Re: [WSG] css title styles
Hi Sarah, I was just looking for a way to give the user immediate feedback about each reference, and thought the title may be useful. The problem with linking back and forth is that there are *so* many references on each page, sometimes two or three to each quote, so it gets a bit messy. Perhaps this is more of a content consideration, i.e. that inline references are supplementary to the central narrative? If the reader is *required* to check each reference to understand the author's intended meaning/understanding, it would suggest that the content could do with another draft ; ). If re-written and truncated to suit it's use as a short-hand identification of the origins of the opinion/quotation, the title attribute on a source anchor (that links to the full reference) would appear to be a good compromise. Although a deviation from strict academic referencing practice, consider moving the title of the work to the front of the attribute value: a href=#ref1 title=The mode of action of lipid-soluble antioxidants in biological membranes. Relationship between the effects of ubiquinol and vitamin E as inhibitors of lipid peroxidation in submitochondrial particles., Ernster L, Forsmark P amp; Nordenbrand K. (1992)sup[1]/sup/a It might even be appropriate to omit all other details (year, author(s), publisher, etc.) and strip out the strapline. a href=#ref1 title=The mode of action of lipid-soluble antioxidants in biological membranes.sup[1]/sup/a Even if using the JavaScript method, editing and truncating the reference will likely suit it better to its intended purpose. Rationale: - the first few words of the title are most likely to be read - the first few words differentiate one reference from another - (perhaps subject to content-field), the title of the work provides more *immediate* context - the title text is likely to be truncated - the author's name is often referenced inline, e.g. (Ernster L, Forsmark P Nordenbrand K, 1992) is an comparable conventional short-form reference. - if content deals with a specialised topic area, the author's name(s) are likely to be repeated and it won't be possible to distinguish between different works by the same author(s) -in general, web-writing prioritises content over authorship, for example, link text that describes the destination content tends to be more useful/usable than link text that identifies the destination content author. Additional considerations: - indicating to the reader (visually or otherwise) that the source anchor can provide an expanded reference (a link 'says', click-me rather than hover over me for a couple of seconds, then click me) -using an unmodified superscript element may make it difficult to hover or click the reference link (too small a target) Additional approaches to footnotes and endnotes: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www/fn.html Best regards, -- Andy Kirkwood | Creative Director Motive | web.design.integrity http://www.motive.co.nz ph: (04) 3 800 800 fx: (04) 970 9693 mob: 021 369 693 93 Rintoul St, Newtown PO Box 7150, Wellington South, New Zealand ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] css title styles
Hi Andy Thank you for your input. Unfortunately the exact wording of the content (in this client's case) is legally required, and so the possibility of editing it, or the references, in any way is out of the question. I like the idea of linking back to the content once the reader has read the relevant footnote, but there are many instances when more than one footnote is attributed to a portion of the content (see example below). Also, the same footnote reference is referred to in different portions of the content. I also agree that a link says click me rather than hover over me for a few seconds. I guess I might just need to retain the sup[1]/sup with either a link to the reference in the footer (and *no* corresponding return link), or *no* link at all. Below is an example where there are two references to a sentence: --- pThere may be up to a 40% decline in CoQ10 blood levels and this deficiency may lead to decline in ejection fraction and functional status. Deficiency can be prevented by co-administration of 100 mg/day of CoQ10 leading to enhanced benefit through reduced oxidation of LDL cholesterol. sup[8]/sup, sup[17]/sup/p --- Best regards Sarah -- XERT Communications email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] office: +61 2 4782 3104 mobile: 0438 017 416 http://www.xert.com.au/ web development : digital imaging : dvd production ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] css title styles
G'day I like the idea of linking back to the content once the reader has read the relevant footnote, but there are many instances when more than one footnote is attributed to a portion of the content (see example below). Also, the same footnote reference is referred to in different portions of the content. One option is to use some javascript to bring up a pop up message (hidden or dynamically built div, at the mouse location) that retrieves content from the relevant bookmark/footnote. I did something like this in 2002, although it was IE specific - using window.createPopup(). It doesn't work in other browsers (wasn't much of a consideration for me in 2002) but could probably be amended to work in other browsers. See http://www.klikbooks.com/Communication.html for an example. Look for a link with the text PECS and click on it. Perhaps a variation of this method (so you get a similar effect in other browsers) would be an option? Yes, I used a table for layout back in 2002. Regards -- Bert Doorn, Better Web Design http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/ Fast-loading, user-friendly websites ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] css title styles
Hi Sarah, Unfortunately the exact wording of the content (in this client's case) is legally required, and so the possibility of editing it, or the references, in any way is out of the question. Moving the title of the reference to the fore of the title attribute value wouldn't be changing the reference (as it is shown in the endnotes), but representing it in a medium-appropriate manner? If the title attribute is too long it will be truncated anyway. It could be perceived that there's a similar issue of changing the content when adding alt attributes or long descriptions to images, in-page anchors, etc. It may come down to the relationship with the client, but if the protocol you recommend for implementing references on the website is formalised, then perhaps using the title attribute would be seen as a adding-value-to rather than 'changing' the reference? The client's web style guide would then be updated to ensure a consistent approach is taken to marking-up future documents (and get the legal team back on board). You could illustrate the issue of medium-specificity with how a search engine results page may excerpt a portion of a document (without the complete reference text). I like the idea of linking back to the content once the reader has read the relevant footnote, but there are many instances when more than one footnote is attributed to a portion of the content (see example below). Also, the same footnote reference is referred to in different portions of the content. The example you've provide isn't too bad, you could create separate links for each reference marker (a[1]/aa[2]/a). What's more problematic is the second situation you've identified where a single reference is linked to *twice* within the same document, e.g. pThis paragraph is at the top of the document [1]/p p/p pThis one is further down the page, but also references the same document [1]/p (Clarifying for the benefit of the avid reader.) Making clear to the user which of the two reference markers the user would jump back to, would perhaps be more trouble than it's worth. Looks like linking the reference back to the reference mark could be out then. Although the one-way system might not be too bad--the reader can still get a quick sense from the title attribute as to what the reference is to, and then read the full reference by clicking the link. I'm not against the JavaScript Sweet Titles option posted, but agree with the spirit of the usability observation on the entry that an overly-long tooltip may 'feel' unwieldy or provide more detail than might be expected/required from a short reference. Let me know the path you end up taking. As usual, there's no 'silver bullet'... Best regards, -- Andy Kirkwood | Creative Director Motive | web.design.integrity http://www.motive.co.nz ph: (04) 3 800 800 fx: (04) 970 9693 mob: 021 369 693 93 Rintoul St, Newtown PO Box 7150, Wellington South, New Zealand ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] css title styles
I had created a pretty nifty library for displaying titles just not too long ago called Sweet Titles which had became quite a hit: http://www.dustindiaz.com/sweet-titles/ They were tested to work across IE6, Moz1.0+, Opera 7+, Safari 1.3 Hope this helps, Dustin On 11/4/05, Sarah Peeke (XERT) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all I am trying to find a web standards compliant way of styling a title for a description of references within an article. Eg: sup title=Ernster L, Forsmark P amp; Nordenbrand K. (1992) The mode of action of lipid-soluble antioxidants in biological membranes. Relationship between the effects of ubiquinol and vitamin E as inhibitors of lipid peroxidation in submitochondrial particles. J Nutr Vitaminol Spec No:548-517/sup If I use the above example the full reference is obviously truncated as title has a predetermined maximum width. I have found a css/javascript example: http://www.devarticles.com/c/a/JavaScript/Creating-popup-notes-with-CSS -and-JavaScript-Part-II/2/ but it doesn't appear to work on any mac browsers (I haven't tried windows). Does anyone have any other ideas/suggestions? Presently the site has a link to the bottom of the page which lists all the references, which is OK, except that the reader loses their place when they return to the article. Thanks in advance, Sarah -- XERT Communications email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] office: +61 2 4782 3104 mobile: 0438 017 416 http://www.xert.com.au/ web development : digital imaging : dvd production ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] css title styles
Dustin Thanks for your link - impressive titles! Just wondered, is it possible to have them degrade when javascript is disabled, so that at least in IE WIN (for eg) the user sees the normal title? At present, if I disable javascript in FF (mac) I don't get any titles at all. Regards Sarah -- XERT Communications email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] office: +61 2 4782 3104 mobile: 0438 017 416 http://www.xert.com.au/ web development : digital imaging : dvd production ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] css title styles
I honestly don't think this is the best solution for you, especially if you're doing academic papers. For two reasons: 1) because it's impossible to get titles to display in a normal browser without JavaScript, and; 2) if someone prints out your page they don't get any citations at all. Well, you CAN make it do that, but that either requires CSS IE doesn't support, or more JavaScript. IMO, the best way is to link to the footer and have a link back to an anchor from the footer, so: Some text I'm going to footnotea href=#fn1 id=fnbase1sup1/sup/a and then keep writing for a while. [...] ol li id=fn1Citation goes here. a href=#fnbase1uarr;/a/li /ol You could maybe hyperlink the entire citation, but that might cause problems if your citation is of a website. The obvious advantage of this is that it prints and requires no Javascript. hth, Josh On 11/5/05, Sarah Peeke (XERT) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dustin Thanks for your link - impressive titles! Just wondered, is it possible to have them degrade when javascript is disabled, so that at least in IE WIN (for eg) the user sees the normal title? At present, if I disable javascript in FF (mac) I don't get any titles at all. Regards Sarah -- XERT Communications email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] office: +61 2 4782 3104 mobile: 0438 017 416 http://www.xert.com.au/ web development : digital imaging : dvd production ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Joshua Street http://www.joahua.com/ +61 (0) 425 808 469 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] css title styles
Hi Josh Thanks very much for your reply. I should have mentioned that we will also be listing the entire references in the footer as well. I was just looking for a way to give the user immediate feedback about each reference, and thought the title may be useful. The problem with linking back and forth is that there are *so* many references on each page, sometimes two or three to each quote, so it gets a bit messy. Any other thoughts welcome. Sarah :) I honestly don't think this is the best solution for you, especially if you're doing academic papers. For two reasons: 1) because it's impossible to get titles to display in a normal browser without JavaScript, and; 2) if someone prints out your page they don't get any citations at all. Well, you CAN make it do that, but that either requires CSS IE doesn't support, or more JavaScript. IMO, the best way is to link to the footer and have a link back to an anchor from the footer, so: Some text I'm going to footnotea href=#fn1 id=fnbase1sup1/sup/a and then keep writing for a while. [...] ol li id=fn1Citation goes here. a href=#fnbase1uarr;/a/li /ol You could maybe hyperlink the entire citation, but that might cause problems if your citation is of a website. The obvious advantage of this is that it prints and requires no Javascript. hth, Josh -- XERT Communications email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] office: +61 2 4782 3104 mobile: 0438 017 416 http://www.xert.com.au/ web development : digital imaging : dvd production ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
