Hey Y'all,br/br/I began using an ipad last week and posted a couple of
times, but not received any replies. Has this, or any other messages, been
getting thru?br/br/Thanksbr/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for
iPhonebr/
Iain, Chris,br/br/Thanks for the reply. I've messed around with the
settings and think I've sussed it out now. It's just a pity the group won't get
the benefit of my previous wise and insightful
posts.br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhonebr/
Joe, br/br/One of my posts was a response to a message you addressed to me.
I'll see if I can dig it up and repost it. I thought I'd done something wrong
and was put in Coventry. Or my posts just weren't responding to (the most
likely reason). Here goes!br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for
br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhonebr/
br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhonebr/
br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhonebr/
br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhonebr/
Found them!br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhonebr/
Joe,br/br/I think so, too. I'm sure Edgar would scoff at the rituals
performed in Zen (especially Soto). But for me, both the precepts and rituals
(how to enter the zendo, for example) are there to remind us to be aware and
awake and that each and every movement is an opportunity for
Joe,br/br/I think so, too. I'm sure Edgar would scoff at the rituals
performed in Zen (especially Soto). But for me, both the precepts and rituals
(how to enter the zendo, for example) are there to remind us to be aware and
awake and that each and every movement is an opportunity for
br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhonebr/
Joe,br/br/What you say makes sense on the social side of things, but
equally holds true at the individual level, too.br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent
from Yahoo! Mail for iPhonebr/
Joe,br/br/With pleasure. The ritualised side of Soto Zen pratice allows us
to be aware that each moment/movement is sacred. Off course, wiping the shit
off the side of the toilet is no less sacred than bowing to the Roshi or
reciting the precepts, but such rituals help to unify the mind and
Edgar, br/br/How could a Buddha be a Buddha if not in meditation? Unless of
course you think meditation is just something you do on occasional visits to
the local temple ; )br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for
iPhonebr/
Edgar, br/br/How could a Buddha be a Buddha if not in meditation? Unless of
course you think meditation is just something you do on occasional visits to
the local temple ; )br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for
iPhonebr/
Edgar,br/br/Zen 101: don't create dualisms (between Zen and
meditation).br/br/Read closely and you will see that I wrote that
meditation is *not* just something you do on the mat. Zen is meditation that is
24/7.br/br/Cheer up! You almost got it right ;
)br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail
Joe, br/br/Is this not what I wrote?br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from
Yahoo! Mail for iPhonebr/
Joe, br/br/Is this not what I wrote?br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from
Yahoo! Mail for iPhonebr/
Carl,br/br/Paranoid much?br/br/Mike (or is it?...)br/br/Sent from
Yahoo! Mail for iPhonebr/
Chris,br/br/I hope so. We do less damage that
way.br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhonebr/
br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhonebr/
Merle, br/br/I've no idea! I seem to be the target of either
penis-enlargement adverts or weight loss. Maybe they think if I lose weight
around my belly my penis will seem larger...br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from
Yahoo! Mail for iPhonebr/
Merle,br/br/I dont like to brag, but I've often been told that I have
special powers of clairvoyance and deep insightful wisdom. What I'm feeling, is
that you have snakes in your garden and ... Yes, the spirits are also telling
me you have a pool. With water in it.. And 2 Gray Elephants. Am I
Merle,br/br/The spirits told me you were going to say that!br/br/Yep,
still in Adelaide. Great city!br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for
iPhonebr/
Merle,br/br/The spirits told me you were going to say that!br/br/Yep,
still in Adelaide. Great city!br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for
iPhonebr/
Bill!br/br/Nice take!br/br/For me tho, there is no life; no death.
Only: br/br/All along this road,br/Not a single soul - onlybr/Autumn
evening comes.br/ -
Basho.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone
Joe, br/br/Garbled or 'gobbled'? ; )br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from
Yahoo! Mail for iPhone
Joe,br/br/I'm completely on board with you. Even on the micro-level (say
after a few rounds of sitting zazen) you can feel the space between thoughts
shrink if you don't keep up the intensity. But once thru the gateless gate
there's a kind of 'muscle memory' that makes coming back to the mat
br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone
Edgar,br/br/It doesn't even matter to me whether the historical Buddha
existed or not. But I still see you think meditation only consists of sitting
cross-legged under a Bodhi tree.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo!
Mail for iPhone
br/Roses are redbr/Violets are titsbr/I like titsbr/Tits! Tits!
Tits!br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone
Merle,br/br/Why are you so opposed to meditation? Have you tried
it?br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone
Merle, br/br/Not all people who smoke cigarettes, drink alcohol, or eat
chocolate want to quit! br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for
iPhone
br/Joe,br/br/Every moment has the potential for providing that to those
awake to it (no hoping required!).br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail
for iPhone
br/Merle,br/br/You mentioned that someone didn't have the will-power to
quit smoking. How do you know he, or anyone else for that matter, wanted to
quit?br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone
Edgar,br/br/Way too intellectual! But then again, experiential wisdom ain't
your thing..br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone
Merle,br/br/Neither is being blind to the bleeding
obvious!br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone
br/Merle,br/br/Well, not nicotine anyway.. ; )br/br/But you're
correct. People should have the freedom to put into their body what they like
as long as it doesn't cause harm to anyone else.br/br/ People need to come
to the realisation of what is harmful to them by themselves thru education and
br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone
br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone
Bill!,br/br/Thing is tho, not all meditation leads to the same thing. Some
simply calm the mind (mantras, chanting, jhanas etc) and others lead to insight
wisdom. Although many arts have come out of Zen (martial, calligraphy, flower
arranging etc), all the masters of those arts have in common
Merle,br/br/We're all in harmony here just waiting for you to stir the
pot... ; )br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone
Joe,br/br/They all have the potential to be turning words regardless of who
says them ; )br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone
Bill!,br/br/I'm not sure why you always flog this horse about Buddhism
being Mumbo jumbo. The way of Vipassana is as clear and concise as any manual
on making a pizza. Take a look at the Dhammapada - where's the mumbo jumbo in
that? It's instructions and teachings are perfectly clear (putting
br/Joe,br/br/How do you know insight only goes so far? Vipassana means
'to see things as they really are'. How much further would you like to/need to
go? br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone
br/Joe,br/br/No insult taken! br/br/Yes, of course. If insight is
left on the cushion and not integrated into daily life then it's not true
insight. Same with satori, I would think. br/br/Remember, Vipassana is
simply insight into impermanence and cause and effect. Everything else flows
from
Exactly!br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone
Upaya!br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone
Edgar,br/br/Yes.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for
iPhone
Edgar,br/br/No worries - I always consider what you say before rejecting it
out of hand! ; )br/br/I don't think people here are closed minded as you
imagine. I don't follow all the things either Joe or Bill! say either, but I
like the way they say them. br/br/Mikebr/br/br/br/br/Sent from
Well, you'd know all about that. ; )br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for
iPhone
Merle,br/br/When I see a tree something gives rise to my
perception.br/br/In terms of Buddhism, this sentence is probably the most
important one in the article you posted. Getting involved in discussions of
metaphysics does nothing towards ending suffering and probably just gets us
going
br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone
Merle,br/br/Yes, that's correct, but you can also perceive things
neutrally, too (in fact, most things are). If the mind is neutral then it's
because it has perceived things neutrally or equanimously. Perception is just
one part of the totality that is the mind (relatively speaking, of course,
br/Edgar,br/br/Eh? What did you not understand about my post? It's an
analogy, its not meant to be taken as literally the same thing! Knowing
Budweiser tastes like crap won't make you enlightened!br/br/Mikebr/Sent
from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone
br/Don't worry, he'll get there. Even Dogen favoured an interdependent
universe that depends on our actions to determine its causal structure. It is
possible to jump off that roundabout, but it's not by denying cause and effect
(the Fox koan) as illusion.br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone
Bill!, br/br/There are many different terms for the same thing. The most
well known in the Buddhist lexicon is 'dependent origination', but equally you
might come across 'dependent arising', inter pendent co-arising, 'conditioned
arising' and other such terms. They just mean that everything
br/Bill!,br/br/I think the first thing that I have to make clear is that
I'm not talking about 'Buddhism'. I'm following the Buddha Dharma and let's not
forget that the last words of Buddha were to investigate for yourself his
teachings. I'm not following dogma, but the things I've experienced
Bill!,br/br/Ahh, here we go again! I notice you wrote that I'm talking
about Buddhism not zen [lower case 'z']. This is *your* idiosyncratic
interpretation and is out of step with every writer on the subject including
all the Patriarchs and Dogen. Lower case zen is not something outside of Zen
Edgar, br/br/I'm not surprised.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from
Yahoo! Mail for iPhone
Chris, br/br/Which is also similar to Carl Sagan's point about needing to
go all the way back to the Big Bang to make the ingredients to make an apple
pie.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone
Bill!,br/br/I think I'm starting to understand where our paths cross in all
this (I hope!). Traditional Buddhism uses the sutras and teachings (most
notably The Four Noble Truths and the Eight-Fold Path) to Liberation. Zen views
these methods as potential hindrances to Awakening (being the
Merle,br/br/One can be one's own teacher, but it's not usually very
successful, is it? Besides what you are teaching yourself is not Zen - at least
not the Zen as taught in the temples of Japan and China. Why not just call it
another name? br/br/Mikebr/br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone
Merle,br/br/If you have never practiced Zen with a teacher and have no
grasp of the history of Zen (from Indian Mahayana Buddhism to Chinese C'han to
Japanese Zen), then how do you know you are manifesting Buddha Nature as taught
by these traditions? Maybe you're mistaking your 'Zen' for a
br/I also sent him a set of instructions on how to make the stairs, but I
don't think he trusts the 'Made in India' product'br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent
from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone
Merle San,br/br/bet ya a japanese sake that i'd beat you hands down on
the competition stakes as to who is more zen ...br/br/Well, if you
were into zen before I was br/even born is your argument for winning,
then my I can show you my Original Face before your mother was born trumps
Bill!,br/br/I think Zen and awakening to Buddha Nature transcend the
Buddhist teachings. But by the same token that's exactly what the Buddhist
teachings themselves point to! I don't think it's a question of mixing the two
traditions (Joe's concern), but either approach appeals to different
Merle,br/br/I would remain silent on this subject because you are going to
start Zen meditation and talking about my primary practice of meditation
(Vipassana) could just muddy the waters for you. However, your question asks
for a comparison between different traditions of meditation so I will
Edgar,br/br/What did I get wrong?
Specifically.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone
br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone
br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone
William,br/br/What difference does it make? Well, the alternative then
could be its no problem if you scratch your arse and pick your nose while
sitting zazen. Then again, why sit zazen? How about sitting with your back
against the wall or bringing your favourite bean bag to sit on. Come to
Edgar, br/ br/I'm not projecting anything. I just read your
posts.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone
br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone
William,br/br/Depends if you want to follow the Zen path or some other
tradition. Posture *is* important in this tradition. The mind is not something
found in the brain which hovers somewhere above the body. Your posture will
affect your mind as well as indicate what is going on on your
Edgar,br/br/Will it be about a new tradition? 'Zedgar', perhaps? ;
)br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone
William,br/br/What I'm saying is that there is a good reason why formal Zen
Buddhist practice uses certain postures in its traditions. If you want to mix
it up and dilute it with other practices then fine. But don't call it Zen
Buddhist practice. br/br/I practice Vipassana more than I do Zen.
br/Bill!,br/br/I'm sure you'd agree that you're just as likely to awaken
to Buddha Nature while sitting on the toilet as you are while sitting on the
cushion. But that's not the point. A glimpse of Buddha Nature is just an
initiation or invitation to continue living the Dharma. Without
Edgar,br/br/It's not thinking about it - its just continually correcting
you.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone
br/Edgar,br/br/Does this ring a bell? It was less than a week
ago:br/br/ Of course if you understood how to realize Buddha Nature
IN the world of forms AS a manifestation of it you could make that
24/7...br/ br/ That's my continual
pointbr/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for
Merle,br/br/You'll notice I put if possible in brackets. The reason for
an upright spine will become obvious when you start meditating. It has nothing
to do with enlightenment other than it supports the body and stops it from
becoming tired and sore, which is a huge distraction while trying to
br/Merle,br/br/It's also possible to practice mindfulness while reading
posts.br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone
br/Edgar,br/br/Untrained minds, indeed.br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent
from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone
Merle,br/br/A person with a crooked spine or no hands or feet learns to
incorporate that into their practice. It's not a question of overcoming it, but
integrating it and accepting it. But we all have our own 'handicaps'. All of
us. That's why retreats/sessions can be so useful. By meditating
Merle,br/br/You don't understand irony?br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent
from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone
Joe,br/br/One thing I've come to appreciate from my Vipassana practice is
how it's not so much 'body and mind', but body/mind. The body affects the mind
and the mind affects the body. Even memories are contained within different
parts of the body as people with PTSD will testify. It always
Edgar,br/br/So you're saying that that you *do* experience Buddha Nature
24/7 and that my quoting you as such was not spreading rumours or careless?
Apology accepted.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone
Edgar,br/br/I've already said that here that Buddha never taught learnt or
taught something called Buddhism. But he did rediscover the Dharma. He also had
the best teachers in India teach him meditation techniques before his
enlightenment. But the key point here is THAT HE WENT AROUND INDIA
Edgar,br/br/Now we're getting somewhere! So are you saying you don't
practice Zen Buddhism, but experience Buddha Nature
24/7?br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone
Joe, br/br/They're both the only mudras I know, too! br/br/I do
remember reading somewhere that people can perform spontaneous mudras when in
ecstatic states of samadhi. Interesting subject but not one I know much
about.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone
br/Edgar,br/br/But if you don't practice Zen, don't study Zen, and have
no Zen teacher and come from no Zen lineage,...how the hell do you know you're
living Zen? Did you look it up on wiki? The fact that you claim to experience
Buddha Nature 24/7 highlights your delusional
br/Edgar,br/br/How you hold your hands has *everything* to do with Zen.
Only it's not just confined to the hands (wasn't it Suzuki who said you can
tell an enlightened person by the way they walk?). As someone who experiences
Buddha Nature 24/7 aren't you mindful of what you are doing every
Edgar,br/br/ i have a habit of wringing my hands around and around each
other when i am stressed...br/br/Case in
point.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone
br/Edgar,br/br/I never said it was you. It doesn't need to be to make my
point.br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone
br/Edgar,br/br/If he was in a sperm bank and he was making a deposit then
perhaps.br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone
Edgar,br/br/If you read my post carefully you'll see that I'm not talking
about hand position per se, nor am I restricting it to a hand mudra while in
zazen. I'm talking about while being mindful in day to day activities. Hands
that are wringing themselves while stressed or absent-mindedly
Edgar,br/br/Geez, I can't make it any simpler. If your nose is itching and
really needs scratching, then giving it a good pick with awareness could very
well be Zen. There will be mindfulness of what the fingers are doing. If you're
not being mindful, and you find yourself picking your nose
Joe,br/br/Spoil sport! Not much to argue with
there.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone
Edgar,br/br/Some are BAD to the bone. You're BAD to the marrow. ;
)br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone
Edgar,br/br/Yep. Been practicing since the 20th century.
You?br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone
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