Re: [wsjt-devel] A strange signal seen on the air

[David Fisher]

Yes, you can overdrive the audio level easily and create noise, but you can 
also monitor the drive level just as easily and set it to any value up to max, 
without overdriving.  At max power on my 6600, using just the transceiver PA 
and no amp, I can generate a 90 watt signal at a point just short of clipping.  
Since WSJT-X produces a uniform level signal, and since I run the 6600 at max 
power when transmitting, all I have to do to adjust the signal power is adjust 
the gain control in the digital TX channel.  In my case, full power is achieved 
at a gain setting of about “34”.  Typical settings are in the teens.

Dave / NX6D



From: Black Michael via wsjt-devel 
Sent: Thursday, August 2, 2018 6:00:46 AM
To: WSJT software development
Cc: Black Michael
Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] A strange signal seen on the air

Maybe you're not aware...but I am having helped at least one Flex user who was 
generating noise.  You can still trigger the ALC on a Flex radio (or any other 
SDR) with too much audio for the power setting.

de Mike W9MDB






On Thursday, August 2, 2018, 2:27:04 AM CDT, David Fisher 
 wrote:



Flex radio users routinely do not use “Fake It” mode, as the TX audio signal 
never exists in analog form from the point where it created by WSJT-X until the 
RF signal is synthesized.  I’m not aware of any cases of audio harmonics 
appearing in Flex generated FT8/JT65/JT9 signals.  I run with a 4K wide RX and 
TX passband in DIGU mode, which bypasses all audio signal processing.



Dave / NX6D






From: Carey Fisher 
Sent: Wednesday, August 1, 2018 8:29:05 PM
To: WSJT software development
Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] A strange signal seen on the air

Well, duh...

On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 7:45 PM, G8DQX (WSJT developers on SF) 
mailto:wsjtde...@gape.me.uk>> wrote:

When the TX is not employing CAT control of frequency, for starters.

Robin

On 01/08/18 18:55, Carey Fisher wrote:
Name 1.

On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 1:35 PM, Black Michael via wsjt-devel 
mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>> 
wrote:
Because there are too many situations where it doesn't work.

de Mike W9MDB


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Re: [wsjt-devel] A strange signal seen on the air

[Black Michael via wsjt-devel]

Maybe you're not aware...but I am having helped at least one Flex user who was 
generating noise.  You can still trigger the ALC on a Flex radio (or any other 
SDR) with too much audio for the power setting.

de Mike W9MDB




 

On Thursday, August 2, 2018, 2:27:04 AM CDT, David Fisher 
 wrote:  
 
 
Flex radio users routinely do not use “Fake It” mode, as the TX audio signal 
never exists in analog form from the point where it created by WSJT-X until the 
RF signal is synthesized.  I’m not aware of any cases of audio harmonics 
appearing in Flex generated FT8/JT65/JT9 signals.  I run with a 4K wide RX and 
TX passband in DIGU mode, which bypasses all audio signal processing.

  
 
Dave / NX6D

  
 
  
 From: Carey Fisher 
Sent: Wednesday, August 1, 2018 8:29:05 PM
To: WSJT software development
Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] A strange signal seen on the air Well, duh...
On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 7:45 PM, G8DQX (WSJT developers on 
SF) wrote:


When the TX is not employing CAT control of frequency, for starters.

Robin


On 01/08/18 18:55, Carey Fisher wrote:

Name 1.
On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 1:35 PM, Black Michael via 
wsjt-devel wrote:

Because there are too many situations where it doesn't work.
de Mike W9MDB



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Re: [wsjt-devel] A strange signal seen on the air

[David Fisher]

Flex radio users routinely do not use “Fake It” mode, as the TX audio signal 
never exists in analog form from the point where it created by WSJT-X until the 
RF signal is synthesized.  I’m not aware of any cases of audio harmonics 
appearing in Flex generated FT8/JT65/JT9 signals.  I run with a 4K wide RX and 
TX passband in DIGU mode, which bypasses all audio signal processing.

Dave / NX6D



From: Carey Fisher 
Sent: Wednesday, August 1, 2018 8:29:05 PM
To: WSJT software development
Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] A strange signal seen on the air

Well, duh...

On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 7:45 PM, G8DQX (WSJT developers on SF) 
mailto:wsjtde...@gape.me.uk>> wrote:

When the TX is not employing CAT control of frequency, for starters.

Robin

On 01/08/18 18:55, Carey Fisher wrote:
Name 1.

On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 1:35 PM, Black Michael via wsjt-devel 
mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>> 
wrote:
Because there are too many situations where it doesn't work.

de Mike W9MDB


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Re: [wsjt-devel] A strange signal seen on the air

[Carey Fisher]

Well, duh...

On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 7:45 PM, G8DQX (WSJT developers on SF) <
wsjtde...@gape.me.uk> wrote:

> When the TX is not employing CAT control of frequency, for starters.
>
> Robin
>
> On 01/08/18 18:55, Carey Fisher wrote:
>
> Name 1.
>
> On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 1:35 PM, Black Michael via wsjt-devel <
> wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:
>
>> Because there are too many situations where it doesn't work.
>>
>> de Mike W9MDB
>>
>
>
> 
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Re: [wsjt-devel] A strange signal seen on the air

[G8DQX (WSJT developers on SF)]

When the TX is not employing CAT control of frequency, for starters.

Robin


On 01/08/18 18:55, Carey Fisher wrote:

Name 1.

On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 1:35 PM, Black Michael via wsjt-devel 
> wrote:


Because there are too many situations where it doesn't work.

de Mike W9MDB



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Re: [wsjt-devel] A strange signal seen on the air

[Mark Spencer]

I don't believe it was due to the bandpass limits in the radios in question (my 
recollection is that as the audio frequency went down the drive level required 
for a given RF output level went up and this effect was fairly constant thru 
the audio pass band as opposed to only happening at high or low frequencies.)  
It is possible there may have been an issue with the audio interface(s) used to 
connect the computers to the radios but I recall the effect being more or less 
the same with both a commercially made unit and a home brew test scheme.   I 
also recall using two different connections (on the radio) to feed audio into 
one of the radios in question and the results were largely the same.  

Not a huge issue but thought I would mention it.  To recap it was quite easy to 
detect this using the meters / indicators in the radios and I like to think 
amateur radio licence holders should typically be able to deal with this type 
of issue but I can see some one who perhaps paying a lot of attention or had a 
built in meter set to say SWR (as opposed to power out or ALC) getting tripped 
up by this.

I don't have these types of issue with my IC7300.

73

Mark Spencer
VE7AFZ
netsyn...@gmail.com



> On Aug 1, 2018, at 3:22 PM, Black Michael via wsjt-devel 
>  wrote:
> 
> If you're needing different levels at 500 or 2500 then you are probably 
> hitting the bandpass limits you have set on your rig.
> Levels SHOULD be constant across your entire transmit bandpass.
> I can imagine 2500 might be a push for an older rig but 500 shouldn't be.
> 
> de Mike W9MDB
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Wednesday, August 1, 2018, 5:19:36 PM CDT, Mark Spencer 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Just to add to this:
> 
> In my experience it is also helpful to carry out this type of test procedure 
> at various audio frequencies within the audio pass band of the equipment in 
> question.  This is probably another good reason to run "CAT" control along 
> with "Split" so that the audio frequencies that are fed to the transmitter 
> are kept within a narrower range.
> 
> I have at least two older radios that require significantly different audio 
> drive levels at different audio frequencies.   While I don't routinely use 
> these radios with WSJT any more there may be other hams who have equipment 
> with a similar issue who may not realize that settings at an Audio frequency 
> of say 1500 Hz which give a good result may or may not be appropriate at say 
> 500 or 2500 Hz ?   I will add that looking at the appropriate meters / 
> displays on the radios in question does indicate to me that there is an issue 
> that needs to be addressed and in my view it is quite simple to adjust the 
> power slider to correct this.  Still it wouldn't surprise me if at least some 
> of the sub optimal signals on the air were due to this type of issue.
> 
> I've never gotten a bad audio report while using the radios in question for 
> SSB voice and when I used to run them on RTTY I used FSK so I never noticed 
> this issue until I started using these radios with WSJT.
> 
> As usual the opinions and experiences of others may differ from mine.
> 
> 73
> 
> Mark Spencer
> VE7AFZ
> netsyn...@gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
>> On Aug 1, 2018, at 11:41 AM, Black Michael via wsjt-devel 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Good instructions for the analog world.
>> 
>> There's one more way that works on most any computer these days
>> Even people with direct USB connections to their rigs are having problems.
>> 
>> I would add this...and it should work on most any rig setup
>> 
>> #1 Set WSJT-X to minimum power
>> #2 Set audio devices (record/playback) to 0dB
>> #3 Rig to 50% of rated power for CW (some rigs can do full power on CW, some 
>> can't)
>> #4 Rig gain to zero (MIC gain if you're input is the MIC, or USB gain if 
>> USB, or Data gain if one of the DIN connectors)
>> #5 Click Tune on WSJT-X
>> #6 Bring up WSJT-X power SLOWLY to max...you should still see no power or 
>> very low output on your rig (assuming rig gain is at zero).
>> #6 Bring rig gain up SLOWLY until you get 5W or so of power.  If you don't 
>> see power coming up then you have the wrong gain control.  Then look at your 
>> ALC meter.  Whatever your ALC meter shows at this stage is where it should 
>> stay as you bring up the rig gain. Some rigs show 1 bar of ALC (e.g. 
>> IC-7100), some show 30-50% (eg IC-7300/7410), some show no ALC at all.
>> #7 Bring rig gain up and eventually you will see the ALC start 
>> risingback it down to the level you had at 5W.  What ever transmit power 
>> % you have at that point is all you will be able to transmit without ALC 
>> kicking in.  It will probably be 80-90% of your rated CW power.
>> #8 Bring up rig power to full CW power level and the ALC should stay 
>> constant. You can now adjust your transmit power either from WSJT-X or the 
>> rig.
>> 
>> de Mike W9MDB
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Wednesday, August 1, 2018, 12:51:38 PM CDT, Jim Brown 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> On 8/1/2018 9:50 AM, Black 

Re: [wsjt-devel] A strange signal seen on the air

[Black Michael via wsjt-devel]

If you're needing different levels at 500 or 2500 then you are probably hitting 
the bandpass limits you have set on your rig.Levels SHOULD be constant across 
your entire transmit bandpass.I can imagine 2500 might be a push for an older 
rig but 500 shouldn't be.

de Mike W9MDB


 

On Wednesday, August 1, 2018, 5:19:36 PM CDT, Mark Spencer 
 wrote:  
 
 Just to add to this:
In my experience it is also helpful to carry out this type of test procedure at 
various audio frequencies within the audio pass band of the equipment in 
question.  This is probably another good reason to run "CAT" control along with 
"Split" so that the audio frequencies that are fed to the transmitter are kept 
within a narrower range.
I have at least two older radios that require significantly different audio 
drive levels at different audio frequencies.   While I don't routinely use 
these radios with WSJT any more there may be other hams who have equipment with 
a similar issue who may not realize that settings at an Audio frequency of say 
1500 Hz which give a good result may or may not be appropriate at say 500 or 
2500 Hz ?   I will add that looking at the appropriate meters / displays on the 
radios in question does indicate to me that there is an issue that needs to be 
addressed and in my view it is quite simple to adjust the power slider to 
correct this.  Still it wouldn't surprise me if at least some of the sub 
optimal signals on the air were due to this type of issue.
I've never gotten a bad audio report while using the radios in question for SSB 
voice and when I used to run them on RTTY I used FSK so I never noticed this 
issue until I started using these radios with WSJT.
As usual the opinions and experiences of others may differ from mine.
73

Mark spencerve7afznetsyn...@gmail.com


On Aug 1, 2018, at 11:41 AM, Black Michael via wsjt-devel 
 wrote:


Good instructions for the analog world.
There's one more way that works on most any computer these daysEven people 
with direct USB connections to their rigs are having problems.

I would add this...and it should work on most any rig setup
#1 Set WSJT-X to minimum power#2 Set audio devices (record/playback) to 0dB#3 
Rig to 50% of rated power for CW (some rigs can do full power on CW, some can't)
#4 Rig gain to zero (MIC gain if you're input is the MIC, or USB gain if USB, 
or Data gain if one of the DIN connectors)
#5 Click Tune on WSJT-X#6 Bring up WSJT-X power SLOWLY to max...you should 
still see no power or very low output on your rig (assuming rig gain is at 
zero).
#6 Bring rig gain up SLOWLY until you get 5W or so of power.  If you don't see 
power coming up then you have the wrong gain control.  Then look at your ALC 
meter.  Whatever your ALC meter shows at this stage is where it should stay as 
you bring up the rig gain. Some rigs show 1 bar of ALC (e.g. IC-7100), some 
show 30-50% (eg IC-7300/7410), some show no ALC at all.
#7 Bring rig gain up and eventually you will see the ALC start risingback 
it down to the level you had at 5W.  What ever transmit power % you have at 
that point is all you will be able to transmit without ALC kicking in.  It will 
probably be 80-90% of your rated CW power.#8 Bring up rig power to full CW 
power level and the ALC should stay constant. You can now adjust your transmit 
power either from WSJT-X or the rig.
de Mike W9MDB

 

On Wednesday, August 1, 2018, 12:51:38 PM CDT, Jim Brown 
 wrote:  
 
 On 8/1/2018 9:50 AM, Black Michael via wsjt-devel wrote:
> IMHO better if ops learn how to set up their rigs properly though.

Exactly right. The last page of this link has detailed instructions for 
setting audio levels that avoids distortion.

http://k9yc.com/USB_Interfaces.pdf

73, Jim K9YC

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Re: [wsjt-devel] A strange signal seen on the air

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

To All,

It's great to see all of the posts reviewing how to set audio correctly.

I was wondering if there's a published spec on the FT8 signal definition; I
think I may be seeing spurs and want to make sure that isn't actually part
of the fundamental.

73's,
John
AJ6BC

On Wed, Aug 1, 2018, 11:42 AM Black Michael via wsjt-devel <
wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:

> Good instructions for the analog world.
>
> There's one more way that works on most any computer these days
> Even people with direct USB connections to their rigs are having problems.
>
> I would add this...and it should work on most any rig setup
>
> #1 Set WSJT-X to minimum power
> #2 Set audio devices (record/playback) to 0dB
> #3 Rig to 50% of rated power for CW (some rigs can do full power on CW,
> some can't)
> #4 Rig gain to zero (MIC gain if you're input is the MIC, or USB gain if
> USB, or Data gain if one of the DIN connectors)
> #5 Click Tune on WSJT-X
> #6 Bring up WSJT-X power SLOWLY to max...you should still see no power or
> very low output on your rig (assuming rig gain is at zero).
> #6 Bring rig gain up SLOWLY until you get 5W or so of power.  If you don't
> see power coming up then you have the wrong gain control.  Then look at
> your ALC meter.  Whatever your ALC meter shows at this stage is where it
> should stay as you bring up the rig gain. Some rigs show 1 bar of ALC (e.g.
> IC-7100), some show 30-50% (eg IC-7300/7410), some show no ALC at all.
> #7 Bring rig gain up and eventually you will see the ALC start
> risingback it down to the level you had at 5W.  What ever transmit
> power % you have at that point is all you will be able to transmit without
> ALC kicking in.  It will probably be 80-90% of your rated CW power.
> #8 Bring up rig power to full CW power level and the ALC should stay
> constant. You can now adjust your transmit power either from WSJT-X or the
> rig.
>
> de Mike W9MDB
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, August 1, 2018, 12:51:38 PM CDT, Jim Brown <
> k...@audiosystemsgroup.com> wrote:
>
>
> On 8/1/2018 9:50 AM, Black Michael via wsjt-devel wrote:
> > IMHO better if ops learn how to set up their rigs properly though.
>
> Exactly right. The last page of this link has detailed instructions for
> setting audio levels that avoids distortion.
>
> http://k9yc.com/USB_Interfaces.pdf
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
>
>
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Re: [wsjt-devel] A strange signal seen on the air

[Black Michael via wsjt-devel]

Good instructions for the analog world.
There's one more way that works on most any computer these daysEven people 
with direct USB connections to their rigs are having problems.

I would add this...and it should work on most any rig setup
#1 Set WSJT-X to minimum power#2 Set audio devices (record/playback) to 0dB#3 
Rig to 50% of rated power for CW (some rigs can do full power on CW, some can't)
#4 Rig gain to zero (MIC gain if you're input is the MIC, or USB gain if USB, 
or Data gain if one of the DIN connectors)
#5 Click Tune on WSJT-X#6 Bring up WSJT-X power SLOWLY to max...you should 
still see no power or very low output on your rig (assuming rig gain is at 
zero).
#6 Bring rig gain up SLOWLY until you get 5W or so of power.  If you don't see 
power coming up then you have the wrong gain control.  Then look at your ALC 
meter.  Whatever your ALC meter shows at this stage is where it should stay as 
you bring up the rig gain. Some rigs show 1 bar of ALC (e.g. IC-7100), some 
show 30-50% (eg IC-7300/7410), some show no ALC at all.
#7 Bring rig gain up and eventually you will see the ALC start risingback 
it down to the level you had at 5W.  What ever transmit power % you have at 
that point is all you will be able to transmit without ALC kicking in.  It will 
probably be 80-90% of your rated CW power.#8 Bring up rig power to full CW 
power level and the ALC should stay constant. You can now adjust your transmit 
power either from WSJT-X or the rig.
de Mike W9MDB

 

On Wednesday, August 1, 2018, 12:51:38 PM CDT, Jim Brown 
 wrote:  
 
 On 8/1/2018 9:50 AM, Black Michael via wsjt-devel wrote:
> IMHO better if ops learn how to set up their rigs properly though.

Exactly right. The last page of this link has detailed instructions for 
setting audio levels that avoids distortion.

http://k9yc.com/USB_Interfaces.pdf

73, Jim K9YC

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Re: [wsjt-devel] A strange signal seen on the air

[Carey Fisher]

Name 1.

On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 1:35 PM, Black Michael via wsjt-devel <
wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:

> Because there are too many situations where it doesn't work.
>
> de Mike W9MDB
>
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, August 1, 2018, 12:27:46 PM CDT, Mike Lavelle <
> micle...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
> I agree that the "Fake IT" split option should help the harmnic problem
> and should be emphazied.
>
> Is there any reason that "Fake It" should NOT be made the default mode for
> any split mode capable rig?
>
> Making it the default would help clean up our waterfalls.
>
>
>
> Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App
>
>
> -- Original Message --
>
> *From: *iveydj
> *To: *WSJT software development
> *Sent: *August 1, 2018 at 9:45 AM
> *Subject: *Re: [wsjt-devel] A strange signal seen on the air
>
> Have been following this thread with great interest. Have not seen input
> about setting WSJT-X Split config to Rig or Fake It. If I understand the
> feature correctly, this temporarily shifts the TX VFO so the right
> frequency is sent but audio harmonics are out of the TX passband,
> supressing them.
>
> Dave KE4EA
>
>
>
> Sent from my Sprint Samsung Galaxy Note5.
>
> ---- Original message ----
> From: Claude Frantz 
> Date: 7/31/18 12:29 PM (GMT-05:00)
> To: wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] A strange signal seen on the air
>
> On 07/31/2018 05:18 PM, Black Michael via wsjt-devel wrote:
>
> Many thanks Mike and George. I confess that I'm surprised. I will
> observe these signals further if they occur. It's an interesting matter.
> Hi !
>
> Best wishes,
> Claude (DJ0OT)
>
>
> 
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Re: [wsjt-devel] A strange signal seen on the air

[Jim Brown]

On 8/1/2018 9:50 AM, Black Michael via wsjt-devel wrote:

IMHO better if ops learn how to set up their rigs properly though.


Exactly right. The last page of this link has detailed instructions for 
setting audio levels that avoids distortion.


http://k9yc.com/USB_Interfaces.pdf

73, Jim K9YC

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Re: [wsjt-devel] A strange signal seen on the air

[Black Michael via wsjt-devel]

Because there are too many situations where it doesn't work.
de Mike W9MDB


 

On Wednesday, August 1, 2018, 12:27:46 PM CDT, Mike Lavelle 
 wrote:  
 
 I agree that the "Fake IT" split option should help the harmnic problem and 
should be emphazied.    

Is there any reason that "Fake It" should NOT be made the default mode for any 
split mode capable rig?   

Making it the default would help clean up our waterfalls. 



Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App

-- Original Message --

From: iveydj
To: WSJT software development
Sent: August 1, 2018 at 9:45 AM
Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] A strange signal seen on the air

Have been following this thread with great interest. Have not seen input about 
setting WSJT-X Split config to Rig or Fake It. If I understand the feature 
correctly, this temporarily shifts the TX VFO so the right frequency is sent 
but audio harmonics are out of the TX passband, supressing them. 
Dave KE4EA


Sent from my Sprint Samsung Galaxy Note5.
 Original message From: Claude Frantz 
 Date: 7/31/18 12:29 PM (GMT-05:00) To: 
wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] A strange signal 
seen on the air 
On 07/31/2018 05:18 PM, Black Michael via wsjt-devel wrote:

Many thanks Mike and George. I confess that I'm surprised. I will
observe these signals further if they occur. It's an interesting matter.
Hi !

Best wishes,
Claude (DJ0OT)


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Re: [wsjt-devel] A strange signal seen on the air

[Mike Lavelle]

I agree that the "Fake IT" split option should help the harmnic problem and should be emphazied.    Is there any reason that "Fake It" should NOT be made the default mode for any split mode capable rig?   Making it the default would help clean up our waterfalls. Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App-- Original Message --From: iveydjTo: WSJT software developmentSent: August 1, 2018 at 9:45 AMSubject: Re: [wsjt-devel] A strange signal seen on the airHave been following this thread with great interest. Have not seen input about setting WSJT-X Split config to Rig or Fake It. If I understand the feature correctly, this temporarily shifts the TX VFO so the right frequency is sent but audio harmonics are out of the TX passband, supressing them. Dave KE4EASent from my Sprint Samsung Galaxy Note5. Original message From: Claude Frantz  Date: 7/31/18  12:29 PM  (GMT-05:00) To: wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] A strange signal seen on the air On 07/31/2018 05:18 PM, Black Michael via wsjt-devel wrote:Many thanks Mike and George. I confess that I'm surprised. I willobserve these signals further if they occur. It's an interesting matter.Hi !Best wishes,Claude (DJ0OT)--Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's mostengaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot___wsjt-devel mailing listwsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.nethttps://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-devel--
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Re: [wsjt-devel] A strange signal seen on the air

[Black Michael via wsjt-devel]

That is trueIMHO better if ops learn how to set up their rigs properly 
though.
We (me and a fellow noise-warrior) find many ops don't understand bandwidth or 
how to set it, or ALC effects.Split mode does fix their 
ALC-noise-generated-problems but better to fix their setup instead.
I've help over 100 ops fix their systems and taught them how to set up their 
systems.
Seems like since Baker Island a lot of new FT8 users showed upmost 
everybody I see with the problem doesn't have JTAlert for example so are really 
new users.

de Mike W9MDB


 

On Wednesday, August 1, 2018, 11:44:55 AM CDT, iveydj 
 wrote:  
 
 Have been following this thread with great interest. Have not seen input about 
setting WSJT-X Split config to Rig or Fake It. If I understand the feature 
correctly, this temporarily shifts the TX VFO so the right frequency is sent 
but audio harmonics are out of the TX passband, supressing them. 
Dave KE4EA


Sent from my Sprint Samsung Galaxy Note5.
 Original message From: Claude Frantz 
 Date: 7/31/18 12:29 PM (GMT-05:00) To: 
wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] A strange signal 
seen on the air 
On 07/31/2018 05:18 PM, Black Michael via wsjt-devel wrote:

Many thanks Mike and George. I confess that I'm surprised. I will
observe these signals further if they occur. It's an interesting matter.
Hi !

Best wishes,
Claude (DJ0OT)


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Re: [wsjt-devel] A strange signal seen on the air

[harold deitz via wsjt-devel]

Bill,
The distortion and harmonics are in the audio section, which when over driven 
are no longer linear.  The harmonics that you are seeing are audio,, not RF.  
The RF signal is still linear.
Hal W5GHZ


Sent from Yahoo Mail. Get the app 

On ‎Tuesday‎, ‎July‎ ‎31‎, ‎2018‎ ‎10‎:‎38‎:‎09‎ ‎PM‎ ‎GMT, Bill Somerville 
 wrote:  
 
  On 31/07/2018 16:18, Black Michael via wsjt-devel wrote:
  
 Sometimes you see the 2nd and sometimes the 3rd (and once I've seen the 4th).  
Depends on how well the rig suppresses the 2nd harmonic.
   
   
 
Hi Mike,
 
I don't understand how you come to the conclusion that the rig could suppress a 
2nd harmonic and not not suppress a 3rd harmonic of audio passed to it by at 
least the same amount. I can't think of any way that could happen with an SSB 
transmitter unless the fundamental is below ~200Hz.
 
OTOH odd-integer harmonics are often the result of clipped signal distortion.

  

73
 Bill
 G4WJS.
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Re: [wsjt-devel] A strange signal seen on the air

[harold deitz via wsjt-devel]

Heavy clipping causes (almost a square wave) which produces odd harmonics.  
Very light clipping (not so square) may also include some even harmonics.  If 
you look at the signal with an O-scope, it is easy to see.
Hal W5GHZ


Sent from Yahoo Mail. Get the app 

On ‎Tuesday‎, ‎July‎ ‎31‎, ‎2018‎ ‎10‎:‎38‎:‎09‎ ‎PM‎ ‎GMT, Bill Somerville 
 wrote:  
 
  On 31/07/2018 16:18, Black Michael via wsjt-devel wrote:
  
 Sometimes you see the 2nd and sometimes the 3rd (and once I've seen the 4th).  
Depends on how well the rig suppresses the 2nd harmonic.
   
   
 
Hi Mike,
 
I don't understand how you come to the conclusion that the rig could suppress a 
2nd harmonic and not not suppress a 3rd harmonic of audio passed to it by at 
least the same amount. I can't think of any way that could happen with an SSB 
transmitter unless the fundamental is below ~200Hz.
 
OTOH odd-integer harmonics are often the result of clipped signal distortion.

  

73
 Bill
 G4WJS.
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Re: [wsjt-devel] A strange signal seen on the air

[Bill Somerville]

On 31/07/2018 16:18, Black Michael via wsjt-devel wrote:
Sometimes you see the 2nd and sometimes the 3rd (and once I've seen 
the 4th).  Depends on how well the rig suppresses the 2nd harmonic.



Hi Mike,

I don't understand how you come to the conclusion that the rig could 
suppress a 2nd harmonic and not not suppress a 3rd harmonic of audio 
passed to it by at least the same amount. I can't think of any way that 
could happen with an SSB transmitter unless the fundamental is below ~200Hz.


OTOH odd-integer harmonics are often the result of clipped signal 
distortion.


73
Bill
G4WJS.

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Re: [wsjt-devel] A strange signal seen on the air

[Bill Somerville]

On 31/07/2018 16:07, Claude Frantz wrote:

OK ! We can suspect a clipping, in the audio range, resulting in this
signal at 2830 Hz. But there is no 2nd harmonic at 1880 Hz on this
waterfall. Of course, such a clipping resulting only in odd harmonics is
possible, but it would be surprising to me. Further, the starting time
of this "3th harmonic" is not consistent with the fundamental signal.

Best wishes,
Claude (DJ0OT)


Hi Claude,

signals rich in either odd or even harmonics are quite likely and odd 
harmonics are most prevalent. This is because a square wave, which is 
the general shape of a clipped waveform will consist of only odd-integer 
harmonics. Real world clipped signals are complex and will contain some 
even-integer harmonics but they rarely dominate.


73
Bill
G4WJS.


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Re: [wsjt-devel] A strange signal seen on the air

[harold deitz via wsjt-devel]

I have been thinking about this for some time.  Went through the setup again 
and things set up different now.  Would anyone be willing to give me a call and 
take a look at my signal.  
Hal W5GHZ  405-974-0760  anytime 

Sent from Yahoo Mail. Get the app 

On ‎Tuesday‎, ‎July‎ ‎31‎, ‎2018‎ ‎10‎:‎07‎:‎17‎ ‎AM‎ ‎GMT, Claude Frantz 
 wrote:  
 
 Hi All,

Sometimes, I have seen a strange signal on the air, in the usual FT8
"sub band". There are 8 tones in a bandwidth of 100 Hz and a TX duration
of 15 s. Is this a CLOVER signal or anything else ?

Best wishes,
Claude (DJ0OT)

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Re: [wsjt-devel] A strange signal seen on the air

[Claude Frantz]

On 07/31/2018 05:18 PM, Black Michael via wsjt-devel wrote:

Many thanks Mike and George. I confess that I'm surprised. I will
observe these signals further if they occur. It's an interesting matter.
Hi !

Best wishes,
Claude (DJ0OT)


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Re: [wsjt-devel] A strange signal seen on the air

[Black Michael via wsjt-devel]

Actually the noise correlates perfectly with the signal at 940...look 
again...the top :45 entry chops off about half way through the interval and the 
noise goes with itplus the fact that the math works out perfectly with the 
150Hz wide noise being 3*50.
I contacted that op and worked with him to fix his ALC problem and the noise 
went away.I've seen dozens of these and have worked with dozens of people to 
get them fixed...all have the same problem...overdriving the audio.  Sometimes 
you see the 2nd and sometimes the 3rd (and once I've seen the 4th).  Depends on 
how well the rig suppresses the 2nd harmonic.

 Mike

On Tuesday, July 31, 2018, 10:10:49 AM CDT, Claude Frantz 
 wrote:  
 
 On 07/31/2018 04:38 PM, Black Michael via wsjt-devel wrote:

Hi Mike & All,

> The signals look clean but they are the result of clipping the signal
> due to overdriving the audio.

> Like this one...3rd harmonic at 2830 or so...offending signal at 940 or
> so...

OK ! We can suspect a clipping, in the audio range, resulting in this
signal at 2830 Hz. But there is no 2nd harmonic at 1880 Hz on this
waterfall. Of course, such a clipping resulting only in odd harmonics is
possible, but it would be surprising to me. Further, the starting time
of this "3th harmonic" is not consistent with the fundamental signal.

Best wishes,
Claude (DJ0OT)

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Re: [wsjt-devel] A strange signal seen on the air

[George Molnar]

Hi Claude.

I think Mike´s interpretation is correct. Third harmonics are often stronger 
than the 2nd, and the variation in signal strength does seem to match the 
fundamental (which, BTW, is not the TX/RX selected DF).

I see this quite frequently. A lot of hay is made on the Facebook group and 
elsewhere about it being some obscure digital mode, but the simplest solution 
is almost certainly right in this case.

73,

George/KF2T



> On Jul 31, 2018, at 11:07 AM, Claude Frantz  
> wrote:
> 
> On 07/31/2018 04:38 PM, Black Michael via wsjt-devel wrote:
> 
> Hi Mike & All,
> 
>> The signals look clean but they are the result of clipping the signal
>> due to overdriving the audio.
> 
>> Like this one...3rd harmonic at 2830 or so...offending signal at 940 or
>> so...
> 
> OK ! We can suspect a clipping, in the audio range, resulting in this
> signal at 2830 Hz. But there is no 2nd harmonic at 1880 Hz on this
> waterfall. Of course, such a clipping resulting only in odd harmonics is
> possible, but it would be surprising to me. Further, the starting time
> of this "3th harmonic" is not consistent with the fundamental signal.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Claude (DJ0OT)
> 
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Re: [wsjt-devel] A strange signal seen on the air

[Claude Frantz]

On 07/31/2018 04:38 PM, Black Michael via wsjt-devel wrote:

Hi Mike & All,

> The signals look clean but they are the result of clipping the signal
> due to overdriving the audio.

> Like this one...3rd harmonic at 2830 or so...offending signal at 940 or
> so...

OK ! We can suspect a clipping, in the audio range, resulting in this
signal at 2830 Hz. But there is no 2nd harmonic at 1880 Hz on this
waterfall. Of course, such a clipping resulting only in odd harmonics is
possible, but it would be surprising to me. Further, the starting time
of this "3th harmonic" is not consistent with the fundamental signal.

Best wishes,
Claude (DJ0OT)

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Re: [wsjt-devel] A strange signal seen on the air

[Claude Frantz]

On 07/31/2018 03:01 PM, Black Michael via wsjt-devel wrote:

> That's harmonics.  If it's 100Hz wide it's the 2nd harmonic, 150Hz wide
> it's the 3rd,.

The signals, I have seen, have 8 tones within 100 Hz. Approximatively,
of course, because I report only what I have seen on the waterfall.
Therefore, there is a spacing of 14.3 Hz between the tones. These
signals are clean, without apparent trace of overdrive or so.

Best wishes,
Claude (DJ0OT)

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Re: [wsjt-devel] A strange signal seen on the air

[David Tiller]

Claude,

That sounds a lot like a dirty FT8 signal that has second (and possibly higher) 
harmonics. 

I have a screenshot of a signal with seven (yes 7) higher order harmonics. 

> On Jul 31, 2018, at 06:07, Claude Frantz  wrote:
> 
> Hi All,
> 
> Sometimes, I have seen a strange signal on the air, in the usual FT8
> "sub band". There are 8 tones in a bandwidth of 100 Hz and a TX duration
> of 15 s. Is this a CLOVER signal or anything else ?
> 
> Best wishes,
> Claude (DJ0OT)
> 
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Re: [wsjt-devel] A strange signal seen on the air

[Black Michael via wsjt-devel]

That's harmonics.  If it's 100Hz wide it's the 2nd harmonic, 150Hz wide it's 
the 3rd,.
Been seeing them a lot and you can divide the starting offset by 2 or 3 as 
appropriate and find out who's doing it.
Quite a few ops overdriving their audio.  Been more of them since Baker Island 
with the older ops now transitioning to FT8 and not knowing how to set their 
audio.

de Mike W9MDB


 

On Tuesday, July 31, 2018, 5:07:15 AM CDT, Claude Frantz 
 wrote:  
 
 Hi All,

Sometimes, I have seen a strange signal on the air, in the usual FT8
"sub band". There are 8 tones in a bandwidth of 100 Hz and a TX duration
of 15 s. Is this a CLOVER signal or anything else ?

Best wishes,
Claude (DJ0OT)

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[wsjt-devel] A strange signal seen on the air

[Claude Frantz]

Hi All,

Sometimes, I have seen a strange signal on the air, in the usual FT8
"sub band". There are 8 tones in a bandwidth of 100 Hz and a TX duration
of 15 s. Is this a CLOVER signal or anything else ?

Best wishes,
Claude (DJ0OT)

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