Re: [ZION] Earthquake
After much pondering, Noel Bennion favored us with: John, Any earthshaking news from the northland? How bad was the earthquake where you are at? I didn't feel a thing. I don't think anyone here did. But that shouldn't be a surprise. Central Alaska is a lng way off from us. Your friend and brother, John W. Redelfs, [EMAIL PROTECTED] / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Earthquake
John,
Any earthshaking news from the northland? How bad was the earthquake where
you are at?
Noel
/
/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at ///
/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///
/
${list_promo}
RE: [ZION] "Life Everlasting" Duane S. Crowther
At 10:15 AM 11/3/2002, you wrote: Crowther's Life Everlasting is a genuine delight to me. Thanks for raising it to my attention. I thought it was a wonderful book when I first read it, more than thirty years ago. On reexamination, I find it to be even more relevant and edifying than the first view. Jim, Thanks for your directness and for refreshing my memory of this book. I remember the feeling now when I first read the book (must be, let's see, about 27 years ago). Looks like I'm going to have to reread it. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Guns, Germs and Steel
How about just thinking of things as tools? Science isn't in opposition to
religion except in the hands of ignorant atheists, as far as I'm concerned (and
there are plenty of them, to be sure). It's just a tool, a certain disciplined
way of looking at things, that's all. The confusion arises when one way of
looking at things uses a word which has a different meaning or connotation in a
different realm (like "truth" -- there's really no such concept in science. While
a scientist will use the term, he really means "useful", "consistent/predictive",
etc., not "true" in some ultimate sense as a philosopher or religious person
would use it).
"John W. Redelfs" wrote:
> After much pondering, Marc A. Schindler favored us with:
> > > Part of the reason I turned away from science to religion is because I
> > > despaired of learning anything with any certainty when the foremost
> > > authorities in almost every field disagree with fellow scientists about
> > > really basic things. I have a real need for at least some questions to
> > > have conclusive answers. Otherwise, life is just a constantly changing
> > > dream bound by no laws and consequently all over the map. I know very
> > > little "for sure," but what little I do know I have learned from the
> > > scriptures, the modern prophets, and the testimony of the Holy Ghost.
> > >
> >
> >It's always either/or, isn't it?
>
> Yes I have been accused with binary thinking. I confess that it is
> so. With me a thing is either true or false, good or bad, right or wrong,
> from God or from the devil, promoting freedom or promoting slavery. I'm
> just a black and white kind of guy. There are gray area to be sure, but
> they are gray only because of my own ignorance. If I were smart enough to
> figure them out or had enough information to do so, I would undoubtedly
> assign them their properly black or white status.
>
> John W. Redelfs[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> =
> To me, clowns aren't funny. In fact, they're kind of scary.
> I've wondered where this started and I think it goes back to
> the time I went to the circus, and a clown killed my dad.
> --Jack Handy
> =
> All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR
>
> /
> /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at ///
> /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///
> /
>
--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
The first duty of a university is to teach wisdom, not a trade; character, not
technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern world, but we dont want
a world of engineers. Sir Winston Churchill (1950)
Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.
/
/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at ///
/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///
/
${list_promo}
Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?
>Also, maybe our whole religious experience is self induced with naturally >occurring chemicals in our brains that make us wishy washy? Maybe the >whole thing is a joke? Maybe we don't even really exist. Would someone >pinch me please? >>I know I exist, but maybe you're a figment of my imagination . . . >>;-) That's kind of what I'm talking about. Maybe we are not even real and that all this has not come to pass. Perhaps our 60x Great Grand Father God is sitting on a cloud in yonder heaven and contemplating the future of one of his grandchildren (Eloheim) and the planet earth. How do we know we are real? This whole thing could be the day dreaming of a God who is looking at the future. The scriptures prove in the revelation saying "He lives" but how do we know that we really live? Ok, I'm going to go light a candle and some incense and say a little chant now. Ha ha ha heheh eahah ah a. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?
At 03:23 PM 11/3/02, Paul Osborne wrote: Also, maybe our whole religious experience is self induced with naturally occurring chemicals in our brains that make us wishy washy? Maybe the whole thing is a joke? Maybe we don't even really exist. Would someone pinch me please? I know I exist, but maybe you're a figment of my imagination . . . ;-) --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Guns, Germs and Steel
JWR confessed >I'm just a black and white kind of guy. Me too. And, I don't take prisoners. ;-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?
>Paul Osborne wrote: >--- >Maybe we don't even really exist. Would someone >pinch me please? >--- > >Sure, happy to-- > > OUCH!! You didn't have to do it so hard, you meanie. ;-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Guns, Germs and Steel
After much pondering, Marc A. Schindler favored us with: > Part of the reason I turned away from science to religion is because I > despaired of learning anything with any certainty when the foremost > authorities in almost every field disagree with fellow scientists about > really basic things. I have a real need for at least some questions to > have conclusive answers. Otherwise, life is just a constantly changing > dream bound by no laws and consequently all over the map. I know very > little "for sure," but what little I do know I have learned from the > scriptures, the modern prophets, and the testimony of the Holy Ghost. > It's always either/or, isn't it? Yes I have been accused with binary thinking. I confess that it is so. With me a thing is either true or false, good or bad, right or wrong, from God or from the devil, promoting freedom or promoting slavery. I'm just a black and white kind of guy. There are gray area to be sure, but they are gray only because of my own ignorance. If I were smart enough to figure them out or had enough information to do so, I would undoubtedly assign them their properly black or white status. John W. Redelfs[EMAIL PROTECTED] = To me, clowns aren't funny. In fact, they're kind of scary. I've wondered where this started and I think it goes back to the time I went to the circus, and a clown killed my dad. --Jack Handy = All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?
Paul Osborne wrote: --- Maybe we don't even really exist. Would someone pinch me please? --- Sure, happy to-- --- Mij Ebaboc / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?
>That's exactly what I wrote: I *don't* believe the scriptures are secular >histories. If this was so, the apostles and prophets from Joseph Smith on would have told us so. everything I have ever heard from modern prophets teaches that the old history of the world is true and historical unless you choose to believe that our religion is based upon lies, fairy tales, and faith promoting nonsense. I suppose you might also think Moses was a myth because there is not one scrap of credible evidence of Moses or the Israelites in Egypt and I hope you don't choose to argue this point with me because you will loose big time. So beware! >That's your assumption, but it doesn't say anything about them in the Bible. >That's the problem with trying to deal with the Bible as a secular history -- it >doesn't fit. Since when does the Bible tell all? I suppose you also think the Book for Mormon is not a secular history too? You are marching on really shaky ground the kind of which I dare not go and the kind which if you werer to teach from the pulpit you would find yourself being yanked to the floor by the bishop. Also, maybe our whole religious experience is self induced with naturally occurring chemicals in our brains that make us wishy washy? Maybe the whole thing is a joke? Maybe we don't even really exist. Would someone pinch me please? Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] "Life Everlasting" Duane S. Crowther
Marc A. Schindler wrote: --- Just be careful: a lot of what Crowther wrote was personal speculation on his part. --- Shouldn't be much of a problem, because more than half the text consists of direct quotations--from personal journals and letters of those who experienced or spoke of death experiences, from Church authorities speaking directly of this subject, or directly from the scriptures. It is difficult for me to imagine how Crowther's almost incidental contributions can be reasonably regarded as "speculative". His narrative simply interweaves these textual sources. It might be compared with "survey of the literature" reports that are popular in academic research circles. Mostly a job of collating and summarizing, without much interpretive commentary. If there is anything sensational or speculative about the text, we would have to attribute it to the original sources, which from members of the Church, detailing their personal experiences. Perhaps it is true that such testimonies are too sacred to be presented openly for the criticism of irreverent skeptics. But for me, sharing these stories with those who actually experienced the events is an uplifting and edifying experience. --- Mij Ebaboc / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Guns, Germs and Steel
Yes, even the army's cleaned itself up ;-)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Larry Jackson:
> >Scientific wild- _ _ _ guess.
> >
> >There are other meanings, as well, but that's the primary
> >one in most common use.
>
> Paul Osborne:
> Ha ha ha ah. I didn't think you had in you Larry.
>
> ___
>
> Well, facts is facts, no? Besides, it's SNAFU that everyone
> usually gets wrong: Situation normal, all fouled up.
>
> (Just thought I'd clarify that, lest someone get all charterly
> on me or something.) [grin]
>
> Larry Jackson
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
> Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
>
> Only $9.95 per month!
>
> Visit www.juno.com
>
> /
> /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at ///
> /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///
> /
>
--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
The first duty of a university is to teach wisdom, not a trade; character, not
technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern world, but we dont want
a world of engineers. Sir Winston Churchill (1950)
Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.
/
/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at ///
/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///
/
${list_promo}
Re: [ZION] "Life Everlasting" Duane S. Crowther
Just be careful: a lot of what Crowther wrote was personal speculation on his
part.
Valerie Nielsen Williams wrote:
> Hey Zion:
> Just wanting to know if anyone has read "Life Everlasting" by
> Crowther, and if so, what do you think. It was recommended to me by a
> friend who knows that since Tom died, I've been devouring the words of
> prophets and scriptures to learn all I can about the Plan of Salvation,
> the Spirit World, and life after death.
> As I've perused it, some of it looks good, but some of it looks
> like sensationalism (near-death experiences etc.). I have my own
> feelings about NDE's ie; if you have one, it is a sacred experiece that
> should be kept that way.
> Anyway, it looks like an interesting study, but would like some
> feedback as well because, for the most part, I respect the opinions of
> the members of this list.
>
> your sis in Mishawaka, Indiana (as I watch in disgust as BC walks all
> over Notre Dame who should NEVER have worn the green jerseys)
> val ;-)
>
>
--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
The first duty of a university is to teach wisdom, not a trade; character, not
technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern world, but we dont want
a world of engineers. Sir Winston Churchill (1950)
Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.
/
/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at ///
/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///
/
${list_promo}
Re: [ZION] Full Text Library Access
I know I'm being "I-told-you-so-ish" again, (not to John, just in general) but some years ago, when I wrote a review for Sunstone of LauraMaery Gold's first "Mormons on the Internet" version I said that these freebie sites were not going to survive without a proper business model, and that meant either user pay (for content) or advertiser pay (for eyeballs). One of the two. I think one reason the dot com bubble burst was because people didn't understand the very fundamental nature of a business dealing: this for that (quid pro quo). You can't get something for nothing. What the most successful models, imo, like the Britannica, the Wall Street Journal and the Economist (and the Church News and FARMS, too, while we're at it) have done is provide a free site, but most of the good stuff is only available to subscribers. Eventually I predict most of these won't even issue dead-tree versions any more (like Meridian, the private LDS e-zine). So I think you're right. But it will take time for such a radical change to occur. Same with music, incidentally. The Indies will offer free stuff because they're after market share, but once they become established, like Kiss (who were one of the co-plaintiffs in the case against ... shoot, the name's escaped me. Not Gnutella, but the big one that preceeded them), they'll offer demos free, but the "album" material and "concert" material you'll have to pay for. Another model that a company I know of in Calgary is working on is called nanocentage. That's the principle of paying for what you use, kind of like a software licence. In theory, when you buy MS Office, say, you don't "own" anything -- you've merely paid for the right to use it. But suppose you wanted to use a real complex, high-end software package (a GIS system, say, or a medical image analysis package) but couldn't afford the thousands of dollars for even a single-seat licence? Well, you could pay for only what you actually use, say, a nanocent a second of server CPU time, and/or a nanocent per MB of disk space that you've borrowed while you do your thing. This Calgary company has a way to measure and bill that and they're trying to sell their technology to big content providers (actually, although I probably shouldn't say this, I think they'll end up being bought out by someone like AOL Time Warner, who'll incorporate their technology into their content provision.) Nice to see that the two jurisdictions with oil money are doing something for their citizens to keep them on the right side of the digital divide, though (in Alberta we're providing broadband to everyone in the province through an initiative called SuperNet). "John W. Redelfs" wrote: > I am very pleased with something that our small town public library is > doing. A couple of years ago, the state legislature authorized the > purchase of Ebsco access for all public library patrons in the > state. Ebsco is a huge database of newspaper stories, popular and > scholarly periodical articles, dissertations, and so forth. It is an > expensive service that most individuals could not afford on their own. Yet > the public library here in Ketchikan will give me the userid and password > for the asking. > > A couple of days ago I learned that the state and local libraries have > added to the access affording library patrons. I know have free access to > Electric Library, Net Library, the online World Book, and a service called > NoveList which is a huge database about fiction. > > All of these outfits cost big bucks to access. They are full text, behind > closed doors websites. I think it is just marvelous what the libraries > here in Alaska are doing for their patrons. > > For over a year, ever since the big dot com bubble burst I have heard that > free content on the web is a thing of the past. There is just no business > model for content providers to make enough to pay for their > operations. People simply will not pay for content, the pundits say. I > just don't believe it. People will pay for it even if they end up paying > taxes so that the libraries can offer it. For the last two centuries > libraries have been buying books so that their patrons could enjoy > something that they could not afford themselves. Apparently this is just > the way that libraries are adapting to a changing world. Now they are > buying online content that patrons could not afford. Cool, huh? > > Is this happening in other places, or is it just Alaska? If any of you > have online content provided by the local library, I would be interested in > hearing about it. What is being made available to you? > > John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] > === > Anytime I see something screech across a room and > latch onto someones neck, and the guy screams and > tries to get it off, I have to laugh, because what is that > thing. --Jack Handy > === > All my opinions are tentative
Re: [ZION] Guns, Germs and Steel
"John W. Redelfs" wrote:
> At 12:42 PM, Saturday, 11/2/02, Marc A. Schindler wrote:
> >The 1P don't say. It doesn't appear to be a concern for them. That could
> >be why all
> >the sciences are represented in the curriculum at BYU (in fact, BYU's
> >evolutionary
> >biologists are leading "cladists," a sub-specialty in the field). Also, I
> >don't
> >seem to see "all that disagreement" that you talk about. Science is forever
> >tentative -- it always changes. This is its nature. It's normal.
>
> Aw, c'mon now. Right here in Diamond's book he contradicts all those
> paleontologists who have presented evidence of human habitation in the
> Americas before the Clovis culture. Why can't scientists at least agree on
> that? He also points out that there is a difference of opinion among
> scientist whether or not the early American hunter-gatherers were
> responsible for the extinction of the large mammals that one inhabited the
> Americas. He says that the early Americans killed them all, and then
> admits that many scientist do not believe any such thing.
>
Exactly what I said. "Science is forever tentative -- it always changes."
Scientists *do* now believe that the Monteverdian culture (the one you're
referring to, the one found in Chile) pre-dates the Clovian culture, but
defenders of the Clovian culture as being first didn't give up without a fight.
>
> The orthodox view among the most highly respect paleontologists is that
> mankind arrived in the Americas by a series of successive waves of
> immigration over the Bering land bridge. He says that other highly
> respected scientists allow for the possibility that some of the first
> inhabitants of the Americas arrived here by boat as they followed the
> shoreline that rings the Pacific. Which is it? I can't believe that you
> would say that scientists don't disagree on anything, or that they don't do
> it much. They do it all the time, and it is commonplace.
>
Perhaps, instead of asking me just so you can pick holes in answers which I'm
presenting in an attempt to be helpful, you could check into some of Diamond's
recommended reading books.
>
> Part of the reason I turned away from science to religion is because I
> despaired of learning anything with any certainty when the foremost
> authorities in almost every field disagree with fellow scientists about
> really basic things. I have a real need for at least some questions to
> have conclusive answers. Otherwise, life is just a constantly changing
> dream bound by no laws and consequently all over the map. I know very
> little "for sure," but what little I do know I have learned from the
> scriptures, the modern prophets, and the testimony of the Holy Ghost.
>
It's always either/or, isn't it?
>
> John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
The first duty of a university is to teach wisdom, not a trade; character, not
technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern world, but we dont want
a world of engineers. Sir Winston Churchill (1950)
Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.
/
/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at ///
/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///
/
${list_promo}
Re: [ZION] Guns, Germs and Steel
He's making a huge assumption: that the reader understands that this is an Isaac
Asimov-level primer to a science, not a deep, technical textbook.
"John W. Redelfs" wrote:
> At 12:40 PM, Saturday, 11/2/02, Marc A. Schindler wrote:
> >That would be appropriate for a technical text, but Diamond's book was
> >meant as
> >an introduction for a lay audience. The scope of what he discusses is too
> >broad
> >for this kind of approach -- there would simply be too many footnotes.
> >That's why
> >authors who find themselves in this situation give recommended reading
> >lists so
> >people can zero in on areas of interest and do further research. Our RS/PH
> >manuals use footnotes because they are explicitly teaching from the
> >teachings of
> >an individual. Diamond isn't doing that -- he's painting with a much broader
> >brush. If you are uncomfortable with his conclusions, check out the
> >recommended
> >reading and do further reading to see if he's talking through his hat or not.
>
> I am actually enjoying the book quite a lot. Most of it makes assumptions
> that I think are false, but for some reason that doesn't really detract
> from my enjoyment. I do think that
> Diamond is making an awful lot of assumptions, so many that the whole book
> seems like one big assumption. At least half the book is stuff that
> Diamond couldn't possibly know. Where is the line between fiction and
> nonfiction? I think he really comes close to that line.
>
> John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ===
> "It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to
> laugh at that man." --Jack Handy
> ===
> All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR
>
> /
> /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at ///
> /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///
> /
>
--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
The first duty of a university is to teach wisdom, not a trade; character, not
technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern world, but we dont want
a world of engineers. Sir Winston Churchill (1950)
Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.
/
/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at ///
/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///
/
${list_promo}
Re: [ZION] Guns, Germs and Steel
"John W. Redelfs" wrote:
> At 12:37 PM, Saturday, 11/2/02, Marc A. Schindler wrote:
> >I don't believe it is merely a (secular) history book -- I think it's more
> >profound
> >than that. If it's truly a secular history of "God's dealings [with] man
> >since the
> >first man down to the time of Moses" why a) does it show signs of having been
> >redacted by later editors; and b) why doesn't it tell us anything about,
> >say, the
> >Chinese?
>
> Marc, I can't believe that you wrote this. Think it through again. How
> could a history be "secular" if it is a record of God's dealings with
> man?
That's exactly what I wrote: I *don't* believe the scriptures are secular
histories.
> As for the Chinese, I think that much of the Old Testament is devoted
> to teachings that apply to all mankind. I assume that includes the Chinese
> too.
>
That's your assumption, but it doesn't say anything about them in the Bible.
That's the problem with trying to deal with the Bible as a secular history -- it
doesn't fit.
>
> John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
The first duty of a university is to teach wisdom, not a trade; character, not
technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern world, but we dont want
a world of engineers. Sir Winston Churchill (1950)
Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.
/
/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at ///
/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///
/
${list_promo}
[ZION] Modern Iraq: from the ashes of the Ottoman Empire
New on my website: a Primer on the Creation of an Artificial
post-Colonial Nation-state
Excerpt from Paris 1919, by Margaret MacMillan (Toronto, Random House,
2002); this excerpt from the 30/10/02 issue of The National Post.
Gertrude Bell, an historian and archaeologist, was the first British
spy and the only woman to play a key role in the conference. Thin,
intense and chain-smoking, she loved the silence and solitude of the
desert. She foresaw a disaster in the Middle East but felt powerless to
stop it.
The Paris Peace Conference of 1919 tried to pick up the pieces after the
First World War, disposing of many parts of the world with a varying
effectiveness vividly described by Margaret MacMillan in her new book,
Paris 1919. The Conference was the closest thing there has ever been to
a world government.
Halfway through the war, in 1916, Britain and France made a somewhat
fanciful agreement on how they would divide up the huge Ottoman Empire,
not really expecting to get the chance to do so. At the time, they were
by no means sure they would win the war.
Then in 1918, the Ottoman Turks did lose their empire, and the Allies
were faced with a. reality they had not seriously considered. Macmillan
shows how several modern countries were born from their improvisations.
Before the Peace Conference, for example, there had never been such a
state as Iraq.
continued at: http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/D/Iraq_Paris.htm
--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
The first duty of a university is to teach wisdom, not a trade;
character, not technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern
world, but we dont want a world of engineers. Sir Winston Churchill
(1950)
Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the
authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author
may be associated.
/
/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at ///
/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///
/
${list_promo}
RE: [ZION] "Life Everlasting" Duane S. Crowther
Crowthers Life Everlasting is a genuine delight to me. Thanks for raising it to my attention. I thought it was a wonderful book when I first read it, more than thirty years ago. On reexamination, I find it to be even more relevant and edifying than the first view. I have in the interim period had cause to reflect on many of the issues Crowther examines. The insight afforded is significant. And, to those of us with serious concerns about loved ones gone before, it is a great comfort to have this review and compilation of so much good LDS-oriented information on that subject. Of course, as with other proper works in this genre, this book does not presume to be authoritative. Crowther provides his own disclaimer in the introduction. Brigham Young taught that When any man publishes or preaches his peculiar views he should not say they are the views of the Church. This book presents my views in the sense that they are based on the evidence available. As that evidence grows, my views grow and I grow. I write as an individual and not as an official spokesman for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and the concepts expressed herein are not official statements of Latter-day Saint doctrine. Undoubtedly the teachings expressed herein sometimes exceed in scope the Churchs doctrines on the future life. Crowther further states: The evidence is historical, not clinical. The chemist or physicist will never hold the key to life after death unless it is revealed to them. That key lies in the accounts of those who have ventured into the spirit realm and then returned. Its meaning is found in the realm of religion, not of science. The things of the spirit are spiritually discerned. Currently there is some legitimate concern about popular ideas regarding near death experiences. We are well advised to be conservative in our approach to this idea, particularly in regard to sources that sensationalize and exploit our natural interest in the subject. What distinguishes Crowthers work is the quality of his references and sources. He carefully documents his ideas using scriptures and authoritative quotes from Church leaders. These actually constitute the bulk of the text. I especially appreciated his end-of-chapter summaries for their clarity in outlining important principles and ideas. Much of what is valuable in Crowthers book is in the collected testimonies of many LDS members who share their own experiences with regard to death, and touching the spirit world. Sharing of testimonies is an important principle in the Church. Our understanding is that it affords opportunity for the Holy Ghost to bear witness to our souls, and thereby enlighten our minds. In this troubled world, a spiritual witness is an invaluable source of faith. Crowthers dependence on citing personal testimonies is a strength, not a flaw. We cannot presume to dismiss the collective witness of so many individuals, particularly when many of the sources are well-respected figures in Church history. As Crowther states in his disclaimer, this is historical evidence, not a clinical study. In a cynical, skeptical world where such stories are almost inevitably associated with some kind of fraudulent misrepresentation or scam, Crowthers book projects a pure white pillar of light. It suggests some good answers to questions that are vitally important to certain of us. --- Mij Ebaboc / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
