Re: [WSG] Interview markup?
Justin French said: "Sure, the W3 spec suggests DLs to be used for conversations and other non-DL purposes, and we've seen some great examples out there, but the reality is that (last time I researched), DL's are still announced by screen readers as "a definition list of N items", which would *really* confuse me in the context of an interview being read to me by a screen reader." Then you'll also know that screen readers say the word "equals" between a and its (s) - Somthing that would make a lot of sense in the examples Russ gave... "What's your favourie colour" - 'equals' - "Joe: My favourite colour is not blue." The deciding point (for me) is totally the context of the interview. If it was a formal interview that was the only focus of the page, which would also include an introduction of the interviewee at the top - the Q A approach would make the most sense. If, on the other hand, the interview was in a blog entry or similar, I would use the to announce each speaker. The mere fact that a (semi) heated debate can arrise around a single semantic issue is a great indication that everyone involved is doing their best to contribute to the 'semantic web'. Andrew. http://leftjustified.net/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Interview markup?
I think that this is a great discussion. I think that the exact markup depends on how you choose to structure the interview. If it's very structured, (i.e strict Q followed by A) sucha s you might get with a questionairre then: Question 1 Answer1 Q2 A2 etc... However, if it is more a conversational type interview then: Tim said The binford 6100 powersaw ararar... Al said I don't think so Tim etc... ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
RE: [WSG] Interview markup?
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of russ - maxdesign Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 9:36 AM To: Web Standards Group Subject: Re: [WSG] Interview markup? Drew, I disagree with your argument (below) for three reasons. 1. Dialogs and Q&A's have the same fundamental need. The speaker and speakers text, or questions and answers should ideally be tied together - as they have a direct relationship with each other (name/value sets). The questions do not need to be related at all. For example Interview: Question 1 - socks Answer to question 1 Question 2 - national dept Answer to question 2 2. The definition list allows for as much rambling as is needed. You can use block level elements in the definition description, such as the and elements. This means you can have something like the following: Interview: Question Answer - paragraph 1 Answer - paragraph 2 Answer - paragraph 3 All these paragraphs, which can ramble as needed, are still completely tied to the question, via the DT and DD elements. 3. To take this one step further - using your example of one question and multiple answers (different people answering the same question), the definition list is still the best method for linking questions and answers. For example: Interview: Question Person 1 answer Person 2 answer Or given an even more complex option: Question Person 1 - paragraph 1 Person 1 - paragraph 2 Person 1 - paragraph 3 Person 2 - paragraph 1 Person 2 - paragraph 2 Person 2 - paragraph 3 Given the example directly above, how would you differentiate person 1 from person 2 but still tie them both to the same question using paragraphs? This linking is much harder to achieve using paragraphs, but simple, and semantically correct using a definition list. As always, just personal opinion. Russ * I'll stand corrected. It could be done as a dialogue but it would have to be done in accordance with the definition of a dialogue. A dialogue consists of a dt | dd pair with "each DT naming a speaker, and each DD containing his or her words". So to work as a dialogue the Q&A, combining your first two examples, would have to have this structure: mr. johnson what color are you socks> ms oneil I'm not wearing any socks mrs. mcgee how can we pay off the national debt ms oneil with rational fiscal policies and a nice creative accounting wouldn't hurt Your third example would consist of: mr. johnson what color are you socks> ms oneil I'm not wearing any socks major tom ah yeah socks mr smith socks are a very over done topic we need to consider other footwear beyond the simple sock The examples you gave wouldn't work as a dialogue by definition. Nor could the examples be regarded as a standard definition list since a question(s) and answer(s) are not "a term and a description". You'd be better off with a heading and paragraph combination. Questions: what color are your socks? Ms Oneil: I'm not wearing any socks Maj Tom: ah yeah socks Mr. Smith: socks are a very over done topic we need to consider other footwear beyond the simple sock how can we pay off the national debt? Ms Oneil: with rational fiscal policies and a nice creative accounting wouldn't hurt Of course Justin's point may trump everything. drew ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
RE: [WSG] Interview markup?
As I pointed out previously, the DT is the question and the DD is the answer. Tom Jones: What is your favorite color? Lee Roberts: Blue is my favorite color. Tom Jones: What is your favorite movie? Lee Roberts: The Court Jester. Larry King: What is the most important evolution in computing in the past decade? Steve Jobs: The Mac G4 series computer. Bill Gates: Why, Windows, of course. Michael Dell: Decreased costs, high reliability and excellent customer service. As you see the problem is solved. Yes, the screen reader will announce there are X number of definitions in the list. That's a problem for the UAAG to solve. It is not a problem you as a developer need to solve. Rather it is just something you should be aware of. Perhaps this will help. Lee Roberts http://www.roserockdesign.com http://www.applepiecart.com -- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 7.0.262 / Virus Database: 264.8.0 - Release Date: 9/6/2004 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Interview markup?
Russ, et al, Sure, the W3 spec suggests DLs to be used for conversations and other non-DL purposes, and we've seen some great examples out there, but the reality is that (last time I researched), DL's are still announced by screen readers as "a definition list of N items", which would *really* confuse me in the context of an interview being read to me by a screen reader. True, perhaps the screen reader shouldn't announce it as such (given the W3 specs) but the reality is that it has to announce *something*, and it certainly won't be "an interview with N questions". Again, I know the W3 spec suggests it, but it's poor semantics at best *if the web page author cares much about those using assistive devices like screen readers*. End of the day, it's up to the author to decide on what's best for the audience perhaps? --- Justin French http://indent.com.au ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Interview markup?
Drew, I disagree with your argument (below) for three reasons. 1. Dialogs and Q&A's have the same fundamental need. The speaker and speakers text, or questions and answers should ideally be tied together - as they have a direct relationship with each other (name/value sets). The questions do not need to be related at all. For example Interview: Question 1 - socks Answer to question 1 Question 2 - national dept Answer to question 2 2. The definition list allows for as much rambling as is needed. You can use block level elements in the definition description, such as the and elements. This means you can have something like the following: Interview: Question Answer - paragraph 1 Answer - paragraph 2 Answer - paragraph 3 All these paragraphs, which can ramble as needed, are still completely tied to the question, via the DT and DD elements. 3. To take this one step further - using your example of one question and multiple answers (different people answering the same question), the definition list is still the best method for linking questions and answers. For example: Interview: Question Person 1 answer Person 2 answer Or given an even more complex option: Question Person 1 - paragraph 1 Person 1 - paragraph 2 Person 1 - paragraph 3 Person 2 - paragraph 1 Person 2 - paragraph 2 Person 2 - paragraph 3 Given the example directly above, how would you differentiate person 1 from person 2 but still tie them both to the same question using paragraphs? This linking is much harder to achieve using paragraphs, but simple, and semantically correct using a definition list. As always, just personal opinion. Russ > A dialogue is not a Q&A session. Dialogues involve an interactive, > protracted process in which the speakers react to and interact with each > other. This is the case whether it is a conversation between people or a > contrived situation as in a script or book. In either case the dt would, as > the specs say, name the speaker, and the dd would contain her words. The > next dt would be the next speaker and the accompanying dd his words. The > structure is speaker | speaker's words. The speaker and the speakers words > are structurally linked together. This is not the model of a Q&A. > > A Q&A is more like a press conference. The questions are not necessarily > related. One question could deal with the color of socks and the next with > the national debt. In a dialogue identifying who is speaking is important -- > it provides a means for following an individuals line of reasoning > throughout what can be a protracted interchange. Whereas in a Q&A the > identity of the questioner is unimportant, it is the answer which matters. > > Yet there is some sense and structure to a Q&A. The person being interviewed > has information which the interviewer(s) is(are) trying to elicit. There is > an overall point even if the exchange itself is meandering and disjointed. > There is only one linguistic element which has the flexibility to > accommodate such a rambling exchange and that is the paragraph. A paragraph > is both complete in and of itself and when grouped with other paragraphs in > some sectioning scheme, requires at least a tenuous connection between > paragraphs. That's what a Q&A is: a grouped series of responses focused on > the of responses of the interviewee regardless of many interviewers > participate or how disjointed the questions. It's the voice of the > interviewee that matters making a dialogue format inappropriate. Only > paragraphing can create a cohesive whole from potentially disjointed parts. > > drew ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
RE: [WSG] Interview markup?
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lea de Groot Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2004 2:12 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Interview markup? On Sun, 05 Sep 2004 14:53:46 +1000, Michael Nelson wrote: > I mean, a definition list is really for definitions No, I don't agree. The W3C docs site two example uses: - a standard term and definition usage, and - marking up dialogues. see http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/lists.html#h-10.3 Clearly, the second of these is *not* a definition, and is somewhat close to an interview. I think its perfect for an interview type layout Lea ** A dialogue is not a Q&A session. Dialogues involve an interactive, protracted process in which the speakers react to and interact with each other. This is the case whether it is a conversation between people or a contrived situation as in a script or book. In either case the dt would, as the specs say, name the speaker, and the dd would contain her words. The next dt would be the next speaker and the accompanying dd his words. The structure is speaker | speaker's words. The speaker and the speakers words are structurally linked together. This is not the model of a Q&A. A Q&A is more like a press conference. The questions are not necessarily related. One question could deal with the color of socks and the next with the national debt. In a dialogue identifying who is speaking is important -- it provides a means for following an individuals line of reasoning throughout what can be a protracted interchange. Whereas in a Q&A the identity of the questioner is unimportant, it is the answer which matters. Yet there is some sense and structure to a Q&A. The person being interviewed has information which the interviewer(s) is(are) trying to elicit. There is an overall point even if the exchange itself is meandering and disjointed. There is only one linguistic element which has the flexibility to accommodate such a rambling exchange and that is the paragraph. A paragraph is both complete in and of itself and when grouped with other paragraphs in some sectioning scheme, requires at least a tenuous connection between paragraphs. That's what a Q&A is: a grouped series of responses focused on the of responses of the interviewee regardless of many interviewers participate or how disjointed the questions. It's the voice of the interviewee that matters making a dialogue format inappropriate. Only paragraphing can create a cohesive whole from potentially disjointed parts. drew ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Interview markup?
Yeah, good point Lea. From your link: "Another application of DL, for example, is for marking up dialogues, with each DT naming a speaker, and each DD containing his or her words." That makes (meaningful) sense - the definition term being the speaker and the description being what the speaker said - and seems much more inline with the structure/meaning that a definition list implies. It also provides the extra meaning within the markup itself - identifying the speaker for each item. I'd thought people were talking about using dt/dd to separate the question from the answer (which is quite different, yet seems to be how it is often used). Thanks for the correction Lea! -Michael On Sun, 2004-09-05 at 16:12, Lea de Groot wrote: > On Sun, 05 Sep 2004 14:53:46 +1000, Michael Nelson wrote: > > I mean, a definition list is really for definitions > > No, I don't agree. > The W3C docs site two example uses: > - a standard term and definition usage, and > - marking up dialogues. > see http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/lists.html#h-10.3 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Interview markup?
On Sun, 05 Sep 2004 14:53:46 +1000, Michael Nelson wrote: > I mean, a definition list is really for definitions No, I don't agree. The W3C docs site two example uses: - a standard term and definition usage, and - marking up dialogues. see http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/lists.html#h-10.3 Clearly, the second of these is *not* a definition, and is somewhat close to an interview. A Definition List, despite its poor name, is useful for linking series of two elements. A1->A2 B1->B2 C1->C2 (yes, also D1->D2, D3) I think its perfect for an interview type layout Lea -- Lea de Groot Elysian Systems - I Understand the Internet The leading http://elysiansystems.com/";>Brisbane Search Engine Optimisation firm Brisbane, Australia ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Interview markup?
> What is the most semantic way to markup an interview? I've been thinking about this a bit. If I did want to find the _most semantic_ way to markup an interview (I can't imagine thinking about it if we hadn't been discussing it though ;-), why wouldn't a paragraph with a meaningful class be the best solution (such as the speaker or whether it's a question or answer)? I mean, a definition list is really for definitions, and headings are really meant for, well, headings. Given that there is no element in XHTML specifically for interview questions and answers, a paragraph is the most applicable element that is still semantically (meaningfully) correct - we just want to give it a bit more meaning with some well-chosen classes. For example, a paragraph could simply be given a class corresponding to the person speaking (class="interviewee" or class="DarrinHinch") or even two classes to be more meaningful (class="interviewer statement" or class="interviewer question" (aside: i've seen this in XML but not sure if two values for a class is actually correct in XHTML?)) Anyway, that being said, not sure that it matters too much :-) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Interview markup?
The WSG "ten question" interviews are marked up as Definition lists: http://webstandardsgroup.org/features/ More on definition lists here: http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/definition/ Russ > What is the most semantic way to markup an interview? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
RE: [WSG] Interview markup?
Heading tags are not appropriate nor semantically correct. is used for quoting a citation from a book, article or other piece of work referenced in an article. This is more adeptly used in reference articles. is the most appropriate method as it not only visually separates the question from the answer, but it also indicates that the text in the definition actually answers or defines the question or term in the definition type. I hope this helps. Lee Roberts http://www.roserockdesign.com http://www.applepiecart.com -- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 7.0.262 / Virus Database: 264.7.7 - Release Date: 9/3/2004 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Interview markup?
I'd go for definition lists, overkill or not. Q A Failing that, the question could be in headings interview Q1 ... Q2 ... Patrick Sage Olson wrote: Oops, sorry I wasn't more specific… I meant a large interview that takes up an entire article, something like this: http://www.macthemes.net/articles/insider/000189.php (Note: I'm not a staff member or anything of MacThemes.) They've used bold tags to indicate the interviewer's questions, and regular text to indicate the interviewee's answer. However, I'd like a more semantic way of doing it, if there is one (I'm not sure if definition lists would be overkill, but everybody seems to be using them for just about everything these days). -Sage On Sep 4, 2004, at 1:37 PM, Lennart Fylling wrote: Sage Olson wrote: What is the most semantic way to markup an interview? I believe it must beand for bigger phrases, you can use Correct me someone if I'm wrong. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** -- _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Interview markup?
Oops, sorry I wasn't more specific… I meant a large interview that takes up an entire article, something like this: http://www.macthemes.net/articles/insider/000189.php (Note: I'm not a staff member or anything of MacThemes.) They've used bold tags to indicate the interviewer's questions, and regular text to indicate the interviewee's answer. However, I'd like a more semantic way of doing it, if there is one (I'm not sure if definition lists would be overkill, but everybody seems to be using them for just about everything these days). -Sage On Sep 4, 2004, at 1:37 PM, Lennart Fylling wrote: Sage Olson wrote: What is the most semantic way to markup an interview? I believe it must beand for bigger phrases, you can use Correct me someone if I'm wrong. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Interview markup?
Sage Olson wrote: > What is the most semantic way to markup an interview? > I believe it must beand for bigger phrases, you can use Correct me someone if I'm wrong. -- Lennart Fylling Aalesund Norway > ** > The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ > > Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ > Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge > To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 > > See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > for some hints on posting to the list & getting help > ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
