Re: [WSG] Leopard mail and standards
From: "Christian Montoya" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> On 10/22/07, Al Sparber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: From: "Breton Slivka" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Have you tried outlook 2007 Lately? the way it reads/displays html has > been THE issue ever since it was released. No. I'd assumed it displayed the same as OE6 or Windows Mail (Vista). A.. it doesn't. You should do a test and send us your results. For the type of announcements we send out, the problems are minimal. In testing, we find that Font-family is not properly picked up and padding is junked. So this page, representative of our mailings, is acceptable and not, in our opinion worth the bother of hacking up: http://www.projectseven.com/products/menusystems/pmm/style-packs/pmmsp/mail/ I guess the bottom line is to keep it simple. It's only an email. A bigger problem for html email senders is what happens when the page is viewed in some web-based mails. -- Al Sparber - PVII http://www.projectseven.com Extending Dreamweaver - Nav Systems | Galleries | Widgets Authors: "42nd Street: Mastering the Art of CSS Design" *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Leopard mail and standards
To everybody who has answered me in this thread: 1. I do realize that it is impossible to use perfect markup today, mainly because of the ghastly Outlook 2007. (A product I am boycotting BTW - but tell the to the mobile phone manufacturers. "It syncs with Outlook" is the ubiquitous sales pitch.) 2. I do realize that the rendering engine in use will be the same one as in Safari, which means really good CSS support but rather crappy (but improving) JS/DOM support (which is a non issue in mail, IMHO). BUT: When I outlined the issues (accessibility, separation of concerns, valid code) my question was perhaps a bit too unspecific. Will they implement best practices as far as it is possible today. Will it be step in the right direction or yet another step away from it. In my world its a sliding scale, not an either - or! Lars Gunther *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Leopard mail and standards
On 10/22/07, Al Sparber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > From: "Breton Slivka" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Have you tried outlook 2007 Lately? the way it reads/displays html has > > been THE issue ever since it was released. > > No. I'd assumed it displayed the same as OE6 or Windows Mail (Vista). A.. it doesn't. You should do a test and send us your results. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Leopard mail and standards
From: "Breton Slivka" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Have you tried outlook 2007 Lately? the way it reads/displays html has been THE issue ever since it was released. No. I'd assumed it displayed the same as OE6 or Windows Mail (Vista). Here's an online copy of one of our announcement mails which does display fine in OE and Vista Mail: http://www.projectseven.com/products/menusystems/pmm/style-packs/pmmsp/mail/ That's about as complex, CSS-wise as we'd ever make a mailer, so based on Patrick's remarks, floats and background images might poke some holes in it :-) -- Al Sparber - PVII http://www.projectseven.com Extending Dreamweaver - Nav Systems | Galleries | Widgets Authors: "42nd Street: Mastering the Art of CSS Design" *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Leopard mail and standards
> I'm not entirely sure. The HTML/plain text announcements we send out are > standards-based with one exception - we embed the CSS in the body section. > These mails display perfectly in Outlook, OE, Windows Mail, Apple Mail, and > Thunderbird. The problem with Outlook, I believe, is more to do with what it > generates, rather than what it can read/display. > > -- > Al Sparber - PVII > http://www.projectseven.com > Extending Dreamweaver - Nav Systems | Galleries | Widgets > Authors: "42nd Street: Mastering the Art of CSS Design" Have you tried outlook 2007 Lately? the way it reads/displays html has been THE issue ever since it was released. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Leopard mail and standards
Al Sparber wrote: The problem with Outlook, I believe, is more to do with what it generates, rather than what it can read/display. Haven't had a chance to play with the final product, but from what I remember it is indeed a fundamental problem with its display capabilities. From http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2007/01/10/microsoft-breaks-html-email-rendering-in-outlook/ * no support for background images (HTML or CSS) * no support for forms * no support for Flash, or other plugins * no support for CSS floats * no support for replacing bullets with images in unordered lists * no support for CSS positioning * no support for animated GIFs P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team http://streetteam.webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Leopard mail and standards
From: "Patrick H. Lauke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sorry, had to go back and re-read the thread starter. In rushing through my mail, I thought the question was more along the lines of "will it support our carefully crafted HTML/CSS emails", but I see now that it specifically concerned the shipped templates. In which case yes, their templates will probably not follow full separation, simply because they'll have to actually work with Outlook. I'm not entirely sure. The HTML/plain text announcements we send out are standards-based with one exception - we embed the CSS in the body section. These mails display perfectly in Outlook, OE, Windows Mail, Apple Mail, and Thunderbird. The problem with Outlook, I believe, is more to do with what it generates, rather than what it can read/display. -- Al Sparber - PVII http://www.projectseven.com Extending Dreamweaver - Nav Systems | Galleries | Widgets Authors: "42nd Street: Mastering the Art of CSS Design" *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Leopard mail and standards
Breton Slivka wrote: and my point was: Apple isn't advertising the templates as being only viewable in Apple mail, it's advertising them as being viewable in *any* mail client. This implies that they do not have seperation of concerns, because there's no standard of support for that. Sorry, had to go back and re-read the thread starter. In rushing through my mail, I thought the question was more along the lines of "will it support our carefully crafted HTML/CSS emails", but I see now that it specifically concerned the shipped templates. In which case yes, their templates will probably not follow full separation, simply because they'll have to actually work with Outlook. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team http://streetteam.webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Leopard mail and standards
Apologies- I didn't mean my original post as a direct response to patrick, merely a response to the thread. On 10/23/07, Breton Slivka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > and my point was: Apple isn't advertising the templates as being only > viewable in Apple mail, it's advertising them as being viewable in > *any* mail client. > > This implies that they do not have seperation of concerns, because > there's no standard of support for that. > *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Leopard mail and standards
and my point was: Apple isn't advertising the templates as being only viewable in Apple mail, it's advertising them as being viewable in *any* mail client. This implies that they do not have seperation of concerns, because there's no standard of support for that. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Leopard mail and standards
Breton Slivka wrote: Would you want the mail templates to use standards and seperation of concerns? Last time I looked, it was well nigh impossible to get an email that was standards based AND rendered properly in virtually *any* email client. Im sure they could have made the templates standards based, in which case, the only people who would be able to see them is other apple mail users. Since they advertise that they use "standard html that renders in any email client" I would say that they are probably a mess of inline css and tables, and possibly divs. Just remember back to what the output of iWeb was like. But my point was: if it does use Webkit (rather than a monstrosity like Word's rendering engine), it can understand separation of concerns. Whether its factory-shipped templates are clean or not is secondary, in my view. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team http://streetteam.webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Leopard mail and standards
Would you want the mail templates to use standards and seperation of concerns? Last time I looked, it was well nigh impossible to get an email that was standards based AND rendered properly in virtually *any* email client. Im sure they could have made the templates standards based, in which case, the only people who would be able to see them is other apple mail users. Since they advertise that they use "standard html that renders in any email client" I would say that they are probably a mess of inline css and tables, and possibly divs. Just remember back to what the output of iWeb was like. On 10/23/07, Patrick H. Lauke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Keryx Web wrote: > > When Outlook 2007 came out it incurred upon itself the righteous wrath > > of all standardistas thanks to the stupid decision to use Word as its > > HTML/CSS rendering engine. > > > > In a few days Mac OS X Leopard will be out with much touted templates > > for the mail app. Here is my question: Are these made with standards, > > accessibility and separation of concerns in mind? > > I think it's fair to assume that it'll use Webkit as its rendering > engine http://developer.apple.com/opensource/internet/webkit.html > > P > -- > Patrick H. Lauke > __ > re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively > [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] > www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk > http://redux.deviantart.com > __ > Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force > http://webstandards.org/ > __ > Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team > http://streetteam.webstandards.org/ > __ > > > *** > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > *** > > *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Leopard mail and standards
Keryx Web wrote: When Outlook 2007 came out it incurred upon itself the righteous wrath of all standardistas thanks to the stupid decision to use Word as its HTML/CSS rendering engine. In a few days Mac OS X Leopard will be out with much touted templates for the mail app. Here is my question: Are these made with standards, accessibility and separation of concerns in mind? I think it's fair to assume that it'll use Webkit as its rendering engine http://developer.apple.com/opensource/internet/webkit.html P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team http://streetteam.webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Leopard mail and standards
It would seem odd if Apple went down the same path as Microsoft, especially since using Word to render HTML/CSS in Outlook 2007 was so well received by the web development community! I'm sure they won't want to be accused of following Microsoft. Also, I have a feeling they wouldn't have bothered negotiating with Microsoft for the use of Word as their new rendering engine... nick lazar 8bits Media http://8bits.com.au On 22 Oct 2007, at 15:59, Jason Pruim wrote: On Oct 22, 2007, at 10:27 AM, Keryx Web wrote: When Outlook 2007 came out it incurred upon itself the righteous wrath of all standardistas thanks to the stupid decision to use Word as its HTML/CSS rendering engine. In a few days Mac OS X Leopard will be out with much touted templates for the mail app. Here is my question: Are these made with standards, accessibility and separation of concerns in mind? Lars Gunther *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Leopard mail and standards
On Oct 22, 2007, at 10:27 AM, Keryx Web wrote: When Outlook 2007 came out it incurred upon itself the righteous wrath of all standardistas thanks to the stupid decision to use Word as its HTML/CSS rendering engine. In a few days Mac OS X Leopard will be out with much touted templates for the mail app. Here is my question: Are these made with standards, accessibility and separation of concerns in mind? Lars Gunther Hi Lars, Quoted from: "HTTP://www.apple.com/macosx/features/mail.html": "Sincerely yours. Mail for Leopard features more than 30 professionally designed stationery templates that make a virtual keepsake out of every email you send. From invitations to birthday greetings, stationery templates feature coordinated layouts, fonts, colors, and drag-and-drop photo placement from your iPhoto library — everything to help you get your point across. You can even create personalized templates. Messages created with stationery in Mail use standard HTML that can be read by popular webmail services and email programs on both Mac computers and PCs." Until it's actually released I'm not sure that anyone will be willing to say anything more then that since the people who know are under NDA's... But it's only 4 days and 7 hours until the release :) -- Jason Pruim Raoset Inc. Technology Manager MQC Specialist 3251 132nd ave Holland, MI, 49424 www.raoset.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Leopard mail and standards
Although it's quite annoying but it does make some sense at some weird level, having IE as their rendering engine with its shambled security it was easy for a lot of spammers and hackers to inflect a lot of damage on less experienced web users. I actually think it was quite a good idea although its near impossible nowadays to make it cross browsers decent newsletter and forget about background images. M. Jama big:interactive 91 Princedale Road Holland Park London W11 4NS Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Direct: +44 (0)20 7313 2262 www.biggroup.co.uk -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keryx Web Sent: 22 October 2007 15:27 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Leopard mail and standards When Outlook 2007 came out it incurred upon itself the righteous wrath of all standardistas thanks to the stupid decision to use Word as its HTML/CSS rendering engine. In a few days Mac OS X Leopard will be out with much touted templates for the mail app. Here is my question: Are these made with standards, accessibility and separation of concerns in mind? Lars Gunther *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
