Re: [Zim-wiki] Let's ride the anti-tomboy wave!

[Dotan Cohen]

>> It would be valid if Zim notebooks were single files, that would open
>> in Zim when clicked on.
>>
>>
> But then you couldn't select a folder, you would have to send the whole
> notebook. I share my computer tricks with some pals, my work with others.

I put computer tricks in one notebook, work in another. You could
expand the argument to have each heading as a separate file so that
you could send it. Nonsense, I won't discuss it further. There is no
need to anyway, the current behaviour allows configuration so I can at
least enjoy the software as I see fit.



-- 
Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il

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Re: [Zim-wiki] Let's ride the anti-tomboy wave!

[Pablo Angulo]

Dotan Cohen escribió:
>> * right click on a folder and "send to email recipient". Both thunar and
>> nautilus compress the folder and send it by email. The receiver opens
>> the attachment with the default application for compressed files, drags
>> and drops onto his zim notes folder and voila, my notes have been merged
>> with hers. That's a power trick for the average Joe.
>> 
>
> It would be valid if Zim notebooks were single files, that would open
> in Zim when clicked on.
>
>   
But then you couldn't select a folder, you would have to send the whole
notebook. I share my computer tricks with some pals, my work with others.
>> * Go to the Documents folder, select all pictures, use nautilus-script
>> to reduce the resolution of all of them
>> 
>
> This has nothing to do with Zim.
>
>   
This has to do with the fact that zim files are plain files, not
"notebooks" in a special zim format with embedded images.
>> * Go to a folder, select all notes, open with geany, do global replace
>> of a word in all the notes
>>
>> 
>
> This has nothing to do with Zim.
>   
This has to do with the fact that zim files are plain files, not
"notebooks" in a special zim format with text scattered around the document.

Sure, the four tricks we came up with can be done in a hidden folder,
but you asked "why would the user want to see this data?", and these are
examples.

The only matter here is what hidden folders are for. I'll save you some
time: it's not in the gnome HIG:

http://developer.*gnome*.org/projects/gup/hig/2.0/hig-2.0.pdf

Now Jaap thinks they should be for configuration, not data. This is a
general principle that is not intrinsically better than the contrary, it
has only the meaning we give to it. But people takes decisions based on
this principles, like hiding the folders, which makes it more difficult
to my fellow joe to find the notebook folder I asked him for.

We need to follow guidelines if thousands of people develop interacting
software independently. And placing data in the configuration folders is
still the exception, not the rule.

Regards

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Re: [Zim-wiki] Let's ride the anti-tomboy wave!

[Dotan Cohen]

> But there is exactly my point, settings, profiles and caches go in
> hidden directories, data does not. In my view settings are more or
> less expandable - sure you do not want to loose them easily, but if
> you do you can re-create them fairly easily. Data on the other hand is
> much more valuable.
>

Are your email messages data? Where does Evolution store them?

Files that are meant to be opened from within a particular application
should not be visible in the file manager. If Zim notebooks were
single files as opposed to folders with many files inside, and these
single files could be clicked on then opened with Zim, then I would
understand the reasoning for keeping them visible. But as it stands,
the user has no reason to poke around in the Zim folder.


> I think the precedent for putting data in hidden folders was created
> by email clients. Probably this happened because the email was not
> considered stored data, but more like a cache of the data that lives
> on the server. I for one still like my email client to store emails
> under "~/Mail".
>

I see that you anticipated my reply! I should learn to read the whole
message first! However, would you argue that you are the typical user
in this regard? If Zim is meant only to scratch your itch, and it
would be fine if it is, then by all means make your preference the
default for the application. But if you identify that your personal
preference goes against established and expected behaviour, then make
your preference optional.

I really hope that I am not being rude, that is not my intent. I am
just trying to make Zim a good application for the average Joe. I
really appreciate your work and I respect your decisions.


> Yes I agree that good defaults make a program more user friendly. But
> hiding data from the user in my opinion does not.
>

The question is why would the user want to see this data? The only
argument that I have seen is for backup purposes, and if the user is
not backing up hidden directories then he is likely to loose a lot in
addition to his Zim notebooks. Email, Web browser bookmarks, all his
contacts and calendar, virtual machines, all his settings and
preferences, etc.


-- 
Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il

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Re: [Zim-wiki] Let's ride the anti-tomboy wave!

[Jaap Karssenberg]

On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 8:36 PM, Dotan Cohen wrote:
> We've been through that one and although I think that a hidden
> directory would be best (Because Zim is used to manipulate the data,
> not a file manager. Do you want your Firefox profile in a non-hidden
> directory? Your Gnome settings?) I accept your decision as the project
> developer. How about checking if a ~/Notes directory exists, if yes
> checking if it is or Zim origin, and if yes using it. If not, then
> either trying another sensible name (ZimNotes, maybe) or asking the
> user to select a name.

But there is exactly my point, settings, profiles and caches go in
hidden directories, data does not. In my view settings are more or
less expandable - sure you do not want to loose them easily, but if
you do you can re-create them fairly easily. Data on the other hand is
much more valuable.

I think the precedent for putting data in hidden folders was created
by email clients. Probably this happened because the email was not
considered stored data, but more like a cache of the data that lives
on the server. I for one still like my email client to store emails
under "~/Mail".

Yes I agree that good defaults make a program more user friendly. But
hiding data from the user in my opinion does not.

Regards,

Jaap

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Re: [Zim-wiki] Let's ride the anti-tomboy wave!

[Dotan Cohen]

> As discussed before I do not want to use a hidden directory by default. When
> we use a normal directory as default this might conflict with an existing
> directory of that name, so it becomes complex to define the right behavior.
> I like an application to leave me in control where my data goes.
>

We've been through that one and although I think that a hidden
directory would be best (Because Zim is used to manipulate the data,
not a file manager. Do you want your Firefox profile in a non-hidden
directory? Your Gnome settings?) I accept your decision as the project
developer. How about checking if a ~/Notes directory exists, if yes
checking if it is or Zim origin, and if yes using it. If not, then
either trying another sensible name (ZimNotes, maybe) or asking the
user to select a name.


> A wizard does not need to be complex. Maybe it should just say "Zim needs a
> folder to store your notes. Which folder do you want to use as your notebook
> ?" with a file selector and hide all the properties.
>

This would be good, but after Zim checks like I describe above.


-- 
Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il

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Re: [Zim-wiki] Let's ride the anti-tomboy wave!

[Dotan Cohen]

>> I think this is a good one. Anyone feel like designing a wizard (or
>> "assistant" in gtk jargon) for first time users ? It should just explain
>> what a notebook is and ask for the location to store notes and other
>> properties with some meaningful defaults or select an existing notebook.
>
>        Why not use the Almighty Default? :-)
>
>        Just create a default notebook (called "Notebook") and place it
> somewhere reasonable. You can warn users afterwards that you have already
> created a notebook such and such, but the main point is that they'll be able
> to start using Zim without answering "complex" questions. Most users won't
> care if their notebook is in "~/.zim", "~/.notebooks", or whatever. Just do
> it and let them start to play ASAP.
>

Yes!


-- 
Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il

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Re: [Zim-wiki] Let's ride the anti-tomboy wave!

[Dotan Cohen]

> Thanks for the nice discussion, although the topic sounds a bit like
> flame-bait... It is not my intention to compete with other project for
> competition sake - believe me if there is a project out there that satisfies
> my needs I will be glad to use their code instead of my ow. Would save a
> heck of a lot of time for me..
>

Not for competitions sake, but to get new users. New users is good for
every application except for KDE.


>> * however, tomboy works right out of the box, while the first screen of
>> zim, asking to configure a notebook, requires some thinking. It's not
>> easy to understand what's the Domuent Root, or how you want to use the
>> notebooks before yuou know what the application is for. Some casual
>> users might decide not to try the application. However, once the first
>> notebook is working, anyone can learn most of zim without reading a
>> manual. I'd even say it's easier than tomboy, because the toolbar has
>> more of the good staff.
>>
>
> I think this is a good one. Anyone feel like designing a wizard (or
> "assistant" in gtk jargon) for first time users ? It should just explain
> what a notebook is and ask for the location to store notes and other
> properties with some meaningful defaults or select an existing notebook.
>
> After creating the first one, the "open another notebook" menu item would
> still trigger the current dialog. But the "add" button in that dialog could
> trigger the wizard again.
>

I think that this point needs addressing, too, but having good
defaults is better than poping up a wizard. I personally like when
software asks me on first use how I'd like it configured, but I know
from taking an interest in usability that most end users do not
appreciate that.

-- 
Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il

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Re: [Zim-wiki] Let's ride the anti-tomboy wave!

[Pablo Angulo]

How about the following?:

* Implement a "migrate notebook" feature, which consists of "move the
files"+"adjust config files"
* Choose a directory like ~/Notes. If it is taken, choose ~/zim, or
~/Notes-012131231, or whatever that is not taken. Place there the first
notebook.
* Let the first note have some text telling something about zim,
editable as a regular note, and with clear instructions on how to
migrate the current notebook.

Ideas, comments?


Vlastimil Ott escribió:
> Dne Út 30. června 2009 19:22:10 Jaap Karssenberg napsal(a):
>   
>> A wizard does not need to be complex. Maybe it should just say "Zim
>> needs a folder to store your notes. Which folder do you want to use as
>> your notebook ?" with a file selector and hide all the properties.
>> 
>
> What about "Zim data - $user"? I think the question is redundant... There 
> could be a simple "Did you 
> know...?" when running for the first time - we can collect some tips 
> together. Something about 
> folders (directories), notebooks, links, namespaces and so on.
> For the very first start I would prefer "run'n'write" - no questions, no 
> wizards. Just one click and 
> write. 
>
> (Of course, I would never use it, because I'm not first time user... :-D)
>
>   

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Re: [Zim-wiki] Let's ride the anti-tomboy wave!

[Vlastimil Ott]

Dne Út 30. června 2009 19:22:10 Jaap Karssenberg napsal(a):
> A wizard does not need to be complex. Maybe it should just say "Zim
> needs a folder to store your notes. Which folder do you want to use as
> your notebook ?" with a file selector and hide all the properties.

What about "Zim data - $user"? I think the question is redundant... There could 
be a simple "Did you 
know...?" when running for the first time - we can collect some tips together. 
Something about 
folders (directories), notebooks, links, namespaces and so on.
For the very first start I would prefer "run'n'write" - no questions, no 
wizards. Just one click and 
write. 

(Of course, I would never use it, because I'm not first time user... :-D)

-- 

Vlastimil Ott
www.e-ott.info

Už jste četli nové číslo našeho magazínu?
http://www.openmagazin.cz

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Re: [Zim-wiki] Let's ride the anti-tomboy wave!

[Jaap Karssenberg]

Roberto Suarez Soto wrote:

El día Tue, 30 Jun 2009 17:52:49 +0200, Jaap Karssenberg
 escribía:

  
I think this is a good one. Anyone feel like designing a wizard (or 
"assistant" in gtk jargon) for first time users ? It should just explain 
what a notebook is and ask for the location to store notes and other 
properties with some meaningful defaults or select an existing notebook.



Why not use the Almighty Default? :-)

Just create a default notebook (called "Notebook") and place it
somewhere reasonable. You can warn users afterwards that you have already
created a notebook such and such, but the main point is that they'll be able
to start using Zim without answering "complex" questions. Most users won't
care if their notebook is in "~/.zim", "~/.notebooks", or whatever. Just do
it and let them start to play ASAP



As discussed before I do not want to use a hidden directory by default. 
When we use a normal directory as default this might conflict with an 
existing directory of that name, so it becomes complex to define the 
right behavior. I like an application to leave me in control where my 
data goes.


A wizard does not need to be complex. Maybe it should just say "Zim 
needs a folder to store your notes. Which folder do you want to use as 
your notebook ?" with a file selector and hide all the properties.


Regards,

Jaap

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Re: [Zim-wiki] Let's ride the anti-tomboy wave!

[Roberto Suarez Soto]

El día Tue, 30 Jun 2009 17:52:49 +0200, Jaap Karssenberg
 escribía:

> I think this is a good one. Anyone feel like designing a wizard (or 
> "assistant" in gtk jargon) for first time users ? It should just explain 
> what a notebook is and ask for the location to store notes and other 
> properties with some meaningful defaults or select an existing notebook.

Why not use the Almighty Default? :-)

Just create a default notebook (called "Notebook") and place it
somewhere reasonable. You can warn users afterwards that you have already
created a notebook such and such, but the main point is that they'll be able
to start using Zim without answering "complex" questions. Most users won't
care if their notebook is in "~/.zim", "~/.notebooks", or whatever. Just do
it and let them start to play ASAP.

-- 
Roberto Suarez Soto Allenta Consulting
r...@allenta.com   www.allenta.com
   +34 881 922 600

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Re: [Zim-wiki] Let's ride the anti-tomboy wave!

[Jaap Karssenberg]

Hi all,

Thanks for the nice discussion, although the topic sounds a bit like 
flame-bait... It is not my intention to compete with other project for 
competition sake - believe me if there is a project out there that 
satisfies my needs I will be glad to use their code instead of my ow. 
Would save a heck of a lot of time for me..


Pablo Angulo wrote:

* however, tomboy works right out of the box, while the first screen of
zim, asking to configure a notebook, requires some thinking. It's not
easy to understand what's the Domuent Root, or how you want to use the
notebooks before yuou know what the application is for. Some casual
users might decide not to try the application. However, once the first
notebook is working, anyone can learn most of zim without reading a
manual. I'd even say it's easier than tomboy, because the toolbar has
more of the good staff.
  


I think this is a good one. Anyone feel like designing a wizard (or 
"assistant" in gtk jargon) for first time users ? It should just explain 
what a notebook is and ask for the location to store notes and other 
properties with some meaningful defaults or select an existing notebook.


After creating the first one, the "open another notebook" menu item 
would still trigger the current dialog. But the "add" button in that 
dialog could trigger the wizard again.


Beni Cherniavsky wrote:

Just now noticed an important one: tomboy automatically turns any text
that is a name of a note into a link!  This removes some flexibility
but makes linking much simpler to understand and easier to manage.
Could we have it in Zim?


In fact we had it some time back as an experimental feature (hidden 
option to enable). Technically it is still in there, but haven't been 
tested for ages. In short I did not get any more request for this 
feature after the first hack at it.


Would not be that hard to implement as a plugin that functions as a 
filter when loading a page. Just list pages in the same namespace, match 
those names in the page and create a link. Only thing is that links 
update different when moving / deleting a page - but that does not have 
to be a problem.


Not top of my list, but if anyone wants to work on it let me know.


Regards,

Jaap

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Re: [Zim-wiki] Let's ride the anti-tomboy wave!

[Svenn Are Bjerkem]

2009/6/28 Dotan Cohen :
> I have not used the Tomboy software, but it appears to be "a personal
> wiki" which is just Zim's niche. Is anyone familiar with this
> software? Where does it lack compared to Zim? What features does it
> have that Zim is missing?

Answering that question in a proper way would require me to work with
tomboy for more than half a year as that is normally the time when I
start forgetting about the first things I put into such a system. Then
search functions and keywords and links etc. start to show how well
they are implemented. Zim has now been used for more than that period
and it still stands out compared to some of the other tools that I
have tried so far.
* Starts quickly
* Reposts quickly even after other heavy work (try that with a java app)
* Versioning make it possible to maintain a history track of a page
* Documents and Notes can be placed in different trees

As I use zim as my digital memory, it is important to be able to
search things quickly and to quickly navigate between the hits which
Zim solves nicely by showing a separate window with the hits. The TODO
functionality is also working to my taste even though both search and
TODO could highlight the hit and put it few lines from the top to see
text before the hit as well as text following the hit.

What should be improved:
* Printing from Zim, lists and indented text does not show up in html
the same way.
* The export to a processing system like Latex has so far not given
good results for multiple pages
* More than one format for a piece of text. bold italic, strike
italic, strike bold etc.
* Moving of complex note hierarchies not always successful getting
data that is moved properly renamed.

>
> Zim can be marketed at "the Tomboy alternative" if it is done right. Start 
> here:
> http://news.slashdot.org/story/09/06/27/1759255/Richard-Stallman-Says-No-To-Mono

Have been reading some of the comments regarding this and from GPL
point of view he is right as always. Cloning existing proprietary
solutions always bring risk of infringing patents. The pragmatic
solution of bringing C# to other platforms than Windows is good for
platform independent computing, but may be a boomerang in case
Microsoft does something evil. And Microsoft has a record for doing
that. Most people consider this a danger just as big as RIAA getting
to their mp3 collection.

-- 
Svenn

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Re: [Zim-wiki] Let's ride the anti-tomboy wave!

[Dotan Cohen]

> Just now noticed an important one: tomboy automatically turns any text
> that is a name of a note into a link!  This removes some flexibility
> but makes linking much simpler to understand and easier to manage.
> Could we have it in Zim?
>

Please no! I have some page names that are common words, it would
drive me crazy!


> The most important one to me: Zim stores your text in plain files with
> simple format!  Tomboy uses XML (a rather clean one) and the files are
> named like "99de74ca-b790-4094-bbbf-a254cbbadec1.note".
>

Nice catch!

-- 
Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il

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Re: [Zim-wiki] Let's ride the anti-tomboy wave!

[Matt Fivash]

Does Zim and Tomboy compete is any meaningful way ??  Little yellow sticky
notes (small and with a short time duration) and a notebook / journal
(longer in both time and length) might be seen to fill different needs on a
desktop.

I use both, and find a place for both.  It would be kinda nice to put a
little yellow
Tomboy sticky note in my Zim journal sometimes ... although copy/paste will
do the trick.

enjoy

--matt



On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 10:40 AM, Beni Cherniavsky wrote:

> On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 16:10, Dotan Cohen wrote:
> >> * tomboy doesn't have any feature that zim hasn't (ok, it has one: you
> >> can choose text size)
> >>
> Just now noticed an important one: tomboy automatically turns any text
> that is a name of a note into a link!  This removes some flexibility
> but makes linking much simpler to understand and easier to manage.
> Could we have it in Zim?
>
> >> * zim has a lot of useful features that tomboy hasn't (subfolders,
> >> backlinks, an equation editor, a calendar, a TODO list, embedded images,
> >> screen captures, version control)
> >>
> > I will try to mention those on Tomboy discussions, of which there are
> many.
> >
> The most important one to me: Zim stores your text in plain files with
> simple format!  Tomboy uses XML (a rather clean one) and the files are
> named like "99de74ca-b790-4094-bbbf-a254cbbadec1.note".
>
> --
> Beni 
>
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Re: [Zim-wiki] Let's ride the anti-tomboy wave!

[Beni Cherniavsky]

On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 16:10, Dotan Cohen wrote:
>> * tomboy doesn't have any feature that zim hasn't (ok, it has one: you
>> can choose text size)
>>
Just now noticed an important one: tomboy automatically turns any text
that is a name of a note into a link!  This removes some flexibility
but makes linking much simpler to understand and easier to manage.
Could we have it in Zim?

>> * zim has a lot of useful features that tomboy hasn't (subfolders,
>> backlinks, an equation editor, a calendar, a TODO list, embedded images,
>> screen captures, version control)
>>
> I will try to mention those on Tomboy discussions, of which there are many.
>
The most important one to me: Zim stores your text in plain files with
simple format!  Tomboy uses XML (a rather clean one) and the files are
named like "99de74ca-b790-4094-bbbf-a254cbbadec1.note".

-- 
Beni 

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Re: [Zim-wiki] Let's ride the anti-tomboy wave!

[Pablo Angulo]

Dotan Cohen escribió:
>
> In the name of semantics I do prefer the Zim approach, but I can
> understand how less technical users might prefer a word-processor
> approach. This is something to thing about.
>
>   
Sure, the zim approach is plain better, I just noted a difference.
>> * however, tomboy works right out of the box, while the first screen of
>> zim, asking to configure a notebook, requires some thinking. It's not
>> easy to understand what's the Domuent Root, or how you want to use the
>> notebooks before yuou know what the application is for. Some casual
>> users might decide not to try the application. However, once the first
>> notebook is working, anyone can learn most of zim without reading a
>> manual. I'd even say it's easier than tomboy, because the toolbar has
>> more of the good staff.
>>
>> 
>
> I will file a bug on this. Is there any technical reason why Zim
> cannot chose good defaults and let the user override them in the
> preferences afterwards? Even if files have to be moved, that can be
> handled within Zim (or not, as Jaap insists on using non-hidden files
> in the interest of letting the user manipulate them with his file
> manager).
>   
Again, the zim way is perfectly fine for me. I didn't want to reply to
your email that zim is better is every way, and put my brain to think of
some tomboy advantages, but it wasn't easy.



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Re: [Zim-wiki] Let's ride the anti-tomboy wave!

[Dotan Cohen]

> * tomboy doesn't have any feature that zim hasn't (ok, it has one: you
> can choose text size)
>

In the name of semantics I do prefer the Zim approach, but I can
understand how less technical users might prefer a word-processor
approach. This is something to thing about.


> * zim has a lot of useful features that tomboy hasn't (subfolders,
> backlinks, an equation editor, a calendar, a TODO list, embedded images,
> screen captures, version control)
>

I will try to mention those on Tomboy discussions, of which there are many.


> * however, tomboy works right out of the box, while the first screen of
> zim, asking to configure a notebook, requires some thinking. It's not
> easy to understand what's the Domuent Root, or how you want to use the
> notebooks before yuou know what the application is for. Some casual
> users might decide not to try the application. However, once the first
> notebook is working, anyone can learn most of zim without reading a
> manual. I'd even say it's easier than tomboy, because the toolbar has
> more of the good staff.
>

I will file a bug on this. Is there any technical reason why Zim
cannot chose good defaults and let the user override them in the
preferences afterwards? Even if files have to be moved, that can be
handled within Zim (or not, as Jaap insists on using non-hidden files
in the interest of letting the user manipulate them with his file
manager).

-- 
Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il

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Re: [Zim-wiki] Let's ride the anti-tomboy wave!

[Pablo Angulo]

 Dotan, you're right. I like zim a hell of a lot more than this tomboy,
but if there's a discussion about not depending on mono, then we should
go promote zim.

  In short:
* tomboy doesn't have any feature that zim hasn't (ok, it has one: you
can choose text size)

* zim has a lot of useful features that tomboy hasn't (subfolders,
backlinks, an equation editor, a calendar, a TODO list, embedded images,
screen captures, version control)

* tomboy has some annoying bits (turn a word into a link and it will be
a link forever, you cannot choose your favourite applications for
opening links, the toolbar is less useful, the HIG way of changing
shortcuts doesn't work...)

* however, tomboy works right out of the box, while the first screen of
zim, asking to configure a notebook, requires some thinking. It's not
easy to understand what's the Domuent Root, or how you want to use the
notebooks before yuou know what the application is for. Some casual
users might decide not to try the application. However, once the first
notebook is working, anyone can learn most of zim without reading a
manual. I'd even say it's easier than tomboy, because the toolbar has
more of the good staff.

Regards

Dotan Cohen escribió:
> I have not used the Tomboy software, but it appears to be "a personal
> wiki" which is just Zim's niche. Is anyone familiar with this
> software? Where does it lack compared to Zim? What features does it
> have that Zim is missing?
>
> Zim can be marketed at "the Tomboy alternative" if it is done right. Start 
> here:
> http://news.slashdot.org/story/09/06/27/1759255/Richard-Stallman-Says-No-To-Mono
>
>   

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[Zim-wiki] Let's ride the anti-tomboy wave!

[Dotan Cohen]

I have not used the Tomboy software, but it appears to be "a personal
wiki" which is just Zim's niche. Is anyone familiar with this
software? Where does it lack compared to Zim? What features does it
have that Zim is missing?

Zim can be marketed at "the Tomboy alternative" if it is done right. Start here:
http://news.slashdot.org/story/09/06/27/1759255/Richard-Stallman-Says-No-To-Mono

-- 
Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il

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