets are used, your footer links are invisible, as is your title link! I'm fairly certain this isn't a good thing ;). This is why the img alt= method is generally used, rather than your backgroud: url() method. Overall a good site, as long as that hiccough can be fixed. Regards, mjec On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 11:22:22 +1100, Chris Stratford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey List, Just wondering what you think of my layout: I haven't completed much at all. Just the first page, and a few pages are linked up also. www.neester.com I have done a few things that I haven't seen done before... Well the image replacement in the footer for one, is there anything wrong with the method I have used? It validates fine everywhere. I gave the link a TITLE to that you can read the tooltip for more info etc. Also the Dates on the right side of the titles, I used a method like this: dtTitle Here emdate here/em/dt so without styles, the title and date are easy to differentiate and also - it gives me the em tag to position the date :) What are your first thoughts? Thanks!! -- Chris Stratford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.neester.com -- http://mine.mjec.net/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] NVU IDE
On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 13:14:49 -0500, James Bennett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 10:17:14 -0500, David Laakso [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The home page for this site has 100 HTML errors, 11 CSS errors, uses inline styles, and sets the fonts in points. that site was not generated with NVU. This doesn't excuse their shoddy code, but I don't think it should reflect upon the editor. Something that *does* reflect on the editor: blockquote cite=http://www.nvu.com/index.html; a href=http://www.nvu.com;img src=http://www.nvu.com/made-with-Nvu-t.png; alt=Document made with Nvu border=0/a /blockquote As I recall, the border attribute is depreciated [http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/objects.html#adef-border-IMG]. I'm yet to find a WYSIWYG editor that even vaguely conforms to standards - not because it can't be done but because people who can make good applications can rarely make good websites. They utilise depreciated attributes, tables and simiar systems because it's easier from an application-design point of view. * sigh * Well, that's my rant for today. Regards, mjec -- http://mine.mjec.net/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] scribbles
Hi Bob, You make a good point. But the reason I don't use new windows isn't accesibility. It's an irritation at having new windows opened for me. Being a firefox user, I open in a new tab when I want to and in the current otherwise. People know what they want, generally, and are able to perform that actoin. The only popular non-tabbed browser is IE 6, where one can always open in a new window if one wants. The case for mini-popups (smaller sized windows, sized through the javascript window.open()) is somewhat different - indeed they can often be quite useful. But if you're just opening a new window because it's what you want - I don't consider it useful. My two cents. mjec -- http://mine.mjec.net/ On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 12:48:17 -, designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi All, I'm not 'doing a blog', but have started to put down some thoughts about various areas of this 'new philosophy' which have me (as a newcomer of only 4 months to 'standards') totally confused. The first endeavour concerns the classic - opening new windows. My scribbling can be seen at: http://www.betasite.fsnet.co.uk/comment/scribblings.html I have not put this up to bring down the wrath of the evangelists, nor to cause a list war, but to express my confusion and hopefully promote some emreasoned/em debate amongst intelligent web design folk. I am genuinely confused by this, but am open minded and amenable to being convinced. Thanks, Bob McClelland, Cornwall (U.K.) www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Re: Advantage of word-wrapping?
On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 19:23:58 -, Kornel Lesinski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In both cases, UAs will render the content exactly the same... I was wondering if there were any advantages to the former... I heard something about some obscure UAs ignoring content beyond the 80th Column or something myth. BUT - for development purposes wrapping is far more readable. Same way that code indenting is a nice thing to do but serves no practical purpose. Of course, if you're very concerned about page size (kb wise) the wrapping, indenting etc are just pointless wastes of space. Regards mjec -- http://mine.mjec.net/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
