--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe wrote:
...and, Carl,
Heterodoxy is fine by me, too. Have at it if that is your ken.
I only write about Zen as I know it, which is Zen as it is practiced, and
realized.
I'm a practitioner. You too?
Mostly, I speak about practice and its
Hi, Merle,
There you go, breaking our golden moment, ...with a Bodhisattva's lovely golden
words; hey, that isn't so bad after all, is it? ;-)
Hoping you're well, and that your German house guests had a fine visit, and you
with them. Did you demonstrate your t'ai chi form for them? If they
Thank you, Carl!
That's valuable info for me. Thanks very much for those references.
--Joe
PS I think you're right about the origins of Zen. Histories generally
emphasize the development of its practices and culture in China, and then how
it was partly preserved as received in Japan, and
Joe, br/br/Is this not what I wrote?br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from
Yahoo! Mail for iPhonebr/
I don't believe I need to prove anything here, it's the same kind of question
that Zen should be proved. If what I said makes some sense good, obviously it
did not to you so I would suggest you ignore it. (Unless of course you wish to
impose some Zen orthodoxy here, I'm not interested in such
Carl,
Now, now, don't go off all testy, pls.
The proof I suggest that would be needed is something I present
intellectually as a philosophical challenge, and as a challenge to the
experience of a practitioner, not a personal challenge. It's not a test. Just
a topic for forum discussion, if
Oops, sorry, Carl,
The first part of my post is meant for Iain, not you.
Sorry, Iain!
My confusion. Too many proofs.
Carl, the part of my post relevant to you is re-quoted, below, and edited.
--Joe
Carl,
Now, now, don't go off all testy, pls.
I don't ask for a proof of the
As I said I'm not interested in these games, so this subject is closed on my
part. If you were genuinely interested in the subject, you would not have this
approach of attempting to discredit it publicly and get the group back to
discussing your orthodox views of Zen (that you have displayed in
Carl,
Your free choice. I'd hoped you'd add to your previous information.
--Joe
Carl wrote:
As I said I'm not interested in these games, so this subject is closed on my
part. If you were genuinely interested in the subject, you would not have
this approach of attempting to discredit it
...and, Carl,
Heterodoxy is fine by me, too. Have at it if that is your ken.
I only write about Zen as I know it, which is Zen as it is practiced, and
realized.
I'm a practitioner. You too?
Mostly, I speak about practice and its upshot, and not much about theory. But
I'm game for theory,
Carl,br/br/Paranoid much?br/br/Mike (or is it?...)br/br/Sent from
Yahoo! Mail for iPhonebr/
Mike,
Call yourself an 'Illuminati' (or 'Illuminatus', singular), whether true or
not, ...and I may feel reason to doubt you (as such).
But, please, please!, don't let this doubt of mine overpower your right and
ability to let me have it, truthfully, between the eyes. Keep off other areas,
I doubt there are really 400 readers for our energetic debates here. I bet
nost of the lurkers are either no mail or else let it pile up unread in
numberless email boxes.
Thanks,
--Chris
301-270-6524
On Feb 6, 2013 2:09 PM, Joe desert_woodwor...@yahoo.com wrote:
...and, Carl,
Heterodoxy is
Howdy, Chris,
Be that as dismay... .
;-)
--Joe
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane wrote:
I doubt there are really 400 readers for our energetic debates here. I bet
nost of the lurkers are either no mail or else let it pile up unread in
numberless email boxes.
Thanks,
Chris,br/br/I hope so. We do less damage that
way.br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhonebr/
br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhonebr/
--
* From: * Chris Austin-Lane ch...@austin-lane.net;
* To: * Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com;
* Subject: * Re: [Zen] Acting against seeming inevitability -- WAS: Re:
war criminals
* Sent: * Thu, Feb 7, 2013 2:55:32 AM
I doubt there are really 400 readers for our energetic debates here. I bet
nost
Mike,
Just wait a minute; wait a MINUTE!!
A Minute?
The more damage, the better. No?
Or was I just born in some other strange universe?
I hope not. I like this Zen-Practice universe jus' fine. I repeat, jus' fine.
Fine.
Hoping you and yours are well,
--Joe
--- In
Now, now, Mike.
Let's not make too light of something like Jewry.
While I was at Columbia in New York City in College during 1970-74, many campus
announcements of presentations, etc., had to do with Jewry, but my eyes always
first interpreted: Jewelry. My error!!, Just as, later, some
Moik (Mike),
As a mathematician, it's been embarrassing to me to see the progression of
lovely mathematical icons cut into the cereal grains of the UK, and citizens
taking the designs as odd, and as if of far-out origin. Who-dunnit?
It's clear that 100% of the designs are due to current-day
folks : let's not get too up ourselves..the greatest zen practitioners are
those who know silence is golden..merle
Mike,
Yes, the way some people talk sometimes, you'd think Zen has nothing to do with
ANYTHING... which is not the case (I don't mean you, Mike!).
Some say that precepts
Mike, Edgar,
I believe a Buddha's samadhi -- or, by any other name, an Awake- Person's
samadhi -- continues throughout the day, whether sitting, walking, eating,
teaching, preaching, or shopping.
This non-intermittence is also why an awakened person's (Buddha's) sleep is
dreamless.
After
Edgar,br/br/Zen 101: don't create dualisms (between Zen and
meditation).br/br/Read closely and you will see that I wrote that
meditation is *not* just something you do on the mat. Zen is meditation that is
24/7.br/br/Cheer up! You almost got it right ;
)br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail
Joe, br/br/Is this not what I wrote?br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from
Yahoo! Mail for iPhonebr/
Hiya, Mike,
Yes; you wrote something like that. But your phraseology was extremely
elegant, and sparse.
Thereby, however, Edgar, et al., thus got the word from you, the Horse's Mouth.
But I added my voice, so he/they might also have it from the Other End.
Technically, this is called,
to make a case is a bit like Thatcher quoting Marx in support of
capitalism.
Mike
Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone
From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net;
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com;
Subject: Re: [Zen] Acting against seeming inevitability -- WAS: Re: war
criminals
Sent: Mon, Feb 4
Edgar,
Well, we know they didn't have toothbrushes, then. ;-)
(or, have some turned up among the antiquities? -- sincerely curious...)
tnx,
--Joe
Edgar Owen wrote:
Mike,
How the hell do you claim to know what the Buddha did everyday?
Edgar
Carl,
Good to meet you here.
Have you had any runs-ins or meetings, yourself, with those folks? I would
guess they keep their profiles largely hidden, so maybe it's hard to certain.
But have you had indications? Troubles?
I'm largely skeptical of their existence, but I honestly have no
Edgar, br/br/How could a Buddha be a Buddha if not in meditation? Unless of
course you think meditation is just something you do on occasional visits to
the local temple ; )br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for
iPhonebr/
Edgar, br/br/How could a Buddha be a Buddha if not in meditation? Unless of
course you think meditation is just something you do on occasional visits to
the local temple ; )br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for
iPhonebr/
Mike,
Yes, the way some people talk sometimes, you'd think Zen has nothing to do with
ANYTHING... which is not the case (I don't mean you, Mike!).
Some say that precepts have nothing to do with Zen; that would be a fair
judgement, if these people knew Zen intimately.
Precepts, however, have
Joe,br/br/I think so, too. I'm sure Edgar would scoff at the rituals
performed in Zen (especially Soto). But for me, both the precepts and rituals
(how to enter the zendo, for example) are there to remind us to be aware and
awake and that each and every movement is an opportunity for
Joe,br/br/I think so, too. I'm sure Edgar would scoff at the rituals
performed in Zen (especially Soto). But for me, both the precepts and rituals
(how to enter the zendo, for example) are there to remind us to be aware and
awake and that each and every movement is an opportunity for
;
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com;
Subject: [Zen] Acting against seeming inevitability -- WAS: Re: war criminals
Sent: Sun, Feb 3, 2013 4:25:34 PM
Mike,
Yes, the way some people talk sometimes, you'd think Zen has nothing to do
with ANYTHING... which is not the case (I don't mean you
br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhonebr/
Mike, Howdy,
Well, I don't know; I just don't know.
But a line I heard from a Taoist master once, was:
If they laugh, you can be sure you have the real thing.
[-)
--Joe
;-)
PS But Ritual, anyway, is just Making visible of the invisible. Nothing
wrong with that. Astronomers and
Edgar,
I won't say!
In a formal practice place, though, I'd say we just follow the customs and the
rules, and enjoy every minute of it. We are practicing with great mature
Bodhisattvas, as well as with beginners, all together. We act uniformly, and
no one opts-out, nor acts out (except in
Mike,
Mike wrote, below:
...(how to enter the zendo, for example) are there to remind us to be aware
and awake and that each and every movement is an opportunity for
enlightenment...
Agreed.
In some places, too, the doorway of the meditation hall can be a little narrow,
and people are
Joe,br/br/What you say makes sense on the social side of things, but
equally holds true at the individual level, too.br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent
from Yahoo! Mail for iPhonebr/
Mike,
Indeed. That's why I wrote agreed. And went on to emphasize the other.
But please say more upon where we agreed, even though I felt the same.
There may also be others here who want to hear this for perhaps the first time.
I, too, would like to know just exactly what you have in
Joe,br/br/With pleasure. The ritualised side of Soto Zen pratice allows us
to be aware that each moment/movement is sacred. Off course, wiping the shit
off the side of the toilet is no less sacred than bowing to the Roshi or
reciting the precepts, but such rituals help to unify the mind and
The real enemy are not war criminals but the Illuminanti. They are the puppet
masters, simple minds are preferable to them. If you make progress you will
attract their attention. As has been pointed out the way is not related to
conventional morality.
Scott,
You're welcome. Of course, the idea to practice with Sheng Yen's folks is just
a suggestion. There may be other more economical choices available to you.
But I think there is more of a presence of Dharma teaching in Taiwan than in
mainland China, and Sheng Yen's people are very
Hey Y'all,br/br/I began using an ipad last week and posted a couple of
times, but not received any replies. Has this, or any other messages, been
getting thru?br/br/Thanksbr/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for
iPhonebr/
Hi Mike,
I have recieved some of your messages in my email inbox but when i look at the
forums message page i don't see your posts listed there. I don't have the
ability to reply to the group via my email account so i'm replying to your
email address, i have to go to the forums message page
That's embarrassing, apparently i do have the ability to reply to the group via
my email account. I shouldn't post this late at night.
--
On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 01:58 GMT iain munro wrote:
Hi Mike,
I have recieved some of your messages in my email inbox but when i
Iain, Chris,br/br/Thanks for the reply. I've messed around with the
settings and think I've sussed it out now. It's just a pity the group won't get
the benefit of my previous wise and insightful
posts.br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhonebr/
This one did, Mike, but I think it's been a while since we've seen you here.
Just one other very recent message of yours came to the group, I think. But it
seems to be working now!
So you won't lose messages, maybe always send one to yourself, too?, unless
your system has a feature already
Joe, br/br/One of my posts was a response to a message you addressed to me.
I'll see if I can dig it up and repost it. I thought I'd done something wrong
and was put in Coventry. Or my posts just weren't responding to (the most
likely reason). Here goes!br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for
br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhonebr/
Found them!br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhonebr/
This one got through...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote:
Hey Y'all,br/br/I began using an ipad last week and posted a couple of
times, but not received any replies. Has this, or any other messages, been
getting thru?br/br/Thanksbr/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from Yahoo!
Hi Joe,
My idea is this, and probably a mess in everyones' eyes I'm sure:
1. Matter does not exist.
2. We, as individuals, don't exist.
3. Nothing actually exists except a stream of conciousness
4. A chunk of concrete, my dog, or my wife,myself, are all only illusions of
the all pervading
Scott,
The numbered points you make are all metaphysical statements, and of course a
Philosopher will rightly raise epistemological questions about each and every
one. That is, how do you KNOW?
For example, vis-a-vis your point number 1.), how do you know Matter does not
exist?
Then, I
, and just get back to
basics, and stop post-analyzing. I guess at the moment, thats all I can
do.Thanks again,Bummy-chan
--- On Sat, 2/2/13, Joe desert_woodwor...@yahoo.com wrote:
From: Joe desert_woodwor...@yahoo.com
Subject: [Zen] Acting against seeming inevitability -- WAS: Re: war criminals
Scott,
If you could get over to Taiwan, you could practice with Sheng Yen's folks
there. No need to go to New York! Their place can be found on the web. If
your Chinese is good, you'll feel at home. But their English is good also.
Let them show you the basics as they practice them.
hey Joe,
Thanks for the quick response! Taiwan is far more do-able! I'll check them out
on the internet. Unfortunately, after living in Japan all those years, my brain
short circuited, and Chinese is wa too difficult for me. I can speak i
dian dian, but sound completely retarded I'm
Scott,
That raises the natural question even despite, as you say, the way in which
everything comes into being, of: how is it possible to violate (break) the
Precepts?
There are ten Grave precepts which all practitioners accept (who choose to do
so when given the opportunity to study them and
More true believer orthodox crap from Joe! Zen has nothing to do with taking
any precepts.
Edgar
On Jan 31, 2013, at 9:53 AM, Joe wrote:
Scott,
That raises the natural question even despite, as you say, the way in which
everything comes into being, of: how is it possible to
Edgar,
You lurker, you!
Talk about being in the spirit of the inevitable: good to see you.
--Joe
Edgar Owen wrote:
More true believer orthodox crap from Joe! Zen has nothing to do with taking
any precepts.
Current Book Discussion: any Zen
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