[Zen] practise
mike..i am in accord with joe... the muslim hatred is out of proportion... all religions teach right values.. it's the nitwits who do not practise but follow their own shit that causes the problems.. merle Joe, That sounds to me like you're white-washing the problem though. I could argue that the number of people being killed by AIDS is dwarfed by the numbers of people being killed by all other means, so lets not focus on it. Also, if there are a billion Muslims in the world and just 1% believe in the militant side of Islam, that's still a scary number of potential jihadists. I know how you might think this is beginning to sound, but I can assure you I'm not going down that road. I just think it it's neither realistic nor wise to pretend that all religions are equal (in terms of instigating hate and violence) and that this isn't a discussion that needs to be had. Just try wear a t-shirt mocking Mohamed (as opposed to Jesus or Buddha or Krishna etc) and see how real this shit gets. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Joe desert_woodwor...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] The False I and the Real I - Eckhart Tolle Sent: Fri, May 24, 2013 5:48:40 AM Mike, Can't speak about elsewhere, but in USA, it's so-called Christians who commit most of the crimes, whether violent, white-collar, corporate, government, or drug-trafficking related. Terrorists have higher profile press coverage, though, disproportionate to the number of crimes they commit and to the number of people they kill and maim. Most of the crazed mass-murdering shooters in USA have been young white males on a regimen of psychoactive drugs, to date. And I think ordinary Influenza virus kills more people per year in USA than AIDs nowadays, and AIDs still gets the greater Press. Even more die in road accidents than both combined. Different things craze different people: for some it's twisted Islam and hatred; for others, it's twisted Christianity, and murdering of Abortion Clinic personnel to preserve fetuses not wanted to be brought to term. --Joe uerusuboyo@... wrote: Joe, But when it comes to criminals committing criminal acts, why is it that when a religion is cited by the perpetrator it's nearly always Islam? I'm not attacking Muslims (they're usually the victims - especially women) - just the religious idea of Islam.Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
[Zen] practise
mike..have you googled koran...?...merle Joe, But when it comes to criminals committing criminal acts, why is it that when a religion is cited by the perpetrator it's nearly always Islam? I'm not attacking Muslims (they're usually the victims - especially women) - just the religious idea of Islam. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Joe desert_woodwor...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] The False I and the Real I - Eckhart Tolle Sent: Fri, May 24, 2013 4:06:49 AM Mike, Not a Muslim. A criminal. --Joe (sometime, or insipient, Sufi) uerusuboyo@... wrote: Joe, You're too kind. Unfortunately I'm still taking too many day-trip excursions into the Kleshas to be considered the real thing (Don't ask me about my reaction to that British soldier who was decapitated by a Muslim on a London street yesterday!)...
[Zen] practise
mike..the muslim who was vile and practised violence in england. he is not religious he is following his own path.. for starters he went against the law of the land...he committed a crime... he might be muslim but the so are the jews in palestine and look what they are doing? religion..nothing to do with it merle Mike, Not a Muslim. A criminal. --Joe (sometime, or insipient, Sufi) uerusuboyo@... wrote: Joe, You're too kind. Unfortunately I'm still taking too many day-trip excursions into the Kleshas to be considered the real thing (Don't ask me about my reaction to that British soldier who was decapitated by a Muslim on a London street yesterday!)...
RE: [Zen] practise
Merle,br/br/You've written 3 similar posts, so I'll answer all of hem in this post. You say these crimes have nothing to do with religion. Yet the Jews in Palestine cite the Torah as giving them the authority to take the land. The 9/11 hi-jackers completely believed they were going to paradise for their action. The Christian bombers of abortion clinics believe they are saving the life and souls of future babies by killing abortionists. To say these acts (as just a tiny example) are nothing to do with religion is just blind to the facts.br/br/Is Islam the worse (in terms of violence) of the religions? I'd say a resounding yes! to that question. Which other religion sanctions stoning people for blasphemy and which religious adherents *still* look to their religious text to justify killing those who leave their religion? There is only one - Islam. br/br/There are 109 passages in the Koran that call believers to fight disbelievers. Here's a few:br/br/br/Quran (2:191-193) - And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries. In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did). The use of the word persecution by some Muslim translators is thus disingenuous (the actual Muslim words for persecution - idtihad - and oppression - a variation of z-l-m - do not appear in the verse). The actual Arabic comes from fitna which can mean disbelief, or the disorder that results from unbelief or temptation. Taken as a whole, the context makes clear that violence is being authorized until religion is for Allah - ie. unbelievers desist in their unbelief.br/br/ br/Quran (4:74) - Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward. The martyrs of Islam are unlike the early Christians, led meekly to the slaughter. These Muslims are killed in battle, as they attempt to inflict death and destruction for the cause of Allah. Here is the theological basis for today's suicide bombers.br/br/Quran (5:33) - The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisementbr/br/ br/Quran (8:12) - I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle.br/ br/ br/Quran (9:29) - Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. People of the Book refers to Christians and Jews. According to this verse, they are to be violently subjugated, with the sole justification being their religious status. This was one of the final revelations from Allah and it set in motion the tenacious military expansion, in which Muhammad's companions managed to conquer two-thirds of the Christian world in the next 100 years. Islam is intended to dominate all other people and faiths.br/br/br/br/br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] practise
, with the sole justification being their religious status. This was one of the final revelations from Allah and it set in motion the tenacious military expansion, in which Muhammad's companions managed to conquer two-thirds of the Christian world in the next 100 years. Islam is intended to dominate all other people and faiths. Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: [Zen] practise Sent: Fri, May 24, 2013 6:39:50 AM mike..the muslim who was vile and practised violence in england. he is not religious he is following his own path.. for starters he went against the law of the land...he committed a crime... he might be muslim but the so are the jews in palestine and look what they are doing? religion..nothing to do with it merle Mike, Not a Muslim. A criminal. --Joe (sometime, or insipient, Sufi) uerusuboyo@... wrote: Joe, You're too kind. Unfortunately I'm still taking too many day-trip excursions into the Kleshas to be considered the real thing (Don't ask me about my reaction to that British soldier who was decapitated by a Muslim on a London street yesterday!)...
Re: [Zen] practise
Merle,br/br/I.don't know how I could make my point any clearer, but here goes.br/br/If the Koran is no different to any other religious book and Islam is just he same as any other religion, then why don't we see Jains strapping suicide-bombs to their bodies? Why aren't the Amish stoning adulterers? Where are the members of the Baha'i faith who have hacked the head off a non-believer? The Anglican ministers recruiting young people to become suicide bombers? The Hare Krishnas killing members for leaving? There may well be some universal or generic factors in the various religions (such as faith), but how anyone can claim that all religions are the same (in terms of their message of violence and hate) astounds me! Show me the same hateful passages in the Bhagavad Gita, Dhamapada or I Ching.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] practise
Mike, Merle, Joe, et al... IMO the 'Big Three' monotheistic religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) all are based on the premise that they have the ear of the one and only god and everyone who doesn't accept that is wrong and going to hell. That makes intolerance and mistreatment of non-believers very, very easy. I could quote passages out of Leviticus in the Old Testament which are just as horrendous as those quoted in the Koran. Also I think these 'Big Three' religions are constantly fighting each other because they all come from the same source, belief in Yahweh, Jehovah or Allah which sure seems to me to be the same god. I really don't see a dime's worth of difference between any of these, and their history is a history of violence, murder, killing and wars. Of course the Buddhist monks in Myanmar haven't been making the Buddhist religion look any less violent either. I think religions in general foster an 'us versus them' attitude, but that's much more pronounced in monotheistic religions that have to maintain they literally have the 'keys to the kingdom', in other words are custodians to the only way to salvation. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote: Merle,br/br/I.don't know how I could make my point any clearer, but here goes.br/br/If the Koran is no different to any other religious book and Islam is just he same as any other religion, then why don't we see Jains strapping suicide-bombs to their bodies? Why aren't the Amish stoning adulterers? Where are the members of the Baha'i faith who have hacked the head off a non-believer? The Anglican ministers recruiting young people to become suicide bombers? The Hare Krishnas killing members for leaving? There may well be some universal or generic factors in the various religions (such as faith), but how anyone can claim that all religions are the same (in terms of their message of violence and hate) astounds me! Show me the same hateful passages in the Bhagavad Gita, Dhamapada or I Ching.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] practise
Bill!,br/br/Ok, so you've narrowed my 'all religions are not the same' to just the three mono-theistic ones. Fair enough, but does that you mean you agree that those other religions I mentioned are nothing like Islam regarding messages of hate and violence?br/br/Comparing those 3 Abrahamic still leaves Islam in the same position of being the most overtly violent. There was no new Messiah in the Koran to at least make the stories of killing infidels (and other transgressors) questionable (as with Jesus and the Old Testament). In fact, the Koran doesn't compare to the Bible because most of the verses are open-ended and aren't tied to any particular historical story. Whereas you and Merle say it's bad people that use the religion as an excuse - I'd say its just as likely that good people are swayed by bad ideology.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] practise
yes bill...that is just as you say...take note mike..merle Mike, Merle, Joe, et al... IMO the 'Big Three' monotheistic religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) all are based on the premise that they have the ear of the one and only god and everyone who doesn't accept that is wrong and going to hell. That makes intolerance and mistreatment of non-believers very, very easy. I could quote passages out of Leviticus in the Old Testament which are just as horrendous as those quoted in the Koran. Also I think these 'Big Three' religions are constantly fighting each other because they all come from the same source, belief in Yahweh, Jehovah or Allah which sure seems to me to be the same god. I really don't see a dime's worth of difference between any of these, and their history is a history of violence, murder, killing and wars. Of course the Buddhist monks in Myanmar haven't been making the Buddhist religion look any less violent either. I think religions in general foster an 'us versus them' attitude, but that's much more pronounced in monotheistic religions that have to maintain they literally have the 'keys to the kingdom', in other words are custodians to the only way to salvation. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote: Merle,br/br/I.don't know how I could make my point any clearer, but here goes.br/br/If the Koran is no different to any other religious book and Islam is just he same as any other religion, then why don't we see Jains strapping suicide-bombs to their bodies? Why aren't the Amish stoning adulterers? Where are the members of the Baha'i faith who have hacked the head off a non-believer? The Anglican ministers recruiting young people to become suicide bombers? The Hare Krishnas killing members for leaving? There may well be some universal or generic factors in the various religions (such as faith), but how anyone can claim that all religions are the same (in terms of their message of violence and hate) astounds me! Show me the same hateful passages in the Bhagavad Gita, Dhamapada or I Ching.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] practise
Take note of what, Merle? I've already addressed this post of Bill!'s in a previous post. br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] practise
Mike, I'd say there are people who for any number of reasons want to do bad things and some justify their actions with religion. As we've discussed before I think the only difference between today's Muslim extremists and Christian extremists is about 150 years; and maybe 50 or less for Jewish extremists. And of course the real severe extremists are alive and well in all of these religions - and evidently Buddhism too. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote: Bill!,br/br/Ok, so you've narrowed my 'all religions are not the same' to just the three mono-theistic ones. Fair enough, but does that you mean you agree that those other religions I mentioned are nothing like Islam regarding messages of hate and violence?br/br/Comparing those 3 Abrahamic still leaves Islam in the same position of being the most overtly violent. There was no new Messiah in the Koran to at least make the stories of killing infidels (and other transgressors) questionable (as with Jesus and the Old Testament). In fact, the Koran doesn't compare to the Bible because most of the verses are open-ended and aren't tied to any particular historical story. Whereas you and Merle say it's bad people that use the religion as an excuse - I'd say its just as likely that good people are swayed by bad ideology.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] practise
br/Bill!,br/br/Sorry Bill!, but I just think your argument avoids the reality of the situation. Of course there are bad people who will use religion as an excuse for their actions. But what about the ones who really - and I mean really- believe their actions are what their God demands as per the scriptures? If all the books are the same why is it that every stoning, honour-killing, hanging of rape victims, suicide-bombing is carried out by a Koran-quoting Muslim? These people are not necessarily bad people, but ordinary people convinced that this is what God commands. All this 'white man's burden' style apologetics is simply missing what is plainly happening in front of us every day. Again, I say wear a t-shirt mocking any religious icon outside the corresponding place of worship and, at worst, you might get some disapproving looks. Do the same with Mohamed and you'll be lucky to make breakfast. There's a good reason our 'freedom of expression' loving media don't publish cartoons of Islamic figures - not for fear of causing offence - but out of fear of losing their lives. The religion of peace, indeed..br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] practise
Bill!, Tribalism has been the history of Humans. And with tribalism, violence and the old us-versus-them has also been a key part of our heritage. Some religions embrace violence and killing, and use it for religion's ends, in spreading the religion, and to make a display of righteousness against Infidels. Some religions attempt to dissolve a tendency toward violence by dissolving tribalism. They do this by showing to each member that the tribe is not a collection of individuals, but instead that the individuals all partake of the consciousness of the tribe. That is a radical difference. I think the Zen sangha is tribal, but it is not opposed to other sanghas because we recognize that there is an even larger tribe: all the instantiations of Buddha Nature. All the 10,000 Things are members of our tribe with us (and, ha ha, this allows us to say that all our fights are just internal squabbles ...which they are). ;-) Christianity does this larger inclusion too, in its teaching that we are all Children of God, and that all things are His Creations. Thus, we cannot/should not fight each other tooth and nail, because we would then besmirch the intent and substance of God Himself. And this is yet different from the peaceful-seeming Nature religions of the Native American tribes. It's well known that those tribes were warlike against other tribes. They competed for territory, for hunting ranges, and for women-folk. Their religions' Great Spirit may not have been the SAME Great Spirit, from tribe to tribe, I don't know. And each tribe had its OWN origin-stories, as originating from its own Tribal God. So, the American Indians were free to compete and slaughter each other, probably with the Gods' consent. Their tribe was not as extensive as the tribe of the Zen sangha. Islam is not only a religion of a tribe, but it is a fractionated religion among fractionated tribes, the worst situation of all. I sing, with the Grateful Dead's Jerry Captain-Trips Garcia, the line: It's a shame those boys can't be more copacetic. --Joe Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Mike, Merle, Joe, et al... . . . I think religions in general foster an 'us versus them' attitude, but that's much more pronounced in monotheistic religions that have to maintain they literally have the 'keys to the kingdom', in other words are custodians to the only way to salvation. ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] practise needs to be reminded every day.... it is said and it is good
it's okay joe...love merle xx Merle, I mean to say that I hope I am not the ONLY one here, or otherwise, who says Practice, just practice. *If* I say that. Yes, I think I do. It can't hurt. In the long run. --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: merle Merle, Hey, I'm not the *only* one! I hope! ;-) --Joe
