Re: [WSG] double space after period
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Russ, My thought exactly! Depending on the font, there are times when it is difficult to determine, at first glance, where sentences begin and end. By the way, I still use a double space at the end of a period as we were taught this in grammar and writing classes, not typing! ;-) Suzanne [EMAIL PROTECTED] Me too. For the very same reason. Shane Helm sonzeDesignStudio www.sonze.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] double space after period
Surely, the argument against the double space is only a short step away from it's logical extension: don't have paragraphs either, just have continuous text . . .? The logic behind both is surely the same? Bob McClelland, Cornwall (U.K.) www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk - Original Message - From: Shane Helm [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 4:22 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] double space after period [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Russ, My thought exactly! Depending on the font, there are times when it is difficult to determine, at first glance, where sentences begin and end. By the way, I still use a double space at the end of a period as we were taught this in grammar and writing classes, not typing! ;-) Suzanne [EMAIL PROTECTED] Me too. For the very same reason. Shane Helm sonzeDesignStudio www.sonze.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] double space after period
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:52:54 -, designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Surely, the argument against the double space is only a short step away from it's logical extension: don't have paragraphs either, just have continuous text . . .? The logic behind both is surely the same? No. The logic behind double-spacing after periods was that it was necessary in order to increase legibility during the age of the typewriter. And even during those days, professional typesetters did not use double spaces. Now that the typewriter has mostly gone the way of the dodo it's hard to make an argument for keeping the convention. Paragraphs, meanwhile, are a logical -- not a visual -- device. Just as a sentence is one or more self-contained thoughts, a paragraph is one or more related sentences. Often the first sentence of a paragraph introduces an idea, and the remaining sentences support or elaborate upon it. So it's hard to see an argument for doing away with paragraphs just because we don't double-space after periods any longer; the more logical extension of the argument presented here (as others have already pointed out) would be double-spacing *all* punctuation: colons, semicolons, commas, etc. Which makes no sense as it is completely at odds with existing conventions of English writing. And I stand by my original comment that CSS word-spacing or something like it would be the best practice for increasing space between sentences when necessary; inserting additional hard spaces (via nbsp; or similar) in the content is inflexible and mingles the presentation into the content, while keeping the spacing adjustment in the CSS allows the presentation to be tailored to different classes of users as necessary. Which is really the main accessibility benefit of CSS, as I understand it. -- May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house. -- George Carlin ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] double space after period
Because there's such a mix of opinions about the value of double-spacing between sentences and its history, I asked my friend John D. Berry, typographer book designer of note, to give me the low-down on double-spacing to post to this list. __ At 01:50 PM 2/10/2005, John D. Berry wrote: Paul -- Double-spacing after periods is a habit that began in the 19th century -- not a period noted for its fine typography! -- and has no justification whatsoever. I don't need to expound on the subject, however; it's already been done succinctly by Robert Bringhurst in The Elements of Typographic Style (2nd ed, pp 2830): 2.1.4 Use a single word space between sentences. In the nineteenth century, which was a dark and inflationary age in typography and type design, many compositors were encouraged to stuff extra space between sentences. Generations of twentieth-century typists were then taught to do the same, by hitting the spacebar twice after every period. Your typing as well as your typesetting will benefit from unlearning this quaint Victorian habit. As a general rule, no more than a single space is required after a period, a colon or any other mark of punctuation. Larger spaces (e.g., en spaces) are themselves punctuation. Being a poet and a scholar, Bringhurst goes on to mention one exception (probably not one that your discussion of text on the web is going to run into very often): The rule is usually altered, however, when setting classical Latin and Greek, romanized Sanskrit, phonetics or other kinds of texts in which sentences begin with lowercase letters. In the absence of a capital, a full en space (M/2) between sentences will generally be welcome. How you accomplish this in justified text, since the en space is a fixed space, is a job for a careful typesetter. In a more general way, and for composition in metal type, Jan Tschichold set very high standards when he took over the re-design of Penguin Books in the late 1940s; he was sending jobs to virtually every typesetter and printer in Britain, and had to standardize the results that would come back. The very first section of his Penguin Composition Rules is titled Text Composition (1947) [with my notes in brackets]: All text composition should be as closely word-spaced as possible. As a rule, the spacing should be about a middle space or the thickness of an 'i' in the type size used. [This would be the width of the piece of type, including the built-in space around it, not just the visual width of the i itself.] Wide spaces should be strictly avoided. Words may be freely broken whenever necessary to avoid wide spacing, as breaking words is less harmful to the appearance of the page than too much space between words. [I usually add: try to avoid misleading word breaks, such as rein-state, which can lead the reader to misread the sentence the first time through.] All major punctuation marks full point, colon, and semicolon should be followed by the same spacing as is used throughout the rest of the line. It's worth noting that Tschichold also set a standard of adding a small space before colons, semicolons, question marks, and exclamation points -- not a full word space, but a slight additional space, so the punctuation doesn't get subsumed into the word shape. I try to do this when I typeset text, and I wish more digital fonts were designed with extra sidebars around (or at least before) those punctuation marks. Obviously this extra space isn't needed before periods or commas, but I often run into automatic kerning pairs that would tuck the period or comma way too far under the overhanging part of a final letter like r or y. Our mania for kerning sometimes creates more visual problems than it solves. In all of these areas, the precise spacing needed to get the most readable text depends on the typeface used, of course. The spacing of the letters affects the spacing of the words affects the spacing of the lines, and so on all the way out to the margins of the page and back again. Typography is all about space. And now we'll see whether the fact that I've used italics and en dashes for clarity in this text rather than the truncated plain text that I usually limit myself to in e-mail breaks the system or not. I hope not. John :: :: :: John D. Berry book design typography: http://home.earthlink.net/~typographer/http://home.earthlink.net/~typographer/ dot-font: http://www.creativepro.com/author/home/951.htmlhttp://www.creativepro.com/author/home/951.html Contemporary Newspaper Design: http://www.markbattypublisher.com/servlet/book_view?number=17http://www.markbattypublisher.com/servlet/book_view?number=17 Language Culture Type: http://www.atypi.org/10_Visitors/70_publications/50_LCT/http://www.atypi.org/10_Visitors/70_publications/50_LCT/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See
Re: [WSG] double space after period
great comments thus far, but i think we're getting into the area where things are being said twice or getting into wy too fine a point. when exactly does this thread get closed? r - Original Message - From: Paul Novitski [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 10:40 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] double space after period Because there's such a mix of opinions about the value of double-spacing between sentences and its history, I asked my friend John D. Berry, typographer book designer of note, to give me the low-down on double-spacing to post to this list. __ At 01:50 PM 2/10/2005, John D. Berry wrote: Paul -- Double-spacing after periods is a habit that began in the 19th century -- not a period noted for its fine typography! -- and has no justification whatsoever. I don't need to expound on the subject, however; it's already been done succinctly by Robert Bringhurst in The Elements of Typographic Style (2nd ed, pp 28-30): 2.1.4 Use a single word space between sentences. In the nineteenth century, which was a dark and inflationary age in typography and type design, many compositors were encouraged to stuff extra space between sentences. Generations of twentieth-century typists were then taught to do the same, by hitting the spacebar twice after every period. Your typing as well as your typesetting will benefit from unlearning this quaint Victorian habit. As a general rule, no more than a single space is required after a period, a colon or any other mark of punctuation. Larger spaces (e.g., en spaces) are themselves punctuation. Being a poet and a scholar, Bringhurst goes on to mention one exception (probably not one that your discussion of text on the web is going to run into very often): The rule is usually altered, however, when setting classical Latin and Greek, romanized Sanskrit, phonetics or other kinds of texts in which sentences begin with lowercase letters. In the absence of a capital, a full en space (M/2) between sentences will generally be welcome. How you accomplish this in justified text, since the en space is a fixed space, is a job for a careful typesetter. In a more general way, and for composition in metal type, Jan Tschichold set very high standards when he took over the re-design of Penguin Books in the late 1940s; he was sending jobs to virtually every typesetter and printer in Britain, and had to standardize the results that would come back. The very first section of his Penguin Composition Rules is titled Text Composition (1947) [with my notes in brackets]: All text composition should be as closely word-spaced as possible. As a rule, the spacing should be about a middle space or the thickness of an 'i' in the type size used. [This would be the width of the piece of type, including the built-in space around it, not just the visual width of the i itself.] Wide spaces should be strictly avoided. Words may be freely broken whenever necessary to avoid wide spacing, as breaking words is less harmful to the appearance of the page than too much space between words. [I usually add: try to avoid misleading word breaks, such as rein-state, which can lead the reader to misread the sentence the first time through.] All major punctuation marks - full point, colon, and semicolon - should be followed by the same spacing as is used throughout the rest of the line. It's worth noting that Tschichold also set a standard of adding a small space before colons, semicolons, question marks, and exclamation points -- not a full word space, but a slight additional space, so the punctuation doesn't get subsumed into the word shape. I try to do this when I typeset text, and I wish more digital fonts were designed with extra sidebars around (or at least before) those punctuation marks. Obviously this extra space isn't needed before periods or commas, but I often run into automatic kerning pairs that would tuck the period or comma way too far under the overhanging part of a final letter like r or y. Our mania for kerning sometimes creates more visual problems than it solves. In all of these areas, the precise spacing needed to get the most readable text depends on the typeface used, of course. The spacing of the letters affects the spacing of the words affects the spacing of the lines, and so on all the way out to the margins of the page - and back again. Typography is all about space. And now we'll see whether the fact that I've used italics and en dashes for clarity in this text - rather than the truncated plain text that I usually limit myself to in e-mail - breaks the system or not. I hope not. John :: :: :: John D. Berry book design typography: http://home.earthlink.net/~typographer/http://home.earthlink.net/~typograp her/ dot-font: http://www.creativepro.com/author/home/951.htmlhttp://www.creativepro.com/ author/home/951.html Contemporary Newspaper Design: http://www.markbattypublisher.com/servlet
Re: [WSG] double space after period - ADMIN THREAD CLOSED
THREAD CLOSED Thanks, Paul, for the very detailed information. However, as Richard has said, all opinions will have now been covered. The thread has run a very long and winding course. So, no more on this thread please! Thanks Russ great comments thus far, but i think we're getting into the area where things are being said twice or getting into wy too fine a point. when exactly does this thread get closed? r ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] double space after period
Paul Novitski wrote: Because there's such a mix of opinions about the value of double-spacing between sentences and its history, I asked my friend John D. Berry, typographer book designer of note, to give me the low-down on double-spacing to post to this list. __ At 01:50 PM 2/10/2005, John D. Berry wrote: As a general rule, no more than a single space is required after a period, a colon or any other mark of punctuation. Larger spaces (e.g., en spaces) are themselves punctuation. If we combine the comments by John D. Berry (which are in relation to printed media) with the previously mentioned idea that a double-space after a sentence might increase the legibility of text for dislexic users we could now start a whole new discussion: Are printed books accessible? Ooooh, this is going OT though. We need a whole new newsgroup: mediastandardsgroup.org ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] double space after period
john wrote: Forgive me if this doesn't specifically relate to standards, but perhaps it does. I'm simply wondering about the grammatically-correct double space after a period. For years, it's never mattered to me, but I have a client who is a stickler for this sort of thing, and he asked if I could please add the extra spaces in his site. What do you think? First of all, can this be done in CSS? Secondly, is this even proper with (X)HTML documents? Thanks. As everyone has said, the convention has been dropped. Should it have been? As Terrence Wood said, Apparently the convention comes about because it makes it easier to distinguish the end of a sentence, both from the preceding sentence and from mid-sentence abbreviations terminated with a period when using a typewriter. Something which no one has mentioned is the possible accessibility benefits of the extra spacing following the period. My thoughts are that the extra spacing will more easily distinguish the sentence for all, but particularly those with cognitive disabilities I understand we're no longer using mono-spaced fonts (except when by choice) but perhaps that modern font kerning is not enough for some people with some issues Unfortunately, I can't find any data to back me up on this. I know one person with extreme dyslexia who curses the day that folks turned their backs on the double-spacing. He says it slows him down dramatically The only articles I could find on this are old, but I've included them for reference: http://www.evolt.org/article/Two_Spaces_After_a_Period_Isn_t_Dead_Yet/25/213/ http://www.webword.com/reports/period.html Anyone have on thoughts on the accessibility of this issue? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] double space after period
Something which no one has mentioned is the possible accessibility benefits of the extra spacing following the period. My thoughts are that the extra spacing will more easily distinguish the sentence for all, but particularly those with cognitive disabilities Unfortunately, I can't find any data to back me up on this. I know one person with extreme dyslexia who curses the day that folks turned their backs on the double-spacing. He says it slows him down dramatically Anyone have on thoughts on the accessibility of this issue? Theoretically, the extra space could help users with cognitive impairment and learning difficulties recognise the end of a sentence more easily, which would be beneficial. The problems would be 1) testing this theory and 2) if it was found to be of benefit to specific groups of users, and you thought it was important on a particular site, how to achieve it without polluting to code/content. On a small site you could imagine simple global replacement of content, but the maintenance would become a pain. On a dynamic site it would be an even bigger issue. I haven't had a chance to read it fully, but there is a very detailed article on dyslexia here: http://old.techdis.ac.uk/seven/papers/dyslexia.html Russ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] double space after period
Lachlan Hardy mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 1:34 PM said: john wrote: Forgive me if this doesn't specifically relate to standards, but perhaps it does. I'm simply wondering about the grammatically-correct double space after a period. For years, it's never mattered to me, but I have a client who is a stickler for this sort of thing, and he asked if I could please add the extra spaces in his site. What do you think? First of all, can this be done in CSS? Secondly, is this even proper with (X)HTML documents? I think it's lame. From my understanding the usage of two spaces after a period was because of early typewriters that had very small spaces (the same could be said for certain fonts). Therefore two spaces were placed side-by-side to increase the distance between the period and the beginning of the next sentence. This whole thing is one of my pet peeves so take my harsh criticism of it with a grain of salt please. :) Chris. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] double space after period
This whole thing is one of my pet peeves so take my harsh criticism of it with a grain of salt please. :) I agree wholeheartedly, one of my pet peeves as well, especially after battling it through the early days of desktop publishing in the 80s. This isn't a matter of grammar or standards, it's a matter of correct use of punctuation. With the thought process that's being put forth here, would you also put double spaces before and after an em dash? What about commas, quote marks, and all other forms of punctuation? Why not just put spaces between each and every letter as well? I'm sorry, it is incorrect and no amount of accessibility will ever make me change my mind. I too dislike being harsh, but I thought this was a dead issue somewhere around the late 80s... Wayne -- Wayne Godfrey President, Creative Director Outgate Media, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] double space after period
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 08:33:41 +1100, Lachlan Hardy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Something which no one has mentioned is the possible accessibility benefits of the extra spacing following the period. My thoughts are that the extra spacing will more easily distinguish the sentence for all, but particularly those with cognitive disabilities I'd think that the CSS 'word-spacing' and/or 'letter-spacing' properties, not additional hard spaces in the content, would be the right way to adjust spacing for better legibility. -- May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house. -- George Carlin ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] double space after period
I agree wholeheartedly, one of my pet peeves as well, especially after battling it through the early days of desktop publishing in the 80s. This isn't a matter of grammar or standards, it's a matter of correct use of punctuation. James, I think you and Chris are missing Lachlan's point. Other posts in this thread have covered the double spaces are not relevant now argument, and that they are not official part of punctuation. Those are separate issues that almost everyone has agreed with so far. Lachlan's point was specifically about making content more readable for specific groups of users. If this technique was found to be valuable for some groups, such as those who experience reading difficulties, then it could be useful on certain sites. It could be set up in such a way that it did not interfere with users who did not wish this function. The site could have a customisation tool that included an easy read option - which added space around content and an extra space after sentences. So, in this case, it has nothing to do with grammar, it is about accessibility. Russ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] double space after period
Hi guys,
Here's a little script that might help this issue.
It takes the element with the id of content and adds an extra white space
at the end of a sentence to the existing one.
This way, the code is still clean and you can have your whitespace cake and
eat it too! :o)
function addSpace() {
var string = document.getElementById(content);
var swapWhat = /\u002E\s/g;
newString = string.innerHTML.replace(swapWhat, \u002E\u00A0\u00A0);
string.innerHTML = newString;
}
window.onload = addSpace;
Hope this helps,
Richard :o)
- Original Message -
Theoretically, the extra space could help users with cognitive impairment.
The problems would be 1) testing this theory and 2) if
it was found to be of benefit to specific groups of users, and you thought
it was important on a particular site, how to achieve it without polluting
to code/content.
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] double space after period
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 08:33:41 +1100, Lachlan Hardy wrote: As everyone has said, the convention has been dropped. Should it have been? To be honest, I still type that way, and think it adds to the readability of text. But. We can't produce it in HTML, so I'm not sure that there is any point to discussing it. :( Lea ~ not an admin thread-close, just an opinion ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] double space after period
At 01:33 PM 2/9/2005, Lachlan Hardy wrote:
Something which no one has mentioned is the possible accessibility
benefits of the extra spacing following the period. My thoughts are that
the extra spacing will more easily distinguish the sentence for all, but
particularly those with cognitive disabilities
Lachlan,
One argument for NOT separating sentences not mentioned by any of our
esteemed colleagues thus far is that it would remove the delightful
ambiguity from such commonplace prose as:
D. Hodges gave her address
as 123 Willow Ln. N. Henderson
recoiled in shock.
It would be a drab, gray world if we always knew for sure where the next
sentence began.
To play devil's advocate, extra horizontal space between sentences is only
one way in which one could style prose to be easier to read; I think you're
mentioning double-spacing only because it happens to have been used in the
past, in dem olden days when keyboards still delivered a punch. I imagine
you could come up with a variety of ways to clarify the separation of
sentences and other structures in blocks of prose -- you could insert a
graphic symbol between sentences more unique and obvious than the dot on
the baseline that we use now, separate sentences with line breaks white
space similar to paragraphing, change color or other font attributes from
one sentence to the next, highlight various parts of speech, etc.
Before I get grumped upon let me say that I'm not recommending that anyone
actually do this, I'm merely addressing the question of how.
Whatever cosmetic solutions you chose to use, you could put hooks into your
markup to make them possible. For example you could mark up the spaces
between sentences:
pThe mouse ran over the cat.span class=gap /spanHaving
fled the scene, the mouse was later charged with hit and run and scampering
under the influence of Brie./p
...or you could mark the sentences themselves:
pspan class=sentenceThe mouse ran over the cat./span span
class=sentenceHaving fled the scene, the mouse was later charged with
hit and run and scampering under the influence of Brie./span/p
The two approaches suggest different sets of styling possibilities. Either
one would make for fat markup, but at least you could style it differently
(including not at all) for different audiences.
Getting back to the specific question of double-spacing, it seems to me
that the best way to do this (were one ever to be so silly!) would be to
increase word-spacing for the inter-sentence spaces:
pRah rah rah.span class=gap /spanSis boom bah./p
span.gap {word-spacing: 1em;}
Without taking the time to test this, my guess is that it would not
interfere with line-wrap in the user agent, even in justified text. Other
approaches that come to mind, e.g. adding extra right-padding to the end of
each sentence, would undoubtedly cause layout problems.
Paul
**
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See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
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Re: [WSG] double space after period
At 03:31 PM 2/9/2005, Richard Czeiger wrote: Here's a little script that might help this issue. It takes the element with the id of content and adds an extra white space at the end of a sentence to the existing one. This way, the code is still clean and you can have your whitespace cake and eat it too! :o) Richard, I see the problem as not so much where the periods are, but where the sentences begin in prose dotted with abbreviations, n'est ce pas? Your script commits the double misdemeanor of assuming that every period ends a sentence and forgetting about all that other punctuation that so often -- but not always! -- ends a sentence. Paul ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] double space after period
Lachlan Hardy wrote: Something which no one has mentioned is the possible accessibility benefits of the extra spacing following the period. My thoughts are that the extra spacing will more easily distinguish the sentence for all, but particularly those with cognitive disabilities Interesting line of thought, and possibly quite right for a certain type of cognitive disability. However, it could also have the opposite effect of reducing accessibility for users with dyslexia (and the problem of rivers of white caused by too much - irregular - spacing) -- Patrick H. Lauke _ redux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] double space after period
How about this
One flew over the cuckoos nest should be on the top of everyone's list
of kid's books.br / In fact, it is
even more important than Joe Joe the Big ol' cornflake. br /
style sheet
br {display:inline; width:2em;}
I don't even know what this would work like, just throwing it out. It
would be easier to code and degrade better.
-Original Message-
From: Paul Novitski [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 3:48 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] double space after period
At 01:33 PM 2/9/2005, Lachlan Hardy wrote:
Something which no one has mentioned is the possible accessibility
benefits of the extra spacing following the period. My thoughts are
that
the extra spacing will more easily distinguish the sentence for all,
but
particularly those with cognitive disabilities
Lachlan,
One argument for NOT separating sentences not mentioned by any of our
esteemed colleagues thus far is that it would remove the delightful
ambiguity from such commonplace prose as:
D. Hodges gave her address
as 123 Willow Ln. N. Henderson
recoiled in shock.
It would be a drab, gray world if we always knew for sure where the next
sentence began.
To play devil's advocate, extra horizontal space between sentences is
only
one way in which one could style prose to be easier to read; I think
you're
mentioning double-spacing only because it happens to have been used in
the
past, in dem olden days when keyboards still delivered a punch. I
imagine
you could come up with a variety of ways to clarify the separation of
sentences and other structures in blocks of prose -- you could insert a
graphic symbol between sentences more unique and obvious than the dot on
the baseline that we use now, separate sentences with line breaks
white
space similar to paragraphing, change color or other font attributes
from
one sentence to the next, highlight various parts of speech, etc.
Before I get grumped upon let me say that I'm not recommending that
anyone
actually do this, I'm merely addressing the question of how.
Whatever cosmetic solutions you chose to use, you could put hooks into
your
markup to make them possible. For example you could mark up the spaces
between sentences:
pThe mouse ran over the cat.span class=gap /spanHaving
fled the scene, the mouse was later charged with hit and run and
scampering
under the influence of Brie./p
...or you could mark the sentences themselves:
pspan class=sentenceThe mouse ran over the cat./span
span
class=sentenceHaving fled the scene, the mouse was later charged with
hit and run and scampering under the influence of Brie./span/p
The two approaches suggest different sets of styling possibilities.
Either
one would make for fat markup, but at least you could style it
differently
(including not at all) for different audiences.
Getting back to the specific question of double-spacing, it seems to me
that the best way to do this (were one ever to be so silly!) would be to
increase word-spacing for the inter-sentence spaces:
pRah rah rah.span class=gap /spanSis boom bah./p
span.gap {word-spacing: 1em;}
Without taking the time to test this, my guess is that it would not
interfere with line-wrap in the user agent, even in justified text.
Other
approaches that come to mind, e.g. adding extra right-padding to the end
of
each sentence, would undoubtedly cause layout problems.
Paul
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] double space after period
Ted Drake wrote:
How about this
One flew over the cuckoos nest should be on the top of everyone's list
of kid's books.br / In fact, it is
even more important than Joe Joe the Big ol' cornflake. br /
style sheet
br {display:inline; width:2em;}
I don't even know what this would work like, just throwing it out. It
would be easier to code and degrade better.
Degrade better? Maybe i'm being ultra-picky, but having a large space
when styled and a line break when not styled does not sound like an
equivalent alternative to me.
--
Patrick H. Lauke
_
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[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
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RE: [WSG] double space after period
I must have been in a poetic mood and thought about the lines dropping down, I didn't think about the extra space. I need some coffee. Thanks for pointing it out Patrick. -Original Message- I don't even know what this would work like, just throwing it out. It would be easier to code and degrade better. Degrade better? Maybe i'm being ultra-picky, but having a large space when styled and a line break when not styled does not sound like an equivalent alternative to me. -- Patrick H. Lauke _ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] double space after period
Wayne Godfrey wrote: This isn't a matter of grammar or standards, it's a matter of correct use of punctuation. With the thought process that's being put forth here, would you also put double spaces before and after an em dash? What about commas, quote marks, and all other forms of punctuation? Why not just put spaces between each and every letter as well? I'm sorry, it is incorrect and no amount of accessibility will ever make me change my mind. My thought process referred to more easily identifying a sentence as a discrete unit. Therefore, no, I wouldn't agree with any of your other (presumably sarcastic) suggestions. As Russ said, I'm not interested in the grammar - indeed, I agree that double-spacing is to be considered grammatically incorrect - I am interested in whether there is potential for increasing the accessibility of large bodies of text Patrick H. Lauke wrote: However, it could also have the opposite effect of reducing accessibility for users with dyslexia (and the problem of rivers of white caused by too much - irregular - spacing) As I indicated, my only example of distinct benefit from this process is from an extreme dyslexic. He finds that the assistance of additional spacing after a full stop (period) is invaluable to increasing his reading speed and comprehension. Whether that holds true for other dyslexics is something I'd like to discover, so if anyone can find any stats... Of course, as usual with accessibility - particularly web accessibility, statistics are extremely hard to find. I have none. Neither of my local accessibility experts know of any (although they both agree with me in theory) As for possible implementations, what we need is someway of defining sentences (possibly a crazy Inman/Adams-style regex?) and then word-spacing would probably fix it. Richard's JS would work fine with an excellent regex Cheers, Lachlan PS First time I've posted to the list in ages and look what happens! ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] double space after period
At 04:19 PM 2/9/2005, Ted Drake wrote:
How about this
One flew over the cuckoos nest should be on the top of everyone's list
of kid's books.br / In fact, it is
even more important than Joe Joe the Big ol' cornflake. br /
style sheet
br {display:inline; width:2em;}
Ted,
This doesn't work, at least not in Firefox -- the br / tags still cause
line-breaks even when declared as inline.
My earlier suggestion of:
Sentence.span /spanNext sentence.
span { word-spacing: 1em; }
doesn't work perfectly, either. It appears to work fine in ragged-right
text, but when the text is justified, each span clearly takes up a few
pixels of width when it comes at the end of a line. Oh, well!
Paul
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Re: [WSG] double space after period
too true paul forgot about those nasty little buggers :o) oh well R :o) - Original Message - From: Paul Novitski [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 10:55 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] double space after period At 03:31 PM 2/9/2005, Richard Czeiger wrote: Here's a little script that might help this issue. It takes the element with the id of content and adds an extra white space at the end of a sentence to the existing one. This way, the code is still clean and you can have your whitespace cake and eat it too! :o) Richard, I see the problem as not so much where the periods are, but where the sentences begin in prose dotted with abbreviations, n'est ce pas? Your script commits the double misdemeanor of assuming that every period ends a sentence and forgetting about all that other punctuation that so often -- but not always! -- ends a sentence. Paul ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] double space after period
Apologies for being so late on this (been rather busy at work). The double-space after a full-stop (period) thing is simply a notational convention that sprang out of the typing pools of the 1950s. It has nothing to do at all with grammar, and is in fact actively discouraged as practise in the modern age. Many old school secretaries who may have come through 'secretarial school' swear by it, but it's a very out-of-date practise confined to old school corporate documents. Anyone insisting on it now as 'grammatically correct' simply doesn't know what they're talking about. Cheers, Kevin Futter On 23/1/05 10:23 PM, Iain Gardiner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It certainly has nothing to do with grammar, it's more a presentation convention that has evolved with type. As for a solution, maybe the CSS property 'white-space: pre' would work? Iain -- Iain Gardiner http://www.firelightning.com -- Kevin Futter Webmaster, St. Bernard's College http://www.sbc.melb.catholic.edu.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] double space after period
-Original Message- From: john [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, 23 January 2005 9:31 PM To: web standards group Subject: [WSG] double space after period Forgive me if this doesn't specifically relate to standards, but perhaps it does. I'm simply wondering about the grammatically-correct double space after a period. I never heard of a double-space being gramatically correct. Then again, perhaps in other countries it is? Which would cause a problem, I guess. I couldn't think of any way to do it in css. The only way would be nbsp;nbsp; , but that's fairly annoying. Interesting problem. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] double space after period
It certainly has nothing to do with grammar, it's more a presentation convention that has evolved with type. As for a solution, maybe the CSS property 'white-space: pre' would work? Iain -- Iain Gardiner http://www.firelightning.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] Sent: 23 January 2005 10:57 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] double space after period -Original Message- From: john [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, 23 January 2005 9:31 PM To: web standards group Subject: [WSG] double space after period Forgive me if this doesn't specifically relate to standards, but perhaps it does. I'm simply wondering about the grammatically-correct double space after a period. I never heard of a double-space being gramatically correct. Then again, perhaps in other countries it is? Which would cause a problem, I guess. I couldn't think of any way to do it in css. The only way would be nbsp;nbsp; , but that's fairly annoying. Interesting problem. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] double space after period
Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] wrote: I couldn't think of any way to do it in css. The only way would be nbsp;nbsp; , but that's fairly annoying. AFAIK, the all the non-markup specific entities (ie: the ones that aren't: quot;, amp;, lt;, gt;) have been depreciated, if not removed, from XHTML2.0 since being based on XML means Unicode should be used. ...Including the nbsp; I'm guessing that XHTML2.0/XML will respect multiple whitespace when within an inline container or paragraph, sowould be valid. But grammatically it isn't in British English or American English. MS Word does support two spaces after periods, so I'm guessing that some obscure country uses this system. I do have a relevant question relating to this problem: Is there any advantage in word-wrapping markup'd paragraphs? -- -David R ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] double space after period
- Original Message - From: Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: john [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, 23 January 2005 9:31 PM To: web standards group Subject: [WSG] double space after period Forgive me if this doesn't specifically relate to standards, but perhaps it does. I'm simply wondering about the grammatically-correct double space after a period. I never heard of a double-space being gramatically correct. Then again, perhaps in other countries it is? Which would cause a problem, I guess. I couldn't think of any way to do it in css. The only way would be nbsp;nbsp; , but that's fairly annoying. Interesting problem. I had this problem only last week - and couldn't solve it. Certainly here in UK it is (was) usual to put a double space after a period. It keeps the sentences apart. However, like a lot of things, it's now being (been) dropped. Only antiquated diehards (like me) want to keep it! :-) The problem is two-fold: 1) how to do it in the first place, and 2) how to allow for resizing with fluid layouts. I tried using nbsp;nbsp; but in one case/one size the double-space moved to the beginning of the line and looked quite awful - so that's out! Tricky . . . Bob McClelland, Cornwall (U.K.) www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] double space after period
A double space after a period has nothing to do with grammar AFAIK, it is a convention that comes from typewriter (and fixed width font) days. Apparently the convention comes about because it makes it easier to distinguish the end of a sentence, both from the preceding sentence and from mid-sentence abbreviations terminated with a period when using a typewriter. Current teaching does not require two spaces after a sentence, and you really shouldn't use a double space when using proportional fonts. Rendering a double space after a period requires an entity (nbsp;) to display properly... a pretty hefty price code-wise. Terrence Wood. john wrote: I'm simply wondering about the grammatically-correct double space after a period. For years, it's never mattered to me, but I have a client who is a stickler for this sort of thing, and he asked if I could please add the extra spaces in his site. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] double space after period
On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 10:30:51 +, john [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Forgive me if this doesn't specifically relate to standards, but perhaps it does. I'd file it under best practices myself. I'm simply wondering about the grammatically-correct double space after a period. For years, it's never mattered to me, but I have a client who is a stickler for this sort of thing, and he asked if I could please add the extra spaces in his site. It's got absolutely nothing to do with grammar; as a couple other people have pointed out, it was a convention (and by no means a universal one) in the days of manual typesetting and is now quite outdated, yet for some reason primary-school teachers the world over continue to enforce it with maniacal intensity. See the following typophile.com thread for some lively discussion of the history of the convention and the many different ways in which it was (and wasn't) implemented: http://www.typophile.com/forums/messages/30/27993.html?1078892522 If your client continues to insist on double spaces, I'd recommend quoting liberally from that discussion, as perhaps the opinions of professional typographers and typesetters will carry some weight. What do you think? First of all, can this be done in CSS? Secondly, is this even proper with (X)HTML documents? You could play with 'whitespace', maybe, but it wouldn't be worth it. -- May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house. -- George Carlin ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Advantage of word-wrapping? (was: Re: [WSG] double space after period)
David R wrote:
I do have a relevant question relating to this problem: Is there any
advantage in word-wrapping markup'd paragraphs?
The most important situation in which word-wrapping is useful is with
justified text. Good word-wrapping prevents awkward word spacing in such
text, rendering it more legible.
There are a few pittfalls though, with word-wrapping: it is language
dependent and browsers are basically morons with regard to text-handling
in general and word-wrapping in particular.
The only element I know to provide predictable word-wrapping is [wbr],
but this is a non-XHTML element, thus needing a modified DTD which
includes this element. And then again: [wbr] doesn't add a hyphen when a
word is actually wrapped, so it is mainly useful in wrapping URL's and
the like. The soft-hyphen (shy;) is sometimes used for wrapping
purposes, but it was never intended for such use and produces
unpredictable results across browsers.
Word-wrapping will only become a viable online typesetting option when
browsers are capable of tapping into an OS provided spelling/wrapping/
grammar system. In such a situation, I can imagine a browser actually
picking up [lang=] attributes in mark-up to switch between wrapping
rules and authors only needing to specify 'on' or 'off' for
word-wrapping, e.g. through: p { word-wrap: (auto|no-wrap); }.
Until then, I just don't use any justified texts online. ;-)
Jeroen
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Re: [WSG] double space after period
How about using en/em-space instead of regular space? http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/chars/spaces.html -- regards, Kornel Lesiski ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] double space after period
I'm simply wondering about the grammatically-correct double space after a period. For years, it's never mattered to me, but I have a client who is a stickler for this sort of thing, and he asked if I could please add the extra spaces in his site. It may or may not be grammatically correct, depending on your semantics, but it is pure and simply wrong. Is your client writing a term paper on a typewriter or publishing a web site, book or magazine? The double space issue is and should be a dead one. This issue plagued the desktop world many moons ago. I know, I've been doing magazines and books for over thirty years. These days no managing- or copy-editor worth their salt would ever allow such spacing. It is incorrect and should be treated that way. Look at any book, magazine or published piece, there are no double spaced periods, period. An old world thought that refuse to die... w -- Wayne Godfrey President, Creative Director Outgate Media, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] double space after period
Thank you for all your replies to this. My client has a PhD in Linguistics, and asked that I do this. I have since emailed him, citing many of your emails, and he changed his mind. Thanks again! ~john _ Dr. Zeus Web Development http://www.DrZeus.net content without clutter on 1/23/2005 8:00 PM Wayne Godfrey said the following: I'm simply wondering about the grammatically-correct double space after a period. For years, it's never mattered to me, but I have a client who is a stickler for this sort of thing, and he asked if I could please add the extra spaces in his site. It may or may not be grammatically correct, depending on your semantics, but it is pure and simply wrong. Is your client writing a term paper on a typewriter or publishing a web site, book or magazine? The double space issue is and should be a dead one. This issue plagued the desktop world many moons ago. I know, I've been doing magazines and books for over thirty years. These days no managing- or copy-editor worth their salt would ever allow such spacing. It is incorrect and should be treated that way. Look at any book, magazine or published piece, there are no double spaced periods, period. An old world thought that refuse to die... w -- Wayne Godfrey President, Creative Director Outgate Media, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
